Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE2:E3 - Sukkot - Optimum Vulnerability

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REALLY JEWISH SE2:E3 - Sukkot - Optimum Vulnerability · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: my father is a Khazan. And people used to ask him, I remember it, he did not just from stories, but people used to ask him, Khazan Dardashti, like, how do you do it? Like how on Yom Kippur do you fast for twenty-five hours, no food, no water, and you sing this way, like even into Ne'ilah and he would say. I'm plugged into the source. And I feel it, honestly, Oliver. Like I feel that. I feel, I really feel when people, first of all, say, like, wow, that was incredible. And how did you do it? And how do you, how are you still standing? And I'm just like, I'm, I feel plugged into the source. and and it's very relevant to to Sukkot. Oliver Joseph: And it's all of the things that you said, but it's like it's this very like visceral experience of being back out in the world again. It's not like, you know, you're released, go home after Yom Kippur, you know, there's always that done about in your community, but there's always this moment specifically at the end of Yom Kippur where the community is like literally released because, you know, in our community you say the last service and closes. That's the last service, the locking of the gates, and then the arc closes and then you quickly da da da da say the evening Marv service, which is for the weekday, and then the community is literally released. So like there's this very visceral feeling and everybody's trying to get home without like trampling The person they've been buffering with to get out of the gate, home, to break their fast and eat. But we're not just released, we're released into ultimately into the sukkah. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: if you are not inviting guests into your house on Sukkot and sharing a meal with them or donating right, to people who need food, also when you're preparing your own food for your guests and for your family on Sukkot, then it's not actually a celebration of the holiday and for God. It's a celebration of your stomach. Oliver Joseph: Welcome to our Really Jewish podcast. welcome to our conversation about what it is to be Really Jewish 2026. We are just celebrating a brand new year, Shana tovah , to those who are celebrating a happy and sweet new year for all of our listeners. we are back for another episode. If you're here for the first time, Bruchim Ha'Bai'im, welcome. If you're back for another listen, really nice to have you back. I've received some fantastic feedback over the last few days and few weeks on our new listeners. loads of you tuning in for one podcast or two, connected by way of another rabbi or another teacher, and hopefully staying along for the ride. This week we have just wrapped up a period of celebration, marking, repentance, reflection, Teshuvah The opportunity to return and repent and consider our deeds for the year gone past and the year ahead. That's what the Jewish calendar looks like now. We've just closed where I'm recording now, the ten days of repentance, which is a period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, between the Jewish New Year and the Day of Repentance, exactly ten days between the first of Tishrei and the 10th in the Jewish month. and now we are entering into Sukkot, and it's a really fascinating transition period between the two places. If you want a bit more information on Rosh Hashanah on Yom Kippur, on the beginning of the year, we had a great episode with Yair Eldan, my colleague from Jerusalem, and with Sarah- Beth Neville, who was recording from Seattle. If my memory serves me correctly, they are both great episodes and the beginning of our new second season. You can also go back through all. All of the 27 episodes of our first season with some really fantastic guests, particularly towards the end of the season because the guests just keep on getting better and better. And we also have colleagues, friends who are coming back for a second time now, which is absolutely fantastic. We have an episode this week with Rabbi Michelle Dardashti, all the way from Brooklyn, in New York. We're talking Sukkot, Optimum Vulnerability. Rabbi Dardashti is the Kane Street Rabbi, which is a really cool old synagogue. I think she said in the episode 170 years old. synagogue where she's really bought vitality new life to quite a historic Masorti conservative synagogue in Brooklyn. I actually had the pleasure of visiting there I think last year and taught there with one of her colleagues, which was an absolutely fantastic experience meeting the community and seeing a bit of Jewish life there. she was previously a Hillel chaplain on Providence, Rhode Island. and she's a fantastic person. Somebody I know from Jerusalem when we were both studying there, and somebody whose journey I followed a little bit over the last years. She is fascinating a rabbi and particularly a part of her story which we will look to. Is that she comes from Persian Iranian heritage and a line of musicians who her father was a cantor and her grandfather was famous musician in Iran before they all left. Welcome to Really Jewish. This is where we examine what it is to be Jewish and a little bit of the highs and lows of our story. And particularly at this time, what it means to be Jewish at time of Sukkot during the Chagim. We are kind of entering, I guess, the halfway mark of the Jewish festivals. And part of the Really Jewish podcast is to understand a little bit about what is happening in Jewish community during this time and where these themes and aspects of holidays may take us. Welcome to our Really Jewish podcast with Rabbi Michelle Didash Dardashti, and welcome to Really Jewish. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti it's so nice to have you here. You're we've known each other for ages. You're the Kane Street Rabbi. You're a cool Do you say that, America? You are one of the coolest people I know. god. Now I'm Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: If you're like really cool, you wouldn't say that, I think. Oliver Joseph: no, it's got going bad already. You're the last years at Kane Street, it's a cool show I actually had the opportunity to visit I think a year ago. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: So nice. