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Garret Dillahunt - Unsung Cinema · Movie Meltdown

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm W. Earl Brown.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: You know, that guy from that thing.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Him, that's me. You're listening to Movie Meltdown.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: What's up and welcome to Movie Meltdown's Unsung Cinema. I'm Brian,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: and in this series, I welcome a guest to discuss
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: their involvement in film, And then we round out the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: episode talking about a movie that they enjoy, but maybe
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: it doesn't get the respect that it deserves. And in
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: this episode, I'm talking with Garrett Dillahunt, an actor who
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'm willing to bet you've seen in a lot of
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: different projects over the years. You may know him from TV,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: on series as diverse as Deadwood, to Raising Hope. And
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: by the way, we'll mostly be discussing movies on this episode,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: but I do have to say, his portrayal of Bert
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: on Raising Hope is nothing short of brilliant. If you
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: didn't catch it when it was originally on, definitely go
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: check it out. But as I said, we'll be focusing
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: more on Garrett's film career here, and over the years
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: he's worked with a wide array of filmmakers, from the
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Coen brothers to Rian Johnson, from Zack Snyder to Michael Bay,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: and in each performance he continues to showcase this amazing
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: range of characters. Regardless of visual style and different tone
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: that's thrown at him, whatever the movie is, it's always
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: an improvement when you add Garrett to the bill. So
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: we'll only be able to scratch the surface on all
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: of his roles over the years, but That's because we
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: want to leave time to discuss Garrett's movie choice. And
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: this one definitely fits the theme of our show. Because
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: how a movie that stars Gene Hackman and Al Pacino
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: has managed to stay off most people's radar is very strange.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: The movie is Scarecrow, and it was released in the
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: 70s right in the middle of both performers becoming two
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: of the most influential actors in Hollywood. And yet, outside
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of hardcore cinephile circles, I never hear it discussed. But
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: this episode, we'll do what we can to remedy that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: So with that, we've got a lot of ground to cover,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: so let's get right to it as we talk with
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Garrett Dillahunt. I usually start at the beginning and just
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: try to get a sense of how people got into
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: this and where they started. So you didn't really grow
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: up in California. Was it Washington?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up in Washington State. I was born
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: in California, the Bay Area. My father was a trucker
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and moved a lot for work. Three boys, they had
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: two brothers, and we all were born in different states.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: So we left California. We lived a few different places
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: in California. I left there in third grade and got
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: to where I think of as my childhood home kind
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: of by mid-fourth grade in Washington State.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I guess if you were doing a lot, was that okay?
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I know with some kids that would be sort of traumatic,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: but if you did it a lot, I guess you
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: got used to it.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, we, you know, you're a kid,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: you don't know what's weird or not.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: It's just, this is where we moved. I don't, I
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: don't recall if it was hard or not, or I
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: was always kind of shy. So it wasn't, I don't,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I'd be lying if I
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: said like, yeah, it was so hard and, I had
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to be the class clown in order to make, I mean,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I just didn't do any of that stuff. We just
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: moved and that's what we did, you know.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Well, then what were you interested in that young? Was
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: there already artistic stuff or was it just kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: what was going.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: On as a kid?
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I always liked to draw. I thought I
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: was going to be a cartoonist someday. I liked reading.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I started reading really early. Started school when I was four.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I think mainly because I was just a pain in
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the ass, and my mom was like, please, please take
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: this kid for at least part of the day because
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: he's burning through the workbooks I get him. You know,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: I'm a curious kid, and my elephant book, I think,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: was my first book I read, and I've never stopped reading.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I always have books and collected comic books and drew
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: comic books and, you know, pretty typical nerd kid.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. That was most of my childhood.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right. Aren't you glad now?
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Definitely. It's certainly led to where I am. And that's,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I guess, with you too. Was there stuff you were
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: watching at that point? Did movies already kind of kick
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: in that early or did that come later?
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed them, I'm sure. I don't remember what I
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: was watching in third and fourth grade. I liked, you know,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Disney movies. That used to be how I'd blow out
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: my candles on my birthday. My wish would be to
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: see every Disney animated movie ever made, because I thought
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm going to do someday. I know by
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: seventh grade or sixth grade, I'd sent some cartoons to
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Disney that I'd drawn. And this is a testament to
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: the difference in the times, because I don't know that
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: anyone would take this time anymore. But I got a
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: letter back from them with my drawings returned. And a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: nice letter saying, you know, like, we're so thrilled you
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: reached out to us. Yada, yada. It's hard for us
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: to evaluate a young artist's work when he copies other artists.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Because I would just go to a cartooning book and
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: draw them, you know. He's like, please, you know, create
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: your own characters. You know, keep studying. Try different things.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: And sent me tickets to the movie that was out
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: at the time, which was, I think, Ride a Wild Pony,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: it was called. Which was pretty nice.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: That's, that's kind of amazing. And that's part of one
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: of the ones I keep returning to too, is like
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: how different the industry is as, as you go along
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: your journey, but especially like looking at the way things
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: are today, it's, it's drastically different. But also like looking back,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: like that far back, you would have a hard time
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: even knowing where to send it to. Like in a
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: way kids now at least have access to find things.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: But like back then it's like, where would you even
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: come up with the address to send that stuff in?
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: So that's, That's a whole different world.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I don't even remember it being very hard even. I
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: don't remember where we did. We just looked up the address,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I guess. Wow, like not on the computer, on a
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: phone book or something.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so crazy. Because, yeah, I think back that
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: far back, we were so disconnected from the rest of
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the world.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: It's crazy.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Well, then I guess when did performing come into play?
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Was it anything that young or was it further on?
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah I never really had I mean I think back
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: and I realized that I did plays like at church
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: or in sixth or seventh grade we did like Pee
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Wee Schoolhouse or something some small thing but it was
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: never like oh my gosh I've got to do this
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I was painfully shy I never did any plays in
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: high school or anything like that my brother did a
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: few musicals my older brother was very musically inclined and
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: I just couldn't imagine doing that. It just seemed terrifying
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: to get up in front of the whole school, you know?
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: That was pretty much where I was too.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It was not at all on my radar.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I was going to be a cartoonist for a while.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Then I, then I decided I was going to be
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: a journalist because I really enjoyed working on the school newspaper,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: kind of a hot shot on the paper and fancied myself,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: you know, Lou Grant or something. I'm, And it was
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: very romantic to me, and I thought, this would be
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: a great life.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, you eventually kind of pursued that. Do you
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: think that would have gone well if you went into journalism?
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it's changed just as much
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: as my business has. You know, AI and the internet
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: has not been kind to journalism.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not much of a market for it now, really.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not really journalism in the same way. It
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't feel brave. It feels like you're deciding to be
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: a servant to some master or another, and How do
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I get eyes? And what can I write that's the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: most click-baity? And I'm sure a lot of journalists are
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: very frustrated.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: They've crossed over too. It's like it's rare that anybody
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: just does print now. Like you have to be on video.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: You have to be creating one way or another. So
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: you couldn't even do print journalism or very rarely anymore.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: That romance is gone. I worked for a paper for
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: a while and, you know, It was just so wonderful
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: just to go out and do a story. And you're
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: your own cameraman because it was a small-town paper. And
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: then you take a negative of the entire page and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: develop that. And that's what they're printed off of. It's
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: just the romance of that is gone.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: It's a lost art form. I mean, nobody knows how
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: to do that anymore.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So I guess when did, is it the way like
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: college before plays or anything?
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I went to school to study journalism at
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the University of Washington in Seattle, which was the big
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: city where I was from. I'm from a little town
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: called Yakima, which is an agricultural community. A lot of apples, hops, cherries.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: You know, my father... was in the trucking industry. And
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: so that's why we moved around so much. And that's
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: where he settled. And that's what the companies he worked
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: for hauled was fruit basically and stuff like that. And, uh,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: so I went to school for journalism, but my, my,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: my last year of high school, my, my older brother was, uh,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: tragically killed in a drunk driving accident. Um, which, you know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: my normal weird little family, um, was kind of thrown
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: for a loop. And I'm in college now and sort
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of following the plan I had, but my heart's not
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: really in it anymore. So I just kind of drifted.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I just kind of drifted through. But anyway, sorry, it's a...
