Latest / The Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast / Episode 45 | The Down & Dirty on Soil Carbon
Transcript
- Episode 45 | The Down & Dirty on Soil Carbon 00:00:06:03 - 00:00:31:22 Todd Gleason This is the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast, episode 45 The Down and Dirty on Soil carbon. I'm University of Illinois Extension's Todd Gleason. Today, we'll explore just exactly what carbon sequestration might mean and how it works in farm fields. Well, in the soil in general. We'll start our conversation with Doctor Marshall McDaniel from Iowa State University. 00:00:31:24 - 00:00:33:23 Marshall McDaniel Sure. My name is Marshall McDaniel. 00:00:33:23 - 00:00:44:10 Marshall McDaniel I'm a soil scientist in the agronomy department at Iowa State University, and I research soil plant interactions. And I, I teach three courses. 00:00:44:12 - 00:00:52:08 Todd Gleason I need you to teach us today what is a carbon credit? What does that represent and how is it related to soil carbon? 00:00:52:08 - 00:01:00:10 Marshall McDaniel Yeah. So, a carbon credit is simply a permit that allows the emission of one ton of CO2. 00:01:00:10 - 00:01:25:28 Marshall McDaniel And there's, as far as the credit goes, there's markets. There's kind of a compliance market or where, a, government or federal agency might require, the permit or accounting of it. And then the kind of the hot trend now is the, voluntary markets or private markets that are selling permits. 00:01:26:04 - 00:01:34:09 Todd Gleason Can you tell us a bit more about the research you're doing in regards to soil carbon, and how that as part of the carbon markets? 00:01:34:10 - 00:02:00:24 Marshall McDaniel Sure. I'd be happy to. Yeah. So the research we conduct in my lab group kind of relates to the carbon market in three ways. One, we study novel ways to manage soils and plants, in order to increase soil carbon. So some of these management practices that are, being touted as, ways to, buy and or sell that, carbon credits themselves. 00:02:00:26 - 00:02:26:03 Marshall McDaniel Also, we do research and how to accurately measure changes in soil carbon after what I like to call a, management intervention. So a change in the management practice and the reason why we need to study that is because, depending on the soil type, the climate, other management factors, the speed of carbon accrual in the soil might be different. 00:02:26:03 - 00:02:59:18 Marshall McDaniel And we need to kind of accurately track that in order to, verify some of these carbon markets. And then the third way that we, do research in regards to this carbon market and soil carbon in general, is exploring what I like to call early indicators of changes in soil carbon. And one of the early indicators, that I often tout is, the soil biology, usually the soil biology is one of the first parameters or things that change in response to a management. 00:02:59:18 - 00:03:10:16 Marshall McDaniel And, there's some ideas floating around out there that some of these, changes in the biology in the soil might portend longer term changes in soil carbon. 00:03:10:16 - 00:03:16:07 Todd Gleason Can you measure carbon very well. You mentioned you could working on tracking it. How hard is it? 00:03:16:12 - 00:03:21:19 Marshall McDaniel Oh, geez. Don't even get me started. It's it's really difficult, even for a scientist. 00:03:21:21 - 00:03:52:28 Marshall McDaniel So, measuring the carbon and usually measuring it is easy. More or less. And I can walk you through kind of how we do it. In a, in a laboratory setting and in a field, but then actually giving confidence or sometimes in, in as scientists, we say a significantly, or significant increase or statistical significant increase in soil carbon. 00:03:53:05 - 00:04:20:22 Marshall McDaniel That's a whole nother, can of worms, pun intended. And the way that we do this is so that ideally you go out and you sample deep, which is a challenge for, most agronomists, you have to have special equipment usually mounted to the back of a, a, tractor or an ATV or a truck. And that allows you to sample deeper, usually, more than 3 or 4ft. 00:04:20:24 - 00:04:58:09 Marshall McDaniel And when you sample deep, you, you assess more of the soils potential for soil carbon. So there's been a lot of research that showing that we don't understand the impact of these management practices on deep carbon. And so, this is something I think the carbon markets will struggle with because it's not easy to sample deep and and usually only, labs that have the capacity and some of that special equipment I measure or I mentioned, can, can sample deep and the other thing I want to mention about that, so that's just taking a soil sample. 00:04:58:09 - 00:05:19:19 Marshall McDaniel Then the sample comes back to a lab. We usually sieve it and remove plant particles and and homogenize the soil. Then we dry it, then we grind it down to homogenize it even more. And then we analyze it on a machine called an elemental analyzer. And that tells us the percent of carbon in that soil sample at a particular depth. 