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: in kind of the middle of winter and it's kind of feels a bit like a doomy up synagogue. you've come there as a rabbi, transformed the place in many different ways with your passion and your capacity and your I don't know creativity. you're you trained in New York, trained at JTS. You're still in New York. a fascinating Bible story that I'd love to visit a little bit in the podcast is your grandfather was a famous singer in Iran Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: and your parents were both are both musicians and you grew up like in this really wild and wonderful musical family. Of which there's a podcast about, so I'm gonna mention that in full in a little bit. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Mm. Oliver Joseph: But welcome to our podcast, Rabbi Daradashti. It's fabulous to have have you. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I knew you as Ollie, so I'm gonna figure out what to call you on this podcast. from many moons ago. But yeah, my folks, we were we grew up in a in like the Jewish Von Trapp family. I would love for everyone to to check out the podcast that my sisters made. I would have loved to have been making it with them. I was supposed to, but I took this job right at the time that they started getting cooking on that. I was I came from Brown. I was actually at Brown University. For nine years before this in Providence, as the Associate University Chaplain at Brown and the Rabbi at the Brown Riz D. Halal, which was incredible. Loved raising my kids there. but it's been such a an amazing thing to come to Brooklyn and see what interesting and interested people live here and and get to be their rabbi. It's been a huge honor. Oliver Joseph: And the proof is in the pudding, the stained glass windows behind you kind of give you a little bit of a taste of Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: Kane Street because it's this really old building, if I could say that as an outsider travelling from the UK, it's got kind of a bit of a churchy gothic kind of a vibe that we in the UK don't really find outside of in necessarily in the Jewish community, it's a wonderful building it's must go on. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: It's actually the school was actually built as a Dutch Reformed church. And this building was a Dutch Reformed church. And actually, as a result, our Aron Kodesh is on the south wall. And we're right now undergoing a renovation of this 171-year-old building to have it face east. We're moving the Aron, we're taking out the pews. it's a big, big deal. It's the biggest renovation project that King Street's ever undergone in its history, and it's a hundred and seventy-year history. And you know, it's a really storied past. It's the oldest, to my understanding, synagogue in Brooklyn that's still being used by its original Jewish community. And not only that, one of the things that I think we're we should be most famous for, I think is the thing I'm most proud of with regard to this community, is our musical history. It's kind of amazing that I come from this musical family and I get to be here because, you know, the melody for Shalom Aleichem that people know is just the traditional melody, what's that? Oliver Joseph: Shalom Aleichem Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah, it was written by Israel Goldfarb, Rabbi Israel Goldfarb of Kane Street Synagogue. He was the rabbi here for fifty years and he wrote Mad Props. Yeah, I I feel Oliver Joseph: That's a mad props. That's a mechus. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: I feel huge pride in that. And, you know, like a contemporary musical giant, Joey Weisenberg, was here for decades and still leads Yamim Noraim with me. We just finished a twenty-five hour Tour de Force together on Yom Kippur. He's still here every every own keyport with our community. It's pretty amazing. Oliver Joseph: So everybody should look up Rabbi Dardashti and Joey Weisenberg. in particular, I just love link that you showed me just before on Instagram that Lilith magazine did a little sketch of you in a high holiday outfit with two pieces of paper in your pocket, one which says Bishvili Ha'Olam Nivra and the other one says, I'm dust and ashes, and the second one. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah, yeah. Oliver Joseph: for me the world was created. This is a Hasidic legend that on Rosh Hashanah well maybe it maybe every day even that we should have in our pockets two pieces of paper which remind us both of our ultimate vulnerability and of the fact that the world was created for us. we've got so many different parts to get into. We're gonna we're gonna talk about Sukot today. we're talking about Sukot as optimum vulnerability and but before we get there Just tell us two words or a couple of sentences on why on earth you come to this work and why on earth you wanted to train to be a rabbi. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Two sentences on that. Well Oliver Joseph: I mean not l Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: I love Judaism. I love Judaism and the Judaism that I was raised with in my home was meta-denominational and musical and global and engaged with the world in a way that the suburban synagogues that brought Judaism to me and my generation officially did not. I always loved Judaism, but I didn't love the synagogues. Even though my father was the Khazan and I loved his voice, I wasn't always I didn't really feel like it was always my Judaism. And I wanted to bring that actually. I wanted to bring the sort of very again global. I think when I spent my year in Israel as a junior in college, I finally understood why my Judaism never felt like it it fit. I became friends with Jews from all over the world, really close friends with this group of Italian Jews and Jews from everywhere. Ultimately, I married a nice Jewish boy from Sydney, Australia. I spent time living in Uruguay, working in the Jewish community. My Judaism is global. And I probably couldn't have put words to it then, but it that's it. I wanted to be able to offer what I didn't exactly have in synagogues. And I also part of my story of why I'm a rabbi has to do with the fact that I was living in Israel for a number of years and I had enrolled in law school, I'd applied to law school and enrolled and I deferred to do a Durout fellowship and deferred again 'cause I got engaged to an Australian and ultimately trying to