Latest / Sea Hawkers Podcast: for Seattle Seahawks fans / Kubiak to Fleury: What's Actually Changing on Offense (w/ Coach DC)

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Kubiak to Fleury: What's Actually Changing on Offense (w/ Coach DC) · Sea Hawkers Podcast: for Seattle Seahawks fans

0:09
Clinton: Welcome to the Seahawks Podcast.
0:11
I'm your host Clinton Bonner, and as you can see if you're watching this
0:14
on YouTube, and you should be, I am joined today by our very special guest
0:18
Coach DC, Coach Derek, All 22 Films.
0:21
Coach, we are excited because we are gonna dive in to the mystery that is
0:26
Coach Fleury because we have Hard Knocks.
0:28
He's never on Hard Knocks.
0:30
We got a couple of preseason games to now look at, and we're
0:33
gonna look at some of the clues.
0:34
We're gonna look a little deeper, and we're gonna investigate what
0:38
is really in store for the Seahawks offense and how much different
0:41
might it be than last year's Super Bowl championship offensive team.
0:45
Coach, how are you doing?
0:47
Coach Derek: Doing great, man.
0:48
It's, just like you guys, I'm sure, just like super busy, but joyfully busy.
0:52
Yes… I feel happy to have so much work that I want to do-
0:57
Clinton: Oh, that's good
0:58
… Coach Derek: that I, that I can't get to it, you know, to be honest with you.
1:00
Like, you know, this is the second week in a row for me where
1:03
trying to dive into the Seahawk…
1:05
I, I can't produce content until I feel like I understand the plays
1:10
to a certain depth or degree.
1:12
Clinton: Mm.
1:13
Coach Derek: And so I could probably get Seahawks content out sooner, but I don't
1:18
think it would be to the quality that I wish to produce, if that makes sense.
1:22
Clinton: It does.
1:22
Coach Derek: So-
1:23
Clinton: Well, yeah, it does
1:23
… Coach Derek: it's been a fun, it's been a fun two weeks with, with the film out.
1:27
and it's been, like, a lot of late nights and early mornings, so it's what
1:31
I asked for, so I'm very happy to be here with you- I love it… again, and I know
1:35
you guys are excited about the season, despite, a really awful, you know, Bud
1:39
Clark and Jake Bobo- Yeah… for me, man.
1:41
Seeing, looking up and seeing that was, that was not cool at all.
1:45
But, you guys got so much talent and depth there that, you know, I'm
1:48
looking forward to see how they adjust.
1:50
Clinton: Yeah, and that's the right word, too.
1:51
It's not ju- it, it is, because especially the Bobo part, 'cause we're looking at
1:54
Fleury today, and we'll bring this up on screen so folks can see it there
1:58
but the Bobo injury, how might that impact not just the pass game, but what
2:01
Fleury wants to do in the run game?
2:03
I'm sure we'll get into that as well because he's pretty damn
2:05
valuable i- in the run game as well, the type of dude he is.
2:09
But we're gonna discuss that.
2:10
We're gonna also gonna look at, we're gonna talk quarterbacks, we're gonna
2:13
talk some injury, we're gonna talk, hey, are there, is there just too many mouths
2:18
to feed in terms of pass-catching- Mm
2:20
dudes out there, including running backs, knowing that the Shanahan system
2:23
likes to feed running backs that way.
2:25
We're gonna hit all those things.
2:27
We're actually gonna talk a little UConn later, little teaser for those.
2:30
Most people won't care, but heck, it's my show tonight and I care deeply
2:34
so we're gonna talk about that.
2:35
But as it relates to our quarterback, Jalen Milroe, we'll
2:38
get into all that with you.
2:40
And we wanna remind folks out there to please like and subscribe, drop a comment.
2:44
If you have another question for, for Coach Derek, drop it in the comments.
2:48
When this is after being done live, I'll make sure we share it back
2:51
with him on Twitter, and, and you know, he's, he's a great, great
2:54
person out there to engage with.
2:56
And of course, just a reminder that the LA Rams are not Super Bowl champions yet.
3:01
As much as the NFL wants to crown them, we are still the Super Bowl
3:04
champions until they take it away and, I don't think they're going to.
3:07
One thing I want everybody to take away, though, is that you gotta
3:10
follow Coach Derek out on Twitter and go subscribe on YouTube.
3:14
Look, he's approaching 50,000 subs out on YouTube.
3:18
If 50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong, well, then 50,000 subs can't be wrong.
3:22
Go hit him up on YouTube.
3:24
That's, just search All 22 NFL, you'll see it, and find him
3:28
out on Twitter because it's always these gems he's dropping out
3:31
there, and we love having him on.
3:32
So, Coach, that's probably…
3:35
I, I, I know our audience loves you, so I know most of our audience is gonna
3:38
know you already, but I also know there's brand new people seeing you for the
3:41
first time, so I wanna give you the love.
3:43
Let's dive right in.
3:45
Kubiak gone, Fleury's here.
3:47
We're not breaking any new ground there.
3:49
But you, now we got two preseasons, preseason games under our
3:53
belts, albeit still preseason.
3:56
What are you seeing as the biggest maybe similarities from last year?
4:00
And then what are the biggest deltas that you're noticing so
4:03
far in what Fleury has unveiled?
4:06
Coach Derek: Yeah, there's a, a lot more running back motion just before the snap.
4:11
Clinton: Hmm.
4:12
Coach Derek: And I, and I, you know, not to get into the Drew Lock, Jalen
4:16
Milroe thing immediately, but I did notice it more in the first half
4:21
this week than I did in the second.
4:23
I charted the whole first possession for Milroe in the, third quarter.
4:31
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
4:31
Coach Derek: And didn't notice one iteration of shotgun and the running
4:34
back motioning out just before the snap.
4:37
And I felt like in the first half of this game in particular, that
4:41
kind of cleared up some of the reads for Drew Lock underneath.
4:45
I'm, I'm being a little bit generic or general here
4:48
in stating that, but…
4:50
Now, having said that, the two interceptions by Jalen Milroe I think
4:53
are really poor- Yes… in my opinion.
4:55
so a lot to like.
4:58
There's a ton of run concepts, and I think that, you know, th- there's probably
5:02
some variations off of what Kubiak did.
5:06
I, I think there's gonna be, like a Venn diagram.
5:08
I think there's gonna be a large amount of, intersection between
5:12
the run concepts in, in my opinion.
5:15
a pattern emerging that is not unique to Flory or, or Shanahan is
5:23
run action to the boundary with the quarterback booting to the field.
5:27
I mean- Hmm… that's the way you do it, you know, especially
5:29
when you're getting 11 personnel.
5:31
I'm just giving you general observations- Yeah… so far that I
5:35
think either carry over from last year and look similar, or things that are new.
5:41
The whole running back motioning out thing, I'm not saying that Kubiak and
5:45
Seattle didn't ever use it last year, but it's definitely something that
5:49
exists in San Francisco, whether it's McCaffrey in the backfield or not.
5:55
Motion just before the snap by the running backs, oftentimes moving out to the side
6:01
where there's already two receivers.
6:03
So you're almost kind of forcing the second-level defenders
6:06
to widen up a little bit-
6:08
Clinton: Hmm
6:08
… Coach Derek: and open up a lane to throw into somewhere, you know…
6:12
so that's something that's, I think is a little bit new.
6:16
So
6:16
Clinton: yeah, I'd love to start- The, the
6:17
Coach Derek: amount of times- I'd love, yeah… to see it.
6:18
Clinton: I'd love to start there too, and so great observation first and taking that
6:23
a click deeper, but you're mentioning, hey, at least what you saw from the
6:26
snaps, that they were doing it more under, under Drew than they were under Milroe.
6:30
Now, is that a consequence?
6:31
Is Milroe in shotgun more?
6:33
There was some…
6:34
There was plenty of shotgun Drew.
6:35
We're gonna talk about the run game out of shotgun I think in a little bit.
6:38
But is it more, hey, do you think the coaches think Drew's just
6:43
more capable of running that a- and/or Milroe is in a, is in- Yeah
6:47
shotgun more and it's less friendly for that type of motion, or is it something
6:50
just else you think they're trying?
6:52
Coach Derek: I'm not sure.
6:53
I mean, when I watched the first half, I noticed how often that motion
6:57
was a part of the play, and it's very smooth and, and oftentimes it's to
7:01
the field, which makes sense, right?
7:03
You're, you motion them into the boundary even in the NFL
7:06
where the hashes are tight.
7:07
Yep.
7:08
There's just not as much room.
7:09
but it…
7:11
When I started to watch the third quarter film, there did come a
7:14
point in time where I was like, "All right, this looks different,"
7:17
you know- Hmm… to some degree.