00:05:19:21 - 00:05:42:29 Marshall McDaniel But you also have to know the bulk density or the mass of soil per volume to calculate a total carbon stock. And and I know that sounds complicated. And there's a lot going into that, but that there's a lot of error at every step of that process. And that's what makes it so challenging to measure a statistically significant increase in soil carbon. 00:05:43:02 - 00:06:05:07 Marshall McDaniel And I want to add to the complexity, is that it depending on where you measure in the field, there's high what we call spatial variability or just differences in soil carbon that have nothing to do with the management. But that change from, you know, one, sample taken one foot away from another. And there's a high amount of variability in the field. 00:06:05:09 - 00:06:17:04 Marshall McDaniel So, you have to sample frequently, usually to detect a, a signal in the noise, as sometimes we say. And then all of those steps add additional error measurement error to it. 00:06:17:04 - 00:06:18:16 Todd Gleason Does soil type matter? 00:06:18:23 - 00:06:29:15 Marshall McDaniel Yes, soil type matters. And so soil type is a very broad term. I'm glad you brought that up. So one way to classify or type a soil is the landscape position. 00:06:29:15 - 00:07:03:06 Marshall McDaniel And we know the landscape position has a large effect on, on both the amount of carbon in the soil, but also a soils capacity to accrue carbon. We published a study a couple of years ago that, that showed this nicely, actually some of the more eroded hilltops, so kind of back slope and summits in the field, accrue carbon faster than depressions that already start at maybe, a higher, soil carbon level, higher organic carbon level. 00:07:03:08 - 00:07:31:07 Marshall McDaniel So that's one way to kind of, answer your question about soil type. The other. So that's, the landscape position as, as a way to type soils. But also we know that soils that are heavier textured so have more clay, those are, store different amounts of carbon than a sandy or soil. And by different, I mean the clay or soils, the finer textured soils, typically can hold more carbon. 00:07:31:10 - 00:07:55:06 Marshall McDaniel So they have a I like to use the analogy of a jar. So they already have a larger jar that can be filled with than a sandy or soil, kind of has a smaller jar or bank that can be filled, even if you're doing all the practices. Right. And, and, and kind of rich, soil carbon saturation is the term that, sometimes we use as scientists or soil carbon capacity. 00:07:55:09 - 00:08:00:03 Todd Gleason Is it related to water holding capacity, and if so, does tiling make a difference? 00:08:00:05 - 00:08:20:13 Marshall McDaniel Oh yeah. That's a great question. It does. So there have been a few studies and and some of them have shown a bit of controversy, but I think the most of the science now is falling on the side of that when you increase soil organic matter and soil carbon. 00:08:20:15 - 00:08:46:15 Marshall McDaniel So just to be clear here, soil organic matter is about 50% carbon. So there's other elements that make up organic matter. But when you increase carbon and organic matter, it usually increases the, amount of water that a soil can hold. But it also has other, benefits to it as well. That we sometimes we call Co benefits to increasing the soil carbon. 00:08:46:15 - 00:09:01:13 Marshall McDaniel So as carbon increases so does organic matter. And the other nutrients that are paired with that carbon. So nitrogen phosphorus sulfur are usually elements that also are increasing. If you're increasing your soil carbon generally. 00:09:01:15 - 00:09:19:13 Todd Gleason Back to the soil types just for a bit. So geography, landscape makes a difference. Water holding capacity makes a difference. We usually think of soil types of like Ipava and Flannagan and such. 00:09:19:16 - 00:09:20:26 Todd Gleason Does that make a difference? 00:09:20:29 - 00:09:40:15 Marshall McDaniel The as in the soil series like Flanagan. So I did I did my master's at the University of Illinois. So I do know those are soil series names out in Illinois. That soil series name is just another way to type soils. Right. And so the series will have different. And it's also based on landscape position. 00:09:40:18 - 00:09:58:10 Marshall McDaniel That's actually one of the more important factors. But texture also changes with the soil series. So yes, to answer your question, yes, all of those things play, a big role in a soil's capacity to store carbon, but also to accrue it and how fast it accrues. 00:09:58:15 - 00:10:08:11 Todd Gleason All right. So this is an oddball question, but if you were going to purchase farmland to store carbon, where would you do it? 00:10:08:13 - 00:10:40:05 Marshall McDaniel Yeah, that's an interesting question. It actually would depend on the history of that soil, too. So again, if you think of the analogy of like a jar or bank account, a lot of research has shown that, poor soil management has depleted about 50% of soil organic matter, soil carbon, prior to Euro-American, cultivation in the Midwest. 