Latest / Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment) / From Lieutenant to Bafoon: Scott Waldon's Journey that Ended his Career and the Lessons Learned

Transcript

From Lieutenant to Bafoon: Scott Waldon's Journey that Ended his Career and the Lessons Learned · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:23
  Speaker 2: 10 students were killed in a active shooter incident up there and we were asked me and Detective Henderson were asked to come up and assist in the investigation along with some detectives from Medford, and I remember we had a photo of their daughter in our hands and she was deceased.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: And we're basically we know she's deceased but we, because of the way state law worked, the state medical examiner couldn't release the name of any bodies until they were all positively identified, and so the mom just collapsed to her knees and the dad was kind of standing off in the corner and, uh, we, we had to tell her that their daughter was dead.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: What is going on?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Everybody?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is Aaron, and welcome back to the Murderous Music Podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So on today's episode we're going to have an interview with a gentleman named Scott Walden.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Scott Walden is a police officer that I met probably a decade ago in the line of duty.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: He also worked in Oregon.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: He worked in the southern part of the state, I worked in the northern part of the state.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of stuff in common through the years.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: We worked some DRE stuff together.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Drug recognition expert, that is where, if you're under the influence of something other than alcohol, we can run you through a battery of tests and say, okay, this person's probably under the influence of X, y or Z.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: We were instructors together At the time.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We became detectives about the same time and went through the detective process.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: He became a detective sergeant for his agency and then we kind of lose track of each other.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: A few years goes by.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I start this podcast and guess who reaches out to me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Scott says hey, man, I stumbled onto your podcast and I like what you're doing.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I got to talking to him and and in the conversation, without going too deep in those initial conversations, I learned that he was also out of law enforcement that there was.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: We had a kind of a similar story.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So the more I talked to him, I just felt like he was somebody that I think would really benefit from being on this show, because, again, whether you're law enforcement, a realtor, a plumber or a pharmacist, there's certain parallels that we go through in life as human beings, that we can connect the dots, and that's what I want to do tonight.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I want to bring Scott on here in just a second and I just want to talk about his history.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: We're going to start in the beginning and we're going to work through his career.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: We're going to learn about lessons learned, things we could have done differently, things that went well, things that went bad and things that we can improve upon.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: You know, every time we get into a situation in law enforcement a tactical situation, a shooting, something like that at the end of it we have an after action review.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: That after action review is a time not to pat ourselves on the back for what we did right, but to learn from our mistakes, and we're going to go through a complete after action review tonight on this episode.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So, before we say anything else, let me bring on Scott and we will go from there.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Hey, buddy, how are you doing?
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Good, good man, it's nice to finally reconnect with you.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting way to reconnect.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, it's been a minute.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: When did we first meet?
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: What year do you think?
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I was just trying to think about that.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I honestly have no clue.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I became a DRE in 2011.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I can't 11 or 13, somewhere around there.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: And that's when I became one as well.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that had to have been when we initially met was either DRE school or DRE certs.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Had to have been when we connected.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, been a while.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I really, yeah, it's been.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: It's been a while, man, it's been a decade or more.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you reaching out to me.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: How did you find this podcast?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't even know that podcast, I guess.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I don't even know that.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I think I, just as I was, as I'm going through my my stuff, as I call it, with with being out of law enforcement, I'm always researching or looking up stuff or trying to find things that can help me, and I think I just stumbled across your podcast and I said, no way, this is Aaron Cool, listen to it.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And I was like man, this is cool.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: And then I thought, man, he kind of went through the same thing I did.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I got to connect with him, I got to tell him my story and say hi and just kind of reconnect with him and let him know he's not alone out there, that there's more of us running around with these same kind of feelings and frustrations and stress and dealing with all this stuff after law enforcement.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you reaching out.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: It was super cool.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Let's start before.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Let's start like when Scott grew up.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Tell me what it was like growing up, where you grew up, what your childhood was like parents married.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Give me some history there and let's get.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Let's get us through about beginning of junior high, seventh grade or so.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I mean I was actually originally born in Oregon and moved in and grew up.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: So, okay, yeah, I mean I was actually originally born in Oregon and moved in and grew up, grew up down in Southern California in a city called DeWardy it was just like 13 miles from Los Angeles, so kind of a suburb down there Grew up down there, went to junior high, went to high school down there.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: My mom you know, I had my mom and my stepdad.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: They divorced shortly going into high school and was pretty much raised by my mom the rest of the time and I kind of took on the old dominant self and decided I was going to do things my way and eventually actually didn't even finish high school, dropped out, got my GED and moved out on my own and just kind of life kind of went from there and just kind of sped by and I worked in a body shop down there and uh was a painter's helper and uh, by the time I was 20, I was, uh, married and and uh, she was pregnant and I thought, man, what am I going to do with my life?
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Cause this just isn't going to cut it, this.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I think I was making six bucks an hour at the time or something like that, and I said this isn't going to cut it and ended up joining the military and went in the military, became a military policeman, did that for five years and loved it.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, the military police is a little different than your civilian police world.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: You know everything's handled differently and you know it's just a whole different world, but still kind of the same.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: You know, you learn to talk on the radio, you learn to arrest people, you learn to deal with people and things like that.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So it was pretty interesting.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I had a good time.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I wish I would have stayed in, but I ended up getting out.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I ended up getting full custody of my son through a divorce and raised my son by myself for a few years until getting remarried.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: But yeah, after getting out of the military I worked corrections for a couple years and didn't like it.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: You know, what I didn't really like was the leadership style.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't didn't gel with me real well.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I was always a very boisterous person, even the military I think I used to drive my squad leader nuts, but always very boisterous about, you know, good leaders versus bad leaders and what what I thought I wanted to do or what I was going to do.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: So I ended up getting out of the military and uh, working corrections for a couple of years again didn't care for it and I kind of thought you know what, the only way I'm going to be able to do this life is uh own my own business and uh 2000, I think it was 2000 moved down to southern oregon and uh 2001 maybe, and uh started used what I knew from linda body shop and started this, my own auto detail paint touch-up shop, and it was actually pretty successful for about eight years.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: And then by chance, I met a sergeant for a small pd down there and uh, we got to chatting and he's like hey, we have a reserve program.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: And I was just nah, I don't want anything to do with it.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And eventually he he talked me into it and uh became a reserve officer.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: That you know I could do this, you know eight hours a week, big deal.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And uh, as a reserve officer, started working you know, 40 hours a week and then they started paying me.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Uh became full time and uh um.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: So you said all the way back to your childhood do you have any siblings?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I got uh two brothers and a sister.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: And are they?
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And where do you fall in the lineup of ages with them?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: I am second from the youngest, so I have an older brother, older sister and a younger brother.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, and did they?
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Did you guys all live in the same house?
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I presume, yeah, you guys all live together.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, what was that like?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Uh, with the siblings and the parents?
