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Teaching our Youth the Christian Story · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, it's the Central Schweinfeller Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the Middle Way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology at the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking today about teaching our youth the Christian story, and we're very fortunate to have once again with us Professor Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Jos de Koch, who is a professor of practical theology, the rector at Evangelische Theologische Fakulteit, the coordinator of the Master of Teaching program there, and also the coordinator of the Research Institute for the Study of Religious Education and Youth Ministry.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Jost completed his doctorate at Rodbaud Universiteit in Nijmegen, the Netherlands.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: He has had extensive involvement in academic settings and has been involved in several research institutes on youth work in Belgium and the Netherlands.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: For example, he's been involved at the Research Institute on Youth Church and Culture at the Protestant Theological University in Amsterdam.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And now is, of course, the chair of the Research Institute for the Study of Religious Education and Youth Ministry at ETF.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: He has volunteered in the church as an elder and as a catechist for youth.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: He's also a family man, married to his wife, Beliana, and he has three daughters.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Yos.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're glad to have you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're glad to talk about this important topic of our youth today and the importance of telling them the Christian story.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering how you became interested in studying youth ministry and also in the education of youth.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question to start with.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my first studies were in pedagogy and educational science.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: So my interest in the first instance was in the phenomenon of learning in general.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: So how do people learn?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: How do young people learn?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: And how can we enhance that learning by education in schools, etc.?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that was my first interest and also my specialization in my first studies.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then I took my second studies, and these were in theology.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: There, the central concept of interest is the concept of faith.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was during the years I did my studies in theology that I became aware of the learning factor in faith.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So there I started actually my interest in what we might call faith learning or learning faith.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is there something to learn when it comes to the Christian faith?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Does it help actually to provide learning activities for young people in churches?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: What do we mean with faith learning?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is faith not something that is given by God and it is God's Spirit?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Is there something to add to from the part of human beings?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so these kinds of questions are raised in this whole area.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: But it started with my interest in learning as a phenomenon in everyday life, uh so to say.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: A theological question was next, and then I ended up as a religious educator.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: And now for years, this is my main concern in the academic study of faith practices of young people, and also well, of course, also in daily life, having a family and engaged in church, yeah.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you've been engaged in church as a volunteer and also with three uh young daughters.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that contributed to this too, as well, didn't it?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so everyday family life is kind of inspirational, of course, and not only for this theme, of course, but for many things.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, that also means that you reflect on what is the contribution of church to faith learning, faith formation, what is the contribution of family life?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: What is the contribution of school?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: What about peers?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: How do we weigh these different kinds of contribution?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: To whom do we have to look when it comes to the challenges of faith formation?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: One of the fundamental questions I really like is from whom is the child?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: So who is in charge of the child?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, no one, in a way, no one is in charge of the child.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot say there is something or someone who's in charge who has or owns the child we are raising.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: But it's a complex answer saying something like this: okay, there is a state, there is a school, there are, of course, there are the parents, but there is also the judge, you know, and there's the child himself, of course, being authentic, in the end, an independent individual.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so, and in this complex of answers, uh, we also have to search for okay, what does it mean to raise children in faith in a church community and in youth ministry activities?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very complex question nowadays, isn't it?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: With church attendance uh being much less than it was from previous years.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: One of the nice things about having this discussion across the Atlantic at this point is some of the things in uh Belgium and the Netherlands are uh maybe uh a little bit more advanced than they are here in the States, uh, as far as uh church attendance and its decline.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: But what a percentage uh would you say in uh the Netherlands and Belgium, what percentage of youth are in church on a Sunday morning?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: The answer to that question depends on on what kind of church you you would look at during the Sunday mornings or afternoons.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in general, and and that's the main challenging issue, I think there is a decline of church attendance and in in both countries.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: This is especially true for the Netherlands, and I have to say that for Belgium it it has a kind of another history, really another history with Protestantism than the Netherlands.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: If we look at the figures now as they are now, uh we see that it's about only 2% of the Belgian population is a Protestant evangelical population, so only 2%.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you can imagine that 2% doesn't mean that all children, all children in these families that are represented by these 2%, that all children are attending church services at Sunday.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: We cannot even say that all children are involved in in youth activities in these churches.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: In the Netherlands, it's about, well, when it comes to uh Protestantism, it's about 15% of the population.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but we know that it's not 15% of the population who is attending church at Sunday.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: To say, okay, what percentage of children are involved?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: I do not know exactly.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: It differs from one to the other community.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: But these general uh figures say something that it's a minority, Protestant evangelical faith communities in these countries.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And this is also challenging these communities themselves, but also religious education in schools.