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The Late Debate | 1 January · The Late Debate

0:00
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, send Welcome to the Lake to Places.
0:06
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program. I'm freih Leach, joined by Angela
0:09
Speaker 2: Mollard and Holly Hughes coming up tonight. Previously confidential cabinet
0:13
Speaker 2: papers from two thousand and five show Key Howard Government
0:17
Speaker 2: ministers and departments recommended against sending Australian Special forces back
0:24
Speaker 2: into Afghanistan in two thousand and five? Why were their
0:27
Speaker 2: warnings ignored? Plus, Germany is edging towards a return to
0:32
Speaker 2: military conscription. Starting this Thursday, all German males once they
0:37
Speaker 2: turn eighteen will have to answer an army questionnaire about
0:40
Speaker 2: their fitness and willingness to serve. Is this something Australia
0:44
Speaker 2: should be looking at? And it's January first, so that
0:48
Speaker 2: means everyone's putting together their New Year's resolutions for twenty
0:51
Speaker 2: twenty six. But are they actually effective? Or do gyms
0:55
Speaker 2: just get very busy for two weeks and then go
0:58
Speaker 2: back to normal? But first, The pressure mounting on the
1:02
Speaker 2: Albanesi government to call a federal royal commission into the
1:06
Speaker 2: Bondai massacre continues to grow. Now the Australian Human Rights
1:11
Speaker 2: Commissioner Lorraine Finlay has thrown her support behind a royal
1:16
Speaker 2: commission as well, she said on LinkedIn. The Richardson review
1:20
Speaker 2: will examine our national security framework, but understanding the deeper
1:24
Speaker 2: causes of violence is critical. The Bondai terrorist attack was
1:29
Speaker 2: driven by anti Semitism. Confronting that directly must be a
1:33
Speaker 2: national priority. A federal royal commission is essential to fully
1:38
Speaker 2: understand what has happened and ensure it never happens again.
1:44
Speaker 2: Now she is just the latest voice in a growing
1:48
Speaker 2: number of voices who have frankly stood up and said
1:52
Speaker 2: the Albanesi government has got to grow a pair and
1:55
Speaker 2: hold this royal commission. Holly, I'm not surprised, but I'm
1:58
Speaker 2: actually quite impressed. Even the Human Rights Commissioner, who you know,
2:02
Speaker 2: this office has often been captured by the woke left
2:05
Speaker 2: and has had some questionable positions on other issues, but
2:09
Speaker 2: it is great to see them taking a firm stance
2:12
Speaker 2: on this well.
2:12
Speaker 3: And Loraine was an appointment by the coalition government, So
2:16
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised to hear Lorraine come out with a
2:19
Speaker 3: very sensible viewpoint here, because the reality is, if we
2:22
Speaker 3: don't get to the very root of what is causing
2:26
Speaker 3: this anti semitism, and you know, the fact that we're
2:29
Speaker 3: now seeing that the government was warned about it twenty
2:31
Speaker 3: plus years ago.
2:32
Speaker 4: The last thing we want to be is in a
2:34
Speaker 4: position in twenty.
2:34
Speaker 3: Plus years where we're still having the same conversation.
2:38
Speaker 4: It's really important that we start to root out.
2:42
Speaker 3: Radical Islam that is particularly entrenched in Western Sydney, and
2:47
Speaker 3: we're seeing that that it's been going on for decades.
2:50
Speaker 3: Yet governments have just been in a state of paralysis
2:53
Speaker 3: when it comes to legislating against this kind of hate crime.
2:57
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:57
Speaker 5: Look, I thought there was a really interesting letter to
2:58
Speaker 5: the editor in The Australian that said we currently have
3:02
Speaker 5: a Prime Minister of the Labor Party, not a Prime
3:05
Speaker 5: Minister of Australia, and I think that's a very fair
3:08
Speaker 5: comment if you think about it, is this is the
3:10
Speaker 5: third time I think that Albanezi has duck for cover
3:12
Speaker 5: on these issues. He hasn't explained the payment to Brittany Higgins,
3:16
Speaker 5: he hasn't explained why there wasn't a Royal commission into
3:21
Speaker 5: the States over the COVID response. Yes, we had a
3:23
Speaker 5: federal look and we looked at what Scott Morrison did,
3:26
Speaker 5: but we never saw any scrutiny of Dan Andrews, Anastasia Palochet,
3:31
Speaker 5: Mart McGowan and in the West. Now, if we're to
3:33
Speaker 5: have another panandemic, we have no nothing to work with that.
3:36
Speaker 5: And so for that very reason, if we were to have,
3:40
Speaker 5: Heaven forbid, something else happened like BONDI, then that will
3:44
Speaker 5: be blood on the Prime Minister's hands, because if he
3:47
Speaker 5: doesn't look at really seriously bringing this issue to the foe.
3:52
Speaker 5: And I haven't seen a situation quite so pronounced where
3:56
Speaker 5: what we're discussing in media is actually reflect did on
4:00
Speaker 5: the streets. I have had people in my acquaintance state
4:04
Speaker 5: antisemitic things and for that to happen, I was absolutely shocked.
4:07
Speaker 5: I couldn't believe that it happened. So for that to happen,
4:10
Speaker 5: it feels to me like there's a marriage between what's
4:12
Speaker 5: being discussed within politicians and within media is very much
4:17
Speaker 5: in response to what is happening on the streets. There's
4:19
Speaker 5: not a disconnect at all.
4:21
Speaker 2: And there is so much anger out there, so much anger,
4:24
Speaker 2: and I think that is what Albanezi just does not understand.
4:28
Speaker 2: People will not forget this. You thought people were mad
4:30
Speaker 2: at Scott Morrison after the bushfires and after he very
4:34
Speaker 2: awkwardly said I don't hold a hose. Well, this is
4:37
Speaker 2: so much worse because fifteen people have died and you
4:40
Speaker 2: are refusing to take any accountability or have any transparency.
4:45
Speaker 2: And this is the thing. The review that they're going
4:47
Speaker 2: to conduct, it's only looking at government agencies and how
4:51
Speaker 2: they've responded. But technically, if you're a minister, the agency
4:56
Speaker 2: should sit under you.
4:57
Speaker 4: Will they report you?
4:58
Speaker 2: You are the ultimate authority. You are the ball stops
5:02
Speaker 2: with you, okay, And if they're not willing to scrutinize
5:05
Speaker 2: the actions of the ministers and the government, then what's
5:08
Speaker 2: the point.
5:08
Speaker 3: Well, and I think this is where we're losing the
5:10
Speaker 3: Westminster system of government. There's not Frank and Feelers's advice
5:13
Speaker 3: being given by bureaucrats anymore.
5:15
Speaker 4: It's only what the Minister of the day wants to hear.
5:18
Speaker 3: And this is the problem because Tony Burke has a
5:22
Speaker 3: seat in southwestern Sydney. He doesn't want to upset his
5:25
Speaker 3: constituents and the fact that he is playing this political
5:29
Speaker 3: game fundamentally with people's lives. And I think where they're
5:32
Speaker 3: really misreading the room is it's not just Jewish Australians
5:35
Speaker 3: who feel this it's all Australians, and the fact that
5:38
Speaker 3: it's been demonstrated on national icons, whether it's the Opera House,
5:44
Speaker 3: the march across the Harbor Bridge, the attack on Bondai.
5:48
Speaker 3: All Australians hold those places dere particularly obviously Sydney Siders,
5:53
Speaker 3: but all Australians, and they are seen globally as representations
5:57
Speaker 3: of Australia. So it's doing as internationally as well as
6:01
Speaker 3: the fear that Australians are feeling. And it's horrible to
6:04
Speaker 3: think that Jewish Australians are actually looking to move to
6:07
Speaker 3: Israel because they do not feel safe here.
6:09
Speaker 4: It's just appalling.
6:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the most just confronting images I saw
6:13
Speaker 2: they held a vigil on Tel Aviv beitch for Bondai.
6:17
Speaker 2: You know, we hold vigials here for terrorist attacks that
6:20
Speaker 2: happen in the Middle East.
6:21
Speaker 4: Yep.
6:22
Speaker 2: The idea that it's happening in reverse is just mane And.
6:25
Speaker 5: That's why Albany's he has a global responsibility, not just
6:28
Speaker 5: an Australian responsibility. Because this happened here on our soil.
