Latest / Monero Talk / What Would Ayn Rand Think About Monero? w/ Deki Zedd | EPI 355

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What Would Ayn Rand Think About Monero? w/ Deki Zedd | EPI 355 · Monero Talk

• Doug All right. Good morning on my end. Good morning, Deki. How's it going, man? Deki Hello, good morning. I'm doing well thanks. How are you? How's your day? Doug Good, man. Well, just just kind of started. I had a little bit of a rough night with the with the baby last night. But all's good. All's good. It's a beautiful day here in New York. Hot, hot summer day, July 4th Eve. Good times. No complaints on my end. Actually, it's all good stuff. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. Deki Sounds enviable, so Doug You're on a different side of the planet right now, obviously, and not quite as warm, right? Deki No, yeah, it's um, it's our version of winter here in Australia, which is it's cold for us But probably not cold for for you guys over there Doug Yeah, New York gets, gets pretty wicked winters and pretty wicked summers, man. We get, we get both extremes here. Um, I don't know. It's New York's a tough place, but the summers are nice when it's, when it's going well, well then it gets like too hot. It gets really muggy. Deki I've been there during summer and um it does get quite they'll get quite humid actually it does Doug experienced so you gotta make your way to the beach so decki what's going on man introduce yourself I just came across you I was going through the Monero con schedule seeing who was talking there obviously a lot of names that I've recognized people I've seen give talks was for and yours popped out and I saw oh somebody giving a talk on an rant and her philosophies and how she may think she would have may have thought about crypto I thought that was that was interesting I wasn't able to watch the talk because I missed it I was doing the pork fest thing I tried to go back and find it but I don't think they have the talks up yet for Monero con but I did check out your presentation I was able to take a look at your slides and I was like let me let me reach out to this guy let me get this guy let me get this guy out Monero talk so I guess first and foremost why don't you give it give us a little bit of a intro a little bit background who is decki why was the app Monero con why is he talking about an rant story Deki Yeah, well, I I come from a tech background. So I work I worked as a electrical hardware engineer worked in software So that's sort of my expertise and background but I've always had an interest in philosophy and privacy and that sort of led me to My favorite philosopher who is Ayn Rand You know, I've always just been I guess enamored and passionate about her writings and her ideas And I've kind of just sort of developed, you know up until now this like lifelong fascination and interest with her and I You know I've always sort of had my sort of feet in like a few sort of online communities and like Manera was one of them and I've always wanted to go to like a crypto related conference and I found out, you know, Monericon is happening this year So I'm like, okay, why not? I'll go to the conference and I saw there was a call out for more speakers for the conference and I Thought you know, what could I possibly present? I'll talk about because I'm not involved in any crypto projects so then I figured actually I'll talk about Ayn Rand and philosophy and how it connects the crypto and Here I am Doug Very cool, very cool. I think it's good to kind of get back to our roots, kind of remind ourselves why we're all here in the first place, what crypto is supposed to be about. Obviously everybody has their own interpretations, but I think it's pretty fair to say Satoshi created Bitcoin with some basic philosophies in mind. Obviously I think he strongly believed in property rights. I think it's pretty fair to say he was a libertarian, if not an agarist or anarchist. I think that's pretty fair to say. Deki Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. I think you need to have some sense of a philosophical understanding to be able to establish something of the scale of Bitcoin, at least back then, when it came about. And I, yeah, like I talked about that in my presentation, it's like, you know, why, why is philosophy important? It's, you know, it, like, not only defines your life, but it also defines movements and revolutions. And, you know, without, without that coherent philosophy, then, you know, you risk inconsistency, your collapse, whether it's, you know, your own life or the actual movement itself. Doug So you said an Rand is your favorite philosopher Were you an an Rand fan before you got into crypto or was it through crypto that you started getting into libertarian philosophy? Um Deki It was before, definitely before crypto, that I came across Ayn Rand. I mean, I'd always sort of known about those existence and sort of knew it was always there, but I never sort of fully went down that rabbit hole, I guess you could say. It always started with Ayn Rand and then sort of pivoted into cryptocurrency. Doug around when did you get into crypto about? Obviously, you don't need to give us exact details, but kind of what was your trajectory? Deki I would say, like, actually about 10 years ago when I finished my university degree, the very last unit elective that I did at university, it was a cryptography elective, and I just found it so fascinating that it sort of like started from there, I'm like, you know, I find this theoretical stuff interesting, how does it apply to the actual, like, real world applications that cryptocurrency has become. So let's say around then. Doug Okay. That's been a while. Ten years is a long time. And crypto time, for sure. Deki I mean, yeah, it definitely is a long time. I mean, I like, I didn't really go into the deep end. It was just more of like a slow, gradual introduction to like, what, you know, what is this all about? And so I'd sort of, yeah, I'd say like that's sort of how it all began. Doug And so when you got into crypto and you already had the Ayn Rand background and this interesting philosophy Did Bitcoin hit you like like was there like a eureka like oh wow look at it look at this thing Look what it's capable of doing look what they figured out. They figured out you know money that no stake can control This perfectly aligns with with the things I believe here these philosophies Was there kind of like a eureka moment there? Deki Um, I wouldn't say that happened immediately. It was it was more along the lines of you know It seems like there's a lot of relevancy between bitcoin and what iran was talking about in the sense of Having this decentralized monetary system. Um, it was more of like a gradual sort of realization because I think back then