Latest / Future Christian / Did Mainline Churches Give Up on Evangelism? | Francisco Herrera

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Did Mainline Churches Give Up on Evangelism? | Francisco Herrera · Future Christian

• 0:05
  Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh
• 0:14
  Martha Tatarnic: ideas, and the future of the church.
• 0:18
  Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today Loren Richmond Jr. is in
• 0:23
  Martha Tatarnic: conversation with Francisco Herrera. After completing undergraduate studies in
• 0:29
  Martha Tatarnic: viola and orchestral conducting, Francisco would come to both the Christian faith
• 0:35
  Martha Tatarnic: and Lutheran theology while continuing his music studies in Geneva, Switzerland.
• 0:40
  Martha Tatarnic: While there he also discovered that he was a polyglot, adding French and Spanish to
• 0:47
  Martha Tatarnic: the German and English he spoke on arrival. Which in turn enabled him to immerse
• 0:53
  Martha Tatarnic: himself in intensive intercultural work, whether as a language teacher, an
• 0:58
  Martha Tatarnic: interpreter for religious and secular NGOs, or in day to day life in a UN town.
• 1:04
  Martha Tatarnic: Returning to the United States to begin divinity studies in 2005, he received his
• 1:10
  Martha Tatarnic: MDIV from Chicago Theological Seminary in 2012 and began his PhD studies at the
• 1:16
  Martha Tatarnic: Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in twenty thirteen. He quickly became
• 1:21
  Martha Tatarnic: involved in activism for justice and inclusion within his home denomination, the
• 1:27
  Martha Tatarnic: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the broader United States. His primary
• 1:33
  Martha Tatarnic: academic interests orbit anything and everything around the study, support, and
• 1:39
  Martha Tatarnic: creation of intersectional church culture and community, Lutheran theology,
• 1:45
  Martha Tatarnic: postcolonial decolonial theory, and Christian socialism. A reminder before we start
• 1:51
  Martha Tatarnic: today's conversation: please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
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• 2:19
  Loren: This is Loren Richmond Jr. and I am pleased to be joined today by Dr. Francisco
• 2:23
  Loren: Herrera. Hello, welcome to the show.
• 2:25
  Francisco Herrera: doing friends, nice to meet you.
• 2:28
  Loren: Good. I'm I'm glad to have this conversation. Share just a little bit about like
• 2:33
  Loren: something interesting, who you are, what's what's happening right now.
• 2:38
  Francisco Herrera: Well, the most interesting thing in my life these days is so I've been working in
• 2:44
  Francisco Herrera: public health since I got my PhD a couple of years ago, and I am currently in the
• 2:50
  Francisco Herrera: middle of working with a group of public health organizations on the north side of
• 2:56
  Francisco Herrera: Chicago to create a cooperative to help people who are dealing with anything from
• 3:02
  Francisco Herrera: homeless to mental health problems to substance abuse and all of these things here
• 3:08
  Francisco Herrera: on the north side of Chicago. And it has brought me to work with some of the best
• 3:14
  Francisco Herrera: people who are really doing efforts to directly and immediately alleviate human
• 3:20
  Francisco Herrera: suffering. And as somebody for whom the truest litmus test of Christian mission and
• 3:26
  Francisco Herrera: of a church is if it keeps people alive,
• 3:30
  Loren: Hmm.
• 3:31
  Francisco Herrera: in the fullest sense, not just in this in the spiritual sense, psychological sense,
• 3:35
  Francisco Herrera: but also the material sense. it has been really
• 3:38
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 3:39
  Francisco Herrera: wonderful for me to work with such people.
• 3:43
  Loren: That's great. So obviously you can see the audience can't see. I'm a big baseball
• 3:45
  Loren: fan. So you'll
• 3:46
  Francisco Herrera: Yeah.
• 3:48
  Loren: forgive me, Northside, is that Cubs or is that Sox? Okay. So
• 3:50
  Francisco Herrera: That's the Cubs. That's the Cubs.
• 3:53
  Loren: we're the as we're recording this, the Sox still have a chance. Cubs have been
• 3:57
  Loren: eliminating eliminated, but I guess there was some excitement right for the city
• 4:01
  Loren: around baseball.
• 4:02
  Francisco Herrera: Mm-hmm. Yeah, cut the I'm definitely a Sox fan. the from many, many,
• 4:06
  Loren: Okay.
• 4:07
  Francisco Herrera: many friends and a lot of time on the South side of Chicago, when I go hang out at
• 4:13
  Francisco Herrera: people at Sox games, they they very much talk about the sport. I see a lot more
• 4:19
  Francisco Herrera: passion. that is not the same when you go to bars in and around Wrigley Field. I'm
• 4:25
  Francisco Herrera: I'm just gonna leave it at that.
• 4:28
  Loren: okay. Yeah, take some shots already. I like it. share if you would have kind of
• 4:32
  Loren: about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what that looks
• 4:36
  Loren: like today.
• 4:37
  Francisco Herrera: Well, the I was not raised a Christian. I was baptized on a Catholic when I was
• 4:42
  Francisco Herrera: eight days old, as so many I'm in I'm my mom's Portuguese, my dad's Mexican. And
• 4:49
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 4:49
  Francisco Herrera: but I wasn't raised in the faith because my mother sued my father for divorce. at a
• 4:56
  Francisco Herrera: time when you did not do that. And as a consequence, my mother me and my mom we we
• 5:03
  Francisco Herrera: lived in poverty for quite some years. And my mom was completely ostraciz
• 5:09
  Francisco Herrera: ostracized by people from the church as well as family. this is despite the fact
• 5:16
  Francisco Herrera: that my father sadly was a really really horribly abusive man, which is the reason
• 5:23
  Francisco Herrera: why she got divorced. but the Jesus came and found me. started in my late
• 5:30
  Loren: Hmm.
• 5:30
  Francisco Herrera: teens. Definitely sank in when I was in my early twenties when I started attending
• 5:34
  Francisco Herrera: church and reading the Bible regularly, although it was with the Church of Christ
• 5:38
  Francisco Herrera: that was my first Christian community
• 5:41
  Loren: Mm.
• 5:42
  Francisco Herrera: I spent time with a very conservative quote unquote denomination. They didn't
• 5:45
  Loren: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 5:46
  Francisco Herrera: consider themselves a denomination. Nadia Boltz-Weber was raised in this community,
• 5:48
  Francisco Herrera: for those who might know her.
• 5:49
  Loren: Right. Yeah.
• 5:52
  Francisco Herrera: but my god, those people loved me. my goodness, those people took care of me,
• 5:56
  Francisco Herrera: prayed over me, saw my full humanity. ministered to me, taught me my love of the
• 6:01
  Francisco Herrera: Bible, taught me my love of singing in worship, singing in in in church. so much of
• 6:06
  Francisco Herrera: my Yep. their
• 6:07
  Loren: Capel rate. Yeah.
• 6:10
  Francisco Herrera: churches don't have instruments. It's only singing. but the it wasn't until I moved
• 6:15
  Francisco Herrera: to Europe that I really felt I had a church community that really resonated with
• 6:21
  Francisco Herrera: the totality of who I was. It was this church called the Evangelical Lutheran
• 6:26
  Francisco Herrera: Church of Geneva. And it was I was living in Geneva Swoods One studying studying
• 6:32
  Francisco Herrera: viola and orchestra conducting, actually. my background's classical music. And I I
• 6:38
  Francisco Herrera: decided I wanted to to hear I didn't want to hear a sermon in French. I wanted to
• 6:44
  Francisco Herrera: hear a sermon in English and this was the only English speaking church that I knew
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  Francisco Herrera: of because people would talk about it, like, this is the American church. It's not
• 6:55
  Francisco Herrera: an American church. It was a church with forty seven different nationalities and
• 7:01
  Francisco Herrera: thirty nine different languages. all coming together to worship Jesus and take care
• 7:07
  Francisco Herrera: of each other. lots of diplomats or people who worked for both the World Council of
• 7:12
  Francisco Herrera: Churches and Lutheran World Federation, pastors who were regularly involved in
• 7:18
  Francisco Herrera: everything from global health to advocacy for the Palestinians, really just about
• 7:24
  Francisco Herrera: everything you can imagine. And this was really where my faith was nurtured. But
• 7:29
  Francisco Herrera: they were also an incredibly multicultural congregation in the truest sense. We
• 7:35
  Francisco Herrera: sang in 20 different languages. we regularly had preachers from all over the world.
• 7:41
  Francisco Herrera: and that's really where my faith was truly formed. and then after that I moved came
• 7:47
  Francisco Herrera: here to the United States, entered seminary, and it's been all downhill from there.
• 7:53
  Loren: any spiritual practices you're willing to share that
• 7:55
  Francisco Herrera: Mm.
• 7:56
  Loren: you find meaningful?
• 7:58
  Francisco Herrera: From all sin, from all error, from all evil, I love to sing from the cutting
• 8:04
  Francisco Herrera: assaults of the devil, from an unprepared and evil God, good Lord deliver us. Every
• 8:12
  Francisco Herrera: day I walk a total of seven miles a day, both for my health and for my spirit. And
• 8:19
  Francisco Herrera: I start every day by singing
• 8:22
  Loren: Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  Francisco Herrera: the Great Litany in the Evangelical Lutheran worship hymnal. Number 238. I've
• 8:29
  Francisco Herrera: committed it to memory. and in addition to regular worship attendance and prayer,
• 8:36
  Francisco Herrera: when I'm having especially difficult times, I say the rosary. I've yeah. So that's
• 8:42
  Francisco Herrera: that's it. And and and also
• 8:45
  Loren: Hm. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful.