6:31
Speaker 5: It was reported around the globe. I was run by
6:34
Speaker 5: multiple British newspapers asking to write pieces on it. And
6:37
Speaker 5: the reason being that he needs to have that Royal
6:39
Speaker 5: commission is we need to lead the world and the
6:41
Speaker 5: thinking around the growth of anti Semitism. I know different
6:44
Speaker 5: countries have handled their protests and things in different manners,
6:47
Speaker 5: but we can all learn and stem this before it
6:50
Speaker 5: takes hold.
6:51
Speaker 3: Well, and we've now saying the Immams Group calling for
6:54
Speaker 3: the President of Israel to not be invited to Australia,
6:58
Speaker 3: and I mean this is doing nothing but seeding that
7:01
Speaker 3: division further. And at a time like this, I mean,
7:04
Speaker 3: are these people completely tone deaf as well?
7:07
Speaker 4: To start, you know, the President of Israel.
7:10
Speaker 3: Is not the person in charge of the armed forces,
7:12
Speaker 3: and quite frankly, I couldn't care less if he was.
7:14
Speaker 3: But the fact that there is now a cleric group
7:17
Speaker 3: in Australia saying don't invite you know, the titular head
7:21
Speaker 3: of Israel is just disgusting in the review.
7:24
Speaker 2: And the thing is, none of this has happened in
7:26
Speaker 2: a vacuum. We've known for decades that this was brewing.
7:30
Speaker 2: In fact, we've now seen from the Office of National
7:33
Speaker 2: Archives previously confidential cabinet papers from the Howard era have
7:38
Speaker 2: been released. They're very interesting across the whole range of areas,
7:42
Speaker 2: from work choices and industrial relations to the decision to
7:45
Speaker 2: send special forces back into Afghanistan. Now that is the
7:50
Speaker 2: story I want to pick up on here, Angela. You've
7:52
Speaker 2: spoken with families who lost sons in Afghanistan and it
7:58
Speaker 2: was a controversial decision at the time. Australia was very
8:02
Speaker 2: effective two thousand and one, two thousand and two, But
8:05
Speaker 2: that decision in two thousand and five to send the
8:07
Speaker 2: special forces back in well, we now know that then
8:11
Speaker 2: Foreign Minister Alexander Downer and then Defense Minister explicitly warned
8:17
Speaker 2: against deploying the troops, saying this was an open ended
8:22
Speaker 2: mission with no clear strategic advantage and also was potentially
8:27
Speaker 2: extremely dangerous for Australian soldiers' lives. On the other hand,
8:33
Speaker 2: you can imagine the pressure that Howard was under from
8:36
Speaker 2: West and the UK. So how do we make sense
8:39
Speaker 2: of this? It seems like a really fraught issue.
8:41
Speaker 5: Look, I think it is very difficult, and it's difficult
8:44
Speaker 5: for any leader, and it's not something that they wear lightly.
8:47
Speaker 5: How would not would not have worn that decision lightly.
8:50
Speaker 5: He had that advice that he was that you know
8:53
Speaker 5: that not to go in there. But as you say,
8:55
Speaker 5: he was being pressured by Blair and Bush this. We
8:58
Speaker 5: do not know when we go into a war war
9:00
Speaker 5: what the outcome of that war will be. We didn't
9:02
Speaker 5: know when we went into Iraq that there were not
9:05
Speaker 5: actually weapons of mass destruction. We didn't know that twenty
9:08
Speaker 5: years on that the Taliban would re seize control of
9:11
Speaker 5: Afghanistan and that war and for all the families that
9:15
Speaker 5: lost their children to that war, that loss and the
9:18
Speaker 5: futility of the sense that the work that they did
9:22
Speaker 5: didn't amount to nothing, but you know there was a
9:24
Speaker 5: questionable success around it. Look, yes, I have a daughter
9:27
Speaker 5: in defense, so I'm very interested in and I know
9:30
Speaker 5: I'm very draw drawn to honor honor avenues. And there's
9:33
Speaker 5: one in Younger bur in the up in far North Queensland,
9:37
Speaker 5: and actually I wrote about it recently and the father
9:40
Speaker 5: of one of the children who was killed in Afghanistan,
9:44
Speaker 5: a young man called Ben Chuck. The dad wrote to
9:47
Speaker 5: me and his searing letter this is him there. He
9:51
Speaker 5: would be forty two now he was twenty seven. He
9:53
Speaker 5: was a commando. I wonder what it's like for those
9:56
Speaker 5: parents today to be hearing that there was a vice
10:00
Speaker 5: to go to war. I mean, of course, you know,
10:02
Speaker 5: you go into the defense force, you know that this
10:04
Speaker 5: is the risk, and as parents of someone, we know
10:06
Speaker 5: it's the risk we have, you know, we silently pray
10:09
Speaker 5: please not mine. But nevertheless, when information like this comes out,
10:14
Speaker 5: it must question and add to the pain that you're
10:17
Speaker 5: already feeling.
10:17
Speaker 3: It isn't I mean, I don't know whether it's because
10:19
Speaker 3: when you get older, twenty years isn't that long ago
10:23
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways when you think about what
10:25
Speaker 3: was going on in the world back then. But you know,
10:28
Speaker 3: I think there's a real lesson here for alban Easy
10:31
Speaker 3: because it won't be that long until the cabinet deliberations
10:36
Speaker 3: around anti Semitism, what they've done over the past couple
10:39
Speaker 3: of years, will be released to the public. And you know,
10:42
Speaker 3: I think there's a real lesson for leaders in that
10:45
Speaker 3: that you know, people are still in Parliament that were
10:48
Speaker 3: there twenty years ago and or have only just left,
10:50
Speaker 3: and people are still alive.
10:52
Speaker 4: You know that leaders are still with us.
10:55
Speaker 3: So I think there's a real lesson for him to
10:57
Speaker 3: reflect on some of the decisions he's making now because
11:00
Speaker 3: it won't be long until people are actually able to
11:03
Speaker 3: review how those decisions were made. And I don't think
11:07
Speaker 3: there's going to be a particularly bright shining light on
11:09
Speaker 3: the Albanezy government when their cabinet papers come out, particularly
11:13
Speaker 3: in their inaction on anti Semitism.
11:14
Speaker 2: And that's the classic move. If you want to obscure documents,
11:18
Speaker 2: just mark them as cabinets cabinet advice and.
11:21
Speaker 4: Walk them through the cabinet room.
11:22
Speaker 2: Yep, cannot get your hands on those, and that's how
11:25
Speaker 2: everything ends up redacted. We saw that with the isis
11:27
Speaker 2: Brides and Tony Burke. I mean, it's just the classic move.
11:30
Speaker 2: Everything becomes a cabinet document and then no scrutiny.
11:33
Speaker 3: Well and you know, speaking of isis brides, we know
11:36
Speaker 3: that Southwest Sydney was providing isis brides faster than anywhere
11:41
Speaker 3: across the world. But it did impact a number of countries,
11:44
Speaker 3: including the UK. And unfortunately for Australians, we didn't have
11:48
Speaker 3: a government who acted in the same way as the
11:50
Speaker 3: UK did, so when it came to Shemima Begun, they
11:53
Speaker 3: actually stripped her of her British citizenship. So unlike Australia
11:58
Speaker 3: who has always used to make someone stateless, this woman
12:03
Speaker 3: is now stateless and not allowed back into the UK.
12:06
Speaker 3: And despite Brexail, we're now seeing a circumstance where the
12:09
Speaker 3: Human rights called in Europe is trying to overrule that decision.
12:13
Speaker 4: And I got to say, you know what, if Belgium,
12:16
Speaker 4: what are Belgium should have it?
12:18
Speaker 3: Because if the UK doesn't want her, then some of
12:20
Speaker 3: these European nations that are part of the EU.
12:23
Speaker 4: They should step up and go Nope, where all good
12:26
Speaker 4: with isis brides? Where all good.
12:28
Speaker 3: With people that supported the war in Syria and Isis?
12:31
Speaker 3: And we're seeing Isis wear its head again and causing
12:34
Speaker 3: problems across the world with radical Islam. And if I
12:38
Speaker 3: for one have never supported the return of the Isis brides,
12:41
Speaker 3: I think this government's being very deceptive in the way
12:44
Speaker 3: that they're saying that they're handling this and Australians, I
12:47
Speaker 3: think quite rightly say we don't want these Isis brides
12:49
Speaker 3: back because of the hate that will have been in
12:53
Speaker 3: trined whilst they were over in Syria. They left this country.
