Latest / StartUp Health NOW Podcast / How Brian Neman Has Cultivated an Award-Winning Workplace at Sanguine Biosciences

Transcript

How Brian Neman Has Cultivated an Award-Winning Workplace at Sanguine Biosciences · StartUp Health NOW Podcast

• 0:00
  [ on-hold music] You have this asset and everyone's looking to you for answers.
• 0:10
  But at the same time, yes, you have to answer, you know, uh, to those shareholders and stakeholders, but the machine that works to get there is a function of, you know, the work and collaboration of all the people.
• 0:21
  So that means that the individuals that are working at the company are really the assets, and you have to learn how to sympathize or really put yourself in their position and, uh, really think about other folks, not just yourself.
• 0:36
  [on-hold music] Welcome to Startup Health Now, the podcast where we celebrate the entrepreneurs and innovators transforming health around the world. I'm your host, Logan Plaster.
• 0:45
  My guest this week is Brian Nieman, the CEO and founder of Sanguine Biosciences, a company that joined Startup Health in twenty eighteen.
• 0:53
  Brian and his team first made a splash by bringing an at-home, on-demand business model to specimen collection for clinical trials.
• 1:01
  Instead of having to get yourself to a lab, you could tap a few buttons on your phone and a nurse or phlebotomist would show up at your house and take your blood.
• 1:09
  That business has evolved significantly over the years and grown quite a bit, which we'll get into on the call. But the spark for the interview had more to do with people than products.
• 1:18
  You see, Brian's company was just listed on the Forbes list of one hundred Best Small Workplaces and top ten in biopharma.
• 1:26
  He was on Inc.'s list of fastest growing private companies, and Comparably named him on their list of best CEOs for women and for diversity in the workplace.
• 1:35
  So I wanted to dial Brian up and learn about how he cultivates company culture, particularly in an era of remote work. It's always great to catch up with Brian, and he had loads of wisdom to share, so I hope you enjoy.
• 1:46
  [on-hold music] Brian Nieman, CEO and founder of Sanguine, thanks for joining me today, uh, on Startup Health. Thanks for having me, Logan. Good to see you.
• 1:58
  We've been following your work for the last, uh, many years, but particularly over the last five or so years, and really seen exciting growth.
• 2:06
  Saw you pop up on a couple of exciting, uh, lists this year and wanted to check back in with you and learn about, you know, what the last year looked like for Sanguine and just learn a little bit about how you run your business.
• 2:17
  So, uh, why don't you start with just re-familiarizing our audience with what Sanguine is and what you're building over there? Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:26
  So, uh, Sanguine, what we're doing is we are making it easier for patients to participate in research all the way through digitizing the consent process, home visits, and, uh, a very personalized approach.
• 2:41
  And through that ease of administration and, uh, convenience and transparency comes, uh, speed, additional data collection and, uh, uh, really just better research for those, uh, researchers at academ-academic institutions, universities, and pharmaceutical companies discovering new life-changing therapies.
• 3:02
  So yeah, that's our business and, uh, the past, uh- What does that look like-- what does that look like, uh, on the ground for the individual taking part in a clinical trial? Yeah.
• 3:12
  So, um, you know, we, we work in both, uh, preclinical and clinical trials, and the difference there is that in preclinical, uh, studies, really specimen, just blood or urine or, you know, th-th-- different specimen like that is required versus a clinical trial.
• 3:29
  Um, they're gonna require, you know, many more activities, maybe infusion or injection of a drug, things like that. Uh, for a participant, the process has become easier over time.
• 3:40
  Uh, you'll search our, uh, website for different studies that you can participate in, and, uh, you'll sign up online.
• 3:46
  You'll have a, uh, study coordinator call you and run you through, uh, our consent and the research process and what the study is actually gonna do to help, uh, research in your condition.
• 3:58
  And then, uh, we'll, um, uh, schedule a home visit for a blood draw, and we'll be at your home within about a week, week and a half, and, uh, take it from there.
• 4:08
  Samples delivered to the researcher to s- to start working on, uh, their therapies.
• 4:14
  For anybody watching this that's not particularly familiar with the old way of doing clinical trials, kind of paint us a picture of the challenges and the barriers that existed that this is trying to address. Yeah.