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  Francisco Herrera: a good chunk of my piety is tied in my into my advocacy for my my neighbors and my
• 8:55
  Francisco Herrera: friends.
• 8:56
  Loren: Yeah.
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  Francisco Herrera: you you don't there is a power and a beauty in the way that you see and feel the
• 9:04
  Francisco Herrera: presence of God when you're helping someone who is struggling with addiction, when
• 9:12
  Francisco Herrera: you're helping someone clean out an an an open unhealing wound,
• 9:19
  Loren: Hm.
• 9:19
  Francisco Herrera: when you are helping to raise money for someone who's lost their job because of.
• 9:25
  Francisco Herrera: psychotic collapse. And I would say in addition to faith practices, I have to say
• 9:31
  Francisco Herrera: on some level, this kind of advocacy is also intimately tied to my my piety.
• 9:38
  Loren: Hmm. Well, thanks for sharing all that. So I had Francisco
• 9:41
  Francisco Herrera: Mm.
• 9:42
  Loren: on to talk about his article from the Christian century published this summer,
• 9:48
  Loren: Donald McG Donald McGavron's Complicated Legacy. And yeah, I I think let's start
• 9:54
  Loren: with this. So I certainly come from a mainline disciples of Christ tradition. And
• 10:01
  Loren: like I don't think I'd heard of Donald McGavin until You know, I I I'd heard of him
• 10:08
  Loren: from evangelical context, but never to my recollection discussed in a mainline or
• 10:14
  Loren: disciples of Christ context. So do you want us talk talk who was Don McGavrin and
• 10:21
  Loren: how did you come across his work?
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  Francisco Herrera: Well it so Donald McGavren is arguably one of the two most influential
• 10:31
  Francisco Herrera: missiologists of the twentieth century. the one I first got to know him because of
• 10:40
  Francisco Herrera: my reading of Leslie Nubegin, who was
• 10:44
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Francisco Herrera: originally was a Presbyterian, but he eventually ended up becoming a bishop in the
• 10:50
  Francisco Herrera: Church of South India. Where he spent the vast majority of his career, much like
• 10:56
  Francisco Herrera: McGavron. however, McGavron was the the way that the two of them approached their
• 11:01
  Francisco Herrera: ministry was very different, and what they became known for was very different.
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  Francisco Herrera: Whereas McGavrin spent a great deal of time in his own way talking about what are
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  Francisco Herrera: ways that contemporary the contemporary church can really adapt and to be more
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  Francisco Herrera: relevant and connect with. modern society, post-World War II society. McGavryn's
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  Francisco Herrera: focus as he became known more globally for was for this thing called the
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  Francisco Herrera: homogeneous growth unit. And the whereas of course evangelism and outreach were
• 11:34
  Francisco Herrera: very important for Nubegin as as a member, as a as a bishop in the Church of South
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  Francisco Herrera: India, right? When they they as a new denomination that formed in the wake of the
• 11:45
  Francisco Herrera: British Empire leaving Britain. I mean leaving India. McGavrin was really concerned
• 11:51
  Francisco Herrera: specifically with getting as many people to come into the church as possible. this
• 11:57
  Francisco Herrera: was a major concern for much of his career. certainly evangelism and conversions
• 12:02
  Francisco Herrera: were really important to him because he really saw the power and the primacy of of
• 12:08
  Francisco Herrera: Christ. And he took Christ's command in Matthew twenty eight, go into the world and
• 12:14
  Francisco Herrera: disciple all nations, you know, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and
• 12:19
  Francisco Herrera: the Holy Spirit. He took that very seriously. And the that's how he centered his
• 12:25
  Francisco Herrera: his life. And each of them had their own spheres of influence. each of them had
• 12:30
  Francisco Herrera: their followers and detractors. And I at some point I realized, especially as the
• 12:36
  Francisco Herrera: father of the church growth movement, I should probably get to know his works
• 12:41
  Francisco Herrera: because coming from more mainline spaces, he was seen as obviously being very
• 12:46
  Francisco Herrera: problematic. There's no question about that.
• 12:50
  Loren: Right. Right.
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  Francisco Herrera: and how his emphasis on homogeneous units directly fed into white flight and to
• 12:57
  Francisco Herrera: systemic racism and the grinding of of white bias and white supremacy into the
• 13:05
  Francisco Herrera: mortar of countless churches of the US. so it's obviously kind of important for me
• 13:13
  Francisco Herrera: to understand that. And so starting in 2022. I sat down and started to actually
• 13:21
  Francisco Herrera: read more of him. And I really started in 2020 in preparation for some of my my
• 13:29
  Francisco Herrera: exams during my studies. But I really ramped it up in 2022 and it was really pretty
• 13:38
  Francisco Herrera: impressive and very unexpected. I ended up liking the guy, and started to deeply
• 13:46
  Francisco Herrera: empathize with him. And his frustrations
• 13:50
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 13:51
  Francisco Herrera: and his aspirations. And you know, I clearly still have difficulties with some of
• 13:57
  Francisco Herrera: the things that he wrote about and his, especially his way of dealing with his
• 14:03
  Francisco Herrera: evangelical colleagues from other parts of the world. But in the main,
• 14:09
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 14:10
  Francisco Herrera: this there was a lot to deeply admire about this man. What was especially really
• 14:15
  Francisco Herrera: shocking to realize, this man who was so whose whose whose emphasis on homogenous
• 14:21
  Francisco Herrera: units and how that worked together with white flight to create these white,
• 14:27
  Francisco Herrera: conservative, Christian, often regressive, now you would even say Christian
• 14:33
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 14:34
  Francisco Herrera: nationalist communities in the United States, completely
• 14:37
  Loren: Yeah.
• 14:39
  Francisco Herrera: went against the actual life this man lived. A life that was deeply immersed in
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  Francisco Herrera: Personal sacrifice and testimony and advocacy on behalf on behalf of every
• 14:51
  Francisco Herrera: persecuted community among whom he would do he was doing ministry. Whether it was
• 14:58
  Francisco Herrera: the African community here in the United States, whether it was the Dalit community
• 15:05
  Francisco Herrera: in India. Not to mention somebody who the great call of his life to
• 15:11
  Loren: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Francisco Herrera: really to to to to welcome people into into faith with Jesus and to bring literally
• 15:21
  Francisco Herrera: the whole world into the church, was largely treated suspiciously, if not
• 15:26
  Francisco Herrera: dismissively, by most of his career colleagues. I also relate to that, being a very
• 15:32
  Francisco Herrera: progressive Christian myself, and you know, I I it it it's it stupefies me that
• 15:37
  Francisco Herrera: whenever I mention the importance of evangelism or church planting, or how
• 15:42
  Francisco Herrera: important it is to bring people to Jesus. A lot of my colleagues
• 15:47
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:49
  Francisco Herrera: look at me funny. Or and
• 15:51
  Loren: Yeah.
• 15:52
  Francisco Herrera: the so the I I deeply related to that as well. And just his incredible passion, you
• 15:59
  Francisco Herrera: know. again, I relate to that too. I'm a man of strong passions. and sometimes it's
• 16:06
  Francisco Herrera: difficult to function when you're a person with strong passions. that's just how it
• 16:13
  Francisco Herrera: is. but the But a man who sincerely lived out his faith in in a way that
• 16:19
  Francisco Herrera: encompassed a lot of personal sacrifice. and I th I think his his personal story is
• 16:26
  Francisco Herrera: one worth really delving into and his his writings worth engaging.
• 16:32
  Loren: Yeah. So I think this is so fascinating and I really appreciate you you bringing
• 16:37
  Loren: even this to light for me in our conversation now and initially before we start
• 16:43
  Loren: recording. For our audience, share more about the context like of the disciples of
• 16:48
  Loren: Christ or the main line in which he was serving. 'cause again, like I've I've been
• 16:54
  Loren: a part of the Disciples of Christ tradition, gosh, twenty years now, maybe. And
• 17:00
  Loren: like missionary work was I mean certainly there's some I don't want to dismiss
• 17:05
  Loren: there's some missionary efforts, but certainly like evangelism and church planning
• 17:11
  Loren: like you mentioned, I don't think it talked about enough. So share more about the
• 17:16
  Loren: context of the denomination, the mainline context when McGavin was really in his
• 17:22
  Loren: prime and then what he did with that.
• 17:25
  Francisco Herrera: Well, when McGavrin was first hired, because he was actually commissioned, he and
• 17:28
  Francisco Herrera: his wife were both commissioned as missionaries.
• 17:31
  Loren: Okay.
• 17:32
  Francisco Herrera: So they were they were pa they were colleagues in ministry. they were both
• 17:34
  Francisco Herrera: commissioned
• 17:35
  Loren: Okay.
• 17:36
  Francisco Herrera: as missionaries by the disciples of Christ. And I believe in nineteen twenty two.