00:10:40:07 - 00:11:05:01 Marshall McDaniel So if you were to find that soil, that was very poorly treated and was even lower than 50% of, the kind of maximum that jar or bank can hold, then you would be storing more carbon in it. So but you know that that soil, I don't think that would be a good financial choice because that soil probably also doesn't grow crops on it very well. 00:11:05:03 - 00:11:13:28 Todd Gleason Yeah. It's it'd be a worn out soil. Interesting. Okay. Can you explain the different ways to measure carbon for carbon markets? 00:11:14:04 - 00:11:35:26 Marshall McDaniel There are two ways to answer that question, Todd. Either the, companies will pay for performance or pay for practice, and pay for performance actually requires either monitoring, verification, of the practice and that it's actually increasing soil carbon. 00:11:35:29 - 00:12:06:12 Marshall McDaniel Then there's also the option of paying for practice. And this means we just know generally that a practice like no till increases soil carbon on average, you know, half a tonne of carbon, per hectare per year. And then, they pay regarding that practice, no matter what the measured soil carbon gain is in the field. However, most of the companies that I'm seeing in the carbon market space are using one or more of the following, modeling. 00:12:06:14 - 00:12:34:19 Marshall McDaniel So using, mathematical models that, are complex and involve a lot of, physical, chemical processes and climate and everything and soil type that we discussed earlier, remote sensing. So some companies are using remote sensing, and soil sampling or a combination of those three. But those are the kind of three ways they're tracking payments and, and, that go to farmers. 00:12:34:24 - 00:12:48:11 Todd Gleason So did you just tell me that if I've been a no tiller for 30 years, that I have stored 15 tons of carbon, and that's in the banks, more or less, which might be valuable? 00:12:48:14 - 00:12:59:08 Marshall McDaniel Yeah. Well, that's that's actually one of the controversies, around these carbon markets. I'm. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. So that, that is been one of the worries. 00:12:59:08 - 00:13:21:01 Marshall McDaniel And there are a few companies that will pay for past performance, usually, or past practices, let's say maybe 5 or 10 years, I think. I think most companies that do this are just about five years prior. They'll pay you if you've been doing no till all this time. Otherwise, the term that's often thrown around is perverse incentives. 00:13:21:03 - 00:13:43:15 Marshall McDaniel So you might if you are a farmer and you just wanted to consider or, or you're concerned with carbon markets, you could, you know, till your soil for a few years and then go back into no till and maybe lose some of those gains you had made prior to the carbon markets, just to enter the carbon markets, with a tilled soil, for example. 00:13:43:15 - 00:13:45:03 Marshall McDaniel I think that's what you're asking. 00:13:45:05 - 00:14:16:04 Todd Gleason Well, no, I get why you would do that. I was just thinking that if it was more or less like a savings account, that you've been putting money into and that's been, or a CD, and it's coming do more or more that, right. And so that if, if it's been banked for 30 years, that it might be worth something as opposed to I could rip it up, let it all go and then start to build it back in, in order to, free up space in my jar, essentially. 00:14:16:05 - 00:14:39:01 Marshall McDaniel Oh, yeah. Sorry, that that's the, perverse incentive I was talking about. That's kind of some of the right, some of my economics colleagues call a perverse incentive, right? That that idea. And we do think so. This gets to another issue. We do think that there is a finite carrying capacity of carbon for many soils. There are some exceptions to that. 00:14:39:01 - 00:15:18:02 Marshall McDaniel And there are management practices that might kind of exceed that carrying capacity. But we think that practices like no till and cover crops and many other practices eventually, and we don't know how long that is. And it depends on the soil and climate and many other factors. But they do reach a limit where you might not be getting gains in carbon anymore, although that's not to speak of all the gains you get and maybe water quality or, you know, reduced erosion, increased infiltration rates that kind of come along with increasing your soil carbon to. 00:15:18:06 - 00:15:31:23 Todd Gleason Yeah. So you talked a little bit about soil health right there as a role. That soil carbon can play. Maybe you can expand on that and discuss compaction if it's related to soil carbon as well. 00:15:32:00 - 00:15:38:25 Marshall McDaniel Sure. Yeah. I'd be happy to. So do you remember the transitive properties in your math class? 