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It’s WILD What This Atheist Demands As Proof || SLP628 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: What would make you believe that the Bible is the word of God, Sam Harris?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: He says this.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of book would this compassionate, omniscient mathematician have written us if he wanted to guide us?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And surely he would have put something in there.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Just one page of mathematics.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: You want one theoretical physics proof.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus just has to say it.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's out there preaching, and he's like, by the way, you won't get this for a while, but E equals M C squared.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: You were really competitive, right?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: You really wanted the most inspiring and onward-leading document.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: You said, like, maybe you'd tell a story where, hypothetically, the omniscient mind came down to earth and died on a cross and opened the light.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, would that be inspiring enough?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not enough.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_04: Journalist and believer Ross Daltit is talking to atheist Sam Harris about what would make him believe.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: They get onto the subject of the Bible.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: When you j when you think of how good a book would be if it were written by an omniscient mind that had an omniscient and compassionate mind, uh it's you know it's trivially easy to see how much better any one of our books is.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, look, look at that.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, yes, although would our minds be able to see how good it was?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Someone encountered a modernist opera, and we'd be like, oh, well, but you'd want to want the most inspiring and onward-leading document.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The most inspiring and onward-leading document.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: That's what the Bible would have to be if it was the Word of God, the most inspiring and onward-leading document.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: To which Ross Dalphit says this.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you were really compassionate, right, and you really wanted people to get it right, you'd say, I mean, so like for instance, I mean, this is something you'd say.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So like maybe you'd tell a story where hypothetically the omniscient mind came down to earth and participated in the world.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would that be would that be inspiring enough?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: If we're going to be able to do that, you want more inspiration.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: So that's not enough.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: So Sam first says it needs to be inspiring and onward leading.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_04: Ross Douthit says this is the greatest story ever told, and I think it is unimprovable as an inspiring story because you've got the highest figure descend to the deepest depth to make the greatest sacrifice for the most number of people in order to have the greatest impact on all the world for all time.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: The dimensions of the Christian story as laid out in the Bible are unimprovingly inspiring.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: So challenge has been laid down, challenge has been accepted by Ross Daltet, and he's like, yes, okay, the Bible actually does tell a technically unimprovable story of maximal inspiration.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: I think Ross Daltit has done a great job of pointing to the fact that what Sam Harris has demanded of the Bible, the Bible does in fact offer.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: But notice how Sam Harris then changes the goalposts.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So for instance, in your book, you you draw the uh this is sort of where we're going here.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: You like one point you make is that the mathematics, the utility of mathematics, right, the scientific utility of mathematics, the fact that math not only can help us describe what we empirically discover about nature, but can can uh indicate areas in the darkness that we we hadn't yet fathomed.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And lo and behold, we discover that some there's something in the structure of equations that's predicting physical reality.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And how is how is it that we live in a universe where this thing that we just these these apes invented is a key that unlocks these doors that didn't even exist, right?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So surely this is evidence that this that this whole thing is designed by a yet greater mathematician on some level, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if if you want to see you you have to play tennis here with the net, right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you're want if you want to hold that possible truth in view, which would be fine, right?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's maybe suggestive of something, right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Then you have to say, well, what kind of book would this compassionate, omniscient mathematician have written us if he wanted to guide us?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And surely he would have put something in there that was one just one page of mathematics that would have uh uh inspired, or even now, you know, 2,000 years later, would have inspired human mathematicians to to one, one, recognize that they live in a universe that was so designed, but two, continue to deepen their understanding of it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that would be so easy to have done, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean David Hilbert.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: You want you one you want one pro theoretical physics proof encoded in coded.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be encoded.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus just has to say it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's out there preaching and he's like, by the way, you won't get this for a while, but E equals M C squared.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you want.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Something that no denizent of the first century could have said, proving the the uh the omniscient or supernatural origin of the text.