• 17:42
  Francisco Herrera: And they were then sent on a joint mission to India. And when they were there,
• 17:48
  Francisco Herrera: McGavrin was principally involved with Christian education. So his job was to
• 17:54
  Francisco Herrera: oversee, design, and implement programs for Christian education at essentially
• 18:00
  Francisco Herrera: these Christian missionary compounds in India. I I want to say northern India, but
• 18:06
  Francisco Herrera: I'm not 100% sure. And honestly, this was where he first started really seriously
• 18:13
  Francisco Herrera: addressing injustice because at the time, the case system, of course, was still
• 18:19
  Francisco Herrera: very much in place, still is. And it
• 18:22
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 18:22
  Francisco Herrera: happened with some regularity that uppercase. Indian families and Indian Christians
• 18:28
  Francisco Herrera: would insist that their children be educated separate from Christians that came
• 18:33
  Francisco Herrera: from
• 18:34
  Loren: Mm.
• 18:35
  Francisco Herrera: families that were part of the Dalit community or as untouchables is has as Gandhi
• 18:37
  Francisco Herrera: used the term.
• 18:38
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 18:41
  Francisco Herrera: And often threatening to leave, you know, take away support. And McGavrin
• 18:47
  Francisco Herrera: consistently said, no, we're not doing
• 18:51
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 18:51
  Francisco Herrera: that. We are all one in Christ. And we need to live that way. And
• 18:57
  Loren: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Francisco Herrera: the what started off as his advocacy for the Dalit in his schools would then, as he
• 19:04
  Francisco Herrera: was start working with other Indian Christians and with Dali Christians, would
• 19:10
  Francisco Herrera: extend itself into going and doing things to keep them safe when families would try
• 19:16
  Francisco Herrera: to organize reprisals against. families or individuals who converted, sometimes to
• 19:22
  Francisco Herrera: the point that some families would even try poisoning Christian members of their
• 19:28
  Francisco Herrera: family who had who had who had converted to Christianity.
• 19:33
  Loren: Wow.
• 19:34
  Francisco Herrera: And so it just kind of expanded from there. He would go to court, help people in
• 19:39
  Francisco Herrera: court proceedings when when families were trying to sue converted Christian Indian
• 19:45
  Francisco Herrera: Christians to take their land or to to just in general you know legal harassment
• 19:51
  Francisco Herrera: like he it was consistent throughout his entire time in India. And the you know,
• 19:57
  Francisco Herrera: reading about these things just was was really just kind of stupefying. for me my
• 20:03
  Francisco Herrera: favorite example of this also, I didn't I wasn't able to write about this in the
• 20:09
  Francisco Herrera: article. but you know, as I mentioned, people from his so his sort of his overseers
• 20:15
  Francisco Herrera: in the in the in the missionary organization he was working with in India, the when
• 20:21
  Francisco Herrera: he was on furlough from nineteen thirty-eight to nineteen forty. He petitioned
• 20:27
  Francisco Herrera: people and the disciples of Christ. hey, I want to raise money for evangelism
• 20:32
  Francisco Herrera: efforts in India, can I? And they said, sure, go ahead. They didn't give him any
• 20:38
  Francisco Herrera: money.
• 20:39
  Loren: Hm. Mm-hmm.
• 20:40
  Francisco Herrera: So he spent his two years on furlough raising $25,000.
• 20:47
  Loren: Hmm.
• 20:47
  Francisco Herrera: the equivalent of I'm I believe like half a million dollars today, specifically
• 20:53
  Loren: Wow.
• 20:55
  Francisco Herrera: to fund. indigenous efforts of church planting and evangelism in India. So this
• 20:59
  Francisco Herrera: money was not going to him. Like he he developed a grant process and they had to
• 21:04
  Francisco Herrera: meet certain stipulations and everything. And so he spent two years while on
• 21:09
  Francisco Herrera: furlough raising all this money. And he goes back to India and in nineteen forty.
• 21:13
  Francisco Herrera: And pretty quickly it it gets a little hard to find people that qualify like
• 21:18
  Francisco Herrera: They're supposed to have a certain number of people that they're already working
• 21:23
  Francisco Herrera: with. They have to pass certain exams on their faith just to kind of have certain
• 21:27
  Francisco Herrera: connections. And people aren't really qualifying for this all this money he raised.
• 21:32
  Francisco Herrera: However, pretty soon after that, a famine broke out.
• 21:36
  Loren: Hm.
• 21:36
  Francisco Herrera: And what he ended up doing essentially was spending half of this money over the
• 21:43
  Francisco Herrera: course of about a year or two keeping people alive. He coordinated public
• 21:50
  Loren: Hmm.
• 21:51
  Francisco Herrera: works projects, like he would get people to go and collect little bits of like
• 21:55
  Francisco Herrera: limestone that would then be ground down to make lime that could be used for
• 21:59
  Francisco Herrera: construction, which was then used to help
• 22:02
  Loren: Okay.
• 22:03
  Francisco Herrera: to pave roads. he coordinated job programs to clear out underbrush or to as well as
• 22:08
  Francisco Herrera: to give like to help peop to give people money to pay off their mortgages or to buy
• 22:14
  Francisco Herrera: equipment for their farmlands. He wasn't able to use this money for the intended
• 22:19
  Francisco Herrera: purpose, but he saw the need and he didn't even hesitate. This money needs we need
• 22:25
  Francisco Herrera: to keep these people alive. And the same thing happened a little later towards the
• 22:31
  Francisco Herrera: end of the war. when there the the region where he was apparently the British
• 22:36
  Francisco Herrera: colonial government was afraid that Japan was going to try to invade a particular
• 22:42
  Francisco Herrera: area in India. And so they created a forced migration. They moved all these people
• 22:47
  Francisco Herrera: out. Well they have to relocate. They don't have any means or to do anything,
• 22:53
  Francisco Herrera: right? And so
• 22:54
  Loren: Right.
• 22:54
  Francisco Herrera: once again McAverin steps in with the rest of that money and spends it to get to
• 23:01
  Francisco Herrera: help to set up refugee camps. To help people with food, to help people with any of
• 23:10
  Francisco Herrera: any of their needs. How can you not pause knowing this about him? that
• 23:17
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 23:18
  Francisco Herrera: he would spend two years of his life raising a massive amount of money specifically
• 23:24
  Francisco Herrera: to help to develop indigenous efforts by Indian Christians to evangelize and create
• 23:31
  Francisco Herrera: churches. But when he saw that there was a greater need, didn't even hesitate and
• 23:38
  Francisco Herrera: put all of these resources specifically towards keeping Indians alive. the
• 23:44
  Loren: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Francisco Herrera: the I mean wow. You know, the it it's just
• 23:52
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:54
  Francisco Herrera: I I mean i there's no there's nothing else she can say.
• 24:02
  Loren: So he kept coming back to this idea and and you've shared this. He kept coming to
• 24:06
  Loren: this back to this idea of the importance of evangelism.
• 24:09
  Francisco Herrera: Mm-hmm.
• 24:12
  Loren: And you've you said he he just didn't find that same emphasis within the disciples
• 24:18
  Loren: of Christ. Like what was that about, do you know?
• 24:22
  Francisco Herrera: Well, I mean, think about think about progressive Christians today, right? That
• 24:28
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 24:29
  Francisco Herrera: I mean, they don't really talk much about church planting, not too many. There are
• 24:32
  Francisco Herrera: some
• 24:33
  Loren: Right.
• 24:34
  Francisco Herrera: very lovely exceptions, but for the most part, it's not a major priority. certainly
• 24:40
  Francisco Herrera: not for I
• 24:41
  Loren: Right.
• 24:41
  Francisco Herrera: mean it might be within very, very, very small segments of the of denominational of
• 24:45
  Francisco Herrera: certain people in the denomination, but again, very small. And As a consequence,
• 24:50
  Francisco Herrera: the attitude hasn't necessarily changed. When he was over there, there was really
• 24:55
  Loren: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Francisco Herrera: more concern for social uplift, for creating hospitals, providing education, doing
• 25:01
  Francisco Herrera: all perfectly beautiful, wonderful, valid things, right?
• 25:05
  Loren: Right.
• 25:05
  Francisco Herrera: especially when you're working with the Dalit community, many of whom, this is one
• 25:10
  Francisco Herrera: of the really deep ironies I try to explain to friends of mine, is that the
• 25:15
  Francisco Herrera: missionary project in India was actually of great benefit to many Dalits. And
• 25:20
  Francisco Herrera: especially as somebody who has many many Christian friends who are Dalit, that
• 25:26
  Francisco Herrera: their family was actually able to get out of absolutely crushing poverty and class
• 25:31
  Francisco Herrera: discrimination because of Christian missionaries, and get access to education, to
• 25:37
  Francisco Herrera: be able to go to to to be able to start to develop their lives economically to To
• 25:42
  Francisco Herrera: start to be able to see the world more differently, to travel, to go abroad. Like
• 25:48
  Francisco Herrera: these were things that were made possible by Christian missionaries. And so there
• 25:53
  Francisco Herrera: were very good things, right? Focusing on social uplift. But McGavrin saw all of
• 25:59
  Francisco Herrera: that on some level as being hollow if you weren't also bringing people into the
• 26:04
  Francisco Herrera: faith. And it was
• 26:06
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 26:08
  Francisco Herrera: the fact that his own emphasis and call to really Do more with evangelism in India
• 26:16
  Francisco Herrera: and the fact that it was regularly discounted by his superiors that ultimately made
• 26:24
  Francisco Herrera: him go all in on evangelization when he ended his career in India, took an early
• 26:32
  Francisco Herrera: retirement at significant expense to himself. he literally
• 26:38
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 26:38
  Francisco Herrera: left. He if he I think I remember I was reading if he had only stayed in service
• 26:43
  Francisco Herrera: just two more years, he would have had a significantly more more stable and
• 26:48
  Francisco Herrera: generous retirement, but he didn't. He just was so eager to get back out there and
• 26:54
  Francisco Herrera: to really start focusing on evangelization that he left his retirement earlier to
• 27:00
  Francisco Herrera: his detriment. And but he saw he saw the the need for it. And so he he just, like I
• 27:06
  Francisco Herrera: said, he just went all in.