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Like give me an idea as to what your Tuesdays like and what your Christmas is like.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Kind of paint those pictures for me, um, you.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: You know I would say Tuesdays when we're talking about any day of the week.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: If it was me and my older brother, we were going at each other's throats.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I mean we had some pretty good battles.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I can remember my mom breaking us up with the water hose in the yard because we were rolling around, you know, throwing fisticuffs.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: You know I ain't going to say that me and my older brother didn't bully my little brother, because he did definitely get the brunt of being bullied.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, my older sister, who was real popular, very beautiful, had all the boyfriends coming over and so she was doing her thing.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: She was super protective of us, though she was almost, like, I mean, my sister.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: She taught me to swing a bat Wow, actually left-handed, but I bat right-handed because of my sister.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: So my sister was always very protective of us, kind of like almost like our second mom.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: She was four years older than me, so she was already like in high school, when I was in elementary school and junior high, and then, you know, her boyfriends or you know that she had were always super nice to us and always driving us around and doing things.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, my sister was kind of like our second mom very protective.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Me and my older brother probably fought the most.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: And then of course my little brother got the brunt from all of us uh, uh picking on him.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: But my sister was not one to mess with either.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: She was super mean and uh had the boiling blood in her if you really got her mad.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: So we we treaded lightly sometimes with her, uh, till we got a little older, I think she she told me one time she realized I was too old to be doing that to her anymore when she punched me in the face and slammed the sliding door and she saw I was beet red and that she just knew that her days of beating me up were probably over.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and did your parents?
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Did your parents stay married?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Did they get divorced?
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: What did your parents do for work and kind of.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: What was that dynamic like?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my mom, my mom and dad divorced.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I mean I must've been two, I don't know.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: They were never together when I was married.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: We didn't.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't really.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: My dad wasn't really around when I was younger.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't even really get to know my dad very well until I was about 15 probably or 16.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Um, but we did.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I did like I said.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I did have a stepdad super abusive, so we didn't have like a real good relationship with him.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: My mom worked for she did a couple things.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: She's a behavior health specialist and she worked at Metropolitan State Hospital, which is a state hospital down there in Southern California.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And then she also owned a place called.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: It was called Tri Centers.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: It was for the mentally disabled individuals she owned, we owned.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: My mom owned homes or kind of ran homes for mentally disabled.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: So super busy.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: You know, pretty much a single mom.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: My stepdad had the idea that we weren't his.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to say that he wasn't kind to us, you know and always mean to us, that I want to present that picture but he had the idea that his money was his money and my mom's money was there to support us.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So you know, it was always kind of coming to my mom to make sure we had everything we need needed growing up.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: So you can imagine in Southern California, even back then, when the expenses are high.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: You know we went school clothes shopping at the Goodwill.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: You know it wasn't.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: We didn't have the luxury of going and going out to the mall and and, uh, my mom just couldn't afford it, you know.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: But but you know, christmases were always good.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: My mom definitely loved us.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Uh, super, super disciplined.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: My mom was very strict.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Um, as a matter of fact, uh, us three boys got so out of control that she put us on a program where we had like day one one or week one, day one where we had to stay in our pajamas and be in our room and we kind of had to earn our privileges back.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: So my mom was, she was pretty, she was a pretty disciplined woman, but she's a strong one, very smart.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: When it comes to my mom and my mom's husband, amazing guy.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: She ended up getting married, you know, about 25 years ago or so.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Amazing guy.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, love him to death he's.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: He's like my dad, he's my dad.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Uh, he's great to my mom and we're just.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: We've got this nice little family bond going now.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: So it's been nice.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: It's been nice probably the last 20 years or so.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned that stepdad was abusive physically, psychologically, sexually.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: What kind of abusive are we talking?
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, physically and mentally.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I mean he was very, uh, very aggressive.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know smacking us around or you know just doing things that he shouldn't be doing, uh, kind of a bully type kind of mentality, um, you know just punching us in the face or you know just being abusive.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I got married and before going in the military and ended up, you know, honestly, getting the Dear John phone call in basic training and we, you know, we went our separate ways from there and I visited my son when I could.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: You know I was stationed.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: My first duty station was in El Paso, texas, and she lived in Fontana, california, so I would drive.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: It was about a 10-hour drive and eventually just ended up.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I got stationed in Alaska and was fortunate enough to be able to save my money and get a lawyer and ended up getting full custody and when I got out, um had my son and and uh raised him until I got remarried.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: So then you meet up with this reserve officer.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Uh, what department was that reserve officer with?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: That was?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: He was a Sergeant there.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: It was shady Cove, which is a small, you know, 3000 population town.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I think at the time we had three officers or four officers and a chief or something and just a tiny little river town, just like North North North North of Medford, right up highway, probably probably 30 miles or so 25 miles, and it was actually, you know, for being a small town, was actually pretty busy.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I think I rested, you know I averaged about 50 DUIs a year out of there.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: But what people, you know I got a guy one time that robbed a check cashing place down in Sacramento or Redding that drove through there because it was a highway 62 would run through it.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Reading that drove through there because it was a highway 62 would run through it, and so it was a a main highway that would come right through the town and people would go camping and fishing and and they would, you know, this guy that robbed the the check cashing places was actually circling around to go on the back way to Washington and so you actually get a lot of that traffic.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: You know, the town itself wasn't super busy but it was just the people coming through, fights, people at the bars, especially during when the rafting is going wild, and you're kind of dealing with that.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: So it was, it was a good time.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Any small department has its ups and downs, you know, to include funding, but you know, it was nice to be able to go to the small businesses and, like you basically know them by name and you get to know everybody, know everybody's faces and you know who people are.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You know when people are out of place.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: So it was, it was a good time.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: But eventually it ended up being to the point where I was the only officer left the acting chief, the acting chief and, uh, they decided to um, uh with the how they say that they, they can't not con, they contract with the sheriff's office.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: But we were basically absorbed, our department was absorbed by the sheriff, and so we just kind of evolved that way and kind of went into the sheriff's office, uh, in 2010.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Um, and that's Jackson County sheriff.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, jackson County sheriff.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: So that's how you got your start.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's exactly that's Jackson County Sheriff.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, jackson County Sheriff.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that's how you got your start.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly that's it, and you know again.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: But I think when we talk about work ethic and dedication, for me I feel like it goes back to Shady Cove, because you know again, I was the only officer left after we had our female sergeant go out on baby leave.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: The chief retired.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: One guy went to Jackson County and got a job and so we weren't able to really rehire.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You can imagine the pay wasn't great.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I made most of my earnings off of overtime and picking up all the shifts that weren't ever getting covered and call out pay.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: But you know, I was on call from.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I'd'd be on call from.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I'd have to work a swing shift.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: It was my schedule and I'd get off at two and be on call till eight in the morning, you know, and could get paged out, and this was sometimes seven days a week.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Small town policing is good, you know, and there's people in our both of our agencies that have never worked outside of the four walls that they're in today.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: And until you've worked a small town police department, you know our motto is there's no call too small and you don't get to choose what you, you know, um Willie is the term we would use, but uh, call that you get to, just you know, poopoo away and make go away and, just you know, sign it off and not respond to it or not investigate it.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: And in my town in Alaska, it didn't matter if it was a, you know, a car clout where somebody stole a checkbook out of a car, or a murder.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: You worked them, you solved them, you interviewed them, you prosecuted them and you moved on to the next one In my world.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: And I you said something that really resonated and that is where you get your work ethic from.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And I, you said something that really resonated and that is where you get your work ethic from.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: When I came to my department, that's what I was doing.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm out there and I'm in a major city now where there's crime everywhere, crimes rampant, you know, and whether I'm chasing dime bags of dope or identity thefts or whatever it might be well, that shit takes a long time and the people I was working with didn't get it.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: You know, I get out there and I'm overturning every rock and I'm just a hard charger and I take a long time on my calls because I ask questions and I solve my cases.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: You know where they're like man, we've answered four calls to your one and I'm like, yeah, but you, you just signed them off and made them go away.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: It's not like you really did anything.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: You know, you did no investigation and they just never really got it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: But I think you're absolutely right that small town policing instills a different sense of pride and work, a different sense of work ethic and you just follow through versus the person that you know day one.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: They respond to 150 calls on day one and they're like, holy crap, I don't have time to do anything.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: They respond to 150 calls on day one and they're like, holy crap, I don't have time to do anything.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: You know, and I get both sides of it, but for me it was really really hard to find the gray.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I was black and white.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: You know you either broke the law or you didn't.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: If you broke the law.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I was going to, you know, do whatever I could to make sure you paid for it.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: And it took me a decade to find that gray area.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: And then, quite frankly, by the time I left, if it wasn't a murder or a felony child abuse, I really didn't care.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Herd armed robberies come out every day and I'm like, why the hell are we responding to that?
