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How to be an inclusive leader · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood
0:11
body for the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, editor
0:15
of Project Journal and your host.
0:18
Today's episode was recorded live at APM's Women in Project
0:21
Management conference held in London in September, which
0:24
brought together over 700 project professionals of all
0:27
career levels. Equality, diversity and
0:30
inclusion were high on the agenda and for this episode we
0:33
chose to focus on a session entitled Inclusive Leaders
0:36
Empower Inclusive Workplaces. This discussion brought together
0:40
4 project professionals to discuss what inclusivity means
0:44
to them. Being an inclusive leader, they
0:47
said, can strengthen relationships with colleagues by
0:49
creating a more supportive and collaborative workplace culture.
0:53
But is it easier said than done? And how do you bring people with
0:56
you? The panel chair was Elizabeth
0:58
Nolan, head of legal project management at SACAS, and she was
1:02
joined by three guests. Roslyn Unegu is delivery
1:05
director of non infrastructure at Thames Water.
1:08
She has LED transformational service improvement and delivery
1:11
programmes in construction for over 23 years within the public,
1:15
private and voluntary sectors. Sarah Utterson is a project
1:19
manager in the defence and engineering industry.
1:22
She began as a graduate Project manager in 2020 and has recently
1:26
transitioned into a Deputy Programme Manager role at
1:28
Babcock International Group. Ali Parrish is a childhood
1:32
project professional who is currently Deputy Director of the
1:35
Central Delivery Unit at the Ministry of Housing, Communities
1:38
and Local Government, where she leads the project delivery
1:41
function and profession. We pick up the session with the
1:44
panel discussing their top three things that make an inclusive
1:47
workplace before moving on to an audience Q&A.
1:54
Inclusive Employers, which is auk organisation offering
1:57
membership, training and consultancy for employers,
2:01
defines an inclusive workplace as the culture in which the mix
2:05
of people can come to work, feel comfortable and confident to be
2:09
themselves, and work in a way that suits them and delivers
2:12
your business or service needs. Inclusion will ensure that
2:15
everyone feels valued and importantly, adds value.
2:19
So we asked our panel to share the top three things that make
2:22
an inclusive workplace. And I'm going to ask everyone
2:25
interns to explain a little bit more about them.
2:28
So Sarah, I'm going to start with you.
2:29
These are your top three inclusive language,
2:32
psychological safety and getting to know your team and inclusive
2:35
team and building social activities.
2:37
So talk us through those what inclusive language?
2:40
What? What do you mean by that?
2:42
So when talk about inclusive language, I want to think about
2:45
what words they use firmly at work or infirmly with their
2:47
colleagues while having lunch breaks, tea breaks, whatever it
2:49
might be. And think about some of the
2:51
power that some of the words you might use are.
2:53
And if you're not sure, educate yourselves.
2:55
One thing I'm really passionate about is that I think,
2:57
especially in my generation when I grew up, words were thrown
3:00
around that are like insulting and can offend people quite
3:04
significantly depending on what words you're using.
3:06
So drawing attention to words that can affect people with
3:09
disabilities, such as using the words spastic moron, saying
3:13
things like always crippled by that joke are actually really
3:16
exclusionary because you're, you're not understanding the
3:19
full intent and exclusionary effect that has on people Also
3:23
using words that are misused. So things like crazy OCD, being
3:29
mental, those are harmful to those who suffer from mental
3:32
health issues and I want people to think about that.
3:35
Whilst you may see it as informal or you are using a more
3:39
formal setting, be aware of those people around you and the
3:41
fact that those words are really exclusionary.
3:44
And if you're not aware of maybe some of the language you are
3:46
using, think about educating yourself.
3:48
There are so many articles out there on Forbes, Harvard
3:51
Business Review around exclusionary terminology and
3:55
even things. But things like sex is where is
3:56
bossy, sassy, feisty. Think about the effect that
3:59
might have on somebody if you are using, even if it's not
4:02
intended or not directly in in someone, think about the sort of
4:06
unintended constant that might have and I want to just put in
4:09
there. Use of pronouns is also really
4:10
important. Lots of companies that will
4:12
allow you to add your pronouns to the end of your e-mail
4:14
signature use it help destigmatize these of correct
4:18
pronouns. And if you're not sure what
4:19
someone's pronouns are, ask. Educate yourself.
4:22
Make sure you are being inclusive in the language you're
4:24
using. OK, thank you.
4:25
And that probably then leads us quite nicely into the second key
4:29
key thing for you. So psychological safety and
4:31
getting to know your team, how can how does that sure isn't it
4:34
for you? I think there's a really simple
4:36
way to get to know your team and understand what people do out,
4:38
sort of work, their hobbies, you know what their favourite food
4:41
is, do they like start work early in the morning, finish
4:43
work late at night. But I think with that, there is
4:45
a much deeper level which we all need to be aware of is people
4:48
need to be able to come to you as colleagues, leaders,
4:50
managers, mentors, whatever you might be to people in your team
4:53
or your project to ask for inclusive adjustments to their
4:56
working environment. And if you're not creating that
4:58
psychologically safe environment where people do not feel safe to
5:01
come and tell you maybe that they don't feel included or
5:03
they've seen or experienced exclusive behaviour, you need to
5:06
be able to address as well. So I think I would just say 2
5:09
levels or get to know your team. We get some who you're working
5:12
with, but also make sure the environment you're working
5:14
within a psychological safe to open up conversations around
5:17
exclusion and what people may need.
5:18
OK. And so leading on then from from
5:21
that into into team, what does inclusive team building look
5:24
like? So this is something that I
5:26
think the more recent thing for me that I've actually really
5:28
guilt you off. I will suggest to my team, let's
5:30
go to the pub after work. And it only hit me recently that
5:33
not everyone drinks, not everyone wants to go to the pub
5:35
after work. I will suggest going to a brew
5:37
dog pub quiz and people might hate brew dog pub quiz.
5:39
And that even though may seem really silly, it's actually
5:41
really exclusionary behaviour because you're going to a very
5:44
specific place and very specific night of the week to do a very
5:46
specific activity. And people may not feel
5:48
comfortable saying, well, I don't drink or I don't like pub
5:51
quizzies or Tuesday doesn't work for me.
5:53
So all people think about is when you are suggesting social
5:57
activities, team building or even just suggesting something
6:00
after work or for your project team to get to know them better,
6:02
make sure that what you're suggesting is inclusive of
6:04
everybody. Like Irene mentioned in her
6:06
speech this morning, you know, golf away days, my company has a
6:10
golf away day, most people don't play golf.
6:13
So I think thinking about those kind of things and whilst maybe
6:15
they don't seem exclusive, they can be and they are excluding
6:19
groups of people to taking part. OK, wonderful.
6:21
Thank you, Joslyn. Here's your three.
6:24
Let's let's go through them. So an environmental trust, What
6:26
does that look like? Well, I first of all, it's
6:30
around the word inclusivity. It's an environment where
6:33
everyone feels comfortable about being able to speak.
