Latest / The Retirement Navigator / Episode 19: The Average Woman Spends 14 Years in Poor Health. You Can Change That

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Episode 19: The Average Woman Spends 14 Years in Poor Health. You Can Change That · The Retirement Navigator

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Women in this country live 5 to 6 years longer than men.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds like good news.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: But my guest today has spent more than 40 years studying this.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what she found is that the average woman spends the last 14 years of her life in poor health.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: 14 years.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: She also says that that number is not fixed.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: And most of what decides it is not your genes.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is Retirement Navigator, the podcast for adults 55 and above who are ready to make their next chapter their best one.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Here's what you are going to take away from this episode.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Number 1.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: The research out of a Google-owned lab suggesting that up to 85 or even 90% of how you age comes down to your lifestyle and your environment, not your genes that you were born with.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: 2.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: The three things she says protects both your body and your brain, and why two of them cost you nothing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And 3.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: A term most people have never heard of financial caregiving.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: 32 million Americans are doing it at an average of$8,737 a year and 109 hours a month, and it is quietly wrecking their own retirement.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And number 4.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Which says you should stop retiring from something and start retiring to something.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: My guest today is Maddie Dykewood, co-founder of AgeWave, the firm that has been studying the economics of longer life for more than 40 years, working with nearly half the Fortune 500.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: She has led more than 25 landmark research studies.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: She has written 4 books, including her bestseller, Ageless Aging, now published in 12 languages.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And Forbes named her one of the top 50 female futurists in the world.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Here is the part I want you to hold on to.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: She is 76 years old.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: She's still working, and she's just become a grandmother.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: She's not studying this from the outside, she's actually living it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I am your host Kwame Kwade, co-founder of Next Chapter Media and Agent Professor of Finance at Johns Hopkins University, Kerry Business School.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get into it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maddie, I'm really happy to have you on the Retirement Navigator podcast.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I know we've been trying to make this happen, so thank you for being here today.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's great that we finally got this together.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start with the fact that you've spent decades studying longevity and what it means to live a longer life.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to ask, was there a specific moment professionally or personally when you realized that this was the work you were meant to do?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't think there was one lightning bolt moment, although that sounds like it would be a great thing.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was more a growing realization that we're living through one of the greatest transformations in human history, and almost nobody was talking about it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when Ken and I founded Age Wave, uh, that was more than 40 years ago, what we clearly saw was that the population was shifting.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: We were beginning to see less children because people weren't having babies like they did before, and more older people because people were living longer.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that makes a lot of sense.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the mindset was still that 50 was over the hill.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we were like, wait a minute, if you're living into your 60s, 70s, and beyond, how can you take such a big chunk of your life and say it doesn't matter, or you're on the descent rather than the ascent?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I kept asking myself, what if we stopped thinking about longevity as simply more time at the end of life and started thinking of it as an opportunity to redesign our entire lifespan?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that question in many ways has driven my work ever since.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And as a woman, can I just say one more thing?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as a woman, I truly became fascinated because, as you know, women have won the longevity lottery.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: We live about five to six years on average, longer than men.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so we're doing great in terms of living longer, but when it comes to health span, the number of healthy years we live, women are not doing as well as men.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to be one of the change agents, one of the people who helped make that different.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that is what motivated us in terms of as a media company to even call ourselves next chapter media because of some of the things you were talking about.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that you know, retirement is not the end, it is the beginning of your next chapter, and it needs to be planned for in it, you know, with boldness and confidence and clarity.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but you mentioned the disparity, you know, the fact that women have won the longevity lottery, but then there are underlying challenges that you know is not safest even in public policy and how we we navigate, you know, retirement benefits, we navigate health care.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: So can you highlight some of those disparities that you were talking about earlier?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's first take a look at health span, which is the number of healthy years we live.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, on average, a woman spends the last 14 years in a cascade of poor health.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, things like chronic pain, uh, things like cancer, heart attacks.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, these are the reality.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to brain span, the number of years your brain is functioning well, women are twice as likely to experience cognitive decline and Alzheimer's disease as men.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now let that sink in.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's scary.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I have never heard of brain span.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So can we talk about that?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I um I think it might be a word that I invented.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm not really sure, but I'm, you know, my mom and my husband Ken's mom both had Alzheimer's disease.