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: It's an armed robbery.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Nobody's hurt, nobody cares, it's not going to get prosecuted.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: You know why are we wasting our time?
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Everybody go 10-8.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: And you know, that was kind of my feelings when I left and I again, I think that's a clue.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: It's probably time for me to be done.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: As far as the police, as far as the sheriff's department goes, let's talk about that.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I want to do an after action review kind of your career.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: You're familiar with what that is.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Walk me through that the highs and the lows, the lessons learned, the mistakes made.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: And let's talk about how your pain is not without purpose.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Walk me through that after action review.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I love how you put that the after action review of somebody's career.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: It's just, that's awesome.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I really like the way that you use that term in this setting.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: So let's get on to the sheriff's office.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, when I first got to the sheriff's office us, coming from a small town it was they kind of had the administrative staff, the majority of them, I mean, there was one captain that I just absolutely loved, that really looked out for us, but the majority of them kind of had this opinion that though they're from a small department, they don't know anything, you know, and we were kind of treated as such.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: We were kind of treated as the outcasts and almost like they didn't think we were going to make it, you know, that we weren't going to be able to do the job, that we weren't good enough to be at the sheriff's office.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't the only one that felt that way.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: The sergeant that came over, she kind of felt the same way.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: We talked about it a lot, you know, and it's funny because when you look back and you think about that, I can remember riding along with deputies going, uh no, you should probably do it this way, because not because I knew more than them.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: But because I knew, I knew, because I had to do it, I had to learn to do it Right.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I had to learn to do it.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I could not do it at a small, small department and so, um, you know, going in there was was, uh, the the biggest struggle.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: When I got there, uh was trying to prove my worth, I think, and it worked out.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Uh, there was a captain there who I absolutely loved and, uh, I think he saw it.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: He saw, he's like man, this, this guy.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I knew, he saw it when, when I had become a detective and I don't want to jump too far ahead but when I become a detective and he came in my office and said, how come you didn't put in for Sergeant?
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I knew, I knew then that he had saw, I had proven my worth.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: How long did you spend on patrol before you per, before you promoted to detective?
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I first was on patrol from 2010 to promoted to detective in.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I think it was 2013, October of 2013.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong, it might have been 2014.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: But I ended up going to a contract city first.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: White City is a small contract population of about 12,000 people that the sheriff's office contracted with and I was part of what we called the cat team community action team.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: We just specifically worked white city and white city was a fairly busy gang activity lots of break-ins, you know, lots of crime, but it was really made up of really good, hardworking citizens.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: But that's just kind of where they could afford to live, you know.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: But you had this pockets of people around them that just created havoc, and so we were fairly busy and I worked there from 2000, maybe it was 2013 to 2014 and then and then ended up going to detectives in 2014.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was 2014.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Tell me about your time in detectives Just briefly.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: What did you?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: What kind of cases did you work?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And then how was your and I know a little bit about your story, but from the detectives, just briefly, what did you?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: What kind of cases did you work?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: And then, how was your and I know a little bit about your story, but from the detectives, how did you promote and promote and maybe even promote and then the implosion.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: If you will walk me through that, what happened and what kind of lessons can be learned from your story?
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I, you know I went into detectives with an open mind.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I was a major crimes detective.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I had a great partner, very smart guy, learned a ton from him, eric Henderson.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: You know him.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: He was you guys were on the board together Very smart detective.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: So I was able to learn a lot.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, my first, my very first day as a detective, my very first case was a homicide where a guy killed his wife.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And you want to talk about blue in the face, not knowing what I was doing, green and nervous as hell.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I, you know, because we had we had Madhu down there a major assault death investigation unit.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So it was departments all over that made up this team.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to have these, you know, 15 tenure detective, veteran detectives looking to me.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: You know what are you going to do right now?
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: And so you want to talk about I was scared, I was.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I was scared.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: A funny part of that story is I was searching the grass, the front yard, walking back and forth, kind of doing a grid search, and it was on the news.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: It says the news says detectives scour front yard for evidence.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: And it's me walking back and forth.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't scouring for evidence, I was looking for my patrol car keys.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: That's funny.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I mean you talk about nervous.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: So that was my first introduction to detectives was a homicide where a guy killed his wife, shot her in the stomach and killed her, then took a shot at his daughter, and so, yeah, so I love detectives, I love the work, I love the ability to focus on a case and go from start to finish, and it was almost like working in a small town again, I guess, where you're able to do start to finish.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: It's your case, you're not handing it off to anybody.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: And then you know, I had my partner, eric Henderson, to rely on and, you know, ask advice, and I had at the time had a great detective sergeant it was Sergeant Sickler at the time, who's now the sheriff there Great sergeant, very smart guy and was really good about teaching me how to be a detective.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And so, again, just worked major crimes and would handle, you know, anywhere from homicides to adult rapes.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: You know financial crimes, elder abuse crimes Really enjoyed elder abuse crimes because it's just something that resonated with me.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people find their niche Missing persons.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: You know just your basic major crimes.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, didn't do any type of child children crimes, um, or anything like that, it was just all major crimes.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Burglaries, uh, financial stuff.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Copy that and then you ultimately became a detective sergeant.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so again, I, I and this is where I think when we talk about mistakes made, this is where I feel they started Um, because I'd only been a detective for um, probably, let's see.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry, I went to patrol Sergeant.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I promoted to Sergeant, went to, back to patrol, so I went to, I went to be a patrol Sergeant in 2000, the end of 2015.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: So you're talking about only being a detective for what?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: 10, 10 or 11.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I think it was October 14 to December 2015.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: So just over a year in the detect as a detective.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: And I've always thought back and I think this is where the mistakes start to go, because I never really settled in Right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: You can't be a good detective.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You can't allow yourself to settle in with that short of time in this line of work.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's just to me, it's just not possible.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, there might be some people out there that can really do it and do a great job, and they're able to do it.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I can talk about a ton of detectives that I admire at Medford PD and the sheriff's office and people that I've met, you or you know, and um, but for me, um, I think it was just too short.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I just started moving.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: So I go from detective to patrol Sergeant and uh and uh, uh, you know, december, a year and two months later, and now I'm on patrol, uh, as a patrol Sergeant, trying to learn that right.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I'm on patrol as a patrol sergeant, trying to learn that right.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to shuffle now, trying to learn not really the patrol aspect I felt like I had a pretty good handle on calls but leadership stuff and still trying to be that guy I always had.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Again, I want your viewers and listeners to understand when I talk about myself I'm really trying not to toot my own horn.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I just want them to understand why I feel this way, the way I do now about law enforcement, and it's because I gave it my all and so you know, I started going into it, went to patrol sergeant and then I'm trying to learn that.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to learn good leadership stuff.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: I'm still trying to be that sergeant that you know I wanted to be, that sergeant that was known that handled calls for service.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I wanted them to say my sergeant comes out all the time and takes calls, and I did.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I took calls as a sergeant when guys got overwhelmed, when they got busy, and there's a couple problems with that.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm doing the work of patrol guys and not teaching them some valuable lessons as time management and things like that, because I'm handling some of their calls for service.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Valuable lessons is time management and things like that, because I'm handling some of their calls for service.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I'm also not really taking the time to learn my administrative skills and if I am, I'm doing them after hours and not getting paid for it.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm trying to catch up on evals, trying to, you know, do payroll and do all this stuff that I could have been doing besides answering calls for service.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And then I'm also not being the best leader I can be, because you know, there's times where I'm on a call, say in prospect, and we get something in the county limits of Medford, that's 50 minutes away, and they need a sergeant.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Well, guess what?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I've just tied myself up.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: You know I can't leave and say, hey, I got to send a patrol guy up here now.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, take this domestic, you know.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Or if I'm hauling, like, say, I arrested domestic or something like that, and I'm driving him to the county jail and now something bad happens or something, now I'm just trying to work it from the radio, which isn't good, right?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: These guys need you there on scene to make these decisions, some of these tough decisions for them that they're just not comfortable making for them that they're just not comfortable making.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And so, again, that's where I think these mistakes started to build up a little bit, that I was making as a leader and a supervisor and then not grounding myself and being the best at learning to be the best I can be.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Because, again, I went within a year and two months.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: I went to patrol, was a patrol sergeant for a little over a year and then became detective sergeant in 2017, april of 2017.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying you can't learn on the fly.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that there's people that can't do it For me.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: It was just I don't think I was putting my best, doing myself a good service or the guys I was supervising by jumping around so fast.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I was never really learning to be good at one job.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: It was almost like being a jack of all trades, right?