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: don't mean it to be maudlin, and it comes up
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: in interviews a lot, like, how did you get started?
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, here's the depressing part.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but that changed.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and part of that requirement of the playwriting course
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: was to take an acting class so that you knew
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: what you were writing for. You had a little inkling of...
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: what was required by the actors and how to write
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: better for that. In fact, how to make your plays
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: actor proof, you know, the proper use of stage direction
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: or indication of what you feel the characters should be
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: feeling or going through at a certain time. And I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: was mortified at the thought of this acting class. I
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: did not relish the thought of getting up in front
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: of my classmates and just humiliating myself. You know, I
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: didn't feel, you know, being a year young for my grade,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: through grade school anyway, was just, you know, I'm smaller
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: than everyone for most of the time.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: You're always different than everyone.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: You're shy. Yeah, the girls forget it. You're not getting
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: a date, you know. And so you internalize these things.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: You think this is who you are. This is how
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: it's always going to be. And so I was just,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: you know, really shy. But lo and behold, and I
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: was nervous as I would get, you know, when I
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: hit the stage, I just felt completely and oddly... freed
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: in the skin of somebody else. And I realized that
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: this is exactly what I needed because I just didn't
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: want to be me. I was angry. I was hurt.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what I wanted to do because I
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: just learned that life is short and can be taken
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: from you at any moment. And I was like, well, damn,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do something I don't enjoy. And
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: it became real therapy for me, and I just threw
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: myself into it. I was doing scene work for my
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: own class. I would audition for productions. I would do
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: scenes for the directing students. I was just going all
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: over campus all day, all night, just nonstop, just playing
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: as many different people as I could and really trying
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: to immerse myself in those people. And I didn't know
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: that I'm training myself for a career. I didn't know
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: that I was solidifying habits or I just knew I
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: didn't want to be me, and I wanted to be
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: as far from me as possible. I could say all
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: these great words from all these super intelligent people who
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: were much better writers than I was, so I always
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: knew what to say. I was never fumbling for words
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: because they were right here. It was fantastic. I'm grateful
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: for those times because I'm still kind of doing the
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: same thing. just with less discomfort about, you know, who
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I am. But, uh, it is also interesting to, to
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: think about how, how you solidify habits, you know, how,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: just like, you know, ingesting and internalizing that I was
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: not worthy of a girlfriend or that I was going
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: to be small, that I'm shy, that no one wants
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: to hear from you as a mistake. It's just as
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: much of a, a mistake in a way to just think, uh,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: because I had no thought about the business end of things.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't think about like educating myself for the business
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: of this. I just knew that I'd do anything, anywhere, anytime,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: any kind of character, give it to me, I can
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: do it, you know, and that's a great thing, but
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: it becomes an obstacle at a certain point in your career. Yeah.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a lot to kind of take on
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: at that point. And then, I mean, I guess that
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: also just sort of builds you up, like as you
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: as you keep doing it, you also get a little
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: better at it each time. And it gives you a
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: little more confidence, even if you don't realize it at
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: the moment, you know?
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Well then I guess what, what made you flip the
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: switch of like, Oh, well now I, I might need
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: a career. Like, were you still assuming you were going
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: to try to do journalism or was it going to
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: be a different job?
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This upended all my plans. Cause I was like,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: I'm an actor. This is what I'm going to do.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And big shock to the family as well. Yeah. It's
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: not a huge leap from journalism, not like journalism is
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: super lucrative for most people. But it was just a
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: shock that little shy Garrett wanted to do that. And
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: so I found it my last year of school. I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: was like, well, now I guess I'm out. I stayed
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: and I worked. There was a guy named Bob Hobbs
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: who used to run the graduate acting program at the
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: University of Washington. Right when I was there, there was
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: this whole sort of coup thing. And he was ousted
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: as the department head of the graduate acting program. Kyle
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: MacLachlan went there. A lot of pretty great actors. Patrick
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Duffy came through UW at the time, and he was
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: their teacher. So they brought in this new guy, and
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Bob was kind of, because he had one more year
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: of his contract, so he taught undergrads for one year.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And it was a very rigorous audition process, and a
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: handful of us got in. And so we became this
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: sort of de facto, you know, him thumbing his nose at,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: you know, the university brass for ousting him. And so
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: he sort of worked us, real Calvinistic approach to acting,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: you know. And he just worked us to death and
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: we sort of became this sort of unspoken competition to
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the new grad program. It was like, well, I'm going
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: to take these undergrads and mold them into this incredible whatever.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: But it was very good news for me because I
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: just got this incredible teacher very early on. And he
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: got me ready to go out, go out in the world.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: And I acted around Seattle for a year. I realized
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: I didn't really know what I was doing still, so
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I decided to go to grad school. So I crashed
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the auditions for grad school in San Francisco, and I
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: got into a few programs there.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Does the schooling, I mean, obviously you stuck with it.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: So I guess that, cause some people just seem like
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: they throw themselves in it without any training. And like,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: so I guess it was instrumental for you.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I don't think everybody needs training. Uh, although
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I think you do better with some training, whether that's a,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: whether that's a conservatory program or not, and it's up
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: to you, but I think class is beneficial just someplace
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to practice. You know, you can't just go in and
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: wing it. Um, I think that's why there's a lot
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: of British actors that come over here are just so
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: much more facile and comfortable with language and really good at,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: they have a real solid technique. And it's why a
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: lot of people hire them, you know, and why they
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: come over here to work. And I think that's a
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: better idea than just showing up and winging it and
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: just being like, I don't know, man, I'm just going
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: to wing it.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: It builds those good habits that at least then you
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: know how to get yourself into the process versus just
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: showing up.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I think so. But like I say, not everybody benefits
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: from training. I was so green that it was a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: great idea for me. I walked into a place, NYU
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: is the place I chose just because I've never been
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: east of Montana. That was my logic. I walked into
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: a place that you got 15... You know, people waiting
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to work with you. You got a whole staff. You know,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it was a very welcoming experience. You know, if you're
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: going to move to someplace like New York, to have
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: a place to go, to practice every day and get
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: better and get better and perform. And then eventually agents
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: come to the shows. And, you know, for me, it
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: was a fairly quick... I had an agent by my
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: second year, you know, and I was like, geez, I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: just started acting two and a half years ago. You know, it's...
