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The Narcissist's Playbook · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa! Lisa: I can. Ken: Well, this is gonna be a nice little treat because you're so excited you're gonna bounce up and down like Lisa: Yeah. Ken: a ping pong ball. Or not ping pong ball, those those super ball bouncy things. But you're really Lisa: Yeah. Ken: excited about this, and I'm actually I'm also very excited to talk about this with you. so Lisa, what's our topic for today? Lisa: So, it's the movie documentary Narcissist Playbook. It just came out last weekend. It was an early link that I got because I'm a donor of the documentary. I guess the the documentarian, his name's Mark Vicente, and he's this is he's spent like five years working on it. So I'm I donated it was like nineteen bucks, twenty bucks or something. and you're like, you get an early link and you get all these I guess I was having like a thing this weekend. But by the time this airs, it'll already passed. It doesn't matter. I'm a huge fan of Mark Vicente. I did see What the Bleep, but this was years ago, long time ago. But I was a big fan of the documentary and During COVID, I think the HBO series, The Vow, about the Nexium sex cult, that's what the media called it. He did two seasons, actually. That's right. Yeah, I think that w that was during COVID, so I loved it. I thought it was really, really good and really heartbreaking too. So this is like the aftermath of him basically reconstructing after coming out of the cult and going through therapy and learning about narcissism. I remember him in he was being interviewed and he said he just became obsessed to the point where his wife, who also escaped the cult as well, said, You need to make a documentary about this because you just is so consuming and he thought it was a great idea. which I think is a brilliant idea as well. Because I think it's very much needed and you know, it's so much so that I believe it needs to be like shown in high schools, like that level of need. Because I know for sure if I had had seen a movie like this It would have been very helpful. I went through a lot of crazy shit in high school with like fake friends, you know, abusive family. And if I'd seen this, it would everything would have made sense. And I would have been able to protect myself better. just for clarification, Ken has not seen it. He's seen pieces of it. I tried to get get us a link, to give him access to the link, but He wasn't able to, unfortunately. We he b I probably should just come over to my house and watched it together. They're very protective with this link. even try to Ken: Which makes sense. It's a it's early access, so it's like it's for it's incentive for you know, it's if you do it like a crowdfunding kind of thing, it's a incentive to watch the movie early, but the movie will be I I'm assuming like a a public release in what's it, next month? Or the month after? Lisa: Something like that. Maybe August, September, around there. Ken: Hopefully by then I wa I will be able to watch the movie. Until then I'll just watch the myriad of clips that are pretty relevant. to still probably look into this documentary. I'm gonna cut this out, but like a lot of people are just like you you mean you ever have people just say like documentaries and then documentaries? Like they're people just mess it up and I'm just like, great. No no no, but but but people people do that but peop Lisa: misspeak? I'm the queen of misspeaking. But documentary? I've heard f people say documentary instead of documentary. Ken: But people say that a lot, especially like I I and like that's locked into my head sometimes. Like it it it's either or it comes out, yeah. Lisa: So if it just comes out well would it be easier if you just said the doc or the film? So you don't feel like, shit, I fucked it up and it sidetracks you Ken: Well, I don't even want to say it because it's like, what was it like people say conversing and then some people say conversating. I was like, is conversating a word? Pretty sure it's not. Lisa: Conversating? Yeah. No, it's conversing. Ken: like, yeah, which one's a word and which one's made up? But that's beside the point. Let's you know, so what's the first thing you wanna talk about, Lisa? Lisa: Okay, I think maybe we'll just go in chronological order of the movie. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Just for shits and giggles, when I was watching the documentary, I was writing notes on my laptop. And I was so excited to see it. I've been looking forward to it for a couple years now. I had a lot of stuff came to my mind. So in the documentary, they interview survivors and also actual narcissists or self-proclaimed narcissists, right? a lot of them are like social media influencer types. most notably, this is, you know, going back to the theme of our podcast is shitty parents. This actually stuck out to me. Cause this guy, his name is Lee Hammock, right? He Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: lives in like South Carolina. Really, actually a really nice area. But like really green with trees when they showed it. And I'm like, wow, it's really nice. getting sidetracked. so he has a twin brother who is not a narcissist. And Lee became a narcissist. And they talked i a little bit about their background, you know. and Lee, if you follow him on social media, I follow him on Instagram. he had an absent father. that affected him and made him feel kind of inferior, you know. Why did you go around having children with other women? And that created A g an intense shame because that's what narcissists have. Deep down it's an intense feeling of shame that they will do anything and everything not to feel it. Literally anything. That's why they project. That's why they lash out at you. If you make them have that accountability and look inside and self-reflect with that shame that touches it, they w they will come after you. he talks about that. His twin brother, on the other hand, did not become a narcissist. In fact, his brother works with children, is a very empathetic person. I there's a scene where they're fishing in this beautiful lake and they're surrounded by trees. It's just really gorgeous. I've never been to South Carolina, but it it looks really, really beautiful, really green, very lush. And h his brother goes, this is so nice. Look how beautiful this like taking in nature and Lee just says, the narcissist, You know what makes me think? shadow yacht. Like they just n yeah. Ken: Were we talking about yachts before about I'm not sure? It's like, yeah, who who who has yachts? It was like, s there's there's a function for yachts, especially if you live in South Carolina, there's a good coastline there. Lisa: But it just they're not content. It gives you like an insight that he he's just not content with just being present And that made me think, okay. it it it doesn't address this. Like the movie doesn't say the only thing it says that both were well, Lee became a narcissist because of his dad's absence. But I wish it would gone further in detail and explained maybe because they were both raised differently, even though they were twins. You know, we've talked about this before. No two siblings can grow up they can grow up in the same household but not be raised the same. S yeah. Ken: Mm-hmm. That's exactly the point there. I think with Lee it was like he didn't become aware that he was a narcissist until like an argument with his wife. And then I think just just his wife calling him a narcissist, he was really I guess yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: do you follow him too? okay, so you know, right, yeah. Ken: So Lisa, I've been doing my research too, so it's like that's why it's like it's it's a good Lisa: I'm so sorry. I I didn't know you followed him specifically as well. sorry. Ken: It it's it's very interesting to me because like people that are self aware of, you know, like like a diagnosis or like some sort of personality disorder, which this is, it's to be so self aware that you're you kinda it's trying to understand a certain behavior. Because it's it i it's the idea that I think especially well how popular narcissism disorder has been Especially in the past like five years, right? How aware we are of it. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: It's interesting to actually hear from someone that has a disorder and I guess trying to fix it or try to explain it, try to kind of mitigate some of the negative effects it has. So it's it's it's very interesting. So it's the nature versus nurture debate, which is but the thing is, even like like you said, one sibling might have been treated one way and then the other sibling might have been treated another way, one might and then in in Lee's case, well he became the narcissist, so the brother did not. Lisa: Do you think Lee was Yeah, I'm just wondering if he thought Lee might have been the golden child, and that's why. Ken: It it could be, right? 'Cause we could run through the situation with well, your brother. we talked about that in one of the previous episodes. If anybody wants Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: to catch up on that, we do talk about Lisa's brother. Not diagnosed narcissist, but you know, it's it's he has he has all the indicators, right? It's we don't wanna label him. But it's very Yeah, it checks so many boxes, so Lisa: Yeah, he checks off a lot of boxes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ken: so you get to see it at that case. It's like, well, Lisa, do you have narcissistic tendencies? You might think about it and you know, not a lot of people think that just because they're very, you know, in their own self-interest that they're a narcissist. That's not that's not how it is at all. Like I think I think most people think about themselves and think about their own self interest as number one, right? Usually. that doesn't make someone a narcissist. So Lisa: No. Ken: it has to check a lot of like boxes. It can't it's it's it's har it's easy to self diagnose. Like you could check the boxes. But this is Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: why there's there's therapists and physicians that could do this Lisa: Right, there's a c you have to meet the entire criteria. Ken: for a living, right? Mm-hmm. Lisa: So there's this guy online. He his name's like hypervigilance or something. He's a child of narcissists and he's like an influencer, but what's his name? Christopher is it his handle is like hypervigilance. Christian Van Linda. He actually he said he claims that you've he got into like an online fight with Lee. And cause he asked Lee, like, even though you're self aware, how do you know that you're not abusive to your children? And he goes, I'm not abusive to my children and I guess cause he's going through act actively like doing therapy and stuff. But I guess according to the Chris guy, Lee lashed out at him and like kind of waged a campaign against him. That's what he claims. And I was like, what the fuck? So Lee he's known for being kind of abusive to some of his followers who disagree with him. So just I'm just saying, like, cause he's so self-aware and he's so healed and blah blah blah. You can't I don't think they're even though he's self-aware, I don't think he's a hundred percent healed because they never change. Ken: definitely not. once remember, it t it it takes many years to for someone to turn into that, right? you can't just flip a switch and just turn it off. You can't do that. that's for a lot of things. It's like let's say like just our personalities right now, right? We've had years to hone this personality that you Lisa have a certain personality at the way you act Lisa: Mm. Ken: and the way you think, and I have a a certain way I act and think. Can you imagine if someone just told you it's like, well, tomorrow I'll just change it? Turn whatever kind of thing off. Like, that's why I always get like frustrated. you know, I went to like a GI doctor and he was like, you know what? we've tried everything, you probably have IBS. so what in your lifestyle do you think you could change? And then he's like recommending, hey, maybe should stop stressing. I'm like, right. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Right. if if if if if it worked just by practice, that'll be great, isn't it? Like all my that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: would fix everybody's issues, right? If people stop stressing over the little stuff, that'll be great, but it's like it's someone telling you that. in practice not so easy. In in in kind of like idealized form, yeah, of course. Just because you know you're a narcissist, doesn't mean you could stop it. Because it's built into you already. Lisa: Yeah. I I'm sure he has a therapist, he he's it's like, okay, what is the scenario? Let me tell me okay, you weren't seeing through their perspective or that way, but I I just wonder, with this kind of situation, honestly, you don't know until the kids are grown up and if the kids just don't talk to him, you know he didn't. This whole self aware thing, it was all just a ruse. It was all f you know, just yeah a lot of influencers are full of shit. We all know we know that, right? So Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: we yeah. So that's basically with Lee. It it didn't really give a whole lot. It is basically basically like a five minute clip of him and his brother and you see his brother teaching at a school. He seems like a really really nice guy. And he's like he even says his brother says, I'm known as the nice one and he's known as the mean one. but his I think his brother might be more maybe he's codependent, you know? I that's what I'm assuming. I don't know him, but maybe that's why he feels like he can help, because he wa no one was there to help him growing up, so now He feels like he's the helper type. Maybe that was the role he was assigned as a child, whereas Lee was like completely doted on. I don't know. It's all just speculation, and I don't know enough about Lee. And who knows what he says is true, right? What he says on Instagram and his videos on TikTok. that's where we're at. and it shows how narcissistic parenting shapes. The kids, you know, narcissism begets narcissism. but not always, because just like Lee's brother, it shows it's the the interview Barry I think I'm pronouncing it, Sunnenfeld. He's so he was a director for Men in Black and a bunch of other films. they interview him, and it's probably the most heartbreak to me, it was the most heartbreaking part. And actually, it was the part where I got so fucking angry. And I don't want to give away too much, but he himself, he talks about his narcissistic parents. both his mother and his father. His father was a salesman, you know, a very narcissistic job, right? Doing sales. Because they're bullshit artists. They're the they're the best salesmen there can