Latest / Pod Save America / “Biden v. Trump v. Coronavirus.”

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“Biden v. Trump v. Coronavirus.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Dan talks to our friend Stacey Abrams
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: about protecting our right to vote this November and much more.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Before that, we'll talk about the fact that we now
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: have a Democratic nominee for president. Presumptive Democratic nominee. Presumptive
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Democratic nominee for president. And then Alex Wagner, the host
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: of Crooked Media's brand new podcast, Six Feet Apart, will
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: join us to talk about how Trump and his media
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: pals are playing politics with the pandemic. But first, check
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: out Pod Save the World this week. Tommy and Ben
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: talk about how a coronavirus clusterfuck led the acting Secretary
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: of the Navy to resign. how some inspiring world leaders
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: are rising to meet this moment, and then Tommy talks
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: with some Americans who got stranded traveling abroad. Finally, I
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: just want to thank all of you for donating over
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: now $ 1. 2 million to our Coronavirus Relief Fund, which splits
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: your donation equally to groups providing critical support to food banks,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: healthcare workers, restaurant workers, seniors, kids who depend on school lunches,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and others. So please, if you can, Help those in
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: need at crooked.com slash coronavirus. All right, Dan. Let's pretend
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: for just a few minutes that we're not in the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: middle of a global pandemic and go back to talking
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: about the Democratic primary.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: What a world. We're talking about the Democratic primary. Seems
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: like an enjoyable task.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: What a treat to talk about a primary. The primary
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: effectively ended yesterday when Bernie Sanders suspended his campaign and
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: leaving Joe Biden as the presumptive nominee for president in 2020.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: After losing the first three contests in a row, Biden's
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: victory in South Carolina marked the beginning of the most
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: dramatic political comeback I've seen in my lifetime. And he
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: went on to win the nomination by a bigger margin
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: than either Barack Obama in 2008 or Hillary Clinton in 2016,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: based on his strength with black voters, suburban voters, older voters,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: and moderates. According to RealClearPolitics, he starts the general election
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: with about a six-point lead over Donald Trump nationally. Dan,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: this result is a perfect example of why you and
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I get out of the prediction business after 2016.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: What are you talking about?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: We've always said it was going to end up as Biden.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: What is your reaction to Joe Biden, Democratic nominee for president?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think you really hit it where you
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: talked about the nature of his comeback. This is a–
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: it's an overwhelming win for him in terms of delegates.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: And he did it coming back from something no one
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: had previously come back for. It's weird you think about
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: it because it's like Joe Biden, former vice president, been
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: in politics forever. This is his third presidential run. And
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: yet he won with less money, less infrastructure, less staff.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: He basically was a frontrunner in name with an underdogs
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: campaign and he made it work. And Not to delve
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: back into the pandemic, but it sort of– maybe you
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: remember the night that Obama clinched the nomination in 2008.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: We all knew that was going to happen because it
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: was the last primaries, but it was still this huge–
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: June 3rd.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: June 3rd, I know. It was after my birthday.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Huge celebration, and we had a big party, and it
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: felt great. We all got to be together, and Obama
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: gave a speech in Minnesota at the site of what
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: would be the Republican convention, and we viewed that as
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: the launching point of the campaign. And here you have
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Biden celebrating in his house, right, in that basement or
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: wherever in his studio that we come to know so well.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And all of his staff are celebrating separately at home
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: in whatever their quarantine situation is. And so Biden wins,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: and the conversation was almost entirely about Bernie.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I know. I thought about that too.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: We should congratulate Biden. He is someone that you and
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I know quite well. He is one of the best
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: people in all of politics. He is as prepared for
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: this job as anyone has ever been. his message about
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: healing the soul of the country is something that a
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: lot of people, including ourselves, have been skeptical about. But
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: given what's happening in the country right now, it may
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: be the exact perfect right thing. And I think we should, people,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Democrats should be excited that we have a nominee that
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: we can be proud of, even if he wasn't the
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: person you supported in the primaries.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, we're not going to rewrite history here.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: We were fairly critical of Joe Biden's campaign throughout a
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: lot of the primary.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: I think.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: My criticisms or concerns were largely that the campaign is
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: not and the candidate are sometimes not nimble and creative
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: enough in a very fast paced media environment. And I
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: still have those concerns. But I also worked with Joe
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Biden like you did and and think he's an incredibly
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: decent person. And I do think that now that we're
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: in this crisis, so many of Joe Biden's best qualities
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: do really match up with the moment. He's steady. He's calm.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: He's experienced. He's empathetic. This is a nation that's going
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: to be grieving for a very long time. And he
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: is someone who has a lot of experience with grief
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and with consoling others. I do think like his unity message,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: if it is about pulling the country together and not
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: negotiating with Mitch McConnell. But I do think it is
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: powerful because there's going to be, you know, the country's
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: going through a tragedy and going through a crisis and
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: people do want to come together in a situation like that,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: even if Donald Trump and Republican politicians want to divide us,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: which is what they're good at. I do think the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: one quality that Joe Biden needs to show in this
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: moment that I think he has the capacity to is
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: sort of anger at the economic catastrophe that's unfolding for people.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: And look, he always talks about himself as middle-class Joe.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: That was his reputation in the White House. I do
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: think the danger here for him is on one hand,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: the country does want to be unified and wants to
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: come together. On the other hand, as this unfolds, there
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: is going to be so much anger and hurt among
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: people who have lost their jobs and are struggling in
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the economy. And he has to channel that. And I
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: do think he can, right? He's like the guy from
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Scranton and he, you know, middle-class was a huge part
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: of his message in the white house. But I do,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: that's sort of the one thing I wonder if he'll,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: if he'll be able to channel as this goes on.
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I mean that, You raise an interesting way of thinking
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: about this, which much of the conversation since the pandemic
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: has hit is about how this moment demonstrates the need
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: for Bernie's policy platform, right? When you have, as Bernie
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: points out all the time correctly, that when you have
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: an employer-based health system and you go through an economic crisis,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you're going to have millions of people who become uninsured.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: But I also think that this moment might actually perfectly
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: match Biden's personality and Biden's message. And he's got work
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: to do to be able to communicate that message and,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: as you say, match some of the tone and to
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: change the message. Because it is not about unity between politicians.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: It's healing a nation. And to get there, but he,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: you know, among the people running, he may have been
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: the person best suited for this moment, both in terms
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: of experience, demeanor, and personality.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: The other thing I always look out for after we've
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: had a series of elections is like, What does it
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: tell us about the electorate? And I think when you
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: look at how Joe Biden won and why Joe Biden won,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: it should tell us something about the kind of qualities
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: and leadership that a lot of Democratic voters wanted this
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: time around. And I think there were times in the prime,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: like it is, we can talk about this when we
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: talk about Bernie, you know, I think there's more voters
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: in the Democratic primary who may favor a lot of
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Bernie's positions. And yet, Joe Biden won such a commanding
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: victory among so many groups of voters that, you know,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: it should tell us something about what the electorate wants.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: And I think knowing, learning those lessons about what voters
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: are actually looking for when they go to the polls
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: is sometimes the most important thing of all the analysis
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: we do here, because So often we're just flying blind
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: and people's personal preferences feed into their analysis about politics.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: And the only thing that can really tell us the
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: truth is sort of what voters think when they actually
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: go to the polls. So let's talk about Bernie Sanders,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: who on Wednesday ended what had essentially been a half
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: decade running for president on a progressive platform that really
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: set the terms of the debate in the 2020 Democratic primary,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: pushed some of the party to the left, and inspired
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: a grassroots movement that was particularly strong with young voters,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: liberal voters, and Latino voters. In a speech Wednesday, Bernie
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: said that while his own campaign would be ending, there
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: was still a lot for he and his supporters to
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: fight for. Let's take a listen.
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: We have never been just a campaign. We are a grassroots, multiracial,
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: multigenerational movement which has always believed that real change never
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: comes from the top on down, but always from the
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: bottom on up. We have taken on Wall Street, the
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: insurance companies, the drug companies, the fossil fuel industry, the
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: military-industrial complex, the prison-industrial complex, and the greed of the
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: entire corporate elite. That struggle continues. While this campaign is
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: coming to an end, our movement is not.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: All right. So first, any final thoughts on Bernie's campaign
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: and his contribution to the party and to the debate?
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it is hard to. overstate how much
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders accomplished from where he started. So you think
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: back to 2015 when he announced basically by himself, I
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: think outside of the Capitol, to where he is now,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: the leader of a political movement. And it's just a tremendous...
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: It's just a tremendous accomplishment. And he, without a doubt,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: put issues on the table and turned them into more
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: mainstream Democratic issues that were not even discussed in any
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: real or loud way before that. And that is to
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: his eternal credit. I also think that there is a
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: history of losing presidential campaigns, having issues. huge impact long
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: after the election in which the candidate lost. And I
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: think about the Jesse Jackson campaign. I think about the
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Gary Hart campaign. I think about Howard Dean's campaign in 2004,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: where you have a candidate who's inspirational enough to bring
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of people who would not otherwise be involved
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: in Democratic Party politics into the process. And then those
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: people go on to become true leaders in the party
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: for years to come. And I think you're going to
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: see that from Bernie's campaign. You think about the very
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: prominent voices in Congress like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez that have emerged
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: in the shadow of Bernie's movement. And I think that,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: and I hope, and losing is really hard, and it
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: takes a long time to get over, and we should
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: give people who worked on that campaign space to grieve
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: over that loss, because you care passionately about it. But
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I hope in the end, they are, Bernie Sanders and
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Jane Sanders and the whole campaign is forever proud of
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: the imprint that they have put on democratic politics. And
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: And when, it's not if in my view, when we
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: have a single-payer healthcare system in this country, when we
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: have something resembling the Green New Deal, it'll be in
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: large part because Bernie Sanders decided to run for president
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: twice and do so in a way that was consistent
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: with his values.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, on one hand, you know, Bernie Sanders
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: and his campaign ran up against a reality, which is
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: that a lot of older voters in the Democratic Party
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: who vote regularly are or people who sort of newly
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: voted in the Democratic primary who were maybe Republicans before
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: or moderates, so Bernie couldn't reach those people. But if
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: you look at voters, not just young voters, but voters
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: under 50, and Bernie won that demographic in so many states,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: what it tells you is that is the future of
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the party. As things go along, as the years pass,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Those voters that Bernie won will make up a larger
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: and larger share of the Democratic Party. And I think
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Democratic leaders in the party would do well to understand
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: what was driving that vote for Bernie, the issues that
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: he championed, and all the rest. And, you know, while Bernie,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: his campaign couldn't win a majority of people who voted
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Democrat this time around, you know, four years, eight years...
