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The Pretrib Rapture Myth · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Well, welcome, JB. Here we are.
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  Speaker 3: This is great love. It can't wait to talk about
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  Speaker 3: what we're going to talk about.
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  Speaker 2: And you get to be the first one. So we
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  Speaker 2: been talking about starting this podcast for a long time
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  Speaker 2: and expanding the outreach of Prophecy Watchers, and so here
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  Speaker 2: you are. As I guess we're going. Will we will
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  Speaker 2: do another section on your book. But since you're here,
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  Speaker 2: I really for us. We love the pre Tribulation rapture.
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  Speaker 2: We're dedicated to it, and so I thought it'd be
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  Speaker 2: fitting to start this first podcast because tell me your
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  Speaker 2: thoughts on this this myth, what I call this myth
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  Speaker 2: that refuses to die, the idea that the preacher rapture
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  Speaker 2: started with either Margaret McDonald or Darby in their early
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  Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds. You know, I mean, you've written a lot
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  Speaker 2: on this. Let's talk.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's it is, truly, you know, the myth
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  Speaker 3: that won't die. People just keep bringing it up. They
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  Speaker 3: hear about it on the Internet, which is just a
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  Speaker 3: you know, great source for a lot of misinformation. But
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  Speaker 3: the fact of the matter is that it has been
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  Speaker 3: widely debunked. You can trace and I had to do
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  Speaker 3: this in my doctoral studies. A belief in a two
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  Speaker 3: phase return of Christ once for the Church wants to
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  Speaker 3: come all the way and inaugurate the kingdom. You can
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  Speaker 3: trace that back in every century, all the way back
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  Speaker 3: to the first century apostles. So what happened with Darby
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  Speaker 3: and then the you know, coming out of the Reformation
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  Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century when people could start reading their
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  Speaker 3: Bibles again without being burned at the stake, and then
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  Speaker 3: the Bible started being proliferated because of the printing press.
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  Speaker 3: Then people started connecting the dots and understanding, oh, I see, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: the Christ is going to come once for the church,
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  Speaker 3: the mystery of the rapture something previously unrevealed, and then
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  Speaker 3: He's going to come again all the way to the earth.
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  Speaker 3: They saw the clear distinction through the plain normal meaning
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  Speaker 3: of the text between the circumstances surrounding Christ to return
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  Speaker 3: in the air with his return to the earth, and
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  Speaker 3: so yeah, Darby popularized what is now known as the
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  Speaker 3: spensational understanding of scripture. Uh. And he, you know, he,
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  Speaker 3: with the help of Schofield and some of the Niagara
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  Speaker 3: Bible Conferences, the whole Bible Conference movement. UH, schools like
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  Speaker 3: Moody and and PCB or philiphy Cause of the Bible
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  Speaker 3: began to proliferate it, but to claim somehow that the
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  Speaker 3: dispensational pre tribulational understanding of the rapture originated in the
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  Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds with Darby. Uh, even Margaret MacDonald didn't believe
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  Speaker 3: in really a pre trib rapture. And that's who they claim,
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  Speaker 3: you know, poisoned Darby with this crazy notion. No, no,
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  Speaker 3: she was, she was not pre trib So the whole
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  Speaker 3: every aspect of that notion that Darby listened to some
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  Speaker 3: demon possessed lady who got who filled in with lies
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  Speaker 3: about is just debunked. And it's it's frankly embarrassing that
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  Speaker 3: anybody would continue to teach that or think that.
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  Speaker 2: You know, as as as you mentioned, you get on
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  Speaker 2: the internet and it's just you. You you come to
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes you get frustrated. I try out to be frustrated,
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  Speaker 2: but you go so you need to do some homework.
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  Speaker 2: And so again they've heard something and then you know
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  Speaker 2: they're writing to us, and I give him the benefit
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  Speaker 2: of the Now, that's what love does, right, it believes,
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  Speaker 2: and so you think, okay, and they're trying to enlighten us,
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  Speaker 2: didn't you know, And we're like I said, hey, we
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  Speaker 2: covered this, you know. And of course now you've had
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  Speaker 2: the work of Tommy Ice, Doctor Tommy Ice, where he
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  Speaker 2: wrote about thirty five different pre Derby instances. We have
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  Speaker 2: William Watson's book and Dispensations Before Derby, which is a
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  Speaker 2: great book as well, highlighting some of the Puritan stuff.