• 27:08
  Loren: So so part of this then from his desire to go all in eventually led him to more
• 27:11
  Loren: evangelical context. Do you want to share more about that transition?
• 27:14
  Francisco Herrera: Yep. Well well they were the ones that took it that that took him seriously. he
• 27:19
  Francisco Herrera: essentially worked as so when he left India he was able to qualify for a grant
• 27:25
  Francisco Herrera: where he literally traveled all over the world. He traveled to the Caribbean, he
• 27:31
  Francisco Herrera: traveled to Africa, I think he was also in Asia, to study efforts of church growth
• 27:37
  Francisco Herrera: in these parts of the world. the term that he would often use is people movements.
• 27:42
  Francisco Herrera: And this is sort of where it
• 27:45
  Loren: Hm. Okay.
• 27:46
  Francisco Herrera: started. This was a term that I've I'm trying to look up the name of the author and
• 27:51
  Francisco Herrera: I'm not finding it. I'm trying to find my notes. but the there was there was a a
• 27:57
  Francisco Herrera: scientist and a Christian who had written this book that was talking about talking
• 28:03
  Francisco Herrera: about the movement of the church in India. and the growth of the church in India
• 28:09
  Francisco Herrera: and he talked about these people movements where instead of it just being
• 28:14
  Francisco Herrera: individual conversions that there were in you know entire families or villages that
• 28:20
  Francisco Herrera: would convert in mass. And
• 28:22
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 28:24
  Francisco Herrera: of course McGavern and this parti I really wish I could remember his name, this
• 28:30
  Francisco Herrera: this this author, you know, connected and did a lot of work together. And so he
• 28:36
  Francisco Herrera: wanted to see if this was true in other places. So he then got this grant. after he
• 28:42
  Francisco Herrera: he you know resigned his commission in India and then spent several years traveling
• 28:48
  Francisco Herrera: across the globe and seeing if this if these same factors played out elsewhere if
• 28:55
  Francisco Herrera: when if churches did indeed grow more quickly and more robustly when, as he said,
• 29:01
  Francisco Herrera: people were becoming Christians without crossing class, racial and ethnic barriers.
• 29:07
  Francisco Herrera: which was a major convent, that's almost word for word from his book, Understanding
• 29:14
  Francisco Herrera: Church Growth. And so he
• 29:16
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 29:16
  Francisco Herrera: he studied this, started, you know, writing, and then he said, you know what, I I
• 29:21
  Francisco Herrera: need to teach this. I I need I need to do some set up shop someplace. And so he
• 29:27
  Francisco Herrera: went to Northwest Christian College, which was in at the time in Eugene, which is
• 29:32
  Francisco Herrera: in Eugene, Oregon. They have a different name now, and set up essentially what He
• 29:38
  Francisco Herrera: called his institute for church growth. Now, it wasn't a fancy thing. He didn't
• 29:43
  Francisco Herrera: really have much access to money, really. He just had an office and a desk and one
• 29:49
  Francisco Herrera: student. But he was so convinced, he was so dedicated to the cause and to his his
• 29:55
  Francisco Herrera: call that he stuck with it. And within short order. he started what he was writing
• 30:00
  Francisco Herrera: and talking about started to resonate especially with evangelical circles. so he
• 30:06
  Francisco Herrera: when he left India, he decided, you know, he he really wanted to delve into the
• 30:11
  Francisco Herrera: whole thing around, you know, homogeneous growth units and and people movements and
• 30:17
  Francisco Herrera: stuff for the sake of evangelization. The big reason behind this too was because he
• 30:23
  Francisco Herrera: saw pretty clearly that there was a massive amount of interest in the church and
• 30:28
  Francisco Herrera: Christianity in general globally. And but whereas the the mainline denominations
• 30:34
  Francisco Herrera: were largely pulling out of global evangelism. Because of concerns for association
• 30:40
  Loren: Yeah.
• 30:40
  Francisco Herrera: with colonialism, not to mention the fact that missionaries were being kicked out
• 30:44
  Francisco Herrera: from many countries that were kicking off the yoke of colonialism, either French or
• 30:50
  Francisco Herrera: British. and as a consequence, there was a a a very much a reduced interest on the
• 30:55
  Francisco Herrera: part of many to engage in evangelism, not to mention just the danger to the lives
• 31:00
  Francisco Herrera: of the people who are working as missionaries.
• 31:03
  Loren: Right, right.
• 31:03
  Francisco Herrera: At the same time, though, there was ironically an incredible increase in interest
• 31:08
  Francisco Herrera: in the faith and of people becoming Christians. And McGavern saw this. And so he
• 31:13
  Francisco Herrera: wanted to make sure that the church could really rise to the occasion and that we
• 31:18
  Francisco Herrera: could bring as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, into the faith and
• 31:23
  Francisco Herrera: to start the process of you know making the world a Christian planet and more, you
• 31:28
  Francisco Herrera: know. in love with Jesus and more kind and more generous and more, you know, to do
• 31:33
  Francisco Herrera: the kinds of good things to love their neighbor like he did when he was in India.
• 31:38
  Francisco Herrera: And so as a consequence, he when he first came back to the US, he kind of wandered
• 31:43
  Francisco Herrera: around for a long time. a chapter of a really lovely book about his early years
• 31:48
  Francisco Herrera: calls is titled Peripatetic Professor of Christian Missions, which is what he was.
• 31:54
  Loren: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 31:56
  Francisco Herrera: Like he just taught wherever he could, gave classes and seminars. Frequently that
• 32:01
  Francisco Herrera: involved him actually taking students on trips to be active of the civil rights
• 32:07
  Francisco Herrera: movement and activities related to the civil rights movement in the fifties and
• 32:12
  Francisco Herrera: sixties. Until eventually he had the chance to actually start an institute for
• 32:18
  Francisco Herrera: church growth at this place called Northwest Christian College, in Eugene, Oregon
• 32:24
  Francisco Herrera: in 1965. And so with one student and literally a desk in an office, No funding, no
• 32:29
  Francisco Herrera: nothing, he started his work. And but he very quickly caught on and he got his
• 32:35
  Francisco Herrera: writings and his efforts came to the attention of people at Furlo Theological
• 32:40
  Francisco Herrera: Seminary in Pasadena. And after he continued his research and continued his
• 32:46
  Francisco Herrera: writings by eventually working with also his students who would also do research
• 32:51
  Francisco Herrera: along with him just to see. what the intricacies of church growth were in other
• 32:57
  Francisco Herrera: parts of the world. And then in 1968 he was approached by people at Fuller
• 33:02
  Francisco Herrera: Theological Seminary to become the dean of what was their school of global
• 33:08
  Francisco Herrera: evangelism. And he said yes. And so then he went to Fuller and continued his
• 33:13
  Francisco Herrera: research and was there for just a couple of more years. And then eventually he
• 33:18
  Francisco Herrera: published this book, Understanding Church Growth. where he specifically talks about
• 33:24
  Francisco Herrera: homogeneous the homogeneous units. He has a really impressive use of data, not only
• 33:30
  Francisco Herrera: quantitative data in terms of numbers and how quickly can churches in different
• 33:36
  Francisco Herrera: parts of the world were growing, but also qualitative data, like you know, talking
• 33:42
  Francisco Herrera: and interviewing people and understanding how the faith impacted their life. It was
• 33:47
  Francisco Herrera: pretty new and and impressive
• 33:50
  Loren: Right.
• 33:50
  Francisco Herrera: for the time. And
• 33:52
  Loren: Yeah.
• 33:53
  Francisco Herrera: so and this caught fire. the evangelical movement at the time was very much
• 33:59
  Francisco Herrera: starting to heat up. both you know, as we start having all of these different
• 34:05
  Francisco Herrera: conferences throughout the middle of the 20th century and the 50s and sixties, and
• 34:12
  Francisco Herrera: as they're starting to kind of, you know, the evangelical movement is starting to
• 34:18
  Francisco Herrera: understand itself independently of what had been essentially associations with the
• 34:25
  Francisco Herrera: mainline for many decades. and McGavron's writings resonated very powerfully with
• 34:32
  Francisco Herrera: them. And so they lifted him up. And it was from then this from this whole process
• 34:38
  Francisco Herrera: that McGavrin became really, really closely associated with evangelicalism and that
• 34:45
  Francisco Herrera: his writings his writings were lifted up. And so the that's sort of where that
• 34:52
  Francisco Herrera: transition began. but eventually too, that's when the problems also began, right?