decide like, are we living here? Where what are we doing? And it became clear that for a number of reasons we should go back to the States. That's a much longer than three sentence story. But it caused me to apply to rabbinical school in like April because I realized that I couldn't go back to America and simply be a lawyer. I shouldn't say simply, being a lawyer is an amazing thing. But I knew that I needed to like serve I needed to serve my people. If I was gonna not be in the Jewish state, I needed to be with Jews in a really profound way. So I think those are the two different ways to tell my story. One has to do with the fact of wanting to offer something. I had friends who were not religious my whole life, friends who were not Jewish. In college I was I became, you know, even more halakhically observant and yet lived with non Jews. I would constantly be asked, like, Why do you do this? Why do you do that? by, you know, Jewish friends who didn't do observances and by non Jews. And when I would explain it to people, they would say to me, Wow, like that sounds really compelling or Wow, if anyone had ever explained it to me that way, maybe I would have kept kosher or kept Shabbat. And so one is yeah, bring the beauty that I saw in Judaism forward. And two is to be able to be with my people while being in America, and not in Israel. I think there's a way in which when people ask me, you know, do you still think of making Aliyah? First of all I do all the time, but I also think I'm on Schlichut in a way. Like I think that this is where I can do the most for our people. here in America is a really profound privilege. Oliver Joseph: You're only allowed to take more than two sentences if you've got something cool to say. So your speaking. It's a wonderful to have part of your story. So you can take as many sentences as you want. Don't be limited by what I say on this podcast. Tell me a little, tell me like two words on some of that mishmash of identity. Because that's I like to think that really Jewish in power is conversation about like you say, like blended identities and complexity of holding different spaces in one's jewish identity. that's definitely Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: So I could go on and on. I first of all I think I spoke very quickly, so I hope that your podcast listeners are not dizzy from that. But you asked Oliver Joseph: No, no, they're good. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: sum up my Jewish story and path to the rabbinant quickly, so I spoke quickly. Oliver Joseph: aver the average Really Jewish listener is incredibly sharp, so they'll keep pace with whatever you gotta say. But tell us a little bit about our journey in just in terms of those stopping places, 'cause you've got Iran in the story, you've got like Persian music, specifically people have to listen to the Nightingale of Iran podcast that your sisters produce 'cause it's a cool and compelling story having listened to the episodes and like Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Thanks. Oliver Joseph: really like frames your family in this this kind of wild wild west of Persian culture and identity and complexity of identity, Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: not all of which we can capture here, but between those places, we've mentioned like three places at least, between Iran and between the US and between Israel. Like, how do you and you mention also like a meta-denomination, like how do you feed some of those parts into what it means in to be a rabbi in Kane Street today. Like, how does that shape you? Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Ugh, I love that question. I love that question. So You know, I have say that when I was sort of n realized that we probably needed to come back to New York. My husband's job was in New York for the nine years that we lived in Providence. And I sort of said it out loud and somebody reached out to me, somebody knew somebody, and they reached out to me about this job at Kane Street and were like, Will you apply for this job? And I was like wow, I d like don't know after nine years at a school, like do I wanna be the rabbi of a conservative synagogue? Like, yes, I'm a conservative rabbi, but I've been serving in this really meta denomination first of I worked at B'nai Jeshurun for two years in New York City and like that's you know, they're more a conservative synagogue than anything else, but they're not affiliated and I think they think of themselves as somewhat meta denominational. And then I worked on a campus, so I'm like conservative and I came here to visit. For my interview weekend, and I I gave them like unadulterated Dardashdi and they were like, yes. And so I was like, yes. So like that's just like the short version of how I found myself in a conservative show. These people are amazing. They are thoughtful, again, and interested and interesting. And you know, they asked me what was my ideal. Of a Shabbat morning Davening. And I said, you know, I would say we're Shabbat Davening. I didn't say just Shabbat morning. And I said, you know, my ideal Tfila experience, first of all, is not always the same. Like sometimes we have opportunities for a more contemplative service or a more musical service or a more pared-down, just straight Daven service. I wanna be cultivating a community of people who are liturgically literate. and have a capacity to hold a thick Jewish experience because I feel like tfila is really the international Jewish language, more than Hebrew in some way. I mean Hebrew for sure is, but you know, I remember going to shoals in other countries growing up or if we visited some place or and like the fact that I had been raised in a Salomon Shekhar school and had Tfila every day and knew the matbea Tfila meant, you know, and gone to a conservative synagogue meant that I could follow any matbeya. And you know, my grandparents built a synagogue in Rishon Lizon where I sat in the Mechitzah and it was a very, very traditional, very fast paced, very different liturgy, very different Nusach, I should say, but the liturgy was the same. At the core, and I feel like from a people herd perspective, more than from a halachic perspective. And from a Jewish literacy perspective, I want people to know the Tfila I want them to know it. Oliver Joseph: You want people to know the prayer service. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: I want people to know it. I want people to know the prayer service. I want them to know how to operate in a Siddur in in any country. Right? A Siddur that might be just in Hebrew. At the same time, I am all about accessibility. I want I want someone to be able to step into a service that might be all in Hebrew, but have something to hang on to. So when I lead services, I give Kavanot I say, you know, hey, like there's gonna be a lot of words, for instance, on the Amim Noraim, on the High Holy Days. But like these days are all about Teshuvah about returning. And so like just know that at any moment you can just close your eyes and do Teshuvah return to your breath. Like just, just return. You know, and know that in every breath we're accessing what we're here to do. Neshamah, Neshimah our soul, our breath, the same route. Like, we're here to tap into our souls and do soul work. So all you gotta do is breathe. And like there's a lot of yada dyeing, and all you gotta do is close your eyes and go with the music. So like, I try to lead a service. I try to lead enough different kinds of ways that the people who want just like, let's go, let's go. I want the traditional liturgy. And people who want to just feel the music or just feel the ruchaniyut, the spirituality of the experience can have what they need. And part of how I do that is actually our Friday night service and our Shabbat morning service are very different. our Friday night service is still pretty much a completely full matbea, but it's on guitar and kahon. and It's we sit in a circle a and it's so campy. And there are more than a hundred people that come every week on a regular week. And there some of the same people that come much about morning, where we also have more than a hundred people on a bar mitzvah week it's like, you know, two hundred something, two fifty, th whatever. but There's overlap, but there's also like people who are Friday night people and people who are Shabbat morning people and they appreciate each other. They're not like, Ugh, that Shabbat mor I would never go there or ugh that Friday night service, I think it's way too woo. Like people appreciate that what's going on at Kane Street is multi-denominational and has multiple entry points for different kinds of Jews seeking different things. But I would say that both Friday night and Shabbat morning are really interdenominational. I think it's another thing that people are loving about Kane Street. I would be remiss if I did not mention though that I'm really glad and proud that the conservative movement is where I was ordained, that JTS is where I was ordained. It was the right place for me to be ordained, even though I never necessarily imagine myself in a conservative synagogue because I believe in tradition and change. I like I'm a halachicli, I live by, you know, Jewish law and modernity, and love that. Oliver Joseph: So it's a fascinating space just observing here that Arguably the American conservative movement, which is our Masorti movement here in the UK and Europe, is more progressive. So there's like more room to maneuver Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Real. Oliver Joseph: in some space around instruments on Shabbat and in some synagogues' microphones and different things. And there's a tension there in terms of which way we go, which maybe maybe is the topic of another podcast, but not for today's topic. I'm gonna draw you in to the festival. So a few words of background from where the podcast is at and where we are in the Jewish calendar, which is to say, we've just been on this crazy journey. Like we've just done Ellul, which is the month before Rosh Hashanah, and we've just done Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, which is Yom Ha'Zikaron a day of like recalling everything that the year has been and somehow like beginning a technical process of accounting and personal examination, and then just Yesterday in when we were recording we did Yom Kippur which is a twenty-five hour fast day. It was pretty warm here. I don't know how it was in Brooklyn. It was pretty warm in London, so okay, Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Rainy. It's rainy, yeah. Oliver Joseph: okay. So it was like a little bit of a harder fast and finished later than it normally would. And then today I went to a colleague's house to help put up a couple of polls of his sukkar and then I came home to where we're living right now with my mother-in-law's house and put up her sukkah. And you know, I often have this like at some point during the week between Yom Kippur and Sukkot, some kind of like physical exhaustion, whether it's like my hands like a little bit crampy, having like done the physical build Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Okay. Oliver Joseph: of not a small sukkah in in our back garden. and that's the journey that we're on. Like that's the we've just done the Aseret Yamei Tshuvah the Ten Days of Repentance, and now straight into Sukkot. And I want to ask you just in your in your description what Sukkot is, but also just acknowledge that you're here and thanks for being like as a community rabbi, that's a also a tremendously pressure week in a pressure month. and I wanna hear a little bit about what your version of what Sukkot is and where you're landing right now. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: You know, my father, I mentioned my father is a Khazan. And if you listen to the podcast, you'll hear what an incredible voice he has. And people used to ask him, I remember it, he did not just from stories, but people used to ask him, Khazan Dardashti, like, how do you do it? Like how on Yom Kippur do you fast for twenty-five hours, no food, no water, and you sing this way, like even into Ne'ilah and he would say. I'm plugged into the source. And I feel it, honestly, Oliver. Like I feel that. I feel, I really feel when people, first of all, say, like, wow, that was incredible. And how did you do it? And how do you, how are you still standing? And I'm just like, I'm, I feel plugged into the source. and and it's very relevant to to Sukkot. Because Yom Kippur, you know, it's also really relevant to the ritual of Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur, first of all. in the temple, right? At the ten temple times. And the Torah talks about like the the service of the Kohen Gadol, but then in the temple times it really concretizes it. And we have it in the Seder Avodah in the Musaf service, you know, in