um I still sort of subscribed to this so Subscribed to iran's view that you know, we should go back to a gold standard Um, you know that that was sort of the the that was sort of her position during her time Um, like you know But I think the idea of a gold standard still aligns with like the decentralized nature like having this decentralized monetary system That's independent of the state or a central bank But I mean like sort of you know As I sort of delved more into into cryptocurrencies and bitcoin like it did that realization sort of did sort of eventually hit me Where i'm like actually no, it's the lives of bitcoin that conserves will work against like the ever encroaching state Doug Beautiful. So yeah, I mean, let's, let's get into her philosophy a little bit. I, for those who don't know, what was she all about? Why was she so significant? How was she different than the other philosophers really kind of, what were her novel thoughts? I guess she, she's the creator of objectivism, right? I mean, uh, get into all that. Sure. Um, Deki I'll just give a brief overview so like in so far as the main branches of philosophy are concerned so So objectivism so what it when it comes to so the first like so one of the branches of philosophy is metaphysics So that is you know the nature of reality So her stance her philosophy is that you know there is an objective reality You know the one we live and inhabit today this universe this world This is all there is there isn't some other other world some other reality, you know, there isn't an afterlife This is it. This is all we have You know, we don't live in the matrix. So The other branch of philosophy so epistemology. So that is about how do we learn? How do we acquire knowledge and Her view is that you know, we acquire knowledge through reason through Rational inquiry, you know as opposed to say using your feelings, you know, does this feel right? Does this answer feel like the right answer, you know, you know You sort of divorce your feelings and you solely base your acquisition of knowledge on reason When it comes to ethics and this is a controversial one, you know, so how do you how does one live? You know a good life her stance was it's through what she called rational self-interest or rational selfishness So it's it's literally being selfish with your life and making decisions that are going to further and flourish your life Politics so when it comes to politics she was for total free market capitalism, you know Total separation of the state and the economy no tax, you know tax would be voluntary You sort of pay for you know services you think that, you know are applicable And sort of all of this is sort of concretized under art or aesthetics So she was really really huge on aesthetics and art But yeah, that's those are sort of like the main points. Otherwise, this would get way too long Doug She she finished out her days in New York. I can't imagine what she was what she would be thinking feeling saying if she were alive today living in New York City. I don't know if you saw who was a recently who recently won the Democratic primary here in New York, but definitely not somebody that I would say aligns with and Rand's philosophies. Yeah, socialist, arguably a communist based on some of the things he's been saying. Deki uh no look the yeah i know i know you're talking about the guy is definitely um a villain straight out of her novels um i don't like it's like that's the thing like these people they're all they all end up sort of being the same they're like a cookie cutter communist like they're all sort of end up being the same like it doesn't matter who you put in that place whether it's aoc or bernie sanders or this you know this new guy that they're all like very relatable to the villains in her novels because you know the the villains in her novels like their main thing is to um it's to attack and put down the like what iran calls the men of the mind the the people who are capable to create businesses and and to push civilization forward um so i think you know i think everything she said has already been said she probably wouldn't be surprised Doug Yeah, I mean, she came from her background and she came from out of communist Russia, right? Deki Yes, yes. So she was born in 1905. And I mean, she, you know, grew up during the Bolshevik revolution and the communists then they, they, they appropriated her father's business, and the apartment building where they were living. So like, she literally experienced firsthand, like, what, what communism was. Doug What they're trying to do in New York to take away people's property and turn it into public housing and whatnot I mean, yeah It's it's it's wild right like these aren't new ideas. They've been tried before They've failed epically and then you have people like her that that You know came out of this and We're able to so eloquently Describe all the problems with communism and why you know We as as humans need to to kind of embrace focus on capitalism because that's how we kind of can reach our greatest ideals our greatest forms of ourselves, right Yeah, I mean, let's let's get more like get more into it. I mean what so I never I never read her her novels her fiction I've read some of her shorter pieces. So I know you know what what her philosophies are all about I think to it to a degree Have you read her her fiction novels? Do you recommend that people read it even though it's like, you know, even just watching this show You could kind of understand what she was all about. But is there is there a lot there? Are there layers is it is it worth the read? Deki Yeah, 100%. I've read the majority of her work. I highly, highly recommend people read her fiction because that's sort of where she concretizes her philosophy in these relatable characters. I generally, so there's two novels that she's most well known for. There's The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. I usually recommend The Fountainhead first because it's an easier read Atlas Shrugged is a thousand pages long. It is such a dense book. Doug I have it over here somewhere. I saw it in the store a couple of years ago. I was like, let me grab this. I was like, I'll start to. But yeah, it's a little bit of an intimidating one. It's a long one. Deki Yeah, look, it's long. It has some long speeches. But I think if you were to read it today, you would see a lot of parallels with the world we have today and how things are. It's kind of like the gist of the novel is it's set in a dystopian future where the United States is sort of teetering on total collapse and borderline dictatorship and communist takeover. And businesses are falling apart. There's this trains are dysfunctional. They're not running on time. All these major industries are just sort of falling apart under the