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: It also challenges how young people develop themselves in in these countries, being a minority and challenged by developments, questions, and and other religious traditions in the direct environment that also challenges youth ministry.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Declining attendance of adults, but also with the youth, it makes this subject uh particularly challenging.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Then yeah, well, many parents are saying and expressing, and also youth workers are expressing this this concern.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: They have a shared observation of and and experience of difficulty to bring church and young people together.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: There was a time that churches were saying, well, uh, how can we get young people engaged?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: How can we bring them to church?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: But that's uh quite a limited view on connecting youth with church because then you see a church as something that's stable, and young people should connect with the church, and they're not connecting with the church, and we should think about how we can uh motivate them.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Children are a fundamental part of church.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's not only the question of how to motivate them to come to church, as if church is something stable, but it has also to do with how to develop church, how to be church, how to innovate church, how to well actually to be church in a way that includes children, that there is an inclusive atmosphere.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's currently uh really a challenge.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, some type of plan to motivate children then becomes very important from your perspective.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but because the the question on how to motivate is raised in a context where there is a kind of well, you know, a kind of a tradition to hand over to the next generation.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: But from my perspective, the engagement of children and young people has also to do with that they are church, so they also have with their actual experiences and actual talents and actual uh stance in life, they also hand over something to other generations.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's that transformational role in in church.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's not only a question on uh how to motivate children, but also a question on okay, how to how to give space to everyone, all generations, to to be that and to be church.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: I sense that you've experienced this yourself through your own uh growing up in church life.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Curious if you could share how you were instructed in the Christian story.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I was raised uh in the Netherlands in what you can call a simple Christian family.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very glad with that and thankful for that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: So that means that I was raised in a way that there was regular Bible reading uh at home.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: We attended church regularly.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: I had also the possibility to be engaged in in Sunday school, in youth work, not only in the local church community, but also later on in my teenage years by attending uh summer, so these kinds of activities.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And and also the schools I attended, so primary school, also secondary school, these were Christian schools, uh, which didn't mean that there were only Christian peers at these schools.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: These were typical open Christian schools, like being okay, we we have a Christian identity, but uh everyone is is welcome, so so to say.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that was also important that I was not isolated in a way, Christian community, but there were regular encounters with others and with with other peers uh coming from other traditions or no tradition at all.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: But but for me, uh especially the well, I think all stages of of these early life were important for me.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Take two uh important, impactful uh moments or moments of phases.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I would say the first one has to do with this phase of being five, six, seven, eight, nine years old, you know, and and sitting in church next to my grandfather and uh and with the family also, but also my grandfather.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so physically sitting down in church with grandfather next to you, and and that fundamental experience it's not about the sermons, it's not about the songs, it's not about uh scripture in a way, at least not about scripture as as it was read in in the church, but it was this whole experience of having a great time sitting down there in church with relatives, with your grandfather, with your family, and that's kind of formational.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the first example, and the second example is from these teenage years, you know, that there were moments during the week that you came together in ketages classes or in youth work in the weekends, where you met peers with the same struggles, same questions, and the same interest in God and Christianity and to discuss things, but also to be together there again, to be together, to learn more and to experience more about the faith.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: I can see that how those would be very formative experiences with the entire family seated together, and then also these uh subgroups to talk about uh the faith.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever have times individually with small groups with the minister as uh you prepared to join the church?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And what was that like?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, not regularly and not many, but there were small numbers of moments that you had these discussions with individual discussions with the minister, but that was these were not that crucial, you know, these were also most of the times informal conversations.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that there are people who would say, Well, because I I gave two examples of what are what were impactful moments for me.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: If you ask this question to others, there are people who say, Well, there were these moments with individual ministers, and that had an impact on me.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: No, that was not the case in my situation.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's quite important what the ministers do in the Jewish community.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, why do you think this time in particular is so very important to uh help our youth learn the Christian story?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think that at least in our context, that young people, but also adults, adults alike, but let us focus now on young people.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Also, young people need places to have encounters with other peers, but also with ministers, with adults from the Church community to express well to be there, to be seen, and also to express their deepest questions.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think a challenge nowadays is that these spaces, that these possibilities for encounters and to have a good conversation on an existential level on okay, how is it to be someone in this world and what does it mean to be Christian?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Young people need these places.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: The role of many schools is to address questions like okay, how to have an inter-faith dialogue, how do we live together in harmony?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's excellent.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in favor of that.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: But then there is an extra pressure, so to say, on churches and its families to give room for young people who want to be rooted in a particular faith tradition, in Christian tradition.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that that's a challenging thing for nowadays youth ministry.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Not only to address these questions coming from an individual existential level, but also to give space for young people to address questions with regard to church.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because as I see cateches or religious education in churches, my definition of it is that's a place where you can, where can might be explained to each other, with each other, what you are doing in church.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a kind of a commentary.