the later half of the morning, which is usually an afternoon service, where the Kohen Gadol goes in and it's like the holiest person in the Jewish people on the holiest day, in the holiest place, and then in the holiest of the holy, like the holiest spot goes in. And performs this ritual of Yom Kippur that is the whole point of of the name of Yom Kippur, Kapara. We get like Titaru, we're purified, we're like we're forgiven, the slate is wiped clean. And then there's this song that you sing in some synagogues that's not in the Lev Shalem Mahzor that we use, but we always bring it in, Mareh Kohen, about you know, just like the the face of the Kohen Gadol glowing and Ahmed Man Hedar, like how amazing it was. when he would come out of the experience of performing the ritual of Yom Kippur. And honestly, like I didn't have to slaughter a goat. I didn't have to like, you know, anoint and do all the things. Although we do act that out, don't no jokes. Oliver Joseph: Without the goat. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: not the slaughter. Yeah, Mamash. exactly. but you know, I feel that Like I feel that feeling of the Kohen Gadol. This feeling of like, wow, of feeling Held and uplifted, and there is no way I could have just done that were it not for the help of the Hakadosh Baruch Hu the Blessed Holy One carrying me. And Yom Kippur like really all about praying for that. All this whole season is, by the way. Like we say this psalm, Psalm 27, throughout, from you know. the beginning of Ellul, the month that leads into Tishrei, the month that leads to Rosh Hashanah, and all the way through to the end of Sukkot, really, different holiday, Shemini Atzeret, the very end, you say this psalm that is that has as it's like sort of the line that people sing and repeat Achat Sh'alti Me'at Adonai Otah Avakesh Shivti B'Beit Adonai Kol One thing I ask of Hashem one thing I ask, just one thing. It's a big thing. One thing do I ask that I should feel like I'm dwelling, that I should dwell in your house. That I should feel held. Like that's the prayer that we're saying. That saying, like I'm not gonna, you know, it ends with, you know, ka'vei el-Adonai, Hazak ve'Emaytz Li'becha Ve'Kavei el-Adonai like hope in Hashem. And the whole Yamim Nora'im is forcing us to look our mortality in the eye, Yamim Noraim being high holy days, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Forcing us to stare our mortality in the eye, forcing us to stare the unknown and the fact that we do not know if we or people we love will be here with us next, Rosh Hashanah Kippur. We don't know. We don't know what shape we'll be in if we are alive. We don't know. And we recite that and we look that straight in the eye. and it's like a a practice of building up hope, faith, kavela donai, khazak via metslibecha, like and courage of heart. and building up the capacity to feel that we are shvim, veda dunai, dwelling, sitting in the house of God and and being held such that when we come out of the cocoon that is like the s literally the sanctuary space, we come out of these intense days of introspection. And then especially Yum Kippur, we're like almost other than when we're sleeping. We are in shul. We are like we are being held by the sanctuary, by the community, by the movement of the davening and the singing. And like we are our synagogue was like we were rocking. And then it's like it's all a practice such that you can still feel that. You can feel the embrace of the Bait Knesset, of the the Knesset Israel, of the community of Israel, of the Tfila, of the prayer when those are not there. And that's too called. Because Sukkut says to us on so many levels and in so many ways. Go practice in real life. Oliver Joseph: Right. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Like, go practice your faith amidst the elements. Oliver Joseph: so it's the interesting part is it's messy. Like the bit that I love anyway, I listen, there are there are some just in terms of the the practice of sukkot, like there are there are quite a lot of people in the Jewish world who like do the ktang and it's there's no judgment of it because it's the tuk keng and the sukah like pops up and you go click click click click click click and the sukkah kind of comes together and and there are different variants of it. I'm just kind of describing the regular practice because I don't want the listener to kind of have illusions about the bit that I'm gonna say next, but there's a version of Sukkot where you kind of take the kind of ready-made poles, like picture your like deck chair or your like beach hut and you ping all the pings together and then you put the the natural stuff on top so you put your skach Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah, yeah. Oliver Joseph: on top. That that's one version of Sukkot And yeah, I mean you you'll probably know this because we've known each other for quite a long time, but that's not really my version of Sukkot. I like building things. And but the building things is always messy. So like this year, I was like I said at the beginning, like I was and we're at our mother-in-law's house, and I'm getting the sukkah out from underneath the house, and it's like a dusty little corner, and there's like, you know, like cobwebs and this, and then I gotta clean it off, and then I gotta work out my brother-in-law packed it away last year, and I gotta work out how to piece it back together, and I never put the sucker up again. I've never put the sukkah up before, so it's like quite stressful to work out how it comes together. I Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: I and and the price is always like a tiny bit stressful. And there's like, you know, if anybody's working, which like like you I am, like there's kind of normally like one day or like half a day or like less than half a day to actually put it together when you look at your schedule for the time in between Yom Kippur, which was yesterday, Monday, and when the hug starts, which is Friday night. So like it's there's a pressure zone. But the interesting thing I always love and find about Sukkah is that you really are like back in The mix, like back in the mess of it, like Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur and Yom Kippur in particular, like you said, is so much in your head and so much about the words that you say and like you said, like exactly Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: as you described, like