weight of the government, which just keeps them trying to appropriate more and more from them. Doug Pretty you know, obviously we got we got Trump in office right now But I mean in all the the big cities in the US where we're seeing them collapse in real time, right? Yeah, all of them, but most most of the the major large cities in the US have been Going through this period where it feels like they're entering the kind of the point of no return Especially here in New York like if this new mayor gets in I mean it like you said It'll literally be a chapter out of her book Deki Oh no, 100% it would totally be straight out of Atlas Shrugged. It's even more poignant in a way because she loved New York City. Like when she came to the US in 1926 on a steamship, like she came to New York City first and like she said, you know, she cried tears of joy because it's like she sort of finally came to like this idealized place that she'd seen in like silent movies and she'd read about and she just saw New York City as like this pinnacle of achievement to man's potential. So I think, you know, I think she would be pretty like distraught to sort of see the type of person that could become there. Doug What would she likely be saying about crypto if she was living through crypto times? What do you think her opinion of crypto would likely be? Deki I know it like so sorry Doug I'm saying, obviously, you can't get completely into her mind, but based on her writings, where do you think she would stand? Deki I think she would totally support it, just because it is this piece of technology that is essentially taking away the power of the state, central banking, and putting it back into individual hands. It is technology that embodies the principles of personal sovereignty. You have the right to your own life, your property, your financial freedom, how you spend your money. Your finances are not hostage to this central banking system. I think crypto is in a lot of our self-interest. It is a selfish thing for us to use because it is helping you become independent from the ever increasing state. I think she would be all for it. Doug Yeah, I would think so. I mean, any any thoughts on what her her like criticisms might be or her concerns as she's watching as she'd be watching crypto develop. Obviously, it's not just Bitcoin. We have thousands of thousands of shit coins. And some of them are relevant projects. I won't call them all shit coins, but I'm definitely not one of those guys. But, um, you know, what do you think you should think about that? I mean, you mean? Deki Yeah. Well, look, I, you know, I think. Doug It is capitalism, right? It's just people producing, competing. If people want to go buy shitty Trump coin, it's on them. Deki exactly should say the same thing you know that's you know it's your choice what you want to invest to you know even if it's a high-risk gamble that could bankrupt you um you know i think like she i mean at the end of the day she was all for innovation and and genuine progress um i think i don't think she'd have anything against you know like all these different types of cryptocurrency coins i think it's more so against say you know individuals in the cryptocurrency field should have you know should be against certain individuals likely because you know the wrong philosophy the wrong intentions you know people you know pushing pump and dump schemes or trying to scam others it's it would be more about you know attacking like the people behind that sort of stuff like that philosophy Doug Right, but I'm sure she wouldn't be calling for regulation of the crypto markets and right I like Deki No, so she wouldn't advocate for regulation, like in her views and her position, the only role of the government is the military to protect from foreign threats, the police force to deal with crime and theft, and the judiciary system to deal with fraud and disputes. So, you know, something is like an obvious fraud case, like, you know, if like someone if like someone's exchange claims to offer you something, but they don't, you know, that's that's an issue of fraud that, you know, you should go through the courts for, but she wouldn't advocate for actual regulation. Doug Yeah, I mean, she's basically a libertarian. She was a libertarian, right? She basically summed up the libertarian ideology. Deki To an extent, just keep in mind, she wasn't a fan of libertarians in her time. She wanted to differentiate herself from libertarians and anarchists. She wasn't an anarchist, although I understand like a lot of people who are on the anarchist libertarian side, they do admire her a lot, but in her time, she didn't want to be associated with them. She was very staunchly individualistic and like, you know, here are my ideas and this is why they're unique and they don't align with these other ideologies. Doug Yeah, I'd be curious what you would think about Bitcoin, too, and how Bitcoin has evolved and arguably has become co-opted. I wonder what her what her thoughts would be on that right here. We have this great, great tool that's come out of the free market. But in many ways, arguably, it appears like it could be used for purposes of controlling and surveilling people as opposed to giving them just pure freedom and liberty from from the state. Deki Yeah, well, um, so yeah, no, yeah, it's interesting you bring that up because, um, you know, like the like cryptocurrency sort of philosophy and idea is, you know, to be sort of independent from from state control and, you know, these other external institutions that that could control house be like your, your financial destiny. You know, I think, yeah, she would sort of definitely call out this, like the way, like the whole, um, the way Bitcoin seems to be being manipulated the way it's sort of getting in bed with, um, I think it's, um, the BlackRock or like one of these other major investment firms and the government as well. She actually talks about this in her novels, like the, the villains in Atlas shrugged, you know, who have their own businesses, they're in bed with the government to get favorable deals, um, to out compete their competitors and punish their competitors. So she was definitely against, you know, that sort of collusion where it involved the state. Um, but I mean, I think her overall response would be, you know, if a certain coin has veered off from its core principles, then, you know, you just vote with your money, you go somewhere else. Doug and maybe she would make her way to Monero, potentially, right? Deki I would say I think she would because it was all she was all about privacy as well. So she would definitely I think she would Doug She was all about privacy. She said things on those topics? Deki Yeah, so she has a she's got a really good quote. Um, you know about what the goal of