• 4:25
  So the, uh, the current market demands that the exist-- that the research subject or the research participant, uh, have to go into a medical center or a clinic or a hospital for each and every, uh, visit.
• 4:42
  And, uh, the difference is that with Sanguine, you don't have to go into, uh, a site for each of your visits. You could-- we could do a blood draw at home.
• 4:52
  We can do any sort of specimen collection or a, a diary or a patient-reported outcome assessment over Zoom or phone or what have you.
• 5:02
  So- Now, you were, you were doing this type of work, uh, before COVID, and I can only imagine how COVID sort of accelerated the decentralization of clinical trials, the desire for people to do things safely from home.
• 5:15
  So how did COVID impact your business? Yeah. Um, two ways. One, uh, there was a s-- there was a material increase in requests, imaginably so, uh, for samples from patients diagnosed with, uh, COVID.
• 5:29
  Uh, so that was, um, tailwind one. Uh, tailwind number two was the, um, increase in, uh, increase in, uh, interest to participate in the home, uh, by patients or research subjects.
• 5:47
  And then, uh, the demand-- that really met the demand from, uh, researchers because, um, most individuals and research participants didn't wanna go into a hospital or a clinical setting.
• 5:58
  So, uh, by-- you know, through that increased convenience, the number of interested individuals increased materially. SoHow did, how did that, uh, translate into actual growth for the business over the last few years?
• 6:12
  Yeah. So, um, since the beginning of COVID, uh, I'd say roughly a, uh, two hundred percent, uh, increase. So over the past, uh, two and a half years- Okay... there's been a material, material increase there.
• 6:28
  And, um, uh, really the, uh, what we're most proud of is the-- is how we were able to participate in the COVID vaccine.
• 6:36
  So we have, uh, a couple of published papers with, uh, Pfizer, where it indicates that we were the supplier of, uh, COVID-19, um, uh, samples and specimen, um, for development of, uh, their vaccine.
• 6:51
  Now, Brian, we're, we're talking about kind of the growth in your business from C-- during COVID and, and your role in helping to decentralize clinical trials and speed them up, make them safer.
• 7:01
  But actually, the reason why I wanted to have this call was because we saw your name recently on a number of impressive lists, including the Forbes, uh, best small, uh, businesses, s- the best small, uh, companies to work for.
• 7:17
  And, uh, so we wanted to sort of break that down and understand kind of what you're doing over there that's, that's unique. So, um, did that, uh, award come as a surprise? Yeah. I think, uh,
• 7:30
  you know, when you're working hard for ten, twelve years, you're really just, uh, you ha-- you learn to fall in love with the day-to-day grind, and you rarely, you know, put your head up and, you know, think to yourself, "Oh, wow, we have these awards and prizes."
• 7:43
  So, you know, for us, it was kind of... I-it was a surprise, uh, frankly. And, uh, you know, as you mentioned, we had a few awards this year.
• 7:52
  So I think that what we're most proud of is that, uh, we were able to grow quickly. So with the Inc. two thou- so we're on the Inc. five thousand, we're number two thousand thirty-eight.
• 8:02
  And on the other end, um, we, uh, we won a couple of Forbes awards, including a top seven, um, small, uh, medium biotech and biopharma, and then, um, I think number thirty-eight on, uh, the, uh, Forbes Best Small Business in America.
• 8:21
  So w-what we're proud of is that, uh, we could have that fast growth, but at the same time, have the, um, um, have a good culture. And I think that that's, uh, pretty tough to achieve. You know, for us,
• 8:36
  w-we like to run a, a business that's healthy. So of course, top line, you know, revenue growth is important.
• 8:41
  But also, you know, what we're doing to make life easier while working at the company, uh, is important because, you know, ultimately you wanna go to a place where you enjoy the people that you're working with, that has a comfortable environment that matches your values.
• 8:55
  So doing that and generating, um, you know, positive growth was exciting to us. And I think a lot of that has to go back to our values. And, um, you know, we're pretty strict about that.
• 9:06
  And, uh, we have, uh, semi-annual reviews where we, uh, grade folks, not just on, on performance, but also on behavior. So- Hmm. Okay.
• 9:14
  So give me some rules of the road, some do's and don'ts for creating a culture, um, that, uh, re- really bolsters your employees and, and makes them wanna come in every day. Yeah. I think a healthy dialogue is important.