• 34:58
  Francisco Herrera: the
• 34:59
  Loren: Yeah, share more.
• 35:00
  Francisco Herrera: so the I think an important thing to talk about with McGavrin is that the
• 35:05
  Francisco Herrera: homogenous growth room unit as he saw it, he learned about the contexts of the
• 35:12
  Francisco Herrera: homogenous growth unit in places like India, Nigeria, Korea, Puerto Rico, places
• 35:18
  Francisco Herrera: that
• 35:19
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 35:21
  Francisco Herrera: Where Christians were, if not in the minority, were didn't really have a lot of
• 35:27
  Francisco Herrera: power. And they were just kind
• 35:30
  Loren: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Francisco Herrera: of organizing themselves in very beautiful ways and in ways that showed a vibrancy
• 35:37
  Francisco Herrera: and a vitality with the faith. And he spent quite a bit of time among them learning
• 35:43
  Francisco Herrera: from them and observing how they approached their outreach and their communities.
• 35:49
  Francisco Herrera: And he took all of these ideas. and wrote this book. But of course, when you're
• 35:55
  Francisco Herrera: talking about using culture and language and ethnicity, and as a consequence,
• 36:00
  Francisco Herrera: understands morality of ethics, but you are
• 36:04
  Loren: Right.
• 36:05
  Francisco Herrera: in a a rural community someplace in in Nigeria, as opposed to
• 36:13
  Loren: Yeah.
• 36:13
  Francisco Herrera: coming and working among white people in urban areas in the United States, During a
• 36:19
  Francisco Herrera: particularly volatile
• 36:21
  Loren: Yeah.
• 36:22
  Francisco Herrera: time in our history with the civil rights movement and with second-wave feminism
• 36:28
  Francisco Herrera: and all kinds of political movements at the time, the impact of such ideas was very
• 36:35
  Francisco Herrera: different. And
• 36:37
  Loren: Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 36:38
  Francisco Herrera: the to their credit, there were many evangelicals that very quickly saw the
• 36:43
  Francisco Herrera: negative potential for the homogenous growth units and its impact. on not just in
• 36:50
  Francisco Herrera: the in the United States but the global church. And very early on, already in
• 36:56
  Francisco Herrera: nineteen seventy-four, at the first big conference of of the global evangelical
• 37:02
  Francisco Herrera: movement in Lausanne, Switzerland, there were already significant critics that were
• 37:09
  Francisco Herrera: pointing out
• 37:10
  Loren: Hmm.
• 37:10
  Francisco Herrera: the way that talking about homogeneous units in the United States has very, very
• 37:16
  Francisco Herrera: different impact than talking about them in Andhra Pradesh in northern India. And
• 37:22
  Francisco Herrera: that
• 37:23
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 37:24
  Francisco Herrera: it enshrined culture and enshrined bias in a way that would undergird white
• 37:32
  Francisco Herrera: supremacy and that would undergird
• 37:36
  Loren: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Francisco Herrera: American power and culture in a way that would be extraordinarily detrimental to
• 37:44
  Francisco Herrera: other ethnic communities other other Christian communities of other races, other
• 37:51
  Francisco Herrera: backgrounds. And the they push back quite vociferously. So the but unfortunately,
• 37:58
  Francisco Herrera: McGavrin, for whatever reason, completely as the as John John Mott would point out,
• 38:06
  Francisco Herrera: he's an evangelical thinker, he would say, He would wr he wrote in a in a journal
• 38:13
  Francisco Herrera: entry for that whenever faced with these critics, McGaver and his followers would
• 38:20
  Francisco Herrera: pull down the shutter of their minds. They just wouldn't listen to them. With
• 38:27
  Francisco Herrera: McGavrin, I'm certain on some level
• 38:31
  Loren: Mm, mm.
• 38:32
  Francisco Herrera: there was also an element of kind of affront because he had spent so much of his
• 38:36
  Francisco Herrera: life advocating for racial and ethnic justice. He had spent so much of his life
• 38:41
  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:42
  Francisco Herrera: making significant sacrifices. To help people and to encourage them to let the
• 38:46
  Francisco Herrera: gospel to move among them and to develop their churches in ways that actually
• 38:51
  Francisco Herrera: resonated with who they were as a people, who that resonated with their languages,
• 38:56
  Francisco Herrera: with their cultures, with their music. That was such an important part of his
• 39:00
  Francisco Herrera: entire career. How could suddenly all these people turn around and say that he was
• 39:05
  Francisco Herrera: racist? That he was he
• 39:07
  Loren: Yeah.
• 39:07
  Francisco Herrera: was supremacist? How could they do that?
• 39:10
  Loren: Yeah.
• 39:10
  Francisco Herrera: But even though McGavrin himself may not have been. Clearly his defensiveness did
• 39:15
  Francisco Herrera: not help. And in the end, he his hit Yep.
• 39:19
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good lesson right there.
• 39:23
  Francisco Herrera: And his and his and this happens a great di great deal also in progressive circles.
• 39:27
  Francisco Herrera: How many people who they
• 39:29
  Loren: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Francisco Herrera: say, you know, you know, white pastors or white activists say, you know, I'm, you
• 39:34
  Francisco Herrera: know, I'm constantly fighting for racial justice. I'm at this protest, I'm helping
• 39:38
  Francisco Herrera: to coordinate this effort over here. But they'll have a c a black or brown
• 39:42
  Francisco Herrera: colleague or an immigrant colleague say, hey, but you know, but what about this?
• 39:46
  Francisco Herrera: You know, you but you said this about about Mexicans, like like what's going on
• 39:50
  Francisco Herrera: with that. But as opposed to listening
• 39:52
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 39:53
  Francisco Herrera: and actually trying to learn or to change or to to show humility, many get
• 39:59
  Francisco Herrera: defensive. And that's exactly what happened
• 40:03
  Loren: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Francisco Herrera: here. and the and that defensiveness sadly never ch didn't change. and McGavron at
• 40:09
  Francisco Herrera: would at later times of course write and you know say that you know that of course,
• 40:16
  Francisco Herrera: you know, I I mean I'm not at all for the the advocacy for for any kind of bigotry
• 40:23
  Francisco Herrera: or racism or exclusionary practices. but he would say
• 40:28
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 40:29
  Francisco Herrera: but if w but he would he would always default to but the reality is if we want
• 40:32
  Francisco Herrera: churches to really grow, they need to have a certain element of homogeneity to
• 40:36
  Francisco Herrera: them. And that was that was his line and he stuck
• 40:39
  Loren: Right.
• 40:40
  Francisco Herrera: to it. And even the the article that really embodies this the most is by a guy
• 40:46
  Francisco Herrera: named C C. René Padilla. he was a evangelical theologian from Latin America, and he
• 40:53
  Francisco Herrera: has an entire article that he wrote specifically, I believe was published in 1977
• 40:59
  Francisco Herrera: or 78, where he explicitly debunks the idea that the early church was homogenous,
• 41:06
  Francisco Herrera: which was Much of what McGavern talks about, that this
• 41:11
  Loren: Right right.
• 41:13
  Francisco Herrera: homogeneity was what helped it to grow. And he systematically goes through and
• 41:17
  Francisco Herrera: breaks that down, looking at, of course, the fact that one of the most definitive
• 41:21
  Francisco Herrera: moments of the early church, the Pentecost, right, brought together all these
• 41:25
  Francisco Herrera: people from different languages and cultures
• 41:28
  Loren: Right, right.
• 41:30
  Francisco Herrera: together. The fact that there's an early tension between Greek-speaking Jews and
• 41:36
  Francisco Herrera: non-Greek-speaking Jews. There are also class distinctions
• 41:41
  Loren: Right.
• 41:42
  Francisco Herrera: that exist there because the Greek stinking
• 41:44
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 41:44
  Francisco Herrera: Greek-speaking Jews tended to have a bit more money than those that didn't. And so
• 41:49
  Francisco Herrera: there was this constant variety that was at play in the early church, not to
• 41:54
  Francisco Herrera: mention just the different cultures and the influx of new converts from other parts
• 42:00
  Francisco Herrera: of the Roman Empire and all of the religious and s and ethnic concerns they brought
• 42:06
  Francisco Herrera: in. They always found a way to work through things. homogeneity was not
• 42:11
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 42:14
  Francisco Herrera: was not a major factor in the early church that helped to helped it to grow and
• 42:18
  Francisco Herrera: grow more quickly which was a big contention of McGavrons and the
• 42:23
  Loren: Yeah.
• 42:25
  Francisco Herrera: Padilla's article as well as his constant criticism of McGavrin on this score
• 42:31
  Francisco Herrera: started at the in the very started in the 70s already and so the The fact that
• 42:37
  Francisco Herrera: there was such incredible pushback so early on in the release of the book
• 42:43
  Francisco Herrera: Understanding Church Growth is really telling too about the quality and the the
• 42:49
  Francisco Herrera: intellectual acuity and concern for justice among the evangelical movement, which
• 42:55
  Francisco Herrera: unfortunately
• 42:57
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 42:58
  Francisco Herrera: many of my colleagues don't really know about because of you know how
• 43:02
  Loren: Right.