privacy is Um, you know and why it matters I can read the quote now. It's it's not too. It's a bit short Doug Yeah, I mean, it would make sense, right? Especially if she believed in strong individualism. I think I even have a quote on my own quote on ex that kind of relates privacy to individualism, but yeah, I would love to hear what it is that she said. Deki She says on so civilization is the progress of a society towards privacy the savages The savages whole existence is public ruled by the laws of his tribe Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. So it's like this very individualist Doug theme that's interesting that's interesting civil wait how does it end civilization is the progress of freeing men from men Deki Yeah, it's the process of setting man free from men, so setting the individual free from the collective. Doug Right, but I mean, obviously the advent of civilization itself was literally was a collective, right? So it starts off civilization the way, you know, at least in my mind, right? Deki Yeah, no, no, 100%. Like, I think, you know, that's how hunter gatherer tribes originally started out, they had to be in this sort of collective that to live in this collective way, because your very existence kind of depends on other people because you know, you're having to like, you know, literally gather food. But unlike her whole argument is, you know, we progress to such an advanced scale as a civilization that, you know, we don't need to live as hunter gatherer tribes, we, we live through voluntary exchanges with other individuals with businesses, you know, we don't have to go out and forage, you know, in the wilderness, you know, we, we pay, you know, we go to a supermarket, we purchase food, and that food was delivered by some other company, like her. So like, that's why that's why her quote is like, you know, civilization is this process of, of elevating the individual above the collective. And, um, but yeah, if that makes sense. Doug No, it does. But it's also, like I said, it's also kind of, it naturally plays out the other way in a fright. I mean, you're bringing people together in a society to live, to live among each other. It is by its nature, it's a collection of people that are sacrificing their, they're putting aside perhaps some of their individual desires for the purposes of the of the greater good, right for society itself. But I guess she's saying as as civilization evolves, the goal should eventually be that yeah, that we then have the ability, the technology to live among each other in a civilization, but we're in a way where we still can maximize our individuality while living in a collective, right? Because society by its definition, I mean, you know, civilization by its by its very definition is a collective in my mind, I don't see how it can't be. Deki Well, it's, I mean, it's comprised of individuals. I mean, right. Otherwise you'd be out. Doug woods on your own, right? I mean, like here, right? Like, yeah. Deki Like, you'd be like Ted Kaczynski. Um, I mean, look, he took it. Doug different approach. Deki But look, her whole argument is, you know, the idea is you should be free to live your life as an individual on your own terms, so long as you're not, you know, defrauding someone. Yeah. So as you're not hurting someone else, you know, and like, and it's also not about, like, it's not about sort of sacrificing for like some greater good. But the idea is that, you know, she talks a lot about this, actually, about this notion of sacrifice, because, like, for example, you know, if if I spend, like, a lot of time studying and working towards something, but at the same time, you know, my friends are asking me to go and socialize, and, you know, I don't do that with them, but I just focus on my work, like, am I am I sacrificing? Well, no, because I'm that I'm putting more of a value on the work I'm doing, as opposed to this socializing, or if you have a child, you know, say you only have like, one piece of food left, and you're both hungry, you know, is it a, is it a sacrifice to give it to your child instead of yourself? No, no, it's not because you're valuing your child's life, you know, your child's life is a value to you. So it makes sense that, you know, you would prioritize that. So it's not like a sacrifice is when you like exchange a higher value or something that's less. Doug Right, she doesn't see civilization itself being antithetical to being an individual no Deki No, no. So like, I mean, it's just sort of very much against the use of these collectivized terms, because like the risk was is always that, you know, like, sure, we'll just refer to these people as a collective and then like over time it erodes, you know, it erodes the whole notion of autonomy of like being an individual and The argument was that, you know, this undermines personal sovereignty, sort of like, as she saw in Russia herself. And, you know, she has, so in Atlas Shrugged, have you heard of Galtz Galtz? Doug No, it sounds familiar. Well, that was from the Atlas Shark. Deki Yeah, so it's basically, so I'll just, you know, spoiler warnings, I'll just give away some of the novel, if that's okay. I think it's okay. Yeah, basically, a lot of people are a lot of capable people who are running like these vital industries and businesses, they mysteriously disappear and vanish. And long story short, they're going on strike. There's this guy called john Galt, who was getting them to leave, you know, society and go and join his private secret community in the mountains in Colorado called Galt's Gulch. And here they have their own currency, they use gold, they have their own laws and rules, it's basically like a refuge from like the rest of the world. And I mean, like you have all these people living in like this community, but they sort of all recognize that, you know, yes, we're individuals, but we're also here to voluntarily trade with one another, because you know, we're doing that free from from coercion, like nobody's, nobody's like forcing them to sort of say, Oh, yeah, you know, this is for like a common good, like everyone recognizes that, you know, like what I'm doing here benefits my own sort of selfish reasons and what that other person is doing benefits to them. And when everyone is sort of pursuing those type of goals, it does sort of add up to this, you know, I don't like you guess, I don't like to use a term, I guess what you'd call like a common good. Doug They were opting out, they were opting out of society and creating their own. Deki Yes, yeah. Doug opting out. Manero topia. Right? But they were using Manero. Deki They may as well call it that, actually. Yeah, yeah. Doug Yeah, I mean, these aren't new ideas, right? A lot of what's happening in crypto and what the goal is, right? We have a new tool for it, but