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: What's that saying?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Jack of all trades, good at none, or whatever?
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: It's almost like you're bouncing around and you're just leaving so quick and you don't really learn how to be good in that one position.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Now, sometimes in reality that's just in the department you're at, where you're understaffed, or it's a smaller department.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: It's just reality.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Right, people promote fast.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: It's just kind of how it is.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: But for me this is where I think the mistake started to begin, because I started moving up so fast, not grounding.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't keep myself grounded, I just kind of went too fast.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: How long were you a detective sergeant?
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I know you promoted a lieutenant, but how long were you a detective sergeant?
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I was a detective sergeant from April of 2017 until October of 2018.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Our patrol lieutenant took another job somewhere else and left, and I had tested for it and was second on the list and the sheriff said, hey, do you want it?
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, I'll take it, which, again, another mistake for me, because I'll tell you right now, if there's any detective sergeants out there listening, you got by far the best job in any department.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: It's just an amazing position to be in, and I could have done so much more as a detective sergeant by not promoting up.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: But again, I'll be honest, I always wanted to be that leader that the guys could come to, that was making the right decisions.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: That wasn't being that leader that we all know and have distaste for, and so that was one of my reasons for promoting.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't want the power.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't, I didn't, I just wanted to be able to.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: My main thing was I wanted to be able to make decisions without really having to, in a lighter way, ask permission Right.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: And I could.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I could, uh, I can talk about.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: You know things.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I, a quick one was.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: You know I had a guy, a deputy, very sharp guy, very smart.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: His wife ended up getting sick, got cancer.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Well, he ran out of vacation and and vacation and sick time.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And he came to me and he said hey, lieutenant, I have no more vacation, sick time, but I have a son, my wife's sick, gone through chemo, and I don't have any time off.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And I said all right, well, I'm going to talk to your patrol sergeant, clear it with him, but you're going to work for me now and you're going to work from home.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Very computer savvy guy, and he would build me these Excel spreadsheet systems that I needed.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: And I said you're going to work from home, I will make sure that you work eight hours a day, five days a week.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: And I tell you that because those are the kind of decisions I can make as a Lieutenant, right?
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I didn't ask permission.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I did it and I didn't have to go try to ask somebody if I could do this.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I just did it and it really helped him out, and I don't think that deputy has forgotten that to this day.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: He's actually a detective now, but we've still talked about that and that's why I became a lieutenant, because I could make those kinds of decisions.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: So how was the?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: How is the stress going?
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: So in four years if I'm doing the quick math, right between 2014 to 2018, you went from patrol to detective handling homicides day one, which I mean frankly you shouldn't be doing.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Homicides day one, which I mean frankly you shouldn't be doing.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I was a major crimes detective.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I was homicide for a long time and it pissed me off when my sergeant a new sergeant came in.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: They didn't know shit about shit and couldn't even spell detective and he's putting you know the new guy on a homicide and I'm like you are just missing the boat.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: So they're putting you in positions to incur stress.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: And maybe it's just my anal retentiveness and I can be a prick, but I'm like you know, you can't even.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: You don't even have a cubicle back here.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't be solving a homicide.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: You don't know shit about it.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: You can investigate way out of this office anyway.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: So then they uh.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: So you go from that to being put into a position that you're not really prepared for, but you're having having to now solve a homicide.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Within a year and two months you're promoting to patrol sergeant.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Within a year of patrol sergeant, year and a half of patrol sergeant, you're promoting back to detective sergeant to try to lead the people who have tenure over you that you were there with for 14 months.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: They know what your detective experience is and now you got to come back there as a leader and you know.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Then ultimately you promote to Lieutenant.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: But during that time, what is the stress level like?
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Because we're going to come to an implosion and we're going to come to a very bad day soon.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: What was the stress level like at work, at home?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: And tell me about that work at home and, um, tell me about that.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: So when you talk about the strep level at work, it was, it was absolutely insane.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: And when you kind of put it back, put it that way, when you're talking about I didn't mean, I didn't even think about that, it was only four years from detective to Lieutenant, you know.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: And when you think about the responsibilities and everything going on and, like you said, I mean, I mean I'll be the first to tell you.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: When I got that homicide I about and I hope we can cuss on this thing I had no clue what I was going to do.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: And luckily I had Detective Henderson with me, because I'm talking about there's some great detectives with Medford PD and they're looking at me going what are we doing?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: What are we doing?
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: And I'm looking at them basically going, uh, I don't know.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: And I I think really my saving grace there was that I was open like that.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I didn't have an ego about it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I'd say, hey, I don't know what I'm doing, can we all just work together and help me solve this?
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And so I learned a lot that way.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Right, I was always pretty open like that.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I was always able to ask questions.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't have an ego and I'd say hey, and then I would.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: That's how I learned.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: I learned so much from a man, eric Fox, and just is all these people, by being open with them and saying, hey, I don't know what I'm doing, and I'll tell you.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: For the most part, cops are pretty good about saying, okay, this guy's you know, I like the fact that he's saying he don't know what he's doing and we, let's help this guy out, let's get this done.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So they were pretty good about that.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: But when you talk about stress level, again, this is where the mistakes start to be made.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Right, you're, you're, you're just moving so fast you're not really learning.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: People do know what your detective experience is.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: And now you're the detective sergeant leading them in hand in cases and again they're looking to you.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Right, when you come on scene at an officer involved shooting, they're like, okay, sarge, what do you want to do, you know?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Or when another department, you're investigating officer shooting for another department, and I show up as a sergeant, they're like all right, what are we doing here?