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And just as an example, uh, we attended my mom's 85th birthday party and she loved it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: She thought it was great, had the best time ever.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But the next morning we sat down to talk about it and sort of, you know, do the debrief that we all like to do after a party.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she didn't remember the event.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that scares me for my life and for the life of those people I love.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so this idea of brain span really occurred to me.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: The idea that, well, can we take the number of years our brain is functioning at its best or close to its best for as long as possible?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's make that happen.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, one of the things that we have learned is that what's good for the heart is also good for the brain.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So building muscle mass, uh, eating a healthy diet, uh, getting enough sleep, uh, trying to manage your stress, uh, having a sense of purpose.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we know that these things really matter to how well your brain functions.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna come back to the things you mentioned, um, the five things that you mentioned that help brings but um your book is called Ageless Aging.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it is a phrase that immediately, you know, makes you stop to think.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I I I want you to define it for us.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay and why does that distinction matter so much?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, by the way, not everybody loves that phrase.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: They think it's like, oh, what are you trying to do?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Be like you're 35?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first let me tell you that is not what it means.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it doesn't mean trying to look or be 35 when you're 75, and I'm 76.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it certainly doesn't mean denying your age, it's about feeling better, functioning better, living better as we grow older, which by the way, usually helps us to look better.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So ageless aging is about separating the process of aging from the inevitability of decline.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, our bodies do change as we age, no doubt about it, but we have far more influence over how we age than we used to think.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we used to think, and science told us we were right, that genetics were our destiny, that whatever our gene pool was, that's what your future is.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so you took no responsibility, but you were also sort of destined to whatever.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But today, the most recent science tells us a very different story.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: This most recent science from Calico Labs, uh, which is a Google-owned company, they tell us that up to 85 or even 90% of our health and well-being has to do with our lifestyle and our environment.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So think about that for a minute.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: That means we have far more control, more agency over our health and well-being than we ever thought possible.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that is incredibly empowering.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was at a conference recently, um, and uh Dr.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Vonda Wright, uh, who you probably have have seen on online, was the one of the guest speakers, and she was talking about, you know, some of the things she's talking about about, you know, exercise and and muscle mass and all that.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the thing I took about out of there was that a lot of people in their 50s, 60s, even 70s believe that it's too late to do anything about their health span.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners watching right now, in their 50s, 60s, and beyond, what are the most important things they can do right now to begin to improve their health span?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how I would add not just health span, but brain span.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the thing um there's some things we can do that are either low cost or no cost, and they may be the most important things that we do.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and let's begin with building muscle.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sarcopenia, which is the loss of muscle mass, that can begin to happen as early as in your late 30s.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Think about that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So strength training is essential, and it doesn't have to be something crazy.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can just lift free weights in your home.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, go on to YouTube.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a million videos that show you how you can help build muscle mass.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, according to a recent article in Science magazine, muscle mass should be a new vital sign similar to our heart rate and our blood pressure.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's how important it is.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, sorry.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Go on.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we have muscle mass.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: What else?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Second, we alluded to it before, but that's protecting your brain.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there is no cure for Alzheimer's disease.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wish there was, we can control some of the symptoms, but not the disease itself yet.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully that will change.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: However, according to the most recent science, we can do things to prevent or delay the onset of cognitive decline and Alzheimer's disease.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, what's good for the heart is good for the brain.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, building muscle mass, uh, eating real food, uh, healthy real food, getting rid of all the bad stuff like the uh all the ultra-processed foods.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Get them out.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of all the oils that are bad.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is not what you want to be eating.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, getting sleep.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, there's a really interesting distinction around sleep.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the doctors that I spoke with, who was not only a physician but a sleep scientist, she told me she'd rather get five hours of REM and deep sleep than seven hours of light sleep.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, and and there's a good reason for that because when we're in the deep sleep state and in the REM state, that's when our body cleans out the toxins from our brain and from our body in general.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, protect your brain.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, third, now this one may sound crazy and one that you haven't really thought about too much, but invest in your social relationships and your sense of purpose.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that loneliness is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you don't want to be lonely.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So being alone and being lonely are two different things, and I think we need to make that distinction.