7:18
I did feel like Milroe, for whatever reason, was less, you know, take the
7:25
four or five yard gain that's there, whether it's play action boot and throw
7:30
it out to the tight end/fullback in the flats, or the first interception, Hmm
7:36
I think is an absolute setup for him to just throw it to the
7:40
running back to the field, let the running back run onto the space.
7:43
When I say field, I mean the wide side of the field.
7:45
I know that you know, but I'm saying this for- Yeah… your
7:46
listeners and/or watching.
7:47
It's great.
7:47
Clinton: Thank you.
7:48
Coach Derek: it's a very unusual setup, the first interception.
7:52
It's, I think it's a seven or eight play drive, and I believe it's a first and 10
7:59
My apologies for that.
8:00
It was not the seven or eight play drive.
8:01
That first possession of the third quarter was a punt, but it is a first
8:04
and 10, and it's Bunch into the boundary.
8:08
And normally when you get Bunch into the boundary at the NFL level, one
8:12
of those three receivers into the boundary, the short side of the field
8:14
is gonna motion to the wide side.
8:16
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
8:17
Coach Derek: And it, it, to me, this is my impression, it seemed to me like
8:20
Fleury was saying, "Hey, we know what coverage we're gonna get to the field.
8:24
We're gonna run the running back into the flats, a little curl by
8:27
the number one to the field, throw the ball to the running back in the
8:30
flats, let him run onto the space.
8:32
We get five, six yards, fine."
8:34
Clinton: Yeah.
8:34
Coach Derek: Great.
8:34
That's what
8:35
Clinton: I see.
8:35
Great on first down.
8:36
That's a, "Hey, we'll take that on first down every single time."
8:38
Yeah.
8:39
Coach Derek: That's what I see, and I think it's there.
8:40
Don't gr- don't get me wrong, the corner is, is sitting at eight, nine
8:43
yards depth, and he's gonna react.
8:45
The inside linebacker, you know, he's gonna react, so
8:47
you're not gonna hit a home run.
8:48
But I, I just feel like Jalen Milroe made things more difficult on himself
8:52
by not taking access to what might have been there, immediately.
8:57
And, and of course, look, former…
9:00
We have so many people out there analyzing the game that former NFL quarterbacks will
9:04
tell you, "Okay, this is what this is."
9:06
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
9:07
Coach Derek: And they're not wrong.
9:08
Clearly they're not wrong, right?
9:09
They know a whole lot more than me and you do.
9:11
But we do not know what was said to the quarterback in the helmet pre-snap.
9:15
Sure.
9:15
My suspicion here on this first interception is- "Hey Jay," or, you know
9:21
whatever he calls him, "We wanna take the access to the running back right now.
9:26
Un- unless the corner squats or the inside linebacker flows
9:29
right now, we wanna take it."
9:31
And, you know, I could be wrong.
9:33
I could obviously be wrong there.
9:34
So, in terms of the difference between those two guys, which is not
9:37
necessarily what you asked me, Lock made a horrible decision on an
9:41
interception in the first half, too.
9:42
He
9:42
Clinton: got bailed out on
9:43
Coach Derek: that one.
9:44
He got bailed out.
9:45
Yes, he did.
9:45
I don't…
9:45
You know, I watched that play three or four times, and I'm like, "Did
9:48
he see, you know, what he thought or perceived was a penalty?"
9:51
Right.
9:52
Like Josh Allen stuff, you know?
9:53
Yep.
9:53
Josh Allen, "Okay, I think I see a penalty over here or there
9:55
so I'm gonna throw it," right?
9:56
And, and let happen what hap- what happens.
9:59
I, I didn't see that at all.
10:00
To me, that was a awful decision by Lock.
10:03
that was decision-making versus Milroe that was more, like
10:08
execution- Mm-hmm… and then ball location, which was, you know, pretty
10:12
inconsistent throughout the game.
10:13
From a Flores standpoint, y- I think, I think, I do think you have a merging
10:18
of the, the Shanahan stuff and the, quote, Kubiak, which is all related.
10:22
And so I'm very interested in some of the, the variations that we get.
10:28
some of my notes, ton of run concepts, like I said.
10:32
Clinton: Yeah, let's talk about that.
10:33
Coach Derek: I'm, I'm really interested in, well, in addition, the, the
10:37
pass pro element, how much is put on the quarterback versus how
10:43
much is put on the offensive line.
10:46
I think, I suspect that you guys know, that after one of the s- 49ers
10:51
Super Bowl losses, there was a discussion about Spagnuolo attacking certain pass
10:57
pro and the 49ers being unwilling or in the Shanahan structure not changing-
11:03
Clinton: Mm-hmm
11:04
… Coach Derek: that pass pro, like, quote, "ever."
11:07
And Spagnuolo knowing that, forcing certain looks, and then taking
11:13
advantage of it, basically knowing, "Okay, they're gonna throw the hot.
11:16
They're not gonna change the protection."
11:17
And so that part of it for me, I'm not pretending to know as much as ex-NFL
11:22
quarterbacks, but I am interested in that aspect of it, you know, 'cause
11:26
I didn't think Kubiak had that problem.
11:28
To me, Kubiak almost always had all the right answers, whether
11:31
it was play call, whether it was formation, whether it was pass pro.
11:35
I mean, the system was beautiful.
11:37
That's why I'm glad, correct me if I'm wrong, they kept the O-line coach, right?
11:39
Clinton: Yes.
11:40
Benton, yep, correct.
11:42
Yeah, they kept Benton there.
11:43
So were you seeing anything that alludes to that Fleury might be adopting the
11:48
Shanahan style of locking in on something that might give you some concern?
11:53
I mean, you said what you said, so I'm like, I'm like, "Oh, does that
11:55
mean you're seeing a trait or two that might be peeking out its ugly head?"
11:59
Or no, it's, that's not evident so far?
12:00
Coach Derek: No.
12:01
No, not to me.
12:02
But, you know, I am seeing formations and, and the ensuing plays and
12:06
action that looks the same.
12:07
Mm-hmm.
12:07
I mean, one that I talked about a ton on my channel last year was 12
12:11
personnel, two tight ends, one running back, and then what I call ace.
12:15
So tight end receiver to the right, tight end receiver to the left, and
12:19
those guys, it's a mirrored look- Mm-hmm… to the right and to the left.
12:22
So they had the same spacing, they had the same width.
12:25
you know, I know that you know this, but I'm more so talking for
12:28
for, for your observers or listeners.
12:30
and Kubiak used that brilliantly in 2025.
12:36
I mean, it was someone like, I think it's Dan Casey or people who write
12:39
books about offensive play callers.
12:41
Like me in the off-season, I wanted to write one about just Kubiak's usage of 12
12:47
personnel ace formation because there was so much there with the way he attacked it.
12:53
And so for me, when I…
12:54
You know, obviously he left and he goes to the Raiders.
12:57
I was kind of like, "Okay, are they gonna keep the ace look?"
13:00
Hmm.
13:00
Because it's just fun for me A lot of people use it at the
13:05
NFL level, don't get me wrong.
13:07
But in my opinion, because of the unique personnel that the Seahawks
13:12
have/had, and the way Kubiak called the plays, I felt like it was
13:19
dialing up or increasing the volume on the effectiveness, if you will.
13:22
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
13:23
Coach Derek: and, and especially the play action.
13:25
I mean, so many of the touchdowns generated last year were generated
13:29
from that formation, whether they were to receivers or tight ends.
13:32
I just, I love a balanced formation that's two by two that looks the
13:36
same to the right and the left.
13:37
Personally, you know, I love it.
13:39
And so I was glad to see that Flory is keeping that one, 'cause, you know
13:42
we saw it show up a lot, e- especially in this last game against Tennessee.
13:46
Clinton: I love that.
13:46
Love that insight because…
13:49
And thank you for taking the time to explain it too, because, as much
13:51
as I do know, I, I could use all the visualizations you're giving
13:55
with, with the audio commentary there.
13:57
So that, that's super helpful for me.
13:58
But really cool to understand that, hey, there was a concept that was
14:01
really working well last year, and yes, we're gonna see a hybrid, but in
14:06
your opinion, what you're seeing on tape is they're, they're retaining some
14:09
of the stuff that clearly did work.
14:11
And it'll evolve, it will always evolve, but con- the concept of it
14:14
with that H formation is retained, which is super interesting to me.
14:18
It's a very good, very good point.
14:20
so we saw Drew, we saw Drew, I think, under center quite a bit, but
14:25
then really I've seen, something I wanted to ask you about was, you mentioned
14:29
the run concepts early and the, the variance off of the run concepts.
14:33
I saw, I was like, oh man, we're running out of shotgun, I think
14:36
more than we did last year.
14:38
So am I right?