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: down the road, that could rapidly change as the electorate
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: changes and gets younger.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. But I do still think,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and we can talk about this, but there's still a
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: lot of work for the Sanders-aligned left of the party
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to do to be able to realize that potential. Because
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: there are some.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, the.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Fundamental one is the, to date, failure to be able
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to take that left progressive message and sell it to
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: African-American voters. And there is no path to national democratic
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: leadership without not just doing well with African-American voters, but
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: winning African-American voters. And Sanders made very, very limited progress
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: on that over the course of the five years that
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: he was running for president. And I think there's some
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: real examination within that part of the party. But that's
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: not about the establishment. That's not about the anti-Bernie media.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: It's not about corporate media. It is about a fact
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that they've been unable to convince perhaps the most important
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: part of the Democratic Party that their message works, that
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: their policies work, that they can deliver on those promises.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And a real thoughtful, introspective analysis of that is crucial
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: to building on the success of Bernie in the next
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: presidential election, which is hopefully eight years from now.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I'll also just say about Bernie himself, he's someone who
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: believes what he believes and is not afraid to fight
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: for it. No matter what. And I think that's something
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: very admirable in politics. And I'm glad that there's a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: leader out there in politics who does that. I think
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: he got even better at campaigning and debating in 2020.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: His campaign, I think, showed us that you don't need
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to be funded by big donors. The grassroots sort of
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: fundraising that they built, I think, will be with us
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: for some time as a model for how to do it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think he accomplished a lot,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and I think the party is better off that he
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: pushed it. So why do you think that Bernie did
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: this now? Why do you think he made the decision
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: to end his candidacy when he did? Some of his
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: supporters had urged him to fight on until the convention,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: or at least wait until Biden clinched the majority of
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: pledged delegates.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Well, even in a normal world with normal elections, something
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: that was really only a month ago, but seems like
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: 100 years ago, Bernie Sanders was at an essentially insurmountable
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: delegate deficit to Biden. But now you're in a situation
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: where you have an insurmountable delegate deficit. You cannot campaign
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: in any normal way. You're sort of limited to doing
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: live streams from your house. And most states have moved
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: the election to months from now. And you're in a position,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: as we saw in Wisconsin, where if you are asking
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: your voters to go out in these elections in the
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: middle of a pandemic— in what is almost certainly a
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: lost cause politically, you're putting them at risk. And you
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: saw the dangers of that in Wisconsin on Tuesday, and
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: you can only see that repeating itself going forward. And
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I think Bernie Sanders, as he said every day on
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: the campaign trail, is that there's no task more important
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: than defeating Trump. And now is the time to get out,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: allow Biden to begin preparing consolidating and preparing to be
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the nominee and begin the work of unifying the party.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: And I think it's to his credit that he did
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: that because that is the necessary component to actually winning
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: this election.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: So in his speech, Bernie called Biden a decent man, uh,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: who he plans to work with to move progressive ideas forward.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: He also said that he'd remain on the ballot and
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the remaining contests on the primary calendar so that he
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: could win delegates that would give, uh, he and his
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: supporters more leverage to push progressive policies into the party's
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: platform at the convention later this summer. Um, So nice
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: words about Biden, though not an official endorsement, and he's
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: going to stay on the ballot to rack up delegates.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Does this give you any concern?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's stipulate that I worry about everything, but
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I and I do have very real concerns about the
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: ability of the party to unite around Biden. And that's
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: primarily not because that's not about Biden necessarily, but just
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: about how close this election is going to be and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: how narrow the margins are. And so every voter you
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: lose to not voting, third party voting, Republican is potentially devastating.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I am not particularly worried about Bernie's role in that.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I believe that Bernie will take him at his word.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: He has said that he would support and do everything
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: he could for the nominee if he were not the nominee.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I think that is what is going to happen. I think,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: and people are going to destroy me on Twitter for this,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: but I think that Bernie Sanders himself gets a really
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: bad rap for what happened in 2016. He did campaign
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: for Hillary Clinton. Higher percentage of his voters voted for
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton than Hillary Clinton supporters voted for Barack Obama.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: And there were a lot of things in that primary
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: that led to division. But after that primary was over,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I think Bernie Sanders worked very hard to get Hillary
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Clinton elected. And I suspect he will do that for
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden. And because he got out in April as
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: opposed to June... there is more time to do that.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: And so I am hopeful and expect that at a
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: moment of opportune timing for both Bernie and Biden, you
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: will see some sort of unity event. Maybe that's going
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: to have to be a Zoom conference call from their homes.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: But I do believe that Bernie will do what it
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: takes to make sure that Biden gets elected.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I sort of think it's just a logistical issue, really, that,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: you know, When you drop out, it's fine to have
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: your exit from the race be about you and your
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: movement and your issues. And I'm sure he will do
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: a more full-throated endorsement of Joe Biden soon. There were
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: some reports in the New York Times that Biden may,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: even as we're recording this, embrace some of Bernie's policies
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: or at least move further in the direction towards Bernie's platform.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And so you could see Bernie wanting to wait for
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Biden to do that. Before then, he gave a full-throated endorsement.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I also don't have a lot of concern about staying
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: on the ballots to rack up delegates. Bernie was pretty
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: clear in his statement. Joe Biden will be the nominee,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: but I just want to have these delegates so I
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: can influence the party's platform. On that note, you should
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: probably just talk to people about how influential is the
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: party's platform? How important is it to have influence on
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: that platform if you're Bernie?
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I don't want to diminish the party platform because it
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: is something the party spends a lot of time on,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: and there's a group of very smart people who will
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: be appointed to figure it out. But I will say
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: that after we went into the White House in January
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: of 2009, I don't ever recall looking back at the
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party platform for our to-do list. Um, so I,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I look, I think, I think staying in, like keep
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: staying on the ballot is fine. And I actually think
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: it'd be nearly impossible to get off the ballot in
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: most States if you wanted to, um, even in the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: normal course of business, like all these States that have
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: postponed their primary have undoubtedly printed their ballots. Um, And
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's a relevant thing to do. I think
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Bernie's and the Bernie Sanders movement's influence is going to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: happen not necessarily in the Zoom conference call that is
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: the Democratic Party convention, but will be if and when
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden is elected president and how they can influence
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: him both from the Senate and from members of his
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: team who will certainly work in the Biden administration.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Well- So let's talk about sort of the business of
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: party unity, which, as we know, will be incredibly easy.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I did think a productive step was a number of
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: progressive groups, Justice Democrats, Sunrise Movement, March for Our Lives,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: United We Dream, a couple others, writing a letter to
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Biden yesterday, asking him to basically adopt most of Bernie
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and Warren's policies. I don't think he's necessarily going to
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: go that far. But they also suggested that he choose
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: certain progressive leaders to serve in his campaign and his administration,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: which I thought was a good idea and probably more likely.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: They wrote, quote, exclusively anti-Trump messaging won't be enough to
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: lead any candidate to victory. We need you to champion
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the bold ideas that have galvanized our generation and given
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: us hope in the political process. So Matt Iglesias in
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a Vox piece argued that Biden's actually going to have
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: a really hard time winning over Bernie supporters and that
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Biden's problem with the left isn't so much about his
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: platform and his policies, it's that they just don't trust him.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that? How easy will it
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: be for Biden to get some of Bernie's supporters by
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: shifting policy positions?
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: I sort of agree with Matt's point, but I kind
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: of want to disentangle the question in a couple of ways,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: which is when we talk about Biden sort of unifying
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: the party, we're talking about three, there are different groups
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of people people are talking about. One is, and Matt
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: talks about this specifically in his article, is Cerny is
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Bernie media types, right? The DSA folks, Jacobin, like the
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: sort of prominent Bernie Twitter and media personalities. That's one group.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Second group are people who actually voted for and volunteered
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: for and donated to Bernie Sanders. And then there's another
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: group of people that we don't talk about enough when
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: we talk about Joe Biden's youth vote problem, because there's
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: this in political punditry and coverage, we tend to default
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: conversation entirely to people who are as engaged in politics
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: as us. But youth turnout was not up in these primaries.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole group of young voters who probably
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: agree with Joe Biden on exponentially more issues than they
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: agree with Donald Trump, who did not get involved. So
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: how Biden thinks about unity and solving his youth vote
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: problem sort of is around those three axes. I don't
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: think there's anything Joe Biden can do for prominent Bernie
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: media types. Now, that doesn't mean that some of them
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: may not end up supporting Biden in the long run.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: It gets harder and harder to be vocally anti-Biden in
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: good faith when Bernie Sanders himself is campaigning passionately for Biden,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: or hopefully at one point, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ro Khanna
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: and Pramila Jayapal, those people are campaigning actively for Biden.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: But I don't think there's a policy position Biden can
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: adopt that'll help those people. I think he has to
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: make a good faith effort to get Bernie's voters and
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: volunteers to not just vote for him, but also to
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: volunteer and use their talent as activists to help Biden.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: And then there's a larger question about how Biden gets
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: youth turnout up in the battleground states where that he's
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: going to need to do that to get to a
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: win number.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I sort of divide it. into you know uh
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: lefty media and lefty activists and organizers and i think
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: there is zero shot that lefty media will ever come
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: around to joe biden i think they are beyond persuasion
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: they have made that very clear um they don't there's
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: no room for them to be persuaded about joe biden
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and so i don't think that you know much energy
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: should be wasted on those types i think lefty activists
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: um or some of the activists who make up the
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: groups that I just mentioned, Justice Democrats, Sunrise Movement, March
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: for Our Lives, United We Dream, others, people like AOC,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: electeds who supported Bernie. I think those people are in
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: good faith looking for Biden to embrace more progressive policies.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And if he does, they won't be as excited about
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: him as they were about Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: but they will certainly be part of the cause and
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: part of the fight in the they understand that it
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: is also in their best interest for Joe Biden to
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: win over Donald Trump. Um, and so, and I think
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: what they're trying to do with that letter and other ideas,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: they're trying to be productive. They're trying to figure out
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: a way to bring this party together and sort of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: form a coalition to beat Donald Trump. And then we
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: can all go back to fighting each other. Once Joe
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Biden's in the white house, if he ends up, you know,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: disappointing the left again by not being as progressive as
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: they wanted him to be. Um, But I think that
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: they understand that in this moment, it's critical for us
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: to have a united front against Trump in order to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: to win this election. And look, I think, you know,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: my favorite campaign slogan of the entire primary is Bernie's,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: not me, us. And I think it was so smart.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Partly it's because I'm biased because Obama so often emphasized
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: this isn't about me. This is about a movement. This
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: is bigger than any one person. And I think Bernie
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: really got that as well. And this entire campaign, he's
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: been talking about how this is not just about him.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: This is about all of us and a movement to
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: sort of defeat the most dangerous president and to sort of,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: you know, fix the structural inequalities that have been hurting
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: us for quite some time. And, you know, there's an
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: easier transition from that, that this wasn't just about Bernie
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and now it's not just about Joe Biden. There are
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: much bigger things at stake than any one Democratic politician
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: or Democratic socialist politician or anything like that, you know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: we are under a severe threat by Donald Trump and
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: the Republican Party. And that fight is so much bigger
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: than anything that we fought about in the primary.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: What did you think of the list from the groups?