• 9:29
  So being respectful, um, you know, or using professional language, I think is absolutely critical. I think a, a problem solver mindset of, um, uh...
• 9:42
  which really means, you know, not, uh, having energy, uh, mental energy and physical energy to, uh, solve problems and essentially use your brain.
• 9:52
  Um, I think that those are, uh, you know, pretty big values for us and kind of define, uh, uh, the environment that we're working with. Uh, give me an example of what you mean by using professional language.
• 10:07
  Um, I think like, uh, precision of dialogue is critical. So when you're giving feedback to folks, I think that, uh, precision is important.
• 10:17
  Um, so communication-- I mean, if you think about it now, like we're all on Slack, like communicating with each other, and, uh, a lot of the, um, communication can tend to, uh, become, become less, um...
• 10:30
  You know, you don't have to be formal all the time, but, uh, if you're becoming lazy in your speech, you're not being precise, and so there's miscommunication- Mm-hmm...
• 10:40
  um, commu-- uh, confusion and in some, in some cases, like increased intensity. Mm-hmm. So I think that that's, uh, that's important. I mean, working remotely, I'm sure you, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:54
  Uh, it almost-- you almost have to write a whole new rule book for, for etiquette, uh, in the remote workplace, don't you? Yeah.
• 11:01
  And, you know, like other companies, we're struggling with it, but at least we, you know, we're putting our foot forward and, and deciding what, what are the key values that are most important to us and making sure that we remind folks of that and keeping ourselves accountable, including myself.
• 11:16
  Yeah. Uh, how many employees are at the company? Uh, I believe a hundred and cha-- a hundred and ten, hundred and five. Uh, how do you think the average employee would describe you as a CEO?
• 11:29
  Well, I haven't had the privilege of meeting everybody. Um, but I'd like to think that, uh, they would describe me as, uh, a focused, meaning I'm not really distracted, uh, with, uh,
• 11:42
  um, with too many things that don't matter. Um, I'd say, um, focused, determined, and, uh, I, I think one of the values of, like, lifelong learning, so that's one of our- Mm-hmm... other values.
• 11:55
  Um, I think that that's probably how folks would describe me, that I'm, um, always interested in learning and becoming better.
• 12:02
  And, you know, uh, many of other employees at the company, uh, feel the same way about themselves, and I see them, uh, the same way.
• 12:09
  Are there concrete ways that you nurture that in your employees, encouraging them to be lifelong learners?Yeah, we, um, uh, in some cases we, uh, reimburse for, uh, additional training and, uh, um, learn-- and, you know,
• 12:25
  we, we wish that we had additional capital and resources to subsidize learning for, uh, as many people as possible, but,
• 12:33
  uh, we're slowly, uh, deploying more capital towards, uh, you know, out-outside activities in that regard.
• 12:40
  And we also give, uh, flexible work schedules for folks that are taking like master's courses or night courses and certifications, things like that. Nice. Um, sharing books.
• 12:50
  So we have like a reading list that, that's going around, so things like that. Nice.
• 12:56
  Uh, I saw that, uh, Comparably put you, put you high on a list of CEOs leading women and CEOs, uh, leading diverse teams, and I was curious about that because we just launched a new health equity initiative at Startup Health that's gonna become a framework for how we work with all of our hundreds of startups.
• 13:15
  And so I was curious what your sort of mindset and mental framework was around thinking about diversity in the workplace. Yeah. You know, it's like, um...
• 13:27
  The best way to describe it is that it's-- the concept of diversity inclu-- uh, equity, inclusion, and all those concepts weren't, uh, as they're described now, uh, weren't at the forefront of our minds.
• 13:40
  We, we really I think we've achieved, um, a good portion of those objectives by virtue of, uh, looking to create a good business that maximizes, you know, price per share.
• 13:53
  And the way to do that is to have as many smart people working hard and happy as possible.
• 14:01
  And, um, whatever the race, gender, and, you know, whatever criteria you wanna use, um, these items don't necessarily matter to us, um, as much as, uh, the, uh, performance because, you know, our, our focus is, uh, performing a strong business.