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Some people enjoy spending time.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know I like spending time with me.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't often get enough of that, right?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but you want to interact with your friends, with your family, even though the less close-in relationships, like when you go to get a cup of coffee, uh saying hi to the barista.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these things really count.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you know about purpose.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I think that you know, people listen to everything you're saying, and I believe all of the things that you've you've shared, and they look at the situation right now, and I want to highlight the loneliness part because that is, you know, aging in place um is um according to data, is what a lot of people would have to do because of just the economics of you know um long-term care, etc.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so if a lot of people are going to have to age in place and you know, women are living longer, it means that a lot of women are ending up living alone for long periods of time.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: How do they people begin to, you know, career is over, they don't have those friendships that came with the career, and probably your partner is is gone.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: How do they begin to really expand that circle if you are living alone and aging in place?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, unfortunately, this is the downside of living longer than men for women.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that is that they often marry, especially the generation that's aging right now, or have a partner who is a little bit older than them, and they may have spent years caregiving that partner.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just as an example, one of my closest friends um is in her, she's like, I think she's 71 years old.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: She is 71 years old, and uh her husband recently turned had had recently turned 85 years old, but has spent the last 10 years in a cascade of decline.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he had stage four prostate cancer and was lucky enough to live well during much of that period of time, but then he he didn't, and he spent the last six months of his life in he wasn't in any pain, and his mind was still very strong, but physically declining, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then uh passed away just last week.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I mean, just talking about it makes me makes me upset, but makes me realize that this is a reality that women do often live longer than men, and then they do end up alone at the end of life, and they need to take steps to engage, to engage with others, to engage with their family and friends, uh, to recognize the fact that they have a life in front of them that's is worth living.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a great segue to caregiving.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I know that you know your organization, Age Wave, published an important study, a research collaboration with Edmund Jones and the Harris Pol, the financial impact of caregiving.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: As I was reading the report, there was some numbers that jumped out at me.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to, you know, kind of you know expand on that a little bit.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the biggest ones was that 32 million US adults sell as financial caregivers for someone.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the word financial caregiving is also a new word I'm learning today.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So can you really highlight what that means and the fact that you know it is not just money, financial caregiving has many layers to it?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we just finished the study on financial caregiving, and one of the most important things about this research is it's among the very first major studies to take a very deep dive specifically into financial caregiving.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Who's doing it?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: How long does it last?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've studied caregiving itself, I mean, is a huge subject.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for decades, uh we've spoken, we've spoken about it, we've thought about it, we've really focused in on the physical, the emotional responsibilities of caregiving.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And these things are incredibly important.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: But and this is a pretty big but, what's been largely overlooked is the enormous financial responsibility that often comes along caring for someone we love.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So financial caregiving is something that is hiding in plain sight, it's underreported, underrecognized, often invisible, and yet, as you pointed out, it affects 32 million Americans.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So just to put it into a context, our research, I think, was pretty groundbreaking.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can't say it, but it was it.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was very groundbreaking because it really dug into the subject of financial gear caregiving.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And not only did we find that there's 32 million Americans paying for financial caregiving, uh, we found out that it's not just occasionally helping mom pay a bill.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's about who contributes out of pocket.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, an average financial caregiver contributes over$8,737 a year on average.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: That is a huge, huge amount.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they do it without even recognizing or thinking about what they're doing.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: They also devote, and this is a scary statistic, an average of 109 hours a month to their responsibilities, to their financial caregiving responsibilities.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an enormous commitment of time, of money, of emotional energy.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you say that 73% of financial caregivers also hold a job.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that brings me to the sandwich generation.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is a huge responsibility that is not being highlighted, where you're caring for your own kids and you're also caring for aging parents.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And not only is there time, commitment, emotional commitment, but you were mentioning also the financial commitment.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: What are the things that we're missing about the sandwich generation and the challenges that they are under, especially the financial and emotional challenges that they face?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And also the paradox of like, you know, you care for this person, you love your loved one, you want to see them in a good situation, but at the same time, you have your own family to care for.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And some probably we deal with younger kids that they so it's kind of like being pulled into a different direction.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's what you're what you're alluding to is a huge, huge issue.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that financial caregiving is something that we don't necessarily talk about in terms of retirement security.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big issue.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And let me add another level.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: When we there's something that we found, we gave it a name, we called the generosity paradox, uh, that is a huge issue that affects the sandwich generation, it affects caregivers in general, especially in terms of younger caregivers.