6:38
And it's an environment where people feel that their thoughts
6:43
and the diversity of it is encouraged and it is appreciated
6:49
and valued. And that's really what it means
6:51
to to thrive in an inclusive workplace.
6:55
What we don't want to have is groupthink.
6:58
And when leaders, leaders should strive really to avoid having
7:03
their thoughts, their views permeate through the, the, the
7:08
teams that they lead. And so having team members be
7:13
comfortable enough to share their views, even if they're
7:16
dissenting in an environment where people think, you know, my
7:20
thoughts are valued, appreciated and understood.
7:25
And more than anything seen for me, that creates and fosters an
7:31
environment of trust. OK.
7:33
And how does that also then interplay with an
7:35
accountability? It's to do with being able to
7:39
receive and accept feedback. The wonderful thing about trust
7:45
is comfort. You are comfortable in an
7:49
environment where you feel and you know that your thoughts,
7:54
ideas are both diverse and welcomed.
7:58
And that means as leaders and as team members, you take
8:02
accountability for the things that you say.
8:05
And so the accountability element is fundamental in trying
8:10
and fostering that environment where inclusivity is welcome.
8:15
So the terminal accountability in this context means as an
8:20
individual you are responsible for the things and the words
8:23
that you use and your actions, and it is about being able to do
8:29
that without feeling a threat or feeling discomfort in being able
8:35
to do so. OK.
8:37
And it's part of that consideration of privilege.
8:40
It is, it is the, the, the whole idea of privilege is about
8:45
understanding that in a group environment, some people have
8:50
more. And as leaders, is it really
8:54
important for you to understand that the diversity of the teams
8:58
that you lead means that some people will have more in terms
9:01
of power and influence, and some people feel that they have less.
9:08
And understanding that means that as a leader, you are very,
9:12
very acutely aware that you need to ensure that those who have
9:17
more do not abuse those who have less, and those who have less do
9:23
not feel abused. And that for me, what's the that
9:28
inclusivity? OK, Ali, let's move on to yours
9:32
then. So how do you know what makes
9:34
you resilient and, well, how, how do you figure that out?
9:37
I think I've been on a really long journey with this and I
9:40
think it matters in every profession actually that we
9:43
understand what our triggers are for things that make us feel
9:47
stressed for make us feel unwell and and learn over time, which I
9:51
have. We honest.
9:52
I have been on a very long journey to know what, you know,
9:56
daily habits I need to have in place when I can feel myself
9:59
getting into a difficult position and also the support
10:03
networks that I need to have in place as well.
10:05
But it really matters in delivery because it's hard.
10:08
Delivery is hard and it doesn't matter.
10:10
There will never, a lot of people in my team will say,
10:13
actually there must be a place when you know, I'll be totally
10:16
on top of my work life balance. You'll never be on top of your
10:19
work life balance. Actually, the important thing is
10:21
to really know how you want you as an individual want to make
10:24
that work for you. And when you know that it's not
10:27
operating. Because if we're not in a great
10:28
place, it means that actually we don't feel, we don't respond to
10:32
the pressures of the delivery environment effectively.
10:34
I mean, it's the right thing to do anyway, but we don't respond
10:37
to the environment effectively. But also we're not in a place to
10:40
bring ideas, to make great decisions, to move at pace.
10:43
So being healthy and well is really critical to just, you
10:48
know, the basic functioning of a team and caring for people
10:50
around us, but also actually what makes our work successful.
10:54
OK, so it's important to to look after ourselves and then
10:57
obviously your your second point then to be kind and considerate
10:59
to others as well. Yeah, I think this is, this is 1
11:02
when it boils down to it in, you know, over the years we've
11:05
worked with a huge number of different people with different
11:08
needs and different experiences and different backgrounds.
11:11
And in the end, actually, I, I've kind of come to the
11:14
conclusion, whilst the words sound very floated, being kind
11:17
in particular in a corporate and demanding environment is really
11:20
challenging. And actually taking time to get
11:23
to know all your colleagues, not just the ones that you most
11:25
closely relate to, and understanding their individual
11:29
needs, supporting and that understanding what's going on in
11:32
their lives as far as they want to share that is, is really
11:36
important in helping everyone be able to feel included.
11:39
And picking up Sarah's point about how do you find the way to
11:42
ensure you have, you know, team things that work for everybody
11:46
rather than just kind of a certain set of preferences.
11:48
But the reverse side of that is that sometimes we all come
11:51
across it. There are a whole host of
11:52
moments where we think other people's behaviours are not kind
11:55
and considerate and disrespectful or not the
11:57
behaviours that we expect in work.
11:59
And it's very easy for that to then kind of boil a system of
12:02
like of antagonism. And actually what I found again
12:06
over time is to think, hold on, what is going on?
12:09
You have to believe in the decency of most human beings.
12:12
What is going on to them that is making them behave that way.
12:16
And although you never really know what's happening unless you
12:19
really know someone very well, there's generally a sense of
12:21
fear or frustration or kind of angst happening or something
12:25
going on in someone's personal life that is enabling them to
12:27
behave. And your response is different
12:30
if you try and put put yourself in their position even when you
12:32
think they're being unreasonable.
12:34
And is that part of being a really good manager do you think
12:36
then? I think, well, I think it
12:37
relates particularly outside it. You know, it's much harder
12:39
outside of your team environment to have that conversation.
12:42
You just have to put yourself in other shoes.
12:43
But I do think the inclusion comes down it's it's really
12:47
important to know the team. It's really important that
12:49
everybody feels like you've got each other's backs, whether as a
12:53
line manager or as a as a kind of just a team member, and that
12:58
everyone feels safe and empowered to come to work and to
13:00
be able to bring their best selves.
13:02
But, but again, the flip side of that is it also means sometimes
13:05
having difficult conversations and that, you know, we're not
13:08
always always at our best. Sometimes our behaviours,
13:11
sometimes the quality of our work isn't as great.
13:13
And actually you have to say it because otherwise and you have
13:17
to have a conversation about it because otherwise those things
13:19
fester and other people realise and recognise that we're not
13:23
necessarily treating everybody fairly as well.
13:25
So these conversations are hard, but you kind of have to strap
13:29
your shoes on and kind of get get on with it.
13:32
And just the last thing I would say in the reverse of that is
13:34
that as a leader, you know, quite often you don't get it
13:37
right. And actually fessing up to that
13:39
or taking the feedback, create an environment where people go,
13:41
do you know what? I just didn't like the way that
13:43
you did that and saying, you know, apologising, being open
13:47
about that I think is not, again, not just the right thing
13:50
to do, but buys a huge amount of credibility and and trust from
13:54
colleagues and from team members as well.
13:56
Absolutely no, I completely agree with that.
13:57
I think you, you, you've got to own it and let people know that.
14:01
So I'm, I'm conscious of time and I really want to get to the
14:03
question. So I'll I'll, I'll, I'll go
14:05
fairly quickly through, through mine.
14:07
So for me, people feeling seen and heard.