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: The most prominent learning is in the participation in the church community, participation by attending a church service, participation by having encounters with peers and with adults in the church, by doing something together, by praying together, well, having these summer camps together, you know, that that's where the learning is happening.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Catages or instructional moments of instruction are moments, places where you can raise all kinds of questions that arise from these practices.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that's also necessary for young people because in a changing world, a rapid changing world, the whole world and the subculture of churches is raising much more questions because it's not so normal, so to say, anymore.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know, it's it's not like everyone is doing, and that's reason enough to give attention to instruction to this education.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Culture becomes more secular, there'd be more attention placed on these things.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: But some are, and what are some of the general models that some are using to instruct youth today?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's what do you see as you've done some of your study and exploration?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: I always may make a distinction between three kinds of models, and one of the models we we discussed about in um in the first part of our conversation, Drake, and that was this handing over the transition to the next generation.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then the um religious education in churches or in youth ministry or cadet is about transporting what we know as a church, what we believe as a church to a next generation.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's kind of a behavioral model.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Saying, well, the next generation has to learn how we do things in church and how we believe and what we believe.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a kind of a package we deliver to the next generation.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a behavioral model.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: A second model I observe is kind of the opposite around, where we say no, not the tradition in the church is key to learning, but the own questions that young people have is the key to learning.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: So this model is a kind of developmental model where categesis or religious education is about helping young people to develop their own stance in life, to develop their own conviction, to develop their own idea of God, sense in life, etc.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that's also a prominent model where churches help young people to, you know, to explore who they are themselves in a way and how they can make sense in life.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then there is a third model because these two models I just mentioned, they are dissimilar because of the key of learning.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: And in the one model, the key is in the tradition, in the other model, the key is in the own questions of young people.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: But there is also a similarity in both models.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: The learning is about interaction or a kind of encounter between the teacher and the learner.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: The learning is a kind of happening in the interaction between these two.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: When you visualize these two models, you see a room where a teacher and a couple of uh learners, young people come together and have a nice hour together.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And in the one model, it's it's the teacher who is more dominant, you know, handing over the tradition, and in the other model, the learners are much more dominant and setting the agenda.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: But in both models, there is this kind of uh a separate room, and and you can, you know, you can see them in churches, these separate rooms where the instruction happens, and there people come together, and there it's in the interaction between the teacher and the learner.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now, in the third model, I observe, and it's not only a model I observe, but it's a core model in tradition too, is what I call the apprenticeship model.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, we talked about this model when I said, well, the key of learning is happening in the participation in the church community.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the third model is about participation, and here we see that learning is a quality of community.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: The mere fact that you are together as a community results in learning.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: It cannot be thought of without learning.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so learning is inherent, it's a quality in being together as a church community.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: But why do you call it an apprenticeship model that this has to do with the classical vision of okay?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Also, faith learning has to do with experience.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And there are in the community there are members who are more experienced in living a faithful life, living as a Christian.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: It is not their knowledge because they are more authoritative than younger ones, they're just more experienced.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: But the learning is to do something together and to look at each other and to to observe each other and to learn, mutually learn from each other.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And like it is in apprenticeships, also the novelties can bring something to the table.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: In organizations, we call this innovation.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Much innovation comes from new members in the company who come in and observe how things are organized or happening, and they say, Well, I have a strange idea, maybe I've a strange idea, but let's see if it's if it can work out, you know, and and that this this innovative thing we also need in in churches to listen well and to observe well uh the young people and ask ourselves the question of does this help the development of our church?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a transformational kind of model.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: But what I'm I find interesting in this third model is the key for learning.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that in church, too often we think of learning in terms of instruction, but I think that learning in church is about participation and experiencing and living in community.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's by that way that we can you know share knowledge, etc.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not the other way around.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: And since you uh find this uh participation model uh particularly fruitful at this at this time, yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm reflecting on this model often the past years, because in indeed the particular situation of the church in our context asks for this kind of a model.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: You think some of the major goals should be in the instruction of youth if you're taking um well, either of these models?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh in fact, maybe that's one of a question is do each of these models have the same goal?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I I think that the the models are about how you how you arrange your your learning situation, so to say.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can have different goals in each model, you know.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: That is another kind of question.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: What are you aiming at with your religious education?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: What are you aiming at in catechisos?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it's quite interesting to see also a diversity in goals.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: This is a diversity you can see in all these models.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there is this classical aim I just uh I already mentioned, like okay, young people have to learn about how, well, about the status quo, you know, how we do things in church at the moment and what do we believe.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: This has to not only to do with uh knowledge from scripture, but also a knowledge of church history and also of how we express our faith.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: So the the aim of knowledge, but also skills like Bible reading skills, that's one of the um aims uh we observe.