these aren't new concepts. These are things that have been talked about for a long time. Now, we're fortunate enough to live in a time where we have a tool that may allow us to actually achieve these ideas. Deki Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, like, that's been the appeal of Monero to me. It is because it is a privacy-focused coin. And, you know, like, you should be able to have that freedom to having financial privacy because, you know, as I'm sure you know, like mass surveillance is pervasive. It's everywhere. You know, there's government surveillance and corporate surveillance. It's like, you know, like you can't, like, it's like you need permission to use your own money. Speaker 2 Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug Yeah, I mean, do you have opinions there? Obviously, Monero is a privacy coin. But me, and I think a lot of other people of Monero would argue, well, it's just a true crypto. This stuff doesn't even work if privacy isn't part of it. Because then it's no longer... The money is no longer fungible, and it's no longer functioning as cash, where one person can send it to another person without the whole world knowing. Do you agree with that kind of for this stuff to even work as intended, as money that's separate from the state, it needs to be private at its core? Yeah. Deki 100% I agree that that should always be the goal because you're always going to have these nefarious actors trying to undermine like just trying to find a way to undermine or subvert subvert you so like you need to have privacy like Doug baked in 100% yeah I think she'd have some concerns with Bitcoin to be honest I mean right I think she'd catch on pretty early to the surveillance coin meme Deki Yeah, definitely. I mean, like if something isn't operating like as its intended purpose, then it's kind of like a scam, you know. Doug Yeah. Uh, tell us more, man. Tell us more. Tell us more about, uh, and anything else from your presentation that you want to get out there in terms of ideas. Deki So I'll so I did have some good slides about um merging objectivism with crypto So I'll just I'll just I'll just creating these analogies So I can so basically like, you know in on iron ranside you have individual sovereignty This is akin to self custody. So your your keys your coins complete control over your finances You have property rights on iron ranside and in crypto you have immutable ownership So, you know, the blockchain ensures your property cannot be seized or frozen arbitrarily On iron ranside you have freedom from force Cryptoside you have permissionless systems. So you don't need approval from banks or governments to transact and Doug And lastly... And encryption, I would put encryption there, right? That gives us the freedom from force, right? Yes, that's a good point, yes. Deki Yeah, 100%. That's a good point, actually. Encryption, definitely. That's what makes it possible. But lastly, you have rational self-interest and you have privacy by design. So protecting your financial data serves your legitimate interests. That's why you want to have privacy in by design. Doug And then the the systems themselves run on rational self-interest, right? I mean, that's how Bitcoin was bootstrapped to where it is today People trying to hoard Bitcoin grab Bitcoin game Bitcoin people, you know selfishly mining Bitcoin But the interests align In that you know, the end result is a distributed system where you have these actors that are selfishly using it for their own purposes Deki Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's, you know, like, that's sort of the the intention, like, you, you in order to get to that mass distributed system. I mean, like, people are going to act in their own selfish interest. But, you know, keep in mind, like, I'll just include this an example. So somebody like Sam bankman fried, he's not, you know, I wouldn't say that he was being selfish when, you know, he scammed everyone. Even though some people might make that argument, but you know what, like, you just sort of have to ask yourself, like, you know, how is it in your own selfish interest to, you know, scam all these people and, you know, take all this money when eventually you're going to be found out, you know, you're going to end up in prison, you know, whatever the outcome is, it's not going to be good. So, you know, that didn't like that didn't serve his sort of self interest. It's just sort of backfired completely. Doug Mm-hmm. What do you think she'd think of like dark markets and Ross Albright and Silk Road? Um Deki You know, again, I think should be totally for the concept, I think, should be totally supportive of Ross Ulbricht, you know, like, again, like, you know, the guy made a piece of tech, you know, he didn't, he didn't use force, he didn't, you know, threaten anyone to make it, he just made this piece of technology that people could use away from, you know, the surveillance state. And like, that's sort of the fundamental thing that he did. And she would, I think she would totally support that, you know, but the fact that, you know, there are some people who will use this for, you know, they will use this for criminal activities and whatnot. Well, you know, you can't control that, unfortunately, that's, you know, like, she would be against that, obviously. But I mean, you can't blame the creator for, for like, those sort of things. It's like, you know, using a car to harm someone. Well, do you blame the car manufacturer? So... Doug How did she, you know, from a practical sense, I mean, how did she see these things getting implemented, you know, her ideas without causing Issues on you know, we're kind of what were her arguments when issues were brought up on the other side with You know what what she was trying to implement like why all right. Well, it's gonna lead to like it sounds great in theory But you know, whatever it's gonna be Society can't can't handle this. They need a we need states to have more power to watch over people Like what kind of what were her responses to those criticisms? Deki um you know from i was trying to think like essentially her arguments were that you know at the end of the day like you know she's referring to the u.s in these cases she's saying you know like the u.s needs to get its debt under control like that's what she was firstly sort of arguing for it needs to control its spending and you know scale that back significantly i mean Doug She wouldn't be a fan of the big beautiful Bill, probably. No. Deki she wouldn't. She generally, yeah, she just wasn't a fan of like any increasing government debt. But like, it's, you know, her, I think her ideas, it's not the sort of thing that I think you could implement in like a generation, for example, it's like, it's something that would take