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Then I get to lieutenant and it's just mind blowing, like I have no idea what's going on.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: You know, again, I'm just I'm making decisions that maybe I shouldn't have been making.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe I should have been asking permission, for I mean, I don't know if you remember the Alameda fire.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: I was oh, I actually forgot to mention this.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: So I go to be the lieutenant and then, 10 months later, the administrative CID lieutenant quits, and so now I get put in charge of both patrol and CID as a lieutenant.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: So I'm burning the candles at both ends, right, and I'll be honest with you, this was my idea.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I told the sheriff I can handle it.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I can do this Again.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Another mistake on my part.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: This is another way for me to try to sweep the pain and the stress under the rug.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I can do this.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I can handle both of these.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Now you go from being not only the patrol lieutenant, now you're the CID lieutenant too.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: You're going from working on patrol during the day, you're the CID lieutenant too, and so you're going from being working on patrol during the day to handle the administrative duties of the patrol lieutenant.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: By the way, at the beginning I have no idea what I'm doing.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: And then you go at nighttime, you get an officer involved, shooting or a homicide, and I was the kind of guy that was like I'll be there with you and so I would get out and me and my sergeant had this thing where we were.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I was the things guy, he was the.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: He worked the scene.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I was things.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I got him anything he needed, if they needed food, if they needed drinks, if they needed lighting, if they needed the fire department.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: That was my job as a Lieutenant to kind of take that off of him.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: So now I'm not only working during the day but working at night and pressure pressure's building and you're married, how is but working at night and pressure pressure's building and you're married?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: How?
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: is this affecting your family at home and your wife?
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, well, me and my wife actually ended up separating and I ended up living in our our uh, uh, fifth wheel trailer, uh, on the campgrounds as a camp host at the fairgrounds.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it was.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't good, it was just so stressful, my wife, you know.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: You know, ultimately, what we have to remember is, no matter how we look at it, they're the our family are the ones that are going to have our backs.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Our families are going to be the ones that are always there with us, no matter what, and my wife was no exception to that.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: She, my wife, always supported me, was always there with me.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: But you know, my kids suffered and my daughters will tell you.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: They'll tell you, man, you are an asshole.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think my wife just told me the other night how much of an asshole I was when I asked her, if I straight up asked her if she thought I made the right decision.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: But I mean, marriage life was not good and how I would deal with it is I'd go to work, you know, I because I could write, because I was the patrol lieutenant and the detective lieutenant, so I had every reason to be out at night, or I had every reason to be out during the day and I would jump in my unmarked car and, just you know, go say I was working traffic overtime, or whatever the case may be.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Whatever I could do to avoid the stress with my wife or the arguments with my wife, or the sadness of my kids that I put them through, just constantly feeling like I needed to work, like I just that was my work, was my saving grace, like I'm going to be out with the boys and they're going to support me and they're going to be the ones to have my backs, and you know all these things that are going through my head.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Basically, you know, in the end, my wife's exact words were if you do not go out on medical, we're getting a divorce, and she would have divorced me which means I would have.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Go ahead.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: It was your coping mechanism, man.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, some people are alcohol, some people are affairs, some people are drugs.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: How many of our sergeants have got arrested for pulling drugs out of the you know drug turn in locker?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: And it's not because that's what they strive to do or they set out to do.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: They set out to start doing a good thing, but you have this world that we live in, where the darkness is every day we're burning the candle at both ends.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: We want to do the right thing because we're small town cops working in a big city and we just don't know how to find that gray area.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: We've got the BLM movement going on, we've got defund the police, we've got all this rhetoric and noise that is completely squashing our will to live and all we want to do is do the right thing.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: You know, we see these cops out there and I was one of these cops.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Where I'm out there, I'm on the news, I am holding, you know, my shoulders back, my chest out, and we're just kicking ass and taking names, but inside I'm dying, I am absolutely crumbling.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I am a shell of the man that I was 25 years ago before starting this career, and you know, I hear the same in your story and I you know um spoiler alert.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: This is going to come to an end here pretty quick and it's going to come to a dynamic end.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Uh, and I want, I want you to tell me about that and how that occurred.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: But it's just the world that we live in, especially during that 2018 to 2022 timeframe defund the police, george Floyd, all the other political crap that was going on, the election, et cetera that puts so much downward pressure and oppression on law enforcement and it was just undue and unjust and I think I know from talking to you that also added to the stress that you were in.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Think I know from talking to you that also added to the stress that you were in.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: What happened to kind of that final day or that you got you ultimately went out on IA on some administrative leave.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Tell me about how that occurred.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, you have to remember too.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Not only did me as a lieutenant did I have it on the other end of trying to make deputies and evidence staff and record staff happy, but I take it personally with the George Floyd people too.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: And and you know, dealing with all the BLM stuff and things like that.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: So so I'll be honest.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I'm getting it coming from both ends just to feel and just overwhelmed and pressured and and, and you know, I loved being a police officer, a deputy sheriff, and it was my, it was my, my will.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: I guess you know, I'd say, but you know so constantly just working and working, and working and working, and not not separating family life and work and just constantly grinding and grinding and grinding.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: And you know, in 2018, I'm driving my unmarked patrol vehicle and I thought I was having a stroke.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: It's literally what I thought my head and started bobbing, couldn't hold my head up and I got vertigo real bad, and I was like, oh crap, lucky I was close to home, pulled into home, got out of my car and my wife happened to meet me outside and she's like what is wrong with you?
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm like I have no idea what's wrong with me right now, like to the hospital, they run their tests.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: It's vertigo.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I end up getting diagnosed with Meniere's disease, which is an interlabrith system.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Somehow.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: My stress it's also stress induced alcohol induced, caffeine induced, sugar induced but stress induced causes the inner ear to fill up with fluid and your body doesn't know which way it is, you get vertigo.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: So from 2018 to 2021, I'm still working like a champ.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm still out there trying to do everything I can redoing substations.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: You know I'd get vertigo and lay down on my couch that I put in my office and meanwhile you know I'll be honest, uh, I I tried not to let administrative know on the share, the captain and above, but they knew and nothing was ever said to me.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm not blaming them, don't get me wrong.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: But if I'm ever a captain or a sheriff, or any captains or sheriffs out there, if you got a guy that's having a medical issue, whether he wants to do it or not, you need to make sure that he's getting help.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: You need to terminate what he's got going on and be like you are not healthy.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I walked out of meetings.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: I had a sergeant one time.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget it.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: We were in a staff meeting and he walked out and he came in and he said hey, lieutenant, I got a phone call I need you to help me with and I had gotten vertigo in that meeting.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: And I walked out basically rubbing against the wall and the sergeant said I had to get you out of there.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: It was obvious.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: And he basically walked me to my office and then my detective Sergeant gave me a ride home.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: But, uh, I continued to work and just I think what you said really hit home, like it was my coping mechanism with all the stuff going on and just work, work, work, work, work.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: And uh, you know, I continued to get these pressure headaches and, like you said, it's like a pot building.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Right, it's just common, it's just a matter of time.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: I used to get these headaches and I would just be an asshole, I'd be super stressed, I couldn't control my temper, things were just going wrong and honestly, and I'm not blaming anybody but myself for it, because I could have easily walked up and said, hey, sheriff, hey Captain, I can't do this.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not blaming anybody but myself for it, because I could have easily walked up and said, hey, sheriff, hey captain, I can't do this, I'm sick.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: You know this is going on, but they knew, they knew what was going on and continued to.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: You know, allow it to to go on, and I'm not bitter to them for that.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: You know it is what it is.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: It was my decision.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: I'm a big boy.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: I made the decision to do it.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: But, you know, eventually, like you said, an implosion happens, and it did, I mean it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, I got into a conversation with a detective uh who, who I felt was being disrespectful, he doesn't agree.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Um, we sit down and I blow it and I act like a complete buffoon and I, when I say I'm professional, I was completely unprofessional.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Uh, I told them from the very beginning hey look, I screwed up.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: The captain asked me what happened.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I said I screwed up and he said well, how should we handle it?