14:11
So this is just, this is about everyone.
14:13
This is not just about the people at the top feeling like
14:16
they're the ones who can set the tone.
14:18
You know, if you were at the the session, the keynote first thing
14:21
this morning from Natalie, you will have heard this as well.
14:23
You know, everyone needs to be considered when decisions are
14:26
made and feel like they have been considered, you know,
14:28
what's the impact going to be on them.
14:30
And this applies to to positive and negative things.
14:33
So you know, when the business does well, everyone benefits,
14:35
but make sure everyone benefits, not just the people at the top.
14:38
You know, when the business does badly, though, everyone bears
14:40
the bears the burden of that. Obviously those with the
14:43
broadest shoulders are going to are going to bear more of it,
14:45
but everyone needs to feel it because if it's really
14:47
inclusive, it cuts it comes to everyone.
14:50
Everyone should have a voice. Everyone should have a way of
14:52
sharing their views. You know, whether, and that will
14:54
look different in every single company depending on the size,
14:57
the, the, the sort of the workplace.
15:00
So whether that's a manager, whether that's, you know, some,
15:02
some anonymous feedback things that you can put in.
15:05
But everyone should feel that they have a route by which they
15:08
can provide some feedback, they can provide some input into,
15:11
into the workplace that they're in.
15:13
The second one for me is really, really important.
15:15
So communication, everything's, yeah, we must communicate.
15:17
We must communicate. That shouldn't just be
15:19
broadcasting. Comprehension is the goal of
15:22
communication. So it's not about you just
15:24
giving out a message. It's about how people receive
15:27
that message. So it's, it should communication
15:30
should be open, it should be regular, but you also need to
15:32
know that it's being heard and it's being understood.
15:35
And that's where you come back to the feedback loop and you
15:38
need to understand what's going on.
15:41
You know, so it's not just a news post on an intranet.
15:44
It's not just a firm wide e-mail.
15:45
It's managers checking in with their teams, it's colleagues
15:48
checking in with each other. You know, did you see this?
15:50
How do you feel about it? What do we, what do we think is
15:53
this, is this working for us? What do we think the impacts are
15:55
going to be? Because the people sending out
15:57
those communications may just simply may not have thought of
16:00
it. And it's not because they don't
16:02
care, they just don't know. It's not on their radar.
16:05
So it that that's really important.
16:07
And finally then differences being recognised and celebrated.
16:11
So, you know, having a one team ethos, it might sound like a
16:14
really inclusive idea, but actually it completely fails to
16:17
recognise that people are fundamentally different.
16:20
You know, everyone has got different wants and needs and
16:24
true inclusivity should, should recognise that and it should
16:27
embrace it to try and get the best out of everyone rather than
16:29
trying to make everyone fit into one thing.
16:32
So there you go. That's that's what that those
16:34
are our kind of high level views about what we think in terms of
16:37
what inclusive workplaces look like and how we can make them.
16:41
We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the
16:45
project profession. When you become an APM member,
16:48
you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
16:50
impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
16:54
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
16:57
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you
17:01
reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
17:05
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
17:08
So we're going to start with a really key topic.
17:13
We're going to start with Women's Health.
17:15
So we had a couple of questions that that have that have come
17:17
through on that. These these questions have been
17:19
seen in advance. So we've had a a bit of an
17:20
opportunity to think about these.
17:22
The the ones where the panellists are really going to
17:24
be on their toes are the ones that are coming through in the
17:25
room. But OK, so we're going to start
17:28
with a question in relation to, to, to, to menstruation.
17:34
OK. So 50% of the population, women,
17:36
50% of the of the population are likely to unless they're likely
17:40
to because I appreciate it's not everyone experience physical and
17:45
and emotional impacts of menstruation whilst they're in
17:48
their working lives. You can't get away from it.
17:50
It's becoming more talked about more these days.
17:53
It's wonderful that people are prepared to, to, to talk about
17:57
it. We had a question that said the
18:00
fact that it is becoming more open to discussion, does that is
18:05
that going to put on virus? If I go into into a situation
18:08
and I talk about the fact that I suffer from from a condition or
18:12
I really suffer when I get my period, is that going to put
18:14
someone off? Do I need to just keep that
18:16
quiet? Ali, I'm looking at you.
18:18
So I'm going to start with you. What what do you think?
18:20
Share your wisdom. Well, I have I I was really
18:23
grateful to the people who asked ask these questions because it
18:25
made me think that it's still not a topic that we talk about
18:28
enough in the workplace, even though it happens to an awful
18:31
lot of us. I think the first thing I would
18:34
say is that going back to my earlier point, I think it's
18:37
really important to know your own body and your own own cycle
18:41
and your own health. It's not just about
18:42
menstruation. It's not just about how we
18:44
bleed. Women's Health is a factor
18:46
throughout the entirety of our careers and it affects us all at
18:49
different, different times. So you can kind of progress on
18:52
to whether you have having a period, whether you want to be
18:55
having a period, have you not having one because you're trying
18:56
to have a baby, whereas your period stopped.
18:58
Are you on the process of them stopping?
19:00
You know, it goes on for a really long time before you get
19:04
into all the other kind of health challenges that that
19:07
women face. So actually really understanding
19:09
your body and knowing how to manage it yourself and what that
19:14
means in terms of your workplace I think is important.
19:16
And then being able to have just really sensible, honest
19:18
conversations about it. Those can be private, but they
19:21
can also be public as well. And I think the thing that I
19:26
have observed as I have become more ancient in times, I never
19:31
thought it mattered to talk about it and I certainly didn't
19:33
want to. But when I've been in positions
19:35
where not so much to do with periods but to do with
19:38
breastfeeding and trying to express in a highly male
19:41
dominated workplace and having miscarriages, I had no choice
19:45
apart from to talk about it. And what I found that was
19:48
amazing about it, two things. First of all, it gave everyone
19:52
else permission to talk about it, which was brilliant.
19:55
And secondly, the other 50% of the population also all know
20:00
women who were all going through the same thing too.
20:01
So they completely understand as well and actually were
20:05
unbelievably supportive and helpful.
20:07
And I think it gave me for the first time the conversation
20:11
actually, this is just something that we should just keep an open
20:14
dialogue about. Not everybody feels brave, but
20:17
if you do feel brave enough to do it, it creates a better space
20:20
for others and actually changes come off the back of it.
20:22
And some amazing people in my. Apartment through their lived
20:25
experience, both men and women through their own lived
20:27
experiences have changed policies about menstruation,
20:30
about menopause and about baby loss in the last kind of 18
20:34
months. But they kind of had to put
20:35
themselves out there, but then we all followed and backed them
20:38
up as well. And and I think that was really
20:39
positive. So it's a bit of a tangent from
20:41
your question, but it's because it.
20:43
It. Kind of just.
20:44
Appreciate that. Absolutely no.
20:45
And I think that and that, and that helps because it, it covers
20:48
off a, a couple of other things, I think.
20:50
Ross, I wonder if I can ask you then in relation to one of the
20:53
other questions that we received.