12:56
Speaker 3: They chose to leave this country as a woman. How
12:59
Speaker 3: you would make that choice is beyond me. To be
13:03
Speaker 3: subjugated in that society.
13:06
Speaker 5: I understand that what you're saying there, but we're talking
13:08
Speaker 5: about a fifteen year old here. So Shemima was a
13:10
Speaker 5: fifteen year old. She was one of three young women
13:13
Speaker 5: who that were called the Bethnal Green three and two
13:16
Speaker 5: of them we believe are dead. There's no certainty around that. Now.
13:20
Speaker 5: Fifteen it's a tricky age, isn't it. Are you a
13:23
Speaker 5: an adult? Are you a you know? Was she being trafficked?
13:27
Speaker 5: Was this you know? Was she being exploited as a minor?
13:30
Speaker 5: Or was she actually a hardened extremist in her own right?
13:33
Speaker 5: She was marrying and interestingly she went over there to
13:36
Speaker 5: try and repopulate Isis marriage. She had three children. All
13:40
Speaker 5: those children died in the in the Isis camps. But
13:44
Speaker 5: what I think is very interesting about the story is
13:46
Speaker 5: the reason that Brexit happened is because Britain wanted divorce
13:49
Speaker 5: from from Europe. And now Europe is commanding Britain to
13:54
Speaker 5: actually allow this. You know that it's against her human
13:57
Speaker 5: rights not to be repatriated. When does a country have sovereignty?
14:01
Speaker 5: And I think that's a really interesting question.
14:02
Speaker 3: I think Britain should tell the European Human Rights Cot
14:05
Speaker 3: to just bugger off in mind its own business.
14:07
Speaker 5: Well, there's plenty of other Islamic countries where she could
14:10
Speaker 5: apply for citizenship and doubt.
14:12
Speaker 4: Let's get it.
14:12
Speaker 5: She could go to Pakistan, as you say, she could
14:14
Speaker 5: go to Belgium, where, of course the European Commission sits Look.
14:17
Speaker 5: I think it's really interesting, but the ramifications for us again,
14:21
Speaker 5: we want greater clarity on who's living next to us,
14:24
Speaker 5: where they've come from, where they've come back from, and
14:27
Speaker 5: you know what their intentions that are they being deradicalized
14:30
Speaker 5: when they come back, and how much of taxpayers money
14:32
Speaker 5: is being put into deradicalization and.
14:35
Speaker 2: Why is it the UK's job to do that? As
14:37
Speaker 2: you said, there are plenty of other countries she could
14:40
Speaker 2: go to. Oh, she could just stay in Syria for
14:42
Speaker 2: that matter. They've got a new president now who seems
14:44
Speaker 2: to be getting chummy with Trump, wants to turn the
14:47
Speaker 2: country around. He himself was a former l Kaita fighter.
14:50
Speaker 2: There's hope for everyone these days, So why doesn't she
14:53
Speaker 2: just stay there? I do understand she was fifteen, but
14:56
Speaker 2: come on, fifteen and you still have a brain and
15:00
Speaker 2: going to join Isis. I just don't think you can
15:04
Speaker 2: come back from that unless there was very clear evidence
15:08
Speaker 2: that she was trafficked or coerced. But if you freely
15:12
Speaker 2: join then.
15:12
Speaker 5: And that's why I think it does need to be
15:14
Speaker 5: on a case by case basis because it depends. You know,
15:16
Speaker 5: the fact there were three of them that went together
15:18
Speaker 5: suggested to me that there was that, you know, social cohesion.
15:22
Speaker 5: Young girls particularly particularly vulnerable to that coercion by others.
15:27
Speaker 5: So look, I don't want to sit on the fence
15:30
Speaker 5: on this, but I also think you're fifteen. Gosh, some
15:33
Speaker 5: of the things I was doing at fifteen, although I
15:35
Speaker 5: wasn't an Islamic, you were famous.
15:36
Speaker 4: Becoming an Islamic terrorist.
15:38
Speaker 3: But you know, I just it does my head in
15:40
Speaker 3: that you've got, Oh, she was fifteen, she couldn't be
15:43
Speaker 3: held responsible for that decision to become.
15:46
Speaker 4: A wife of an isis bride.
15:49
Speaker 3: But then we want to give kids puby blockers at
15:51
Speaker 3: the same time because they're well and truly able to
15:53
Speaker 3: make those sorts of authority of decisions that are going
15:55
Speaker 3: to impact their.
15:56
Speaker 4: Rest of their lives.
15:57
Speaker 3: I just you can't reconcile them both. You can't can't say,
16:00
Speaker 3: on one hand, people can try and change their biological
16:04
Speaker 3: sex and have puberty blockers, but on the other hand,
16:07
Speaker 3: they have no responsibility that age makes sensible decisions, and
16:10
Speaker 3: you know, you just can't have it both both ways.
16:12
Speaker 3: But those on the left will try and argue in
16:15
Speaker 3: one case one way and then many.
16:16
Speaker 2: Other exactly right, and what does it do to the
16:19
Speaker 2: security of Western nations? And that's the core problem we're
16:22
Speaker 2: all facing. And a country that is definitely facing that
16:25
Speaker 2: is Germany. They are looking at reintroducing conscription. In fact,
16:29
Speaker 2: their current chancellor, Friedrich Mertz, actually wanted to introduce mandatary
16:34
Speaker 2: conscription for eighteen year olds. He's kind of walked that
16:37
Speaker 2: back a bit because he's faced opposition from within his
16:39
Speaker 2: own party, but in a step towards that direction, from Thursday,
16:45
Speaker 2: all eighteen year old males in Germany will have to
16:50
Speaker 2: fill out a military questionnaire about their physical fitness and
16:55
Speaker 2: their willingness to serve in the army. If they don't
17:00
Speaker 2: don't fill out the questionnaire and they ignore repeated attempts
17:03
Speaker 2: by the military to contact them, they could be fined
17:06
Speaker 2: one thousand euros. Now this is fascinating because clearly we
17:12
Speaker 2: can see the direction this is heading in Germany is
17:14
Speaker 2: not alone. I don't know if you remember at the
17:17
Speaker 2: UK election in the last two weeks, Rishi came out
17:20
Speaker 2: promising conscription. But they're not the only European countries. Croatia
17:25
Speaker 2: is reintroducing conscription. Countries like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden all
17:30
Speaker 2: have conscription. This does seem to be the direction Europe
17:35
Speaker 2: is heading in. They are getting ready for war. Is
17:38
Speaker 2: this something we should be looked at.
17:39
Speaker 5: Notably, Hi Sona lost the election, probably largely on that
17:43
Speaker 5: is one of the main points.
17:44
Speaker 4: Look.
17:44
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting. Yes, I think Europe is much
17:46
Speaker 5: more proximate to those countries where war is taking place,
17:49
Speaker 5: to the Middle East, to Ukraine, to Russia. Is there
17:52
Speaker 5: a need? Militaries across the world are finding recruitment and
17:55
Speaker 5: retention really difficult. I wonder though, whether basic strong arming
18:01
Speaker 5: young German eighteen year olds to fill in a questionnaire
18:04
Speaker 5: about their fitness and then to find them if they don't.
18:07
Speaker 5: I'm not seeing the incentivizing there, and I think we
18:10
Speaker 5: need to look at service differently. We used to always
18:13
Speaker 5: sell being in the Defense Force as on service. That
18:16
Speaker 5: was the great honor, that's why you wanted to go
18:18
Speaker 5: into it. In recent years, the Defense Force has sold
18:21
Speaker 5: on adventure. If you want to go into it. Now,
18:23
Speaker 5: it's about having these fun experiences, going on a ship,
18:26
Speaker 5: going on an aircraft. The one thing that countries aren't
18:30
Speaker 5: selling are the benefits. And I'm not sure why they're
18:32
Speaker 5: not doing that because there are plenty of benetfits to
18:35
Speaker 5: being in the Defense Force. You get a free education,
18:38
Speaker 5: you get your rent subsidize, you get your health. Why
18:40
Speaker 5: are they not using that as an incentive to pull
18:43
Speaker 5: people into defense forces? And I'm surprised there's not more publication,
18:47
Speaker 5: more publicity around how it can actually set you up
18:50
Speaker 5: for life. Instead of having a forty thousand hex step
18:53
Speaker 5: in Australia, you can actually start off from a base.