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I said you got to hold me accountable.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I screwed up and and I just blew up on him, I just slammed the door and it was just totally inappropriate.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: You know, for several reasons, but one I'm the lieutenant, he's a detective, it's on me, like, this is on me, like, no matter what he says or does, it's on me, I'm the lieutenant, it.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: I don't want to make excuses, but I just.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I, like you said it was the pot had blew over, it was just.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: I think the detective had put it as like he thought I was trying to sabotage my career, basically.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: So they, you know, the captain tells me he's going to write me up.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I'm like, OK, great, write me up, I deserve every part of it.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: And then it turns out a couple of days later they call me and say don't come into work, you're going on an IA.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, well, what sort of IA?
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Like I told you everything, and that's another thing I wanted to slip in about IAs that I think people need to remember.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: When you're on IA, it is a lonely world, it is a you're out there by yourself and you are left to the dogs and that's how it feels anyways and I'm not saying as much comes from deputy to deputy when you're a deputy.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: But there is to me nothing wrong with a Sergeant, a captain, a Lieutenant, a Sheriff calling any one of their guys when they're on IA just to ask them how they're doing.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: They don't have to ask about the case, they don't have to answer questions to the case, but they can call that guy and say listen, I know you're on IA, we can't discuss it.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: I wanted to check and see how you're doing.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: That's how easy it is.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: And for six months while I was on IA, that never happened.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Never happened.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, I got a call from my captain, asked me to bring my patrol car in so they could change the oil.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: That's what happened.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, and and you want to talk about frustration and boiling over, even though I put myself in this own position, this is, this is all my fault, right?
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I have to be left alone.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that anybody who's being ice has to be left alone.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: They're still one of us.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: They still are people out there doing usually use use.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Most people go on IA because they made a mistake, you know, and it's they're not.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: They just get left alone on an Island somewhere and they don't know what's going on and nobody talks to them and all they have time to do is sit there and think about it.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: They're stressed out, they start drinking more and it's just not's not necessary.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Pick up the phone as a lieutenant, pick up the phone as a sergeant.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Say you can't discuss the ia, you just wanted to check on him.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: It's easy.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: That's how easy.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: It never happens, man, it never happens.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: There's a couple things I want to come back to here in a second that you've said that, like our stories are so parallel, uh, we'll touch a lot in a second.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: So you implode you out on IA.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: How does your career end up ending?
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: So I go out on IA, I go through the admin administrative review.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: I ended up having to hire an attorney.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: I think they wanted to demote me.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: The captain's recommendation was demote to sergeant.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: The captain's recommendation was demote to sergeant.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I rebuttaled that with an attorney and ended up getting two weeks suspension unpaid but was going to remain a lieutenant, which you know.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Once the second captain did the review of the initial captains who I'll tell you, we did not get along.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: The first captain, I mean I knew it was coming there, but the second captain I was, I mean I knew it was coming there, um, but the second captain I thought did a fair job.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: You know, two weeks seemed like a long time for for me blowing up, but yeah, you know I get it.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: You know I thought he did a great job, um, being fair, and I accepted it, um, but in the end I knew that, uh, you know, I started looking into PERS, medical, medical, retirement and disability and stuff and in the end I knew that I couldn't do it anymore.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: And one thing I want to revert back to is my last day on the job.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: I was a lieutenant at CID and we had a robbery at gunpoint of a gas station and I had no detectives available.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: So I had to go to it and I had a vertigo attack and I had to tell.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Luckily the guy was already gone on the freeway and drove off.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: But I had to tell the victim hey, hang on a second.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: I got vertigo.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I knew then I was done.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: This was before I got put on IA.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: But I knew then that this is too unsafe.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Could you imagine somebody relying on me for cover because they're fighting with somebody and I show up and have a vertigo attack?
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: And I mean it just, I knew then I was pretty much done, but then I ended up getting put on IA, went through the IA process and was going to get a two week suspension which I deserved, and without pay, and was going to come back.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: But I ended up deciding that, hey man, this is in the best interest of everybody in my family.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I talked it over with my, my wife, my mom, and it was just time to go.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: It was just time to.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: I remember sitting and writing my resignation letter and I bet y'all sitting in front of that computer for three hours trying to figure out what to say and, um, yeah, and that's kind of how it all went to an end.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: After six months of being on IAA, I decided um, before taking the two week suspension and the pay cut or the pay, you know, the pay loss I ended up going out on a uh medical retirement and again, till this day, still fighting with purge over that.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I still don't get that.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: So yet another thing we have in common still fighting to end it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: So what I want to do is I want to talk a little bit about a critical incident that you were involved in during your career.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: We spoke about it before, but I know this incident contributed to the stress, and I think it's important because as detectives and law enforcement, sometimes we're involved in things that we would never in a million years wish on our worst enemy, and those are some of other people's hardest days.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: Like I often say every day, I went to work with somebody else's worst day and I know you experienced that as well.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: At least on this day we're going to talk about, tell me about this incident.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Just a synopsis of what your role was, the low points of it and how that contributed to your overall stress during this period of time where you're burning the candle at both ends.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: You've got a family that's on the outs.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: There's stress there.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Whether you guys are separated or not, there's definitely stress and issues there.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: You know it's not harmonious at home.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Tell me about this incident that I'm referring to.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the incident happened up at the Umpqua Community College up by Roseburg, which is about 75 miles north of us, and they had that 10 students were killed in an active shooter incident up there and we were asked me and Detective Henderson were asked to come up and assist in the investigation, along with some detectives from Medford.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: And I remember getting up to the scene and in my mind I remember seeing a parent and it was so hectic when we got there because by the time we got there there was news media and cameras.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, the freeways were covered, cars were just parked every which way we kind of had to zigzag our way down to the command center.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: And we ended up getting there and I remember walking up seeing a parent sitting on a bench.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: He was sitting on a bench when his hands were down in his head, his head was down on his hands and he was kind of leaned over a little bit and I was thinking how surreal that was that most people see this in newspapers, they see this photo in newspapers where you'll see the media take a snapshot of something like this and put it on the front page.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm standing here looking at this guy in real time and I just remember how that I mean honestly broke me down.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: I mean it just was.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It was so surreal.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: That moment was just so, uh, is has been so ingrained in me and uh, and that's what I remember, thinking how I'm standing here looking at this guy in real time.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: This is not a photo, this is not a movie, this is real, and yeah, and so we kind of went and got our assignments and and the FBI was there.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, there were so many agencies.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Oregon State Police did a phenomenal job.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: They were the lead investigators.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Detective Harris was the lead investigator.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Amazing job, very well organized.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Everything went together very nicely.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I was super impressed, learned a ton.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: And then me and, uh, detective henderson, part of our role was to identify or interview the parents of the 10 missing children.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: And, um, we interviewed this family, uh, hispanic family, and they had a translator there and I remember we had a photo of their daughter in our hands and she was deceased and we're basically we know she's deceased.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: But because of the way state law worked, the state medical examiner couldn't release the name of any bodies until they were all positively identified.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: And so we were.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: They were transporting bodies up to Portland via you know, hearses or whatever the case may be.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: So this was a long time and our job was really just to try to to solicit information, make sure we had the right people and identify them, but without telling them that their kids were dead.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: And that's another thing that really tore me and detective Henderson up inside.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: We talked about it, um, and we we just thought it was complete garbage that we had to sit across from this family and you could see the pain, you can see the hope, you can see all the feelings that they're feeling about their missing daughter, and we literally had to.