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Worship Wars · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity
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  just sufficient to flavor to be pleased or
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  gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what
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  we bring to your table today might add some spice
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  to your life welcome back
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  to another episode of relish i'm rowan miller
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  and i'm here with don patterson as always don
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  how are you doing today so far so good yeah until you
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  get that first big heavy hard splash and we're
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  doing fine yeah springtime in iowa it hasn't blown away yet we're good yep i
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  was an amateur in war shorts today and it didn't look at the weather feels like
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  45 outside so and it was really close this morning 50 degrees yeah it was close yeah,
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  oh iowa you know if you don't like the weather just wait a while it's gonna
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  change because it was 90 on Thursday.
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  90 on Thursday, like still in the 80s. Yesterday. Yesterday. Yeah. That's right.
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  Yep. Ah, yes. Iowa.
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  All right. We'll jump right in here. What is worship? How should we worship?
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  And then praise music or hymns? Ah, yeah. That's a, yeah. Worship wars.
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  Yeah. Well, Well, worship, God has always wanted to worship.
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  In fact, the very first sacrifice that Cain and Abel were doing was basically
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  worship, a giving of something that would be important to them and making sure
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  that they could be given to God.
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  And so that's always been part of our relationship with God.
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  And it has two aspects to it.
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  Worship always has an aspect that is us giving to God after all he's given to
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  us, you know? And so we're giving a portion back to God.
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  And it's also a time when God can meet us. So there's a certain aspect that
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  happens in worship that is in the middle of our prayers, in the middle of our songs.
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  All of a sudden, God will stop and meet us, and we will notice something's changed.
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  And we won't be able to always explain it, but we know that God has been there.
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  And in fact, I've gotten to the point where I start to pray in that direction.
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  That your Holy Spirit would guard our place here, that your spirit would be
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  part of our worship, part of the songs we sing, the words we say,
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  and that in the midst of that, he will meet us.
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  Yeah. I think that's a key to worship.
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  So that brings us to the worship wars question.
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  Should it be hymns or should it be worship songs? And even what's interesting
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  is if you live as long as I am, you'll notice that there's even another genre
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  that came in between there.
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  And so the old hymns would have been dating from, oh, let's see,
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  like How Great They Are came really popular in 1949. That's a fairly new hymn of sorts.
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  But most of the things that are in our hymnals would be older than 1939, 49. night.
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  Then in the 60s and 70s and 80s, there were what we called scripture songs.
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  Oh, okay. And they were popular during that time, especially connected to the charismatic movement.
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  And so, the charismatic movement brought those songs into the church,
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  and many of them we still enjoy.
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  The Here I Am Lord, that would also be another genre that came out of the Catholic church.
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  And then we've got these off-the-wall songs that we often call that well you
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  have to have a projector of some sort to get all these digital songs on and
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  they're rather free free-flowing,
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  yeah one guy called them 7-11 seven words we say 11 sing 11 times so 7-11 songs
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  and what's interesting is they seem to go generationally in the church there's
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  certain generations like certain songs.
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  Yeah. And so if you're younger, you might prefer one over another.
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  I really think a good mix is good. Yeah, I would agree.
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  Sing Love is a group that we use at our Yvonne conferences, and they make a mix of them.
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  So all of a sudden, you come through and you do these worship songs,
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  and all of a sudden, a hymn that resonates.
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  And they mix them together so well. Makita does that as well.
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  They are the group that is in South Bend, Indiana.
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  And she does that in worship.
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  Mixes the off the wall. Some of her songs are original.
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  And then all of a sudden moves right into a hymn. Yeah.
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  And because it's familiar to many of us, then it's easy to sing. Mm-hmm.
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  So I think if the church appreciates the whole of the congregation,
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  there'll be a mix of those things.
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  Yeah. I couldn't imagine not singing hymns, but I also like the worship time
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  with the worship team. Right.
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  And what's interesting is in your generation, what I notice is all of a sudden
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  we'll hit a hymn that's known and they just really enjoy it.
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  And I think that's cool because we often think, well, it's got to be one way or another.
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  And I guess I'm noticing this current generation that's coming out of high school,
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  college appreciates a good mix. Yeah. Yeah.
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  So worship wars, I've seen churches separate from that issue. Really?
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  Yeah. And it doesn't need to happen. It doesn't need to happen at all.
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  Yeah. There's plenty of music out
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  there. And, you know, all of it seems to have a little bit of God in it.
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  And it's worship if it connects us with him,
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  Yeah. I love hearing the hymn stories behind hymns as well.
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  Those are oftentimes very moving. Mm-hmm.
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  This last Sunday at Midbury Council Churches, I used two hymns. Yeah.
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  And I used them because I knew the kids would know them.
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  And I also included their stories, and their stories lead out my vision.
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  That's St. Patrick's view for his desire for Ireland to come to Christ. Wow.