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: So notice originally the goalposts are the Bible needs to tell an inspiring and forward-looking documents.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Ross Daltet says it is the most inspiring document.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: Sam Harris says, oh no, that story, I'm not really talking about a story, I'm talking about a mathematical proof that is in Ross Daltit's understanding a little bit like Jesus saying, you won't get this for a while, but E equals MC squared, which would be profoundly non-useful and non-forward-looking, utterly uninspiring to the vast majority of human beings around the world and down through history, and even today, uninspiring and not forward-looking for the majority of people reading such a document, but it would satisfy Sam Harris.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: It would satisfy Sam Harris.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: It wouldn't satisfy the great majority of human beings, but that's the test that Sam Harris wants if the Bible is to be considered the word of God.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_04: I think Ross Daltett is doing a great job.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: What do you think?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Surely you want that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is fair.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that I think that any conception of a God who cares about human beings has to accept that for whatever reason this God also wants to allow for the possibility of you, Sam Harris, not believing in him.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I agree.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine a world that's a good example.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can think of a thousand others where God makes it just 10% easier for me to argue to you that he exists.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: You swap out a couple of lines about sacrificing goats and you swap in a big thing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right, you don't want the sacrifice of goats.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when you approach the Bible expecting it to give you a statement of modern physics or mathematics that would be unintelligible to the vast majority of humanity, when you come and expect the Bible to give you that, you will be disappointed in Ross Dalt that says, Yeah, God seems to have made a choice that he will disappoint the Sam Harris of this world, but actually he will satisfy the greater majority of humans who have in this book found a story of incredible inspiration and progress.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: If your argument is there are things that God could have put in, could could have done or said while he was on earth as Jesus Christ that would have made full belief easier, I'm not going to argue with you.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would suggest that you should think not even just easier.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you have gone quite deep into certain worlds of fundamentalist religion where you are always saying, like, well, you know, the fundamentalists say this, you know, this holy book is perfect in every way, and yet this holy book seems to have been written by some people in, you know, first century Judea, doesn't seem that perfect to me.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that in the case of the New Testament, and I think it's true of the Old Testament as well, the Christian claim is that these books are divine inspiration one is different from sort of pure divine dictation.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Bible is not presented to people, right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're seeing, what the what Christians think you're seeing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are a bunch of human beings wrestling with the appearance and revelation of God on earth.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore the books do look like first-person memoirs rather than, again, this sort of crystalline, crystalline form.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, the f if this is how God operates, then he is always leaving the door open for you, Sam Harris, to say, it's too much goat, too many goats here, man.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't get there.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that that is fair.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: I really like Rose Death.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: There's too many goats here, man, I can't get there.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it but again, it could even be sharpened up to the point where any compost mentist person would believe thereafter.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: It just it could be.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think for reasons having to do with the nature of human freedom, but God has not placed us in a system where every reasonable person has to look at the evidence and believe in him.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is true.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: However, it is also the case that, you know, the history of the the civilization inspired by the books that have too many goats and you know sheep and whatever in them has done a pretty credible job of yielding up the scientific minds that have done a lot of the work of unlocking the mystery of the cosmos.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, and so on, all show up in societies steeped in the New Testament, the Old Testament, and everything in between.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So at the very least, maybe that's like a little indicator light for you.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just a flashing light, not a not a certain proof, but like here, here you go, Sam, here's a breadcrumb to pull you to pull you towards the truth.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: It was people of the book, it was people of scripture, Christians at Christian universities for Christian reasons, who studied the world in the same way that had they had been studying the text, and who saw the world as a second book of revelation from God.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: We have the book of God, which is scripture, we also have the book of the world, which is nature, and it was Christians for Christian reasons who studied nature in ways informed by the book that have given us the modern scientific revolution.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: But having said that, Ross Doutha wants us to know.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I look as a as an apologist for the existence of God, which I do think is extremely likely, I often think to myself, yeah, you know, it could be it could be a 20% 20% easier and uh would be nice if, you know.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't you wouldn't you have found if you had found uh just imagine the the the Dead Sea Scrolls, right?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: If if those uh uh what was that, the forties they were discovered, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine imagine that find, and you pull out these um these scrolls and they get patiently translated.