14:39
Does it seem like the, the volume of that is higher, and then is the…
14:43
What's happening with the run concepts out of shotgun that either have you excited
14:47
or you're just, you know, you're not sure are quite there yet for the Seahawks?
14:50
Coach Derek: Well, and I mean, in this day and age, you see so much
14:53
shotgun at all levels of football.
14:55
My apologies, I'm looking off-screen 'cause I'm s- I was trying to find that
14:58
tweet that you and I talked about- It's
14:59
Clinton: all
14:59
Coach Derek: good… in the pre-show, but like, for whatever reason
15:02
I'm having difficulty sharing it.
15:03
But to your point, we see so much shotgun.
15:06
The, the dynamic is so interesting to me.
15:10
The training of players at a younger level is In many cases reliant on being able
15:17
to see the football, see the quarterback.
15:20
Now there are some times admittedly where if you look at the end zone angle of film
15:26
people, non-football people will say, "Well, he's looking at the quarterback."
15:29
No, he's looking at the guard.
15:31
He's getting his read from the guard- Mm-hmm… or he's getting
15:32
his read from the, you know, the, the tackle to the running back side.
15:36
The calls are so different and so variable that I feel like we're
15:41
all remiss if we say he's reading this with 100% certainty, okay?
15:45
Now I'm getting to the, the whole point, your question about the shotgun stuff.
15:48
Clinton: Sure.
15:49
Coach Derek: My apologies.
15:50
All
15:50
Clinton: good
15:51
… Coach Derek: getting, being able to use both I think is important.
15:54
It really helps to have a- an athletic quarterback.
15:57
And so of course, now Sam Darnold showed off his athleticism in the Super Bowl.
16:01
Three or four plays, at least two in the first half I thought
16:05
were potentially disastrous-
16:08
Clinton: Mm-hmm
16:08
… Coach Derek: from a pass pro standpoint, and then Darnold escapes and, you
16:12
know, turns them into first downs or, or at least a, not a negative play.
16:17
But it's super helpful to have a athletic quarterback where you can
16:20
stick the ball in the quarterback's gut, read the zone concept or
16:24
whatever it is, and then have the quarterback keep it around the edge.
16:26
They're not gonna do that with Darnold a whole lot.
16:28
That's not what this run game's gonna look like.
16:30
But it does look like it in the preseason when you just watch the…
16:34
If you were scouting them and watching the run game from the shotgun you'd
16:37
say, "Well, they're, it does look like the quarterback's reading it to me."
16:41
So that's interesting.
16:43
how often would they do that with Darnold?
16:47
At most once every two or three weeks probably on, in a critical situation.
16:52
I think that that, you know, there's so many other options
16:54
and so much talent on this team.
16:56
I, I'm interested in the 11 personnel run game because this is a theory of
17:02
mine, and I don't ask you or listeners, viewers to accept it, completely
17:07
but I think 11 personnel shotgun run effectiveness is extremely reduced if
17:15
you don't have an athletic quarterback.
17:18
If you're not…
17:18
And I'm talking about all levels of football.
17:20
So the NFL some would say maybe is a little bit different.
17:23
you're not using some of your receivers as blockers.
17:27
A- when I say 11 personnel, I mean one running back, one tight end.
17:30
And so if you're not able to or willing to- threaten the field horizontally with
17:38
your quarterback keeping it, essentially, then you've limited the amount of
17:43
space horizontally that the defense has to defend, against the run.
17:48
Mm.
17:48
So to answer your question, I do think the shotgun run game looks good.
17:53
I'm wondering if it's gonna be out of 11 personnel or 12.
17:56
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
17:57
Yeah.
17:57
Coach Derek: Because 12 is different, number one.
18:01
Number two, you just lost Jake Bobo, who's an- Correct… exceptional
18:07
blocker in the run game.
18:09
So 11 personnel can functionally be 12, and I'm not calling Jake
18:13
Bobo a tight end in disguise.
18:15
Like, if you guys don't know, I think you do, but if you, if you guys don't
18:18
know, like, I've done videos on Jake Bobo in the preseason last year.
18:21
I remember that touchdown catch.
18:23
I think it was the Chiefs.
18:24
Is that right?
18:25
Clinton: I don't remember it per se, but, you know, but I- Yeah
18:28
… remember him catching a touchdown.
18:29
Forget who against.
18:30
Coach Derek: So, so, you know, big fan, and that's a loss-
18:33
Clinton: Yes
18:34
… Coach Derek: I think that impacts the 11 personnel run game.
18:36
So to answer your question, I like what we're seeing.
18:38
It looks like the quarterbacks are reading it.
18:41
Sam Darnold certainly would be capable of, of reading it, reading the edge
18:44
defender, reading the inside linebacker.
18:46
It makes me wonder if there's not gonna be some more RPO usage
18:49
and I- Hmm… I don't know if people have talked about that yet.
18:51
Basically, instead of reading the defensive end, you're reading the inside
18:54
linebacker or second-level defender and deciding whether to, hand the ball
18:58
off or throw it out there in the flats.
19:00
Think, like, Jayden Daniels, Washington Commanders, his rookie year type stuff-
19:06
Clinton: Yeah
19:06
Coach Derek: yeah… where you've got the run action over here.
19:08
Conceptually, it's really just play action boot is all it is.
19:12
You're just asking the quarterback to read it.
19:14
So I don't necessarily see the offense going there, but when you start…
19:20
when you see or observe the quarterback reading, w- appear- apparent- apparently
19:25
reading, you know, zone read stuff, then your brain starts to say, "Okay, how are
19:28
they gonna do this out of 11 personnel?"
19:30
Again, I don't expect you or others to accept my assertion that 11 personnel
19:34
run game out of the shotgun is very limited if your quarterback isn't
19:38
athletic or you're not willing to have him keep the football around the edge.
19:42
Forgive the long-winded answer, but that's where I am with that, and again
19:45
it's perhaps my own limitation because I have never seen 11 personnel run
19:49
game work without a quarterback who can add onto it, if that makes sense.
19:54
Clinton: Makes all the sense in the world.
19:55
Un- understood.
19:56
And there's a couple pieces there that I wanna, you know
19:57
delve into a little bit more.
19:59
I like the idea of, Seattle adding that to the repertoire, mainly for
20:03
the a- for the, you said, hey, it, it's not, you don't think it'd be
20:07
something they go to all the time.
20:09
However, having it in the quiver and pulling the strings at the right time
20:13
to me, when I think about those RPOs, and I think about, you know, just
20:17
using the flats with more, more consistency, I look at those, I kinda
20:22
deem those, like, free yards in the NFL.
20:23
When you, when you are doing it well, and you're in rhythm, and, and if you
20:28
have a defense that doesn't really think of you that way, speaking in
20:32
very generic terms, but then you're keeping them honest in the preseason.
20:35
But if coaches will watch this going, "Hey, we gotta be ready for this.
20:38
They might do this," to me, it sets up other opportunities to, yes, do it a
20:42
couple times, but then also probably spring some things off of it in a variant
20:46
that might be a more explosive play- Yeah
20:48
based on a look as well.
20:50
So all that's exciting, and I will say, I'm glad you bring up Sam's
20:53
athleticism, because I don't think he gets, you know, I'm not saying
20:56
people are like, oh- Underrated.
20:57
Yeah, he's, he's un- he's an underrated athlete.
20:59
It's not like, oh, he's gonna go rush for 600 yards.
21:01
No, he's not going to go rush for 600 yards.
21:03
However, there was multiple times down the stretch where he's responsible
21:07
for moving the chains on third down.
21:09
it was a little bit, a little bit like Mahomes got very, very, very good.
21:14
It's like, you don't think of Mahomes as a scrambler.
21:16
However, if it's third and six, you see Mahomes scooting around the edge
21:19
he's getting six and a half yards.
21:20
Like, book it, especially when he was super healthy.
21:23
We'll see if he can con- continue that after- Right… some injury.
21:25
But you see him escaping, it's like, well, just move the chains.
21:28
It's, it's done already.
21:29
He's getting this first down.
21:31
And down the stretch and into the Super Bowl, Sam kinda got to that level of
21:36
okay, if he's taking off, he sees it, he's gone, and he is a good enough athlete to
21:41
really, you know, move those chains.
21:43
So exciting stuff, 'cause that could be a wrinkle.
21:46
You did mention Bobo.
21:48
We, I wanted to chat with you about, you know, we lose Ouzts, and Ouzts
21:52
is a 275-pound fullback that has explosives that are off the charts.
21:56
we still have Brady Russell, but he is not, from a size perspective, giving
22:01
up about 25 pounds, and an explosion perspective, he's different than Rob Ouzts.
22:07
And we lose Bobo, and you mentioned, thank you for saying it, hey, in 11
22:11
personnel, you're kinda could be in a de facto 12 when you have blockers like
22:16
you know, like, Bobo out there.