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: The list from the group? So I think that some
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of the policies you could see a Biden campaign adopted,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: like let's do healthcare, for example. Joe Biden is not
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: going to suddenly say, I ran the whole primary not
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: supporting Bernie's Medicare for All bill. And now suddenly I'm
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: going to adopt Bernie's Medicare for All bill. It's just
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: not going to happen. But you could see Joe Biden saying,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: there are some elements of Bernie's plan that will get
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: us close to single payer that I will adopt. There are,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: especially in the Green New Deal, there are certain targets
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: for carbon emissions that you could see Joe Biden saying, yeah,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: that makes sense. It's a more dramatic target than I
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: had laid out in my original climate plan, I could
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: adopt that. So you can see some pieces of some
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: of the policies that they asked for him adopting. I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: think that the more likely scenario is that in some
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: of their personnel suggestions, people to either serve as chairs
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: of his campaign or in policy councils of his campaign
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: or in his administration, it does seem more likely that
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: he will sort of accept those recommendations because I think
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: that's easier to do than just sort of changing all
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: your policies wholesale, which also runs the risk of telling voters, hey,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: all the things that I said during the primary, I
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: was just bullshitting you. And now when Bernie asked me to,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I just changed all my policies, you know?
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there are some really good suggestions in
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: there and some of them are not inconsistent with how
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Biden has talked about things like the discussions around a
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: gun control policy are, very, like, I don't, this is
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: not how Biden talked about it, but I don't think
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: the suggestions in there are necessarily inconsistent with how a
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Biden administration would take on that issue. I think the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: personnel thing is incredibly important because I think it's actually
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: more important than policy in persuasion, right? Like, it is
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: one thing, because of whatever institutional or primary relevant distrust
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: there may be of Biden by some of these young
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: voters and activists, It may not matter if Biden says
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: to them, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, right?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Even if these are things that these activists want. But
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: it will matter if Ro Khanna or Katie Porter, who
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: endorsed Joe Biden last night on MSNBC, or Pramila Jayapal,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: or any of these other pro-Bernie progressives, Elizabeth Warren, if
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: they have a seat at the table in policymaking and
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: personnel decisions and in transition, I think, adding one of
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: those types to Biden's campaign chairs is a very good idea.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Thinking very carefully about who runs your transition and who
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: would be on your transition committee, I think, would go
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: a long way. Some of the things about you're going
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to make a pledge not to put corporate lobbyists in
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: certain positions, I think that's an easy pledge to make.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: But you are right that Biden won, and we should
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: be clear, he won overwhelmingly. As you said, he won
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: by the biggest margin. And Therefore, he should make a
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: good faith effort to try to persuade Bernie supporters.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: He absolutely should.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: But he also cannot break faith with the people who
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: voted for him. And so you have to find things
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: that are adjustments to your policy. And I think climate
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: is one of the primary targets where they should do that.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that are not inconsistent with the campaign you ran.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And sort of, there's a number of, and you
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: can just look to a data for progress. They always, uh,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: have polls about this. There are a number of progressive
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: policies that people like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren proposed.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: There are also broadly popular with the electorate and there's
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: other progressive policies that are not as broadly popular people
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: in Arctic, but like particularly around some of the economic proposals, um,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: like capping credit card rates, doing something more on student debt,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: things like that, I think that Biden probably has more
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: leeway to adopt the more progressive policy, but also feel
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: confident that it is widely popular with the broader electorate.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So one person who's going to try to make party
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: unity worse is Donald Trump, who tweeted on Wednesday that
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: he can't see progressives like AOC and the rest of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the squad supporting Biden He blamed Elizabeth Warren for Bernie's loss.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: He wondered why Bernie wants to keep acquiring delegates, and
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: he invited Bernie supporters to come to the Republican Party.
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: Sure.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: How does Biden and the rest of us deal with
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Trump's incredibly predictable but possibly effective attack here?
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's effective.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Look, I think that there is going to be a
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: lot of efforts from people engaging in sophisticated disinformation to
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: sow divisions between voters skeptical of Biden and Biden, as
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: happened in 2016. I think that is something we have
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to watch very carefully. Some of that will be done
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: by conservative groups. Some of it will be done through
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Republican propaganda. Some of it could be done by state actors.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: But Donald Trump tweeting Captain Obvious statements of stupidity is
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: not it. And I think ultimately, the best way to
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: understand Donald Trump is he thinks he's the smartest person
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: in America. Which actually translates to him thinking everyone is
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: as dumb as he is and says things that no
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: one would fall for. And so his tweets do not
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: concern me. And if you are a political reporter analyst
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: who thinks that Donald Trump can sow division among Democratic
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: voters who hate Donald Trump, then you're engaging some of
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: the laziest political analysis available.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that happens.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: So like, I think the one thing that Donald Trump
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: understands is that a lazy shtick, which is like what
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: he did with those tweets can sometimes be picked up
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: by the media who can also be very lazy about
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: this stuff. Like he knows, he knows he's leaning into
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: a narrative that exists already in the media and he's
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: just sort of feeding that narrative. He's not doing it
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: in a particularly clever way. It's quite obvious what he's
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: doing to us at least. but he knows that it
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: will continue to fuel those stories about democratic disunity.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: It's just a difference between, um, being a chess player
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and a titillating player, which is that he is that yes,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: that narrative, like we are going to live with the
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: most annoying Biden, Bernie narrative for the rest of time.
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Like that is going to be there up until the
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: moment Joe Biden wins the president. It doesn't matter how,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: what Bernie Sanders does. It doesn't matter what AOC plus
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: three does. It does not matter. there will always be
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: a voice somewhere who will get quoted talking about how
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Bernie voters don't want Biden. And that is likely to
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: be completely disconnected from whatever the polling and data says
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: at that moment. But the smart thing to do if
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: you were Trump would be to stand back and let
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: that happen. But when you put your imprimatur of dishonesty
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: and tackiness on it. It makes it harder to believe. Yes,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: the press will definitely cover it, but stories about it
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: that aren't fueled by Donald Trump's tweets would be more
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: effective for his evil and malicious cause.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So what does Biden have to do next? What should
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: be the first few things on his list now that
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: he's the nominee?
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I think the first one is organizational. He has to
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: scale up. He went into Super Tuesday completely bankrupt with
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: And he had essentially no staff in any of the
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Super Tuesday states. So he is further behind organizationally than
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: any previous nominee. And so he has a lot of
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: work to do. And he unfortunately has to do massive fundraising,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: massive hiring, massive planning at a time in which none
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: of his campaign staff can be in the same room.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: And no real fundamental sense of the timing of when
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: you could actually put people on the ground in these states.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: There's a massive organization. We had the advantage of essentially
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: in 2008 knowing we were going to be the nominee
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: back in May. And we had six weeks until we
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: officially became the presumptive nominee to begin planning. We were
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: raising money at an incredible clip and had a much,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: much larger staff than Biden has right now. And so
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: he's got work to do there. The second thing is
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: he has to– is the one we talked about, which
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: is he's got to get about the work of unifying
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the parties. And putting that forward, that's responding to this
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: letter from the youth groups. It's thinking about personalities. How
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: do you get Sanders involved? And I think the other
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: one is they really need to figure out how you–
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: and I know they're doing all these things, so apologies
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: for also being Captain Obvious here. But I think the
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: fundamental task is figuring out how you communicate in Trump's
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: media environment.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: And how you get in the pandemic environment.
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So you have a, you have, even if like the pandemic,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, Easter is Sunday. So we'll be back to
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: normal by next, by the time you podcast on Monday.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: But like that actually exacerbates all the other problems. But
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: even in it, if you were to adjust for, for
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: our normalcy, a thing we barely remember.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Communicating in a general election is a fundamentally different task
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: than communicating in, in a primary because a primary is
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: largely about reaching hyper-engaged voters who pay attention to traditional
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: media sources, right? Who watch Rachel Maddow, who listen to
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America, obviously the two most important media sources
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: in America. But in a general election, you're now trying
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: to reach voters who are not as engaged. And now
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you're taking on Trump. And so figuring that out and
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: adjusting your staffing and strategy and plans to that has
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: to be high on the list.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, first up was sort of
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: doing more television and more interviews and he's done that.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: But I think you and I have talked about this,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: that the next step is if he wants all of
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that covered, he's going to start making news. And you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: can make news in various ways. You can make news
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: by proposing policies or talking about new policies. He can
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: challenge Donald Trump on something. He can challenge reporters to
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: press Donald Trump on something. There's a whole bunch of
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: different ways to make news, and I do think it's
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: much harder in this environment. It's going to take a
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: lot more creativity. But I think that they have not
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: yet succeeded in wrestling the microphone away from Donald Trump
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: much at all. And part of it is just like yesterday,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump did his briefing, and Joe Biden had already
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: scheduled a virtual town hall. Now, Did they know when
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: they scheduled their virtual town hall that that would be
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the time that Trump did the briefing? Probably not. But
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: what it meant was no one saw Joe Biden's virtual
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: town hall and everyone watched Donald Trump's briefing. And this
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: is going to continue happening. We can scream at the
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: networks for coverage, but I don't know that that's going
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: to get us very far. And so it's going to
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: be up to the Biden campaign to figure out how
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: to get him attention.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: And there is a question for them in this context of,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: do you try to go through or do you go around?