00:15:38:28 - 00:15:41:19 Todd Gleason No, no. 00:15:41:21 - 00:15:45:24 Marshall McDaniel Yeah, I, I asked farmers when I, when I'm giving talks about this. 00:15:45:24 - 00:16:09:22 Marshall McDaniel So this is one of the analogies I use so that the transitive properties is where if A is like B and b is like C, then A is also like C, right. And so the reason I bring up this transitive property, because I think there's transitive properties of soil carbon and soil health. Right. So soil carbon is what the companies want to track. 00:16:09:25 - 00:16:37:01 Marshall McDaniel But that's related to soil organic matter. So if you remember I mentioned soil organic matter is about 50% carbon. And when you're increasing that carbon you're also increasing nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur and increasing water holding capacity of the soil. A lot of research has shown. And those things we call ecosystem services, soil ecosystem services. And that to me is what soil health is all about. 00:16:37:01 - 00:17:08:00 Marshall McDaniel The soil ecosystem services are the the functions that soils provide that enable life on Earth and benefit, human beings and the rest of life on planet Earth. So supplying nutrients to crops, holding water, infiltrating water, a habitat for soil organisms. Those are all aspects of soil health that I think fall under the ecosystem services. And to relate it back to that transitive properties, you know, if you're increasing soil carbon, you're also increasing organic matter. 00:17:08:03 - 00:17:34:21 Marshall McDaniel You're generally increasing those soil, ecosystem services, which are all just a part of an examples of soil health. Like, like you just mentioned the the infiltration, the increased infiltration, greater water holding capacity, greater ability to, supply nutrients to plants and, you know, it's not always a straight line through those, but there is a lot of connection between it. 00:17:34:21 - 00:17:55:28 Marshall McDaniel And there's some examples where it's not, a exactly a straight line to, to performance of crop productivity and an increase in carbon. But, those are the things we're really exploring as scientists connecting these, the trade offs and the benefits and the co-benefits of, increasing carbon. 00:17:56:00 - 00:18:06:22 Todd Gleason Any advice for a producer, a farmer, a landowner that's interested in carbon markets or an implementation of carbon storage? 00:18:06:24 - 00:18:43:14 Marshall McDaniel Sure. I think it would be the same advice the lawyer would have for anybody: read the contract. We we have, a couple extension faculty that work in the economics department here that I work with at Iowa State. And we've got some documents that I'm happy to provide people. If they send me an email or they look at the Iowa State University Extension store, and one of the advice a lot of my colleagues in the economics department talk about is, you know, make sure you read the contract, because each of these companies has kind of different clauses in there kind and contract. 00:18:43:17 - 00:19:08:11 Marshall McDaniel Some of them, want soil sampling, but they want the farmer to pay for it. So just knowing everything that goes on in those contracts is really important. It's just like anything in life, you're buying a new house or getting a loan for a house. You want to make sure you read the contract. And I'm happy to to help out anybody who's interested in this and pointing them to the information if I don't have it. 00:19:08:13 - 00:19:15:18 Marshall McDaniel And yeah, you can reach out to me at Iowa State or some of my colleagues in the Iowa State University Extension store. 00:19:15:21 - 00:19:33:20 Todd Gleason Marshall McDaniel is a professor and soil scientist at Iowa State University in Ames. We've been talking with him about carbon sequestration and how carbon really is sequestered in soils. Now, let's turn our attention to some work that the University of Illinois has been doing. 00:19:33:23 - 00:19:38:19 Todd Gleason Researcher and PhD student Sarah Sellars introduces herself. 00:19:38:25 - 00:20:06:18 Sarah Sellars Okay. Hi. My name is Sarah Sellars. I'm a third year PhD student here at University of Illinois in the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Economics. My advisor is Doctor Gary Schnitkey. I grew up here in Illinois on a family farm outside of Winchester, Illinois, and I kind of got involved in agriculture, carbon markets when I, helped to put together a farm doc daily article called What Questions Should Farmers ask About Selling Carbon credits last year? 00:20:06:18 - 00:20:17:00 Sarah Sellars And then things kind of took off from there. So we've been doing a lot of extension presentations and webinars, trying to get some information out there to help farmers navigate this decision. 00:20:17:02 - 00:20:20:14 Todd Gleason Well, tell me a little bit about the research and what you know about carbon markets. 00:20:20:16 - 00:20:33:03 Sarah Sellars So right now we've been working on compiling some extension information and putting together some materials to help farmers, navigate carbon markets, and decide whether they even want to enter the carbon market. 