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: It was really good for me, and I have real
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: fond memories of the place and, you know, stay in
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: touch with my teachers who were still alive from those days,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you know. It was great. It was great. A great
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: place to go fail, you know.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: That's part of it, yeah. Well, then was the transition
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: to film an easy one? Because that's a different process, too,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: is having to work to the camera versus an audience.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'd always been accused of being small anyway,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: sort of small and detailed kind of work, which doesn't
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: often work well for stage. So in a way, I
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: think I'm better suited to film and TV. But we
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: didn't have a ton of film training at the time.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Their prevailing theory was it's the same thing. You don't
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: need it. Just be a little more precise, be a
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: little smaller. But I always used the word smaller, which
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't need to worry about because that's what I
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: always did anyway. But that's not totally true. It would
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: have been great to have had some film and TV training.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: And this kind of goes back to what I was
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: saying before about having no real business plan for myself.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: All I wanted to do was play different characters. That's
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: all I wanted to do. The farther from me, the better.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: It was therapy, sure, at least for a while, but
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: then it becomes a challenge. You don't think I can
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: do that? Watch me do it. Unfortunately, that's not great.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: A great business plan. I didn't even know when I–
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: because people don't know what to do with you, especially
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: when you're young. As I got older, that becomes your pigeonhole. Oh,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you're the guy that can do anything. Even if you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: can't do everything, you let them think that. And you're like, yeah, yeah,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that's me. I can do anything.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: If you're convinced you can do it, then you're at
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: least in the door you know.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: But you know early on they're looking for one thing
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you know most movie stars they do the same thing
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: over and over again you know it's very it's comforting
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: it sells tickets you know if you go in and
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: you're like oh my god is that the same guy
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: like that that doesn't sell a ton of tickets it's
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: impressive to your friends but but it's it's what i.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Liked It is true. Just kind of looking over your
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: different roles over the years, it's a very chameleon quality
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: of you can be entirely different characters, which in general
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: is what you're supposed to do. But some people aren't
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: that good at it, whereas you just are completely different
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: from one role to the next.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's ability or opportunity. That's
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: the opportunity I've had. I look all right. I'm no
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Robert Redford, so maybe I was never going to be
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the one that all the girls want, you know,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: but I didn't try, you know, I didn't even, I
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: didn't buy that either, like no girls ever liked me,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: so why would that change in the movies, or you
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: just don't know, you just don't, you don't know yourself well,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: and I just did theater about seven or eight years,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: pretty solid, right out of school, I didn't even think
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: about film or TV, and I just, I just got
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: hungry one day, I just was like tired of living
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: check to check, and job to job, and digging myself
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: out of the hole every job and then slipping back
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: in between jobs. And I was like, maybe I should
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: do some film or TV or something.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I think that's what leads a lot of performers. Yeah.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: You know, it's just like, why did I wait so long?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Like you could have, I wish I would have mixed
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: it up a little more earlier on instead of just
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: sort of, I've always been a little bit cork in
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the ocean about my career. I just feel like, well,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: whatever's going to happen is going to happen. I guess
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to live here for a year. Where's this place? Okay.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: You know, and I've always had a lot of envy
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and admiration for people that kind of plot their course
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: or like, this is what I'm going to do and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: here's how I'm going to do it. And I'm just like, wow,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: you can do that? Oh, I guess you can. Shoot,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I should have done that. Now it's too late or whatever,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: you know, but I still feel that way.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: But I mean, it turns out differently. I mean, you
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily, there's so many kids you see that are
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: immersed in it so early on that they don't even
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: know a different option. And then sometimes it totally backfires
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: and they have shot themselves in the foot as they
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: get into their careers.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: There's no template for sure. But a lot of things
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: that I find, I don't know if everyone else feels
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: this way, and then they might in other professions. At
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: the lowest times, you compare yourself to people, which is
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: the worst thing you can do. And you realize, oh,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I could have done something a little different here or
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: if I'd have made a different choice there. It might
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: have spawned this thing I say I want now and
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you don't have. And, you know, you can't spend too
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: much time looking back, but I think it might be
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: important every once in a while to look back and learn. Yeah, definitely.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: In general, we need to do that as people. We
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: don't always.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to not look, to not, you know, just keep
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Definitely. Well, I wanted to hit a few movies. I
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: know we... Again, you have so many, it's kind of
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: hard to pick. I think I've just thrown out a
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: few that were like very different and bigger directors to
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: work with. So, I mean, I guess just the fact
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: that you worked with the Coen brothers is kind of amazing.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: So how was it being on that set and how
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: did they work that, you know, was different than what
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: you'd seen up to that point or since, I guess?
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I'm in New York at the moment.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I just was walking by the building that I don't
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: think is their offices anymore, but It was then, and
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I remember walking into it to audition for No Country
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: for the first time. They're great guys. I wish I
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: knew them better and had worked with them more, but
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: they're very specific and eclectic in their own taste and
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: their own desires for the kinds of movies they make.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: They make all different kinds of movies, which is amazing.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I think it's confusing for audiences sometimes.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also like... A, how rich do you
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: need to be? And also, what interests you? I'm pretty
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: sure they feel like they've got a fine life, they've
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: had some amazing experiences, and they want to do the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: things that interest them instead of chasing current fads or whatever.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe they're kicking themselves and wishing they
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: were directing big blockbusters or something, but I don't know.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I've always been drawn to that kind of person.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: And I was a huge fan of Cormac McCarthy's writing,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: so I was determined at the time to do every
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Cormac McCarthy adaptation ever made. I got in two of them,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: but that's it so far.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: They seem so detail-oriented. Was it different on the set
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: of them trying to focus on specifics, or was it
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: just kind of.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Your normal performance? No, I don't know if it was
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: normal at all, but... it's just a very wonderful atmosphere
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: that they create. And I'm assuming they do it on purpose,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: but what was bizarre. And I was talking to Richard
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Deakins about this on his podcast. You know, they storyboard heavily. They,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: they have a plan. They know what every shot's going
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: to be, but I never felt like that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: That's kind of impressive that they're, They're still working within
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: that framework, but they're letting you do what you need
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, and I think I called him Richard by mistake. Roger,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: of course. I worked with twice that same year on
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: No Country and Jesse James. Just a humongous fan of
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: that guy and really fun to be around. But, you know,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I would do something very organically, I felt like. Like,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: what do you want to do here? I never recall
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: them saying, this is where you're going to go. They
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: just say, you're going to go up to the door.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay. And I'd say, I think I'd do this.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And they'd be like, okay, great. And then you see
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: the storyboard and you've done exactly what they drew somehow.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And I don't ever recall feeling tricked or being ordered
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to do something. You know, Roger's really calm. He feels
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: like a real, you know, third scene partner in a scene.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: You know, just him and his camera are so somehow benevolent.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: and unobtrusive at the same time, like the most loving
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: observer you're going to get. And it was just, it
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: was just a wonderful experience. You know, I auditioned several
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: times for Moss every time they had Josh Brolin, wasn't
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the first choice, wasn't the first offer, I should say.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: I think Heath Ledger was in there for a while
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: and it was too much like broke back for him
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: and for some reason or other him, Joaquin, other people
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: would fall out and they would see me sort of,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and other people too, um, between, and it just became
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: apparent that I'm just not famous enough. You know, you
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: need someone with a little bit of, a little bit
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: of juice to, to help them sell the movie, you know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: which makes sense. And so they gave me this, they
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: gave me this other part, which was a fine part
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: and a fun part. And I got to hang with
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Tommy Lee and them and, you know, who's also a
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: director in his own right, Tommy. So I felt very
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: well taken care of and very much over my head
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: in some ways, but also right at home. I wish
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I'd fit into some of their other movies that they've made.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're supposed to be coming back together. So hopefully, yeah,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: we can see the brothers back together again. You mentioned
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Jesse James. You've got a lot, even around that time,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that are super heavy material. Sometimes I'm watching some of
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: these and I'm like, did they just call you in
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: for the darkest parts of the story? We just need
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: this guy to ride a horse and get shot. Is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: it almost overwhelming, some of the darker material that gets
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: thrown at you, or is it just part of what
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: you did?