time, but essentially, you know, it's cut back on government spending, you know, just abolish institutions at the government shouldn't be involved in such as the Department of Education. And just, you know, slowly over time, sort of bring that under a private market. Now, like, you do need to have the right ethics and moral code for all of that to work out, which is why she presented her philosophy, like, in this coherent way. Otherwise, you know, if you don't have the right ethics and the right philosophy, then, you know, you know, it doesn't matter if you privatize something, it could end up being like an even worse product. But you know, the argument is essentially, if you have this private market, and people like, you know, they have choices, and you know, the best product eventually wins. So Doug What do you think she would likely say about the border situation here in the U.S.? Deki it's difficult to well yeah difficult to say just keep in mind she she passed away in the 1980s so well well before like any of like this migration crisis came up look i think i think her arguments would definitely sort of firstly say you know you do want to keep immigrant um you do want to keep criminals out like you know definite criminals you want to keep them out um her like i think like i think the view that she held in her time was that you know there should be this sense of an open immigration system that's controlled through some vetting process um but it doesn't mean that people get like automatic citizenship it's it was more my understanding it was more about you know like people who sort of want to come over and work now this was keep in mind again 20th century perspective we live in a totally different time me personally my personal views is you know i think the whole border crisis in the u.s and the overall like immigration issues we're having across the west i think they're a major issue that need to be resolved um but you know like yeah it's it is a sort of pretty convoluted topic it's i it'd be hard to sort of gauge what she would say today i don't think i think i think she would look i you know i think the way immigration is being i think it's being weaponized today by the left that's my personal opinion um you know i think she would be very much against that um but that that's probably all i can say say on the matter Doug I mean, yeah, she's like, like we said, right, she was she wasn't a complete anarchist. She believed in the state, she thought, you know, we needed this, the state to basically protect people's individual rights, protect, be there to adjudicate when people have issues. And then also just protect people right with, I would assume with with strong borders and, you know, like defense from other from other nations, right. Deki Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, like the whole existence of a military is to protect you from yeah, like, like a foreign invasion, you know, other nations. And, you know, I think, like, what, yeah, like, what, like what I've observed, at least, you know, it does sort of seem like there are definitely like foreign agents using like the weak and the southern border as a way to sort of come in and try to like introduce some viruses or just other issues or just outright murder people, which, which, you know, like we've seen happen. So it's Doug Any thoughts on perhaps country's places she would be excited about in this day and age? I mean, I don't know. Let me know where that is. Liberland, I don't know, never been. Maybe Buenos Aires she'd be interested in right now or she'd head down there. Deki Yeah, look, I think anywhere that is sort of like, you know, implementing, you know, low attacks and cutting back on government spending and just sort of scaling back, you know, government incursions, I think should be fully supportive of it. Like, you know, Argentina seems like a very positive story. But, you know, at the end of the day, her long held ideal of a nation was always the United States. And even in her time, she didn't, she didn't like any other country, she sort of was very critical of like the rest of the world. And she just sort of held the US as this sort of ideal pinnacle that had to go back to its founding roots in order to save itself, essentially. Doug She liked the United States, she came here from Russia, she, yeah, she saw its potential. She understood the founding principles. Yeah, I must say, I agree with that notion. Hoping to get the U.S., help get the U.S. back to what I believe it was meant to be in terms of its basic principles. But I don't know, man, I don't know. Deki Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's why she sort of wrote the essays and the novels that she wrote because she sort of essentially was saying, you know, if we if we don't turn back now because, you know, the ideas that were present in her time, she projected them out, you know, decades ahead, and she could see where things would end up. That's why she was so fiercely passionate against, you know, increasing are coming. Yeah, yeah, she sort of saw it coming. Doug Yeah. Because she came from it. Maybe she would be interested in these concepts of network states that's coming out of the crypto movement. I don't know how familiar you are with those concepts. Deki Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with them. I think, no, look, I think definitely you should be supportive of any, any, um, any alternative, any sort of way to opt out to go to your own version of Gulch Gulch, because at the end of the day, you do need to, you know, protect yourself, look out for yourself and your family. Um, like you do need to prioritize that. There's no use living, you know, it's like you see, you know, you sort of see an, like an army of tanks coming out from like, you know, government headquarters coming right at you. Well, you're not going to say to yourself, I guess I'll just hang around here, you know, you're going to opt out somewhere else. So definitely. Doug I'd like to believe should be an XMR Bazaar power user should be on their XMR Bazaar. Deki No, totally, she would definitely, you know, want to, she'd definitely have her anonymous handle should be totally for that. I mean, yeah, like, you know, Goldsculch that she had in Atlas Rod, it's, you know, it's also an anonymous community because before you get there, you don't know who's going to be there. So she should definitely be for that. Doug Negras is saying and ran Would definitely not support Malay? So yeah, I don't know Perhaps perhaps perhaps is right Argentina and read would support a far-right cloud that supports our detail Argentinian military dictatorship Ukraine and Israel. I know Deki that she would support Mille, I mean, I think she would support some of his ideas. I don't know much about him, aside from the fact