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  It's neat. Yeah. Very old song.
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  Yeah. So yeah, good stuff. Good question. Good question. Yeah.
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  All right. What are all the ways that Satan can appear to us and what is the Antichrist?
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  Oh man, I don't have all the scripture references down, but we know that he can emulate.
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  Yeah. He can emulate an angel of light.
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  Well, partly he can emulate an angel because he was at one time angelic.
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  And so his ways of imitating divine are limitless because he can deceive. Yeah.
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  And sometimes the only way we can tell that it's demonic is by its manifestation.
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  So if it is taking away or somehow distracting or just twisting,
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  maybe a truth of the gospel, that can be demonic.
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  And he's subtle in doing it.
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  That's why so many times when you're dealing with spiritual warfare,
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  you need to do it within a cover of prayer.
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  Okay. And make sure that in that cover of prayer, you declare the name of Jesus Christ as Lord.
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  So that even that subtlety will bind him.
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  Just saying the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ is Lord. In spiritual warfare.
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  Got to use the name of Jesus Christ. And I've noticed in prayer ministry that
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  it's even so subtle that the individual will be thinking he's hearing Jesus.
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  And as a prayer minister, you have to be attentive to anything that sounds a little squirrely.
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  And even in the squirreliness, then you ask, is this the Jesus Christ who died
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  upon the cross, son of almighty God, giving more monikers, if you will, to the biblical Jesus.
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  And one time, yeah, all of a sudden that voice was gone and the real Jesus shows up.
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  So Satan is so subtle and so twisted that even in times of prayer, we could get twisted up.
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  And so we need to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and risen Savior,
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  and make sure that it's very specific.
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  Because he can imitate so much of what is good to get us tripped up.
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  And that's his main mission is to twist us up.
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  All right. Let me see if I understand that right. So if you pray in the name
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  of Jesus, you state that, and then you hear a voice, it still could be Satan?
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  You still got to test it. Okay. And then you be more specific on Jesus and die on the crossroads.
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  Because you're being the receiver at that point. Okay.
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  When you shift into the receiver mode, then you've got to make sure you're here
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  in the right place. Yeah.
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  Interesting. Yeah. And that's an aspect of prayer ministry that we teach,
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  instruct, and how you do that conversation with Jesus.
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  And it's really important because he really does want to mess with us.
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  Satan wants to mess with us. That's part of spiritual warfare is that Satan
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  desires to trip us up and mess with us.
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  It's not fun. Well, you know what? I say it's not fun. The struggle is not fun.
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  The outcome is. Because when you get victory in those kind of prayers,
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  it changes things. It changes people. It changes lives.
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  So that's good stuff. Yeah.
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  But Satan is a deceiver.
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  He is. He can masquerade as an angel of light. Yeah.
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  What is the antichrist then? Is that Satan also? It is the contrast of Christ, yeah. Okay.
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  And I think one of the things I see biblically that is probably the biggest
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  contrast between Christ and the Antichrist is that Christ gave so much of himself sacrificially,
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  Hebrews 12, 2, for the joy set before him. He endured the cross.
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  Yeah. The Antichrist will be rather selfish. Okay. And things will need to revolve around him.
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  He will cut off things that don't revolve around him, especially as you see
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  the Antichrist revealed in the book of Revelation, chapter 13, 14, and 15.
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  Nothing outside of him. I mean, he doesn't tolerate anything that will not receive that mark. Okay.
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  Yeah. He doesn't tolerate anything that has to do with Jesus Christ.
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  So that intolerance of the Antichrist, I think, is a mark that will help us
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  recognize him. All right.
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  For sure. Yeah. And that's the anti part of the Antichrist.
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  That's good. What is righteousness? What does righteousness look like? And can we be righteous?
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  Well, we can't be as righteous as God. Yeah.
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  But in the midst of that, righteousness is our trying to be right before God.
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  So we want to carry his values. We want to carry his ways, reflect him well,
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  reveal him well, if you will, in our lives, as opposed to unrighteousness that doesn't.
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  So it's almost easier to define in contrast.
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  Okay. So we look for God's values, His righteousness.
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  In fact, as Christians, as followers of Jesus Christ and followers of God,
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  we use His values as the measure for righteousness rather than our own,
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  you know, because we could skew those rather quickly.
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  And that's important that we know than the Bible, because that's where the values are.
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  That's where they're most vividly illustrated.
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  Would be in the Bible. Well, then can we be righteous given all that the Bible
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  talks about and the values that are being called for, even the values that Jesus reflected?
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  It's hard to live up to the kind of love that Jesus had.
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  I mean, we can try and I hope we do, but to be as compassionate as Jesus,
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  that might be a stretch for us, but it would be a measure of how we are reflecting those values.
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  So that would be righteousness. Now with that last zinger on that one at the end of that question.
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  Can we be righteous? Can we be righteous? Yeah.