the community you're in and the space that you create, whether it you know, for the listener, the diverse listener, whether it's in synagogue, whether it's not in synagogue, whether it's at the learning session that I run, not in synagogue on conduit, like all the different places you might find yourself on on Yom Kippur in particular, it's not there. It's not there. It's out, like you said, in the wild world, and it's not in the security and the sanctity of your own home. You know, for those God willing who Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: have safe and stable home, it's it's Davka the Hebrew word, it's opposite, outside in this kind of mix of nature and specifically underneath this like natural structure, which is like the leaves which is the core the schach. The shach is the key part of the sukkah like the only really crucial part of the sukkah that the roof should be formed of some natural filaments, some like natural like basically cut leaves, which shelter and shade us. And it's all of the things that you said, but it's like it's this very like visceral experience of being back out in the world again. It's not like, you know, you're released, go home after Yom Kippur, you know, there's always that done about in your community, but there's always this moment specifically at the end of Yom Kippur where the community is like literally released because, you know, in our community you say the last service and closes. That's the last service, the locking of the gates, and then the arc closes and then you quickly da da da da say the evening Marv service, which is for the weekday, and then the community is literally released. So like there's this very visceral feeling and everybody's trying to get home without like trampling The person they've been buffering with to get out of the gate, home, to break their fast and eat. But we're not just released, we're released into ultimately into the sukkah. me, my go on. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: First of all, my god, first of all, that echoed that sentence that you said just echoes like Bihlal, the Jewish release story. Because we don't say schlachetami only. We Oliver Joseph: Right. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: don't just say let my people go. We say, Let my people go ve' Avduni that they may serve me. So actually, like part of the physical nature of Sukkot is that it's okay. Like you said it, you said you want to be different, you banged your chest for twenty-five hours. Show me. Like let vyav duni and get get to work. Put the first nail in. That's the mitzvah, it's actually to do the first nail of the sukkah the next day. And I have a teacher that that used to say, Eliezer Diamond. So I've I have a teacher, I had a teacher, Eliezer Diamond, Rabbi Eliezer Diamond, who I remember him teaching that the real meaning of Yom Kippur is what you do the day after Yom Kippur, which includes Ma'ariv includes the next, like that night. and so, you know, part of it is that and and it's and it's a mitzvah, you know, you talked about Yom Kippur is cerebral. Definitely internal, right? It's internal. Like whether it's head, however you think of head, Judaism thinks as the of the head and the soul, the mind and the soul as one thing. And it's physical in the sense that we're fasting, but we're also denying the physical on Yom Kippur. That's the whole idea. It's like you're abnegating the physical, like pretending you almost don't have a body. Right? You like dressed in a death shroud, like it's you've left your body. You're just a soul standing there. And sukkot is full bodied. It's the only mitzvah that everyone is commanded to do that you do with your entire body. The only other mitzvah that you do with your other with your entire body is mikvah. But not everyone is commanded to do that. Only women and Jews by choice are the only ones who, you know, say a bracha. The only mitzvah that every person is commanded to do that you do with your entire body is LaShev Ba'Sukkah to dwell in the sukha. So you go from this experience where you're like pretending you don't have a body, right, to an experience that is all a body, and that is about saying, Yeah, like I I named it, I acknowledged. That we don't know who's gonna who's gonna live and who's gonna die. We don't know who by fire, who by water, we don't know. My response to that is like I'm gonna walk outside and have faith. And there's so many ways in which Sukkot is pushing us. First of all, it's pushing us not only on the aspect of faith, but also on the aspect of humility. You know, Sukkot is Hag Ha'Assif festival of the in-gathering. And the Tora actually says, you know, Ba'Hodesh Ha'Sheveii b'Aspechem Et'Tvuat It's like when you are gathering your the produce of your land, that is when you should go out into your sukkot. Now, Rashbam actually says one of he's grandson of Rashi says that that's specifically to cultivate humility. It's about saying, like, right when your heads might be really large, thinking like, look at me, I'm I'm like, I'm good. My pantry is full. I am great. You push yourself to feel more vulnerable. In addition, during that period when your vat is full or your, you know, your threshing floors is full, you are supposed to invite people in. Ushpizin, Hachnasar Urchim inviting guests. The mitzvah of guests is very, very big on Sukkot, I think again, because it's like, yeah, let's do this mitzvah with our whole bodies and with our whole hearts. And there is a commentator, I think it might be Trying to think. I want to maybe say it's Rambam but I'm not positive. Maimonides, that says that, like, if you are not inviting guests into your house on Sukkot and sharing a meal with them or donating right, to people who need food, also when you're preparing your own food for your guests and for your family on Sukkot, then it's not actually a celebration of the holiday and for God. It's a celebration of your stomach. And You know, it's similar to what Isaiah is saying to us on on Yom Kippur when we're pounding our chests. Like, is this the fast I desire? I want you to like pound your chest, but then, you know, not do good by your workers and by the poorer. So too on Sukkot it's like, and who else are you feeding? And who are you else are you bringing under the wings of the Shrina? Right? Because Sukkot, there's a whole Mahloket, a whole debate is what is sukkut really? Are they sukkut mamash? Are they about the huts that our