18:56
Speaker 5: You can actually go through university earning a salary. Now,
18:59
Speaker 5: I'm not quite sure why that's not publicized more broadly.
19:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, so about that.
19:04
Speaker 3: I know your daughter's in the Defense Force, and my
19:05
Speaker 3: daughter's about to start university, and I'm very much trying
19:08
Speaker 3: to convince her to look at the specialist program which
19:11
Speaker 3: is through the ADF, because you know, when you're looking
19:13
Speaker 3: at that price of housing and those sorts of things,
19:15
Speaker 3: I think it's a really good point that you make
19:16
Speaker 3: that the actual benefits of being in the services can
19:19
Speaker 3: set you up as a young person. But I on
19:23
Speaker 3: the conscription issue, I remember having a conversation with the
19:26
Speaker 3: late Jim Molin with regards to conscription and what his
19:28
Speaker 3: thoughts around that were, and I still remember him making
19:32
Speaker 3: the point that do you really want a defense force
19:34
Speaker 3: field with people who don't want to be there? And
19:37
Speaker 3: so it was a really strong viewpoint that he had
19:39
Speaker 3: that it wasn't the right way to do things. But
19:43
Speaker 3: you know, I think in Australia, if you look at
19:45
Speaker 3: the number of kids who are not gainfully employed, who
19:48
Speaker 3: are not studying and have access to a lot of
19:52
Speaker 3: social welfare benefits, then perhaps there does need to be
19:56
Speaker 3: something in return for that. And if you are a fit,
20:00
Speaker 3: capable person under twenty five, well maybe wouldn't be a
20:04
Speaker 3: bad thing for you rather than just picking up the doll.
20:07
Speaker 3: You know, we're not allowed to have work for the
20:08
Speaker 3: doll anymore. And all of these programs because it, you know,
20:11
Speaker 3: offended the left sensitivities, but you know that Heaven forbid
20:14
Speaker 3: you actually do something for your nation.
20:16
Speaker 4: But there are and there are payments.
20:18
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of benefits as well that
20:20
Speaker 2: do come from military service, like you can actually learn skills.
20:23
Speaker 2: In Israel, for example, a lot of people come out
20:26
Speaker 2: of the defense force and starts do startups together because
20:29
Speaker 2: they've learned technical skills, and defense is highly technical these days.
20:34
Speaker 5: As well, security services, logistics intelligence. Do you know what
20:38
Speaker 5: I would do if I was the German Chancellor, I
20:39
Speaker 5: would pay Tom Cruise five million more would five million
20:43
Speaker 5: won't be much. I'd pay him a billion dollars to
20:47
Speaker 5: come and make Top Gun three in set it in
20:50
Speaker 5: Germany because that film has done more for recruitment around
20:53
Speaker 5: the world than anything else. That's what I could one can.
20:57
Speaker 5: So he's probaly getting a bit long in the truth now,
21:00
Speaker 5: but seriously that made you know.
21:02
Speaker 3: Just have the volleyball scene again from Top Gun number
21:06
Speaker 3: one and that might help with recruitment too for all
21:08
Speaker 3: those single girls out there.
21:10
Speaker 4: Well.
21:10
Speaker 2: Another area where we may need to be thinking about
21:13
Speaker 2: how we defend ourselves is against AI and the rising
21:16
Speaker 2: threats that we face. Angela, You've done a fair bit
21:19
Speaker 2: of work around this, and now we've seen open AI.
21:24
Speaker 2: They're advertising an eight hundred thousand dollars a year job
21:28
Speaker 2: to be head of Preparedness to basically protect humanity against
21:32
Speaker 2: the impacts of AI. When AI companies are advertising for that.
21:38
Speaker 2: It doesn't fill you with confidence.
21:40
Speaker 5: It doesn't. And also this story around AI chat books
21:44
Speaker 5: being linked to psychosis and the concern that doctors have.
21:47
Speaker 5: Now I've been so I did some work on a
21:50
Speaker 5: story on this and one of the Sydney University experts
21:52
Speaker 5: I spoke to he likened it to this. He said
21:56
Speaker 5: that if you can see social media as a gate
22:00
Speaker 5: drug like marijuana, then AI is a drug like crystal meth.
22:05
Speaker 5: It is that addictive and it is that problematic. And
22:07
Speaker 5: in the deep dive I did in this piece, what
22:09
Speaker 5: I discovered was that because we now have an epidepica
22:13
Speaker 5: of loneliness and young kids they were in gaming, they
22:17
Speaker 5: now on their phones have a chatbot that can talk
22:20
Speaker 5: to them about anything, and they are going to these
22:22
Speaker 5: chat books for therapy, for advice. And this is why
22:24
Speaker 5: we've seen cases in the US where children have taken
22:28
Speaker 5: their own lives on the advice of chatbots. Now I've
22:31
Speaker 5: tested myself. I have put into it things that I
22:34
Speaker 5: have asked a chatbot for advice. I ended up writing
22:37
Speaker 5: a column and the chatbot said to me, humans like us,
22:41
Speaker 5: And I said to it, you are not a human,
22:44
Speaker 5: and it went, oh, yes, you're right, thank you for
22:46
Speaker 5: calling me out on this. So if I'm being told
22:49
Speaker 5: by a chatbot that they are a human, then I
22:52
Speaker 5: challenged them on it. Then where are young kids without
22:55
Speaker 5: that prefrontal cortex questioning? Using these device is for therapy,
23:00
Speaker 5: for advice, for direction unless and you know, to the
23:04
Speaker 5: point of where we should be going with AI. There
23:06
Speaker 5: should be AI when these conversations are coming up. Is
23:11
Speaker 5: sending these vulnerable kids to the right agencies. And look,
23:14
Speaker 5: I think it's great of Open AI to be having
23:17
Speaker 5: a self monitoring you know, effectively its own HR department.
23:20
Speaker 5: But I imagine they're doing that because of all everything
23:23
Speaker 5: that happened with META in terms of the criticism that
23:25
Speaker 5: it's had over the years.
23:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, but so, like you know, I was shadow Minister
23:29
Speaker 3: for Mental Health and meeting with youth mental health groups.
23:34
Speaker 3: They actually use AI to talk to young people that
23:39
Speaker 3: reach out to the service.
23:40
Speaker 4: But the way that.
23:41
Speaker 3: They have it structured because it's not generative, you know AI,
23:45
Speaker 3: it's only it's only what's in there. And so they
23:48
Speaker 3: then set the parameters up with the materials that they
23:51
Speaker 3: put in that the chatbok can then draw on. But
23:55
Speaker 3: it's interesting that you've got organizations that are using it
23:57
Speaker 3: officially chatbots to offer those sort of services, and then
24:02
Speaker 3: where they are outside if you just go into a chat,
24:04
Speaker 3: GPT or another platform. So you know, it's really difficult,
24:08
Speaker 3: but I think again, you know, we can't completely absolve
24:11
Speaker 3: ourselves of any personal responsibility.
24:14
Speaker 4: And you know, parents need.
24:17
Speaker 3: To teach their kids that if they've got an issue,
24:18
Speaker 3: don't ask chat, GPT, talk to your parents, or go
24:22
Speaker 3: and talk to someone else.
24:23
Speaker 4: You know, we can't just sort of all put our
24:25
Speaker 4: hands up in the air.
24:26
Speaker 3: And go it's all it's fault and progression there of
24:29
Speaker 3: technology because it still comes down to personal and parental responsibility.
24:33
Speaker 2: And there are also going to be huge benefits from
24:36
Speaker 2: AI as well. And there still is a lot of
24:38
Speaker 2: debate around exactly how many jobs will be taken by AI.
24:41
Speaker 2: Some say eighty percent of jobs. Others say, well no,
24:44
Speaker 2: it'll just change jobs and mean you have to use
24:47
Speaker 2: more human skills because things that are easily automated they
24:51
Speaker 2: will be by AI. So will be interesting to see
24:53
Speaker 2: how this evolves. But ladies, I want to get your
24:56
Speaker 2: thoughts on this. Imagine you were going on a first
24:59
Speaker 2: date and a guy comes to the date and he
25:02
Speaker 2: brings lasagna. Well that's what happened to this young woman,
25:08
Speaker 2: and she was pretty impressed.