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I've never been one to internalize the part. Maybe my
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: wife would disagree, but I never feel that affected. I
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: think it's important to put it away and go home.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And I like that demonstration of craft, that you can
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: click in and out of it at will. I like that.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Some of the heaviest stuff is the most goofy between takes,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I think, to sort of alleviate some of that tension.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: For me, some of these experiences, it's always about... Like
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: my own fear about not having work. Deadwood had just ended.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I think I was one of the few guys in
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Hollywood that had a beard at the time. It wasn't
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: as in as it is now to have a beard.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: And I thought, will I ever work again? Will I
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: ever work again? Deadwood was such a mountaintop experience. And
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I auditioned for this pilot called Book of Daniel, in
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: which I would play Jesus Christ, like literally Jesus Christ
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: in robes.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: That's a lot to deal with.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got it. Aidan Quinn was a great cast,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: but doomed from the start. And the pilot wasn't picked up,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: so thankfully. And then I went through a rigorous audition
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: process for Andrew Dominick for Jesse James, and I got
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: the role of Charlie Ford. because I kind of look
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: like the ugly Affleck brother you know I could be
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: one of the some like mongoloid cousin or something.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not buying any of this.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But then the pilot resurfaced and it was the exact
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: same shooting dates as we tried everything to get out
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Cause it's, it's to this day, one of the best
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: roles I've ever been cast in on film. Like it's,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: it's a wonderful part that just goes all over the place. Um,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and they said they just couldn't do it. They're like,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: he's in every scene. He's Jesus Christ. You know, I'm a,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: he's a figment of this guy's imagination. Brad Pitt offered
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: to do a guest spot for them if they would
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: work around it and let me play this part. And
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: they just couldn't do it. I don't think Brad had
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: done television at the time. Um, Which just boggles my
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: mind that they'd say no to that. But regardless, you know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: and everyone's nice people here. You know, they didn't know
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: everything was going to go to shit, you know. So
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: they cast me as, you know, in a different part
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: in Jesse James as Ed Miller. You know, a much
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: smaller part. And we got Sam Rockwell to take over Charlie.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of one of those things I'm talking about.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Just this sort of cork in the ocean way and
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: not giving in to fear. Things you wish you'd done differently.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: If I'd just been a little more patient and believed
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: in myself a little more, I wouldn't have been so
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: desperate to take any job that came my way. And
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: after a while of that kind of thing happening or
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: you're just taking whatever work comes your way, then you
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: run the risk of being unavailable for a lot of
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: things that are better or you run the risk of
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: pigeonholing yourself in the eyes of the industry to be
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: somehow less serious or somehow less worthy of more responsibility.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: It's a, it's a weird thing.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So Jesse James conjures up all kinds of memories
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: for me is my point. You know, most of it
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: being regret, but also thrilled that I could be a
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: part of it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's, again, it's just, there's so much, there's
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: only so much you can do, you know, sometimes things happen.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: And as you're saying, you're just kind of learning and,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: to go with it and make the best of it.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: And when you're that committed to it, yeah, I mean,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: it still comes through. Yeah. Another one around that time, though,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Last House on the Left. I've always been so impressed
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: because the way that that story originally was, it's making
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: such a small change, really, in the specifics of how
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: it went from the old version. And, like, it just
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: adds such a layer to it. but that is just
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: so dark. Like it just, it gets so.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Which changes that? What's the different part?
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Again, I guess no spoilers, but to me, the minor
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: adjustment from a plot point is not killing off their daughter.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And like that, I feel like completely changes the motivation
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: of the parents because you can't, like you, if you
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: watch the, you know, the, the, the west version it's
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: like they don't really care anymore like you can't like
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: you've lost the only thing that matters to them so
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: at this point it's just revenge at any cost if
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: it takes me out in the process who cares i
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: just want revenge where you don't have that in the
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: remake like you they need to be there for their
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: daughter but also there's just vengeance now so it's i
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: feel like that's such a an interesting move that got
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: thrown in there that makes it almost an entirely different
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: story Yeah.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, both movies are remakes of The Virgin Springs,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: which is weirdly, I mean, it's like the attack is
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: horrifying in that movie and how the kid sort of
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: shovels that handful of dirt on the dead girl's face
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: to hide it because he can't stand, he can't take
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: her sort of looking at him. And then she's just this,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: pale corpse with this obscured face with mud on it
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: you know it's horrifying you know and then also the
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Vietnam War I mean the first one was kind of
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: a response to the Vietnam War you know like the
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: audience response was so different between the two like it
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: was horror in Wes's show that the parents had sunk
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: to the same level like that was not a good
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: move that was like oh no like the now everyone's lost.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It just seems so hopeless in that first.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And our version, it's people are cheering. Like they're,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: they're tearing the roof down for the parents to, to give,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: to give back a little bit, you know, and it
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: was really interesting sort of difference in the, you know,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: in the audience and the, the, you know, sign of
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the times and all that. It's, it's really interesting, but yeah,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: but I thought for remakes, I thought we, other than
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: the ending, I thought we made a really good one.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, again, I think, especially they were doing
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of remakes at that time, and I think
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: it maybe gets swept up with some of those others,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: but I think it's, yeah, it's such an interesting take
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: on the story. Well, I was jumping ahead a few years,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: but again, mostly for drastically different types of films, still
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: kind of horror, I guess. I recently was re-watching Army
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: of the Dead. That, what is, I mean, Zack Snyder
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: has such a, distinctive visual style. Like how different is
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: it being on that set and the way that he
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: sort of runs things?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I loved it. You know, I, I, I don't know
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: if he likes me or not. I hope so, but
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I sure liked him. And, um, I just dig how
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: much he loves movies. Um, there's a big group of people,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of egos he had to manage. Um, But
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I know it's not his.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: What? You said not his? Was he not in there
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in the ego department?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure he's got a healthy ego. I think
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: he's a confident guy. But it didn't feel in any
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: way unhealthy to me. I just liked him a lot.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: He seems fair. He seems kind in his way. He's
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: a really good athlete. Um, and that would get frustrating
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: sometimes he, because he'd be like, and then like, what
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: if you come over here and you just kind of,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: you do this and then you, um, I don't know,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: maybe toss this thing over here. And, and whatever he
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: would say, he would just accomplish like immediately. Like I
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: was just like, okay, dude, can you, cause then I
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: would take like five takes to get it right. Cause
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't, I would miss, or I would throw it
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: in the wrong spot or, you know, like close, but
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: not quite up close, but not quite. And he, you know,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: so he was intimidating that way. that he was so
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: much more capable than, and I sort of fancy myself
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: a good athlete, but I really like him and I
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: hope I get a chance to work with him again.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I haven't, I haven't seen him since those, those times,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: but it was a fun shoot for me. I dug it.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: When you mentioned the big cast, that was one of those,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: one of the, I remember kind of wanting to rewatch
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: it because that's one of those earlier for Ella Purnell.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: That's like before she, she just had such a run recently.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Do you remember on set? This was kind of what
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I was watching because I feel that even as an
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: audience member, sometimes you just see somebody kind of hit
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: their stride and like you see them sort of come
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: into their own as as, you know, an actor and
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: sort of career wise. So I don't know. Did did
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: you feel like, you know, or even just in general
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: watching like people coming up over the years that like
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: you can you can catch a performance and be like
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: this kid, something about this kid, you know?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I think you can smell it on people. You know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I was fortunate to be, like I was in Ryan
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Gosling's sort of big breakout role, The Believer. You know,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: no one knew who Ryan Gosling was outside of television.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it was his first film, but
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: it was one of them. That was like 2001. You know,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: that's a long time ago. Yeah. Jennifer Lawrence's first film
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and Winter's Bone kind of put her on the map.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: That was one I was thinking of too. Like she,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: that was like an announcement of her.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and you, you know, there's a reason that,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: that someone was like, this kid's going to have this movie,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: this girl, I think there's something special about her. And
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: it's wild to see, you know, it's, it's wild to
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: work with people who are the leads of the movie.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: And they'll say things like, Oh, we studied you in
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: acting class. And I'm like, you did shit. And what
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: did I do wrong? You know, or it's just, it's
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: just amazing that time can pass that way or, or,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: you know, and Ella, you know, she, she, I just
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: think she's amazing. She's got these Betty Davis eyes and,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: you know, when you meet someone and they don't seem
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: to have any awareness of their sort of timeless beauty, say, or,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and she's got great sense of humor and
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: she's just hang, she's a good hang. Like she could
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: hang with anybody and just sit around and shoot the shit. And,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I liked her. She talked about a review
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: one time where, some play she'd done in the, in
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: the reviewer was mean to her and said, but the
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: eye to face ratio of a squid. Wow.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: That is uncalled for. Yeah.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: And also just like, are you insane? Like this is,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: this is one of the most amazing features about it.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: So she was, I just called her my little squid
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: the rest of the time, but just to take the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: power away, you know, but definitely.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Cause she's, yeah, she's gorgeous. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. You know what I mean? But it, It's
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: amazing to me to meet young people that are unaware
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: of these things, and you can't really say it. You
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: can't talk to someone and be like, oh, you're so gorgeous.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: It's creepy. It's creepy. you know but you want to
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: reassure them you want to be like I don't know
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: what mirror you're looking in but this is not an
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: obstacle you need to worry about you know you need
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: to do whatever work you need to do sure but
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: you know you're going to do great things and it's
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: really fun to see you know what happens with people
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that you sort of cross paths with you know i
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: remember aaron paul in last house i was like what
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: are you doing this he's like i'm doing this pilot
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: thing i don't know it's kind of weird what's it
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: called breaking bad.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: And i've never heard of that again i.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Know but it's just like wow like you just don't
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: know sometimes you just you just you just don't know
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: what's gonna what's gonna pop and what isn't what's gonna
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: grab the zeitgeist you.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Know and And it can kick in so fast, like
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: within a.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Couple of years. Yeah, and that's freeing in a lot
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: of ways. It's like, well, I can't. I've been parts
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: of many things that are like, oh, my God, this
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: is the one. This is going to blow them out
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: of the water. And then it's like it just doesn't
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: even register. And then things you pass on that become
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: monstrous or little things you do that you're like, oh,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: no one will ever see this. And you're like, oh,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: this is a massive. Like we did this indie film
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: called Any Day Now. Great director, young director named Travis Fine.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Me and Alan Cumming are the leads in it, right?