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the law right it's the laws of it's it's Einstein's physics right there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's quantum theory.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's straight it's straight quantum theory.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's Claude Shannon's information theory, it's sure it's but on the other hand, on the other hand, you could very easily imagine a cosmos where you and I were having a debate as an atheist and a believer, and you said to me, well, if only this universe were organized by pellucidly clear and amazing mathematical laws, if we only had that, then then I'd concede that there's probably a God.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yet in this universe we have those.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, well, that's not enough.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want it written in the Dead Sea Square.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, right.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, because I actually don't I don't think that uh I'm not granting you that the p the the strange utility of mathematics suggests that there was a mathematical mind designed in the universe.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think there are it's open to many other interpretations than that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying that if you're going to say that, then you should you should have also uh required really that there be some shred of that intelligence in the the one document you're using to organize that worldview.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And why pick I mean why pick a document that doesn't have any of that?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell Some shred of that intelligence and why pick a document that doesn't have any of that?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Sam Harris, the the wisdom that has informed our world, the wisdom that has informed Sam Harris's world, is absolutely dripping from every page of the Bible.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: At the center of the human story stands a man who doesn't just claim to be one more person from this world.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_04: He keeps saying he is our maker and he has come in person.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: We want to immerse you in another way of seeing and to show you a different vision for God, the world, and you.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: Without assuming any prior knowledge, we'll be looking specifically at the vision for life that Jesus gives us.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: The meaning of life is to know the love of this God.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: This is the beating heart of the Christian story.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want in on this?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: The three invite you in.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: The two determine the world.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: Be one with the Son of God.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Now, Ross Daufitt and myself for what it's worth concede that Jesus did not say E equals M C squared in the middle of the Sermon on the Mount.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: But here is Peter J.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: Williams talking about the moral genius of Jesus.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, this moral genius that has been recorded in the scriptures and that has utterly shaped the world.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: It has utterly shaped Sam Harris's world, and it has utterly shaped your world.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um he talks about three geniuses of the modern day, Mahatma Gandhi, and he talks about uh Barack Obama and he talks about Elon Musk and the genius of Jesus and how these three modern geniuses have looked back to the genius of Jesus and benefited from it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I put it to you that all three of these are far more important than E equals M C squared.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: Let's have a look at Peter Williams as he takes us through it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start with Jesus' memes, and I want to show you three remarkable um uh people, uh, one of whom Mahatma Gandhi, who wrote about the saying of Jesus, render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know that unto God the things that are gods.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: People are trying to trick Jesus and uh they've got either you should pay taxes to the Romans, then you're a sellout to the Romans.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's that that's the idea, or you deny that you should pay taxes to the Romans, and then you you you you're a revolutionary and you should be arrested.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: So how can Jesus possibly respond to this?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: And of course he asks to be shown a coin and he says whose head, whose inscription is on this, and they say, Caesar's.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so he says, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the thing that are gods.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a deeper level at this, because if Caesar's head is on the coin, if his image is on the coin, whose image is on humans?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: God's image is on humans.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Render to God the things that are gods, you give everything.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: And people have marveled at this, and here is Mahatma Gandhi marvelling at this amazing saying, and that's just one thing attributed to Jesus.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: So give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's combines the moral genius of seeing human beings as the image of God, which is something that the Bible brings to the world on page one of the scriptures, is perhaps the most significant forward-looking inspirational doctrine that has shaped your world, that human beings are in the image of God.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus takes that, and he also adds onto that a layer of and give to Caesar what is Caesar's image, while you give to God what is God's image.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: You give yourself to God, but you can give taxes to the state, and there is a there is a separation between church and state.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: This morally is a genius idea, and it's right there in scripture from the first page of the Bible and then in the teaching of the gospels.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: Next, Peter Williams talks about Barack Obama and what Barack Obama has found from Jesus.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Here's another one.