be. and his mom was also one. so while he was growing up, I I don't know if it was his mom's brother, but his uncle came to stay with him and his family when he was growing up. His uncle was a PDF file. I don't I don't wanna say the word because then we're gonna get demonetized and shut down. But a minor attracted person. I don't know. I ha try to skirt around the word. But everybody knows it. PDF, right? I th yeah, it's become more common. Ken: You could call him a PDF you could call him a PD PDF, pretty much. I think I think people understand what PDF is now. Sorry, Adobe. Lisa: Right. Yeah. So they expose him to this predator. I'll just say I'll just use the word predator. and Barry says he was also a victim of this predator, so were his siblings, and he actually went to his father and said and it and told him this is what's happening. You put this person in who you knew was already a predator and you brought them to live with children. And do you know what his father says? I said, I didn't think he was molesting you. he was just playing with your penis. I thought he was just playing with like what the fuck? When he s when that when that said, my god, I was so fucking pissed. And this is very common with narcissistic parents, they will expose their children to PDF files to predators. And predators, we've talked about this before, they have this laser-like precision when it comes to choosing their victims. They know, especially children of narcissists, are super easy targets because they know their parents are too busy. They're so super involved with themselves. And even if the parents find out, the parents are more concerned with their own image and protecting the family's image and how it looks On them than how it affects the child, which is so heartbreaking, and it's so sad and it infuriated me, to be honest with you. I was pissed. And I could see the sadness in his eyes, like the way he just started choking up, and I was like, I thought I would start crying, but I just got pissed. Ken: Yeah, in terms of child endangerment, I w wanna call it. I've had friends that have gone through that where it's you know, their parents either expose them or didn't believe them that another family member was doing that to them. And Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it doesn't even need to be like a narcissist kind of situation. just the idea that that happened, usually those kind of relationships between parent and child usually never get reconciled. as soon as, you know, the child gets old enough to leave, they leave and then there's no reconciling that relationship because Honestly, even if the parent wanted to fix it, there's nothing the parent could say to remedy that. that's i even if the parent wanted to, right? the child Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: might not even accept it. because yeah, you could see it Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: like some people's lives could be permanently destroyed by not having their parents believe them that that they were assaulted in in youth. And I've known several situations where, you know, the victim never talked to their parents again. It happened a couple times. Every single time they do not talk to their parents. So I could just imagine how it is. It's a deal breaker for the victim. It's a deal breaker to not have your parents believe you. So there's that too. Lisa: The it a hundred percent. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: There's a scene actually where he even says, you know, they sacrificed me for their own needs. And he just starts choking up and I was like, my fucking god. This can be, honestly, like there could be a a sequel to this documentary all about like focusing on narcissistic parents, like the damage that they do and inflict upon their own children. It it doesn't it this is this movie's an overview, right? So you get a little bit of the victim and this, but I feel like you could even go even further and talk about this 'cause this is I this is so fucking important. And to me this was the most poignant part of the film. You know, it I mean, the mo and not to say that discounting anything else that happened because there's a lot of other things. There's a twist in the movie, which we will not expose. We'll we're thinking about doing another episode where we do spoilers. There will be a disclaimer like, hey, we will be talking about all of the spoilers. And I'm hoping I'm not spoiling too much with this movie, but there's a lot of stuff that I feel like I I need to say. And if you guys think maybe this is I I I don't want to see the movie now because you've already given away too much, I apologize. I I just thought it was pertinent to what we were talking about. Ken: Definitely the spoiler part, we're not even gonna even try to reveal that until the movies the you know the Lisa: The twist. Yeah. Ken: that to us we're not gonna reveal it until maybe couple episodes down the line, maybe a couple months. hopefully the movie out by then. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: by then it's f it's fair game. Because it is is documentary, so it's not like a narrative Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: based thing, but it is done like good documentaries follow kind of like a interesting structure. But it is it is public knowledge a lot of this stuff. it's so Lisa: Right. Yeah. And a lot of it is already like in the in their Instagram, like the videos, it like previews. So yeah. Ken: yeah, d I think I think it's a good part to probably list all the people that are like subjects in this documentary, right? You have a lot of people in there. I think the Yeah, Lisa: Mm-hmm. He does interview a lot, yeah. Ken: yeah, yeah. A a couple of them are celebrities. it was like one of them was a actress, right? Lisa: Evan Rachel Wood. Ken: Everyone Rachel Wood. I remember her from what's that Beatles movie? Was it a Beatles movie across across across the universe? I Lisa: The universe across the universe, yeah. Ken: remember that. Because I think that movie came out maybe almost 20 years ago, I think. So I think it's almost 20 years ago. It is, and yeah, Lisa: That sounds about right. Yeah, it was a good movie. I remember liking it when I saw it in the theater. Ken: she was She was very young in that movie. I think she was like a late teenager in that movie, so Lisa: Mm. Ken: you know there was a portion of it where she talks about her, you know, narcissistic relationship. it's kind of like that horrifying like abuse riddle relationship, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Sh yeah, she claims that Marilyn Manson was abusive during their relationship. She was like 18 at the time and he was in his mid to late thirties. Ken: Mm-hmm. And this is public by the way, this is public knowledge. this allegation has been against Marilyn Manson for quite a long time. So yeah, the thing about Mary Lamanson, it's it's it's public knowledge. So this just kinda dives deeper into it, like her relationship with him. Lisa: I think that was the docuseries on HBO. It came out years ago. she and other people, like his exes and ex assistants, I believe, they come out and they speak about Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: their own stories of and also she's also an activist. She went in front of, I believe, Congress to extend the statute of limitations of when you can f file for domestic violence. Because currently, well at that time it was, but