22:18
So- We have a lot of mouths to feed.
22:21
We just lost two guys that would b- would play a big role in the run game.
22:26
How do you think this impacts- How long's Ouzts out for?
22:27
How long's the fullback out for?
22:28
He's out for the year.
22:29
He's got a neck…
22:30
He's…
22:30
So his neck injury that kept him out the end of last season popped up.
22:34
They put him on IR.
22:35
He's gone.
22:36
So- I didn't know
22:36
Coach Derek: that.
22:37
I
22:37
Clinton: knew about- Yeah
22:37
… Coach Derek: Bobo, but I didn't know that.
22:38
Clinton: Yeah, so Ouzts is gone too, so just makeup wise, how does that hit you?
22:42
You're hearing the Ouzts stuff in, you know, in real time.
22:45
Coach Derek: That's a…
22:45
Both of those are losses, I mean, individually.
22:48
Collectively or combined, I mean, it's a pretty big factor
22:51
you know, to be honest with you.
22:52
And I can reflect on the Ravens' uses of, of Pat Ricard.
22:57
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
22:57
Coach Derek: and he was used not just, it's not just in the run game, but it's
23:00
it could be, pass pro stuff as well.
23:03
So the subtraction of Ouzts is, possibly trickle-down
23:09
effect on the tight ends.
23:10
How much more are those guys gonna be asked to do two things, I guess.
23:15
Move back in the backfield.
23:16
I don't know what they think of…
23:17
Brady Russell was, would be the presumed starter now, right?
23:20
30- Correct.
23:21
Clinton: At, at fullback, yes
23:22
Coach Derek: Yeah.
23:22
So, how, how often would they take, rather take a tight end and
23:27
move them back in the backfield?
23:29
That's what's happened in the NFL in recent years.
23:31
Yeah That's why so many teams don't have fullbacks.
23:32
They, they, they really do have a fullback.
23:34
They're just asking the tight end to do it, right?
23:36
but you know, who would that be?
23:39
Right?
23:39
Barner would be capable, but I don't think it would be him.
23:42
Clinton: Yeah, he wouldn't do, you probably wouldn't do with Barner.
23:44
You're not gonna do that with Arroyo.
23:46
Right.
23:46
But most likely as your, as your move, your move tight end.
23:49
They have two options.
23:49
It could be Saubert, but Saubert's not the athlete that either Ouzts or
23:53
Russell are in terms of nimbleness.
23:55
But there's the fourth guy, which is Nick Kallerup, who he looks like
23:59
he could be that, "Hey, if we need a, a fullback to go in," he's got a
24:02
little higher level of athleticism.
24:04
Whereas Saubert is one of my favorite players in the entire team, Coach, but
24:08
he is your traditional blocking tight end who when he's in line, he's just
24:12
he knows how to position his body.
24:13
He's great with his hands.
24:14
I'm not so sure he's the same if he's gotta go to a moving target.
24:19
Coach Derek: Is Venette still around?
24:21
Clinton: Venette's a five right now, so yes, it's, so they
24:23
got Venette back on the team.
24:24
Amazing
24:26
Coach Derek: story… I
24:26
Clinton: don't…
24:26
Yeah, I know, right?
24:27
It's the circle back.
24:28
I, I wonder, I don't know, I don't think Venette makes the 53.
24:31
Coach Derek: Right.
24:32
Right
24:32
Clinton: But with the way that, vets get treated with this
24:34
practice squad now, he likely could get there or get gobbled up if a
24:38
team needs a, a blocking tight end.
24:40
Coach Derek: Yeah, really cool.
24:41
The, there's so much tight end talent across the NFL and
24:44
the college football universe.
24:45
I mean, the, I feel like tight end position, what's happened in the last
24:51
let's do it this way, the last three or four years to tight ends- Mm-hmm
24:54
is what happened with wide receiver talent 10, 12 years ago.
24:58
And what I mean is, you know, more specific training at the position, and
25:04
I, I feel like that occurred conceptually for wide receivers further back in
25:08
the past than it did for tight ends.
25:10
Clinton: Yeah.
25:10
Coach Derek: You know?
25:11
So I'm not sure that I explained that really well, but there's a
25:13
lot of really good tight ends, and Seattle has at least three of them.
25:16
I just finished a, a video on Arroyo, putting out.
25:19
I didn't include the ball that I think is down the left sideline from Milroe
25:24
that, I mean, possibly that ball was, you know, a foot, two feet, I don't wanna
25:30
s- even say the word under thrown, but it could be slightly further out there.
25:34
But the- Yeah
25:34
linebacker makes a great play on it, 33.
25:37
You know, so yeah, I mean, that, those two are impact, those two's losses
25:41
the, the lack of availability for Bobo and Ouzts, I thought big- bringing
25:46
back Bobo was a big deal this year.
25:48
Clinton: I liked it.
25:49
I, I love, I lo- I mean, he was signed to Jacksonville, right?
25:51
So they went and out and matched.
25:52
So Jacksonville wanted them, wanted him, and your point being, too, about
25:57
the wide receiver and then bleeding into the spe- into the tight ends
26:01
be- becoming more specialists, and then Bobo, who literally can kind of
26:05
canvas both worlds when he needs to.
26:06
Right.
26:07
You wanna put him in line and be a de facto tight end, he gets the job done.
26:10
But he also can go over the middle, he's got…
26:12
He could, he could high point the ball, a very sure-handed
26:15
receiver, and he was clutch, right?
26:16
So, and he was a very good blocker in the run game.
26:19
So, I'm with you for su- Big loss.
26:21
Yeah, I, I agree.
26:22
For both of, of those guys.
26:22
It's gonna be interesting to see how Fleury, you know, evolves or, or turns
26:26
turns it over, but you mentioned that we really do have a, I don't
26:30
I don't, I don't think the NFL, regular NFL fan would think about the
26:35
Seattle tight end room as special.
26:37
They'd be like, "Oh, Barner's nice and emerging, and he, you know
26:40
wears a mink coat where they're celebrating, and he's a b-," you know
26:43
all that stuff, a bit of a showman.
26:44
All cool.
26:45
Even if they even know who A.J.
26:46
Barner is.
26:47
Arroyo, they probably get excited about because he's the move guy who played
26:51
with Cam Ward and scored a bajillion touchdowns with wide open hash- hashes.
26:55
Now he's emerging, and he looks to be a darn good move who can stick his
27:00
nose in there and do a job blocking.
27:02
But then they have Saubert and we have Kallerup.
27:04
So you got Fleury, which is the topic for today.
27:08
He's a tight ends coach coming from a system that really likes to
27:11
use tight ends, significantly.
27:14
W- what do you think, if you had to look at, like, okay, you got those three dudes.
27:18
Well, Saubert's not gonna catch too many passes regardless.
27:20
Coach Derek: Right.
27:21
Clinton: What could you project or think about for Barner and Arroyo's usage given
27:25
the fact that it's also within a room with a lot of pass catchers that gotta
27:28
get a ball, gotta get balls, and a team that still likes to run the football?
27:32
So how does it all suss in your opinion?
27:34
Coach Derek: Yeah.
27:34
I just, it's funny that you ask that because I literally just talked about
27:38
that- Hmm… point at the end of the Arroyo video I recorded, like
27:42
maybe 45 minutes before you and I met.
27:44
Oh, cool.
27:44
And my point was twofold, but it really lines up with what you said, I believe.
27:49
I think in another city, another NFL team, that A.J.
27:52
Barner could be a 70, 75 catch a season guy.
27:56
Clinton: Yeah.
27:56
Coach Derek: Six, eight, you know, maybe as much as 10 touchdowns, depending on…
28:00
You know, essentially if he had been in Arizona last year
28:05
and, and been exposed to as many opportunities as their tight end.
28:08
I think it's McBride the guy.
28:09
McBride
28:09
Clinton: yeah.
28:10
Yep.
28:10
Coach Derek: You know, I don't know that he's gonna catch, what is it, 112
28:12
balls or whatever the heck McBride did.
28:14
I don't even know what the number was.
28:15
I don't know that it was above 100, but it was a lot.
28:17
Clinton: It was a lot, yeah.
28:17
For sure.
28:18
Coach Derek: Very similar to, 2021 Mark Andrews in Baltimore.
28:23
Lamar goes out like week eight, week nine, something like that, and
28:27
Andrews ends up with like 94 catches because we lost both of our
28:33
running backs, Gus Edwards and J.K.
28:36
Dobbins.
28:36
Lamar goes out some point in time, and Mark Andrews is like
28:40
the only guy you know, left.
28:41
Mm-hmm.
28:42
So he ended up with 90 catches.
28:44
So i- what I'm saying is I could sit…
28:46
I could say here that, in my opinion, six other teams in the NFL, I'm not gonna
28:50
name them, maybe even upwards of eight, Barner could be a 70 catch, 75 catch guy.