25:11
Speaker 1: I just got back from a date. Okay, this was
25:13
Speaker 1: a hinge first date. My hinge prompt, the most popular
25:16
Speaker 1: prompt on my Hinge is my love language is known
25:20
Speaker 1: as lasagna. This man remembered my prompt and what do
25:23
Speaker 1: I see at the bar next to him?
25:29
Speaker 4: This is lasagna.
25:31
Speaker 1: He had brought lasagna, his homemade lasagna recipe for me
25:35
Speaker 1: to try. I'm not going to tell him how good
25:42
Speaker 1: it is because he will get a big head.
25:44
Speaker 5: But that's amazing.
25:45
Speaker 2: It's awesome. And you know what we talk about, how
25:50
Speaker 2: dating standards are subterranean. Men have no mans anymore, there
25:55
Speaker 2: is no chivalry. But that is pretty nice and for
25:58
Speaker 2: that to have happened from a dating app on the.
26:00
Speaker 5: I love this story because they're always bagging young men.
26:04
Speaker 5: We're always having a go that they're toxic and the
26:07
Speaker 5: listening to Andrew tape. But look, just as a follow
26:09
Speaker 5: up to the story, my daughter was working last a
26:12
Speaker 5: couple of weeks ago. She was going to office Chris
26:14
Speaker 5: or no, She's coming from work, going to a Christmas
26:16
Speaker 5: party and she didn't have time to take a plate,
26:19
Speaker 5: so she rang her boyfriend and asked him to make
26:21
Speaker 5: her a caesar salad to take to the date to
26:24
Speaker 5: their to the girl's dinner, She swung by his house,
26:27
Speaker 5: packed up that picked up the caesar cellar, took it,
26:29
Speaker 5: and the next time I saw him, I said, you know, Josh,
26:32
Speaker 5: that's amazing. I can't believe that was a really cool
26:34
Speaker 5: thing to do. They don't care that that's the great
26:37
Speaker 5: thing that their generation actually do not see any gender
26:41
Speaker 5: roles anymore in that respect, And I think it's fantastic,
26:44
Speaker 5: and I think this young woman she should marry him.
26:46
Speaker 4: Well, he called it was a good look. He called
26:49
Speaker 4: it off. He called it off. The relationship wasn't really
26:52
Speaker 4: worth pursuing.
26:53
Speaker 2: He's going to.
26:55
Speaker 5: Be making a lot of lasagners, then, isn't it.
26:59
Speaker 2: Well okay, Apparently for context, he called it off because
27:02
Speaker 2: he then looked through social media and realized they didn't
27:06
Speaker 2: have the same values, and he said, he was story,
27:11
Speaker 2: I'll hang on a second.
27:12
Speaker 5: They don't have the same values because he's the type
27:14
Speaker 5: of guy that makes lasagna and she's an influencer and both.
27:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think she's actually quite religious and of strong
27:22
Speaker 3: faith based background, and he basically said, look, that's not
27:25
Speaker 3: really my thing, so we should probably now. But you know,
27:27
Speaker 3: I think Lazagnia could overcome a whole lot of those things.
27:30
Speaker 5: That would be a way to my heart. Sure. Yeah, yeah,
27:34
Speaker 5: it's not an easy too, she said, you all that layering.
27:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. Well look there you go, man, if
27:40
Speaker 2: you want some inspiration, look at that guy. He's doing
27:43
Speaker 2: pretty well. Coming up after the break, we're going to
27:45
Speaker 2: talk about New Year's resolutions. Do you have any, will
27:49
Speaker 2: share ours, and we'll also discuss do they actually work?
27:57
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the program. Well, there was a lot
28:00
Speaker 2: of criticism last night about the ABC's New's Eve coverage,
28:05
Speaker 2: and particularly questioning the choice of acts leading in to
28:10
Speaker 2: the midnight fireworks. I did just admit in the ad
28:14
Speaker 2: break I had not heard of half of these people,
28:17
Speaker 2: and most of them were famous before I was even born,
28:21
Speaker 2: and so, frankly, I do understand the criticism. Here. We
28:25
Speaker 2: are a global city. The Sydney fireworks are the most
28:29
Speaker 2: iconic New Year's Eve celebrations in the world. Surely we
28:33
Speaker 2: can do better than a washed up spice girl.
28:35
Speaker 4: Oh look, I'm sorry, Frayer.
28:37
Speaker 3: I appreciate you weren't born yet, but the Spice Girls
28:39
Speaker 3: are something that should still be admired and respected at
28:42
Speaker 3: all given moments. So if you've never watched Spice Girl
28:45
Speaker 3: the movie, I suggest there's your viewing tomorrow. I was
28:49
Speaker 3: actually at a friend's for dinner after we left here
28:51
Speaker 3: last night, and you know, every now and then I
28:54
Speaker 3: have a blonde moment, and it took me a while
28:56
Speaker 3: to realize that the coverage that was on the TV
28:59
Speaker 3: was not of music that was actually playing, because I'm like,
29:02
Speaker 3: this is the worst lipsyne job I've.
29:04
Speaker 5: Ever saying next to you had trust me.
29:07
Speaker 4: I'd only just arrived when yeah, it's a bit blonde.
29:11
Speaker 2: Hole and you were terrible Angela. Have you ever heard
29:15
Speaker 2: of Casey Donovan, The Cat Empire and Matt Corby?
29:19
Speaker 4: I've not the last one.
29:21
Speaker 5: I had to see The Cat Empire. Matt Corby's brilliant
29:24
Speaker 5: and a Casey Donovan I love. My problem with the
29:27
Speaker 5: ABC is that it's how they produce it. It all feels
29:31
Speaker 5: so nineteen seventies.
29:33
Speaker 4: It's dull.
29:34
Speaker 5: They were talking about play school after nine o'clock. I mean,
29:37
Speaker 5: I know kids are coming home from the nine o'clock fiveways.
29:39
Speaker 5: But it's not like parents are sitting them down in
29:41
Speaker 5: front of the telly for the next three hours. They
29:43
Speaker 5: want those kids to bed. So it's kind of I
29:45
Speaker 5: don't know, very great, you know, great to honor your
29:47
Speaker 5: own programs. I just I just don't get it, and
29:50
Speaker 5: I think we can do better. It can be shinier.
29:52
Speaker 5: You know. This is where you need actually a commercial
29:54
Speaker 5: network to get on board and deliver what we will
29:56
Speaker 5: all want to be well.
29:57
Speaker 3: And also a commercial network probably wouldn't play the politics
30:00
Speaker 3: like the OBC did last night and didn't show the
30:02
Speaker 3: Anora as it was on the bridge, so you know
30:07
Speaker 3: the fact that they politicize emotion, you know, something like
30:10
Speaker 3: that during the fireworks.
30:12
Speaker 4: National Broadcaster, who've already.
30:13
Speaker 3: Been admonished for our having and it's sort of reponsibility
30:17
Speaker 3: to the.
30:17
Speaker 5: Electric we're paying you for it. You actually have to
30:19
Speaker 5: cover faithfully what happened.
30:20
Speaker 4: What's happening, what suits your political agenda.
30:23
Speaker 2: Well, my newear's resolution for our nation is for the
30:26
Speaker 2: National Broadcaster to actually will either be abolished or get
30:30
Speaker 2: good at its job, which I don't think is very likely.
30:34
Speaker 2: But Angela, you've written an interesting column where you basically
30:37
Speaker 2: just say news resolutions are pointless.
30:39
Speaker 5: Say our pointless. And I say this from the point
30:42
Speaker 5: of view of somebody who last year decided I was
30:45
Speaker 5: going to get ripped, and not only to decide that
30:48
Speaker 5: I was going to get ripped. I I pitched it
30:49
Speaker 5: to Body and Soul, who were part of Newscook, and
30:52
Speaker 5: they said, yeah, yeah, let's run that in much And
30:54
Speaker 5: I said, oh, can we push that out to May? Anyway?
30:56
Speaker 5: Turning down invitations every Saturday night, And then I was
30:59
Speaker 5: coming out of the one night at seven o'clock on
31:02
Speaker 5: a Saturday night, bumped into friends i'd turned down to
31:05
Speaker 5: go and have a drink with. And my friend texted
31:07
Speaker 5: me and said, what are you going to do when
31:09
Speaker 5: you actually reach your goal? And reminded me of something
31:13
Speaker 5: I had read by a former columnist, a brilliant guy
31:17
Speaker 5: who wrote a book called four Thousand Weeks, and he said,
31:20
Speaker 5: there's this thing called an arrival fallacy. And it's a
31:23
Speaker 5: fallacy that when you arrive at your goal, that your
31:26
Speaker 5: whole life will be optimized. You will be have the
31:28
Speaker 5: perfect body, you will have read all the books that
31:30
Speaker 5: you want to read, you will eat nutritionally, you'll sleep perfectly.