that he has like heavily cut back on spending and his tax reforms, but I never said she would support him. You know, she was very critical politicians in her time, she actually didn't like Reagan for the record, you know, just to sort of give you an example. And she, you know, she definitely didn't like any left wing politicians back then as well. Doug What's she like about Regan? I mean, you'd think he would be at least somewhat close to what she was gutted for at the time. Deki understanding is that she didn't like him because he didn't promote the moral case for having like a free market capitalist system like she saw like she was sort of saying you know he's this guy trying to present himself as a free market person but he really isn't so he's giving a bad name to free market capitalism. That's my understanding I could be wrong but she does talk about this in an interview. Doug She thought he was a phony that he was just using the free market capitalism that he wasn't really truly principled. I guess she thought Deki Yeah, yeah, essentially that that was her sort of qualm with him and she didn't she didn't she didn't vote in that election. Wow. Doug I mean, he went and he tore down the wall. He helped fight communism. Oh, she's a tough, tough cookie to win over. Right. So I guess she probably would not be a big fan of Trump. Deki Um, no, look, I don't know if she would be or it's hard to say her intellectual heir for what it's worth. So like the guy that studied under her and he's still alive. He's in his nineties. Um, he likes Trump. I don't know if that's worth anything, but, um, keep in mind she did die in 1982, so she didn't see the fall of like the Berlin war and all this sort of stuff. Just early, early Reagan. Um, but yeah, so no, look, she was, she was very much about, you know, people need to have principles. If you're going to promote an ideology, be principled about it, that that was her sort of argument. Doug What are some, uh, maybe some other philosophers that you're, that you're into? Is, are you, and Rand is, uh, is your, is your top. Deki Um, definitely I ran is like the nine Doug and I know I keep mispronouncing it, I'd read. That's okay. Deki I really really like Frederick Bastiat. He's a French guy. Doug I've read one of his his well-known short pieces, right? Uh, I got the name of it Deki I forget the name as well, I've only read like excerpts of him and I think like he's sort of more on the law, like philosophy of law side of things to my understanding. But I think he's quite like a good philosopher. I can't think of many like modern contemporary philosophers that I really like. They're all in the past. I think the founding fathers of America, like I think like as you know, you could describe them as philosophers because they had like a lot of really, really great and bright ideas to establish this new nation that was like predicated on the principles of individual rights. I think that they're admirable. Doug And where you are, I mean, you guys aren't doing too well over there in terms of living up to these ideals. Is that fair to say? Deki Yeah, that is totally fair to say. Australia is not a beacon of freedom. As far as western countries go, it's a pretty stock-standard western country. Every now and then it grows down this near-authoritarian path, like we saw with the COVID lockdowns. So it's mixed, basically. Doug But we really got Negros triggered over here over the Malay comments. Oh man. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's yeah, look, I don't know what to say. Deki I don't know much. Look, I don't know too much about him. Just the polls some of these policies and yeah Doug I do think, you know, Buenos Aires has definitely changed in some good ways since he's taken office. We did a show out here. We did a out of Monerotopia. The other day, somebody's selling a piece of property down. We have actually multiple properties now in ExoMar Bazaar in Argentina that can be purchased with Monero. Just the fact that it's a place where you could show up with Monero and buy property, in my mind, makes it a very interesting place, right? It's someplace that's kind of living up to the ideals. Getting closer. Deki Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, you know, if it goes, keeps on going in the direction it's going to, then I think it'll become a country that a lot of people will want to move to. I mean, that's like people sort of vote with their feet. They want to live in more freedom, not less. Doug So yeah, very cool that you went to Manerikhan. You spoke on these topics. How was Manerikhan overall? Did you had a good time? I'm sure you had some amazing conversations over there. You got to meet some cool people. Deki Yeah, it was pretty great. It was my first cryptocurrency related conference, so it was awesome. I'm glad I went, had a lot of engaging discussions, and yet did meet a lot of interesting people. You could pay using Monero to get a drink at the bar there. That was fun. You just did it through cake wallets. But yeah, no, it was pretty good. I'm glad I went. It was worth the opportunity. Doug Oh, yeah, I've been to everyone except this year. This is the first one I've missed But I was running some I was running a an event at pork fest for a arrow So I was I was in it wasn't able to go this year. Unfortunately Maybe maybe we see you down at Monero topia. We do it's it's another Monero conference So there's Monero con and there's Monero topia Monero topia is happening in Mexico City in February I might be a bit of a trip for you, but That's okay. You probably you probably really enjoyed it. It is a Monero topia. Okay, I'll check it out Yeah, lots of vendors. They're selling all sorts of things for Monero a lot of great speakers. It's very cool Deki Nice. Nice. What is Doug What's your feels with Monero these days? What's your overall Monero take? Deki Um, from what I can tell, sort of on a superficial level, like, you know, I think, I think it's, like, I think it's in a good place. You know, I think it could definitely do with a lot more exposure and awareness, but that is also kind of dependent on, you know, how it's delisted from all these exchanges. But, you know, I'm, I don't, yeah, I'm glad, like, I'm glad it's still around and still exists. Um, but I think some more awareness is definitely sort of very much needed just because, like, we do want to get, like, not, you know, total mass adoption, but you just want more people to be aware, hey, this thing exists and this is why it's important. Doug Any thoughts on what needs to happen to make that happen? Deki Oh I mean definitely I mean I think people with larger platforms who are capable of like reaching like larger audiences if you can get them on board somehow you know someone like Elon Musk for example like you know