• 43:02
  Francisco Herrera: the evangelical movement has evolved in recent years. You can talk with people,
• 43:05
  Francisco Herrera: especially
• 43:06
  Loren: Yeah.
• 43:07
  Francisco Herrera: like Song Chung-Ra, he's he's a missiologist, also teaching at Fuller right now.
• 43:09
  Francisco Herrera: He's been screaming
• 43:10
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:12
  Francisco Herrera: about this nonstop since 2017, 2016. And so that that concern for racial and ethnic
• 43:18
  Francisco Herrera: justice and for for class justice and stuff is always consistently there, but it
• 43:24
  Francisco Herrera: hasn't it hasn't always been particularly dominant or won out because of just the
• 43:30
  Francisco Herrera: sheer weight of class and racial advantage that has gotten sort of locked into the
• 43:37
  Francisco Herrera: United States. And these these were factors that ultimately lifted up McGavrin as
• 43:43
  Francisco Herrera: as a a tool not to bring people into the church, not to go out into the world and
• 43:49
  Francisco Herrera: to be adaptive to culture and and all of these things, but that as a way to
• 43:55
  Francisco Herrera: consolidate power and influence. And it's really,
• 43:59
  Loren: Yeah.
• 43:59
  Francisco Herrera: it's it's really quite sad.
• 44:03
  Loren: So you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about McGavrin and reading his
• 44:08
  Loren: work. Like what do you think? Answer this how you want to, whether you know, from
• 44:13
  Loren: an evangelical context. I mean, certainly I I I think about from a mainline
• 44:18
  Loren: context, what do you think his legacy, like what should we do with him today? Maybe
• 44:23
  Loren: start with a mainline, because certainly 'cause that's where I'm most interest
• 44:28
  Loren: interest interested in. Like, what do you think his legacy should be, if that makes
• 44:33
  Loren: sense?
• 44:34
  Francisco Herrera: Well, you know, first of all, his legacy is the homogenous growth unit. And
• 44:39
  Francisco Herrera: unfortunately, that is always going to be the negative consequences of such is
• 44:45
  Francisco Herrera: pretty much always going to be there, sadly. Like we can't really get away from
• 44:51
  Francisco Herrera: that. The
• 44:52
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 44:54
  Francisco Herrera: Even if it was not necessarily McGavrin who was the one who created
• 44:59
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 45:00
  Francisco Herrera: that, right? something that I talk about quite a bit with people was what we
• 45:04
  Francisco Herrera: consider to be these negative, very exclusionary practices that benefit whiteness
• 45:09
  Francisco Herrera: and and and classism and racism, was largely developed by his followers, people
• 45:14
  Francisco Herrera: that came after him and that were largely in charge of the church
• 45:18
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 45:20
  Francisco Herrera: growth movement from the 70s and 80s and through the 90s. But the so we have to
• 45:25
  Francisco Herrera: contend with that. but in that respect,
• 45:28
  Loren: Yeah.
• 45:29
  Francisco Herrera: I like to try to I kind of think a good parallel to look at him. And this was I I
• 45:35
  Francisco Herrera: see him very much in line with this guy named Thomas Midgley Jr. when I
• 45:42
  Loren: Okay.
• 45:43
  Francisco Herrera: was originally planning on writing this article, I thought about actually comparing
• 45:48
  Francisco Herrera: the two of them. So Thomas Midgley Jr. was a very was a really a revolutionary,
• 45:54
  Francisco Herrera: deeply respected chemist in the United States. Who worked quite a bit to find ways
• 46:00
  Francisco Herrera: to use good old science and physics and all kinds of stuff and technology to make
• 46:06
  Francisco Herrera: life better. And two of the most pressing concerns, and he worked for corporate
• 46:11
  Francisco Herrera: America, so he was he was concerned about making money, but he also was trying to
• 46:17
  Francisco Herrera: address very real needs. And two of the things that he spent his time working on
• 46:23
  Francisco Herrera: was the development of affordable, cheap, And easily produced coolants to be able
• 46:28
  Francisco Herrera: to help for things like refrigeration, as well as things that helped to make car
• 46:34
  Francisco Herrera: engines run better. And those two innovations that he spearheaded were the
• 46:39
  Francisco Herrera: production and creation of lead and gasoline and the creation
• 46:44
  Loren: Okay.
• 46:44
  Francisco Herrera: of chlorofluorocarbons. During his life, he was very much celebrated as a
• 46:49
  Francisco Herrera: pioneering thinker. And you know, deeply respected and you know feted and
• 46:55
  Francisco Herrera: everything. but of course, as the 20th century continued, we would start to see the
• 47:02
  Francisco Herrera: results of these
• 47:04
  Loren: Yeah.
• 47:05
  Francisco Herrera: innovations of his. Because of course, the creation of lead and gasoline then cre
• 47:10
  Francisco Herrera: you know led to this massive amount of poisoning of you know, putting lead into the
• 47:15
  Francisco Herrera: atmosphere, into the water, into everywhere, and the detrimental impacts that has
• 47:21
  Francisco Herrera: on human health. in learning outcomes for children, in crime.
• 47:25
  Loren: Right.
• 47:27
  Francisco Herrera: and but these were things that nobody knew at the time. It just was a solution to a
• 47:31
  Francisco Herrera: very pressing need and problem. And likewise the the creation
• 47:35
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 47:35
  Francisco Herrera: of chlorofluorocarbons. The creation of chlorofluorocarbons or CFCs enabled the
• 47:41
  Francisco Herrera: creation of very in really inexpensive and widely usable refrigeration units,
• 47:47
  Francisco Herrera: right? So refrigeration is a good thing. It keeps medicine viable and fresh.
• 47:53
  Loren: Right.
• 47:53
  Francisco Herrera: It helps to keep food viable and fresh and fight spoilage. Like there were so many
• 47:58
  Francisco Herrera: good things that came from us having chlorofluorocarbons,
• 48:02
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 48:03
  Francisco Herrera: air conditioning units, and everything. But that rather ingenious solution at the
• 48:09
  Francisco Herrera: time, we would eventually discover was creating serious damage to our ozone layer.
• 48:15
  Francisco Herrera: And so
• 48:16
  Loren: Hm.
• 48:16
  Francisco Herrera: I kind of see in the gaverin that. You know, as I mentioned earlier, when we start
• 48:20
  Francisco Herrera: going into the you know the the the post-war years in the United States and in the
• 48:25
  Francisco Herrera: globe, he saw this massive interest in the Christian church. He saw this massive
• 48:30
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 48:31
  Francisco Herrera: interest in, you know, people really wanting to become Christians and wanting to
• 48:35
  Francisco Herrera: come to the church and an incredible explosion of cultural, linguistic and artistic
• 48:40
  Francisco Herrera: and you know, expression that was deeply moving to him because he had spent decades
• 48:45
  Francisco Herrera: of his life engaged in just those those things. I mean, he was so enamored of the
• 48:50
  Francisco Herrera: people of Indian culture that within just a couple of years of his beginning his
• 48:55
  Francisco Herrera: ministry career, he actually won an award for being able to read and write poetry
• 49:00
  Francisco Herrera: in Sanskrit. Sanskrit. And, you
• 49:02
  Loren: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 49:04
  Francisco Herrera: know, not to mention the fact that he regularly produced worship materials and
• 49:09
  Francisco Herrera: reading materials and Bible translations in all these different languages. So th it
• 49:14
  Francisco Herrera: was something that resonated very powerfully for him. And he saw The beauty of sort
• 49:19
  Francisco Herrera: of this explosion of indigenous Christian identity all over the globe. And so he
• 49:24
  Francisco Herrera: wanted to do things to help that. And he wanted to take the lessons that he was
• 49:30
  Francisco Herrera: learning from other parts of the world, from Africa, from Asia, from Central and
• 49:35
  Francisco Herrera: South America and the Caribbean, and share them with the world. But their impact in
• 49:40
  Francisco Herrera: the United States was incredibly detrimental. And so I
• 49:44
  Loren: Hmm.
• 49:45
  Francisco Herrera: but but there are insights that he has. And I think you know, we it's even fair to
• 49:50
  Francisco Herrera: say there's nothing really wrong with having community with people that you
• 49:54
  Francisco Herrera: resemble. there's
• 49:56
  Loren: Yeah.
• 49:56
  Francisco Herrera: nothing wrong with that at all. Like, you know, I think about how many immigrant
• 50:00
  Francisco Herrera: communities, right? They come to the United States
• 50:04
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 50:04
  Francisco Herrera: from a certain part of the world, and you you know, you'll have people coming over
• 50:09
  Francisco Herrera: on family visas and different connections, and next thing you know, you'll have A
• 50:15
  Francisco Herrera: sizable chunk of say either here in in Chicago or in Minneapolis or wherever coming
• 50:21
  Francisco Herrera: from countries like Somalia or Thailand or from Nigeria
• 50:25
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 50:26
  Francisco Herrera: or wherever, even from different tribal communities in these different countries.