00:20:33:06 - 00:20:56:22 Sarah Sellars So we have two farmed out daily articles, what questions should farmers ask about carbon credits and Growing Climate Solutions Act impact on farmers? We have a YouTube playlist on carbon markets that's on the Farm Doc Daily YouTube channel. We have an extension presentation, we've been giving and we also did a farm doc webinar not too long ago on carbon markets. 00:20:56:22 - 00:21:10:07 Sarah Sellars So, that's a little bit about what what we've been working on. And, and things have changed a lot since we've been working on this extension project too. So it's really interesting to see how, how all of this carbon market, stuff is kind of evolving. 00:21:10:12 - 00:21:15:13 Todd Gleason Do you have an assessment of upcoming trends and maybe some of the impacts? 00:21:15:15 - 00:21:39:07 Sarah Sellars So one thing we've been keeping a really close eye on is the policy side of things. Because I think this has potential to really impact, the carbon markets. So, there's been a lot of questions around will the USDA get involved? What would that involvement look like? There's a growing Climate Solutions Act, which which passed through the Senate, but, it's still in the House. 00:21:39:07 - 00:21:58:09 Sarah Sellars So I think if that ends up getting passed, it could it could have a big effect on what happens with the carbon markets. I think price is a is a big thing to keep an eye on and, and something a lot of people are talking about, I mean, it's it's important, especially from the farmer side of things. 00:21:58:11 - 00:22:33:20 Sarah Sellars But I think there's some expectation from the company side that that the price is going to go up. So, for example, Indigo, their prices in in 2020, they're guaranteeing a minimum of $10 per carbon credit. In 2021, they were guaranteeing a minimum of $15 per credit. And now they're, they're projecting that to go up to to 30 and then, corteva, they also have a chart on their website that kind of projects what they think carbon credit payments are going to do in the in the future, all the way up to 2030. 00:22:33:22 - 00:22:51:27 Sarah Sellars So I think it's really interesting. I think that's one thing to keep an eye on is what what is the expectation out there that these companies think is going to happen. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm that I think the price is going up or that I'm promoting that, but I think kind of the expectation and the feel in the market is, maybe that the price is going to keep going up. 00:22:52:03 - 00:22:53:29 Todd Gleason Those are per acre prices? 00:22:54:01 - 00:22:57:13 Sarah Sellars Per, per carbon credit. 00:22:57:15 - 00:22:57:20 Todd Gleason Per carbon credit, 00:22:57:20 - 00:22:58:21 Todd Gleason how are those calculated? 00:22:58:28 - 00:23:14:08 Sarah Sellars Now, that's an interesting question. I was out at a, a sustainable agriculture conference in fall in Las Vegas and somebody asked, there was a lot of these companies there and giving presentations. And someone asked, how did you come up with this price? 00:23:14:14 - 00:23:35:07 Sarah Sellars And, because there's no market and no price discovery, I think it's it's really hard to kind of arrive at a price. So, what they kind of suggested at that conference that it was kind of, you know, just something they put out there. And then competition between the companies is kind of what's been driving the price up. 00:23:35:07 - 00:23:44:08 Sarah Sellars So I think it's a little bit challenging without the price discovery process to, to get to know even what is the price of an agricultural carbon credit, the true price. 00:23:44:11 - 00:23:48:21 Todd Gleason Are there questions that farmers asked all the time when you're at, at meetings? 00:23:48:24 - 00:24:00:19 Sarah Sellars Yeah. So there's a lot of good questions. Farmers have been asking a big question. A lot of farmers have been asking is, what if I've already been doing these practices on my my farm for years? 00:24:00:21 - 00:24:18:29 Sarah Sellars So there's a lot of variation between the contracts on on what you can and can't do. So some companies will let you go back ten years. Other companies say you had to have adopted the practice more recently. So I think there's a lot of frustration out there. From some, some farmers, because they've been doing these practices. 00:24:18:29 - 00:24:38:08 Sarah Sellars They've been doing no till, you know, for years. And and now they're not eligible for some of these programs. And, so I think that's that's really been a big question, a big, a big point of discussion, questions about, do I need a software subscription to participate? Because this this could be a significant cost to participating in the program. 00:24:38:10 - 00:24:57:29 Sarah Sellars Questions about what if the price of carbon credits goes up? Not all programs will protect that upside potential of that of that price. There's been a lot of debate about who gets the carbon credit, the the farmer or the landowner if you're if you're renting the land. So, and I know some programs they require and attestation of right to sell carbon. 