28:57
Yeah.
28:57
However, however, in Seattle, of course, you know, JSN, Shaheed, Horton, I don't
29:04
know what his deal is, you know, about…
29:05
It's a long season, 17 games.
29:07
A lot of guys are gonna be injured, so you know, I don't what…
29:09
I don't know what the specific usage o- of Horton will be And then al-
29:14
along with that, you know, they wanna be committed to the run game.
29:17
So Arroyo being a emerging player potentially could cut
29:22
even more into Barner's targets.
29:24
I think A.J.
29:25
Barner's a way better football player, way better pass-catching tight end than the
29:29
rest of NFL fan bases would be aware of.
29:32
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
29:33
Coach Derek: And that's one of the reasons why I wholesale reject
29:37
one game rating structures completely because Barner is a guy to me who has
29:43
impact when he gets the opportunity.
29:45
Why doesn't he get more opportunities?
29:47
Well, you got JSN, right?
29:48
You got, you know, last year Kenneth Walker.
29:50
So to your point, I think it's a real dynamic that if Arroyo emerges
29:54
you could see Barner's season-long production, his stats essentially stay
29:59
the same even though he's, maybe he's a, a better player than he was
30:04
two, three years ago, what have you.
30:05
I th- I, I think the world of their tight end group, I really do.
30:08
Saubert, Saubert I think, I think maybe I- Sa-
30:10
Clinton: yeah, Saubert, but you-
30:11
Coach Derek: Saubert… you got it.
30:12
Yeah I think I've been mispronouncing it.
30:13
is a, is a good player.
30:16
You know- Yeah… don't get me wrong, and it…
30:17
The two-point conversion catch, like you'll never forget that obviously.
30:21
to the, the moment of the decision there to…
30:23
I think it's a design play.
30:25
I think that other people are a, a, a part of the read and a potential
30:29
receiver of the football there- Sure… but I don't think it was
30:32
accidental of him catching that football.
30:33
I think it's totally designed.
30:34
But in any case, I think it's a better tight end group than everybody would
30:37
give them credit, than many people would give them credit, first of all.
30:40
Clinton: Yeah.
30:41
Coach Derek: second of all, to me consistency of usage looks the same…
30:46
I, I, I see it here.
30:47
I observe it basically.
30:48
In this system I think you're still gonna have the same type of plays
30:51
drawn up for these guys, the type of…
30:53
the same expectation level.
30:55
Maybe you see more 12 personnel usage, but I think that depends on Arroyo
31:00
being consistent as a blocker.
31:03
Clinton: Hmm.
31:04
Coach Derek: He can do it the touchdown, you know, the touchdown by Jacardie
31:09
Wright the other night is so crazy.
31:10
Like, the first time I watched it from the all 22, I'm like, "Did
31:15
Arroyo get two blocks there?"
31:17
And then when I see the end zone angle, I'm like, "Oh, he thinks he
31:20
missed the block on the linebacker," so he's turning around, and then the
31:25
receiver runs him into the safety.
31:27
He literally gets sandwiched between the receiver and the safety.
31:29
So, you know, I think he can be a better blocker.
31:33
I think he has to be.
31:34
If you wanna use 12 personnel a whole lot, like, Barner and Arroyo on the
31:38
field at the same time with JSN over here, and Shaheed or Horton over there to
31:42
the right, I think that's a great group.
31:44
It, it, it relies upon him being able to block consistently, so, you know
31:47
the question is, can he do that?
31:49
Clinton: Yeah.
31:49
I love, love the…
31:51
I, I have my, my questions and, and some doubts there still, with
31:55
with him in that, in that position.
31:57
But I think we're, we're gonna get a chance to see it, certainly give
31:59
the young man in his second year an opportunity there, for sure.
32:02
And overall, we ran the ball at, at one of the higher percentages
32:08
last year and, you know, we know Mike Macdonald's gonna wanna run the ball.
32:11
Like, after year one with Ryan Grubb, where it was, I don't even wanna talk
32:15
about it, but it was all, all shotgun all the time, complete predictability, like
32:20
where, to the point where linebackers were not even dropping on play action because
32:23
there were so many tells out there.
32:26
And then turning that over to K- to Kubiak, where everything's multiple
32:30
everything looks like a 98 mile per hour fastball, however it's a changeup
32:33
and, and you're s- you know, you're- Yeah… you're lu- you're lunging and
32:37
you're on the bench two seconds later because you got fooled, to take
32:40
a, a baseball metaphor or analogy.
32:42
So do you think given what you're seeing so far, given the JSN just gets paid.
32:48
I know it's…
32:49
Him, is that a big deal?
32:50
I mean, he just got paid, right?
32:51
I mean, he just got paid huge, huge dollars.
32:53
They draft a, a running back in the first round that, again, m- might be catching
32:58
some more balls with, Jadarian Price.
33:01
If you had to…
33:02
Do you think we'll be pretty much steady eddy in terms of percentage of
33:06
run versus pass, or do you think the dials will change more towards run or
33:10
more passing in the Fleury offense?
33:12
Just based on what you, you're seeing so far, or what you know of Fleury.
33:16
Coach Derek: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question.
33:18
I think that, to some degree it depends on what the defense
33:22
offers, what's out there.
33:24
And it…
33:25
We have to keep in mind, I'm not evading the question, but we have to
33:27
keep in mind that it's a 17 game season, and, you know, let's just say your
33:31
match up in week 10 or week 11 or week 12, whatever, might be a team that you
33:36
face that, is down two D tackles.
33:38
Mm-hmm.
33:38
So of course you're gonna run the ball more, right?
33:39
Or- Sure… or the same, the, the opposite side of that coin.
33:42
Your m- the team is missing a nickel DB and, and a safety, so you
33:46
may target the tight ends more.
33:48
I think of basically last year, the Ravens go to Green Bay without Lamar Jackson
33:54
and, and we had a awful season in 2025.
33:57
We deserved every bit of it, however.
34:00
and, and the- Packers are down two D tackles.
34:05
Micah Parsons' been out for a while with the ACL injury.
34:08
Mm-hmm.
34:08
And Derrick Henry could have ran for 400 yards that night if
34:11
they gave him the football more.
34:12
So I, to some degree, I think it depends on what you're seeing
34:15
in that, specific week.
34:17
And the Shanahan structure, Kubiak structure, McVay, they're all similar.
34:22
I think Ben Johnson's right in there with them.
34:25
They all are very multiple as far as presenting this particular look
34:30
formation, and then the quarterback being able to decide which play to run.
34:35
And Darnold is super…
34:37
He's a brilliant mind as far as football or football goes.
34:41
Twice in the off-season I was able to listen to him talk football
34:44
and, you know, one of which was from, like, four or five years ago.
34:47
And I was like, "Man, this is…"
34:48
It's just fun to listen to-
34:50
Clinton: Mm
34:50
… Coach Derek: some of these guys talk when they get the chance to do so, you know?
34:54
I think I would like to see them be committed to the under center personally.
34:58
Yes.
34:58
I'd like to see, see them committed to the under center because, you
35:02
can change the defense's reaction time
35:07
basically, also lengthen or elongate how much time they're put
35:12
in conflict by going under center.
35:15
Perfect example, it's not Seahawks related, the Ravens offense this past week
35:20
against Brian Flores, they got annihilated in the first three possessions.
35:25
Three three-and-outs.
35:27
Hmm.
35:27
Flores with backups on the field or…
35:29
I mean, some of which are very talented guys.
35:32
they took us apart.
35:35
On the fourth possession, our offensive coordinator goes under
35:37
center for every play but one, some of which are pass plays, right?
35:41
Play action.
35:42
And we get the, we get, 68 yards, 67 yards out of it, something like that
35:47
and we're able to generate a field goal.
35:49
And I remember watching it live thinking, "Well, how?
35:51
Why?"
35:51
You know?
35:52
Mm-hmm.
35:52
"How did that occur?"
35:54
It goes back to your question from earlier about the shotgun run game.
35:58
Some of these safeties, nickel DBs, Seattle does it, too, on defense, they
36:03
are, in particular calls reliant upon being able to see the football.
36:08
Was it handed off or not?
36:09
And when the quarterback's back is turned and under center comparatively
36:13
you have to be looking longer because the quarterback's back is turned.
36:18
Simple concept.
36:19
The old football guys from 100 years ago, they did know some stuff, right?
36:23
Yeah.
36:24
Love it.
36:24
So, so, you know, to, to your point or to your question about it
36:27
you know, overall I think, I think there'll be a lot of similarities
36:31
because these structures have a lot of similarity in my opinion.