20:54
So for those people who, who, who do want to be a bit more
20:58
private about it, but still need to talk to their, their, their,
21:01
their managers, you know, what, as a, as a manager, what should
21:04
the manager be doing in those circumstances?
21:06
Because they don't necessarily want to then, you know, change a
21:10
policy because it's of of one that.
21:12
But how, how can you as a manager support someone?
21:15
You know, what sort of thing should you be doing if someone
21:18
comes to you and says, I'm having these issues?
21:20
A lot of us work in environments where you find that your
21:24
managers are men. So when you when you're when
21:28
you're going through something particularly sensitive, whether
21:30
it is to do with baby loss or it is something to do with periods
21:35
or you're having, for those of you who are either
21:37
perimenopausal or menopausal, you have brain fog and something
21:40
happens and you're and you're in a very difficult situation.
21:42
What you would like to happen is for your manager to have
21:46
empathy, doesn't have to be going through the same thing,
21:50
but you would expect an understanding and good leaders,
21:54
and I emphasise good leadership, good leaders care and they pay
21:59
attention. And the question should really
22:01
be how can I help? That should be the fundamental
22:03
question that you asked. It's how can I help?
22:06
I don't understand what you're going through for obvious
22:08
reasons, but how can I help not? Well, that's unfortunate.
22:13
When you're going back to work, you know, that's not really the
22:15
answer you want to want to get. And, and so you would expect
22:19
that there is a, a significant level of sensitivity to wanting
22:23
privacy because look, if I were a bloke and I had a prostate
22:27
exam happening next day, I don't want everyone to know about it.
22:30
So I wouldn't expect you to advertise that either.
22:33
So just being able to have empathy, putting yourself in the
22:36
other's shoes and knowing this is a particularly delicate
22:40
situation and the best way to handle it is with empathy and
22:46
sympathy. Thank you.
22:48
I think that's, that's, that's a really example of your answer.
22:50
So I'm OK. Well, look, I'm going to move on
22:53
now to we've, we've had a series of, of questions and we've had
22:56
some come through on the app on this as well.
22:58
So an, a topic I'm going to call female stereotyping.
23:02
You know, you walk into a room and someone asks you to, to get
23:04
them a coffee, you sit down and, and the expectation is if you're
23:07
the only woman in the room that you're going to be taking the
23:09
notes, that sort of thing. So we've had a few questions
23:13
around it and I think so constantly.
23:18
Someone said they're they're in a meeting and the the meeting is
23:22
opened with morning gents. You know, what should you make
23:27
it an issue? What you know, how do you feel
23:29
about that? If you do want to raise it, how
23:30
do you do it? What do you think, Sarah?
23:32
So I think this has been nicely what I told about language in
23:35
the in the first bit. If it something that bothers you
23:38
and you, it makes you feel uncomfortable, I never think
23:41
raise it. I have beyond receiving end of
23:44
lots of high dense emails, lots of high dense meetings.
23:47
And I think the way to tackle it is to is to raise it.
23:51
And I think there's two ways to do that.
23:52
There's the address it there and then you dress it in the room
23:55
just in the e-mail. You see it when it happens or if
24:00
it's I see a repeat of defence. If you've not raised it the
24:04
first time, it keeps happening and you become more
24:06
uncomfortable because you've not raised it the first time and
24:08
it's happened again. Think about it.
24:10
Think about what you want to do. Think about maybe a plan.
24:12
Speak to people. I think we've spoken already a
24:14
lot this morning around allyship.
24:16
Speak someone you trust and say, oh, I'm thinking about
24:18
uncomfortable about this. Keep in these emails and say hi
24:20
gents, It's all men on the e-mail and then me makes you
24:24
feel uncomfortable and and speak to people because I guarantee
24:27
that someone else will have either been in the receiving end
24:29
of something similar or a similar e-mail chain from
24:32
somebody else, if not a meeting. So you're comfortable raise it
24:35
yourself, but if not, use allies, these people you trust.
24:39
And I would obviously don't be afraid to raise it, escalate it
24:42
because these things are important.
24:43
And I think we're part of an inclusive workplace is if things
24:46
are important to you and you feel uncomfortable with things
24:48
that are being said or done, you should feel psychologically safe
24:51
enough to raise it. And if you don't, that's where
24:53
you need to go and talk to people like HR or escalate it to
24:55
your managers. Excellent.
24:57
Thank you. Well, this and we've had A and
24:59
the top voted question that we've had coming on the app, I
25:03
think really fits well within within this sort of thing as
25:05
well. So have you ever called anyone
25:08
out for exclusionary behaviours? And if so, how did it go and
25:12
what did you learn? Annie, I'll start with you.
25:15
Yeah, I. Felt like that was going to be
25:18
the answer. Again, I didn't used to because
25:21
I didn't either I didn't notice or I didn't know that it was
25:25
required. And I think picking U on Sarah's
25:28
point, I will quite often if I think something is is not really
25:33
right, I will. I would generally do it, have a
25:35
quiet word with the relationships that I have, but I
25:39
also try and make sure that across A-Team, people always
25:42
think that they can come and say when there is a problem, which
25:45
relates to all of our management, doesn't it?
25:47
And, and you know, across everything that, that you should
25:51
always be, always feel like there is someone you can go to
25:54
who will be your ally and a sounding board, regardless of
25:56
whether they're in your management chain.
25:58
And quite often I do find people going, I'm just struggling with
26:01
this. And, and sometimes it is about
26:03
having a safe place to be able to have a conversation about why
26:06
certain behaviours and certain activities are making people
26:09
feel uncomfortable, that gives them more confidence in the
26:11
environment. But also sometimes it's also
26:13
saying, do you want me to have a word?
26:15
And being the one to do that with a different set of
26:18
relationships than as well said earlier, a different set of
26:20
power as well. And, and generally that goes
26:23
quite well. I mean, every so often I get
26:25
told I'm a bit countercultural or a bit chippy, but I kind of
26:28
would rather be countercultural and chippy and, and like back
26:32
people to feel safe and comfortable at work.
26:34
And, and, and, and I think as I get more wrinkly and older,
26:38
which I've now mentioned twice to you all.
26:39
So clearly I've got an issue with this.
26:41
I kind of I'm realising how much responsibility we have to to
26:45
back everybody in to make sure that they feel safe and to give
26:48
a voice when they don't necessarily feel that they've
26:49
got one themselves. Absolutely no.
26:51
I, I, I, I, I'd certainly echo that.
26:53
First of all, I see no wrinkles, but let me just be clear about
26:56
that. But yeah, I, I, I work in law.
27:01
We have a lot of junior associates, you know, and there
27:03
will be some people who, who, who will they, they won't want
27:06
to put their hand up. I know I didn't when I was a
27:08
junior lawyer. I never wanted to put my hand
27:09
up. But I was very fortunate that I
27:10
had people around me that would speak up on my behalf and would
27:14
usually come and ask me first and say, I thought, I've spotted
27:17
this. Do you want me to do something
27:19
about it? But that was amazing for me
27:20
because it, it meant for me that I have.