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: And it's a semi-true story about these two guys in
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: the 70s. Alan's very out and proud. My guy's closeted
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: and comes out and falls in love with Alan. And
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: we both, we decided we were going to try to
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: raise this sort of homeless boy with Down syndrome. And
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the courts won't let us keep him. You know, it's
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: his whole sort of tragedy and he gets to go
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: back to his birth mom who has a drug problem
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: and kid dies, you know, spoiler alert, but, you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: it was a wonderful movie, and it won all the
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: audience awards at every festival it went to, you know,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: it was a tearjerker, and then in Japan, they changed
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the name to Chocolate Donut, because the boy loved chocolate donuts.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Lines around the block to see this thing, people just,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: people coming with boxes of Kleenex, you know, knowing they're
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: going to, and wanting to cry about it, and they're just,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: They made a stage play about it, a stage musical
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: about it. They loved this thing so much. And it
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: was just this so low budget indie. We're living in
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: honey wagons while we make it. We have the worst
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: wigs you've ever seen. There was no money for anything,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: but everybody gave 100%. And it was just like, I mean,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: who would have thought that this would speak to a
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Japanese audience so.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: It's such a different culture. Yeah, you can never tell
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: what kicks in in different places.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Or just what project is going to grab people by
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: the heart. It's almost like the stock market. It depends
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: on geopolitics and other things happening in the world about
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: what's going to grow and what's going to die. It's weird.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Well, that was, yeah, I was in the unsung cinema vein.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I was going to ask, so that's one. What's another
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: one that you've done over the years that is really,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: you know, in your mind really good and just hasn't
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: really caught on that people should probably go find?
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm really proud of this movie called
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Oliver Sherman.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was watching part of that this week. Yeah,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: it's another, it's pretty serious.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it is. You know, great young directors. I
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: don't think he's directed since. You know, Ryan Redford, you know,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: is a very unique, exacting personality. And I wish he would.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I think he's a great writer and a very sensitive touch.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: But I'm just really proud of it, you know, as
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: a sort of small piece. I think it just really works.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: It's Canadian style. I got nominated for a genie award
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: back in the day when those existed, like the Canadian
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: sort of Oscars. I mean, awards are kind of silly,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: but it was nice to be there and, you know,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: competing with Viggo Mortensen, you know, and you're like, Hey,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: but I'm real proud of it. And, you know, I've
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: got a lot of things like that, you know, ever
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: since Deadwood, I try to make everything into Deadwood. You know,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: everyone on that show just tries to recreate that experience.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: It was just such a wonderful creative time. Um, So
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: I guess that's why we're dissatisfied because there's no way
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: you can recreate that, especially in today's world. There just
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: isn't a time. No one's going to be that patient.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was, I just recently was talking to W.L.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Brown and he was kind of that same thing. They're
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: trying to recreate that scene on the Mandalorian. So it's
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: like them in alien makeup trying to deliver, you know,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: cocksucker lines back and forth. He had the same response.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It's funny, man. This life is funny.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I definitely wanted to get to, that's sort of
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: the focus of it eventually, is come around and find
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: a movie that you also feel people need to go
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: out there and find, and one that you've been attached
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: to over the years. So I will give the breakdown
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: here for your choice.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, all right.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Let's see. Our unsung cinema feature is Scarecrow. The year
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: is 1973. The director is Jerry.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Is it Schwarzberg?
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Schwarzberg. Schwarzberg, I think.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: And the plot, according to IMDb, which is usually questionable,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: an ex-con drifter with a perchance for brawling is amused
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: by a homeless... Yeah, that is how it phrases it.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: is amused by a homeless ex-sailor, so they partner as
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: they head east together. Awkwardly worded. So, spoiler alert, we're
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: going to ruin the hell out of this, so... hopefully
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: you've already gone and watched it by now because this
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: is one of those and that's why i was glad
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: you threw it out there this is one i've heard
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: of for years i actually listen to a show and
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: i swear every two months he will bring up scarecrow
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: as like such a a movie that like he just
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: keeps going back to and just going back to that
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: well and i was like i have to watch this
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: and then this was i was like okay well this
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: is the excuse we we definitely should should discuss that
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: so I guess my question for you is, what's your
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: history with this movie, and when you first saw it,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: and what was your first impression of it?
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I get why it's not some people's cup of tea,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: and maybe especially today. But it just opens so beautifully,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, is what hooked me at first. I don't
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: know if you saw it, but just the opening shot.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: The visual, just that him walking down the hill is amazing,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: like from the get-go.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: In this sort of stormy sky. Mm-hmm. The time they take,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: it's also a moment in time where there's some scenes
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: in this that feel a little bit actor classy. They
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: might go on a tiny bit too long. You're pretty
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: sure that a good percentage of this is improvised or
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: added to, but everyone's just so good. Al Pacino had
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: just filmed Godfather. Gene Hackman had just done French Connection.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if they were released yet or
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: they were just released. So they got these two sort
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: of newly minted superstars.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Like we were talking about, people not knowing what they're
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: about to walk into in the rest of their career.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're going to be staples on your screen
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: until the days they die. It's weird looking back, knowing
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the sort of awfulness. I just can't stop thinking about it,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: the way Gene Hackman's last days were. Just so strange
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: and bizarre and sad, and you're just like, oh, Jesus,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: this is that guy. The DP, I mean, the DP
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: shot McCabe and Mrs. Miller. He shot Close Encounters of
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: the Third Kind, Deliverance, The Deer Hunter.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: It's going down the list.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's insane.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Every director, it's De Palma, Spielberg, Robert Altman.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: And he shot these iconic things. And he shot this,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: this little sort of character study that just is a
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: spiral into tragedy and sort of sadness. But, you know,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: these two guys just in the middle of nowhere, both
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: trying to thumb a ride, end up, you know, sort
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: of buddies. And, you know, I was just... re-showing my
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: wife the scene in the prison, you know, they get,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: they get tossed into a work camp, which is just
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: for a month or so. And Pacino's character is sort
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: of an innocent, you know, who, who thinks he's a
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: joker and fancies himself funny. And we know those guys
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: that they aren't, they aren't even really that funny, but
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: they just, they just try so hard.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: It's how they deal with things. Yeah.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, and, and Gene Hackman, like even, even in
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the opening scene, he crawls through that barbed wire fence
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: and it kind of gets hung up on it. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: he looks back at the fence. like he's about to
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: kick the shit out of it, like it was personal.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: He's pissed at a fence.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: He slides down that embankment and then looks at the
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: embankment like, should I take the time to kick the
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: shit out of this embankment? I mean, they just move
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: through the world so differently, and they end up sort
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: of quickly becoming pals. And that scene in the prison
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: where Al just doesn't seem, you know, Lionel, Francis Lionel, Lion,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: they call him in the movie, just doesn't, read the
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: danger he's in from another inmate. Just doesn't read it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Which you should know, because Richard Lancer's always creepy.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was his first part.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: He did so many movies, he's always the bad guy.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And this was his first film, by the way.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing because he's already got that presence as soon.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: As he's in the screen. Eileen Brennan is in this. Oh, yeah.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: From like Private Benjamin.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: For like two seconds. Like you just see.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Enough for her to hook up. And she's just like in,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: in Gene Hackman's face. She's just like, oh, I'm about
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: to fall down on the floor and have a heart attack.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: You're so scary. She's just all these amazing actors. I
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: felt like everyone was straight out of the actor's studio
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: or something. It was like in its heyday where it