• 50:30
  Francisco Herrera: Of course they're gonna want to form churches with each other. Of course they're
• 50:35
  Francisco Herrera: going to want to have worship in the language of their communities, of course
• 50:40
  Francisco Herrera: they're going to want these things. Having the the sociological term is is a
• 50:44
  Francisco Herrera: homophyla. you know, birds of a feather flock together, right? Having neighbors and
• 50:49
  Francisco Herrera: community members that resemble you, that share your struggles, that share your
• 50:54
  Francisco Herrera: pain, that understand your language, that you don't have to translate your feelings
• 50:59
  Francisco Herrera: for. that
• 51:00
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 51:01
  Francisco Herrera: you, you know, there there's a comfort in that, there's a beauty in that, and
• 51:04
  Francisco Herrera: arguably it's it's not only easier to love one another when you resemble each other
• 51:08
  Francisco Herrera: well. But I think it's also fair to say that on some level the spirit works a bit
• 51:11
  Francisco Herrera: more powerfully that way too. Like the people know you, like they relate to you,
• 51:15
  Francisco Herrera: they under
• 51:16
  Loren: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 51:19
  Francisco Herrera: they truly understand you because you come from a similar background.
• 51:21
  Loren: Yeah.
• 51:23
  Francisco Herrera: and so these aren't bad things, but when in the context of the United States, with
• 51:29
  Francisco Herrera: such a long history of racial, class and ethnic exclusion and violence, It it can
• 51:36
  Loren: Yeah.
• 51:36
  Francisco Herrera: it was the ideas around the homogenous growth unit were really, really horribly
• 51:41
  Francisco Herrera: applied. and they became an incredible vehicle for white flight. And
• 51:47
  Loren: Yeah.
• 51:47
  Francisco Herrera: the what happened eventually is just these white communities would get up and leave
• 51:51
  Francisco Herrera: their urban contexts and they would just take their money with them and they would
• 51:55
  Francisco Herrera: quietly or loudly justify it as well, but they don't really appreciate our culture.
• 52:00
  Francisco Herrera: We're going to preserve our good Christian culture. We're going to preserve our our
• 52:04
  Francisco Herrera: our
• 52:05
  Loren: Right.
• 52:06
  Francisco Herrera: our sense of holiness and our understanding of what it means to be an American,
• 52:08
  Francisco Herrera: right? And all of those biases
• 52:10
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 52:12
  Francisco Herrera: we're just cooked in.
• 52:15
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is a r yeah.
• 52:17
  Francisco Herrera: And I think and and so and so that the the the and so that sadly is is part of the
• 52:21
  Francisco Herrera: legacy that that we we we are gonna have to live with. I do however wanna
• 52:26
  Loren: Yeah.
• 52:26
  Francisco Herrera: add one other thing because I I also want to speak to what I think McGavern would
• 52:30
  Francisco Herrera: like for his legacy to be re to to be. And I say this as
• 52:33
  Loren: Yeah.
• 52:34
  Francisco Herrera: someone who deeply empathizes with McGavern and I even get a little bit offensive
• 52:38
  Francisco Herrera: about him, is that he would, however,
• 52:40
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 52:40
  Francisco Herrera: want his legacy to be that of somebody who did everything he could. To bring people
• 52:47
  Francisco Herrera: into community with Christ, that he'd spent so much of his life wanting nothing
• 52:53
  Francisco Herrera: more than to bring more of the goodness of God into the world and to bring people
• 53:00
  Francisco Herrera: into
• 53:01
  Loren: Hm.
• 53:01
  Francisco Herrera: the love of Christ and to know the love of God through Christ. And that he was
• 53:06
  Francisco Herrera: willing to undergo significant societal, economic, and personal sacrifice to make
• 53:12
  Francisco Herrera: that happen.
• 53:13
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 53:14
  Francisco Herrera: And I I I and I I think in many respects he was right. largely today, especially
• 53:20
  Francisco Herrera: here in the US, and especially among the white main line and progressive quote
• 53:27
  Francisco Herrera: unquote progressive Christians.
• 53:30
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 53:33
  Francisco Herrera: We often when we look we we kind of look and we sort of see the you know their that
• 53:37
  Francisco Herrera: the the the general understanding of what it means to be a Christian in the United
• 53:42
  Francisco Herrera: States, people don't think about us. People don't think about the Lutherans, don't
• 53:47
  Francisco Herrera: really
• 53:48
  Loren: Yeah.
• 53:48
  Francisco Herrera: think about the Methodists, don't really think about the Presbyterians. They tend
• 53:49
  Francisco Herrera: to look at the evangelical community, right? That that tends to be the more public
• 53:51
  Francisco Herrera: face of Christian of Christianity. And of
• 53:52
  Loren: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 53:57
  Francisco Herrera: course, obviously there are really bad things with that. We see that with the
• 54:00
  Francisco Herrera: ex-evangelical movement. we'll see that also certainly
• 54:03
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 54:04
  Francisco Herrera: among religious nuns. much of my academic work has been in these communities and
• 54:10
  Francisco Herrera: talking with people that either leave the church completely or who leave the at
• 54:16
  Francisco Herrera: least their more conservative churches just because of horrible abuse and exclusion
• 54:23
  Francisco Herrera: and all these things. But I see the flip side of this is the fact that but our
• 54:29
  Francisco Herrera: nice, wonderful, progressive. Inclusive churches completely abandon Christ's call
• 54:36
  Francisco Herrera: to go out and make disciples. What
• 54:39
  Loren: Hmm. Hmm.
• 54:42
  Francisco Herrera: would have happened? If we would have heeded McGavrin back in the 50s and 60s and
• 54:49
  Francisco Herrera: continued with all fervor and all love to bring people into the into the community
• 54:56
  Francisco Herrera: of Christ, what would have happened if instead of completely backing out of the
• 55:04
  Francisco Herrera: global church and global evangelism or even evangelism here in the US, what would
• 55:11
  Francisco Herrera: have happened?
• 55:13
  Loren: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Francisco Herrera: If we would have continued with that love and did our best to change and to grow
• 55:18
  Francisco Herrera: and to learn from all these different cultures and to and to and to expand how we
• 55:23
  Francisco Herrera: understand the way the church goes. Because one thing I will that's I think is
• 55:27
  Francisco Herrera: really unavoidable when you're looking at more conservative Christian communities,
• 55:32
  Francisco Herrera: the Pentecostals and evangelicals, also, they are incredibly racial diverse. The
• 55:37
  Francisco Herrera: racial diversity is enormous.
• 55:39
  Loren: Right, right.
• 55:40
  Francisco Herrera: Why?
• 55:41
  Loren: Yeah.
• 55:42
  Francisco Herrera: Because they fundamentally prioritize evangelism and listening to the call of the
• 55:46
  Francisco Herrera: spirit, which is not necessarily a priority among a lot of the mainland
• 55:50
  Francisco Herrera: denominations. They also,
• 55:52
  Loren: Yeah.
• 55:53
  Francisco Herrera: many of these churches come from rather poor communities. We get
• 55:57
  Loren: Right.
• 55:58
  Francisco Herrera: the phrase mainline because the understanding, the idea was that these churches
• 56:03
  Francisco Herrera: would appear along the main lines of transportation in these cities, either the
• 56:08
  Francisco Herrera: metro or bus
• 56:09
  Loren: Right.
• 56:09
  Francisco Herrera: lines. And so there was already an association with economic uplift and class, that
• 56:15
  Francisco Herrera: these were urban and they were along what is essentially popular and economically
• 56:22
  Francisco Herrera: viable conduits for commerce and society in urban areas. So that's where mainline
• 56:28
  Francisco Herrera: came
• 56:29
  Loren: Right.
• 56:30
  Francisco Herrera: from. Well, and those also have class and race
• 56:32
  Loren: Right.
• 56:32
  Francisco Herrera: distinctions as well. And so
• 56:34
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 56:35
  Francisco Herrera: what would have happened then if we would have heeded this call? And we would have
• 56:41
  Francisco Herrera: had I don't know, missionaries who were involved with the civil rights movement who
• 56:47
  Francisco Herrera: then went to some other part of the world to establish a church because they didn't
• 56:53
  Francisco Herrera: see any difference between the two calls. What would have happened if Christians
• 56:59
  Francisco Herrera: who were, you know, committed to racial justice and gender equality had you know,
• 57:05
  Francisco Herrera: carried those experiences over from their mainline churches and gone, you know, to
• 57:12
  Francisco Herrera: to to Korea, which has a you know obviously a sizable Christian community these
• 57:18
  Francisco Herrera: days, what would have happened, right?
• 57:21
  Loren: Right.
• 57:22
  Francisco Herrera: And how much more inclusive the global church might have become if the mainline
• 57:28
  Francisco Herrera: hadn't largely abandoned evangelism in the 20th century,
• 57:33
  Loren: Hmm.
• 57:34
  Francisco Herrera: in the second half of the 20th century. And
• 57:37
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 57:37
  Francisco Herrera: I for me that is my my big quandary. And all of this really goes back to what which
• 57:44
  Francisco Herrera: was really my first involvement with McGavrin. there was an article that he
• 57:51
  Francisco Herrera: published in 1968 called Will Uppsala Betray the Two Billion? And he specifically
• 57:58
  Francisco Herrera: wrote an article about criticizing. What was then the preliminary program for the
• 58:06
  Francisco Herrera: the global meeting of the World Council of Churches in Uppsala, Sweden in nineteen
• 58:13
  Francisco Herrera: sixty-eight. And so, you know, here he
• 58:17
  Loren: Okay.