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: And it– like it's– it is– I'm sure it is
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: infuriating in the Biden campaign that the networks won't cover
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: his events at the same– at all, let alone near
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the level that they communicate Trump's. But that is not
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: a problem they can fix, right? So– and it's like–
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: it's always hard to get the microphone from a president
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: when you're the challenger like that. That's why– one of
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: the reasons why challengers rarely beat incumbents is the media
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: infrastructure advantage that incumbents have. And that's particularly true in
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: a national crisis that we are in. So are there
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: ways to communicate that are not dependent on the national media?
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Because Biden is not actually competing with Trump. He's competing
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: with Trump and the Cuomos.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, Cuomo is filling the role in the Republican-Democrat
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: both sides narrative, right? And I shouldn't even say it
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: that way. It's not both sides. It's in pox on
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: both your houses, both sides, false narrative, false equivalency. It's
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: just we have a Republican president, there's gonna be a
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Democratic response. That Democratic response right now is Governor Cuomo,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: because he is the governor of New York at a
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: time in which New York is also going through the crisis.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: And then he has this great story in terms of
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: content about his brother. And so it's very compelling television.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: So can you go around the national media? Can you
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: do more alternative media? Can you do more sort of
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: self-generated content, which they've tried with his podcast and newsletter?
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Can you do local media, right? Can you get to
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the people in your battleground states without depending on a
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: news executive at CNN or MSNBC to deem what you
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: have to say newsworthy? And I think– I'm sure they're
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: thinking of all those things, and it's largely a logistical
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: execution thing. but you're not going to win the battle
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: with Trump for news coverage on coronavirus in the middle
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: of this. So you're going to have to, there's going
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: to have to be some alternative tactics and strategies.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: All right. When we come back, we will have Alex Wagner,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: the host of Crooked Media's new podcast, Six Feet Apart,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: on to talk about pandemic politics. With us this morning,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: the host of Crooked Media's newest podcast, Six Feet Apart,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the one, the only Alex Wagner. Alex, we're very excited
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: you're here. We're very excited you're officially part of the
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Crooked Media family.
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: Oh, man.
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: I'm so thrilled. I pinch myself every morning. I'm like,
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: is it true? Is it true, universe? Am I really
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: host of a Crooked Media platform? I am. I'm actually
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: entirely deeply indebted to you, Jon Favreau, for greenlighting the
• 40:24
  Speaker 6: whole harebrained concept or convincing other people to over at
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: Crooked Media.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: It was a brilliant idea.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: As soon as I heard it. Talk a little bit
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: about the podcast before we... What is this brilliant idea?
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: What is this brilliant.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Idea before we get into our pandemic stuff? Sure.
• 40:41
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, we are all consuming almost a sort
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: of like drinking from the fire hose of pandemic-related information.
• 40:48
  Speaker 6: I think we've all become... armchair epidemiologists, which is not
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: something I think most of the country thought it would
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: be circa 2020, but here we are. And I think
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: that the inclination to stay informed is a totally reasonable one.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: And it's obviously a deeply traumatic time for the country.
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: But it occurred to me that we are thinking about
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: this or we're digesting information about the pandemic and fairly
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: singular fashion. We're not thinking about it and processing it
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: through the sort of sociocultural lens. And The virus is
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: touching every part of our society. If you are an
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: actor or a baseball player or a ballerina or an
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: undertaker or, you know, a grocer, you are dealing with
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: the pandemic and each one of you is dealing with
• 41:35
  Speaker 6: it in a different way. And it seemed to me
• 41:37
  Speaker 6: that there are so many incredible human stories in all
• 41:41
  Speaker 6: of this. And some of them are deeply distressing and
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: some of them are really inspiring and some of them
• 41:45
  Speaker 6: are hilarious and some of them are heartbreaking. And so
• 41:48
  Speaker 6: that's what the podcast Six Feet Apart is dedicated to,
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: which is telling those stories and opening up that window
• 41:54
  Speaker 6: into the wide world of what is happening as the
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: virus touches all of us and sort of reshapes lives.
• 42:03
  Speaker 6: in real time. So each week we interview another cross
• 42:06
  Speaker 6: section of humanity. And this week we're talking about rituals,
• 42:10
  Speaker 6: religious rituals, funeral rites, the things that have been disrupted
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: in this time of crisis at precisely the moment that
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: we need them.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: It's such a great podcast. It is a way to
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: both continue to consume coronavirus news, but not in the
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: way that most of the media is delivering it to us,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: which is through the lens of Donald Trump and the politics. Yeah.
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Or, or like, this is the curve and this
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: is how we're flattening it. And this is the number
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: of deaths you can expect.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: I think there, it's like, there are two, it's like
• 42:44
  Speaker 6: a binary proposition right now, but obviously it's so, I mean,
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: I do think it's not an overstatement when people say
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: this is the defining event of our lifetimes. And we
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: have just begun to begin, we have just begun to
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: begin to grapple with that, you know, and this is
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: one way of helping us all collectively sort of process
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: what's going on.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: How does the podcast change when the country reopens on Monday?
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I think it's just going to be like,
• 43:10
  Speaker 6: who is running the ticker tape parade? How did they
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: get that much confetti? Where is the confetti being warehoused?
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: What does the third term of the Trump administration look like?
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: I think, you know, Dan, you bring up a question,
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: which is when does I mean, how long does the
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: podcast go on? How long are we in this thing?
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: I don't know. You know, I do think it's we
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: are going to be. underneath this thing for a long time,
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: much longer than I think anyone has imagined thus far.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: That's a good segue because now that you have very
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: helpfully broadened the lens through which we look at this pandemic,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: we are now going to narrow it back to what
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: we were just talking about, which is Donald Trump's desire
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: and the right-wing media's desire to sort of open up
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the country again. So I read Brian Stelter's very good
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: nightly newsletter on Tuesday night.
• 44:05
  Speaker 6: It comes out so damn late, though. I always read
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: it in the morning.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Gotta live on that West Coast.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: It's great. Gotta live on the West Coast for it.
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: Gotta live on that West Coast. You're damn right. It's
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: better than living in New York City right now.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Anyway, go ahead, my friend. And I got very mad
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: because what I do is I read things all day
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: long to make me mad, which is a good way
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to deal with this pandemic. And in the newsletter, it said, quote,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: some of the biggest names in right-wing media are questioning
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: the official COVID-19 death toll. Indeed, they're suggesting the numbers
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: might be inflated in an effort to paint Donald Trump
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: in the worst possible light. This includes Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume. Brit Hume floated a conspiracy that
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of people with COVID-19 are actually dying of
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: something else, so they shouldn't count. More than 15,000 Americans
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: have died in basically a month's time. Alex, why are
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: these Trump pundits trying to lie about the number of deaths?
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: Because it is a catastrophically... bad thing for the Trump
• 45:01
  Speaker 6: administration to say nothing, of course, of the human tragedy,
• 45:04
  Speaker 6: which is paramount in all of this. But there's no
• 45:07
  Speaker 6: I mean, there's literally I mean, Trump has tried every
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: sort of like Heisman maneuver to push off. Is that
• 45:14
  Speaker 6: what Heisman did to to avoid actually having to take
• 45:18
  Speaker 6: responsibility for this or admit in any way that perhaps
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: he did the wrong thing? And so we've now reached
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: the point, in fact, earlier than I thought we would,
• 45:27
  Speaker 6: where Trump is effectively spawning 9-11 truthers for the coronavirus,
• 45:32
  Speaker 6: which is, I mean, I want to say it's shocking
• 45:35
  Speaker 6: because you think like, wow, that that could not happen
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: en masse. You could not actually get right wing echo
• 45:40
  Speaker 6: chamber to buy into that when they know people in
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: their own communities who are dying. But I think that's
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: where we're at in, you know, American politics. I went
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: to Russia last two years ago as part of this
• 45:52
  Speaker 6: other show that I host on Showtime called The Circus.
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: And The playbook that they were running over there about
• 45:58
  Speaker 6: disinformation and lies as a way to dampen people's enthusiasm
• 46:03
  Speaker 6: and fundamentally get them to buy out of the political
• 46:07
  Speaker 6: process was hugely effective. And I think that this sort
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: of similar playbook is being run here, which is if
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: you can't convince people, confuse them into either submission or
• 46:23
  Speaker 6: confuse them into walking away from the process entirely. And
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: I feel like that's sort of, I think that's where
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: we're at. I think that's what you're seeing.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Dan, do you think this can be effective here with
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: a pandemic where people know people who are sick and dying?
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And we should probably also take a minute just to
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: talk about why this conspiracy is so crazy in the
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: first place.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: Well, if we were to just live in sort of
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Republican intellectual world and just reject the idea of science
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: right now, let's just use common sense, right? So basically,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: if you take the Brit Hume argument, he is saying
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: that there are a bunch of people who happen to
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: have coronavirus who are dying for other reasons, and then
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: we are counting them in the coronavirus death toll. Now,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: he's not referring to someone with coronavirus getting hit by
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: a bus. What he is saying is that there are
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: people who have heart problems, respiratory conditions, other diseases who
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: die while they have coronavirus. So just think about what
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: are the odds, just what are the odds that in
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: the 14 day or so period in which you have coronavirus,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: you just happen to die from your heart condition or
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: your respiratory condition with no connection to the underlying lethal
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: virus that exacerbates all of those conditions. Like even if
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: that were to happen, How many possible people could that be,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: that it would fundamentally change the numbers? It is an
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: insane proposition, and it's hard to believe that they can
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: even make it with a straight face, but I guess
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: that's sort of where we are. I also think the
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: other way to think about this is that unskewing the
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: fatality numbers is the logical extension of birtherism.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Basically, we are ashes to ashes in conspiracy theories right now.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Can you convince anyone of this? No. What you're doing
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: is you're giving a talking point to your supporters who
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: will support you no matter what. You're doing exactly what
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Alex is pointing out, which is you're just making it
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: confusing to people who either do not engage with the
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: news at the same extent that we do, and have
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: inherent skepticism of institutions. And therefore it's sort of like
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: one side says this, one side says that I'm sure
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: it's somewhere in the middle and you can maybe convince
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: people it's not as bad as the Democrats say, even
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: if it's not as good as Trump says.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Well, to Alex's point too, it is showing some effectiveness,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: you know, Gallup did a poll about, um, right-wing media
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: watchers versus viewers of CNN, MSNBC, readers of the New
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: York times, Vox, et cetera. Um, 57% of the right-wing
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: media watchers believe COVID is no more deadly than the flu.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: compared to 28% of people who consume normal media. 71%
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: of the right-wing media folks believe that the media is
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: paying too much attention to this versus 28% of everyone else.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, 94% of people who consume right-wing
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: media think Trump's doing a good job compared to only
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: 11% of everyone else. Those are some pretty striking figures, right, Alex?