00:24:58:01 - 00:25:07:15 Sarah Sellars And I've heard that other other programs, they have a box on their contract that says check here. If you received your landlord's permission. So I think there's a lot of variation out there in the contracts. 00:25:07:20 - 00:25:16:00 Todd Gleason Is there one place unbiased online or somewhere else, that producers and others can go to find information about carbon credits? 00:25:16:02 - 00:25:27:20 Sarah Sellars So one document we've been sharing a lot with farmers is, an extension document from Iowa State University that's called How to Grow and Sell Carbon Credits in U.S agriculture. 00:25:27:22 - 00:25:50:19 Sarah Sellars I think this document is nice because it kind of went through our article that we put together. What questions should farmers ask about selling carbon credits? And it kind of tries to answer these, these questions that we raised. And in there they compare 11 voluntary carbon programs that farmers can enroll in. So I think it's a really, really covers pretty much most of the programs that are offered here in the US. 00:25:50:22 - 00:26:17:00 Sarah Sellars There's also the Illinois Sustainable AG Partnership website. They have some great resources for farmers on there. Comparing some of these ecosystem markets. The American Soybean Association website has a really nice, document they put together doing doing some of these comparisons as well, comparing the contracts. So I think those are also some good resources for farmers to look at while they're thinking about this. 00:26:17:02 - 00:26:20:03 Todd Gleason Finally, any advice for someone that's wanting to learn more about it? 00:26:20:06 - 00:26:39:13 Sarah Sellars When one piece of advice I would give is to keep up with, the news and with company websites often. So like I mentioned, there was a company offering sign on bonuses, last summer. There's there's been changes in price. There's been changes in in programs, in what you can and can't do. 00:26:39:16 - 00:26:59:28 Sarah Sellars And there's a lot of things going on on the policy side too. So I think keeping an eye on these current events can be really important. I think reading them and watching everything you can find about it when you're thinking about this, when you're wanting to learn more. There's a lot of conferences that have been happening that have been recorded and put on YouTube. 00:27:00:06 - 00:27:19:15 Sarah Sellars So I think there's a lot of great information out there. You don't have to commit everything at once. So some programs, they allow you, you know, they don't have a minimum acre enrollment. So you could you could try it out first, see what you think. And if you're not locked in for long term, then then you know, you don't have to continue in the future. 00:27:19:15 - 00:27:41:11 Sarah Sellars You know, you can just try it out, see what that experience is like for you. I think stack ability is going to be important. We know there's costs with adopting a lot of these practices, such as, cover crops or, or changing your nitrogen practices. There's there's going to be costs to that. And most farmers, they want to make sure they can cover that break even cost of of adopting a new practice. 00:27:41:16 - 00:28:02:24 Sarah Sellars If you have a program that allows you to stack with government payments, that could allow you to hopefully get to above those break even costs and cover those adoption costs. And also, I think a program that that protects your upside potential is important. Because like I mentioned, the companies are kind of putting the expectation out there that they think the price may go up. 00:28:02:24 - 00:28:23:10 Sarah Sellars So you want to protect that and make sure you can you can capture that if that does happen. Another thing to think about is the modeling capabilities of the company. So we spoke to some companies in Alberta where they've been doing this for a while is agriculture carbon credits. They kind of have a more protocol based system through the government. 00:28:23:10 - 00:28:42:24 Sarah Sellars So it's a little different. But when that everything kind of started up there, there were ten companies purchasing agricultural carbon credits. And now they're down to three. And the company we talked to, they said, this was all due to modeling capabilities. These other companies, they didn't have the same modeling capabilities that the three that remain did. 00:28:42:24 - 00:28:54:13 Sarah Sellars So they ended up dropping out of the market. So I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the future. And if we see any, consolidation between companies or anything changing in the market and what's offered. 00:28:54:16 - 00:29:11:21 Todd Gleason If you'd like to read the carbon markets articles that Sarah Sellars has written for the Farm Doc Daily website, you can do that at Farm Doc daily.illinois.edu, you've been listening to episode 45 of the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction podcast, the down and Dirty on Soil Carbon. 00:29:11:23 - 00:29:20:13 Todd Gleason The program was produced in conjunction with Illinois Extension Watershed Outreach associate Rachel Curry. I'm Illinois Extension's Todd Gleason.