36:35
And the one thing to add, not to bring up a nightmare scenario, but let's
36:38
say you had to go two or three games without Sam Darnold, the under center
36:43
game can safeguard things with a backup quarterback, in my opinion, better than
36:49
a shotgun, reliant offense does.
36:53
It's a very generic statement and some people won't agree with it.
36:56
No problem with that.
36:57
But, you're gener- you're hopefully training a guy in Drew Lock or Jalen
37:03
Milroe, whatever your preference is, to be able to execute as many things as possible
37:08
if they had to get into a football game and win it in the regular season.
37:12
And I just think at this point in time, some of those offenses
37:14
Shanahan, McVay, Ben Johnson, they're a little bit more maybe the word is
37:20
QB friendly in one way or another.
37:23
Mm-hmm.
37:23
Yeah.
37:23
Forgive me for taking your question someplace you didn't-
37:25
Clinton: No, it's g-
37:25
… Coach Derek: necessarily maybe want it to go.
37:27
Clinton: No, it's all good.
37:28
It's, it's perfect.
37:28
You, you answered it and there's more tributaries from it, too, because
37:31
you know, you mentioned Lock.
37:32
We're talking quarterbacks.
37:33
I wanna, wanna talk about a couple of quarterbacks.
37:36
But, you know, Lock was under center to start, to start the game.
37:38
And the, the, the nice part about Lock is, you know, we know what we have with him.
37:42
So if he has to come in and run this offense, we know…
37:44
We've seen it.
37:44
We know he can produce.
37:45
Now, we also know at some point in the game there's gonna be a
37:48
there's gonna be a YOLO ball or two that you're like, "Dude, what?
37:51
Why did you throw that ball?
37:52
Where, why?
37:53
Just eat it or just dirt it," you know?
37:56
Do whatever.
37:57
Take a checkdown.
37:58
And he's gonna YOLO the ball once or twice a game because that's Drew Lock.
38:01
so you live with that because…
38:03
But I love the, the concept of If we do have to go a spell
38:07
without Sam, do we trust…
38:09
To me, it comes down to trust.
38:10
Do you trust the quarterback to get under center and operate basically the same?
38:15
You know, like, for all intents and purposes.
38:17
Obviously, different levels of, decision-making are gonna be there, and
38:21
some variances in arm strength and all that stuff, but, but Lock's got a hose.
38:25
So, so I think we'll…
38:27
I think as Seahawks fans, we're quite happy with Drew Lock as a, as a backup
38:32
and we don't wanna see him on the field, but, but are like, "Hey, if
38:35
he's gotta go in and win a game or two, because Sam tweaks an ankle
38:39
we're pretty confident he can do it."
38:40
Now, the QB three, there's a lot of consternation in the Pacific
38:44
Northwest right now about Jalen Milroe.
38:46
So I want to actually…
38:47
You know, you know I'm a UConn guy, so the quarterback from, from UConn
38:51
who was a UDFA, Fagnano- Mm-hmm… he gets picked up by the Ravens, and
38:55
all last year I'm telling anybody who would listen, I'm like, "Saw the guy
38:58
live, watched a lot of UConn games."
39:00
I'm like, "Man, I think this guy…"
39:01
And by the way, Seahawks fans, stick around.
39:03
I'm gonna turn this back to Milroe.
39:05
But I'm like, "Look, I think this guy's feet are really good
39:08
and I think his decision-making seemed to be, to me, NFL quality."
39:12
And I'm watching the guy and I'm like, "This guy seems like a Chad Pennington
39:15
with- Chad Pennington-type player with even a better arm," because
39:18
that wasn't Chad's strong suit.
39:20
And to me, once you start talking about, like, Chad plus, you're
39:23
entering Brock Purdy territory, and that's a good quarterback.
39:26
Now, obviously he's played two preseason games.
39:29
Coach Derek: Right.
39:29
Clinton: But I just want, wanna understand from your perspective
39:31
watching the Ravens as a Ravens fan, knowing ball like you do, what are you
39:36
seeing from a, a young quarterback?
39:38
Doesn't, doesn't even matter that it's a guy from UConn, but seeing from
39:41
a young quarterback that you think he's doing well that maybe we should
39:44
be watching Milroe in game three?
39:46
Coach Derek: No, I think it's all related.
39:48
You know, I think your connection of those two players, those two, the production
39:53
that they have or, or have not had in a preseason, I think that is all related
39:56
and it, and it comes down to the decision, after the week three preseason game
40:00
which is, you know, which quarterback or which players do we leave on the
40:04
roster and which do we leave unprotected?
40:06
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
40:07
Coach Derek: it's a huge discussion, by Baltimore Ravens fans right now.
40:10
Tyler Huntley, very reliable backup quarterback.
40:13
We, made the mistake of letting him go, I think, after the '24 season
40:19
and he ended up back in Baltimore after being in Miami and in Cleveland, and
40:23
we brought him back and he won two football games for us last year, one
40:26
against the Bears on, at home, and one against the Packers on the road.
40:30
So, you know, invaluable- Mm-hmm… to have a guy that, you know, you're
40:34
you're comparing or talking about Drew Lock in that type of role.
40:38
Fagnano, Milroe Okay, so Flagnano's super calm.
40:43
Like, nothing bothers the guy.
40:45
that was Joe Flacco in Baltimore for, for- Hmm… the, the
40:49
amount of time that he was there.
40:50
And, and it annoyed some people.
40:52
Flacco was so calm, he was so…
40:54
It was almost like the moment didn't…
40:57
Not only did it not bother him, but to hear him talk about it and watch him
41:00
it looked like it didn't matter to him.
41:02
He was that calm guy.
41:04
And so now Ravens fans are calling this guy Joe Flagnano.
41:09
Clinton: That's pretty good.
41:10
Coach Derek: They're, they're conflating the two names.
41:12
I probably screwed it up.
41:13
But he's a, you know, he's a ver- he was older prospect, 25.
41:17
I actually remember people talking about him in high school.
41:22
Hmm.
41:22
He's from Williamsport, Pennsylvania.
41:24
My wife's from about 40 minutes from there, and a couple of
41:27
coaches that I know in the area, I remember them talking about him.
41:29
He went to Maine, ends up at Yukon.
41:32
six- at Yukon, 648 pass attempts, six interceptions.
41:38
Clinton: Right.
41:40
Coach Derek: The same number of pass attempts, he had 48 touchdowns
41:43
including 28 to one ratio as a senior.
41:47
Of course, UConn is not Alabama, where Jalen Milroe
41:50
went, but the decision-making.
41:52
And it's so crazy that you mention his, his feet and his lower half.
41:57
I don't know if you watched my video that I put out on
41:59
Fagnano a couple of nights ago.
42:01
I compared him to JJ McCarthy.
42:03
Clinton: Hmm.
42:05
Coach Derek: And the comparison I made was, baseball guys aren't gonna like this
42:09
or people who say they're baseball fans.
42:11
JJ McCarthy reminds me of so many Major League Baseball pitchers now where there
42:16
is no leg drive, there's no utilization of their lower body at all, and everything is
42:22
from here up as far as generating power.
42:25
And that's one of the reasons, not the only one, but it's one of the reasons
42:27
why you get so many of these guys, yeah, they're throwing the hell out
42:30
of the baseball, but four years later they've had one Tommy John, six years
42:34
later they've had two, and they're done.
42:36
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
42:36
Coach Derek: And there's no lower body utilization at all.
42:38
That's JJ McCarthy.
42:39
JJ McCarthy is throwing a, a 98 mile an hour fastball on every single
42:42
throw 'cause everything is from the waist up or even the chest up.
42:46
Fagnano is different, incredibly balanced.
42:49
His feet and his eyes and, and his, you know, where he's looking
42:52
everything moves at the same time.
42:54
It's like textbook, to me, and a big fan of him.
42:58
So the Ravens have a third quarterback.
43:01
Ravens fan base thinks, "Hey, we would be okay if he had to get
43:05
in a game and try to win the game or, or maybe not lose it," right?
43:10
How do you feel about Jalen Milroe?
43:12
It's obviously not
43:12
Clinton: the same.
43:12
Right.
43:13
No, it's not- Right?
43:14
… it's not there.
43:14
That trust for a QB three is not there yet where you would feel comfortable.
43:20
Like with Drew, again, you f- you feel quite comfortable.
43:22
You know what you're gonna get, and he's gonna keep you in
43:24
games, he's gonna win some games.
43:25
He might, he might blow a game or two, but, but you're…
43:27
But this is a good enough team that can sustain that and absorb that.
43:30
Milroe, we're not seeing it yet.
43:32
Now, he wasn't, in the last game, before people bring out the
43:36
you know, bur- burning the, a witch at the stake here, he also
43:40
was not helped in many scenarios.
43:42
There was a couple of dr- just obvious drops.