27:23
Then as I've gone through my career, I've started doing that
27:26
for other people. I've started spotting things and
27:28
going, he looked a little bit uncomfortable in that situation.
27:30
Do you want to tell me about why that was?
27:32
And is there something I can do about it?
27:34
Because they won't always want you to.
27:36
But if they do want you to, as you say you can, you've like
27:39
more likely to have those relationships.
27:40
You can do something about it. And, but even even in a senior
27:43
position, you know, there's always someone else up there,
27:46
you know, what do you do about that?
27:48
Because have you got an example for?
27:49
Us. Oh gosh, I've got many.
27:51
Pick one. I'll, I'll, I'll pick one.
27:54
It's, it's an interesting one because I have found this
27:59
example is about introversion actually.
28:02
And it's a, it's a, it's a pet pet peeve of mine.
28:04
There was a perception that people are introverted, are
28:07
either quite quiet because they're incompetent, or they're
28:10
quiet because they are, they lack skill.
28:13
And so I have found listening to people over the years that
28:17
people tend to use this, this language or be dismissive of
28:20
them in meetings. And I, I make a special point
28:24
because I know that that a lot of introverts are quiet because
28:27
they're busy analysing and playing back what they've, what
28:29
they've heard. And so knowing that I always say
28:33
hi, Do you have, I know you've probably been thinking about
28:35
this. Any thoughts and about but put
28:38
it in a way that gives them the comfort to be able to speak up
28:42
and air their views. And, and usually, and I'm no,
28:46
no, no wallflower. I will go back and say to
28:49
someone who's actually been on feasibly crass about the
28:53
comments and say you may want to think about these types of
29:00
courses because I think being able to understand the
29:04
environment you're working and being able to pay attention is
29:06
really important. And if you want to be a leader,
29:09
I'll leave it hanging. I.
29:12
Like that silence, silence is a very, very powerful tool.
29:16
Not just the no comment answers the the actual silence as well.
29:20
OK, I think so looking then at yeah, again, being a lot of us
29:25
work and particularly in in project management because it
29:28
tends to to a lot of the the roles are in in still very male
29:32
dominated environment. So how there's a question we've
29:36
got. How do you navigate different
29:37
team cultures as part of different projects that are
29:41
still very male culture dominated to ensure your
29:44
projects are inclusive? So what are your thoughts on, on
29:48
that? How do you, how do you where
29:50
you're where there's still, as you were saying, you know,
29:52
you've got examples where you're the only female in, in the role.
29:54
You know, how do you navigate that to make sure that you're
29:58
not just becoming one of the boys?
30:00
Yeah, that's super difficult because I think that is
30:02
something I'm guilty of. So where I work we have 17
30:07
delivery teams, 400 engineers, majority which are men, our
30:11
whole X Co, our men, all the group managers are men.
30:15
So these day I'm in meetings with just men and I, I am very
30:19
guilty of going on lines of Chatmouth sport time of golf,
30:23
rugby, anything I can think of going to what I did at the pub
30:25
at the weekend to try and relate to them.
30:27
And I think when you're going to these different teams and you're
30:31
trying to build relationships is, is don't force it.
30:33
I think we spoke about imposter syndrome this morning and I
30:36
think don't force it. If that is not a genuine hobby
30:40
for you and that's when you genuinely do at the weekend,
30:42
don't try to fill the gap. I think one thing we if we were
30:46
really guilty of is filling the silence.
30:49
And I think the ones with that you can then sort of mould into
30:52
that more masculine, I guess themes, but don't fill the gap.
30:58
You don't feel like you have to go and talk about your weekend
30:59
if you don't want to. Don't think you have to go in
31:01
and you know, know the latest football knowledge or whatever
31:03
it might be just because they're all men.
31:06
Go in and feel comfortable that you can just be there.
31:09
Don't think you have to keep speaking.
31:10
Don't think you have to ask everyone a question.
31:12
Just own your space. You're in the room for a reason.
31:15
Whatever you may be there for, you may be a different project,
31:18
different teams. Own it.
31:20
You should be there. Don't try and train yourself
31:23
just because of the audience you're speaking to.
31:25
Their stakeholder management obviously, which is a massive
31:27
thing and obviously that's when you struggle with.
31:29
That can be explored through obviously qualifications and
31:31
experience and training, but that doesn't have to be changing
31:34
yourself absolutely for the project team or environment that
31:37
you're. Working in I think own your
31:38
place is is is is is fantastic. Now that's that's that's
31:41
definitely something and I think you bring a different skill set
31:44
as well. You you know, if you if you are,
31:47
you know, in the the the sole female in a in a room.
31:50
But I think whatever, whatever you're, you're, you're bringing,
31:54
as you say, you just, you just need to, to be confident in
31:56
that. Ali, in terms of then within
31:59
the, the teams, how if you're, if you're seeing some, you know,
32:02
a, a, a bit of a disconnect there or, or, or something, how,
32:04
how do you manage it? How do you try and make sure
32:08
that those teams that there is a bit more balance across the
32:11
team? How can you make that work?
32:13
That's a really interesting question.
32:15
I think it, I mean, it charms with both Sarah and and Ross's
32:19
points. I think there's quite as a team
32:21
leader, I think there's something really important about
32:23
helping people identify what their kind of core purpose and
32:28
mission is within each team and to feel comfortable with that
32:31
and to particularly notice when people are stepping outside,
32:34
what is a natural comfort zone for who they are.
32:37
Because as you were saying, Sarah, actually acting, owning,
32:41
owning you and acting with integrity is really critical for
32:45
building credibility as well as just being the right thing for
32:48
yourself. So I think support identifying
32:50
when people are sort of stepping outline because they think they
32:54
might need to fit in more and and enabling them to feel
32:57
supporting them to feel more confident in their own space, I
32:59
think is important. But I also think there are, as
33:04
Roz was saying, there are also, there is also a responsibility,
33:07
say if you aren't chairing a meeting or you are leading a
33:10
team to shake it up so that the common and established
33:13
behaviours are not the ones that necessarily dominate a
33:17
conversation. So putting people into different
33:20
ways of operating and changing the dynamic of how you do a
33:23
workshop or how you do a meeting structure.
33:26
So that what is, you know, tends to be the case of, you know,
33:29
this is how we get things done to put my alpha, you know,
33:32
behaviours on. We'll do it in a different way
33:34
and we'll spend 5 minutes thinking and writing stuff down
33:37
so that you just change the dynamic of what the expected
33:40
norm is as well. And again, that's the right
33:42
thing to do for inclusivity, but it's also makes you think
33:46
differently in terms of projects, gets away from that
33:49
massive risk of groupthink and kind of, you know, collective
33:52
sense of we're all doing the right thing.