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something to keep in mind.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um this generosity paradox, it is a huge deal.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: 87% of financial caregivers say they don't want to become a burden to their families, yet 81% of them are willing to sacrifice their own financial security to care for someone they love.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the sandwich generation and you are financially sacrificing your own future, what's going to happen to your kids?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really a scary thing.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I would also say that one of the things that we focus on when we talk about multi-generational financial well-being is that there's going to be this big financial wealth transfer that takes place over the coming years.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there is over$100 million.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: The number is different for everyone.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you hear such different numbers, it's crazy.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what you don't hear about is this financial caregiving that younger generations, often the sandwich generation, are providing financial care for their parents and putting their own life in jeopardy.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and and one of the things that you you highlighted, which was a number that also jumped out at me, was that you know, men and women also contribute differently towards um caregiving, you know, with the average um 118 hours a month compared to for women, compared to 98 for men, and are likely to pause or reduce their own savings.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I wanna I wanna talk about the consequences.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: So somebody that you know missed retirement savings, we know for a fact that people who uh leave the workforce to go care for somebody are missing out not only on their own financial security, but also it affects their retirement contribution with social security and then eventually leads to a smaller check.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any policy recommendations that you you you you guys are thinking about or proposing that you know politicians or policymakers can begin to look at this because I don't think the problem is gonna get any better.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like if anything, the demographics show that it's gonna get worse.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so a huge population of the people are going to be have to sacrifice a lot and then have to then pay a negative penalty at the end where their own retirement security is in jeopardy.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me begin by saying we can't talk about retirement security without talking about financial caregiving.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we can't solve a problem we haven't made visible to people.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm hoping that financial caregiving with our study begins to finally get the attention it deserves.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'm not an expert on policy at all, but I do think that policymakers need to be aware of the fact that women and men are both taking time out of the workforce, which not only you pointed out, it affects their social security, also affects their pensions, also affects their career path.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe they're missing out on promotions, uh, maybe they're gone so long uh financially caregiving and providing other kinds of care, especially women, uh, that they're no longer relevant to the workforce.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a scary set of dynamics.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would think that financial caregiving, first of all, we've got to become aware of it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we need to realize that caregiving is an act of love, but it has a very steep price tag.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that people are willing to, because they their loved ones are so they care so much about them that they're willing to sacrifice their own financial future for someone else.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, that's not a great idea.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a great idea at all because then you're just passing on the problem to your own children.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people do it out of obligation and a sense of love for the alive one that they feel like they have to do it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that that brings me to I have three more questions for you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: The first one is you know, the financial reality of living longer.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, generally every data you see just shows that we as a population are living longer, both men and women.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And whether we are living well longer, that's a separate topic, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll we're we're living longer.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: So most people are not planning financially for that, you know, kind of retirement that looks like 25, 30, even 40 years for some people.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are you seeing um regarding this?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And what should people be thinking about?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody that's listening right now, that is in their 50s, 60s, and looking at a long retirement, is there anything they can do or is it too late?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not too late.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, it's better if you prepare in advance and make some plans, not just financial plans, but life plans, but it's never too late.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've gotten this whole idea of retirement, maybe a little bit backwards.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for generations, we've thought about retirement as what you stop doing.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you stop working, you stop contributing professionally, you step away from the role that has literally created your identity.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: But as we're living longer than ever before, and we see many people, as you pointed out, spending 20, 30 years in retirement, we need to say, no, we're not retiring from something, we're retiring to something.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it's going to be different for everyone.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's mentoring, maybe it's volunteering, maybe it's starting a new business or going back to work or learning something new or just traveling and having a good time.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's going to be, it takes different forms, and that's both a challenge and an opportunity.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, purpose is in there too, right?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think that you know, the mindset has been set that, you know, how often do we not hear somebody say, Oh, I cannot wait to retire so that I can have the time to myself and do and then they retire and they realize that they don't have, you know, they have so much time on their hands, they have more to give, but they don't know where to channel that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it also comes, you know, with permission, you're giving yourself permission to go on a another journey.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you could have a whole career, you know, uh a second career, and people don't think about it that way because they feel like they have to slow down, it is they have to wind down.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about purpose in in retirement, you know, because you're retiring to something, then you have to have purpose for that something.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you find that purpose?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I want to just say something.