31:34
Speaker 5: It never actually happens. This is why news resolutions are
31:38
Speaker 5: utterly poitness is that you don't at the minute you
31:40
Speaker 5: arrive at them, there's something else that needs to be achieved.
31:43
Speaker 5: You think of athletes. The minute they break a PB,
31:46
Speaker 5: there's the next ppe to break. So you now wanting
31:49
Speaker 5: to know whether I got ripped right, Well I didn't.
31:51
Speaker 5: I gave up on that and I went back to
31:55
Speaker 5: my very moderate, boring life. Well, yes I do work out,
31:57
Speaker 5: but there was no I felt no compunction to get ripped.
32:00
Speaker 4: I've got enough going on in my life.
32:02
Speaker 3: I don't need to put any more pressure on myself
32:04
Speaker 3: whatsoever to make some unrealistic expectations which I'm just going
32:08
Speaker 3: to fail miserably out.
32:09
Speaker 4: And I think that's one of.
32:11
Speaker 3: The things joys of getting older is you're well aware
32:13
Speaker 3: of the fact that it's just not going to happen.
32:16
Speaker 3: And there's no way I'm fitting yoga into every day anymore.
32:20
Speaker 4: You know, yoga worked.
32:20
Speaker 3: During COVID when we were locked down for a minute,
32:22
Speaker 3: and then it's all over.
32:25
Speaker 5: What about RAYA? You must have a resolution.
32:27
Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person that I like a bit
32:30
Speaker 2: of pressure. I like a goal that I want to achieve,
32:33
Speaker 2: So My goal is definitely to read more this year.
32:36
Speaker 2: I used to read a lot and then you know,
32:39
Speaker 2: life just gets in the way and you get busy
32:41
Speaker 2: and it feels too hard. So that would be my
32:43
Speaker 2: goal for this year. But as someone who does go
32:45
Speaker 2: to the gym regularly, it does frustrate me because the
32:48
Speaker 2: first two weeks in January is just horrible and then
32:53
Speaker 2: it goes back to normal. But if you do have
32:55
Speaker 2: a year's resolution, I hope you stick to it because
32:57
Speaker 2: I think we all will be better off if we,
32:59
Speaker 2: you know, do little bits every day to improve ourselves.
33:01
Speaker 3: I can actually promise you that I will never be
33:04
Speaker 3: that person in the gym for two weeks. I just
33:07
Speaker 3: don't start how you plan to not finish, so won't
33:11
Speaker 3: be seeing you there. But I do have some admiration
33:15
Speaker 3: for a British hacker who has hacked his way into
33:20
Speaker 3: Australian government websites and then pointed out to the Australian
33:24
Speaker 3: government everything that was doing wrong and how easy it
33:26
Speaker 3: was to get access to it. So the hacker has
33:29
Speaker 3: now been granted a visa and he's thirty six Jacob
33:33
Speaker 3: Riggs from Bexley in Southeast London, and he's never, he
33:37
Speaker 3: didn't finish school from memory, and yet he's been given
33:42
Speaker 3: this visa that goes to highly skilled professionals.
33:45
Speaker 4: And the reality is is the people.
33:47
Speaker 3: That get this visa normally are Nobel Prize winners or
33:50
Speaker 3: gold medal winning Olympic athletes.
33:52
Speaker 4: So I think we're seeing a.
33:54
Speaker 3: Real evolution of what's being valued in societies. And I
33:57
Speaker 3: think the fact that this guy was able to hack
33:58
Speaker 3: into the website and then when rather than do anything
34:01
Speaker 3: around it, say you know, guys, you've got a bit
34:03
Speaker 3: of a problem here, and so they're bringing him out
34:05
Speaker 3: to make sure that the cybersecurity work that he's doing
34:07
Speaker 3: can be done in Australia.
34:09
Speaker 4: Fantastic.
34:10
Speaker 5: He should be working for our security agencies.
34:12
Speaker 2: Shouldn't he?
34:13
Speaker 4: And I would, unlike the Russians and.
34:14
Speaker 5: The changes exactly. Look, I think this is exactly the
34:18
Speaker 5: test should be good if you're trying to get into
34:20
Speaker 5: it and you set up a fake site that you
34:22
Speaker 5: want somebody to hack in to.
34:24
Speaker 4: Look.
34:24
Speaker 5: Of course, you know, we need nurses, we need migrants
34:26
Speaker 5: and people that come in here. Goodness knows, if we
34:29
Speaker 5: didn't have Filipino and Vietnamese and Nepalese nurses, we would
34:34
Speaker 5: have our health system would grind to a close. But
34:38
Speaker 5: I do think that how the test has changed over
34:40
Speaker 5: the years as to who we pull in and why,
34:43
Speaker 5: you know, whether they're through marriage or whatever reason.
34:46
Speaker 4: I love this.
34:46
Speaker 5: It's tenacious, it's interesting. He's genuinely deserves to be here.
34:50
Speaker 5: He's got a skill set that we want. How can
34:53
Speaker 5: we monetize this to actually pull the people that have
34:56
Speaker 5: this techability?
34:57
Speaker 2: And he didn't just hack into any old gu website.
35:01
Speaker 2: He hacked into the DEFAT website, the Department of Foreign
35:05
Speaker 2: Affairs and Trade through multiple points and then turn it
35:09
Speaker 2: over and said, look what I can do now. The
35:11
Speaker 2: Global Talent Visa, which is the visa he's now been granted,
35:15
Speaker 2: is awarded to less than one percent of applicants, so
35:18
Speaker 2: it's very exclusive. And to be honest, I think this
35:22
Speaker 2: is a very meritorious visa right here.
35:26
Speaker 5: More useful than than a former Olympian, because really, what
35:31
Speaker 5: are they going to add to our domestic product or
35:33
Speaker 5: our productivity?
35:34
Speaker 4: Not a lot.
35:35
Speaker 5: Speaking, I'm not sure that there's no segue here. You
35:39
Speaker 5: guys have just there for me. I've been done, and
35:42
Speaker 5: there's that I've been done with this story, So let
35:45
Speaker 5: me get these formal bit out of the way. So
35:47
Speaker 5: public nudity is banned in Australia, but legal newd beaches
35:51
Speaker 5: are the exception to the rule, and there's about two
35:53
Speaker 5: dozen registered legal new beaches throughout the country in all
35:56
Speaker 5: states and territories except one. Guess which one it is.
36:00
Speaker 5: And you're not go nude Tasmania, Queensland anyway.
36:04
Speaker 4: One place you probably could do it.
36:06
Speaker 5: It's the warmest anyway. There's a story in the papers today.
36:11
Speaker 5: Obviously it's the first day of the of the of
36:14
Speaker 5: the year, so we're looking around for funny stories. This
36:16
Speaker 5: is a story about people who love going to nude beaches.
36:19
Speaker 5: And as we're sitting in the meeting beforehand, I fessed
36:22
Speaker 5: up that I am a huge nude beach and it's
36:26
Speaker 5: not like I go and look for them. But if
36:28
Speaker 5: I'm on a holiday and I find and these guys
36:31
Speaker 5: have no idea the joy of a naked swim. Look
36:34
Speaker 5: at you both. You're just looking at me, and you
36:38
Speaker 5: look as you're imagining me naked.
36:40
Speaker 4: I'm imagining I'm imagining.
36:43
Speaker 3: The old guys that seem to since you don't go
36:47
Speaker 3: to them prime specimens suit ind to normally be the
36:51
Speaker 3: nude beach.
36:52
Speaker 5: You know how it works on a nude beach. So
36:53
Speaker 5: you walk along and they usually on a down a bushwalk.
36:56
Speaker 5: You get there, there's no one to be seen as
36:59
Speaker 5: beautiful days. This is going to feel amazing because the
37:01
Speaker 5: water on your skin the minute you get in the water,
37:04
Speaker 5: it's like all these old men come out of the
37:07
Speaker 5: bottles and let's just say there's some bits of their
37:10
Speaker 5: anatomy that seem to drag on the sand. Anyway, I
37:12
Speaker 5: think we've got a nice picture of me having a
37:14
Speaker 5: nerd swim. They may not odd there, I am. Wow.