33:54
You have to break the cycle. And that's another way that, you
33:57
know, I, I was trying to really think hard about my old
34:00
colleagues in the university and how they would respond to some
34:04
of these conversations. They all would say they're super
34:07
supportive inclusion. But if you said we're going to
34:09
change the way we do things because it's more inclusive,
34:11
they would roll their eyes a little bit behind the scenes.
34:14
But if you do it because it's a way of making sure that we are
34:17
managing our stakeholders and delivering our work better,
34:20
absolutely they'll be behind it and really engaged in the
34:22
process. So there's ways of playing it
34:25
too. Can I just just just just just
34:27
just one, one thing, one of the challenges that that we find as
34:31
you go through and just just looking at the audience here,
34:33
that some of you are slight slightly younger and us.
34:37
And, and so as you climb in your career, perhaps you're just
34:39
starting and, and, and you're, you're finding it challenging to
34:42
be able to raise your voice when you are perhaps the only female
34:46
in the room. And then someone says a quest,
34:49
something, something obviously different, like, you know,
34:53
making an assumption that you're the one who's actually going to
34:55
either going to do the admin, make the tea.
34:57
My, my, my advice to, to in that situation is, is really to own
35:03
your voice. And even if you are the youngest
35:07
person in the room, you do have the strength of will to own your
35:11
voice. It's 2024, though.
35:15
I am hoping that people, either from what you've heard today or
35:19
as you progress in your careers, that you actually have the the
35:22
strength to say, this is not my job.
35:24
Actually, if you'd like some tea, that's the kitchen over
35:28
there. You can help yourself in a very
35:29
polite way, but make the point. Thank you.
35:33
We're in the fortunate position where we're, we're, we're on
35:36
board with this, right? This is what we're, we're trying
35:38
to do. We're, we work hopefully within,
35:40
within companies that are, are encouraging us and empowering us
35:43
to do this. One of the questions that we've
35:45
had come in, which I think is a really interesting 1 is how do
35:48
you deal with a company that promotes inclusivity and
35:51
diversity doesn't necessarily demonstrate.
35:53
It. So yeah, what do we do in those
35:58
circumstances? You're laughing.
36:00
So I'm going to start with, I feel that you might have some
36:05
some gems for us here. What do you do?
36:08
Well what you don't do first of all is, is be antagonistic and
36:12
militant about it because that is going to change anyones
36:15
views. I think you start by by
36:18
educating people. If if someone says something to
36:21
you that is very clearly unsuitable, or if people do a
36:26
lot of group think and you find that in teams that the leaders
36:29
views is the dominating 1, then what I would suggest you do in
36:34
that instance is gradually begin the unfortunately difficult task
36:40
of having to breakdown those those barriers.
36:43
And you start that by being an educator in the in the most
36:48
collaborative way possible. You provide your case.
36:53
This is why what you have said is unsuitable in this context.
36:57
And here's the implication of your actions.
36:59
And sometimes the reality is businesses never learn anything
37:03
unless it's hitting the bottom line.
37:05
So when you find that, you know, for, for in some companies, and
37:10
it happened in one of mine, my previous ones that is women were
37:14
leaving and they were leaving in droves.
37:18
And so the question was, oh, they look, they're all leaving,
37:20
cry some more. And I'm thinking, well, that is
37:22
not a fixed problem. You have to think about why are
37:24
they leaving? Think about root causes.
37:26
And that is what good leadership is understanding root causes,
37:30
because that is how you change things.
37:32
And that is really what transformation means.
37:35
Absolutely, Ali, do you want to add anything?
37:38
Yeah, well, I completely agree with that as well.
37:40
But what it was also making me think is that going back to the
37:44
only points, that inclusion is all of our responsibilities as
37:47
well. And actually there is something
37:49
about taking on our own. If you can have a beautiful DNI
37:53
strategy, but it doesn't feel like it feels like words, well,
37:57
let's make it a reality. So on a really humble and
38:01
day-to-day basis, let's ask people about their Eid
38:04
experiences about Purim, as well as what their plans are for
38:07
Christmas. You know, that makes a
38:09
difference. If there's been big things in
38:11
the news that affect, you know, particular sections of our
38:14
communities, well, let's ask how they're actually feeling.
38:17
What happens when you've got family in Gaza?
38:19
What happens when when riots about Black Lives matters really
38:23
effects really kind of triggers kind of long, long standing
38:27
challenges in people's life? What happens when your
38:29
communities are the ones being vilified in local you can ask to
38:33
that regardless of what leaders are talking about in in society.
38:37
You can also join a staff network.
38:39
If there isn't one set one up. And I think there there is quite
38:44
a lot of response. There is quite a lot you can do
38:47
that also creates a movement within an organisation.
38:50
And often things do happen from top down and you, we all have
38:53
stories you can see of like the most fantastic visionary
38:57
leaders, but there aren't that many extraordinary fantastic
39:01
visionary inclusive leaders. Actually what makes an inclusive
39:04
organisation is also the daily actions that we take as well.
39:08
And so I think that there is, I completely agree.
39:11
I don't want anyone to take away that.
39:12
I don't think this is a leadership responsibility.
39:14
I absolutely do. But an environment where it's
39:17
just words, I think we can all take take actions as well that
39:22
that change, the change that environment, change that kind of
39:26
sense of psychological safety that people feel just on our own
39:28
shoulders. Absolutely, Yeah, I, I, I
39:30
completely agree with that. And I think that was, it was, it
39:32
was a point I was going to make is that it's, yeah, if, if we
39:36
don't like something, we, I think it's incumbent on us to
39:40
say, OK, well, what, what, what am I going to do about it?
39:43
You know, I, I can sit there and I can complain about the, the,
39:46
the culture of the organisation and how, how terrible it is, but
39:49
am I trying to take any steps myself to, to influence change
39:53
in that or to do something about it?
39:55
And I can do that regardless of, of, of, of my stature within the
39:59
organisation, of my experience of, of, of my role.
40:02
I need to get allies. I need to get influences.
40:05
I need to, but I can do something about it.
40:07
If I get to the point where do you know what, despite all of my
40:10
best efforts and those of, of, of, of the people around me, I
40:13
simply can't, Well, then maybe this isn't the organisation for
40:15
me. But I think it's incumbent on
40:17
all of us to, to, as we've said, own our place, own our voice,
40:22
see what we can do about it. You know, be the change you want
40:24
to see. It's we, we can do something.
40:28
And that's, again, it's showing, it's developing those leadership
40:31
qualities. It's showing that we shouldn't
40:32
just rely on our dark overlords to make sure that they're doing
40:36
what they're supposed to be doing.
40:38
OK, I think again, there's just, there's a, there's another
40:41
question. It's had an awful lot of, of
40:43
votes. So I'm going to ask this one as
40:45
well. And I think it's, it's, it's in
40:47
a similar sort of vein for, for this.
40:48
So it's, you know, as, as a parent, so you're offered a lot
40:52
more flexibility. That's brilliant.
40:55
But it only seems to go so far. You know, there's what happens
40:59
if you know, you can, you can get flexibility as a, as a
41:03
parent. But if in your circumstances,
41:06
you don't have childcare, you can give me all the flexibility
41:09
you want, but I can't necessarily use it.