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I mean what I call lie to them, all the feelings that they're feeling about their missing daughter, and we literally had to.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: I mean what I call lie to them.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I mean they're asking us if they can check hospitals and we're telling them they can do whatever they want.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: We know she's deceased.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: We're looking at a picture of her in our hands, but we weren't legally able to tell them at that time and that was probably around, I think, two o'clock in the afternoon or so, and I remember me and Detective Henderson talking about it, thinking, man, this is just complete crap.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: This is not right, this is not how this is supposed to be.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: And we I, you know, I want to say I can't remember if it was me or Detective Henderson said we basically said we're going to go rogue and we were going to start doing our own thing and trying to figure this stuff out and get photos and figure out the fastest way to be able to tell these families that their kids are deceased.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we followed the rules.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: It didn't feel good, it didn't feel good at all, knowing that we were holding on to this information and the families were at home having to wait to get word.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: And then I think it was somewhere around 10 o'clock or so that we were finally able to notify the families.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: And me and detective henderson were assigned to a couple families to uh go let them know, and each detective had their own set of family members that they had interviewed, that they were going to go tell.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: So we told the same people that we interviewed, um, and so we went to the house of one of the victims and, uh, there was probably 30 family members in the front yard.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was family members everywhere.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: And uh, we walked into the house and uh, Jesus still gets me choked up thinking about
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: it today.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Uh, walked into the house and, uh, the mom just collapsed to her knees and the dad was kind of standing off in the corner and uh, we, we had to tell her that their daughter was dead.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And they were so mad at us and, I mean, called us.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: I don't recall how they actually said, if they said we were racist, or but they said, you know, in Spanish, and some of the other guests and family members there, rightfully so, I don't have any grudge toward them rightfully so.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: I mean I remember walking out of there thinking we deserve every bit of this and I literally didn't think we were going to make it off the front porch and luckily we had a guy with us that was a translator and he kind of did a really good job keeping things calm.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Later, and he kind of did a really good job keeping things calm and the family was just kind of yelling at us and telling us that if we didn't worried more about guns instead of, um, hispanics having driver's licenses, that this wouldn't happen.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: And uh, it was just tough.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: It was tough because I knew how me and detective henderson felt and, um, it was really hard thing to swallow, but I also understood it coming from their perspective and their side of things.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I knew where they were coming from.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even imagine having to wait eight or nine hours to just sit in agony and wonder if my daughter is still alive or not.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: And so when you talk about, I mean, I remember going home and I was telling my wife and I just couldn't wrap my brain around.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: I remember looking at the picture, the picture in the newspaper, of the 10 victims and I couldn't wrap my mind around why somebody would do this.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: When you it's a.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: It's a whole different world and cops know this right.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Firefighters know this, medical personnel know this, first responders know this stuff.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: It's a whole different world and cops know this right, firefighters know this, medical personnel know this, first responders know this stuff.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: It's a whole different world.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: When you see it firsthand and viewing it.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: You're not seeing it on the news or reading it in a paper.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: You know a lot of people see this stuff on the newspaper, on the news, and it's almost like it's a movie.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: It doesn't really happen, it's not real.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: And then you got first responders telling you yeah, it is real, this stuff really happens.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: And so that to this day still has stuck with me because it seems like one.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: The incident itself was terrible, but it seems like there's got to be a better way, when we're supposed to be public service servants and looking after the public, to treat these family members in an incident like this.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: It just didn't seem like that was right, like um, for that to happen.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: You know that nobody should ever have to wait that long when we have the answers for them, just because a state medical camera wants to give the stamp of approval.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: It's just not to me.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: It's, it's uh, it's inhumane.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: It's, it's not, it's not right.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: It's inhumane.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: It's not right, so you have Go ahead.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: It's okay, go ahead and finish your thought there.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: It just stuck it's to this day.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I have a couple cases like that that just stuck with me Again not tooting my own horn, but I think it's because I put my whole heart and soul into it and really wanted to believe that I was doing a good job as a police officer and doing exactly what the cliche is.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: Is that where they're to protect and serve and do the right thing?
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: For everything.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: So here you are, police officer for many years.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: You have worked your way up the ranks.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: It has nearly ended your marriage.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: You have experienced trauma on the street like nobody else should ever have to.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: But law enforcement does it every day.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: You have this last experience you spoke about.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: You have the other cases that stick and haunt with you when you go to bed at night.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: You know, in law enforcement we see thousands of trauma cases.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: But I'll speak for myself.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Out of the thousands of trauma cases, there is half a dozen that haunt me and the rest of them are a blur.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: And there's homicide victims where I worked their case for months and I don't even remember their name as I sit here because there was too many of them and they just all literally run together.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: So here you are.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Through this, you've come out of your career, you have left the agency.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: You and I have spoken.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: We know that when we leave the agency we are I mean, the minute we're gone, we're not even out of the office yet and somebody's claiming our desk and they want to know what they can pilfer out of our police car.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: You know, what kind of gear do we have that they don't have, and that's just the way cops are.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Um, so you leave and where yesterday you were a part of the you know the club, the following day you're can feel like a nobody.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: You feel like you're an outsider or an outcast.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: And you may get some phone calls for a minute or two, you know a week or two, a month or two, but then life goes on, the wheels keep moving and all of a sudden nobody checks on you and they don't remember your name.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: When people mention you, they're like who was that guy?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: Um, for me, I experienced as a loss of identity, and I believe you did too, based on our conversations.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: How did you handle that loss of identity?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: Have you handled it, or is it still bothering you?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: I, I am struggle with it today.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: I think I mean me and my wife wife have had several conversations about this and the loss of identity, and you know I went through some PTSD therapy that that really helped because I wasn't able to sleep and was having some dreams and things like that, and uh, um, I still haven't completely coped with do I think I'm getting better at it?
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, for sure.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, when I first left, I was one angry guy and uh, you know, I I think I had to come no-transcript and I was blaming the sheriff's office, and so I'm still trying to come to grips with that too, and so I'm still trying to come to grips with that too.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: You know, like I always wanted to be this good leader and you know, help people out, help people, help, help my team, help just be a good supervisor and a good leader.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: And I feel like I kind of blow it there.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: So am I mad at the sheriff's office for the way I was treated, or am I mad at myself for the way I let it end?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: And you know, I still deal with that every day and there's so many things that I could have done differently.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: There's so many things that I wouldn't do differently, but there's also so many things that departments and agencies can do differently, you know to to make this easier or a better transition or, um, to make you feel a little bit, a bit better about you know, like you said, just one day it's gone, right, I sent that letter off and that was it.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: I sent my resignation letter off in an email and that was it.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: It was gone, I was done.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, you don't hear from a lot of people that you think you'd hear from, that you were in the trenches with or that you did a lot for or you went to bat for, and and I get it they got busy lives, man, they they got families and kids and stuff like that too.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: But, um, I think one of the biggest things that I've learned from all this is that, um, no matter how you look at it, it's still just a job, and if you're putting your job first over your family, you're insane.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: And if people are at work giving you crap because you're putting your family first over the job, well then too bad, because in the end, those people aren't going to be around.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: It's your wife and it's your kids.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: It's going to be your family.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: I remember my mom.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: About six months after I resigned I called my mom one day and we were just having a normal conversation and she said I said well, I love you mom, and she started crying.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: And I said why are you crying?