• 14:19
  So
• 14:20
  that's why I say it was really a byproduct of just if we focus on creating a, a good business that's great to patients, great to researchers, great to investors and employees, then a byproduct of that hopefully, uh, is, um, you know, is, uh, being thoughtful of your stakeholders, including women and, and, uh, folks of diverse backgrounds.
• 14:42
  Uh, these multiple lists, I mean four or five that we've already discussed, really point to, you know, your work as a leader and a manager, and yet kind of what I hear you saying is, you know, by building a great company and focusing on the product and focusing on, uh, just all the a-the aspects of the business itself, uh, it helps create, uh, the environment people wanna come to.
• 15:05
  And I'm kinda curious, how much of your time do you spend thinking about, uh, the management of your team versus this other idea, "Hey, if we, if we maximize the business, people will love being here 'cause we're running a, a great business?"
• 15:20
  That's a good question. We have some great managers that help me and advise me on, on, uh, different roles, our VP of HR, marketing, CFO, VP of operations, and my partner of ten years, Gerald Li. Um,
• 15:34
  you know, we're focused on really building that good business and, and just as a function of that, um, we use management, different techniques and thought process as a function of maximizing those outcomes, revenue, expenses, and things like that.
• 15:53
  Are, are there any strategies that you have employed to kind of build that culture that didn't work, that you had to learn from and kind of pivot away from? Uh, I'd say that,
• 16:05
  um, so far over the past, over the past three years, four years of running the business, um, our VP of HR deserves all the credit in terms of, uh, instituting the, the values, helping us def-define those, um, and then, uh, measuring against those and managing against those.
• 16:26
  Um, so she, she, uh, Catherine reserves-- deserves the credit there.
• 16:31
  I think that, um, in the f-really the first half of building the company, the first five years, you know, uh, obviously I was still developing as a leader.
• 16:40
  I really didn't have a good framework of what, you know, what I think that def-- how I define my values, Gerald's values, and then, uh, how we managed against those. So, A, we didn't really know what our values were.
• 16:54
  We're still developing that. And then how you use those tools in a framework to measure against that. So yeah, those were underdeveloped, but I think, um...
• 17:03
  So if your question is like, uh, h-what's worked, I think that taking the first step in defining those values first and then measuring against them, that's a-- that's always a great first step, and that's the biggest piece of the, of the process.
• 17:17
  I-If you were, uh, mentoring a younger founder, uh, early in their process and they had not defined their core values yet, what are some, uh, words of advice you might give them, uh, during the process?
• 17:28
  H-How to come up with the right list that's gonna bring their culture, the culture of their company together? Yeah.
• 17:34
  I think that, uh, uh, the cul- the values are really a function of what the leaders of the company aren't going to compromise on. Mm.
• 17:43
  Um, and, uh, there are some things, I mean, not everyone wakes up, you know, attending to those, uh, values every single day. That's, you know, perfectly, that's exceptionally difficult to do.
• 17:55
  But, uh, over the long run, conceptually, like what are you not going to compromise on?
• 18:00
  And we've, we felt a lifelong learning, there was no way we're gonna compromise on that problem solver attitude, um, healthy dialogue and teamwork and collaboration. The-these were things we're not gonna...
• 18:11
  So what I would suggest to a founder is to define themselves, understand themselves, and what they would not tolerate in the workplace.Um, that they wouldn't wanna co- uh, that they wouldn't, uh, compromise on.
• 18:23
  And the second piece of advice is tame the ego. How, how have you... Uh, you know, that's nice to say, but in, uh, in the running a business, people can kind of shy away from the conflict necessary to tame an ego.
• 18:41
  So, uh, any tips about how to do that managerially? Yeah. I think, uh, uh, well, if I'm speaking to founders, my message is that you have this asset, and everyone's looking to you, um, to-- for answers.
• 18:56
  But at the same time, um, yes, you have to answer to, you know, uh, to those shareholders and stakeholders, but, uh, the machine that works to get there is a function of, you know, the work and collaboration of all the people.
• 19:09
  So that means that the individuals that are working at the company are really the assets, and you have to learn how to sympathize or really put yourself in their position and, uh, really think about other folks, not just yourself.
• 19:21
  Because even if it's, um, if you're thinking about the business and how you're gonna respond, yes, it's not-- you're not thinking of, you know, maximizing your own outcomes, you're often thinking about stress.