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and I would say, look, you would think this
• 49:47
  Speaker 6: is different because it's not like an event that happens elsewhere.
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: It's an event that's unfolding in people's backyards and in
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: their own communities. And their local officials are going to
• 49:56
  Speaker 6: have a vested interest in taking it seriously and not
• 49:58
  Speaker 6: being deniers, right? So that's a point in favor of
• 50:01
  Speaker 6: the truth. At the same time, the economic pain from
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: this is so real and could be so prolonged that
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: that I think people are going to be looking for
• 50:09
  Speaker 6: a way to escape it or to get out of
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: it or find someone to blame. And in that way, Trump,
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: you know, saying this isn't a big deal, we need
• 50:18
  Speaker 6: to open back up, those two arguments go hand in hand.
• 50:21
  Speaker 6: And then that I think is most dangerous, right? Because
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: if you're a small business owner in a red state
• 50:26
  Speaker 6: who's a Trump supporter and you haven't really, you know,
• 50:29
  Speaker 6: lost anyone to this and you've heard about the deaths,
• 50:32
  Speaker 6: but they're not on your doorstep in the same way,
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: you are going to be, I think, naturally inclined to say,
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: let's get over this. And then if you have your
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: news outlets of choice saying, is it really that bad?
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: That's kind of a perfect storm. And I can imagine
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: if this drags on for many more months or weeks,
• 50:49
  Speaker 6: people are going to want to believe that it's not
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: a big deal. People are going to want to believe
• 50:52
  Speaker 6: that the death toll isn't that big because they're going
• 50:54
  Speaker 6: to want to get back to normal.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Well, you can see how the right-wing media is already
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: preparing to blame the economic fallout on public health officials,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: who you know they're just going to treat as like
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: the next deep state, right? Rush Limbaugh said this week,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: 10 million people have lost their jobs. That's not enough
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: for people like Bill Gates. That's not enough for people
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: who want to shoot down the entire country. Dan, what
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: do you think about this strategy? Do you think that
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Trump will get there as well, where he's just going
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: to start blaming... all economic pain on public health officials
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: and elected officials who are trying to protect their populations.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's basically there already, right?
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: It's awkward when he does it with Deborah Birx and
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Fauci standing right there, but it's, it is the subtext
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: to everything he's saying. It's a subtext about the open
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: up by Easter. You know, this isn't as bad as
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: people say he's already touting the tremendous victory of models
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: going from 140,000 dead Americans to 80,000 dead Americans. Um,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: And so he is going– like that is what he's
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: going to do. I think there are some– we just
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: always have to separate out the people who are going
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: to vote for Trump no matter what in this conversation
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: because they are going to repeat what he says whether
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: they believe it or not. And it's not– it has
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: zero impact on the election, right?
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: So for the rest of the public, is this necessarily
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: an effective strategy? Probably not. And there are two reasons
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: for that, which is Public health officials, and Dr. Fauci specifically,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: have incredibly high ratings in polls in terms of who
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: they trust, right? In one recent poll, 76% of Americans
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: trusted Dr.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Fauci, right?
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: So it's going to be hard for Trump, whose trust
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: numbers are in the low 40s, to beat that, right?
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats trust their local officials, in some cases
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: by 20 and 30 points more than they trust the
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: Trump administration.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: This is sort of a little bit where the chickens
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: come home to roost of Trump not caring at all
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: about his own personal credibility, is then when you get
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: in a credibility battle with others, you will lose that.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's gonna be very hard for
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Trump to assign blame on some other entity, governors, public
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: health officials for the economic pain. But that does not
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: mean that voters are naturally gonna blame Trump for it.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: It is very likely that absent very strong persuasive messaging
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: for Democrats, A lot of us will look at the
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: economic pain and say, who could possibly have expected or
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: dealt with this, right? Trump's not great. He didn't do
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: a great job handling it, but I can't really blame
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: him for this. This would have happened under any president.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: And tying his lack of preparation, his policies, the inadequacy
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: of the response to the economic pain is going to
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: be a critical part of our message.
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: The thing I wanted to add to that piece is
• 53:48
  Speaker 6: that if I were the Trump administration, which obviously I'm not,
• 53:52
  Speaker 6: nor will I ever be, even if they offer me
• 53:54
  Speaker 6: that press secretary job, is that there is a piece
• 54:00
  Speaker 6: in The New York Times and the world's leading sort
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: of epidemiologists and viral scientists have determined that the virus
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: was circulating in New York City in February. And that
• 54:12
  Speaker 6: the transmission rates, the community transmission rates in the United
• 54:15
  Speaker 6: States were actually a lot earlier than anybody thought. And
• 54:18
  Speaker 6: if I were in the Trump White House... running off
• 54:21
  Speaker 6: of this let's blame China for the virus narrative. That
• 54:25
  Speaker 6: is a data point that I would seize on. And
• 54:27
  Speaker 6: I would use it to effectively whitewash what has been
• 54:30
  Speaker 6: an incalculably almost criminal response on the part of this administration.
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: I would use that to whitewash the behavior and the
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: decision-making inside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and say, you know what?
• 54:41
  Speaker 6: The Chinese hid this for months. It was here before
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: we even knew it. Only the CIA maybe could have
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: determined what was happening well before December 31st inside China.
• 54:54
  Speaker 6: And I can imagine a world in which up against
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: a wall heading into November, this idea of once again
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: trying to pivot back to outside bad actors as the
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: real root problem of this. And the Chinese, as we know,
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: Trump loves talking about China, armed with you know, some
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: facts from actual science, you know, you can feel out
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: a line of argument there for the Trump White House.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: I was just going to ask, I've started wondering if,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: you know, Trump needs an argument now against Biden that
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: is not Biden's corrupt and there's Hunter and all this other, like,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: because everything is about the pandemic now. And I'm wondering
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: if his argument is going to be as we get
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to the fall and there's potentially another wave of infections
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: that by then, as it tends to happen with some
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: of these viruses, that he's going to say, I'm the
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: guy who wants to open up the economy. I'm the
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: guy who wants to help fight for your jobs. And
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden and all his public health official liberals and
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the liberal media, they want to keep you at home
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: because they are trying to beat us. They're trying to
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: beat me. And he sort of morphs it into this
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: argument where it's Democrats on one side who hate jobs
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: and the economy and just want to... you know, save
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: the sick people and Republicans.
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: Well, the nanny state, the nanny state, the nanny state
• 56:18
  Speaker 6: that knows what's better for you than you yourself.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, the flip side
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: of that is there's people's real experiences, right? Which is, yes,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: you want to go back to work. Yes, you want
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: the economy to start again. But if going back to
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: work means going into crowds of big people, big crowds
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: of people again, And you see that every time we
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: lift social distancing measures, suddenly there's another wave of infections.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Do you really think it's a good idea to make
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: everyone go back to work?
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: And that's the thing. This isn't happening in the abstract.
• 56:49
  Speaker 6: You know, I talked to a funeral home director who's
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: working 20 hours a day. I talked to funeral home
• 56:53
  Speaker 6: directors outside of Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, precisely the areas that
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: Trump is going to have to win. And they are
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: going to be scarred coming out of this. I mean,
• 57:02
  Speaker 6: there are families that are being taken down by this
• 57:05
  Speaker 6: whose mothers and fathers are dying, but they can't inter them.
• 57:08
  Speaker 6: They have to go to the cemeteries and stay in
• 57:10
  Speaker 6: their cars. You don't forget that. That is a seismic
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: event in your existence as a human being. And so,
• 57:18
  Speaker 6: you know, that's why like the about how you message
• 57:22
  Speaker 6: politically around this, I think the wisdom around that is
• 57:25
  Speaker 6: probably mostly out the window because what Americans are dealing
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: with is these are like the basic contours of humanity, right?
• 57:33
  Speaker 6: Like this is like existence on planet Earth. And so
• 57:38
  Speaker 6: to try and counter that with like, you know, a
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: tested narrative, I don't know how you predict any of it.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think he wants... wants to open the economy
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: as much as he wants to be seen as being
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: the one trying to open the economy.
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: He is trying to use his opportunity. Which has been
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: his whole thing. He always just needs to be seen
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: as the fighter, even if he doesn't get stuff done.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what he wants to do. And
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: he wants to be seen as the person fighting for
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: working people against liberals and elites. Now, one of the
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: problems for Trump in this is that the elites here
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: are not Hollywood stars or Silicon Valley billionaires. They are
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: scientists and doctors. And scientists and doctors are to the
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: 2020 election what firefighters were to the 2004 election, right?
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: They are going to be the single most influential influencers
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: in terms of how people see things because they have
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: demonstrated their necessity and expertise in this moment. And so
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: I think this is going to be, no matter what
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: happens going forward, most likely an election that is incredibly close.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: And so none of these strategies or messages have to
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: be universally effective, right? They just have to work on
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: the margins for this to matter. And we're talking about
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: a very small sliver of voters in three to four
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: states where Trump just has to convince or Joe Biden
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: has to convince. And in that situation, any of these
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: messages can work. I don't think any of them, we
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: should expect any of them to, on our side, or
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Trump's side, to change this from a, you know, 48,
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: 47 vote in Wisconsin to 53, you know, 42 or whatever, right?
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Like it's just, we're operating in a very narrow political world.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And I don't, like anything can change. No one predicts
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: in the future, but you have to plan for an
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: election that exists within the narrow bounds of a polarized
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: partisan America with a Republican electoral college advantage. And in
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that sense, anything's possible.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: Well, so let's end then by talking about voting in November.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: The entire Democratic Party and many Republicans want to make
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: it safer to vote in the fall, at least safer
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: than it was on Tuesday in Wisconsin. Democrats in Congress
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: want to see expanded vote by mail, early voting, and
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: other measures in the phase four relief bill. Donald Trump
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: and other Republicans have said they're opposed to making voting
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: safer and easier. On Tuesday, Trump was asked why it's
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: okay for him to vote by mail and not everyone else.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Here's the exchange.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: We're highly critical of mail-in voting, mail-in ballots for voting.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: I think mail-in voting is horrible.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 6: You voted by mail in Florida's election last month, didn't you?