41:12
How do, how do we address something like that?
41:15
That's again, Ali, I'm, I'm just, you're in my line of
41:17
sight. I'm going to come to you first.
41:23
Jump in. And then I'll follow up.
41:24
Well, you're. Going to stop positions, but
41:28
this is particularly important for me because I have a four
41:31
year old so it's it's a difficult one and that and that
41:36
is the reality. What do we do or what, what, how
41:39
do we do it? The, the, it's a tricky 1
41:43
because there is no clear answer.
41:45
I think what, what, what I would suggest is again, raising it as
41:50
a conversation, what can you as an individual do in return?
41:56
And I think that's, that's what drives the extent of
41:58
flexibility. It isn't, yes, we would like
42:01
more, but I think it's more if I can work from home because I
42:04
don't have childcare and deliver what I need to, then are you
42:07
happy with that? But it's it's to think about
42:09
out-of-the-box solutions to a very thorny problem.
42:14
And that really is the best way to do it because there is no
42:16
clear answer. You're going to have to be
42:18
innovative in this context. Sarah, I'm going to, I'm going
42:22
to ask you because I want to know as a, as, as a colleague,
42:25
if you, you know, how do you feel?
42:28
Because you were, you were talking earlier on about, you
42:29
know, psychological safety, understanding your, your, your
42:32
team and things. If you know that a colleague is,
42:34
is struggling with those sort of issues, What, what can, what do
42:38
you think you can do to, to support, you know, do you feel
42:40
it's incumbent on you to, to try and support around that or do
42:43
you do you, is it more of a that feels like a you problem?
42:47
Yeah, I think it depends on what you're relating to it with is
42:50
with the person who is struggling, how well you know
42:53
them well, how much you know about the situation and whether
42:58
or not you want to be an ally. I think I guess is one of the
43:02
things to ask. I mean, it can be things that
43:04
are really simple is when they are working from home, if
43:07
that's, you know, when the rest of you are in the office sending
43:10
them a team's message, giving them a call and seeing
43:12
everything that are getting. I think with sort of hybrid
43:14
working, we can also create exclusionary behaviours whereby
43:17
you're all in the office, you all don't go and go to a meeting
43:20
in a room and you don't dial them in or vice versa.
43:24
You all been dialling on teams and somebody sat in the office
43:26
on their own because of childcare or caring
43:29
responsibilities in general. And that makes every people
43:31
depending on locations and where they are.
43:33
I think we all managers first of all, have a responsibility to
43:36
check up on that person's welfare, well-being, mental
43:38
health and making sure they're getting support from our
43:40
employee management perspective. I think his colleagues who've
43:45
got responsibility as well to check in on the person.
43:47
Just say there's anything we can do.
43:48
You know, how are you getting on how you feeling?
43:50
You know, if you're going to come into this day or Thursday,
43:53
I'll come in and see you in the office on Thursday.
43:54
And you know, being flexible around your own, if you can be
43:58
flexible around your, you know, I've not got kind of
44:00
responsibility and I've not got children being flexible.
44:03
So you can see that person and so that they're not the only
44:05
person that comes into office on Thursday.
44:07
You can go in and be with them just to make them feel like they
44:09
are being seen and hired, even though really need a bit more
44:12
flexibility. So I think this is a really
44:15
interesting one. I was really inspired.
44:16
Now I was just trying to wrap my brains for the name of the
44:18
author. There was a woman who used to
44:20
work for Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State, so
44:24
before she ran for president, and I think she was called Anne
44:26
Marie Slaughter. And she wrote an article that
44:28
was really controversial when Sheryl Sandberg was writing all
44:32
stuff about women need to lean in.
44:33
And she wrote an article that said why women can't have it
44:36
all. And it was really controversial
44:38
because but she was like flipping head of policy, but for
44:41
Hillary Clinton. So she was not in AI think, but
44:44
she was like, my kids are teenagers.
44:46
And actually I've decided I no longer to stay commuting to
44:49
Washington. I'm going to go back to be a
44:51
very high profile Dean in in in at Harvard.
44:54
I think you'll have to check the details.
44:56
I'm sorry I didn't practise that bit of the conversation.
44:59
But I found that really interesting actually because as
45:02
I have both come back to work myself as a mum, as I've been a
45:06
step mum as well and supported lots of other people in their
45:10
return. So well by going off to work,
45:13
going off from Matt leave and then coming back from Matt
45:15
leave. What you realise is that no
45:17
family is the same. So everybody's needs a different
45:19
every like, well, these people are doing it like this, so I
45:21
should be able to do it like this.
45:22
It's like no no no, because that's their family and also
45:25
their individual choices about how they want to live their life
45:29
and I will. Whilst not accepting.
45:31
I completely agree with this morning about imposter syndrome.
45:36
I moved to the civil service because I decided in the end
45:39
that I still had ambitions to be in senior roles but could not
45:42
physically myself, both in my health and also the fact that I
45:46
have an itinerant musician as a husband who's never around.
45:50
I could not manage a really demanding job and a little one
45:53
and be nice and, and like happy with the people that I love.
45:57
But the civil service offers, really, really promotes job
46:01
shares, flexible, working right up to the very top levels of
46:04
government. And I thought, do you know what?
46:06
I think that's what I need during this time when Ives is at
46:09
home and she's growing up because the needs of your
46:11
children change all the time. But now I'm there, I look at
46:14
like really senior women in the civil service, which is amazing,
46:17
who have three children and work, you know, like in these
46:19
top jobs, I'm like, Oh, I'm so inferior.
46:22
But they are making individual choices about how they want to
46:25
structure their family lives and what their husbands do or what
46:28
their, you know, as single mums, what like their caring
46:31
arrangements are and how their family backup is and how many
46:33
times they, you know, how much of their salary they're prepared
46:36
to put into childcare or can put into, you know, everyone makes
46:39
their own choices and you just can't compare and contrast.
46:42
You can only do what works for you and your your things and you
46:45
know, your career ambitions, you know what stimulates you, what
46:47
makes you happy. You know, how you want to look
46:50
after and bring up your family. And I think again, you kind of
46:52
have to dig deep, but just don't try and model anybody else
46:55
because find your own path. No, I think that's absolutely
46:58
right. And I think you have to, yeah,
47:00
look around, see see how others are doing it.
47:03
But then exactly that find your own way for, you know, work out
47:06
what works for you. And seeing I had literally a
47:08
conversation last week with an associate who's just come back
47:11
to work for maternity leave, who's who's, as she's
47:15
transitioning back, she's in the office two days a week and she's
47:17
sitting at her desk watching people leave at sort of four,
47:20
half, four to go and pick up their kids and go, Oh God,
47:22
should I be doing that? Should I be doing that so that I
47:24
can go? But then I haven't finished what
47:25
I'm doing, but then what happens?
47:26
Oh, and I just had to be say to her, just just breathe.