37:17
Speaker 2: That's in Scotland.
37:18
Speaker 5: In September, so you know I'm not don't just contain
37:21
Speaker 5: my nude swimming to Australia. That was pretty freezing. That's
37:26
Speaker 5: up in me on the Isle of Mull in Scotland.
37:29
Speaker 2: So look, I you can say.
37:34
Speaker 4: It's because you look. I don't deny you know that.
37:38
Speaker 3: I'm sure it feels amazing to swim without the bikinni
37:43
Speaker 3: or the swimmers.
37:44
Speaker 4: On or whatever.
37:44
Speaker 3: I'm just not sure I want to share that experience
37:47
Speaker 3: in any sort of public environment.
37:49
Speaker 2: And this is the interesting thing. So in this article the.
37:52
Speaker 4: Benefit as well as mine.
37:54
Speaker 2: The head of the Australian Naturist Federation that they call
37:58
Speaker 2: themselves natureist set of nudists. But she was lamenting that
38:03
Speaker 2: younger people seem less interested in nude beaches and younger
38:07
Speaker 2: people tend to be actually more conservative. And I totally
38:11
Speaker 2: understand what she's saying, at least in my experience. I
38:14
Speaker 2: just don't see any appeal in it whatsoever. I am
38:18
Speaker 2: perfectly happy to wear clothing and I'm happy for everyone
38:23
Speaker 2: else to keep theirs on too.
38:24
Speaker 3: I just love that they say, you know, we don't
38:27
Speaker 3: want to walk down the street naked, but we would
38:30
Speaker 3: like to go.
38:30
Speaker 4: For a hack. I mean, you want to go hiking
38:34
Speaker 4: in the nude. Well, please explain that.
38:37
Speaker 5: Now I want to be wanting to.
38:39
Speaker 2: That's too far.
38:40
Speaker 5: There's too much gingery at risk that you just want
38:42
Speaker 5: to get your clothes off, get in the water, come
38:44
Speaker 5: back out, put your chail around you.
38:46
Speaker 2: There are definitely practical benefits to it, no swimmers and
38:50
Speaker 2: it's absolute handlin.
38:51
Speaker 5: Can I suggest frayer eleven o'clock one night, quietly somewhere
38:56
Speaker 5: where there's you know, not a lot of people around.
38:57
Speaker 5: Give it a go. You'll be surprised.
39:00
Speaker 3: Well, you're convinced probably not need to go to a
39:03
Speaker 3: nood beach to do that, because if she just doesn't
39:05
Speaker 3: at Kernella, what did you get.
39:06
Speaker 4: In a bit of trouble?
39:07
Speaker 5: You like me?
39:09
Speaker 2: I don't want to see the right biol article comes
39:11
Speaker 2: out of that one. Well, let's move on now. It's
39:14
Speaker 2: really a social media ban and came into force on
39:16
Speaker 2: December tenth. We know that Anika Wells was off in
39:19
Speaker 2: New York's breaking it and trying to make Australia really
39:23
Speaker 2: the pinnacle of global leadership on social media censorship essentially,
39:29
Speaker 2: but now other countries seem to be following our lead.
39:32
Speaker 2: France is looking at introducing a ban for under fifteen's
39:36
Speaker 2: for social media. The UK has signaled they're also open
39:40
Speaker 2: to it. So, Holly, do you think we have started
39:43
Speaker 2: basically this global shift towards policing social media? Personally, when
39:49
Speaker 2: the ban was first being discussed, I was strongly in
39:52
Speaker 2: favor of it as someone who did grow up as
39:55
Speaker 2: a gen Z. I had my first social media accounts
39:57
Speaker 2: when I was probably eleven or twelve, and I did
40:01
Speaker 2: see the harm it did, particularly to young girls when
40:05
Speaker 2: we're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. It was terrible but when you
40:09
Speaker 2: look at how this is actually being implemented, the potential
40:13
Speaker 2: for it to be used in the wrong way and
40:16
Speaker 2: government overreached that could result from it. Are you worried
40:19
Speaker 2: at all about what we in Australia may have set
40:22
Speaker 2: off globally?
40:23
Speaker 3: And I think this is nothing but political gesturing. I
40:25
Speaker 3: think it's going to achieve absolutely nothing. Kids are, if
40:29
Speaker 3: not very inventive at how to get around all of
40:32
Speaker 3: these sorts of things, and as we know, as apps
40:35
Speaker 3: were being banned, the kids were just going to different
40:39
Speaker 3: apps that haven't been banned yet. So interestingly, after BONDI
40:43
Speaker 3: has occurred, Anaka Well's not only got away from her
40:46
Speaker 3: travel expenses, but has not yet had to really report
40:49
Speaker 3: to anyone about how successful this ban has been. I
40:53
Speaker 3: do think it's about sense ship. I do think it's
40:55
Speaker 3: about controlling the message. Kids are going to get around it,
40:58
Speaker 3: and it's political posturing. I think politicians around the world
41:01
Speaker 3: and I think parents have been looking for something. I
41:05
Speaker 3: just don't think this is the answer at all.
41:08
Speaker 5: Look, January ten will mark one month from what I'm hearing,
41:12
Speaker 5: and I'm doing some work for the UK on how
41:14
Speaker 5: it is working here, so I'm actually been speaking to
41:16
Speaker 5: a lot of teens to find out whether they have
41:19
Speaker 5: been affected by the ban. Virtually, I would say of
41:23
Speaker 5: the ten fifteen I've spoken to, only one has been
41:27
Speaker 5: knocked back on any social media site, So from Snapchat
41:30
Speaker 5: to Instagram, they TikTok, they have Yes, they may have
41:34
Speaker 5: been asked for age verification, but they have tricks around it.
41:37
Speaker 5: They screw up their faces so they look like they
41:39
Speaker 5: have more wrinkles. They start doing searchers on their phones
41:42
Speaker 5: for things like aged care or for booking flights or
41:46
Speaker 5: things that will make them look the algorithm will think
41:48
Speaker 5: that they are older. So in terms of us seeing
41:52
Speaker 5: the efficacy of the policy, I don't think we're going
41:55
Speaker 5: to see it or and I certainly don't think that
41:56
Speaker 5: we're going to achieve what we want to. And as
41:59
Speaker 5: you know, you know, News Corpus pushed very very strongly
42:02
Speaker 5: on let them be kids, and I feel as that
42:05
Speaker 5: you know, I've raised two daughters who in who went
42:07
Speaker 5: through that age group as well, and I don't want
42:10
Speaker 5: I want this band to walk, but I don't think
42:14
Speaker 5: doing it through the tech companies. Now as I've seen
42:16
Speaker 5: it unfold, I think it's going to be an issue
42:18
Speaker 5: with hardware, is that are you actually going to be
42:21
Speaker 5: allowed to have a phone over under sixteen? Because I
42:23
Speaker 5: think that is the only way to stop. It has
42:27
Speaker 5: to be a physical bear barrier. They find a way
42:29
Speaker 5: around it. And the worst thing we can do is
42:31
Speaker 5: having gone into it, is to then find that we've
42:33
Speaker 5: failed at it. Yeah, you have France following it. We
42:36
Speaker 5: have to it has We have to change the environment.
42:39
Speaker 5: The suicides, the bullying, the enormous social media pressure around
42:44
Speaker 5: body image, all sorts of things. We do need to
42:46
Speaker 5: change this for you know, Jonathan Hate's book is extraordinary
42:49
Speaker 5: in terms of you know, this over governance in the
42:52
Speaker 5: physical world and under governance of our kids in the
42:55
Speaker 5: in the in the virtual world, in the online world.
42:59
Speaker 5: We have to do something. Has this been the right thing?
43:02
Speaker 5: I don't think it's going to turn out to be
43:04
Speaker 5: And I say that with deep sadness.
43:07
Speaker 2: Exactly right, and it is. It's just one of those
43:10
Speaker 2: hard ones where I do see both sides. But I
43:13
Speaker 2: think ultimately responsibility has to lie with parents and they
43:17
Speaker 2: have to know that if you even give your kids
43:19
Speaker 2: a smartphone, there's no such fear.