ancestors built when they were traveling in the desert? Or are they the the anane kavod, the the the clouds of glory that represented Hashem and Hashem's presence? And really it's like it's both, right? But there's a teaching that actually this the Sukkot. Even if they are the Ananei HaKavod they do represent the Ananei HaKavod for sure, too. They're the ananim that came after after B'bnei Yisrael had had sinned. This idea of like there were some ananim that followed B'n'I Israel af before the golden calf, and then there were these clouds of glory that followed after and that came back. Meaning, like we don't have to be perfect. We've already said, like, I've sinned, Hashem, forgive me. And then these are the clouds that say, I see you as a whole. Being as a vessel that can break and go off course and seeks wholeness. and I'm here to hold you. so it's about gratitude, it's about humility, it's about sharing with others, it's also about pride. And I think that like that's really a message for us in this moment, public pride, like just as on Chanuka, we're commanded, which is a rabbinic festival, to light our chanukiot, light our candles in a place where they'll be seen in the window. So too, on Sukkot, we're actually supposed to like walk around with our Lulavim and look weird. Like we're supposed to look like people, it should cause people to ask a question of like, what the heck is that? What are those people? They're Jews, they have like weird. Traditions, like they are distinct. Right? It allows us to also be publicly Jewish in a way that I think is so important in this moment. Because I think that's the response, right? We are, and you're in the UK, you're feeling it much more intensely than I'm feeling it here. Although people think that Brooklyn is, you know, a cesspool of anti-Semitism. I personally feel very, very safe, though there's a lot going on here that's complicated. But I feel very physically safe and I plan to walk around with my Lulav and my husband walks around with a kipa always. He wears it to on the subway to work every day. And sukkot like it's saying, okay, like we did we did this inside our Rosh Hashanah Yum Kippur Sukkot, which people don't have off from work and people don't really know about, I'm gonna build my sukkah, people are gonna see it in my backyard. Right, I'm gonna walk around. It's it's public. It's public. It's supposed to be more public. And actually, the Lulav, it's a little it this could be private or public, but like the Lulav is actually supposed to, it goes back to what I said about the the face of the and the feeling of emerging victorious. There's an interpretation, I don't know if it comes from Vayikrah Rabbah, some Midrash about it's like you know, we've been supplicating the sovereign, right? Hamelech. Right, and we we talk about the Melech is on Kisei Ha'Din the throne of judgment, and then moves on Yom Kippur to Kisei Rachamim the son the the throne of mercy. But then on Sukkot, there's an interpretation that we're like we're like the knight who's come before the the sovereign and emerged victorious. the been told, like, yes, you will live, and comes out with it with his sword up high, and that that's the Lulav, telling everyone like. Titaru, like yes, we we've emerged with Kapara, we've emerged with another year of life, like we've been signed. Oliver Joseph: So the so the it's important it's important here to paint the image because the lulav is this is this phallic image. it's this un unripened palm. Well it I mean it's hard not to. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: You had to go there, didn't you? Amazing. Got it. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: It's this unripened palm which stands straight like a sword, and then either side of the sword is the the myrtle leaf and the willow leaf, and then we hold next to it the edge rog and and Jews have this custom of like you described, kind of processing round the synagogue. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: I guess it's fair to talk about it as phallic. I mean, it's also meant to be like a fertility symbol in the sense of like it's supposed to be, you know, it's also there's a way in which using it is supposed to reflect that we want it to be a year of plenty, agriculturally, from a perspecti from the perspective of water. so I'm sure that there's actually something to that that's very intentional. But yeah, the the Lulav itself, every aspect of it the rabbis have ascribed meaning to in the most in the most beautiful way, right? So like the Lulav on in some readings, just like how Jews say Torah and they mean like all Torah is literally the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses, but we say Torah, we mean all Jewish learning. So too with the Lulav, actually. When you say Lulav, you actually mean the Arbat HaMinim What are the Arbat HaMinim the four different species? They are the etrog is one of them, which is the citron, which looks kind of like a big, beautiful, mutant lemon. and smells divine. And then it's what we think of as the Lulav sort of itself, which is the date palm. and so that's the like that's the spine. And you know, rabbinically the the in interpretively the edruga is the heart and the lulav the date palm is the spine. And then there's the , the willow, which is said to be the lips. And then there's the hadas, the myrtle, which is said to be the eyes. And the idea being that it's it's bringing together the entire goof such that our whole body will be blessed. But there's also another interpretation that it's four different kinds of Jew, such that it's binding together the entire Jewish people. I'm sure you know this one, right? Oliver Joseph: So you mentioned listen, we everybody likes to say in these times that the place where they're not is worse than the place that they are. I I'm not sure if the UK is necessarily much more terrible than any other place, right now for the Jewish people. But tell us just what in these turbulent times and in these very changing times and this beautiful kind of description of Sukkot and the different aspects of Sukkot that you gave us, like what inspires you at this time? for the next year. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: You know, I think that The Jewish people right now need to be reminded how much good we have. my sermons were framed by Birchot Ha'Shachar in a way. She'asani B'tzalmo about returning to the essence of being human, Shaul Sani Israel Israel about returning to the essence of being Jewish, and Shazani about being an American Jew in this moment. And my Kol Nidre sermon about Shassani Israel about Shassani Israel, I talked about you know, this expression of Schwer zu seinigid, like it's hard to be a a Jew, Oliver Joseph: Mm. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: and how the rav, Moshe Lichtenstein flipped that on its head. He and others popularized really teaching our children instead that it's delicious, it's amazing to be a Jew. And Sukkot exemplifies that. I think our Yamim Noraim also exemplify it 'cause we are dancing and we are singing. But Sukkot too, it you know, it's we're commanded twice. Twice in Leviticus and in Deuteronomy to be joyful. On Sukkot, to be joyful through our particularist Jewish practices and to share it. And to share it. You know, and I what I tried to tell my people, sort of maybe more even in the Batchorin sermon on the day day one Yom Kippur sermon, That I believe that we are more able to also be in community with our neighbors, to answer the question of Eacha, when we are answering the question of Ayeka and powerfully with a thick Judaism, the question of where are you, who are you? Like that I think that knowing who we are and and having a robust, thick particularism, having traditions that like Yeah, I'm not in school that day, or yeah, I can't go out that day. Like living into our traditions powerfully is really like the most powerful and potent. And having like proud and joyful and generous Judaism that is also can be self-critical. It is what we need in this moment. And it's the most powerful response we can have to Jewish fear, to anti Semitism. we've got good stuff. We are inheritors of an incredible, incredible tradition and I think the more that we can live into it joyfully, proudly, honestly, generously, and with humility, the better off we'll be and the better off the world will be too. Oliver Joseph: I think you should write the tagline for really Jewish. I think this is a good description of some of the objectives of the podcast is to really frame and shape and articulate like what is Really Jewish and what Judaism is and how we live that in the words that you described, how we live that thickly, fully, and with joy. Rabbi Deradashti, thank you so much for being on our podcast. It's this has been super Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: My honor. Oliver Joseph: fun. We'd love to invite you back if you'll come again. and maybe not at the the most hair raising Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Thank you my friend. Oliver Joseph: moments of the year for community rabbis, but certainly another time. And thank you so much. Shanah Tovah Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Thank you. Oliver Joseph: to you and all of your community. Rabbi Michelle Dardashti: Shanah tovah, and may all of our our prayers and our fast in Persian you say, You don't say have an easy fast. You say may your fast be accepted. So may our fast have been accepted. Oliver Joseph: Amen. So that was a fantastic episode. really cool to welcome Rabbi Michelle. I hope you get the kind of energy that she's putting out. a real powerhouse. I think I felt on one hand I felt like I was in her synagogue listening to her her one of her high holiday drashot, one of her high holiday sermons. You kind of feel like you're being, you know, blasted with some really powerful and good Torah. And at the same time I also feel like she was thinking deeply about what it is to be in Sukkot. I was thinking in some of my preparations about the Mi'orinaim's teaching on Tsukkot where he describes that we are like the Shah of the of the Sukkah. the temporary covering, which is the leaves that cover us inside these temporary hearts of the sukkah are like God's perhaps maternal instinct, the kind of loving, caring, attuned, connected care of God at this time. And I think that we're supposed to somehow feel that, feel that intimacy and care and protection at this time of year as we step back out into the world after the Hagim. And I think Rabbi Daradashti portrayed that and portrayed also just a vigour in relation to her own Judaism and the racial to the Judaism that she wants to present to her community. She spoke about thick Judaism, which isn't a kind of terminology that I've particularly come across, which for her I think Reflected something of her desire to have a real interaction and interface with what it is to be Jewish. A real unapologetic, deep, deepening journey of Jew Judaism and what it is to be Jewish. And I really took that from her and I appreciated her coming on the podcast. God willing, she'll come back because I guess we vibed. I guess it was a a meeting of minds and I learned something from the way that she portrayed both her community life and her desire for the way that community life should be and also for the Torah that she presented to the world. Definitely look her up. She's got some cool articles and material out there online. And definitely look up the Nightingale of Iran, the podcast that she spoke about, because it's cool. I listened to I think all of the episodes, I think it's four episodes on the podcast. So that's us for this week. Come back next week. Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. We hoped you got something out of here and for being here. Thank you to Oi Va Voi for our musical intro and outro. They are performing in East London on the 1st of October on Cable Street. It's a special concert marking the anniversary, the ninetietth anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street. says here one of the most defining moments in British Jewish history, which I think Can argue it certainly was. the tickets are available online at dice.fm and we're hoping to be there, which will be super fun. So join us there at their gig. You can listen to their single, Oi Va Voi, Back to My Roots available on streaming platforms, and we're excited to partner with them for a little bit of our music that begins and ends this podcast. thank you to Sophia Kogan who edits and produces the podcast and the media clips. Check us out on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. Like and share our Posts and like and share this podcast. I often say that we are that I don't get that many amazing comments on from the clicks that we get on those three social media platforms. 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