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: Sure, I could vote by mail.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: How do you reconcile that?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Because I'm allowed to. Well, that's called out of state.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: You know why I voted?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: Because I happen to be in the White House and
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: I won't be able to go to Florida and vote.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: But let me just say, well, there's a big difference
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: between somebody that's out of state and does a ballot
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: and everything's sealed, certified, and everything else. You see what
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: you have to do with the certifications. And you get
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of people sitting in somebody's living room
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: signing ballots all over the place. No, I think that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: mail-in voting is a terrible thing. I think if you vote,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: You should go. And even the concept of early voting
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: is not the greatest, because a lot of things happen.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: But it's okay. But you should go and you should vote.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: I think you should go and you should vote. You
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: look at what they do, where they grab thousands of
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: mail-in ballots and they dump it. I'll tell you what,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: and I don't have to tell you. You can look
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: at the statistics. There's a lot of dishonesty going along
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: with mail-in voting.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 6: Mail-in ballots.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: So.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Last night, he seemed to take yet another position when
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: he tweeted, quote, absentee ballots are a great way to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: vote for the many senior citizens, military and others who
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: can't get to the polls on Election Day. These ballots
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: are very different from 100 percent mail in voting, which
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: is ripe for fraud and shouldn't be allowed. Alex, what's
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: he up to here and where's where's this coming from?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean, it's just sort of naked partisanship, right? Oh,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: if you're going to vote for me, then absentee ballots,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: no problem. Also, we have ventilators, masks, all kinds of
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: PPE if you have voted for me or you live
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 6: in a state with someone who is allegiant to me. So,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: you know, this is the true battle. Beyond, obviously, getting
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 6: our hands around the virus is job number one. But
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 6: job number two is... figuring out what happens in November.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: And everybody watched the scenes unfold at districts in Wisconsin.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: And I mean, I had to stop watching at a
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 6: certain point because it was so deeply troubling to me.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: And if that is what happens in November, then we
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 6: are in deep trouble. I mean, on so many levels,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 6: on a human level, on a sort of basic functionality level,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 6: and then obviously in terms of politics and the implications there.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, sorry, what was the question? What is Trump doing?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 6: He wants to win. Initially, when this happened, I thought, oh,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 6: he's going to just postpone the election. And now it's just, oh, no, no,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: this is the last chapter of the voter suppression playbook,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 6: which is let them risk their own lives to try
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: and take you out of office. I don't understand. I
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 6: would like to know what Schumer and Pelosi, what the
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: conversations are in terms of how they do this. Because
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 6: I am sort of confused that this didn't come up.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 6: I am surprised that this is not something they've been
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 6: fighting for earlier and with more ferocity. And that makes
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 6: me worried.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: Dan, one thing I've been wondering is, is the way
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: to get this done somehow making it less polarized and
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: less partisan and pointing to things like, you know, there's
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: five states with universal vote by mail. There's plenty of
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: elected Republicans in all those states. Secretary of State in
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Ohio and Governor DeWine in Ohio, both Republicans, were tweeting
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: the other day about how they're making it easier to
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: vote by mail, absentee voting. Like, do you start pointing
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: to all the Republican officials out there who are trying
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: to do the right thing on this? I mean, National
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: Review just had a piece about how to why we
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: should expand, which is, you know, conservative publication, why we
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: should expand vote by mail, why we should do more
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: drive through voting, expanded early voting. Like, is the way
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: to do it to try to depolarize this or is
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: that just impossible in this environment and you have to
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: fight like hell? Or maybe both.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: I don't think you can depolarize it when the President
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: of the United States goes on national television and accuses
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: vote-by-mail of being ripe for fraud, which it is not.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: There's no evidence of that.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: And I would just, just one very specific point, which
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: is absentee voting and vote-by-mail are the exact same thing.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Same ballot, same process. The only difference is In some states,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: you're required to state that you will be absent from
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: the state or unable to vote for some other reason.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: You're out of town, family obligations, health reasons, all of that.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: You know what's a great absentee excuse? A fucking pandemic, right?
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: And so I don't think.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: You can depolarize it.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: I think you can win the argument in two ways.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: One is, yes, show the example in Ohio, show Republicans
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: and conservatives who have been for vote by mail and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: that it can work is one. Two, and I think
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: this is one of the mistakes that Democrats always make
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: when it comes to discussing voter suppression, is we say
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Republicans don't want people to vote, but we never say why, right?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: And I think that is the connection that we have
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: to make. We have to explain that the reason that
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: they do not want the majority of Americans to participate
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: in the electoral process is because if the majority of
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Americans participate in the electoral process, they would vote out
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: politicians who supported cutting Medicare to pay for tax cuts.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: They would vote out politicians who wanted to overturn Roe
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: versus Wade or roll back civil rights. They would vote
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: out politicians who refuse to acknowledge climate change. Democrats have
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: won the majority position on a whole host of our
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: policy priorities, but we've been unable to put those in
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: place because Republicans have been able to restrict the will
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: of the majority. And so you have to draw the
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: connection between what they're doing and why they're doing it.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: I think that's an important part. I am very nervous
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: about Democrats ability to get this in the final package here.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: And I think this is a problem with Democrats going
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: back many, many years, including when we worked in the
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: White House, which is Republicans are willing to fight like
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: hell and sacrifice political capital for their voter suppression agenda.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: And Democrats have been unwilling to do so to the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: same extent for a voter expansion agenda.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Alex, what do you think are the chances that Pelosi
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: and Schumer can get this in the next bill?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: Like I said, I'm really worried. I mean, I think
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 6: that they're making the choice. I think they optically did
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 6: not want to be litigating that issue in a moment
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 6: of great economic pain, of, you know, human tragedy. And
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 6: I mean, maybe that was the reason, but I agree
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 6: with Dan. I mean, I just think there to assume
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: that you can use reason and logic and sort of
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: the collective good as a cudgel effectively in negotiations is,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: I don't know if that works. I mean, I just
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 6: think that what happened in Wisconsin proves that there is
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: no ceiling or there is no basement, I should say,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 6: in terms of the tactics. It was, I mean, I just,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 6: we should be talking about it every day. And we should,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 6: by the way, be following up with, and maybe we'll
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 6: on the new podcast, Six Feet Apart on Crooked Media,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 6: with voters who stood in the line and weren't six
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 6: feet apart and were trying to exercise their constitutional right
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 6: and got sick. Because inevitably, you are going to have
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 6: people that... have literally put their health on the line
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 6: to participate in democracy.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: I think Republicans, especially Republicans in Wisconsin, especially Donald Trump,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: are very comfortable with using all the power they have
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: and all the leverage they have, even in very insidious ways.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: And I think the one place where Democrats have leverage
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: right now is saying there will not be another relief
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: bill unless there is something done about voting in that bill.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: And We should be clear, and I'm sure this is
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: what concerns Pelosi and Schumer, that if they say that,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: then there's going to be screaming from Donald Trump that
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: everyone's going to hear, screaming from the Republicans that Democrats
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: are standing in the way of economic recovery and relief
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: to small business owners and people who are out of
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: a job because of their voting scheme that they're trying
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: to slip into the bill. And they're very good at
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: spinning their– Sources, they're Hill reporters. When Mitch McConnell decides
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: to do this, and you'll have a bunch of stories about,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: did Democrats make a mistake here?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and how many illegal immigrants are they going to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 6: get to vote for their party if we give them
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 6: mail-in ballots? I mean, you can hear it coming from
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 6: the Trump White House.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: And also, it'll just be covered as a partisan fight.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Both sides can't come together to provide relief for people.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: And you know that the Democrats in Congress are scared
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: of these headlines. And they're going to come. But this
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: is the only way to fight for this. This is
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: the only way to get it done is put your
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: foot down. And so you have to be confident in
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: your own message about the importance of safe voting. And
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: you have to be able to willing to take what's
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: surely going to be political heat, both from the right
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and sort of a both sidesy message from the media
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: to get this done. I don't see any other way.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 6: You think they just got to grin and bear it?
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: I think they have to. Otherwise, this doesn't get done.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: Back when we were trying to pass Obamacare, we used
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: to say the only people who believe Republican talkie points
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: are Democratic members of Congress. And that's the real fear here.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: And it's not like we tend to put all of
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: this on Pelosi and Schumer and always be like, why
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: won't they do the right thing? And it's so important
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: to recognize, particularly when it comes to Pelosi, is that
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: she is dealing with a very large and very unwieldy
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: caucus that includes a lot of people who are very
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: nervous about their elections, even if we weren't in the
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: middle of a pandemic, because they are in districts that
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Trump won or that will be very close this time around.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sure if it was just Nancy Pelosi and she
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: was able to just make the decision all herself with
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: no other things that she would demand this, right? And
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: I think Schumer, if he was not trying to hold
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: a caucus together that has Joe Manchin and others, would
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: probably do that. But we have this very big tent,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: ideologically diverse party, and it makes it harder to It
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: makes it harder for us to do what Republicans do,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: which is to stick together in these moments. Now, it
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean we shouldn't do it and shouldn't try to
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: do it, but the challenge is always harder than those
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: of us on the outside think.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that that's why finding a
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: few elected Republicans, whether in the states or in Congress,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: who want this to happen as well is important because
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: then it gives some bipartisan cover to some of the
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: more scared Democratic members who who might not be as
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: willing to put their foot down for this. Mitt Romney
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: is in a state in Utah that does all mail-in
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: voting and has for a long, long time. Cory Gardner.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Cory Gardner is. Someone should ask them what they think
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: about the safety of mail-in voting since they both live
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: in states and were elected in states where they have
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: all mail-in voting. That might be a good idea.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Cory Gardner actually is the example that a lot of
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: people point to, which is that vote by mail is
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: not As universally beneficial to Democrats as some of us
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: might think, because 2014 was the first election in which
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: Colorado was all vote by mail and Cory Gardner won
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: that election in a what is a pretty blue state
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: now by a relatively large margin.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 6: I think also I think it just bears mentioning quickly that,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 6: you know, this isn't the same kind of I won't
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 6: say it was an academic argument to begin with, but
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: this isn't happening in a vacuum. And I do think
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 6: there's an appeal to be made to Republican officials, Republican leaders.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 6: This is not just a question of like who wins.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 6: This is a question of whose lives are at risk.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 6: And the virus does not know party. And if you
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 6: want to keep your people safe, if the sort of
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 6: first part of your oath of office is to not
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 6: harm the people you represent, then here is the first
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 6: thing you need to do.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. Okay. When we come back, we
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: will have Dan's interview with Stacey Abrams.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: I'm joined now by the former Democratic leader of the
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: Georgia House of Representatives, the 2018 Democratic gubernatorial candidate and
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: the founder of Fair Fight, Stacey Abrams. Welcome back to
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me yet again.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Before we get into a bunch of very serious topics,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: how are you doing? How are you navigating quarantine? Everything
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: okay with you?