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Remarkably successful man, most powerful man in uh uh in the planet at one stage, Barack Obama summarising uh his ethic.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, treat the people in the way you want to be treated, and if you're not doing that, and if society is not respecting that basic principle, then we're going backwards instead of going forwards.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now that's great.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Where's he getting that from?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Of course he's getting that from Jesus.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: To do unto others what you'd have them do to you is called the golden rule.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: The first person to articulate the positive golden rule in history, as far as we can sell, searching around literature is Jesus.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's genius to come up with something that people um it just uh affects society so much, it's uh such a great rule.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: There is moral genius here, there is civilization building genius here, and it goes back to the Bronze Age, and it goes back to goat herders.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: It goes back to a penniless preacher shooting his mouth off in his distinctively northern accent, and the genius that has made your world is dripping from the lips of this untutored preacher.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: There is a very surprising genius in the Bible, there's a very surprising genius to Jesus.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: Thirdly, Peter Williams talks about Elon Musk.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Let's have a look.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: A different character, but again, someone very successful.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Elon Musk.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: The limbic instinct for vengeance is incredibly strong.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's why turn the other cheek is such a powerful idea.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now I have no idea whether Mr.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Musk knows where that idea comes from, but we know that that idea comes straight from Jesus Christ.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: So Jesus Christ has loads of brilliant ideas that some of the most successful and influential people on the planet are finding.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not just that they're getting one from one philosopher and another from another philosopher.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's the fact that Jesus Christ came up with them all, and there's quite a few I haven't even talked about, like judge not that you be not judged, and so on.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus holds the records on meme creation, but not just things that people say that go viral, but really helpful things.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Really amazing things, really profound, insightful things, things that cut to the core of human character.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's the kind of genius we're talking about when we're talking about Jesus, and it is far superior to and far more helpful than E equals M C squared.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: Let's return to Ross Dalthert and Sam Harris.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's my Again, I I think I would just stress and I I won't just that I do not think that Christians or any religious believers are obligated to see their sacred scriptures as the only document that organizes or the only theory that organizes their worldview.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it might be the worldview.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: The re the revelation the revelation in the New Testament is about the kind of it's it's about salvation and questions related to that, but it's also about the kind of people that God wants us to be.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think you can draw from the fact that it includes moral codes and not the laws of physics that God does care more.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: God cares more about what kind of person you are than how fully you understand the secrets of the cosmos.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, that that is an implication you do have to draw if you are a Christian.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, indeed.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: God is more interested in truths like you are in the image of God, and church and state are separated and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and forgive your enemies and turn the other cheek.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_04: He is far more interested in that than he is in quantum mechanics and string theory.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: And Sam Harris seems to be wanting to hold the God of the Bible to standards that are simply inappropriate to apply to the Bible.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'll finish with Matthew 11, verse 25.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned, and reveal them to little children.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, Father, for this is what you are pleased to do.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: All things have been committed to me by my Father.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: And then Jesus says, Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: There were many people in Jesus' day who wanted to stand at a distance and fold their arms and say, No, Jesus doesn't quite jump through the hoops that I have for him.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: But then there were the little children who would come to Jesus and find in him the secret of the cosmos opened out.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: That at the heart of the universe there is this father-son union, this father-son family secret.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: But Jesus has come to reveal his father to the world if you come to him in that family way, like a little child.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: And to such people, Jesus says, Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm going to pray for Sam Harris to know that rest, that childlike trust.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: I pray that you know it too.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know Jesus?
• 20:56
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• 20:58
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• 21:00
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• 21:04
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• 21:07
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• 21:10
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• 21:14
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• 21:15
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• 21:17
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• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: God bless.