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: was all about the actor's truth. And that's why it
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: feels like some of the scenes go on too long sometimes, but.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I'm just into it, and I'm so jealous of it,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: and this sort of time where you just, things breathe,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and you let it happen. And Hackman is so great.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: When Lionel comes in after he's been beat to a
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: pulp and assaulted by Riley, who's, like you said, Richard
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Lynch's guy, and they haven't been friends. They haven't been friends.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: He cut him off because he blamed him for them
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: being in jail. So he's like, you're on your own.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: But he calls Max. Max, he's in the middle of
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: the night. And the way Gene Hackman wakes up, first
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: of all, is so good, just trying to figure out
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: what's going on. And then he sees him across the
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: room and he gets on his glasses and he puts
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: on his shirt and he walks over there, tells another
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: guy to stay in bed, calm down. It's like a
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: cool hand Luke kind of holding tank. And he goes
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: over to him. It's just the greatest... It's this weird
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: ode to like friendship and understanding. And the ending is
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: such a tragedy. And, you know, the whole mission goes awry.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: But you just can tell that Gene understands. And Gene's
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: going to be there for him. And I don't know.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I love it so much. But
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: it's just some really fine, fine laser-like kinds of... acting
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: detail going on that i think is really really works
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: you really know these people.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah as i was watching it that's why i was
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: like well this is so interesting you know for somebody
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: who's spent their life doing that like yeah it's so
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: much of this isn't just like the story because the
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: story's minimal you know of like what they're doing it's
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: scene to scene they're doing specific things but the overarching
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: story is minimal it's all just character work and it's
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: all moments with them and And they're weird dynamic. Like
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: they're so polar opposites, but like watching them like this weird,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: cause Hackman is like so angry at everything coming down
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: off the hill and then like, won't speak to him.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Like Al being the little kid that he is, is
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: just excited to see another kid to play with. And like,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: he wants to be best friends immediately and Hackman wants
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with him. So he's just like, they
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: spend like a day not talking, just like ignoring each other,
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: specifically Hackman, just trying to ignore him. And, They get
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: this ride. And by the time they get there, this
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: was so fascinating. That scene in the diner is so amazing.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Because it's like within moments of them sitting down, it's
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: not just like... They're business partners. It's not just we're
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: business partners. It's I've got enough money to get us started.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: It's already us. I've got... They are a team by
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the time they sit down and order breakfast. And I
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: was like, that is such a.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And Hackman is like, clearly, he's like, you're on
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: your own in this life. You know, it's a lonely life.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: You know, you got to do it yourself. No one's
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: there for you. And, you know, it's a fantasy. You know, it's,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Milch was always big on that too. Like, it's a
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: fantasy that you think you're going to get through this
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: life alone. You know, we need other people. We need,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: in some way, You know, there's someone else that you're
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: going to have to rely on at some point for something.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: And we're better off for it. You know, we're part
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: of a larger organism. And it just feels like we're
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: seeing that played out on a macro scale with these guys,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: Because he even says that. He's like, you know, I
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: don't need anybody. I don't love anybody. Like, he says it.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: But even as he's saying it, like, you've watched him, like,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: immediately just be attached to this guy. Yeah. as many
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: faults as he has, this is probably not who you
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: want as your business partner. But at the same time,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he didn't care. Like he immediately just attached
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: himself to this guy is as much of a cranky
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: old bastard as he already was at that point.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's crazy.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: When it's also very like the more I was watching,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: it's such an American kind of a tale at that point.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Like it was reminding me of all that stuff. I've
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: seen people, I got a very Easy Rider vibe out
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: of it, and then I've seen people compare it to
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Mice and Men.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of the reviews talked about those two
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: movies in particular, and you've seen it before and better
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: in those things.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: And Midnight Cowboy. It's very Midnight, especially as he's hurt
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: by the end of it, it's very Midnight Cowboy too.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: But it's just kind of, I don't know, something's different
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: about it for me. I had a real fantasy when
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: I was in college of hopping a freight, you know,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: and There was even a book, this underground book called
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: The Freight Hopper's Manual, which I'm sure wouldn't work today
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: with all the cameras and the electronics and the security
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: and all that. But it was just like, this is
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: how you do it. And it's what to look out for.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: And these are the best stops and the worst stops.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: And I was like, man, someday I'm going to hop
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: a freight. I'm going to just travel this country. But
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: there's something about that that appealed to me, I'm sure.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Anne Wedgworth needs a mention. She played Frenchie.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Who took a shine to Gene Hackman. And she's kind
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: of Karen Black-ish to me.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: You've seen her around, super sexy, super, you know. But
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: everything she did in the few scenes she has, you
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: know her. You know who that is. This is a
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: defense mechanism. This is how I survive. I'm going to
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: cook for you. And then, oh, I burned everything. And, oh,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: we'll have to order KFC. And, you know, it's just.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: I want to bring you the beer. Don't you bring
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: him the beer. I want to bring him the beer.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know her. Yeah, you know that lady. You've
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: met that lady. And there's a sadness underneath and there's
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: a hunger and a fear and a desire for safety.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: And it's just like, you know, the different ways in
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: this movie that people are surviving.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: And Hackman's almost like, again, we wouldn't have known it
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: in the 70s. Now I'm watching him like he's almost
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: on the spectrum. Like he's so like as he's out there,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: like everything has its place. You have to put this here.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: He's very measured in how he wants everything. Then like
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: his booklet he's carrying around of every dollar that he's
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: mapped out. Like he's he's got everything where it has
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: to be a certain way. And like is so angry
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: when life doesn't go that way. And so you've got
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: his friend being like, yeah, but that's not how it works.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: Like you just got to, as we said earlier, you
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: just got to go with it and like make the
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: best of your situation and make life work anyway. And
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: he just wants to fight that along with everybody else
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: in the world, really. But he's such a fascinating character
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: because he's so specific in how he wants everything to happen.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think a lot of people feel Al's
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: character is a little spectrum as well.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got that too. Yeah. Different. That's kind of
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: how the spectrum works. Everybody's so different.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: We didn't know that possibility back in the day. We
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: just thought this is the kind of person this person is.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: We didn't know there might be other things.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that whole finding yourself, to me, that was
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: also something that was so of this moment. Not just
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: that they were making other movies similar, but just that
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: 70s era brought with it that whole... what is it
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: to be an American and go and find yourself and go,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: you know, wander the land. Like it, it was something
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: that I think was in the country at that time.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: That's why we got so many stories that were sort
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: of like that, but that.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: And the failure of that, of that dream, you know, and,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: and also the toss in the mix, the sort of
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: character driven style of all those movies in the seventies,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: you know, electric glide in blue and the movies you mentioned,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: and there's just, it was just a whole nother thing
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: that people wanted. This was the birth of the antihero
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. And, um, the time they
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: took with things, it's just, you know, you're my Badlands
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: is one of my favorite movies. Yeah. I was going
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: to suggest that one to you, but then I was like,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: it's not really underappreciated. You know, I think a lot
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: of people appreciate that.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Eventually. Yeah. I feel like it's, it didn't used to be.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: And then, and I think like the last 10 years
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I've heard more and more people reference it. So I
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: think it found its audience.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: But it's, it's, You watch a car drive down the