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: As an introvert, it has been not nearly as bad
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: as for my extrovert friends and family. So I'm being
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: compelled to do that, which I would probably and otherwise
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: do sometimes on my own volition.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife has pointed out that I've been social
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: distancing much of my life, so I should be fine
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: with this.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's just deeper practice. We're just better
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: than others.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: You knew it would come in handy one day. I
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: want to start with Wisconsin. I want to get your
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: reaction to what happened there on Tuesday where voters were
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: forced to choose between exercising their right to vote and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: keeping themselves safe from a life-threatening virus. So your reaction
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: to what happened in Wisconsin and whether you think that's
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: a preview for what we could see in November.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: Well, I think the answer to both. The first is
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: it was a travesty and it was a naked power
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: grab that shows just how indifferent to human suffering Some
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: people are in order to hold on to power. And
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: I think it's absolutely a preview of the fall. One
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: of the reasons we launched Fair Fight 2020 in 2019
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: and why we focused so heavily on raising those funds
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: that you all were so kind to help us raise
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: was that we knew that the primaries were going to
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: be emblematic of what happens in the general. We have
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: to understand that voter suppression isn't incidental and it isn't episodic.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: It happens in every election because it's built into the systems.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: And because the systems are, because they exist and because
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: we get used to them, those who have the ease
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: of voting never notice the pitfalls and the challenges. And
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: those who are harmed by it often stay out of
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: the process because they are so used to the pitfalls.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: What's happened in the COVID crisis is that everyone is
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: now exposed to the malfeasance and the misfeasance that are
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: embedded in the system. And that's what's getting folks now.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: But it's not going to disappear by November. It's just
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: going to be amplified.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: How has Fair Fight changed its plans and its thinking,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: given the very real possibility that we can be in
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: the middle of continued social distancing and a pandemic on
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Election Day in November?
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 4: Well, first of all, we.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: Entered the process thinking that the worst could happen. And
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: because we live in a state where they have tried
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 4: many of the more egregious efforts at voter suppression, we
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 4: knew that the goal of our organization was to be
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: set up in the battleground states, battleground for the presidency,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: for the Senate, for the House, but also those down-ballot
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: races that will determine what happens with redistricting in the
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: next decade. We knew something bad was going to happen
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: and we needed to understand the contours and the architecture
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: of every single state. What's happened is that we are prepared.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: We cannot stop it because, as we saw yesterday or
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: on Monday, the Supreme Court of the United States has
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: no interest in actually meeting out justice, except for what
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: may or may not have been an accident with their
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: postmark decision. But what it put into sharp relief is
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: that what we do is necessary. We had folks on
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: the ground. In fact, I talked to our voter protection
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: director this morning and he was both despondent about what
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: happened to voters and the number of calls that he got,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 4: hundreds of calls he received, but he also was energized
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 4: because he knows what they've got to fight. And now
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: we've got the remaining months to scale up and arm
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: ourselves for what's going to happen. But the other piece
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 4: of it is this, because it is systemic, We have
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: to recognize that bureaucracy is slow to change. And this
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 4: notion that we can wait until September or October to
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: know what we need to do in November ignores just
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: how hard it was to fix a primary. Bureaucracy doesn't
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: move fast. That's why we've had to change election dates
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 4: and change election processes. And so we know today what
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: has to be done for November. If we are lucky,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: then all of these preparations will... be for naught. But
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 4: if we don't prepare for it, we will have a
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: collapse of our democratic system, the likes of which we
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 4: have never seen.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: What is a safe and fair election in a pandemic
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: look like? What are the specific things you would want
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: to see states do to protect the right to vote
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: and protect people's health?
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 4: First of all, we have to recognize that the safest
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 4: election allows for every person who is eligible to have
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 4: access to the right to vote, and that the We
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 4: should steer them to the process that is the most
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 4: effective and the most accessible for them. So I think
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: about it like this. If you have 100 people who
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: otherwise might line up at a polling place on election day,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 4: you want to sift them out as much as possible
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 4: before they have to get in that line. So number one,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 4: we need vote by mail. Vote by mail is available
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: in every state. The issue is it is hard to
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: use in a number of states. And so we need
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: available vote by mail for every voter. It needs to
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 4: be postage paid. It needs to not have signature matching
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: laws that are hard, in fact, that are disqualifying. And
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 4: there needs to be a clear process where everyone can
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: have access. So, for example, in Alabama, you have to
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 4: have an excuse or in Texas. Texas is a better example.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: Texas requires an excuse. The Texas Democratic Party filed suit
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 4: today to make sure that excuse is lifted because the
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 4: excuse should be, I don't want to die. So that's first.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 4: We need vote by mail. The second is that we
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 4: need early voting to be made safe because there are
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 4: populations who will not be able to vote by mail.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: If you are... disabled, you may need to go into
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: a polling place because you need the machines that are
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: specially dedicated for your use. If you have a language barrier,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: you may need help and assistance with your ballot. If
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 4: you are homeless, you are not going to be receiving
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: a vote from home ballot. And we are going to
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: have a huge population of people who are displaced by
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 4: COVID-19 because not every state is abiding by this notion
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 4: that you shouldn't be evicted because you can't work because
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: it's against the law to go to work. And so
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 4: we have to anticipate those populations. But if we have
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: that 100 people, if we get 75 of them out
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: of the line through vote by mail and 15 more
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 4: of them out of the line because they get to
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: vote early, by the time we get to Election Day,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: you've got 10 people who can socially distance six feet
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: apart and safely abide by CDC guidelines. That's how you
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: create a safe and effective process.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: The Republicans, including President Trump, people known to argue in
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: good faith about things, have been screaming about the potential
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: for fraud in vote-by-mail. Can you explain why that is ridiculous?
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: So if you remember in 2017, Donald Trump convened a
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: voter fraud task force. It was so ineffective at finding
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: examples of voter fraud. They disbanded the task force rather
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: than having to issue a report because the report would
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: have said not on doesn't exist. And that wasn't going
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: to conform to his. His lies to the story he
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 4: wants told about the election that has passed in the
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: election to come. If it is so unsafe, as you
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: all very ably pointed out, then why does he use
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: the vote by mail system? Because he voted by mail.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 4: So did Steve Mnuchin. So is there argument only wealthy
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: people should be able to vote by mail because only
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 4: wealthy people can be trusted? I don't think that's what
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 4: Republicans want to say.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: I think that is their argument, though.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 4: I don't think they want that to be on their
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 4: bumper sticker. And so what we have to do is
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 4: educate people to understand that it is incredibly safe to
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 4: vote by mail if we have safeguards. And those safeguards
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 4: are easy to put in place because every state already
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 4: has them. What they need are the resources to scale
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 4: them up. And that scaling up is exactly why you
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 4: need to start doing it now. And it's exactly why
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 4: Fear Fight was created. We want it to be in place.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: to have the best information and to know what the
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: pitfalls are so that by the time we have a nominee,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: the nominee can come in and scale up the apparatus.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: Part of my background is that I build organizations. And
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 4: you build organizations, you start with the fundamental premise, but
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: then you try to build the infrastructure and train the
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: leaders so that anyone can make it work. And our
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 4: intention is that we can scale this up in 18
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 4: states and we can protect the election in those vital
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: states that are going to determine the future of the republic.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: So Congress is right now beginning the process of talking
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: about a phase four COVID bill. And there has been
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: this debate within the party about what to include in
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: terms of election assistance and security in that bill and
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: whether to make democratic support of such a rescue bill
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: contingent upon inclusion of election measures like vote by mail.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: Are there What would your message be to Congress as
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: they're having that debate? And are there specifics that you
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: would like to see in that bill?
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 4: The premise of the bill is to say that we
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: want to protect lives and jobs. That's essentially what we're saying.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: But the most effective way to protect lives and jobs
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 4: is to ensure that everyone has participation and those who
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 4: will be in charge of their lives and in charge
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 4: of their economy in the next decade. So that can
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: only happen if we fix the machinery, the only machinery
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 4: available for selecting those leaders, that's an election. And the
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: election does not move no matter what Donald Trump wants
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: to recommend, the election cannot be moved from November 3rd.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 4: And so the reality is, Preserving the fundamentals of our
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 4: democracy has to be on par with saving lives and
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: saving jobs because our democracy is this infrastructure that we
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: use to do both. If we have better infrastructure, we
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 4: would have a public health system that is capable of
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 4: actually responding to a foreseeable crisis. And to the unforeseeable,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 4: they could react faster. If we have the right government,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: we can fix the job bills so that the rich
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: don't get wealthier because we have a lot of small
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: businesses that can't access the very resources that are being offered.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: The other piece I would put in place just deepens
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: the saving lives and saving jobs. We have to remember
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 4: and recognize that there are a lot of workers in
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 4: our workforce who do not bank and who do not
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 4: have access to, who don't file tax returns. Right now,
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 4: they are not eligible to receive the resources that we've allocated.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: We've got to solve for those folks. We need to
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 4: recognize that the most economically vulnerable and the least resilient
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: are the most likely to not receive any aid in
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 4: this process. And the only way we change that is
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: by fixing the immediate crisis, by sending resources to them,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 4: and by making sure that voters in November can pick
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: better leaders because the ones we have today who have
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 4: completely botched this process making sure that they get to
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: go home and think about their mistakes while we bring
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: new leaders to the process.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: Speaking of leaders who have botched the process, I wanted
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: to ask you about what's going on in your state
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: of Georgia. Governor Kemp has offered, I would generously say,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: erratic leadership on the coronavirus crisis. Originally, waited a very
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: long time to put in place stay-at-home orders. And after
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: doing that, he immediately signed another order to open the beaches.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: What is happening down there? What have the consequences been
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: in all across Georgia from that sort of leadership?