47:30
And what one day a week, then you work later and yes, you miss
47:34
bedtime, but you know what? You get back and you're there
47:35
for your husband and you spend the time with him and you're not
47:38
getting back 10 minutes before with your hair on fire,
47:40
disrupting everything he's put in place, feeling guilty for
47:43
this, guilty for that. Like you, she's like, I can do
47:45
that yes, we can do that. They discuss it, agree it, but
47:49
absolutely you figure out what works for you and and I think
47:53
that's that's absolutely right There's.
47:54
Just one thing I was going to add as well, which I think is
47:56
also, it's very easy when you when when children are little to
47:59
think that it lasts forever. It really doesn't.
48:01
The phases move really quickly, but also the needs change too.
48:05
So you get a different intensity.
48:06
And actually teenagers and students almost need more
48:09
support. It's more emotional support,
48:11
more brain power than the physical demanding things of
48:14
little kids. And that's really important to
48:16
think through in the arc of of how you work as well.
48:19
Absolutely right. I am conscious.
48:20
We've only, we've not got too long left.
48:22
So we are going to push through the the final kind of topic area
48:27
that I wanted to to, to cover was inclusion of difference and
48:32
anxiety because we've had a few questions coming up about
48:35
anxiety. So if you've experienced social
48:38
anxiety at work now, how do you know how to combat it so that it
48:42
doesn't work, it doesn't impact on your or your work and your
48:45
and your progression. And I know that you were you
48:47
were keen to address this one. Yeah, so I think first of all,
48:50
what I want to say is anxiety is completely normal.
48:52
Social anxiety is completely normal.
48:54
And I think if it's something you said from at work, you're
48:55
definitely not alone. For those who don't know, know
48:59
particularly well, I really hate networking.
49:00
I find the anxiety going to networking events absolutely
49:03
horrendous. I hate most people I don't know,
49:04
speaking to them about things that my work, my life, what I
49:08
do, I find it really uncomfortable.
49:10
So I don't just think that people don't suffer for a
49:14
minute, it's just you because that's not the case.
49:15
And I think the more you speak to people, you realise that
49:17
everyone's also from some form of anxiety in work or outside of
49:19
work. I think the way to combat it is
49:21
being open about it because I think one thing anxiety is
49:25
really, really good at, and I serve from anxiety quite bad the
49:27
outside of work as well is if you don't talk about it, people
49:30
don't know for that as we all can't help you.
49:33
And also anxiety is self deprecating because you keep
49:36
telling yourself and it keeps going down during a circle.
49:38
And the minute you put that out there into the ether or the
49:41
matrix and you say I hate networking and I really don't
49:44
like it because of the anxiety I get from it.
49:46
Everyone goes on me too or you're like, oh that's really
49:50
mad. I was at a networking event last
49:51
night and it actually went OK. And you start to normalise what
49:55
that thought is in your head. And I think combating it at work
49:58
is speaking to mentors, coaches, managers, colleagues around
50:03
situations you find that it makes you anxious or triggers
50:06
you. That could be public speaking.
50:07
It could be talking to a really particular group of people, or
50:10
it could be things like networking or or more general
50:12
anxiety. If you don't feel comfortable
50:14
speaking to your manager, be a colleague, trusted ally, or
50:19
alternatively, find a coach, find a mentor.
50:20
I mean, you can talk to to work overcome and work through that
50:24
as an issue. The one thing I found it really
50:27
has a really practical type is writing it down.
50:29
And anxiety again is really good at like taking over your
50:33
negative thoughts, Writing down why you feel anxious about
50:36
talking at work, getting on the tube, whatever it might be,
50:40
writing it down and trying to think, why do I feel anxious
50:43
around it? Why am I anxious?
50:45
Why am I not anxious? The fours and against and help
50:47
rationalise it and be open people at work.
50:49
Because the chances are you'll say to me on your team and be
50:51
anxious about this and they'll go, well, God, me too.
50:54
And then you can go to networking events together.
50:56
So if you don't tell people, they can't help you and they
50:58
can't help you make inclusive adjustments at work.
51:01
So be open if you can find people you trust, and if there's
51:04
people at work you don't trust and you suffer from anxiety,
51:07
there's some people in this room who I'm sure will have suffered
51:10
from something similar. Reach out to your wider network.
51:13
Don't interrupt people you work with to help you through any
51:15
issues you've got. Absolutely, absolutely.
51:17
But I think you're understanding what your triggers are, working
51:20
that out and then being able to yeah, to, to sort of identify
51:23
them and, and work out ways to, to deal with them.
51:26
I'm going to finish with just with one final question because
51:28
I want to finish on, on a, on a positive note.
51:30
But there's been so much good stuff here.
51:32
So we talked earlier on about sort of sort of social
51:35
activities and team building and things.
51:36
And again, we've heard all about the golf course and what have
51:38
you. What's give us, give a, give me
51:41
one example of a team activity that is not drinking golf or
51:46
what have you. What's an inclusive team
51:47
activity will will go down the line.
51:49
So for, for, for, for us recently at my firm, we had a we
51:52
had a firm summer party. We did a treasure hunt through
51:55
London to get to, to the venue. Everyone got split into teams.
51:58
Literally just by you walk into the room, you're given a number,
52:00
you get a team, you've got the instructions, you go on the
52:03
treasure hunt, you get to the venue.
52:05
It was, it was very good fun. So that was that was our one
52:09
Sarah an an inclusive activity that isn't drink or golf.
52:14
So I think there's no lots of fun workplace activities that
52:18
are now like out on the High Street.
52:19
I want to say that makes sound really old and but things like
52:22
things called like flight club, there's lots of like games,
52:24
There's lots of places like Lane seven, I think it's called.
52:28
It has a range of things like bowling, shuffleboard, all those
52:31
sort of things. And you can go and pick whatever
52:32
works for you. Of course, games, some people,
52:36
especially those who are very uncomfortable with small talk,
52:40
just put everyone in the in the game room.
52:42
Those who like loud, vicious games have at it.
52:45
Those who like quieter games have at it.
52:47
Everyone was in just bliss all around it.
52:50
And that's completely, no completely out-of-the-box and
52:54
people, everyone enjoyed it. Brilliant.
52:56
OK, Harry, finish this off. I hate games and quizzes and I'm
53:02
obviously really bad at the fun super work.
53:04
I always have to nominate other people because my fun thing is
53:06
going to work. However, what I think actually
53:10
is really good is, is picking different things all the time.
53:12
So like, we've definitely done treasure hunts, we've definitely
53:14
done games, we've been to art galleries and forced people to
53:17
walk around and look at the art whilst having a conversation.
53:19
We've also done things like sporting activities as well,
53:21
making sure that those who physically are not able are
53:24
still able to do it. So if all the time you're
53:26
thinking of different ways that different people will feel
53:28
comfortable and different people will stretch themselves, that's
53:30
the good thing. But don't ask me to plan
53:32
anything fun. Fair enough, fair enough.
53:39
Thanks for listening to this episode of the APM Podcast.
53:42
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53:45
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