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: road for like three minutes, it seems like. It's like, okay,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: we got it. And you know what the sensibility to do,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: but like, oh my God, okay, we got it. Was
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: anything going to happen in this movie? And you're like,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: it's just such a wonderful time to be an actor,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's so much of this movie. Like
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: I said, it's not the plot. The plot is we're
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: going to start this business, and that's way off at
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: the end of the movie in your thinking. But everything
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: that happens in between there is just character moments of
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: them and what weird things they do and how peculiar
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: they are about every little thing. Again, I don't know
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: that anybody would write a movie like this now.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: It's so immersed in these guys.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: It's almost, I mean, it's like we're just peeking in
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: on them for a short period of time and it's
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: like you leave and you go, I wonder what's going
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: to happen to those guys. I wonder where they ended up.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: Because it doesn't, it's unresolved.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: I definitely want to come back to the end. But yeah,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: that was kind of like trying to figure out what
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: we're supposed to take from this. And like, if there
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: was anything I feel like my best attempt at like
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: a takeaway is like trying to find balance. It's sort
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: of that golden mean of it all that like you
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: see these two approaches to life and neither really work.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: But like they influence each other a little bit and
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I guess is most successful with Gene Hackman. Like you
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: see like through the entire movie, all he wants to
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: do is just fight people. Like he's just angry all
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: the time. But we finally get that last scene when
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: they're together and like he somehow avoids... You know, he
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: starts to the point of you watch Gene Hackman do
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: a strip tease that you didn't know you needed to see,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: but there it is.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Here's another way out of this. I don't got to
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: fight this guy. Let's just make a joke.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you taught me how to laugh. It's like so
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: that he finally rubbed off on him enough that like,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, we watched him. That's how they got in
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: the work camp. He wanted to blame his friend, but
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: like it's him just being such a hard head. He
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: just wanted to fight anybody and do anything he could
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: to cause problems. And like he's his own worst enemy.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: But by the end, it's like you see him affected
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: by what Al Pacino's kind of brought to him.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: And neither of their plans was really working from the start. No,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: not really. But it's also a very modern notion that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: there has to be some kind of lesson. There has
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: to be some kind of moral here. What am I
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: supposed to get out of this? And it's like, I
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: don't know if that's another thing about the 70s movies
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: that I liked so much. There's so much left up
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: to me. There's something more poetic about it where it's like,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what's going on in this poem,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: but it's given me a certain kind of feeling that
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: I like. And, boy, this one line, this one couplet
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: sure resonates for me. And it's so beautiful. Somehow it
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: tells a story in a way that doesn't demand, and
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: the lesson I'm trying to teach you with this film
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: is this. And it's like, well, why don't you just
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: tell me that and save me two hours? I would rather...
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: I would rather have an experience, you know, than be
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: taught a lesson, at least so blatantly.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not hit you over the head with it. Yeah.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Where this just.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Plants it in there and like, you got to find it, really.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: It's like, unless you're willing to look for it, you're
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: just like, by the end of the movie, it ends.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: And you'll, if you're a normal moviegoer, you're just like, what?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: That's the end? Like, I can see so many people
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: being frustrated by the way it ends. And I'm still
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: a little perplexed sometimes, but I.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's just gone. You're just like, does he
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: get out of this fountain? You know, does it, you know.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: When he's still like, Hackman's still relatively angry. Like he's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: still just pounding on the counter, this poor woman.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: So he's still hostile, but we've seen a little improvement
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: with him.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: And life is fucking hard, you know. Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: It's like you watch the, once you go through the whole...
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: baby mama situation it's like that just sort of breaks
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: him and that was my other half of that scenario
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: is like you watch you know Hackman's always angry and
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work but you know Pacino's just he I'm
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: gonna be a clown and like but the clown is
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: just the cover-up like you're not really as much as
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: yeah it gets you out of situations sometimes but it
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: also isn't dealing with any of the problems really and
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: you see that like to the point of like he
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: spent so much time not dealing with his issues so
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: much so that he left, you know, he went to
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: go sail on a ship just to get away from
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: the reality of like, Oh God, I got this girl pregnant. Like,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: and then he comes back and he's faced with it.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: And like it, like something snaps in his head. So my,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: you know, he so didn't deal with it. It broke
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: his brain.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: There's so much to think about, you know, you don't get,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: you don't get to dictate how things go, you know? Yeah.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: There's consequences for your actions. There's, you know, it's not
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: a fairy tale, this life, you know, it would have
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: been great if it did work out. And she's like, yeah,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: come on over and let's be a happy family again
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: or whatever. But, you know.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: That's not reality. That's not, I mean, she has right
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: to be angry at him. You know, it's like, I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: get it. And like.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Same with Badlands, you know, it's, you know, you could
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: break it down and be like, oh, this is about,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: you know, cult personality or, you know, the hunger for
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: fame leading you to the, you know, and all that's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: in there, but it's just, it's just so much subtler
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: and it's so much more sort of just, you know, you,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: you get to learn these things by the little character,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: you know, details that are made, made it out to
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: you over the, over time that you, that you build
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: this whole round full 3d person, you know, by the end.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: And it's just, it's just a fun, it's just a
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: more fun way to tell stories in my opinion.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's, it's subtle. Like that was the other,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: the only other sort of takeaway is like, if, If
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: it were totally grim, you'd just see Gene go off
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: and whatever, but we specifically get that line that it's
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: a round-trip ticket, that he's coming back. We don't know
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: how long it's going to take, if he's going to
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: go try to make the business work and then, but
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: we know in his mind, he's already like, I'm going
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: to take care of you. I'll always make sure that
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: you're taken care of, even if it's going to be
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: a long stretch of time. We do feel like he's
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: coming back. I feel like that was another little takeaway, too.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, and my ideas of what's
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: possible change over the decades. And when I first saw
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: that movie, I was a different person than I am now.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: And now I've been through enough life where people have
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: thought I would never lose, I've lost. Where, you know,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: promises I've made, I've broken. And you're like, so maybe
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: he doesn't come back. Maybe, you know, there's other possibilities
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: to the... Yeah. to the story that change over time,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: which also I think is the kind of thing that
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: is great. Like it's going to end the same way in,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Fast and the Furious or whatever. You,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: you know what that ending is and that's, we'll tell
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: you what it is. And, and those are comforting. You know,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: there's a, I'm not shitting on that movie. It's like
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: different styles. It's genres. It's, you know, but if I'm
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: going to get challenged as an actor, it's not, it's
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: going to be in this kind of movie, you know,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: it's going to be in that, in a show like Deadwood,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: it's going to be in, you know, It's just fun.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: Speaking of the different styles, they did, I was reading
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: some of the behind the scenes that they didn't necessarily
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: get along that great just because they're both different in
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: the way that they approach acting and this specific role.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Gene and Al?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: Gene and Al, yeah. So I think Al later on
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: in life was like, his quote was, it wasn't the
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: easiest working with Hackman, who I love as an actor, but,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I think they were kind of having a
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: little bit of issues there. So it did make me
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: want to ask, you know, do you find that your
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: style of acting and your preparation is different than other actors?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: And what's sort of the best way you found to
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: kind of make it work, even though you're coming from
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: different places?