• 19:32
  You know, do we-- how do we sign that next contract and so on. Many times that's just about you. You're not always thinking about, okay, what about the other people? How is it gonna impact others? Mm-hmm.
• 19:43
  So that's something that, uh, uh, I think that every founder needs to learn. Yeah.
• 19:49
  I know you give a lot of the credit to your head of HR, but I'm wondering, in terms of developing company culture, are there any books or resources, podcasts that you've leaned on that you would recommend to another founder?
• 20:00
  Oh God, where do I start? Um, Jason Lemkin's book, Start Right: Impossible to Inevitable. Um, uh, Aaron Ross with Predictable Revenue. Um, Ray Dalio's Principles. Um, there are plenty. Yeah.
• 20:16
  I think that the, the one that helped, uh, clarify, uh, for us, like how to manage the business is The Outsiders. Mm.
• 20:24
  And it shows how, you know, if you're really ruthless about creating a successful business that maximizes share price, that means you're also gonna be ruthless about making sure that people are happy and incentivized, and you're running a good business.
• 20:38
  Yeah. Um, putting on your, uh, putting on your sort of future-- futuristic hat, thinking forward five, ten years, help us understand sort of the future of decentralized clinical trials.
• 20:51
  Where do you see the industry heading? [sighs] That's a great question. Um, I think that what, uh, what we're seeing now is a harmonization of data through different health systems.
• 21:05
  I think, uh, uh, there are different, uh, tools out there that are har-harmonizing medical records, patient-reported outcomes, and, and specimen data.
• 21:14
  I think that, uh, combining all of that, uh, into a central, um, uh, central repository is pretty cri-critical. You just saw the announcement, um,
• 21:26
  uh, with Invitae and Citizen and Praxis, uh, Praxis Precision Medicine submitted, uh, a, I think an IND to the, uh...
• 21:36
  or I think an NDA to the, um, uh, FDA, uh, with just real world evidence, uh, data, with actually running the study from my understanding.
• 21:46
  So my, uh, my thought is that data and the ability to harmonize it and bring it all together and to collect as much of it as possible in, in an anonymized, uh, and, uh, private form is really gonna accelerate, uh, where we're going.
• 22:00
  So that's on the data side. In terms of logistics and decentralized trial, I think that, um, there is--
• 22:07
  that there will be a material increase in the number of cell and gene therapy trials, just because we haven't seen anything like it in terms of its efficacy and its, um, uh, really the approval rate.
• 22:21
  So we're excited to see where that's going. And so I think that there are gonna be many cell and gene therapy trials over the next few years. Very nice.
• 22:29
  And last question, what's the big headline that we should be looking forward to, uh, coming from Sangwan? What, what's gonna be the big news over the next six to twelve months?
• 22:39
  Um, I think it's around those two initiatives that I just shared with you. It's, uh, about, uh, you know, we've engaged, um, sixty thousand plus patients over the past decade, and, uh, we know them well.
• 22:50
  And, um, we're focused on aggregating data in that regard, and then seeing how that works with, uh, um, cell and gene therapy to accelerate studies on that level, uh, for allogeneic therapy, um, and, uh, [chuckles]
• 23:05
  finding a way to engage our patient advocacy groups and nonprofits that we work with. So yeah. Awesome. Brian, it's been awesome to see your company grow over the last five years.
• 23:17
  Uh, I have no doubt we'll, we'll see you again on some of these lists in Forbes and in Inc. and, and Comparably.
• 23:23
  Uh, really admire the work that you're doing, uh, as a CEO and building a, a culture that, uh, supports your, your people. So, so thank you. Thank you, Logan. Good to see you around. Take care. Be well.
• 23:37
  [upbeat music] Thanks for listening to Startup Health Now. Startup Health invest in health transformers around the world who are dedicated to achieving audacious health moonshots.
• 23:48
  If you wanna learn how you can join this community of entrepreneurs, or if you wanna connect with one of our four hundred companies, go to startuphealth.com.
• 23:56
  If you'd like to learn how you can invest in our Health Moonshot Impact Fund, go to healthmoonshots.com. Thanks for listening to Startup Health Now. We'll be back again with another episode next week. [upbeat music]