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  No, but we can come mighty close. Yeah. And it's the grace of Christ that bridges
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  that gap in our righteousness.
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  And I think part of the grace is we become aware that our righteousness comes
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  from God through Jesus Christ and appreciate it. That's our worship.
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  But can we? No, we can't be as righteous as God. That's not something we're capable of.
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  We can be really good. Yeah. Yeah.
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  All right. This one's interesting. Is there absolute and relative truth in the Bible?
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  Absolute truth. Do you want definitions for them or you know what?
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  Well, you go for a definition because that'll give me just a little bit more time.
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  Just being honest, you know. All right. Relative truth suggests that a statement
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  or belief can be true for one person or group, but not for another,
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  depending on their individual context or perspective.
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  And then absolute truth refers to statements or principles that are universally
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  and eternally true, meaning they are valid in all situations and cannot be altered or changed.
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  Well, I'm sort of moved towards the more absolute truths of the Bible.
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  That being said, what's interesting is in the Bible, once in a while,
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  the people of Israel can do things that maybe some other people couldn't.
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  And so I acknowledge that within the context of the Bible, there seem to be
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  some situations that would at least skew whether it's absolute or not in our mind. Yeah.
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  Now, maybe if we came at it from God's perspective, we would understand it as more absolute.
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  That being said, murder is murder. Yeah. Because the thing about murder that's
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  interesting is somebody was alive and now they're not.
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  Well, if the cause of that was somebody put that on them, then that's still murder.
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  Was it justified or unjustified?
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  That's the one that I see so much in the Bible that's skewed at times.
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  That's the one that probably brings that question to the fore.
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  Was it a just? Because there was executions in the Bible.
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  And in fact, you go through the Deuteronomy and Numbers, and you see some pretty
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  explicit rules and laws that if somebody did this, well, you take them out and stone them.
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  And we see Jesus looking at that when we get to John chapter 8. So...
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  What's interesting is that woman caught in adultery, Jesus said, go and sin no more.
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  The Jews said she should have been stoned. The law would have said that the
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  guy who she was committing adultery with should also be stoned.
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  But you notice he wasn't in the picture. What's wrong with that picture?
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  And Jesus saw that. Jesus basically understood that they were coming to test him.
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  And she was not, she was a victim rather than a individual who was actively part of what's going on.
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  And who knows, maybe the guy who was part of the adultery was standing right there.
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  It might've been one of them. Yeah, he might've been trying to stone her.
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  And still Jesus didn't say, okay, bring him over here.
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  I know he was part of this and stone him. No, he doesn't.
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  And so that's one of those relative truths It's, you know, and it's where Old
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  Testament would say, this is the way it's got to be. Absolute.
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  The other part of that question that is alluded to is, what is truth?
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  And so, Jesus says, I am the way and the truth and the life. That's John 14, 6.
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  What does Jesus mean when he says he is the truth?
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  Because he is saying then, looking back at all the Old Testament that needs
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  to go through who he is for us to better understand it as this is the way, this is the truth,
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  this is truth against faults. We see it through Jesus.
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  I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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  And when Jesus says that, he's basically saying his life is the litmus test. of truth and faults.
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  That's why when we get to Romans 8 and we see this woman caught in adultery,
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  well, she did commit the act.
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  Yeah. But he doesn't say that stoning is the punishment, even though that was in the Old Testament.
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  So then when we start getting into how Jesus interpreted it,
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  we walk carefully with who he is.
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  There's more behind it than black and white. Yeah.
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  Seems like that's... A lot of these questions are kind of just one side or the other.
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  One thing I think is important is Jesus, if every situation we see,
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  okay, he knew what they were saying.
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  Did you notice how many times in the gospel accounts, Jesus knew what they were
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  saying, even if he couldn't hear them? Yeah, when they didn't. He knew their hearts.
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  And that's something that Jesus can interpret much more quickly than we can.
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  Why? Why did that person commit that act? What was in their heart that caused that action?
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  Yeah. And he can judge hearts. better than we.
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  And I think that's part of what goes on with this determining what is truth
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  and the question before, what is righteousness?
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  Because it's done with Jesus in the forefront.
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  Our measure as Christians is Jesus, whether it's Old Testament or New Testament. Okay.
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  Sounds good. Well, is that all you got?
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  I'm more out, yeah. You did good, so I would be too.
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  Oh my. Well, thank you as always, Don. Thank you guys for listening in.
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  And maybe share it with somebody that would find it interesting.
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  Submit some more questions for us. Yeah. Just don't take him to Don.
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  He can't know him. I can't know him ahead of time. Take him to Ron.
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  Yeah. Well, thank you guys for tuning in. We'll see you next time.
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  Lord willing. Thank you for joining us for this podcast. Feel free to become
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  part of this ministry by sharing it with others.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and is calling to us in our daily lives. Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.