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I totally get that, especially when it's two two
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: two bowls like that and in the time you know
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: again it's wild to have been to have done this
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: so long and look i'm no gene hackman i'm no
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: al pacino in terms of you know the success i've
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: achieved but i've but i've.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Had a long life you're pretty good let me get
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: well you know i've been nothing but impressed i have
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: to say i'm.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not afraid to act opposite to anybody you know
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: i've worked with plenty of oscar winners and oscar winning
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: movies and you know and uh I've been on stage
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: with some greats, and I feel I've held my own.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: But when I came up, it was cutthroat. It was cutthroat.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: I never felt at school that people wanted me to
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: be good. People want you to fail. They want to
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: be the best one. They want to get the job.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Who's up for this job? That guy's shit. I want
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: to get this job. I love going to... you know,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: network tests and stuff in my 85 Camry and, and
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: then driving off with the job and all the, in
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: my mind, all the spoiled rich kids in their Beamers
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: didn't get it, you know? And I was like, ha ha,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: you know, like I got it. That's right. I'm going
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: to get in my Camry and I'm going to drive
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: this Camry onto the lot every day, you know, just
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: this weird sort of, and I was grateful for it.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: As I got out of school, I was grateful for that,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: You know, no one's going to help you. This is
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: on you. It's up to you. Um, I'm going to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: be good anyway, you know, and, and that's helped me
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: not be nervous for a lot of things. It's helped
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: me feel like, you know, I'm not going to break
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: down cause something's hard. There's a lot of good about it,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: but you know, I just did something with some young people, um,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: And I was talking to them about it, and I
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: was like, it's wild to see, like, you guys all
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: just like, oh, look at them. Look at them supporting
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: each other. Look at them. What the hell? Like, hoping
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: they all succeed. You know, it's sort of like, that's interesting.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: And it seems to be working all right for them.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: You know, we seem to be making a pretty good movie.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: Because there's downsides to everything. You know what I mean? Like,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: I know, I feel like someone... At least at one time.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: I never worked with anyone that I didn't leave wanting
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: to work with me again. I knew that. Whether we
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: did or not was another subject, but I pretty much
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: feel like I can get along with about anybody. But
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: I've had a few experiences. now where my brand of
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: taking a note or my doggedness about a scene comes
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: across as very aggressive and very angry to my shock
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: you know I'm not feeling that.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Way Yeah, you don't mean it that way, but that's
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: how it should be.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: But someone's come up to me at some point and
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: been like, you're just so angry all the time. I
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: get scared. And I was just mortified. Because first of all,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I'm a skinny little nerd who couldn't get across. It's
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: not like I'm, you know.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: But you're still carrying that around from the old days.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Who the fuck am I?
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: They don't see that.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make this thing good. And this
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: is how we've always done it. It looks like a fight,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: but it's not a fight. It's two people that really
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: just want to make the best thing. but it feels
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: like a fight to a newer generation. And I find
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: that I have to really temper how I behave. And
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: it's fun in a way. It's interesting. And it's also
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: like eye-opening. And I'm like, oh my God, how long
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: have I been coming across this way? I'm really examining
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: all past behaviors. And do I joke around too much?
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: Am I You know, giving each other shit used to
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: be a sort of creative outlet.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: And a bonding thing, you know.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and a way to bond. And now it's like, oh, no,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: they'll take that seriously. And, you know, whatever. It's not
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: bad to learn new things. But it is interesting, and
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: this is sort of not a great answer to your question,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: but it is kind of like I wonder who didn't
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: say anything. over the years and who was like, I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: don't know, that guy's, that guy's difficult. And in my mind,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: difficult just means you care about the, you care about it,
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that there really is an
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: answer with moving forward anyway, you know, it's like, because
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: you don't know how people are going to take things.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: And that is something we, we kind of keep questioning on,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: on the show and in a lot of conversations now
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: is like what, with each of these, you know, new generations.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: And I, and I feel like, the generations are shorter now.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: It used to be a 20 year block. And like
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: now I feel like because the world is changing so
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: fast and technology changes so fast, like I feel like
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: a kid's experiences within a 10 year span at most
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: is like, you can already have a whole new experience
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: with kids, you know, 10 years later, if not sooner
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: than that. So I feel like they're taking things totally
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: differently as, as the generation now, you know?
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: And the way to avoid any problem at all is
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: to be polite. I can do that. I don't think
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: my way is the best way. But I know it
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't feel good to feel misjudged. And if I'm giving
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: someone cause to feel some kind of way, what's that saying?
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: People don't remember necessarily what you say, but they remember
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: how you make them feel or something like that?
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: And I think people will remember, like, I didn't like
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: being on set with that guy. I got, you know,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, Oh shit. You know, I loved it.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: You know, I thought we were having a blast, you know,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: we made something really good, but I think I'm learning
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: as I get older. Like it's, it's not just about
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: the quality of the project as much as it is
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the experience. Like, I think the experience needs to be
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: fostered a little more in, in my approach. And I think, um,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: the great thing you're striving for just might follow, you know?
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: And it makes, well, it does make a question too,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: that how much of, you know, I, I'm all for
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: people not being jerks to each other. So that, you know,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: should be a given, but at the same time, like as,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: as you were talking about earlier in your career, like
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: how much of it was built on trying, like the
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: striving for it. And they like, I, it is a competition.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: So that made you better because of it. Whereas if
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: everybody gets along, um, Like, working together is good, but
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: at the same time, like, does anybody rise to the
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: occasion if nobody challenges them? There's a fine line there.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: I think so. I mean, look, I think standing ovations
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: are a bit ubiquitous right now. Like, it doesn't mean
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: anything if everyone's getting one. Like, if I'm going to
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: get one because I showed up, then why work hard? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: But I do think there's a graceful way to pop
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: in and out of that, to be just as, you know,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: say your piece and then let go or Remember that
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: I'm just part of this machine, you know. I'm no
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: more important than anybody else, but I never felt I was.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: But I think there's a certain kind of behavior on
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: set that you've got to guard against, particularly when you're
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: really in love with a project or a character or
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: you feel like you have a handle on it, you know.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: There's other cooks in this kitchen. Yeah.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of back to that golden mean.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: It's like you need both. Like you need to take
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: the lesson from the movie. It's like you need to, yes,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: be nice to people. But at the same time, we
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: have to have enough, you know, focus and competition to
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: make everything we're working on better, too. So it's finding
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: that balance between both of those.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I guess that's what I'm hoping to get
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: better at. Yeah.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: It's all. I mean, we're all working on it.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: In this last third. You know, I wonder what will happen.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: You still got a lot to do. I mean, you're,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: you're doing a lot of projects. You, you, you seem
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: like you've got a lot of stuff in the fire there.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: So it's, well, I hope so. Lanterns comes out the
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: 16th of August. I saw the first four episodes. I
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: think it's excellent. Aaron Pierre is a real talent. Um,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: I love Kyle Chandler and, um, it's, it's, it's really good.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to see if, uh, See what happens
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: with the zeitgeist in this little thing.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: Definitely. All right. Well, is there anything else? You said lanterns.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Anything else that you want to let people know is
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: in the works or anywhere to find you out there
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: in the world?
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the most recent coming up. We'll
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: talk again about other stuff later. I did a lot
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: of indies this year. Let me see if there will
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: ever be a place that anyone can see. you know
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: yeah i miss indies man i miss i miss them
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: having a venue.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: Well i mean that's we're at a weird spot in
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: time now because yeah i mean we just watched two
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: super low budget horror movies completely take over the industry
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: out of nowhere So I'm wondering how much that's going
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: to change things. As much as they've been killing the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: mid-range budget movie, does this revitalize that whole concept again?
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so. I hope people will seek them
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: out and find them. But that's the thing. There's a
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: whole new gen coming up, and they're just as hungry,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: and they've never known this industry to be anything but
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: what it is right now. And if they're not daunted, then...
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: Fuck it. You know, maybe they'll hire an old man,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: you know, and, and I think it's going to make some,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: you know, we might all get paid a little less
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: for a little while, but we might make some better movies.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: We might make some scarecrow kind of movies.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean, that's the, that's what you can do with,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: with these lower budgets is have a little more artistic
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: freedom and you're not worried about the making back your
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: millions right off the bat. And sometimes they accidentally do.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: So like it's, yeah, that's right. I think this is
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: the most hopeful I think I've felt about movies in
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: quite a while actually is watching that audiences returning to
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: sit in a theater again. Like that was amazing. Like
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: that was fun, huh?
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: It's like, we haven't seen that. That's, that's amazing. So
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: I'm glad we're, we're immersed in it. Let's go with it.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for doing what you do, man.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. Thank you for, for sharing
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: and picking this movie. It was, it was a good
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: reason to watch it and it's, it's an amazing film.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: But well, thank you, man. Have a great rest of
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: your day.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: You too. Otherwise, that about does it. Thanks for listening.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown, produced and
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: edited by the Oddity Studios, with music written and performed
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: by Andrea Davidson. For more on how to sponsor or
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: support the show, email producer at moviemeltdown.com.