43:44
There was some 50/50s that could've been, could've been
43:46
caught that didn't come down with.
43:48
However, didn't excuse some of the…
43:51
Really it's, it's less about decision-making.
43:53
It's some of that, but it's ball placement.
43:55
You know, the ball- Yeah.
43:56
No, I agree… the ball placement is like, it's like, hey man, if I know
44:00
you're staring down a linebacker, but if, but if you, if you L- led on the first
44:04
interception, if that's where it needs to be, it's probably not being intercepted.
44:08
It's like a, it's not an easy interception.
44:10
It's probably not- Yeah… being intercepted, it m- might be batted down.
44:12
Second one is just com- is just completely just a miss.
44:15
He misses, he misses Henderson, and he falls down, but that's
44:19
not, in my opinion, not his fault, 'cause he's going one direction and
44:21
trying to reach back the other way.
44:23
Trying to go back, yeah.
44:23
Just a complete miss, and he sailed it a bit, because of that.
44:26
Ball's thrown
44:26
Coach Derek: on the wrong side in, in, in
44:28
Clinton: both- Correct… of
44:28
Coach Derek: those situations, in my opinion.
44:30
Clinton: Exactly.
44:30
It, it is- That, that's ex- you said it concisely.
44:32
The ball was, the ball placement was the wrong side.
44:34
Yeah.
44:34
So, you know, where you see really good feet from Fagnano at, at all
44:39
pretty much all times, I think Seahawks fans that are watching, Milroe are
44:43
like, we had a gentleman named Mookie Alexander who runs Field, Field
44:46
Goals, the SB Nation, print.
44:48
Yeah, they're
44:48
Coach Derek: great.
44:49
Clinton: Yeah, they, Mookie's awesome.
44:50
He was on with us, and his observation really hit me.
44:53
He goes, "You know," he's like, "Milroe's really fast running forward."
44:57
And meaning, he's like, he's not crisp sometimes to get to his setup, to get
45:02
to his, his, his, just his back to, to drop backs are not always crisp.
45:07
Sometimes it looks great.
45:08
Sometimes he's super crisp, and frankly, when he is, that ball's
45:12
usually on the money, coach.
45:13
And then sometimes it looks a little, like a little sluggish.
45:17
Whether it is or not, it appears to be a little sluggish on, on, you know, film
45:21
or live, and then the whole operation's a tad off, and he gets in trouble with that.
45:27
So, you know, I think the juxtaposition versus some being super crisp that
45:31
you're seeing with Fagnano, and us seeing a little bit of like, man
45:34
why can't you always just drop back the way with, with super intent?
45:39
And the results, may vary, and for us right now, they are.
45:43
So to answer the question, no, I don't think there's a Seahawks
45:45
fan out there that would be like, "Yes, I'm comfy with Milroe."
45:49
Now it's, now the, the vision and the conversation is what's crept into the
45:54
ether is do you keep him on the 53?
45:57
And there's this, this conversation about, well, the value of a 53rd dude.
46:02
I'm personally of the opinion that you have a deep enough roster the
46:05
way the, the practice squad is treated nowadays with veterans.
46:08
You have more flexibility than you used to have, and the upside for Milroe
46:12
is still so high that, yes, you keep him and you let him continue to learn
46:18
in a really good low-pressure system.
46:20
I wonder if you have a take on, on what you would do if you were John Schneider.
46:24
Coach Derek: No, I mean, that's, that's an interesting, you know…
46:26
It's, it's gonna be extremely interesting for every NFL franchise, but in particular
46:30
the ones like, you know, the Seahawks, the Rams, the, the real Buffalo
46:35
hopefully the Ravens, you know- Mm-hmm.
46:38
Right… the real Super Bowl contenders, the teams that are shooting for one
46:40
realistically, that- Yeah… that really actually think they can do it.
46:43
Everybody says they are, but, you know.
46:45
So- It's
46:45
Clinton: it's August.
46:46
They all say that.
46:47
Coach Derek: So.
46:47
Right.
46:48
So as far as Milroe goes, I feel like the first interception
46:54
is a play that's kind of handed to him by the offensive coordinator.
46:57
I talked about it a little bit earlier.
46:59
Clinton: Yeah.
46:59
Coach Derek: A boundary side bunch, like it just doesn't stay that way.
47:04
You know?
47:04
It just doesn't.
47:05
As a, as a defensive person, my mindset is defensive, focusing
47:08
seeing the game from a defensive side.
47:10
I see an offense lined up, line up, and they're bunching to the boundary.
47:13
I'm like, "All right, we're gonna get motion, so it's three by one now.
47:16
I know it's gonna end up two by two."
47:17
And it didn't.
47:18
You know, it's a running back- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm… to the field, and the
47:20
receiver kind of curling the middle.
47:22
A little bit of an unusual concept for me.
47:24
I, I feel like you just throw the ball to the running back in the flats
47:28
and let him run onto it, and then- And
47:29
Clinton: let me, let me stop, 'cause you, you mentioned it earlier, but like
47:31
I think your point there is that from a coach's perspective, what you're seeing
47:35
is they're giving him- A kind of a free square like, hey, go to the running back
47:40
because we're not balancing this out.
47:42
Yes.
47:42
And it's, it's g- it should be open in the flat because of the way this is set up.
47:46
So a bit of a free square that you think he either missed or, or maybe ignored
47:51
if, if it- Yeah… if it's worse.
47:52
I
47:52
Coach Derek: could be wrong.
47:53
I could be wrong.
47:54
And then, and like the
47:54
Clinton: receiver route- But that's what you're seeing though.
47:56
Did I capture that?
47:56
Yes.
47:56
Okay, cool.
47:57
Coach Derek: Yes.
47:57
Yes.
47:57
That's…
47:57
The receiver route even is like taking you to the middle of the field-
48:00
Right… so if the inside linebacker r- goes with the back to the field
48:04
that's not a field side concept.
48:05
That-
48:06
Clinton: Mm-hmm
48:06
… Coach Derek: with one receiver and the running back, that's
48:08
a boundary side concept.
48:09
And so, it's not snag flat, it's like curl flat, but the receiver's really
48:14
running in the middle of the field.
48:15
You know, so I feel like he could throw that football.
48:18
And then the, the actual throw that he attempts later on to 87, I mean, that
48:22
r- get the ball to more towards the middle away from that linebacker- Right
48:27
and you've got a catch, right?
48:28
Yeah.
48:28
You move on.
48:29
And then conversely, the other interception that's late, I n- I know
48:32
it's, you know, really late in the game, he makes a good decision.
48:37
Clinton: Yep.
48:38
Coach Derek: He looks, Milroe looks to his left, and the nickel DB kind
48:43
of hedges on a little under, under route by number one, so the nickel's
48:46
gonna be able to react to that.
48:47
So okay, moves on.
48:48
Boom, moves on.
48:49
And then comes back to the other side, and I think that throw is there.
48:53
There's lane- Yeah… space for it, and it's just moving to his right.
48:56
So, what'd you say the gentleman's name was?
48:58
Mookie Alexander from Field Gulls?
48:59
That…
48:59
Oh
48:59
Clinton: yeah, Mookie.
49:00
Yes, on, on Field Gulls.
49:01
Coach Derek: Yeah.
49:01
Correct.
49:01
Yeah.
49:01
So I mean, that's j- you know, hey, all of your throws are not gonna
49:04
be stationary with your feet under.
49:06
You're gonna have to get like a major…
49:07
I always say quarterbacks are like a Major League Baseball shortstop.
49:10
Mm-hmm.
49:10
They gotta be able to throw moving to the right, moving to the left
49:13
retreating, coming forward, you know, underhand, sidearm, whatever.
49:16
And it looks to me like maybe Milroe His accuracy, widens or
49:25
he becomes less accurate the more that he's moving side to side.
49:30
And so there's less control over his body positioning, perhaps
49:34
his u- usage of the lower half.
49:37
to some extent when you're moving to your side, the lower
49:40
half becomes nonexistent.
49:41
It, it doesn't matter necessarily, it's all upper half.
49:43
And so that throw to me, that, that was disappointing 'cause
49:46
I'm like, "That guy's open."
49:47
Mm-hmm.
49:48
You know?
49:48
I'm talking about the second interception.
49:49
Yep
49:49
Clinton: for sure.
49:49
For sure.
49:49
Coach Derek: that one really bother- really bothered me.
49:52
I felt like ball positioning, ball location, excuse me, was
49:55
an issue as well later on.
49:56
The incompletion to Arroyo in the third quarter is not a bad throw.
50:00
It's not.
50:01
It's against the will linebacker, it's the right decision, let's take it.
50:04
But, I feel like that ball could be another foot or foot and a half
50:08
or two feet further to let Arroyo catch it and the will not make a play.
50:12
Clinton: Yeah.