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I do not think of you know hitting 50, 60, 70 is necessarily a winding down.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is one of the challenges we have as a society.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're so ageous that we think that as you get older you're you're going on a descent, not an ascent.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's long-minded, and it's a societal shift that we've got to make.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just because you hit a certain age doesn't mean you lose your sense of ambition, for instance.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I I know people who are in their 70s and 80s who are more curious, more engaged, more ambitious than they were when they were younger.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I know in my own life, I'm 76, I said that already.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not interested in retiring from my curiosity, my contribution from enjoying life.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just no, that sounds terrible to me.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been studying this whole subject of aging, longevity, the new retirement uh for, as you mentioned earlier, for more than 40 years.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm actually living it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm still working, I'm still writing, I'm still learning, and I'm finding new sources of joy.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just as an example, I um recently became a grandmother, which has added a whole thank you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know, super exciting.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have a six-month grandson, Theo.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: He lives in Shanghai, and I live in California, but we've already seen each other four times in six months.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, which and they're here for the holidays.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I've just been loving every minute of it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that points to a very important thing about purpose.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want to correct one idea about purpose.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: We think purpose is a nice to have, not a have to have.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a have to have, it's biologically necessary.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, why do you why do I say that?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I say it because we know that having a sense of purpose, science tells us that it can actually increase the gray matter in your brain.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing all by itself.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you're thinking, okay, do I have to like start a business or you know, do something big, start a nonprofit?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, there's two kinds of purpose.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's purpose with a big P, there's purpose with a little P, and they both matter.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: So with a big P, that is like let's start a new company, let's go back to work, let's start a nonprofit.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: But purpose with a little pee might be taking your dog for a walk in the morning, um, making sure your spouse partner is staying healthy.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe it's taking care of your grandkids, and I know that's a big one for a lot of people.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the point is purpose doesn't have to be world-changing, it can be the simple things in life that you enjoy that gives you a feel, a reason to wake up in the morning.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, that's that's great.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so, you know, my I think you've given us a lot of things to think about today.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, brain span is a terminology I'm hearing today, ageless aging, financial caregiving.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the biggest thing I've taken away from this is that we have to retire to something and not from something.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, is there anything that you wanted to talk about today that I haven't asked you about, or is there anything you want to share with the audience that I haven't mentioned?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, one thing that pertains to retirement and to financial caregiving, and that is stop planning only for how long you might live.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Start planning for the life you actually want to live and have the tough conversations, uh, whether it be about caregiving or end of life or what you want in the next phase of your life.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah, you gotta do that.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sit down with someone you love, have a conversation, a hard conversation about your future, because that will make your future brighter.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: It really will help you increase your health span, your brain span, and maybe even your wealth span, which is the number of years you have enough money to live on, which is also very important.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me keep in mind it's not just about money, it, but it's important.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it so when you have these conversations, talk about health, um, talk about caregiving, uh, talk about end of life, talk about the things that keep you up at night, and just sharing them with someone else will make you feel better.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, these are what I think of as life plans.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're the beginnings of developing a life plan.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Personally, I think the greatest gift of longevity isn't simply adding more years, it's adding more possibilities.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's really a gift.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, no, that's well said.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, Maddie, it's been really, really wonderful having you here.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: You've given me a lot of things to go back and look into and research, but to my audience, I think you've added a lot of depth to our understanding of longevity, of health span, of brain span.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so thank you so much for being with us today.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is my pleasure.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: To my listeners, thank you for joining me today.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think Maddie has given us a lot to think about.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: For me, a couple of things jumped out at me.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: The idea that what is good for the heart is good for the brain, is a framework that I'm going to be using because it makes that very easy to process the whole idea of brain span.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then she also talked about financial caregiving, which is groundbreaking research about the financial cost of caregiving, and I think that there are a lot of policy implications there, but at least they have gotten the conversation started by doing the research, and then finally, the whole idea of health span and longevity, living longer, but living well longer.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, I hope that you found this helpful.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I want to encourage you to subscribe to our podcast so that you would not miss future episodes.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: And remember, as we've always said, retirement is not the end, it is the beginning of your next chapter.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: And as Maddie said today, you should be retiring to something and not from something.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: See you in the next episode.