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: And she says you know, you haven't told you, haven't told me you loved me in years and I'm like no way.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: And she's like yeah, you haven't told me.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: You loved me in years and I'm kind of wondering if that was another coping mechanism for fear of like telling my mom I love her, because I've seen death and I've seen all these bad things happen and I was afraid maybe, you know, I was trying to distance my that connection or I don't know that love connection with my mom.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it was just sad, you know, it was just sad that that my mom, that my brothers I mean people, people will tell you, even though I'm dealing with this stuff, they'll tell you I'm a different person, not even the same guy dealing with this stuff, they'll tell you I'm a different person.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not even the same guy.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: I get I mean, I get the same thing.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: It's amazing how you get out of it.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: You get a little bit removed and all of a sudden you know that shield of armor dude that you and I put on for years to keep ourselves safe and protected, and backed into a corner and multiple guns and always just head on a swivel and ready to, you know, looking for the fight condition red, yellow, green I lived in red and yellow all the time and you get out of it and all of a sudden you know that shield of armor starts to break down.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: And listening to you, I'm going to wrap this up here, but in listening to you you've said a couple of things a couple of times and I just want to recap them.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: I almost feel like I'm doing an interview right now.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: You know, in the interview room.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: I just want to recap.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: Make sure I got this, except you're not going to jail for the rest of your life.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Lessons learned Too much too fast, started during the quick progression of detective to sergeant, to this, to that.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Too much too fast.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Not enough time to establish yourself in one position.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Learn the role, be confident, be competent, before moving on to the next Family first, your family is the one that's going to be there with you when all everything else fails and the rest of your world crumbles.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Your family is going to be there.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: And finding that work-life balance while so many of us don't do that, it's very important to find that work-life balance.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Realize that this is just a job and at the end of the day, you are just an employee number.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: You may love your job.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Your job does not love you and at the end of the day, they will throw you out or under the bus in an absolute heartbeat because it's a business.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Guard your heart.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: Guard your heart from what it is that you're seeing and don't take that stuff home and let it affect you and tear you down.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: You've mentioned therapy.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: You've mentioned PTSD stuff.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's so important and this is me saying this I think it's so important for law enforcement to get that early on and make that a proactive part of their career versus a reactive part when they're trying to lick their wounds and clean up.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: And then finally watch for coping mechanisms.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Watch for the coping mechanisms.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Watch for the alcohol, drugs affairs, some uh, submersion into work, whatever that may be, where you're trying to numb yourself from the real pain that you're really going through.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, would you agree with those things?
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: I mean I a hundred percent.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: I mean you hit the nail on the head, you know.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: And I mean I 100 percent, I mean you hit the nail on the head, you know.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: And when you're sitting there saying that things, I'm thinking man, I just wish I would have not's called mindfulness training.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: And there's so many free apps and we all know about tactical breathing and all that stuff, but it's basically you know.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: To give you a quick example of it, you just kind of close your eyes, sit back and meditate.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: I do it in a group right now through the VA, and I remember thinking, man, this is weird, I don't think I could do this.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: But as I started to do it, it started to get better and better and better at it and it works.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: And it's called mindfulness training.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: You can get a free app on your app phone.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: You know it.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: It's something that's hard to get used to, but it definitely works.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: It definitely I use it when I'm driving.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: I'm using it when I get stressed.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: I'm using it when I get stressed.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: I'm using when I start to get anxiety.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and it's something that works if you use it.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: It's a good tool to have do you, do you understand the science behind that and why that works?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: um, I think a little bit, but it sounds like the way you said, that you might not, might, know more than me, which is good, um.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: I think it has to do with your breathing, slowing everything down, kind of clearing your mind.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: I'm about to bring this into perspective for you.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: Right brain, left brain.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Sympathetic nervous system.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Parasympathetic nervous system.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: We know this from DRE right.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Sympathetic nervous system speeds everything up.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: It's what keeps us going and active.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Parasympathetic is a paralyzer.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: It slows everything down.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: As police officers we work out of the sympathetic nervous system.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: So if there's a game trail in our head and the deer have to get from the back of our head to the water at the front of our head because we work in the sympathetic nervous system, they take that left side of the brain.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: That's where all their game trails are beat down.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: It's the easy path.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: Those paths are called neuro trend or neuropathways.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: It takes the neuropathways to water because that is the easiest beaten down path that we live in.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: As law enforcement officers we're always going, going, going, kicking ass and taking names the parasympathetic side of our brain or the left side of our brain.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: It does opposite side of the brain doesn't get, doesn't have any game trails, because the deer avoid it, because we never go there.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: So when we're doing meditation, yoga, adult coloring, listening to soft music, we're activating the parasympathetic side of our brain and we're detouring those deer on their game trails through the parasympathetic.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: That's why it calms us down the more that we can detour through the parasympathetic side of our brain and slow us down.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Those game trails will grow over, we'll reprogram those neural pathways from point A to point B and, before you know it, we've calmed down and we're a different person.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Sympathetic, parasympathetic, dre, that's the way it works.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny too, because a lot of cops are type A personalities, so sometimes it's hard to get the type A personalities to really sit and believe in this stuff, but it works.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, it definitely is something that that can really help.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: And then the active shooter.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: You talk about seeing that parent.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: I've been in two active shooters in my career, one in Alaska and one at uh Reynolds high school.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: The Reynolds high school, when I was one of the first guys there.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: When I arrived, uh, there was a bunch of kids coming across the parking lot to me and I got them behind a Mormon church that was across the street and I'm guiding them around.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to put them behind cover and concealment because the active shooter is still going on.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: And a mom comes up in the middle of this and she's like you know, I want Emilio, I need Emilio, my son, and I'm like ma'am, there's a thousand kids, I don't know where Emilio is at, and she goes away and then she comes back.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: She's like I need Emilio, I need Emilio, and I'm like ma'am and I'm almost rude to her.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: I'm like I need you to go over there.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: I've got too much going on, just wait.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: Emilio and mom knew the mother's instinct, knew exactly that her child, uh, was injured and she knew because of no other reason other than she knew.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: And, uh, I ended up having to give the note, the notification to her that you know, emilio was the one killed in this incident and uh, it was tough because I was an asshole.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: You know, emilio was the one killed in this incident and, uh, it was tough because I was an asshole, you know, and I was so busy wrapped up in the moment of keeping everybody safe, I didn't take the extra second to put myself in her shoes because I thought there's no way in hell.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: It's her kid that got killed and it was her kid that got killed and, um, you know it's, it's just one of those things, right, it's just what we do.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: But anyway, when you talk about the active shooter, what buddy?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Always running in red, you know always always, always.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Well, dude, I really appreciate you coming on and I appreciate you telling your story and going through it and giving those life lessons.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm hoping people are still with us and listening to this and you know to talk.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: The thing that really hit me about you tonight is you took ownership of all of your issues and your mistakes and what caused the problems that ultimately you, acting like a buffoon for five minutes, uh, you know, crumbled your career and um to own.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: That is pretty cool.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate it, man, I appreciate what you're doing, I appreciate you wanting to help others and if you need anything from me, shout out, I'll be there for you, okay.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: Dude, appreciate you having me on and what you're doing, so it's pretty awesome.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad you're.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: Dude, appreciate you having me on and what you're doing, so it's pretty awesome.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad you're able to find a why.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: You know it's pretty cool.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and our identity is not in law enforcement.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: Our identity is not a cop.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: Our identity is in human beings, children of God, husbands, fathers.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: That's our identity.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: This cop thing is like you just said it's just a job, all right guys.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: So Merge to Music is like you just said it's just a job, all right guys.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: So, uh, music this week until next time.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sticking around and, uh, be sure to check us out instagram at murders to music.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: Feel free to shoot me an email, aaron at streamlinedjcom.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: Leave a review, give it five stars, let the algorithms do the algorithmy thing.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: Have a great day and we'll talk to you next time.