I think but I think in terms of what like you know we could do it's just more about speaking to your friends and family about it and just making them aware because that's sort of the immediate vicinity of people you can affect change in unless you have some large platform but just sort of speaking to friends family and colleagues and yeah explaining why it's important so. Doug Yeah, I mean, it's hard to get people to care about those ideas, right? It's kind of like getting people to care about and ran if they're not already in that, you know, and if they're not of that philosophy of that ilk, lots of times you talk to a normie, right? They kind of eyes roll over. They're like, why do you care so much about, about individualism? Like, you know, why are you so worried about the state? Um, don't you have a nice life? You're able to, you know, watch your Netflix and you get your, get the food delivered to your door. Like everything's great. It's awesome. Right. Uh, well, it's very hard to get and kind of get these ideas across to people when their basic needs are seemingly being met. Deki That's a very good point. Unfortunately, a lot of people are pretty complacent and they're comfortable with the lives they have. Like you said, if they have their food and entertainment needs met, then they kind of just shrug at everything else. And it is difficult to communicate to people in that state. Like I've had friends who are like that and they just kind of, like they think something's wrong with you when you talk to them about these ideas. And I mean, you can't change people's minds. They have to do that themselves. Like you can try and give them examples, but at the end of the day, it's up to them to think. Doug Did Anran have these, were these characters in her novel? Like people that were trying to get, be convinced. Did she have the normies in the novels? Yeah, she, she. Deki She had normies, she had the NPC types, she called them secondhanders in her novels, but she had the NPC raging types, the NPC raging meme, she had all those, those were her villains essentially, the NPC's and those sort of characters. So, if you read Atlas Shrugged you'll see that. Doug straight away. Any thoughts on what she might suggest or say on how we break through and get these ideas across to people that may not initially care about them at all? Or they just have to learn the hard lessons they need to you know elect a communist mayor in New York City and then deal with the consequences and elevate, oh okay now I understand. Maybe. Deki maybe that's what it will take. I don't know. Oh, look, I think, you know, I think she, you know, her ultimate like always just sort of says, you know, just, you know, keep on talking and engaging with people like you can, you know, I think eventually you can get through to like certain types of people. It's if you, you know, like the fact that you and I here means that, you know, we've come to these conclusions as well. Like I think you just have to continue discuss like having these discussions and giving people real world examples like, Hey, this is what happened in the past. This is what's happening now. Do you see the similarities? Like, are you worried about, you know, the direction things are heading in, you know, that that sort of stuff like I've because I've done that myself. It's like, I'm like, here's a historical example. Here's what's happening today, you know, and people kind of sort of like tune into that, even if they're not fully convinced. So I think it does take some time for people to change their mindset though. Doug And like Australia, I mean, you guys saw some pretty hardcore lockdowns. What was your personal experience in terms of people's reaction there? Did people learn their lesson or they're like, oh, no, it was fine. Whatever. I got back 10 times and I sat in my house for a year. We did what we had to do. Or was there kind of a realization? Are you talking to people now that kind of went through it that maybe were all for it that now have realized that it was a scam? Deki look, don't get me started on this topic. Most people kind of just shrug. They don't care about it anymore. It's like they still think it was all justified. If you mention it to most people today, it's like, yeah, so what did you think about this insane period that we went through as a country? And the responses are, it was justified or they just shrug. They're like, it's in the past. Move on. Even back then, I was having discussions with friends who were kind of libertarian. And I'm like, are you worried about these incursions the state is having on our lives? You can't move more than five kilometers. You have to wear a mask. Are you concerned about that? And most people just shrugged. And I've said this to other people, but I wasn't so much concerned about what the government did. It was that response from the general public and the general apathy that people displayed. That's what I found most worrying. And it's it's I've met a few people since them that have kind of sort of like wisened up to it all, but it's nowhere near the scale of what you'd expect. Doug They shrugged like Atlas. Deki Yeah, I mean, just in a different direction. That is a whole other topic, though. Doug All right, man. Well, this this is a great convo decki. I appreciate you coming on super cool that you made it to Monero con You were able to get up on the main stage there give this talk. I'm sure it was well received over there I'm sure there are a lot of people that are already familiar with her work. So that that's really cool and Yeah, maybe we see it Monero topia in Mexico. Yes Deki Definitely, I will keep it in mind and let you know, Douglas, I appreciate you inviting me onto your show. I enjoyed this discussion as well, so thank you very much. Doug Awesome, any information you want to put out there before we close it out? Places for people to find you, or anything you want to shill. Now's the time. Deki Yeah, feel free to follow me on x. I think you you like put my handle on your on your profile So if anyone wants to reach out and just talk more about this or whether read more about iron rand Yeah, feel free to reach out to me. I'd be keen keen keen to talk more about this Doug I'm Rand. All right, man. Thank you so much. I'm going to go ahead and close it out. If you want to stay around for a moment, we could talk backstage. And yeah, see you all next week. Adios. Speaker 2 Hi, Monero Land, thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. Monero Talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you. And supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk.crypto in your Monero.com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Once again, thanks so much for listening and we look forward to being back next week. Thanks for watching!