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  Speaker 2: But then Lee Brainer comes along and he's doing now
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  Speaker 2: this original research in the Greek which nobody's looking at
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  Speaker 2: because it hasn't been translated in English, and he's finding
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  Speaker 2: at least a dozen more showing that this was a
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  Speaker 2: common or at least somewhat common viewpoint in the early Church.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no question. Again, like I said, every century
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  Speaker 3: you can find passing references to people who had access
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  Speaker 3: to the scripture. And we're understanding it dispensationally from a
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  Speaker 3: pre trip point. It's just that's not in dispute. So
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  Speaker 3: that's why the facts just don't measure up to those
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  Speaker 3: who who teach this myth. And it's frustrating because you
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  Speaker 3: know that we live in this age of pride. One
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  Speaker 3: of the things I talk about in my new book
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  Speaker 3: series is the spirit of pride. And these you know, unstudied,
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  Speaker 3: so called self proclaimed experts will just mock you. They'll
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  Speaker 3: they'll be dismissive. I'll be speaking at conferences and people
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  Speaker 3: in the audience during the Q and A will raise
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  Speaker 3: their hand and say, well, you know, of course that's
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  Speaker 3: your view, Doctor Hickson is based in a demonic blah
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  Speaker 3: blah blah from Darby, And I just want to get
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  Speaker 3: I get so frustrated. Try to be gracious, but I
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  Speaker 3: just want to go, you just embarrassed yourself, brothers. So
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  Speaker 3: I think the bottom line is our views always need
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  Speaker 3: to be based on and defended by scripture. Now, if
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  Speaker 3: we can't defend the scripture, okay, there's room for debate,
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  Speaker 3: But don't make up these lies about the origin of
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  Speaker 3: our view and claim that it's debunked.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that begs the other question too, because I think
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  Speaker 2: it fits with an analogy perspective in that well, clearly,
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  Speaker 2: you guys shouldn't believe in the Trinity because because the
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  Speaker 2: word doesn't appear and it was formulated in the fourth
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  Speaker 2: century or from a let's say, a Roman Catholic view
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  Speaker 2: can't believe you guys are believing in this salvation by
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  Speaker 2: faith alone, because that originated in the sixteenth century and
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  Speaker 2: you're at the end of the day. Hermaeutics isn't a
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  Speaker 2: chronological marker. It's is it in the Bible or not?
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  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, church history is important, but it's not the
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  Speaker 3: final say in the matter. You know, obviously, studying church
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  Speaker 3: history and that's your field of expertise, you want to
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  Speaker 3: you want to know kind of where the Church has
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  Speaker 3: been and so forth. But the ultimate arbitr of truth
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  Speaker 3: is what does God's words say? And so yeah, I
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  Speaker 3: mean you think back to the references to the two
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  Speaker 3: phased return of Christ throughout the last two thousand years.
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  Speaker 3: Of course they're going to be a minimal and they're
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  Speaker 3: going to be fewer of those because you had a
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  Speaker 3: period of Roman Catholic dominance where the kingdom was in place,
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  Speaker 3: the pope was the king, and ever since you know,
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  Speaker 3: Augustine and or you know that, you had this shift
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  Speaker 3: in thinking that the Bible is to be taken spiritually
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  Speaker 3: and allegorically rather than literally, grammatically historically, and so yeah,
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  Speaker 3: no argument that the prevailing view up until the you know,
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  Speaker 3: nineteenth century was an all millennial perspective, but it's what
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  Speaker 3: does the Bible say.
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  Speaker 2: Is the key. I think it's when you look at
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  Speaker 2: when you think about the reformers, you know, sixteen seventeenth
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  Speaker 2: centuries that I think about them in terms of they're
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  Speaker 2: doing their dead level best without dying, trying to rescue
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  Speaker 2: the Gospel as it relates to cercheiology. And I think
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  Speaker 2: if and they were very What I try to always
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  Speaker 2: focus on is, hey, these guys had great hermaonutics when
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  Speaker 2: it came to salvation. That's what rescued them from again
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  Speaker 2: the more of the symbolic nature of all the things
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  Speaker 2: that you come from the medieval church. So once they
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  Speaker 2: come do this, you're like, man, they didn't go the
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  Speaker 2: next step and to take that same hermaoneutic of ceciology
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  Speaker 2: and put it on eschateges.
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  Speaker 3: And they weren't even per in their so taryology.
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  Speaker 2: Agree, I agreed.
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  Speaker 3: I mean Martin Luther didn't believe James was in the
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  Speaker 3: Bible because he didn't understand the meaning of the word
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  Speaker 3: sotzo and doesn't always mean eternal salvation. In fact, fifty
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  Speaker 3: eight percent of the time it's used in scripture, it
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  Speaker 3: refers to temporal physical deliver so so yeah, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: you know, but they didn't really address eschatology because theology
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  Speaker 3: happens in a culture and a context, and as you said,
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  Speaker 3: they were dealing with centuries of influence of a sort
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  Speaker 3: of an amillennial perspective.
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  Speaker 2: So an immediate persecution.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not to mention the fact that there was
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  Speaker 3: a lot writing on what they said and wrote. So yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I think it took time after the Reformation for the
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  Speaker 3: general public to begin to really read scripture in its plain,
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  Speaker 3: normal sense and arrive at what God's word has taught
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  Speaker 3: all along a pre tribulation rapture.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have not only the Bible, which is the
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  Speaker 2: most important thing, but we have again as you mentioned
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  Speaker 2: in your doctoral thesis, that we have the historical perspective
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  Speaker 2: going back that this idea isn't anything new, so not
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  Speaker 2: at all. I hope it dies, but again I don't
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  Speaker 2: think so. I think we're going to be continuing to
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  Speaker 2: have this discussion and we will continue to show that
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  Speaker 2: that whole view is just has no.
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  Speaker 3: Merit, no non non amen yep.
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