• 58:18
  Francisco Herrera: is, this man who is deeply tied to the global church, deeply tied to justice and
• 58:22
  Francisco Herrera: liberation, deeply tied to so many of the things that we would consider good
• 58:26
  Francisco Herrera: Christians to do, but he also loved evangelism. And he reads this program, and
• 58:30
  Francisco Herrera: there's very little about bringing people into Jesus. very little if nothing about
• 58:35
  Francisco Herrera: evangelism. And so he writes
• 58:37
  Loren: Hmm. Yeah.
• 58:39
  Francisco Herrera: this article where he says, why is this? There are two billion people in the planet
• 58:44
  Francisco Herrera: who have not been evangelized. Are we just going to abandon them? And he's quite
• 58:50
  Francisco Herrera: adamant. He goes, I am not against justice and liberation efforts. I am not against
• 58:55
  Francisco Herrera: social uplift. These things are all super very important. And as Christians it is
• 59:01
  Francisco Herrera: part of our call to help to to to better the law. of our neighbor and to be a light
• 59:07
  Loren: Uh-huh.
• 59:08
  Francisco Herrera: for justice and freedom and life in the world. But if we do that without Jesus,
• 59:16
  Loren: Mm.
• 59:16
  Francisco Herrera: if we do that at the expense or think that somehow not talking about Jesus, not
• 59:23
  Francisco Herrera: evangelizing is somehow part of that, then we're missing the point.
• 59:29
  Loren: Right. Yeah.
• 59:31
  Francisco Herrera: And and that was how I I first engaged him, was reading this article. And and I I
• 59:36
  Francisco Herrera: have to admit, on some level, I I had to kind of agree with him. The
• 59:41
  Loren: Hmm.
• 59:42
  Francisco Herrera: what what would this world have been like if some of the heroes of our
• 59:47
  Francisco Herrera: denominations who were active in justice and community health and and global
• 59:53
  Francisco Herrera: liberation and theological efforts If they would have also continued a broad
• 59:59
  Francisco Herrera: support for evangelism, not just here in the US but across the globe? What would
• 1:00:05
  Francisco Herrera: have happened if we had never lost that evangelical fire of sharing Jesus and
• 1:00:12
  Francisco Herrera: creating communities that love people, that that that dig deep into them a love of
• 1:00:18
  Francisco Herrera: reading scripture and of praising God? what
• 1:00:22
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  Francisco Herrera: would have happened? And so the the it's in that respect that I I have to admit I I
• 1:00:32
  Francisco Herrera: deeply I deeply relate to McGavrin and I I I
• 1:00:37
  Loren: Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  Francisco Herrera: I agree with his lament. I will be for I will be forever critical of him and even a
• 1:00:43
  Francisco Herrera: little mad at him that he turned himself to be a significant hypocrite by not
• 1:00:47
  Francisco Herrera: listening to what
• 1:00:49
  Loren: Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Francisco Herrera: See René Padilla and Orlando Costas is Samuel Escobar, the evangelical Latin
• 1:00:54
  Francisco Herrera: American theologians who criticized him starting in the seventies. I will be
• 1:00:58
  Francisco Herrera: forever angry at him for that. of course there are many things that I, you know, I
• 1:01:03
  Francisco Herrera: have to say, you know, I have to part ways with him. But I relate to his passion. I
• 1:01:07
  Francisco Herrera: relate to his love for Jesus. And I especially relate
• 1:01:11
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 1:01:13
  Francisco Herrera: to the intensity with which he worked to make sure that he could reach people to
• 1:01:17
  Francisco Herrera: the point of learning different languages and Working with people to adapt the
• 1:01:21
  Francisco Herrera: message of the gospel to the different cultures and to their music and to
• 1:01:25
  Francisco Herrera: everything. And that's something that I that I don't really see as much among many
• 1:01:30
  Francisco Herrera: of my friends. And I wish I did. because I love Jesus. And and
• 1:01:34
  Loren: Well yeah.
• 1:01:36
  Francisco Herrera: the the healing and the beauty that I have experienced in the arms of the church
• 1:01:40
  Francisco Herrera: are I mean, the the there's a reason why I left what was a career in classical
• 1:01:45
  Francisco Herrera: music and became a a a professional Christian, right? I know what's possible and I
• 1:01:49
  Francisco Herrera: see
• 1:01:50
  Loren: Hm. Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:51
  Francisco Herrera: it in many places, right? And I I would like to think that that would be his his
• 1:01:55
  Francisco Herrera: part of his legacy too. That people can, you know, accept just like with the
• 1:01:59
  Francisco Herrera: church, right? The the Christian church has a lot of baggage attached to it for
• 1:02:03
  Francisco Herrera: very good reasons, right? And remember, one of the big reasons why there was such a
• 1:02:07
  Francisco Herrera: a a reticence to do evangelism in the wake of World War II was because Missionaries
• 1:02:12
  Francisco Herrera: were kicked out of many countries because they often collaborated with colonial
• 1:02:16
  Francisco Herrera: authorities. Like there's there are reasons for this. But what would have happened
• 1:02:21
  Loren: Right. Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:26
  Francisco Herrera: if we would never have lost that love? What would have happened if we had never
• 1:02:30
  Francisco Herrera: lost that passion and we would continue to share Jesus with power and authority and
• 1:02:35
  Francisco Herrera: beauty and love? What kind of churches would we have in this country? What kind of
• 1:02:40
  Francisco Herrera: foothold would white nationalism have had if, in addition to public advocacy? And
• 1:02:45
  Francisco Herrera: fighting for political and economic parity. So many of these progressive Christians
• 1:02:51
  Francisco Herrera: would have also been planting churches. What would have happened?
• 1:02:55
  Loren: Hmm.
• 1:02:56
  Francisco Herrera: What kind of toehold could white supremacy have made in this country? Or how much
• 1:02:59
  Francisco Herrera: less of a toehold could it
• 1:03:00
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  Francisco Herrera: have made if we would have been there in the
• 1:03:03
  Loren: Yeah.
• 1:03:04
  Francisco Herrera: fight too, not just advocating for political and economic parity, but also for
• 1:03:11
  Francisco Herrera: Jesus? These are questions
• 1:03:14
  Loren: Yeah.
• 1:03:14
  Francisco Herrera: that I ask myself.
• 1:03:17
  Loren: Well, I think I think when we started rec before we started recording, Francisco,
• 1:03:22
  Loren: you had mentioned this idea of of writing a book, a biography. I think you have to
• 1:03:27
  Loren: do it now. So Dr. Francisco Herrera, I really appreciate your time. The article is
• 1:03:33
  Loren: Donald McGavrin's complicated legacy. I'll make sure to include the link to the
• 1:03:38
  Loren: article in the show notes. Do you have anywhere, any places else people can connect
• 1:03:44
  Loren: with you and your work?
• 1:03:46
  Francisco Herrera: Well, the two places where you can find me in my work most readily, so I have a
• 1:03:52
  Francisco Herrera: Patreon where I do a lot of writing on especially on the relationship between
• 1:03:57
  Francisco Herrera: political theology and you know, general Christian witness. But I also do write
• 1:04:03
  Francisco Herrera: quite a bit about Christian worship and I write Christian devotional music. I'm in
• 1:04:10
  Francisco Herrera: the last stages of collecting a book of Christian devotions for or songs on
• 1:04:15
  Francisco Herrera: Christian devotion as I write for pain, pleasure, and protests that I call I Cry
• 1:04:22
  Loren: Hmm.
• 1:04:23
  Francisco Herrera: Out. so there are Christian
• 1:04:25
  Loren: Hmm.
• 1:04:25
  Francisco Herrera: contemporary Christian protest songs, songs of
• 1:04:28
  Loren: Okay.
• 1:04:29
  Francisco Herrera: lament, as well as what I am calling mystical Christian erotic Christian devotional
• 1:04:35
  Francisco Herrera: music. music
• 1:04:37
  Loren: Hmm.
• 1:04:37
  Francisco Herrera: a music that celebrates pleasure and sex
• 1:04:42
  Loren: Okay.
• 1:04:42
  Francisco Herrera: and sexuality, but not just Incarnality and it's not just about sex, it's also just
• 1:04:49
  Francisco Herrera: about friendships and relationships, even food. and those that's some something
• 1:04:56
  Francisco Herrera: that I'll be coming out in recent in in the coming months. yeah, but I have a
• 1:05:02
  Francisco Herrera: Patreon page. the address is Patreon dot com forward slash polyglot evangel
• 1:05:09
  Francisco Herrera: P-O-L-Y-G-L-O-T evangel E-V-A-N-G-E-L. All one word. So Patreon.com forward slash
• 1:05:16
  Francisco Herrera: polyglodevangel. And then find me on Facebook. That's where I'm the most active.
• 1:05:23
  Francisco Herrera: Likewise also Facebook.com forward slash polyglodevangel. If you want to keep up
• 1:05:30
  Francisco Herrera: with me, see where I'm at, that's where you can find me.
• 1:05:35
  Loren: Well, I I really appreciate your time and your your passion for this topic and your
• 1:05:39
  Loren: willingness to share. So I we always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's
• 1:05:44
  Loren: peace be with you.
• 1:05:46
  Francisco Herrera: Thank you, and also with you.