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 4: Well, my critique of him prior to his stay-at-home order
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 4: was that the issue of Georgia is that we have
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 4: 159 counties. We're a massive state. And some of our
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: counties have as few as 2,000 or 3,000 people, and
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 4: some have as many as a million. And so, yes,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 4: there are going to be vagaries in how people can
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 4: adapt to a blanket order. But the responsible leadership position
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 4: is to talk about that, to say, here's the blanket
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: order that we will issue. And then if there needs
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 4: to be exceptions, here are the exceptions. And here is
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: why we're making these exceptions. But instead of taking responsibility,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: he essentially just lazed about waiting for each community to
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 4: make these choices. And the problem is everything is interconnected.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: Supply chain doesn't realize that it's on one side of
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: a county border or another. And so what we ended
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 4: up with was a chaotic system where everyone was making
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 4: their own decisions and you could literally cross the street
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: and be under a completely separate set of rules. And
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: that was not tenable. So I'm pleased that he finally
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: took responsibility. I'm displeased that he put communities in jeopardy
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 4: by opening the beaches. I grew up in a coastal
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 4: town and people don't call each other and say, I'm
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: going to the beach. You shouldn't show up because we
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: need to socially distance. Everybody shows up. And so today,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: in fact, he renewed the order for the next month.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 4: It's going to extend until May 15th. And my hope
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 4: is that he will pay closer attention to the most
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 4: economically vulnerable. In states like Kentucky and Louisiana and North Carolina,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: those governors have scaled up their public benefits in ways
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 4: that Georgia just has not. And Georgia has some of
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 4: the weakest public benefit coverage. We are not an expansion
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: state for Medicaid, which means our most vulnerable populations are
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: even more at risk. And he could use more of
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 4: his executive power to actually serve the populations that are
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 4: in deepest need. And my hope is that he will
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 4: use his power to do so.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: A lot of people, including Dr. Fauci, have pointed out
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: that the coronavirus pandemic is putting into relief the broader
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: disparities we've seen in our healthcare system for a really
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: long time, particularly in African-American rural communities. What do you
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: hope comes out of our country being forced to confront
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: this problem?
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 4: My hope is that we will finally take action, that
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 4: we will fire those who have shown such a marked
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 4: distaste and lack of interest in their needs, that we
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 4: will hire new leaders who prioritize helping the most vulnerable,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: but also those who understand the notion of government. We've had,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: and let's be clear, the Republican Party spent 40 years
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: trying to dismantle the public system, the public sector. But
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 4: that dismantling means that we don't have a public health
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 4: system that is, again, resilient enough and stable enough to
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: be able to take on this type of crisis. We
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 4: have a mismatch, or we have both a mismatch and
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 4: a melange of approaches to healthcare, which means that if
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 4: you're in one state, in fact, if you go just north,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 4: if you go to Kentucky, you've got healthcare. If you
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 4: go to Georgia, you don't, if you're at the same
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 4: income bracket. And so we also have to have public
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 4: policy that is intentional, not about giving things away, but
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 4: about giving opportunity by mediating those things that block people
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 4: from access. And economic hardship tends to visit itself in
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 4: the same ways in the same communities everywhere. And that
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 4: is you can't get a job because of undereducation. If
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 4: you get a job, it doesn't pay you enough. You
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 4: can't leverage for more pay because you don't have the
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 4: labor controls that you need. We need leadership that tries
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 4: to actually address the system, not socialism, but humanity. And
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 4: that is that we make it possible for people to
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 4: have access and to have opportunity and to improve their
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 4: lives by doing what they can. But we have to
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 4: recognize there are impediments that are real and concrete and
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 4: can be addressed.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: You have spent a lot of time and energy encouraging
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: Americans to fill out the census. How is this pandemic
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: affecting those efforts? How worried are you about affecting the
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: census count and what can be done to ensure that
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: we have a fair and accurate census?
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 4: Much like Fair Fight, I tend to assume the worst
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 4: because I'm Southern and I've been a Black Democrat in
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: the South for a long time. So I tend towards
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 4: hoping for the best, working for the best, but assuming
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: the worst. So much like Fair Fight, which was designed
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: to meet the worst possible outcome, Fair Count was intentionally
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 4: designed to help the hardest to count communities. Those were
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 4: the communities that were not gonna receive the resources or
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 4: were gonna see the dregs of the resources needed. And
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 4: so we have been very nimble. We've been able to
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 4: take our field teams and turn, instead of them knocking
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: on doors, they're making phone calls, they're texting. We are
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 4: working on more digital assets For those who have access
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 4: to the internet, we had an amazing array of celebrities
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 4: and thought leaders like the team from Pod Save America
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 4: ask us questions and we got thousands of responses. And
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 4: so we've been able to build into our program a
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 4: response shifting that lets us continue to touch the people
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 4: we need to touch. We're launching Sisters for the Census,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 4: which is going to help us target Black women. We
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 4: already have Black Men Count. We have been working in
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 4: tandem with other national organizations, and we're taking responsibility for
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 4: being in Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 4: as well as Georgia, because these are states where the
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 4: state investment in the census is either negligible or non-existent.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 4: And so part of what we built was the idea
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: that we may have to be broader than our initial
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: intent of serving Georgia. And we've proudly actually been helpful
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: in Nevada, in Massachusetts, and in Illinois, and we pretty
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: much go where we're called.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: Have you found resistance among people, particularly communities of color,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: in responding to a census from the Trump administration?
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: And that's been a big part of our work. We
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 4: have to dispel the mythology of of what is going
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: to happen because it was the intention of the Trump
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 4: administration to diminish communities of color participation. It began with
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 4: the most public example was of course the citizenship question,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 4: but it also included the fact that he eradicated the 39,000
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: question centers that president Obama put in place. They were
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 4: going to replace it with this mobile unit that if
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: you happen to be on the, it's like waiting for
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 4: the ice cream truck to come. You never know when
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 4: it's going to come down your street. and what time
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 4: you have to hope you've got the money you need
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 4: when it happens. Well, even that half-baked idea has been
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 4: scuttled because they can't deploy it. They have had to
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 4: hold off on submitting the hand-delivered reforms to rural communities, 6.2
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 4: million people. A lot of those are communities of color,
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 4: largely African-American or Latino, if you're in the South and Southwest.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 4: And then we know that they have done their best
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 4: to just make, to underfund it. So The $ 5 billion
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 4: gap was finally filled at the end of 2019, but
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: the GAO has said that it is a critically underfunded process.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: That said, we can still fight back. One, we have
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 4: to tell people and remind people that it's safe, that
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 4: the citizenship question is not on there. The ethnicity questions
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 4: have always been on there and they help allocate dollars.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 4: Number two, people need to understand that if you have
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 4: a utility bill, a cell phone, they can already find you.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 4: If you answer the census, they can give you the
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 4: money for what you need. And then number three, we
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 4: want people to understand that this is financial power, $ 1. 5 trillion.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 4: And it's also political power. It's reapportionment. When they reshift
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: the 435 members of Congress, you can either lose or
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 4: gain power in your state based on what your count
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 4: is accurate. And it's how they draw the political lines.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 4: The lines are drawn through gerrymandering. That means politicians get
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 4: to pick their voters. And if it's drawn through a
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 4: fair redistricting process, it means voters get to pick their leaders.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 4: And that's what we are trying to make sure everyone
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: understands about the census.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: Last question for you. Today, former Vice President Biden became
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: the presumptive Democratic nominee. Do you have plans? You've been
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: neutral to date. Can we expect to see an endorsement
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: from you soon? And do you plan to be out
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: on the campaign trail this fall?
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 4: So on the endorsement, what I pledged to all of
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 4: the presidential candidates when we launched Fair Fight 2020, as
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: well as the promise that we made to state and
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 4: local leaders, was that I was going to be neutral
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 4: because we needed everyone to invest in protecting our democracy.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: No matter who the nominee was, we needed them to
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 4: trust that it wasn't the arm of someone else's campaign.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 4: And everyone was very understanding, including Vice President Biden, about
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: why my silence was important to my integrity. I would
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 4: be honored to be on the campaign trail as a
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 4: running mate, but that is a process that you can't
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 4: campaign for, and I'm not campaigning for it. I'm just
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 4: being straightforward. But no matter what, my intention is to
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 4: ensure that Joseph Biden becomes the next president of the
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 4: United States. We have to not only right what has
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 4: been broken, but we have a unique opportunity to fix
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 4: our democracy. I was asked by someone else, if I
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 4: got to do one thing, what would I do? And
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 4: what I would do is pass legislation to fix access
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 4: to the ballot. Our democracy is driven by your ability
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 4: to get on the rolls, stay on the rolls, have
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 4: access to a ballot and have that vote counted. If
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 4: we use the imprimatur of the federal government to finally
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 4: pass federal legislation that guarantees that to every single voter,
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 4: and if we pass H.R. 4, which will make certain
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 4: that those who are bad actors are held accountable and
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: that The bad actors pay for their mistakes, not the voters.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 4: Then we have created a seismic change in how our
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 4: democracy works and we will be on the path to progress.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: And that's what I'd like to see.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for joining us. We
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: hope to have you on many, many times between now
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: and election day. You're always welcome on Pod Save America.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: Stay safe out there.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 4: You too. Thank you so much and take care of yourselves.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Stacey Abrams for joining us today. And thank
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: you to Alex Wagner. This was fun. Oh, gents.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 6: This is just like my turn at the wheel on
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 6: The Breakfast Club on Power 105. Dan, of course, is
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 6: Charlamagne the God. I've never gotten real about hip hop
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 6: and R & B like I did today. Never gotten down.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: This is like our turn of the wheel on the
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: circus where John is Mark McKinnon.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, was I going to be
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: Mark McKinnon? Cool.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: Oh, you're lucky.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: You won.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 6: You won fast. I got the cool hat.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Good luck.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 6: Good luck, Dan.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: Well, the weird twist here is you're Mark McKinnon. I'm
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: Alex Wagner. Alex Wagner is John Heilman.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: So.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 4: Good, good.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 6: Let me go pop another six pieces of Nicorette in
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 6: my mouth. Guys, thank you for having me on.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: The podcast is Six Feet Apart with Alex Wagner. Please
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: go subscribe. Alex, come back again. This was fun. We'll
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: talk to you all later. Bye, guys. Bye, everyone. Pod
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The executive
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: every week.