they extended it by a few years. sometimes people don't come out right away and they say, this happened to me. It's people just they're so ashamed. They're so embarrassed. There's a lot of, you know stigma to it. Suppose you don't want to talk about it because it's so painful that you just want to block it out and just move on with your life. but I do have some tea that I do want to spill about mis Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Evan Rachel Wood. So I used to bartend and one of my coworkers who was a fellow bartender, she was one of those like hair model blonde girls, but she was about to age out of the industry, so she was bartending. I'm sure she was really beautiful in her youth. I guess she was like pushing forty and but she's like, I used to date Marilyn Manson. And I like, Really? And he's like, yeah, she ever much wood is totally lying. I'm like, So how do you know? I was really curious. And she's like, because it never happened to me. I have a degree in psychology, so I know. And I'm like, wait a minute. If you have a degree in psychology, you should know that people don't come out right away. Usually survivors, it takes them years to come out. So, but I thought I just I just kept quiet and I just let her explain. And she said that Marilyn Manson actually called her, like on the phone, and asked, asked her to like back him up that he was never abusive. And and this was after the allegation she came out with the allegations. Evan Rachel Wood came out. So he wanted people to like his exes to back him up. 'Cause he apparently he didn't abuse all of his exes. I guess he was very judicious with whom he did, allegedly. well, so this ex model, I'll call her, she was like a hair model. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she told him, I can't, you know, I I have a kid now. She had like a like a toddler. And that's why she claims she never came out. She's just wanted to like move on. And I was like, okay. And so we just left it at that. And to be fair, you know, Rose McGowan has come out and said she was not abused. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I'm sure other people We're not. But again, abusers they don't abuse everybody. They yeah. Ken: Yeah, because I think the most famous one was Dido Von Dies, which was you know, one of the most popular ones. It was like it was actually Myra Manson's ex wife. So her relationship with him was I guess she said it was not the same. I think they broke up due to his infidelity and drug abuse. Lisa: with it, Evan Rachel Wood. I think that she was the other woman, quote unquote. Actually she yeah, Ken: Mm-hmm. So yeah. Lisa: yeah. Ken: So for Dido Andiz, I think for her, I think she broke up with him because of that. But I think she was very careful not to say that it's false allegations. Like she's she kind of didn't want to say like he did it, because sh I think in her mind she doesn't know. So that's she ju judiciously said You know it's Judiciously kind of saying that, well, I understand. Like if it's if he did abuse her, that's very bad. But he she didn't say that he did it. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: well, which which is in my mind kind of fine, because it's like not everybody usually has the same relationship with someone, right? Even if they're narcissists. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: some people will just take it differently. Some people don't get abused by the narcissist like that. You know, that's why we get that situation where like especially with narcissistic parents, which is a lot of the, you know, the basis of this podcast. someone's gonna be the scapegoat, some g so someone's gonna be the golden child, you know, there's a whole list of myriad of Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: relationships with the narcissist, right? So let's say like you're a target of it, but your brother is not. So he's gonna say, Whoa, I never got abused by mom. So I don't know what you're talking about. You're probably liar. That that's where we come into, right? Just because Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: just because well I guess you're what was it? hair model lady might have just had a different relationship with him, which is totally valid. But you know, to say that someone else is lying, it's you didn't have that relationship unless you had that first hand knowledge actually being the person there seeing that relationship, right? that's the thing. he's seeking yeah, I didn't treat everybody the same way. So you vouch for me, okay? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: You rushed for me. Did I abuse you? No? Okay, see, I didn't abuse you. I guess if you have a good enough amount of people who just voucher for you like that, then it it makes it seem like, yeah, you you didn't do that bad thing. But then we also talk about someone else in Hollywood, right? what's that guy That Semdi Show? You know who I'm talking about, right? Lisa: The Danny Masterson? Ken: Yeah, Danny Masterson. I always know him as like you know, Hyde because I love Lisa: Hide. Ken: That Sindy show by it by black bad with names. But yeah, like the he had people which vouch for him that he didn't do it, right? the the c yeah, yeah, like the cut the yeah, the Kutchers. The Kutchers, even Lisa: They wrote letters to the judge with a c the character. The good character huh. The yup yes they did. Ken: I heard even you know, the new lead singer of, you know, Lincoln Park kind of vouched for him. Lisa: cause sh 'cause she's a Scientologist, that's right. Ken: Mm-hmm. And I and I've been following her since you know, I've been following her since her career as a lead singer for Dead Sarah, which is you know, I'm I'm I'm very happy for her that she kind of like progressed into like a bigger band. But yeah, we w she was one of the people that vouched for him. So it's so vouching for someone doesn't prove that you didn't do the crime. Doesn't prove that you if not a crime, just abuse. It's it's not like Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: a valid kind of like, you know, panacea for for fault. So we have to view it that way too. Just because someone said that Evan Rachel would, like, yeah, she's a liar. yeah, we can't totally discount that because you don't know their relationship at that point. Lisa: And then there was like a huge power imbalance because she was eighteen. He was in his like mid to late thirties, around thirty-seven, Ken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa: I believe. I I don't. where with Rose McGowan, Dita Vonti, it was more age appropriate. And Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: each were they had their own thing. That's not to say because, you know, I Evermidgewood actually had she had a lot of success as a child actor, especially with thirteen and but still Ken: Yes, it could be it could also be personality type too. you know, I you know, my fiance loves Davan Dis, so and I Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I kinda follow it too. So if you look at just how, you know, Dita Van Dis like conducts herself, like especially in interviews. I don't know how she is personally, but I I'm thinking a lot of her personality is she's very strong. She's a very strong lady. i it it definitely exudes she exudes confidence and like That could be a thing where it protects her from being abused, right? In a certain way. From narcissistic abuse. Because of just her her aura of