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Another aim has to do with experience.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: This is also a possibility.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: So the aim of religious education is to experience God or to experience love or to experience a kind of community, you know.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there are different kinds of expressions in this regard, but you know, the the aim is on the level of experience.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: One other goal I often observe when looking at practices of youth ministry and cadges is the goal of well, social interaction and forming an own opinion when you enter in these spaces, these rooms in churches where the instruction happens, you know, when you enter in, but most of the time you see a table, uh and uh a couple of tables and and people sitting around and they are talking, they are discussing.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the main questions in the middle of the table is okay, how do I have to think about something?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: What is a good opinion?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what do I think of it?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: From my perspective, it's too often about these kinds of questions.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, this is a legitimate aim to help people, to help young people, to think of okay, what is my Opinion about this particular issue.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then and a fourth kind of category when it comes to aims is well what I would say identity development.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's kind of another perspective on the question of what is the aim.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: The aim of religious education is identity development, is interesting because, from my perspective at least, it's quite important to see young people as individuals who develop themselves as persons.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: So you are not only in religious education in Catherines in youth ministry, you are not only engaged in transposing knowledge to the next generation, you are not just coming together to share opinions, you are not just coming together having a good experience or something like that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do with human beings, you know, they are developing, and this has also a relationship with this existential part of life.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you should be aware of that.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's not an easy thing, it's not a small thing, it's a big thing, a very big thing.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Human beings developing themselves, and you are in charge of helping them with in that trajectory.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, from my perspective, this fourth category of identity development is quite important.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So all these categories are important in a way, and dependent on the stage of a program or uh the need of a particular uh youth or whatever you can choose for either a goal in the atmosphere of knowledge or in the atmosphere of identity development.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: And here comes the actual context and circumstances again.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: The actual circumstances ask for seeing young people as human beings developing themselves, and that's at the very core of what we are doing in church.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: That becomes a really interesting point in a secular culture that's less involved with identity formation.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of the main challenges you feel today for helping uh youth understand the Christian story and develop in it personally?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: The main challenge has to do with this apprenticeship model because the apprenticeship model can only work if there are experts in faith communities who show how it is to live a Christian life.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: We live in our context, we live in a situation where young people do not meet these kinds of experts or model figures on a large scale, of course, on a small scale, but even then, church life is organized in such a way that in many churches young people meet young people and they do not meet older people because they have these separate programs.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: So also the church is challenging itself in a kind of a way to divide purpose groups and to say, okay, this is for adults, this is for young people.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it starts at 7 in the morning, you know.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: So coming together as a family at the same time, and then after five minutes or 10 minutes or so, you the young people leave for another room, here also the other room, and to come together to do their own thing.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the core challenge.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, where do the encounters take place between young people and older generation who show the life that is meant by God, by Jesus Christ, to live actually?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the main challenge.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the second challenge has to do with uh because you can you might say, well, there's all always the family, you know, so your your children can experience their own parents in their own families.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: But what we observe, at least in our country, is that more and more parents they are still engaged in church life, but they themselves have their hesitations, do not have the words to express their own personal faith, do not have the knowledge to explain the critical questions of young people, you know.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: So there is also this situation of families where children cannot fully observe from their own parents or what it is to live Christian life.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that's also a challenge because as a minister, you you might have said, well, faith formation is primarily something that is meant for families, you know, that that's where the core processes are taking place.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: But we live in a context where for many children it's not the family, maybe it's the church where they can have these encounters where they can address their questions, etc.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And for some children, it's not the church, but it is the religious education classroom where they they can come in with their question or something like that, or or peers, or so it's it's quite scattered and it's fluid and it's not stable.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Role models and then also community and family and the key factor.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is a really a key challenging question for churches: how to get families engaged, how to get parents engaged, and and how to organize youth ministry while knowing that we cannot build on the parents.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this has been a very good conversation with you, uh Jos.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there are any final uh comments or words you'd like to make about your research on so far on uh youth and education.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, as a one comment maybe, and that's that's actual a research project I'm trying to launch.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: So the project description is there.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: We are looking for funds to get this project started.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it is a project on faith formation among youth.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's all about what we talked about.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's a project where we uh want to help churches and youth ministers with up-to-date knowledge on what is helpful in youth ministry practices and in particular in educational practices in churches.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, what works, what doesn't work, these kinds of issues.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Also, this issue of how to build community for young people in such a way that it's impactful in terms of their learning.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, this is a project on categories practices in Belgium and in the Netherlands, and there is a leaflet and there is our website.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so, if anyone is is interested to get engaged in it when it comes to funds, I would love to be in contact.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for uh sitting uh with us uh for this uh this interview and this conversation.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Joste Koch, uh we wish you well in your study and your uh research, and also in uh your service in the church and at ETF in Logan.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thank you, right?