50:12
Coach Derek: The one to White, 82 White- Yep
50:16
that's up the right sideline- Yep… that ball's under-thrown.
50:18
That ball's under-thrown in my opinion- Yeah… and, and not in a good spot.
50:21
That, that brings the DB back into play.
50:23
H- the DB's at a deficit in my opinion, and you brought the DB, you
50:28
did him a favor instead of that ball being further towards the sideline
50:30
or even a little bit more up field.
50:32
Does that make sense?
50:33
Clinton: Oh, it totally does.
50:33
And I, I thought, you know, Adam agreed with, agreed with you that it was
50:37
under-thrown when we looked at it live.
50:39
And I, I was a little more critical of, of Cody 'cause he kind of had a…
50:43
not, not a great game, but, you know, he's been a good Seahawk.
50:45
now it not being a great ball, Cody's still a big wide receiver so go…
50:50
you know, you get a 50/50 chance, go up, go up there and make a play.
50:53
Mm-hmm.
50:53
That's what you're paid for.
50:54
But-
50:54
Coach Derek: Aggressively go
50:55
Clinton: after it, right.
50:55
But yeah.
50:56
And, and but to your point…
50:56
but he, but he missed it, and that happens also, right?
50:58
Mm-hmm.
50:58
I mean, the, the best drop, drop a ball sometimes.
51:01
But, but to your point, there was enough, enough, unfortunately
51:06
consistency, and this is a negative, of Millroad j- just missing the mark over
51:11
and over again with ball placement.
51:13
And, and that's- Right… and, you know- Water… and we're
51:15
gonna- Water net dispersal- Yeah.
51:17
Right, right… of where the balls are and where they need to be.
51:18
You know, I think when a hurricane's coming to shore, they got the
51:20
cone of indifference, right?
51:21
So you got that big old cone.
51:23
It's a little wide for what you want from an NFL quarterback.
51:25
Now, the nice part is I think the Seahawks are gonna be patient again
51:30
and realize the guy has lots of talent.
51:32
And if these are things- Yeah… if, if the execution is…
51:36
I mean, if the decision-making is mainly good, like you said, the first
51:39
interception, you, you know, you, you said it very clearly, you
51:43
don't think that was a good decision.
51:44
And I, now hearing your point of view and understanding what you see from, you
51:47
know, your vantage point and experience, that's really cool to understand.
51:51
and I, you know, I agree with you.
51:53
I'll say, "Hey man, that makes sense to me."
51:55
But most often it's like, okay, the decision-making was actually pretty good.
51:59
He just misexecuted.
52:01
And I realize you don't always make up that gap But sometimes you do.
52:05
You know, sometimes in the NFL you can- Yeah… sincerely improve there.
52:10
And so, you know, I'll take away from this conversation that the concept for
52:14
I think, most Seahawks fans are like, "Hey, we don't need to rush this."
52:18
That we just came off a stint with Geno Smith and now Sam Darnold, so maybe of all
52:23
the organizations in the league who wanna be patient with a quarterback, maybe we
52:27
should have a little bit more grace in…
52:29
So that's where I fall right now.
52:30
But the- Yeah, that
52:31
Coach Derek: makes sense
52:32
… Clinton: but the echo chamber or the, the, the chorus is getting louder
52:35
about, "Hey, he's not gonna be the guy."
52:37
So it's…
52:38
The nice part is there's another game coming up, actually on Friday
52:41
with Kansas City, so yes, it'll be a vanilla Spags, but Spags vanilla is
52:45
still a, a, a banana split compared to some, some coaches out there.
52:50
So that'll be s- really cool to see, what Milroe can do.
52:54
I think he's gonna get the majority of those snaps, so that'll be
52:56
something to watch as well.
52:58
So well, Coach, it has been, it's been absolutely fantastic having you on here.
53:02
This has been a great primer.
53:03
You mentioned the Arroyo video that you just got done, so I'm assuming that'll be
53:07
up on your channel- Mm-hmm… ASAP.
53:10
This is probably gonna go out, we're recording this on Thursday.
53:12
No, that's not correct at all.
53:14
It's Tuesday.
53:14
Tuesday.
53:14
Coach, I wish it was Thursday.
53:16
Recording this on Tuesday.
53:17
this is probably gonna go out tomorrow, on Wednesday.
53:20
So I bet the Arroyo video will be hitting your channel there soon.
53:24
What else you got coming?
53:24
It went up while
53:24
Coach Derek: we were recording this.
53:25
Clinton: Oh, there.
53:27
Perfect.
53:28
We're recording this- So anybody watching this now that hasn't gone, gone, gone
53:30
over there yet, you see it on screen.
53:32
For those that are not on screen, just go search All 22
53:36
NFL Film, out on YouTube.
53:38
You'll see his channel nearly getting to 50,000 subs.
53:41
So you got the Arroyo video c- already up.
53:44
any other Seahawk stuff that you got, fixing to do heading
53:47
into game three of the preseason?
53:49
Coach Derek: Yeah, I was probably gonna have something up about Milroe and Lock.
53:51
I just, I had only cut about 8 or 10 plays, talking about
53:55
some of the issues we discussed.
53:56
I will mention this, that I think the carryover from
53:59
Darnold being in San Francisco-
54:02
Clinton: Yeah
54:02
… Coach Derek: one season, '23, I, I think.
54:05
Clinton: Yeah
54:05
Coach Derek: I think that's right.
54:05
Then Minnesota '24.
54:07
Yep.
54:07
Then Seattle last year.
54:08
And then Darnold and Milroe being in the same quarterback room last
54:11
year, there is the opportunity for Milroe to have, by proxy-
54:16
Clinton: Absolutely
54:17
Coach Derek: a connection to, Fleury in terms of the terminology relationship.
54:22
I think the ratio might not be one to one, Kubiak to Fleury.
54:27
it might be
54:31
1.2
54:31
to 1 or 1.08
54:31
to 1, something like that.
54:33
And so I think that's important is that there's a lot of carryover.
54:36
in my opinion, the 49er system in some ways is a little bit easier
54:43
on quarterbacks with certain things.
54:44
I'll link, I'll send you the link.
54:45
You can put it up if you want.
54:47
Kurt Benkert, a former NFL quarterback who breaks down the game really quickly.
54:52
He's got instant recognition of things, and he played for LaFleur
54:57
and he played for Shanahan, as he was in those quarterback
55:00
rooms, and he knows the systems.
55:02
A amazing point he made a couple of years ago, I will send you
55:06
the link and you can share it-
55:07
Clinton: Please
55:07
Coach Derek: about the difference between the 49er structure and the, and the
55:11
and the Fleury, maybe even McVay system.
55:13
And in, and that way it could, theoretically should, help out a guy
55:17
like Milroe to have to do a little bit less pre-snap, if you will.
55:21
So, I think what really needs to happen is he needs to have a good game.
55:24
He needs to play well-
55:25
Clinton: Mm-hmm
55:26
… Coach Derek: you know, to change the opinion of Seahawks fans, who
55:30
deservedly so, they wanna see progress.
55:32
They wanna see momentum and moving forward, and he, you know, he does need to
55:35
demonstrate that, in particular preseason game again- week three, you know, given
55:39
who he's gonna be facing and who he's not.
55:41
Clinton: Yeah.
55:42
Well, I love all that.
55:42
We will definitely put that link in the, in the description, so
55:45
watch, watch for that in this video.
55:47
Coach, we would love, love, love to find a week mid-season at some point to bring
55:51
you back in to kind of do it again, and say, "Okay, what are we seeing now?"
55:54
And we also know like, "Hey, thank you for coming on and talking the
55:57
offensive side of the ball mostly."
55:59
We know that you really love the defensive side of the ball, so that'll
56:02
be interesting to check in too, because can a Super Bowl champion be on a path
56:07
to repeat, and what does Mike Macdonald gotta do to stay a step ahead of an NFL
56:12
that catches up really, really quickly?
56:13
You know, so that'll be- Absolutely
56:14
Coach Derek: man.
56:15
Clinton: Look forward to it.
56:15
That'd be great… that'd be a really great…
56:16
Yeah.
56:16
That'd be great to have you back.
56:17
Coach, have an amazing start to your year.
56:19
Good luck to your Ravens.
56:20
I hope…
56:21
Look, if we could sign for it now, Ravens, Seahawks, down
56:24
at SoFi, I'll buy you a beer.
56:26
How about…
56:27
How's that sound?
56:27
That'd
56:27
Coach Derek: be great, man.
56:28
Appreciate it.
56:28
Clinton: All right.
56:29
Coach Derek: Thanks guys for your time, and thanks for having me once again.
56:30
Clinton: Of course.
56:31
All right.
56:31
Thank, thank you, coach.
56:32
And to everybody else, go Hawks.