confidence, right? And then if you see like you know, Evan Rachel Wood, like she's like a kid at that point. It's easier to manipulate a kid, like a younger person, right? Lisa: Much yeah, she's eighteen. I mean you're she's you're f yeah. Ken: Still trying to figure herself out. Like dea try compare her with Dida Vandis like Dida Vandice's the queen of her less, in my opinion. So she's a extremely strong woman. Lisa: And she's a woman, you know, she's mature. She's extremely small. Ken: you see it and she has this persona that she keeps up. I'm assuming it's a lot of her personalities like that too. but yeah, it's like it's like you're you're dealing with a woman and then you're dealing with a kid. So what's who's easier to take advantage of and abuse? Lisa: Absolutely. And notice how if there's always an age gap, like that's that pronounced. It's a huge red flag in that relationship. You know there's gonna be if especially if like the younger one is financially reliant on the older one. they're ripe for financial abuse, for other kinds of abuses. from what I've noticed. I think what I really like about the the documentary is also how it talks about how these personality types they're basically all over, you know, politics, corporate positions everywhere. And I but there's this one lady they interview, her name's like Bandy Lee. She's this forensic psychiatrist, right? And she's been working for As a friends and psychiatrist, in prisons for like over twenty five years, and she says something that's really weird to me that I was like, What? She says, twenty five years ago they would be confined in prisons or not admitted to it and I'm like, Girl, they've been around forever. Just because they're in prison, it doesn't mean they're not out of prison. They are fucking everywhere. interesting because I'm like I'm writing all this stuff down like no, if you look back in history books, they've been around forever and they've gotten away with being horrible people and they've been propped up, and then it cuts to Dr. Romini talking about how we have a history of narcissists that they've always rose in power, and then it has like it shows clips like Fidel Castro, Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, Ken: Yeah. Lisa: etcetera, all these people, and you're like, Yeah. Duh, we've always propped them up. Our society like promotes them, rewards them. Ken: Yeah, I think I th I think what she I thought yeah, I think Dr. Romani says there's like a reward system for narcissists, right? Those are the people that are the most successful Lisa: Absolutely. Ken: in modern society, and even like well, not even just modern society. just keep going back and then I think we have more information about the people existing right now, so we could draw correlations of just how people are back then, A lot of this stuff has been lasting since the dawn of man, so it's just you know, now we just put a label to certain things, but she what she brings up is very true. There is like a structure that's rewards this kind of behavior, isn't there? Or at least if it doesn't reward doesn't punish this kind of behavior. At least not to the degree that we think that they should be punished from, right? Lisa: I I totally agree. Ken: Not a crime to be a narcissist, by the way. Lisa: No, but the crime secur I mean just look at the Epste Ken: Crimes against humanity, maybe, yeah. Lisa: I I mean, just look at the Epstein files. Has anybody been Ken: Who Lisa: who's who's who's in who's gone to jail for that? Literally just J J Gislaine. Jislaine, whatever her name is? Ken: Honestly, let's let's let's wait because I think all the people that are gonna go to jail are not gonna be an immigrant. Do we wanna go into that political landmine right here? goodness. Let's not even talk about that until it actually happens, right? We we all kind Lisa: No, actually I you know, th I'm not even yeah, I'm not gonna walk into that rake. That's like right. Ken: of know what it's kind of a very perverse thing that's going on right now. Lisa: But th to think like they've kind of always gotten rewarded, right? 'Cause if you go back in history, for example, when I y you ever gone to like the pyramids or whatever in Mexico and They talk about one tribe just has to take over this other tribe. Like they didn't just band together and like hold hands and run to the sunset. No. Like one tribe would literally just rape, kill, pillage this other tribe to take over. And the person who would do that was like this psychopathic, the one who was just willing to be like, hey, I'll fucking kill, rape, do whatever it takes so we can take over and over and over, so our empire just grows and grows and grows. You know, you saw that with the Roman Empire. They did they weren't like, hey, let's just like grab a smoothie and like get together and be like, Okay, w we'll we'll just be friends and w co no. It was like by it was by force and these people rose up, you know. There's Caesar, right. Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Caesar was cutthroat, right? you know. Lisa: Right. Ken: But the thing is, it's like there's these people have always the I think the modern interpretation of it of it is you know, being a captain of industry, being very successful, hustle culture, and you know, rising to the top, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: cream with a crop, rise to top. Lisa: No, the shit what raises floats to the top, right? Ken: Well the thing is it's that's what you think, right? But it's we've been taught for years. We grew up in a generation where they told it's like, well, hustle culture, right? You wanna get to the top? Can't be the nice guy, right? Nice guys Lisa: Mm. Ken: finish last. And we've been taught this for quite a while. I think there's only just recently that this some sort of like splintering with that kind of thought process, right? Someone that's very just s sociopathic, psychopathic, or even just like a narcissist rises to power. I think there's actually like a there's a I would you want to even say like awakening of that kind of thing is like that's not a good thing, is it? Like we used to always admire these people, right, for being captains of industry. Now it's you know, it life's a little harder, the economy's not doing well. And it's not just in this country, right? It's in every country around the world. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: everyone, I think is the stress on everyone is waking them up to this kind of personality type. do you really want to be that person you see on television tell you, you know, we might have made a lot of money on the stock market, right? Or or through the roof. That's you know, like our stock prices go through the roof. Because yeah, yeah, the Dow is up to fifty thousand. And then we're like, Lisa: The Dow is up fifty thousand points. The Dow is up fifty thousand points. Uh-huh. Ken: so then why are you cutting fifteen percent of your workforce? you know, don't care. Don't care about the people working there. Because, you know, we need to make more profit. Yeah, what kind of people Lisa: Mm. Ken: thinks that's okay? It was like, and it comes to certain point that where, people around the world are being a little stressed. Like being the screws are turning tighter and tighter. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I think there's people waking up to it. There are still a bunch of people that look at that and be like, I want to be like that. I was like, you know, there's people that love propping up millionaires, billionaires, and stuff like that. There's always gonna be those people. It's kinda like sycophants. But I feel like there's more kind of like a backlash to those people that are, you know, uber wealthy and just uber roofless, right? Lisa: It it's more recent for that one. Ken: Mm-hmm. It's it's definitely it's it's I think it's it's really awakening. If there's an awakening for this because when things are good, you don't question the status quo. It's when things start getting a little bad or even terrible. Then you start, hey, something's a little wrong here, right? And then this is getting way, way more attention. I think this is I think just books and studies about narcissism has been kind of like exploding. the only worry is that some people see this as like, yeah, this is a buzzword. Why is everybody thinks they're a narcissist now. Everybody's accusing someone of being a narcissist. Well, I guess, but it's it's good to have at least studies and dialogue about this, right? Because there was a time where nobody talked about this and that that wasn't a good time either. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I know what you mean, and we can't really be gaslit anymore into believing that it's like, I'm self made and all this shit and then you find out they're not self made. They're fucking Neppo babies. They got a lot of help behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah. Ken: Yeah, that's the biggest that's the biggest lie, right? There's a lot of people that used to go by this narrative where you know what? I lived in a, you know, single bedroom apartment. I spent how much money a week? I could survive with this. And then you realize, yeah, they have a nest egg that they could rely upon, or they got like a loan from their dad, like a million, two million dollars. It's like, yeah, normal people don't have that, okay? It's nice that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: you made something out of that, which is great. But don't say you came from nothing. It's it's that lie. It's a great lie, right? People used to love that story. People still do. People love the American Dream story, right? But then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you figure out, it's it's kind of a lie. It's embellishment. And now people Lisa: Yeah. Ken: are getting mad we're talking about just like people were just mad at Neppel babies, right? that person's a Nepple baby. Lisa: Yeah. In that baby that's another buzzword. But they you know, we've been gaslit so long about the self made person, like yeah right. And that's another thing I wanna talk to you about, like the word gaslight. Like it it goes into that and actually shows clips of like the you know the black and white movie, I think it was in the twenties, it's called Gas Lamp and how yeah. Yeah, right. Ken: Mm-hmm. I think that's where it came from, right? The terminology is like gas lamp, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, he would just change the gas to make her go crazy. But I feel like it should have explained it better because there's so many people I know and they confuse it for lying or they go like, What does gaslighting mean? Is it you're not wait, so I'm not being lied to, but the gaslight it's just like I feel like you should have done a better job of defining it. Dr. Romney has a really great definition where it's just like you're denying someone's reality. It doesn't have to be malicious. it's weird to just give it an example but no definition, which I thought that I yeah. Ken: Mm-hmm. Well, it it yeah. It's well we could we could kinda kinda try to define it. you'll know it when you feel it, right? When you finally learn and you get out of it. It's the idea that it was it W. Keith Campbell, who's a professor who like chimes in on the documentary, right? he said something that really resonated with me that's like, you know. It takes time for someone that's in that situation to figure it out and he figure out like people especially if you encounter this in your childhood, it takes a while for an illusion to wear off. You grow up thinking that a lot of things are a certain way until you awaken and then a lot of the stuff is not true. It's kind of like my situation, right? I remember telling you that a lot of the situation with my dad and my family. I used to perceive it a certain way because my dad would just shape the narrative. And then I would ask family members, family friends, and they're like, that never happened. And as as as we peel the onion, we figure out, you've been kind of put in this situation where you're taught to think a certain way. You're living a sort of, you know, I think what it is like a like a like a kind of like a shadow play, right? You're thinking life is a certain way. because your your narcissistic parent framed it a certain way. So you you're taught to believe a certain way, and until you like get therapy and you know snap out of it, takes a while, right? it there the well the idea of gaslighting, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: A lot of it I feel like the definitive term for gaslighting is You having an emotional reaction to something and you know the person that's a narcissist would just be discounting that or not acknowledging that. not validating that that emotion. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you know, I feel a certain way, I feel sad that you said that. It was like, well you shouldn't, because I didn't say anything wrong. It's that's pretty much it, right? It's like, well, I did yeah, I didn't you're just too sensitive. It's like stuff like that. It's not validating your feelings of I feel hurt. I feel attacked. I feel sad that you said that. They'll just be like, well just you know, suck it up, Buttercup. It's kinda like that. there's a whole generation of kids that probably got that. You're too sensitive, you know, it's no big Lisa: I heard that one. Ken: deal. It's all the response we all know the responses to, you know, the gaslighting thing, That's the that's the responses. Like, yeah, you just it's like Dr. Omni's like things where she like lists them off like one by one and you're like, I got that one, I got that one, the guy got the hot one before. well, it's pretty much you know, it's not validating your behavior, your emotions. And that's pretty much what gaslighting is, right? A and Lisa: Yes. Ken: after a certain part point, I remember you telling me that You couldn't you don't know what was real, right? when your mom you're living with your mom and you kind of I think that term you said was come into your body. you don't know what the your relationship and what's actually real around you anymore. It's like you don't trust your you don't trust your instincts anymore. I think that's what you said. see I do r I do remember things that you tell me. Lisa: Yeah, the whole point. I never said you didn't. Ken: Well the thing is it's like I I yeah. So it's like I remember you saying that and I was like, that's exactly it, isn't it? you don't trust your thought process, you don't trust your emotions, you don't trust your yeah, you you Lisa: Your gut, your intuition. Ken: now you're thinking you don't trust your intuition, so you have future relationships with people and now you're just thinking you're sensitive. I'm a sensitive person. And then you know what the side effect of that is, is like you're just gonna become, you