43:21
Speaker 5: Can I say as a parent it was utterly impossible
43:24
Speaker 5: because unless the tribe is doing it, unless every other
43:28
Speaker 5: parent is doing it, your child will bearate. It will
43:30
Speaker 5: go on and on. And yes, you have to hold
43:32
Speaker 5: a strong line. And I've sat on these panels and
43:34
Speaker 5: everyone said, you know, yeah, the parents, it's up to
43:36
Speaker 5: the parents. Parents cannot direct this issue without the rest
43:42
Speaker 5: of the community alongside them. They have to have that
43:45
Speaker 5: legislation to be able to push it through with their kids.
43:48
Speaker 5: And it is damaging families and damaging relationships. And we
43:52
Speaker 5: need a platform, just as we had it for seat belts,
43:54
Speaker 5: for alcohol, for drugs, for the age that we're allowed
43:57
Speaker 5: to have sex. We need a platform, and we need sorry,
44:00
Speaker 5: and we need legislation to give us a backbone and
44:04
Speaker 5: a framework to be able to handle out not handle,
44:07
Speaker 5: but to be able to help our kids with something
44:10
Speaker 5: that's very destructive to their life.
44:12
Speaker 3: And I think when you say, you know, the hardware
44:13
Speaker 3: is a great point in Jonathan Hates book The Act
44:15
Speaker 3: Generation Sensational, But you know, and you talk about not
44:18
Speaker 3: giving kids smartphones, but there's actually some really good stuff
44:21
Speaker 3: that you can use on smartphones, like Life three sixty.
44:25
Speaker 3: Not that you're stalking in kids, but you can see
44:27
Speaker 3: where they are and you know, it was part of
44:29
Speaker 3: the condition when my daughter got a car was that
44:31
Speaker 3: she had life three sixty because it actually tells you
44:33
Speaker 3: how fast they're driving.
44:34
Speaker 5: And for your benefits, your mum have life three sixty
44:37
Speaker 5: on yoube wouldn't have known where is any giving independent
44:43
Speaker 5: you are? Look how safe you've been because you actually
44:46
Speaker 5: have to appreciate risks by myself, Yes, because you looked
44:49
Speaker 5: at your own risks. Now, if we can as parents
44:52
Speaker 5: step back and think we don't need to monitor our
44:54
Speaker 5: kids every minute of the day, and we can actually
44:57
Speaker 5: give them the independence that they and the risk taking,
45:01
Speaker 5: they will have a sense of capability and of strength
45:03
Speaker 5: and a self determination to actually want to run their
45:07
Speaker 5: own lives and not be so driven by what's on here.
45:10
Speaker 3: And I think developing resilience in children is one of
45:13
Speaker 3: the things that's been significantly lacking. If you look at
45:16
Speaker 3: a lot of the generations coming through, they just don't
45:18
Speaker 3: have that sort of ability to make their own decisions.
45:22
Speaker 3: I mean I used to get up on a weekend
45:24
Speaker 3: and head off to the tennis courts or the beach
45:26
Speaker 3: or whatever, and I wouldn't get home until I mean,
45:28
Speaker 3: you hear that series and I'm not that old, but
45:30
Speaker 3: you hear the stories of people. You know, you went
45:32
Speaker 3: out and you came home when the sun was up,
45:34
Speaker 3: and there were no my gold friends. You know, you
45:36
Speaker 3: may have called your mum from whose ever house you
45:39
Speaker 3: ended up later in the afternoon, but you just you
45:43
Speaker 3: didn't have access to this, But the kids have had
45:45
Speaker 3: it since the birth and all sense of.
45:47
Speaker 5: Peace and yourself and how you operated in the world.
45:50
Speaker 5: Wasn't it so much greater?
45:52
Speaker 4: Yeah?
45:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And there was more, you know, independence and
45:56
Speaker 3: ability to make decisions in your parents didn't know where
45:58
Speaker 3: you were and what was going on. But you know,
46:00
Speaker 3: as I say, getting around things. You've got around things
46:02
Speaker 3: with folk ideas back in the day when they were
46:04
Speaker 3: actual physical licenses.
46:07
Speaker 4: Not that you know, so I heard through a friend.
46:09
Speaker 3: But one of the issues we do have coming up
46:11
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six is a gaping budget black hole.
46:16
Speaker 4: And this is the result.
46:17
Speaker 3: Of decisions that have been made by governments and successive
46:20
Speaker 3: governments that have maintained and two of those big decisions
46:24
Speaker 3: that have caused this black hole.
46:26
Speaker 4: It one is tobacco excise.
46:28
Speaker 3: So it's a syntax because for people that smoke and
46:31
Speaker 3: the expectation that they were going to make so much
46:35
Speaker 3: money out of charging smokers more and more for each
46:39
Speaker 3: cigarette that they consumed.
46:40
Speaker 4: So what's happened.
46:41
Speaker 3: The black market has gone bananas and any excise that
46:46
Speaker 3: the government was hoping to put into the coffers has
46:50
Speaker 3: completely diminished. And you know one of the other things
46:54
Speaker 3: that I think you know and obviously the GST deal
46:57
Speaker 3: with WA, and we know that no government is they
47:00
Speaker 3: are going to stand up and say to WA, actually,
47:02
Speaker 3: you're not going to.
47:03
Speaker 4: Have all that money.
47:04
Speaker 3: And that was all based on a false premits that
47:05
Speaker 3: iron all prices were going to drop. But we need
47:08
Speaker 3: little courage in this country if we're going to start
47:10
Speaker 3: to see any budget repair. I just feel that the
47:14
Speaker 3: main two parties of government have lost any will to
47:17
Speaker 3: do budget repair.
47:18
Speaker 4: Once you hit a trilliondall is worth a debt, what
47:20
Speaker 4: difference are you making?
47:21
Speaker 5: But I do think it's great that we look back
47:23
Speaker 5: and look at policies and see where they may not
47:25
Speaker 5: have gone right. So for instance, with the tobacco exercise,
47:28
Speaker 5: that was a gamble. We're going to put more money
47:30
Speaker 5: in it. We thought we were going to pull more
47:32
Speaker 5: money from the excess. What happened is organized crime started
47:34
Speaker 5: selling it. Then we had to spend money on trying
47:36
Speaker 5: to eradicate organized crime. So it's completely backfired. But that's
47:41
Speaker 5: exactly why we should revisit and look how policies have
47:44
Speaker 5: played out.
47:45
Speaker 2: The key mistake was jacking up the excise without actually
47:49
Speaker 2: funding states to enforce the law and stop elicit tobacco
47:54
Speaker 2: from just running rampant. Now the difference. Originally, back in
47:57
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, they were forecasting one hundred eighty five billion
48:01
Speaker 2: dollars of revenue from the excise tax. The current forecast
48:04
Speaker 2: is that's now fall into one hundred and eighteen billion,
48:07
Speaker 2: So you've lost sixty five billion dollars in projected revenue
48:10
Speaker 2: from the budget. I mean that is enormous. But look,
48:13
Speaker 2: we're going to go to a break now, and coming
48:15
Speaker 2: up after the break, we're gonna tell you about this
48:17
Speaker 2: very rare flower that only comes out every so often
48:21
Speaker 2: and it has a bit of a stench to it,
48:23
Speaker 2: But stay tune for that. Now, sadly, we have to
48:30
Speaker 2: update you on the breaking news coming out of Switzerland
48:33
Speaker 2: this evening. A fire in a bar in the ski
48:36
Speaker 2: resort of Cran's Montana in the Alps is now believed
48:40
Speaker 2: to have claimed several dozen lives. Social media footage shows
48:45
Speaker 2: flames at the Constellation Bar, where a New Year's Eve
48:48
Speaker 2: event was taking place. Police don't know how the fire started,
48:52
Speaker 2: but investigations are ongoing and explosion was heard. A spokesman
48:57
Speaker 2: has told the BBC that several dozen people are presumed dead,
49:02
Speaker 2: with several nationalities involved. A ski resort, it's obviously very
49:06
Speaker 2: popular with tourists and up to one hundred people are
49:08
Speaker 2: believed to have been pinting there at the time, but
49:11
Speaker 2: authorities are saying there is no suspicion it was an attack.
49:15
Speaker 2: There'll be more of that in Newsnight at ten pm. Well,
49:18
Speaker 2: thank you for joining us this evening. I hope you
49:20
Speaker 2: have a good evening.