know, cynical with just how the world works, You're you don't trust people anymore. And that's really the side effect of it. You start building a callus. You're not gonna trust anybody that follows that kind of narcissistic behavior that you saw in your parents. That's just how it is. Or at least that's how we view it, right? Some people might fall into Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: that trap again, thinking that, yeah, this is just how I am. How they treat me is normal. I'm just I just blow it out of proportion. And that's how they think. We Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: kind of snapped out of it, so we're like, yeah, we just don't trust people anymore. We're very skeptical of people now. Lisa: And I think it it also sets you up for further maybe mistreatment of other people because you start doubting your own memory, your sanity, yeah. Ken: Mm, and plus you're you're you're perpetrating that behavior 'cause you think that behavior's okay. So you're gonna use it again on someone, right? Lisa: Yeah. I was like, I'm just being too sensitive. They made a joke at my expense, which is Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: really, you know, like a I'm just being too sensitive. Like you end up self-gaslighting and it'll Ken: Mm-hmm. safgal lighting is like a thing, yeah. Lisa: it really sets you up for mistreatment later on in life. And I don't that's one other thing, definitely a consequence of a narcissistic parent. Ken: You self gaslight or you become the gaslighter in the future. So pick one. Lisa: Yeah. Do you wanna be Lee or his twin? Yeah. Ken: It's kinda like that, right? It's like are you gonna be Lee or his twin? Like his twin is just like, you know, maybe he's he's has the the side effects from it and sometimes he might not trust his intuition either, right? he considers himself the good twin, you know, the bees one probably. And then the other Lisa: Mm. Ken: one is like Lee is like, Well, I know this playbook. I c I still can't stop it though. 'Cause it's it's it's entrenched in this personality. Good luck trying to like block that part that's natural to you. It's natural to you now because you know, you spent thirty years honing that craft of you being a narcissist. Good luck trying to like cut that off of your life. It's not like a mole that grows. It's just if you cut it off, it's like a wart. It grows back. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Yeah, the wart analogy is Lisa: So Ken: a thing where it's like the virus is in deep. You call it a virus, it's in deep. That infection is in deep. You cutting it off on the surface doesn't get rid of the problem. And that's like the perfect analogy for anybody that has kind of like a, you know, an inner kind of like turmoil or personality defect, right? You can't just, you know, just one day just exercise that thing away or cut it off. It takes a lot of it's probably gonna take another thirty years for that to like resolve itself. It spent thirty years to like hone it. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, we'd end up like the guy they interviewed, his name is Doug Bugle. So he yeah. Ken: That's an interesting name. Lisa: The guy went through hell with his covert narcissist ex wife. So what happened is like I guess he had a son. basic she treated them so horribly that Eventually I guess she discarded him. She like she didn't need him more. She was just using him, mistreating the son. And after she left him, he was listening to like a podcast or the radio or something. And it described narcissism. And then he's like, This is exactly everything I went through. Like he couldn't believe how it just described like the love bombing and the discarding at the end and the light bulb went off. You know, and then she ended up falsely accusing him of abuse. so it just it's a testament to how important a documentary like this is. and I wonder, you know, he probably grew up with narcissism being normalized. That's why as an adult and exp he even exposed his son, but he seems very remorseful that he ex like he even said, My son told me thank God without wretched woman is out of our lives now, you know. like she would come home and he would just he and the kid would just be like pretend they were doing something else, like run away. You know. So Ken: Yeah. It's even worse it's even worse that when you're the man and you're the victim of narcissistic abuse from your wife, because it's kinda like the old adage like, yeah, men can't be abused. What are you talking about? domestic abuse from a woman? Boulder dash. It's even worse, right? If he comes out with that, like yeah, it's like it it takes so he literally had to build like a case for it, right? It took him like years to, you know, I think he wrote books about it. It's like studying this stuff. It's like Who's gonna believe a grown man gets abused by his wife? Right? Lisa: Yeah, it a lot of these men, they self gaslight like, I'm just being a little pussy, you know. Ken: Well it's yeah, it's that it's it's a terrible situation. you know. just recently, you know, Mr. Mr. Mana Manosphere got arrested with his brother. I'm not gonna say who it is. You probably people probably already Lisa: yeah. Ken: know who that is. But yeah, it's like, yeah, someone telling you you're not a man when you get manipulated by your woman like this. I was like, Well it's very manly to come to a conclusion like that and stay strong, you know, for your family and stuff like that, right? 'Cause it's it's trying to stay strong when people are saying, like, yeah, you Saying otherwise, right? They're discounting that this abuse happened to him probably. That's a bad place to be. Lisa: so Ken, I have a hot take. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I think Johnny Depp, he was abused by Amber Heard. I'm not supposed to say that 'cause I'm supposed to support all women, but I honestly believe she was the aggressor and he was abused by her. And I know I yeah. Ken: Yeah. And I don't think it's as hot take as you think. I think some people are trying to push the narrative that he's he equally abused her, which it's hard to say. it seems that she if it's all the claims that he made against her, if any of that stuff is true, she's a monster. Lisa: I know. Ken: this is a interesting tidbit. past week our podcast has been getting a lot of influx from the UK. guess which episode they're listening to? Lisa: come on, they even have to know their their foodish shit, right? Ken: Well the thing is is like we don't even talk about that in one did we talk about that in the in our ep second episode so our s so people that don't know, our second episode we were talking about the Beckhams. you know, the relationship between, mom and dad and you know Brooklyn. so, you know, with the you know, disaster with our provider, Pretty much we had to re-release a couple episodes. but that was fine. Lisa's been pretty busy. I've been pretty busy too s to record like full episodes. But it's good to listen to like some of the stuff that we've recorded. we've been, editing a lot of the you know audio. First couple episodes were really rough, the audio. so we f so we went in and fixed that. I know for that episode I removed a lot of the cuss words recussing out of a storm, but I re-released it recently, so we have it on there and it's doing quite well. So I think the British people are listening to it. And you know, since the World Cup just happened, you know, David Beckham's everywhere. pretty soon we're gonna record Are we gonna record it re-record anything more about the Beckhams? it seems like it's it's interesting, right? yeah. That's all I have to say about that. Lisa: I think we might have exhausted the buckums, honestly. Ken: You know, it it's not like anything's new come out recently, right, with the Beckhams. I snipped together episode like with a couple little like snippets from multiple episodes about Gordon Ramsay chiming in and stuff like that, but it's gotta release you know, sometime around now. So yeah, that's gonna be up. So hopefully we try to ride the coattails of people what people were looking at, we should really follow like algorithms and stuff like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. So I did want to mention this should be like the first half. I think the second half of our review of the documentary. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Cause I have a lot to say, but if I say it, I know it's gonna give the the film away. And so I'm just thinking this will be like the first half. And the second Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: half will be the spoilers because I feel like I just can't talk about it without giving it away. So Ken: Okay. Lisa: so we can just kinda end it here for this is the first part of the Narcissist Playbook documentary. This is our review and this is part one yeah. And stay tuned for part two. Yeah. Ken: Well Lisa you can well Lisa you can't just you can't just end it here, without like a you know, a palate cleanser. We always do with the palate cleanser. Just so the Lisa: yeah. Ken: peop so we don't destroy the listener's psyche with all this harsh, harsh talk. Lisa: well I think this film is very important. It should be seen by everybody. you know, a lot of film festivals actually rejected it. They said there was no audience for it. these like Ken: Are they nuts? Are they nuts? This is like a this is like a hot topic now. Are they nuts? Lisa: You know, a lot of movie producers and TV producers are narcissists themselves, as I've noticed. So Ken: There a lot I think a lot of them are out of touch. That's really what it is. It's like Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: how many movies remakes of movies could you do? And people tell you that this is probably not gonna work, and still have the kind of confidence to produce that kind of movie. That's some confidence right there, right? Lisa: yeah. yeah, I hope this movie the fact that like people were waiting in line you know, outside of the UCLA movie theater to see the like the premiere. You know, Dr. Romney was in the she was in the audience. And you know, a lot of other I don't know. Ken: Which theater was this, by the way? 'Cause I used y you know, I used to work there. I used to work there, so you know. Lisa: I didn't even know UCLA had a theater. I was too poor to go to UCLA. Ken: which Which one? Which theatre? Lisa: I don't know. I can hear you d I hear you typing. Ken: UCLA has a coup UCLA has a couple of theaters. Are you like talking are are you talking about the on campus one or off campus one? Lisa: Did you say the theater? And I was like, do have a theater? Yeah that's nice. Ken: Lisa, UCLA the campus is huge. It's it's a s it's a size of a large town. Lisa: Okay. Ken: There's probably more people living there than some towns in the Midwest. Lisa: Right, yeah. Ken: In that in that like two mile radius, there's probably more people that live there, like twenty thousand people, than you know, a lot of places. Probably in Montana. Lisa: Mm-hmm, I can see that. Ken: Well, you know, like there's more people living in LA than there is Montana, so people don't I do you think people understand that? Just how many people there are in big cities? Lisa: No Ken: I don't know. I was just I don't know, I was just I was just watching since this is like a you know this is gonna be our like a little palate cleanser, I was watching the World Cup and Spain winning. Taking that picture. Did you see that picture they were taking? Lisa: Which one? Ken: you know, like they're the they were handed the trophy by someone and you know the someone just wouldn't get out a shot. Lisa: yeah. Ken: Homie wouldn't get out of the shot. And then people were like, Did FIFA Photoshop him or AI him out? Lisa: I don't know. Ken: I don't know, it's by this time the World Cup's over, congratulations to Spain for winning the World Cup. Lisa: Woohoo. Ken: Very strong team. I think you know, someone said that there something badly about them a couple days ago or even a week ago that, you know, they're a lost cause. But people in Spain be very happy. I think they're already like they they already took the cut back and they're celebrating millions in the street. hopefully everybody's okay over there. Be very happy and you know for a little while just enjoy that. It's a huge deal. in we live in America, so For us is like, well, what's the World Cup to us, really? We hosted it, but it's like, what's the World Cup to us? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: To other countries, it's like it's the thing. It's the thing. Lisa: It's their superable. Ken: Yeah, it's their Super Bowl, pretty much. J but just think about like a whole country liking one team. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: We don't I don't even think we kinda get that thing in Olympics, right? But that's that extent to the American pride like a national kind of thing, support a country. even the Olympics I don't think is like that far. there's still a lot of people that don't like you know, it's what's the Olympics? we win, we lose, whatever. World Cup's like a different animal, I feel like. for a lot of countries, it's especially the ones that are competitive. They have a chance of winning it, it's it's a huge deal. you know. Poor England, we're we're running those like repeat episodes about the Beckhams, you know. England lost in the semifinals and very sad. And then they took it out on France. Lisa: When here's something funny, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: if I don't know which team to root for, I just go, Okay, which country has the best cuisine? Which one has the better cuisine? And I go, Okay. Not England, definitely not England. No Ken: So not not the not not England. Gosh. They lose by default. Lisa: every time. Ken: you must have loved it when it was like you know, Mexico versus England, right? Lisa: my god. I was yeah, of course I saw that. Mm-hmm. Ken: Guess who has the better food there? Well, at least he'll we lost, but at least we still got the food. Lisa: yeah, we'll s we'll always be the ch world champions of food. So so okay. Well on that note, this is part one again, like as I s as I said, I don't know, I repeated it. But anyways, please stay tuned for part two. That one's gonna be juicy because I will reveal, I will spill the tea as the kids say. Ken: if you we could only just get like a nice little sponsorship from them or something like that. Lisa: We'll keep working on it. Ken: Someone, right? We're not big enough for people to be like, you know what, I'm gonna s plunk my butt onto your podcast. Not not yet, not yet. Lisa: Not yet, we're getting close. Ken: it's it's been growing at a steady pace, so Lisa: I know. We have good views. Ken: I know, steady pace, steady pace. Eventually. Lisa: Alright. Alright, Kenneth. that's it for now. And we'll see you the next time. Alright, bye guys. Ken: Hi.