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Summer House Deep Dive: Recapping Kyle & Amanda's Relationship Story · Syllabus

• ashby intro: Hey syllabus listener, Ashby here. Quick note, in this episode, Coco takes us on a deep dive of Kyle and Amanda's relationship arc from the beginning of Summer House up to present day in 2026. We recorded this episode before the latest scandalous news broke about West and Amanda and the related controversy. If you just want to hear our shocked reactions to that latest drama, head back to the feed for our emergency episode on West, Amanda, Disloyalty, and Discourse. Ashby: and occasionally getting lost in a tangent. If you too can't help but think a little too deeply about books movies and more you come across you're in the right place. Coco: Welcome to Syllabus, the podcast hosted by two recovering straight-A millennials, Ashby and Coco, We are so glad you're here. Ashby: Let's get into it. Coco: who live to overanalyze the media and culture we encounter ⁓ while shedding the gold star culture that made us, ashby intro: And a final editor's note, Coco would like to make it clear that she retracts her earlier comments in this episode about West being quote, cool. All right, enjoy the show. Coco: Ashby. Very excited to be talking to you today about Summer House, ⁓ a show ⁓ that I have been talking about to you or at you for years. ⁓ And ⁓ as we are saying, the theme the podcast just excuse to talk about the things you want to talk about. ⁓ And so, you know, today we're going to be doing a slight Ashby: Okay. Hello, Coco. Mm-hmm. Coco: deep dive into just one thread kind of within the show, which is the Kyle Cook and Amanda Batula relationship. And I'm really excited for you to be here as a non-viewer, non-kind of regular viewer of the show, but ⁓ for you to maybe, you know, add in some stuff, commentary around some of the themes that we're seeing. But before we dive into Summerhouse, I just wanted to ask you about your kind of relationship to reality TV. Like what are some of the things that you like in a reality TV show ⁓ and what's your relationship to Bravo? Ashby: Yes, so we talked about this before, but I'm not like as big of a Bravo head. ⁓ So, you know, when we like went away on your bachelorette trip, I think was the most I'd ever been exposed to it. ⁓ And even in that, I got a little exposure to Summerhouse because you'd be surprised that there are a lot of Etsy creators making some amazing, like themed stuff for fans of all these properties. And one thing I kept seeing over and over again was like sweatshirts and party banners and stuff that would say summer should be fun. Okay, good. And then, ⁓ you know, I feel like I'm interested in it in as much as it crosses into my properties. So like ⁓ when they had Ariana Maddox on Dancing with the Stars, then I was like, well, gotta get the backstory. And I'd like listen to a bunch of interviews with her or watch the different clips and roundups and stuff like that. But, ⁓ Coco: We're gonna talk about summer should be fun. ⁓ Yeah. Ashby: Like actually watching the show itself, I struggle. I struggle with watching those shows. There's like this high jinx music that comes in. Coco: The music is fascinating and I have gone back to some of the original seasons and boy, that free or very low cost just ambient reality TV music is wild. Ashby: Mm-hmm. You know, I don't know. it seems like the goal is for someone to be the absolute most righteous person ⁓ in some type of interpersonal conflict. ⁓ So I find that challenging. So the things that I like in reality TV things that have like, Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: more of a structure. like Dancing with the Stars certainly has drama, but the drama is not the point. I like things that have like a competition element or a creativity element. Coco: Uh-huh. Ashby: And I used to enjoy watching The Bachelor or The Bachelorette with like roommates when I had a lot of roommates. I wasn't really, I didn't like take it that seriously, but it was like a nice kind of bonding, bonding activity. So I think that's kind of like, I'm, I'm turned off. I'm turned off by the hijinks music and the conflict. ⁓ Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's, think it's really fun to talk about because I do enjoy like the re the franchise Real Housewives. I watched several cities and like, I do like that. And there's elements that the where the conflict is really heightened and kind of elevated where someone not inviting someone to a party gets played out over like multiple episodes. And you know, kind of as a fan, like, you know the language of the show. So some of it you're like kind of fine with and it's fun. ⁓ It's like really gossip territory. ⁓ And then there's also these sort of suite of shows like Summer House, Southern Charm, kind of classic Vanderpump rules, the different, the Valley, Southern hospitality, where they're all kind of. co-ed shows. ⁓ And they feature, you know, overall a slightly younger demographic. Now, one of the stats that people like to say is that Kyle Cook is technically older than JD Vance. So when we're saying younger, we don't actually mean that young. a lot of these people who have been especially on shows for a long time are like about the same age as me. ⁓ So it's kind of like watching like a it's to some degree a peer group and younger. ⁓ And the kind of coed drama produces a lot of very interesting kind of gender dynamic things. And I get very wrapped up in the drama of the shows. But also, I'm always so curious about the way that the shows and the conflicts or drama or whatever we want to call it are being talked about. I would say Summer House is my favorite of all of these kind of properties ⁓ for the reasons of kind of having some of that, you know, gender stuff play out ⁓ as well as sometimes genuinely. romance. And then because the discourse around it is really interesting. So today we're going to be going on a little bit of a journey with Summerhouse and ⁓ I want to start kind of in the present moment and just tell you a little bit about the cast. I think it's important because the show is in its 10th season, so full 10 years, you know, ⁓ of some of these relationships and playing out, but also what the show has done is kind of rotate in new people Ashby: Okay. Coco: There's, as a fan, you kind of understand that there's like a time limit to some of these people. know, Kyle Cook is 43, and then you also have Lindsay Hubbard and Karl Radke, who are all kind of maybe slightly younger than him, but also in that kind of very late 30s, early 40s era. And the show is based around going out to the Hamptons every summer and partying. ⁓ And so there's like a little bit of a natural, hey, you're gonna age out of this lifestyle. whether that is you're truly gonna age out of it emotionally, you're going to be like someone like Carl where you are now sober ⁓ and it doesn't feel like a natural fit ⁓ or someone like Kyle who appears too old even though wants to continue on with this like lifestyle of partying all the time. ⁓ So they rotate in new people ⁓ and this year ⁓ typically that's kind of like a test and very rarely does someone kind of feel like a natural fit. ⁓ We had in the past, Ciara join around season five during COVID, which is crazy. And she feels now more like kind of like an OG like cast member because she's been around for five seasons and is just very integrated into the group. then a couple of seasons ago in season eight, we had Jesse Solomon and West Wilson join ⁓ they became kind of like fan favorites. And so they... Ashby: Mm-mm. Coco: kind of also feel like naturally integrated. And the show only kind of works if you believe that these people are friends, even if they have been sort of artificially put together by Bravo. There's a very, speaking of pretense of no pretense, there's a very thin pretense that they're all friends in real life. And, you know, we understand that they've been kind of orchestrated to be together. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Ashby: Okay, so ⁓ the pretense is these people all like live in New York, right? Coco: Yes. And so then it's like they go out every weekend. And so the episodes are kind of loosely based around a weekend. They kind of blur them together. And then sometimes we do see their like life in the city where they catch up and get drinks or maybe go on a date. Ashby: So they don't go out to Hampton house for the whole summer. Cause I guess that's a lifestyle that people do. They like all rent a house the Hamptons and that's where they go to. ⁓ in the summer. Okay, so this is just they're driving out there every weekend. And do they like all own the house or do they rent the house? Coco: ⁓ yeah, and the- Well, yes, they rent the house. Bravo rents the house. ⁓ Ashby: Okay, the house is the setting and it's the same house every time. Coco: kind a lot of times the gossip and drama also includes like the driving out to the Hamptons and chit chatting, kind of what happened in your week, what happened last time, splitting people up and kind of two different, different arrangements so that they have these conversations. ⁓ Yeah, it's Ashby: Okay. But this was, is this a spin-off of something? Did this start as like Real Housewives of New York or something like that? Coco: It artificially is a spinoff in the sense that like the first episode ever is from the original Vanderpump Rules kind of saying, ⁓ we are going to go visit our friends in New York. And then like Stassi and Katie Maloney and Tom Schwartz all like are there and Kristen Doughty are all like there. And the first scene of the summer house ever is Kyle and Stassi in a hot tub together. Ashby: Mm. Coco: and she's wearing this white bathing suit that has like a turtleneck. And Kyle's very clearly like borderline on the blacked out spectrum. And he can't remember her name, but then he calls her Steve Jobs because she's wearing a turtleneck. And she gets all messed up. She gets all mad about it. It's very dumb. ⁓ But I want to come back to the beginning of Summer House and kind of how it started around the Kyle and Amanda storyline. Ashby: Okay. Coco: certainly. But before we do that, I do want to just say that there is like, about the cast that we are currently in, ⁓ they have a great group of new people. do the new people kind of like hit or feel good, but this time the audience has fully kind of embraced these new people. ⁓ So that includes ⁓ Ciara's friend Mia, who is a relationship. She's really funny. She's confident. She's gorgeous. She's like happy to kind of be Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: gossipy, but isn't like starting drama or starting fights. She's got this like really fun energy. And I mentioned that she's in a relationship because that kind of takes her out of this like our men trying to get with her. Like, and it provides this just really like kind of beautiful freedom. And she's been really fun to have in the house. And then we also have Dara who has joined as West's ex, but she goes to a party. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: And then she kind of is flirting with new guy Ben, who is Australian, who used to be the bachelor in Australia ⁓ and KJ. And she then like kind of immediately defies what we've seen a lot of people in reality TV do. And she goes for, they're both these gorgeous, nice men, but like she goes for the sweetie pie in KJ. And I want to talk a little bit more about who about KJ's energy because Ashby: Yes. Mm. Coco: It's so refreshing to have this person on reality TV. So now with Mia and KJ and Ciara, we also now have three Black cast members in Summer House. there's not always been really any diversity, but the diversity has been very low, where you only have maybe one or two people of color in the entire And having all three of them and especially having Ciara and Mia, who are true friends from outside of the show, has Ashby: Mm. Coco: really pushed the show in a really positive direction. ⁓ ⁓ this in combination with someone like Ciara, someone like Amanda, and even people like West and Jessie, it's kind of pushed the show into this warmer and kind of sillier vibe that the center of power or center of gravity has shifted from those early seasons where it was really dominated by like white boy bro party culture. And it's kind of shifted in a way that feels natural with like it's now 2026, but it's really 2025 when they're filming this last summer. And so it kind of sets Ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco: It's just a good background to have for like what is now playing out with Kyle and Amanda and how both people in the house as well as the audience is reacting to the way that Kyle is treating Amanda on camera. But. Ashby: Mm. Okay, so it's a little bit, the show is a little bit like a sign of the times. Like it's like, like it starts in one place. And then over time, we've gained a sort of cultural language about inclusivity and respectfulness and like, honestly, toxic masculinity that I'm guessing the new cast members and like just the new energy of the show and the type of people watching it are bringing to this. Coco: Yeah, yeah! Ashby: that's starting to make some of that old dynamics look a little out of step. Coco: Yeah, and I think I would just say that I can't quite articulate exactly how I perceive it, but there's a version of this that could be very level. ⁓ we're being diverse, so we've added a couple of cast members and the dynamic doesn't change at all, but this feels like the dynamic has changed. And part of that is also because people like Ciara and also like ⁓ are, so really famous, that they have their own kind of Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it feels organic. Mm-hmm. Coco: power behind the scenes. Ciara on a great ⁓ interview with Carl on Carl's podcast, More Life ⁓ Carl Radke, you know, they talk openly about, ⁓ there's a really amazing conversation about race that happens within the show. And Ciara was saying, ⁓ did have lots of conversations with production about how that was going to be edited. And I'm like, that is so nice that you have more of a voice kind of behind the scenes where don't know the exact dynamics, but it always has been come across that Kyle Cook is kind of the flagship person on the show and that he has also had like a hand in production, ⁓ which is kind of important to think about. Yeah. Ashby: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, I I definitely think that that comes through. And so were Kyle and Amanda initially together or did they meet on the show? Coco: So let's go to the past. Yes. ⁓ Ashby: Okay. Coco: well, okay. I do apologize because I do want you to meet my sweetheart, KJ, ⁓ Yes. So let's go ahead and watch this guy. Ashby: sounds good. Coco: So this is just like a fan edit that someone has made. Okay. Wanted to give you a little taste of KJ. This is just a like fan edit. I know no one can see the video, so we will be including all the links in the sub stack. ⁓ But something that you might have seen from that clip, it opens with West Wilson talking that I think KJ is brought in by West. There's always like a tangential relationship there. And you see that KJ is somebody who openly talks about ⁓ anxiety and he has anxiety attacks and then he says to his male friends like I like it when you check in on me the male friend of West is like I'll just make sure to check in on you more. It's very healthy and very different from if you go back to 2017 when the show started ⁓ and you also see in in that clip or or here you know saying you're like my little brother and I want to protect you and he just presents this like very sweet endearing energy. ⁓ Ashby: Hmm. Coco: And he's also talking about in that clip, like, I have this like more like I'm a serial relationship guy and I'm trying to be one of the lads. And just the fact that he uses the word lad is just so freaking cute. ⁓ And he's like, I want to be one of the boys. And if you're watching the show, you're like, ⁓ my God, don't be like, don't aspire to be one of these fuck boys. But then ⁓ in that clip, you hear a conversation about them with him and Dara when they have first met kind of about going to the movies or going to the movies alone. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: they meet and they're still in a relationship to this day. And he does, instead of going down this like fuck boy, I'm now on reality TV train, which so many of them do and so many of them have explicitly done, he just is like opting for something different. And I just thought that as a little sampler of kind of what the culture feels like on the show now. ⁓ Ashby: Mmm. Okay, so him and that girl get together and they just are together from when they meet. And they're just nice to each other. Coco: Mm-hmm, yep. They seem really, I mean, this season has not fully aired, but ⁓ yeah, they just seem sweet. There's even like a rumor that she like made out with one of the other guys at a party. And in traditional reality show world, what would happen is then he would let that fester and then they'd be at a dinner table and then like he would fight about it. But instead he just like goes and talks to her in a room and is like, I'm feeling this way because of this. Ashby: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: hash it out in like two minutes and it's healthy. And there's a tension within like, I think the audience of shows like this where some people do wanna push it towards drama, drama, drama. And I think part of the delight that I get out of watching Summer House now and all the time is it's partially about like watching people have fun. And I think like during COVID and post COVID, watching people have a blast and be silly like is so satisfying. And like, I am happy to just watch. Ashby: Mm. Coco: ⁓ Dara and KJ going like cute dates. ⁓ Ashby: Aww. And do these people have jobs or is their job being famous? Coco: ⁓ yes. So this is a tension because they do come in with jobs. They all kind of start with jobs. And especially when the show was earlier on, I don't think they got paid enough to, you know, they probably didn't paid enough to like, to maybe quit their job, but it ⁓ like an opportunity to build their career. But it's a lot like model slash skateboarder or influencer, you know, type people. ⁓ But Ciara joins Ashby: Of course. Yeah. Coco: ⁓ in COVID. She had been working in emergency care in hospitals right before she joins the show. ⁓ And then she also has a really great, I don't have a clip of it, but she has a really great conversation with KJ when they're kind of first meeting about how his mom was a nurse, I think. Just like the sense that they, you can even see it just in the way that they're talking to each other, that they're like, you're a real person. Like you're a person with like, Ashby: But she's a nurse, right? Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: that believes that there's like stakes to things. ⁓ And so yeah, the only, at the moment, ⁓ like West has sort of an ostensible job. I mean, he's working, but he does kind of like, he works for complex sort of journalist sports kind of video creator person. ⁓ And then Jesse Solomon, I was debating whether I should show you this, but we're gonna do it. He's tried to launch a singing career. Ashby: Mm-hmm. ⁓ good, good. That'll go well. Coco: involved with. Mm-hmm. All right, here we go. We'll do. Ashby: I'm not gonna be pessimistic, I'm gonna be optimistic. Coco: I'm really sorry you had to experience that, but we've all had to experience it, so. Ashby: Wow, I hmm. Okay, well, not the worst. It's not the worst. Coco: Not the word. He does have actual, he can sing. Yeah. Ashby: Yes, but I don't know. Something about it is, ⁓ I don't, I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it's just that he's very like model handsome that it feels like if I was, if I was watching like a Just For Men commercial and then that guy started singing Coco: Yeah, he's all teeth. It's a little, well, I'll just put it this way. It's a little not cool. ⁓ And then his best bud, West, is very cool, like just very authentically cool. And not to spend too much time on these people now, but I think there's been, as time has played out, ⁓ the commentary around Jesse is that he had a really strong first season and then he kind of seems like one of those guys who only will really talk to you or register you exist if you're like a 10. Ashby: Mm. Hmm. Coco: That's kind of some of the energy that he gives on the show. ⁓ Whereas someone like West seems a little bit more like, I'm here to have fun and be friendly to everyone. ⁓ Crucially, I'll also add that these people are posting on their social media about ICE. There's a political element to Summer House that feels very different from something like Southern Charm, where you feel like there's a little bit like I'm watching liberal versus conservative television shows that are geographically based in the North and South. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Okay, so it sounds like Jessie ⁓ is a warm body, but hasn't had much of like an arc so much. Coco: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, his season one was about he was worried that he was going to have a recurrence of testicular cancer. And he was really invested in like forming friendships on the show. And so people liked him a lot. Last season, he got real derailed by a hot young thing. And it was was a mess. It was just a mess. Ashby: So it sounds like they didn't, maybe they didn't set out to do this, but when the characters have like an authentic but vulnerable thing about themselves, where they're actually trying to connect with people while they're there, that that maybe counterintuitively is more engaging for the audience than maybe what they initially thought, which is hot influencers hang out and sometimes they yell at each other over dinner. Coco: Yeah! Mm-hmm. think it's evolved over time towards this. And I sometimes think it's a little bit like, can the Democratic Party learn from Zohran Mamdani? Like, does Bravo Capital B and Andy understand that that's what people are connecting with? Like, I'm not always sure because sometimes ⁓ I think that the men get what's frustrating as a fan, as a fan of this ecosystem, as a woman ⁓ and a lot of Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: know, queer people also like Bravo, the straight men often get the kinder treatment than the women do. So like Ciara has gotten a lot of heat for being like, taking her romantic life seriously. She'll be like, I'm not having sex with people if I'm not in a relationship with them. And people like, you're such a like frigid bitch, like a little bit on the internet and kind of sometimes overtly kind of within the show. They say bitch, but like. kind of like, why won't you sleep with him or something? And she is saying it's not really because of like conservative values or like a religious thing. It's that she's like, I'm aware of my heart and like my feelings. And I take things so deep and seriously that like I will be getting my heart involved. Like, and so I have boundaries. And I think sometimes the audience is like, you're such a buzzkill. And I, as a sensitive person, I'm like, ⁓ I actually love seeing people like this on TV. Like I connect with them. Ashby: Mm-hmm Coco: I kind of understand her feeling. And she has been treated by, know, part of what has played out in the recent episodes is that Jesse has kind of like tried to hit on Ciara and tried to kind of get with Ciara, but he's treated it as like as a joke, like maybe we'll just drunkenly make out. And she hears that he's kind of talking about her in this way and confronts him. And she has this very emotional moment where she's kind of crying and she's like, ⁓ people just wanna experience me. Like they don't wanna love me. And it really made me feel, it's, wow, the way that these women who are so stunningly beautiful do get treated as just objects, it really kind of crystallized that for me mentally. Ashby: Hmm. Mm. think that you you've pretty much like hit on something that I've told you before when we've talked about Bravo that I don't understand about. ⁓ Like when we'd watched some clips before of ⁓ what's her name Kyle and her husband and there was like this rumor about whether or not they were going to get divorced ⁓ on that. Yes. And people were like angry at Coco: Yeah. Like on Beverly Hills, Kyle and Maurice, mm-hmm. Ashby: at this dinner or something at her for not talking about it and me being like, I don't get how is that anyone's business? I just don't understand how anyone could that's not that's not grounds for an argument. I'm so confused. And then you explain that there's this attitude of like, well, if you're not if you're trying to keep elements of your life private, why are you on the show? Because other people because other people are Coco: Yes, I do agree with that. Yes. Ashby: exposing all of their life stuff for the public to just tear apart and that that's sort of the trade is that you can't have boundaries and be on reality TV. And I think that's what's always made me like really uncomfortable Coco: Well... Ashby: So I see what you mean about like how it must be nice to see an evolution of not just the people on this show, but of the audience too of like, ⁓ we actually like and want to see more of these characters who are authentic, vulnerable, but have boundaries. Like I think that's nice. Yeah. Coco: Mm-hmm. And so I guess maybe I'll just add, I do think Kyle Richards is a villain. And I think that there are different things, right? I think what I'm appreciating is that Ciara is being really authentic and honest on the show. And she's saying, have boundaries with men and that, and she's explaining why. like the honest... Ashby: You Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that's what I mean. It's like part of what people like to watch is, yeah, but you're hot and you're on a TV show. We've put you in a room. We've put you in a house with other hot people like make out, get messy. And if you're not going to do that on camera, why are you here? It's like, I think there's a legacy there of this is what these type of shows want to see. But it's nice that someone is like, no, no, I'm a real person. I have actual Coco: Sure. there's expectations. Yep. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ashby: standards and boundaries for myself and for the show to not just automatically be like what a dud let me let's just kick them out we only want the most unhinged boundaryless people we can find like that's not so fun to watch yeah yeah Coco: Right, right, right, yes. Well, and part of what is compelling about the past couple of seasons is that we see West and Ciara form a genuine connection that seems to be based on like, it's attraction, but it's also like friendship and silliness. And it's like, you know what it's like to watch people flirt like that? It's like a rom-com compared to ⁓ Love Island of it all. You know, it's like, it's a different, it's also different watching interesting, funny, smart people flirt. you know. Ashby: yeah Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: Okay, so let's go back to the beginning. ⁓ Kyle and Amanda, you said, did they meet from the show? ⁓ No, they were dating for seven months before show and Kyle breaks up with her because he quote unquote needs to be single for the show. ⁓ Ashby: Mm, off to a great start. Coco: Not because Bravo wants him to, but because he wants to. Fuck a lot of ladies. Yeah. ⁓ Ashby: Yes, we know. But again, I am not defending this man, but that does seem like the premise of a lot of these shows. like, Coco: Mm-mm. Ashby: hot young people in a house in 2017. The plot is not, he has a girlfriend and he won't make out with anyone, probably. Coco: Yes. And Kyle was 34 and Amanda was 25 at the time. And basically what happens is first episode, first episode of Summer House, he's really drunk and he booty calls her. And so then it's a rotating of like her coming to the house and then kind of like him being like, we're not in a relationship, making out with other women. Ashby: Okay. Coco: then coming back to her and then like towards the end of season one, like telling her like who all I made out with, but also I wanna like date you now. And it's so good that I got to go on my rum spring up because now I know that I wanna be with you. ⁓ Then we get to season two and I think this is where we start to see pattern and this is where we're gonna go on our clips. So you mentioned, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm. Coco: Summer should be fun, right? Let's watch Summer Should Be Fun and then let's talk about Summer Should Be Fun. Ashby: Yeah. Coco: thank you to the people of Bravo for putting out a really helpful YouTube that is over an hour long of Kyle and Amanda's relationship. So I will be including that. Okay, here we go, season two. Ashby: Wow, what year was this? 2017? 2018? Coco: This is 2018, yep. Ashby: Okay, the writing is really on the wall. Coco: So the back, so I went on my own crazy 96 hour crash course in Summer House, rewatching different episodes and different parts of episodes. And Summer Should Be Fun is like a full meme. if any, you say Summer Should Be Fun and it's like this, currently lover boy, Kyle's alcohol brand is selling a sweatshirt that says Summer Should Be Fun on it. but you watch that scene again and what had happened was, ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Everyone knows what that means. Yeah. Coco: Before it, Kyle kicks over a drink or a water on the floor and she's cleaning up after him and she's saying, you're drinking too fast, you're already spilling stuff. Like that's where it's coming from. And the background also for this setting for season two is they live apart. She's saying, he won't spend time with me during the week, so the only time I have with my boyfriend is on the weekend. And so then he's getting blacked out. like every weekend and she's upset by this because it's bad for their relationship. Keep in mind too, it's like a little bit we look at some of this stuff and say like, there's a part of the audience that's like, well, Amanda should have always known. Like, why did she go through with this? ⁓ I think Amanda is a person who grew up in New Jersey, a little bit like a princess ⁓ and ⁓ always expected to get married and have babies and live in the suburbs and do this program. She's also 26. She's very young. He's 35. He comes across as this like successful businessman. There's a power imbalance between the two of them. And I just feel like watching the summer should be fun thing now, thinking about all of this. I would be so upset if like that horrible moment where I'm being yelled at that way by my partner becomes a meme. Ashby: Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I don't know, maybe we weren't as far along as I thought, but it's hard to, it's hard to envision watching that in 2018 and, then just no, no one addresses it like that. Like now something like that would come out. I would think the whole conversation is about, that's not how you talk to people. So it's fascinating that the only thing people took from that was summer should be fun and that there wasn't, it's like, Coco: Amanda not fun is the second part of that that everyone forgets and it's so mean Ashby: And yeah, I think that's really funny if there are people online who are like, Amanda should have known what she's gotten into because America should have known what she was getting into. You can't say that shit about her. Where were y'all? Where were y'all in 2018? Where were y'all in the comments saying like, oh, you know, she needs to see where this is going. They weren't, they were just like, meme fun. So you can't hold her to a different. Coco: you Yes! And he's the powerful one on the show too. Like the show is anchored around him and his friends. So she's only there and like she's 26. Like, ⁓ my God, imagine one of your worst moments from when you were 26 on television for everyone to revisit anytime they feel like it. Tough. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah, think everyone is... being kind of a little bit too hard on 20-something women in particular. Yeah. Coco: Yes. Yep. ⁓ But sometimes even the the leaders of Bravo discourse will sometimes be like, well, Amanda was being a buzzkill. ⁓ Like they will like do because they... ⁓ want the fun of the show. And I will say it like what I'm showing you now is me isolating out this kind of Kyle and Amanda relationship from like a lot of other stuff going on. And so if that's just one moment within like a larger story, but then when you pull just those moments out, you really see the patterns and the writing on the wall. Yeah. Ashby: Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't, gosh, maybe taking it too seriously, but like I did recently watch the America's Next Top Model documentary, the one on Netflix, and then I watched the response one on Amazon, I think you have to pay for it. ⁓ But anyway, it's crazy because I remember that show coming out and the whole discourse around it. Coco: I guess that's No! Mm-hmm. Ashby: is just like it always was in that timeframe of like, look what vapid people will do for fame and money. And it's okay to laugh at them because they are trading their privacy and their dignity for money and fame. And we now know one, it wasn't any money and two, it wasn't a lot of fame. And like three, it's never okay to take people's dignity from them in exchange for entertainment. It's not okay. And like, it's Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: it's literally crazy now to watch that back and not you can't watch it the same way I haven't watched it from the beginning but in 2026 watching this I'm like this is a very different experience like all I can see is ⁓ let's trace nine years of this woman being gaslighted in a toxic relationship and everyone just watching. it's really, ⁓ it's impossible knowing we know now. ⁓ it's impossible to just watch this for fun now. Coco: Welcome to this episode, because that's what we're doing. Yeah! you know, maybe these early seasons you are like, ⁓ they'll break up like, and then they don't break up. And so there's extra weight added to the interactions ⁓ for sure. OK, so now also you'll see that Kyle gets a glow up kind of because he's clearly gotten some fillers. He looks great, but never seen a white man who parted this much, aged as well. But, you know, still, that's one compliment I'll send to Kyle. Now we're moving into season three. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Just the one. Coco: Kyle's 36, Samantha's around 27. They both have their birthdays in the summer, so these ages are just like loose ranges. But at this point, this is where the season opens and Kyle had sent a 17 page email. That's not an exaggeration, 17 page email, to all of his castmates ahead of the show with his gripes. And the... Ashby: Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. I know. Fun, he's fun. This is like waking up to the longest text of your life from all of your roommates. Coco: Yep. And this I think also just establishes a pattern that like Kyle thinks he's in charge of everyone at the house. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and this is also when Kyle has like officially started Loverboy. He had of like in the earlier seasons, this like entrepreneurial backstory and now they've started Loverboy and he is bringing Amanda in to work for him at Loverboy. She's a graphic designer, kind of as a creative director person. ⁓ One of the tensions in the show is that she also has a job and he eventually convinces her to leave her official job, I think at Loctane, which is like, really nice place to work to come work exclusively for Loverboy. Yes, It think, initially going to just be like iced tea, like a hard iced tea. ⁓ And it is of like a flavored seltzer that that has a stronger flavor, kind of different version of more of like a tea like flavor ⁓ than something like a truly or a white white cloth. I'll be honest, I quite like Loverboy. ⁓ Ashby: Loverboy is an alcohol brand. Mm-hmm. Coco: Second compliment for Kyle. ⁓ I do think that is a good beverage. But also, crucially, he says that Amanda is the one who said you need to include bubbles. So we have to give Amanda credit where credit is due as well. So this is a season where there's a 17 page email because some of the cast members have been kind of avoiding both Kyle and Amanda during the off season. And it is revealed within the show that the reason is that Lindsay has found out that Kyle has cheated on Amanda. And she's like, I actually hate that all of your Instagram stuff is like this fake perfect relationship. And I know the truth. Is that helping? No, but Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: Lindsay Hubbard is a reality TV show queen and she must stay on my screen until the day that I pass away. Lindsay Hubbard is a reality TV show queen and she must stay on my screen until the day that I pass away. ⁓ So we're going to watch ⁓ a clip Amanda has known that he cheated on her. and they've resolved it. And then what happens is that there's another instance or another rumor of cheating ⁓ they've already kind of worked through this first round of cheating stuff. So here we go. Ashby: first one. Coco: Well, sorry, the clip cuts off a little earlier than what I wanted to show you. But yes, he tells her about this new rumor. And then what happens is a fight ensues after that where he is crying and sitting in the grass like a baby. And she's like, what's wrong with you? And then he, or like, why are you crying or something? And he's like, I haven't like tried to get a girl's number in months. And she says, Kyle, we've been together for three years. Like right after he reveals this. Ashby: Jesus. Coco: And what happens in that scene where he tells her there's this rumor and he's like, there's plenty of nights where I've been selfish in April, is that she's saying, you don't even know if the rumor is true because you black out so frequently out in settings where you would be able to make out with people. So out at clubs or whatever it is. And this is like, we're going back to, I think this is actually 2018 where we are right here. This is 2018. ⁓ this is still going on to this day where it's like the rumors. ⁓ Ashby: I mean, that comes through immediately. if someone asks you, if someone is telling you about a rumor and then you say, well, did that happen? And then they don't say no, then it's pretty clear that they don't know and they think it's probably likely that. And so those are so many different kinds of red flags. ⁓ But for context, if people haven't seen the show, another thing that you're watching is that she is an absolutely stunning, gorgeous woman who is like, Coco: Mm-hmm. Yep. Ashby: pulling herself up out of a pool and walking away from him and you're just like, are you a fucking idiot? You sunburned little shit. Coco: Thank you, thank you. Ashby: She looks like she's giving like Hailey Bieber like the like clean girl like, you know, I mean, whatever, whatever you think of that. This woman is like stunning. And the fact that she just pulls herself out of the pool and walks away. You're just like, this guy's a fucking dumbass. Yeah, anyway. Fascinating. Coco: Uh-huh. I mean, the way that they treat Paige, Ciara, Amanda, ⁓ different men at different times throughout Summer House. And you're just like, are you, do you think you can do better than Ciara? Like what? Get the fuck out of here any of them. ⁓ And the women are so funny and they're cool and they are, ⁓ know, they have their moments of bad behavior or whatever, but like ⁓ are. Ashby: the fuck? Okay. Coco: are miles ahead in terms of like their behavior than the dudes. Something else in this season that's fascinating is that Carl Paige are making out in the pantry. This is like this little funny thing on the side. It's Paige's first season. They're kind of making out in the pantry occasionally ⁓ and ⁓ they ⁓ never go to a bed and like have sex, ⁓ And Paige saying, well, Carl only talks to me on the weekends. doesn't like... hasn't checked in with me during the week. Carl hasn't asked me out on a date, and so I'm gonna make out with this person, but I'm not taking it any farther. ⁓ And then Kyle gets mad. Kyle is accusing Paige of leading him on and being a tease. And this sort of is, and Paige is basically like, well, he never courted me or asked me on a date. She's like, I'm a lady, and this is how I wanna be treated. I'm being very upfront about how I wanna be treated. And Carl doesn't take those steps. Um, Carl is not sort of calling her a tease. You know, he, he's like, I want to take it further, but he's not, he's not putting it that angle on it. And Kyle gets really mad and Amanda's like, you did this to me two years ago. Like you led me on two years. mean, they eventually got together, but you were teasing me and leading me on and kind of treating me like garbage. So it's a very interesting thing where you just see kind of this like entitlement towards these women. Um, also Carl's arc is. Ashby: Right. Coco: interesting because he really does have a true addiction struggles and loses his brother to addiction and gets sober himself. ⁓ And the representation of Carl now is like genuinely like this very good kind person. And we saw him in these early seasons exhibit like true fuckboy behavior and like wear his really tight white pants and like kind of behave badly. But also in going back and watching some of those moments, there's something in him that does kind of come through as being like a genuinely good person. who's kind of being led around a little bit by his bro-y asshole friend. ⁓ And even when he's really messed up, it's not as toxic. I don't get that kind of perception that I do maybe from someone like Kyle. I'm coming for Kyle really hard. He bothers me. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: ⁓ Okay. So now we're jumping up to season four ⁓ where I would say this is where we really see a pattern Kyle calling Amanda lazy. They now live together. ⁓ they have gotten engaged at the end of the previous season after that rumor, the cheating rumor stuff hashes itself out. Ashby: Fascinating. Okay. Coco: There's an incredible scene where Kyle asks Amanda's dad for permission to ask her to marry him and Kyle's dad does not give it. And it's on camera and it's amazing. Mr. Petula, high five to you. But now they are engaged, they are living together. It's 2019 pre-COVID and Amanda is saying, Ashby: Yes, I have read about this. Yes. Coco: I don't feel an urgency to get married. They're supposed to get married in 2020 and she jokes about pushing the wedding out to 2027. So she's already having her like, I actually don't know if I can go through this cycle. And then this is also where we see Kyle start to complain about Amanda not wanting to have sex with him. He's like, I'm engaged to someone who's nine years younger than me. I don't know where her sex drive went. And this is a very funny thing that Ashby: Hmm. Coco: you hear where it's like, don't know where this woman's sex drive went. I don't know why this woman doesn't want to hang out with me. I don't know why. And it's like, it's because of your behavior. And so what we find out, let's go to our next clip here. Ashby: Yikes. Coco: this is really like the same reasons why present day they're getting divorced ⁓ here. So that's a tougher scene to watch. I did cut, there's two clips that are right back to back. ⁓ The first of him complaining about her not wanting to have sex. And then the next one, it cuts to a different moment where everyone has been out at the bars and then most of the cast has come back except for Carl and Kyle. This is before Carl's sober ⁓ and they're staying out. And ⁓ as you can hear in the scene, she's calling him over and over again. And what we can see on the Chiron is like the number of calls. And I think it goes up to like 30 something or so ⁓ where she keeps calling him and she says explicitly, the reason why I'm being triggered right now is because this is when he cheats on me. And then I get DMs the next day that he's been out making out with someone. What is your, are you doing okay? Ashby: Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah, no, the audience can't see this. My eyes are the size of saucers. I'm so frustrated and angry. okay, ⁓ you're saying this is like 2019, right? Coco: 2019, right the year before COVID. Ashby: I don't know. I see enough stuff here to be like, I actually don't think Bravo should have this man on TV. I've said before, I have an extraordinarily low tolerance. I understand that their interpersonal relationships do have conflict, but when I... I also read that profile that you shared from Amanda. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, the Marie Claire Amanda's, which is so good. Ashby: And I've seen some other stuff too where he says some things to her and then she's even on camera saying, ⁓ this isn't even the worst of the things he's ever said to me. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: In this clip, he throws a pillow. Okay. And that's, and that's what you see. And also he's being incredibly emotionally terrible by her, her being understandably frustrated about his behavior, him petulantly acting like a child, her asking if he wants to be single. And he just says, yes, she's clearly hurt by this because they are engaged. And like, then he goes, ⁓ and like throws this pillow at her feet and walks off like, Coco: Right. Yep. And it's Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: That's what we saw on camera. A person that does that does other stuff off camera. That's just, I mean, that is a fact. And there's documented research about this, that this is how this type of behavior starts. This starts with throwing something not at you, but near you. And then the next escalation is punching a wall. Punching a wall is a very big thing instead of punching you. then like these things escalate. Coco: Mhm. Mhm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: So I have a really hard time seeing how this keeps being on the air for like the next several years and like no one, and you've said he's had a hand in editing. So who knows what all they've captured that's like not there. Yeah. Coco: This is important. This is why I wanted to show you to it, show it to you, even though I know you, I'm not trying to upset you, ⁓ but there's a part of this that plays out. Ashby: Mmm. Coco: Now I want to bring, ⁓ I, a different show is The Valley, which kind of evolved out of original Vanderpump rules. And, ⁓ and on The Valley, we see Jax Taylor and Brittany Cartwright's relationship implode. ⁓ And we see them ⁓ up ⁓ and ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yes. Mm-hmm. Coco: I forget if it's right before they fully break up or if it's like after, but we see the aftermath about them is not on camera, but them talking about that he broke a stool. And the way that you're watching the conversation, me and my friends who've talked about it. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: It's like, it feels like he hit her, but it's not, they're not saying it on camera. Like there's something that feels like it, it wasn't just like physical property. She got hurt in this altercation and it's like, ⁓ he threw something, but it wasn't intended. But the way that you perceive it is like, ⁓ this is scary. And then you just see a man who breaks down once his wife divorces him and is trying to ⁓ have access to the cameras in the house. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: is trying to be controlling, is calling in rage, texting her from rehab. And so he has been officially kicked off of Bravo permanently for what would be stalking and abusive behavior. And you're like, this is dangerous territory. And I just think that the Bravo universe doesn't see Jax Taylor and Kyle Coke in the same light. They see Jax Taylor, oh, he's like a former bartender Coke head. Oh, it's okay. We can talk about him Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm Coco: Kyle, he's a successful businessman. he lives in New York. Like there's like a way that Kyle gets categorized that is, ⁓ that approved by society. ⁓ And would say that I'm like, Kyle is exhibiting behaviors that like ⁓ this entitlement to women, this desire for younger women that aren't going challenge him. ⁓ it's just ⁓ a, there's something there that I don't quite know to tap or talk about, but. Ashby: Yeah, it's not. That's what I was saying that I don't quite understand. So I had been like listening to Giggly Squad but I had gone back and watched like a clip of Paige talking with her boyfriend of the time, Craig, trying to get the like backstory ⁓ and Coco: Huh. Mm-hmm. Ashby: is this conversation that's one of apparently many conversations they have where they're hypothetical. What if they get engaged and she's sort of like, it's a big deal for me to move and he isn't really taking that seriously at all. He just is like, anyway about me and what I want. And I am seeing this and like I've listened to Giggly Squad. I understand this sort of rising star that Paige has right now in the culture. So I go to the comments expecting to see people being like, girl, Coco: Right. Mm-hmm. Nope. Ashby: He ain't ready for you. He doesn't respect you. Wrong. Comments are full of people being like, ⁓ Craig, she's just like, she's only here for the fame. Like she was never really committed to you. You're so handsome. You can do so much better. You're so successful. And it's like, first of all, these things are patently untrue. ⁓ They're just untrue. But I am so ⁓ at... the amount of defense that these people are getting because what I'm seeing is so different. I don't think I'm particularly biased, you know, but what I am seeing is like, here's a little man baby being a little man baby. And then the audience reaction to that not seeing the same thing is just, really kind of blows my mind. But yes, like how anyone can watch. Coco: Yep. Ashby: clips that I've seen of it, I'm just like, this guy is a problem. This guy's problem. This guy's a problem. yeah. ⁓ Coco: Well, and Paige gave him a big glow up from him being with her because before they were together, there was a lot of stuff about him lying about like just basic details of his life. ⁓ And while he's with her, he gets sober. And it's a big reason why he's like tolerable for even like those parts of the both Southern charm and when he's on Summer House is that he's not drinking because his behavior is to get really drunk and then yell at people and smash things and break things. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: ⁓ And yeah, yeah. And then now the most recent season of Southern Charm has aired post breakup and he has a horrible crash out in a van in Mexico where he's just screaming at women and calling them losers. like, was unprovoked in the moment. They have beef, but like it was unprovoked. was just, he was. Ashby: Where have we seen that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Coco: basically blacked out. And then he has no ability to recognize his behavior as bad. Whereas I think someone like Kyle performatively apologizes. And one of the things that happens in season 10 is like this public apology. And then the real issue is that you didn't do the private apology. And that's what matters way more than your performative public apology. Ashby: Yeah, I'm just, I'm very surprised. mean, look, I share the thing of like, really, Amanda should have broke up with this guy. Like, there are so many reasons why, but I also understand how she has gotten sucked into this. I absolutely can see the contours here. When you're in like a toxic relationship like that, like it can be a little bit addictive, just the ups and downs of it. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: There's a sunk cost fallacy that happens, especially when you're that young and then you're also straight up being lied to. So this is the person who's telling her I'm gonna change, I'll do better and still is too chicken shit to actually break up with her, but is doing all this stuff. Right, no. Coco: Mm-hmm. He doesn't want to break up with her. He doesn't want to. Nope. He wants her there and he wants to go do whatever he wants to do. And he wants to have his wife. Ashby: Yes. Coco: So let's keep going because there's a lot more to this. ⁓ I don't have any clips from the COVID season, but this is where, this is the last season that Hannah is in. And this is the, ⁓ it was, I couldn't remember what was beef with Hannah. Like, why did she get, yeah. Do you want to tell us about, do you want to tell us about that part? ⁓ Ashby: Yeah, okay. All right. I watched a whole like one hour clip. Okay, this is like, okay. This is like a person who's like just stumbles into this, right? Coco: I wish people could see Ashby's hands on the face and the eyeballs popping out. Ashby: Like I'm watching this because I like Hannah, I've watched her special, I listened to her podcast. Yeah, okay. And from what it appears to me is like, there's a couple of things going on. One, some of the most compelling stuff is, Coco: And she's also very young. She's in her twenties too at this time. Ashby: Amanda, Paige, and Hannah hanging out together. Their banter is really funny. It's almost like a little oasis when it's just the three of them on screen because it's just all positive and it's goofy and you feel like they really care about each other. Coco: ⁓ huh. Ashby: There's just a care there that's really nice. Then every single time the guys are on screen, the vibe just falls apart. Like it's just conflict and there's division. But what I was gathering is that ⁓ Amanda is with Kyle. This is post one of apparently many cheating scandals. And this is a thing that happens. Like this is the meat of like what I think we're talking about, which is when you're in a friend group and the guy is shitty, ⁓ all the friends are now issued a challenge. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: It's like, do you want to be the one that said, I told you so, or do you want to like try to stay and support your friend because there's a tension there of how much they will then actually share with you. So ⁓ what I see happening is Amanda's friends are trying to be supportive of It is very hard to do though, because Kyle is disrespectful in the way that he talks to her in front of them. ⁓ And also ⁓ Coco: Right. Ashby: they have this history knowledge that he's cheated on her. Coco: And he's disrespectful in the way that he talks to them. He feels entitled to yell at younger women for laughing. And it's like that, what is that expression? Like women are afraid that men are going to kill them, but men are afraid that women are going to laugh at them. Like, you know, and that's what we see with, with Paige and Hannah specifically. Ashby: Exactly, Damn, yes. Yes. Yes. But I think the funniest, the funniest own ever is like that dinner scene of like how Giggly Squad gets named is they're talking about their engagement and Hannah and Paige, is the first day that they've gotten back together and they're goofing off and they're like, talk, is that, that's right, right? That's what they say, that it's their first night back in the house. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the earlier season went, yes, but mm-hmm. Ashby: Yeah, yeah. And like, he is so mad that he's not holding court at this table, that everyone is not wrapped and listening to him. It's like a 10 person dinner table. Like, everyone's been in a conversation with even like five people at a dinner table where you start telling something and then somebody else starts talking. It's just a normal thing that happens, but he's irritated that everyone is not listening to his presentation on how involved he is with planning his own wedding. And Paige and Hannah, rightly, Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: Don't respect him because he's talking about a wedding to a person that's their friend that he's cheated on and they're happy to be back together and they're goofing off and they're goofing off in the corner. So. Coco: Even if they're like a tiny bit, there's like moments where they are like a tiny bit like rude, but you don't get to yell at them. Like it's just also you don't get to yell at them. You can be irritated by things and you don't get to lash out at people. Ashby: You still don't. It's still, that's not how you handle that. And you just don't get to act that way. And so I think the funniest thing though is that he's like, he blows up and he's like, God, I'm trying to talk about my wedding and there's a Giggly Squad over here. just like, fucking A, they have made so much money off of this shit, man. Good for them. I'm so happy about that. The greatest own of all time. Coco: Okay. Ashby: which I love. Coco: and even in that interaction, the fight kind of keeps going after everyone's gotten up from the table and Paige goes, heaven forbid we made Amanda giggle. ⁓ he's like, it wasn't just that you two were giggling, you were making Amanda giggle. And that's part of the problem though. ⁓ says Amanda is no fun, but he doesn't like it if she has fun with anyone else. ⁓ Ashby: Yes! That's part of the whole thing. No, it is becoming like radically clear what this is about for him is like control. It's about controlling this woman who's younger than him. But so what you start to develop is like a tension between him and her friends. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: but he takes zero responsibility for that and instead escalates every little thing. But the way that he escalates stuff is super nonsensical. Like, you know, they'll be all. Coco: slams his hand on the table a lot, slams doors, storms out, and then cries. It's a lot of this. It's a tantrum. Ashby: Yeah! Yeah. And then cries. And like, I don't, I don't think of Hannah as like a, she's not a passive aggressive person really. Like, yeah. And so she's willing to have this out with him multiple times, multiple times. They like try to have this conversation, but he takes it from like zero to a thousand so fast and starts yelling that he's like, he makes a big thing about how she doesn't take out the trash. Coco: She's pretty direct. Mm-hmm. Ashby: was one thing where they have a big house meeting about not taking out the trash. But really what it's clear what he's irritated about is that they like sleep in and have like a different schedule that I guess they didn't run by him, but like it's pretty clear that it's the obvious dynamic of my fiance's friends are tepid toward me. They don't respect me. They're not giving me deference in this house because they know I'm a piece of shit. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: I mean, that's just so, it's so fucking obvious. But what he does is essentially what everyone does, which is he starts to try to cut ⁓ fiance off from them, trying to separate her from people who want to advocate for her. ⁓ And part of how that happens is that ⁓ they've been very honest with Amanda that they're like trying to give Kyle a chance, but that his behavior is challenging. And it really is sad. It really is sad because like, When they're all three on screen, it's like there's no reason that these shitty dudes should be dividing you because like you all are the primary relationship here. Like it is just a fucking bummer. Anyway, I think one thing I would say is that I don't think Hannah handles all of those super well, but I also... Coco: Mm-hmm. She said also on her podcast and in other situations, she was like, I was really drunk and the producers were egging me on and like, you know, and was very young. Like there's like, not to excuse anyone exactly, but it's like those things that make sense. She was doing her job on reality TV too. Ashby: Like you can see that it's messy. It's messy. there's nothing I can take away from that other than like, do think she's like unfairly created into the villain that season. And it doesn't look fair. Yes, it doesn't look fair at all. Like, especially knowing the major age gap between them. There's no other way to put it other than it's Darvo. Like Kyle calls her out. Coco: She was easy to be like scapegoated almost a little bit. Ashby: escalates things really high, picks moments where she's in front of other people to kind of embarrass her, knowing she'll get emotional, then he totally retreats and acts like he totally like goes stone, stone cold. Like he, he, he brings the volume way down after he's gotten it that high and then makes it look like ⁓ the last person shouting is the one who started it. Coco: Mm-hmm. He does a lot of shut down stuff. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And that's just classic, like reverse victim and offender But ⁓ the age difference, it's embarrassing for him to just be like, here's one of my wife's friends. I'm just going to get drunk. And I'm just going to pick a major fight And because I have the tenure on this show, I'll get a say in the edit that makes it look like it was more complicated than it was. ⁓ What's frustrating to me is like I said, Hannah's not at her most articulate, but when he's not either, he's not making any sense. The stuff he's bringing up is like years ago and vague. He's just sort of like, you're weird to me. That's not a critique. He has no examples. Coco: I will say going through this journey, I'm just like Kyle's whiny voice. can't handle it anymore. Ashby: for real, for real. It's all vibes. It's all vibes based. It's like how he is not able to emotionally regulate. And so he picks the nearest woman to him and he like makes it her problem in front of everyone on camera. So yeah. Coco: But people have wondered now that Amanda and Kyle are divorced, could Hannah and Amanda be friends? Because part of it was that they were just divided from this relationship. And for Hannah calling out something she's seeing between them and saying, you can't talk to me that way, it's like nothing unites like a common enemy where it made Kyle and Amanda get closer in that moment. But it feels very different now. ⁓ she has kind of moved on. I do want to say one more thing about like kind of that COVID season. It's just when they start talking about having children. So they haven't gotten married yet, but they're like, our wedding's been pushed out indefinitely. Maybe we should start talking about having a kid. And Kyle's like, now's not the right time financially. And Amanda's like, not everything has to be like all the puzzle pieces in this place. Like, you know, we can still do this. She's like 29 ish then. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: then we go into ⁓ season ⁓ and I was wanted to show you but I I'll spare There's another scene at the beginning of season six where Kyle stays at the bar all alone. So no Carl just by himself and she calls him like 50 times. She breaks his stuff and she throws the stuff out. ⁓ She throws his suitcase outside and then ⁓ She has had this true big reaction because I think he had cheated on her again by that point that she knew about and was freaking out. And she's saying, they reveal in this, in this moment where she's talking to Ciara and Paige, like while she's peak freaking out, know, that she's like, actually have a contract with Kyle that if, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: if he gets drunk and cheats on me again and we have to call off the wedding that he has to pay my parents back for all the wedding stuff that we've already paid for. And I don't remember if it's Paige or Ciara, but one of them is like to the camera. She's like, if you have to do that, like, yeah, isn't, yep, mm-hmm, yep. Ashby: Yeah. If you have to do that, don't. Don't. Yeah. But I, God, feel so bad that this woman has had to grow up on TV. I really do. Coco: Yeah, her formative years have all been spent with this man as well, and on television. Ashby: That's the thing is that this man has like set the standard for her of like she didn't get a chance to go through like two to 10 of these guys and then and like learn, you know, and she could have, but I can see how some of this really isn't her fault. You guys this man dragged her under he's entangled her in multiple different ways like pulling her into his business. Coco: Like Paige has Ashby: blaming her on television for the failures of his business, that's gonna harm her ability to do other things. Like he's hurting her brand. So she sort of has like two paths, which is like, maybe I can make this work and it'll all have been worth it. Or I can try to extricate myself and just sit with sort of whatever narrative he wants to spin about me. Like by staying in it in a way she feels like she's at least getting to help steer. But if they're jettisoned, I'm sure she's not sure if she'll have any platform anymore. And I think rightly so, she's so young. She doesn't really know how much on the hook. And they talk about this in the Marie Claire article, like how entangled is she in this man's business? She feels like she's like, I'm technically an adult, but like there's more things here that you're not seeing. Like she is in really deep with him in ways that he's like pulled her into. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And then, yes. Coco: Women are socialized. ⁓ like it's just, this is what she probably thought, ⁓ I'm gonna go through with this. That's what you do. Yeah. Ashby: And also the idea of there being a wedding looming, it makes it feel like, okay, it's that classic thing that happens of like, well, once we're past this milestone, things will turn around. Once we're at, they always say that. And then also trying to put it back on, well, he's just stressed about the wedding. He just has cold feet because we're gonna get married. But thinking that there's two guys there. Coco: They kept, they always say that. Ashby: thinking that there's a little guy inside that really loves her and wants to be with her, but he's just, you know, surrounded by this disgusting chocolate shell of shit. And all she needs to do is like whittle down to the real guy. And eventually by the time they get to the altar, all of that will have melted away and he'll be ready to grow up, you know? And then feeling like that would really be vindication for her because quitting gets her nothing, you know? But getting this man to turn his life around, Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: would actually feel like all of this was worth something to her. Yeah. Coco: And I think this comes in the Marie Claire interview and just in general where people, where she's a person who's like, oh, we'll get married and he'll settle down. And that's what you think, and that's what she thinks will happen. And this is also where like the reality TV of it all comes in, where maybe in his, a different life, maybe he kind of would have done that, but he doesn't, his job is to party on television. So it's a little bit of a unique situation. So we're gonna speed up. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, and a lot of people do think that. Mm-hmm. Coco: speed forward a little bit, because I do want to get to the more recent stuff that's happened. But just to say, I just think in COVID, they start talking about having kids. At the end of season six, they do get married. In season seven, Kyle turns 40, and there's more discussions of fertility. But then once we get to season eight, which is 2023, they're both kind of saying... Ashby: Okay, okay. Coco: we're not on the same team, now is not the right time for us to have a kid. We're not on the same page. ⁓ And I also say this is a moment where Kyle kind of starts to exhibit this behavior, or at least where I notice it, where a pattern of traveling for several days and then being really shocked when he comes back and Amanda isn't dropping everything to hang out with him. ⁓ And the funny thing is that you're like, If you're a ⁓ person, I was going to say a woman, but just a person, and your partner kind of is frequently just leaving you, you go and fill your life with other things and you might resent them for leaving. And so when they come back, you might be like, actually I have like a little bit of an issue with you. It happens in Hamnet. You know? ⁓ So, and then also this kind of pattern of Kyle, this is not the beginning, but just a good example of Ashby: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Coco: Kyle saying, I'm so overwhelmed with work. You don't understand what's going on with Loverboy. You don't know what understand what I'm on the hook for. And at the same time, you're like, you're the architect of all of this as well. This is the life that you want of this entrepreneur. ⁓ And then he's also saying like, Amanda, you don't work hard enough, you're lazy. Like this kind of branding of her on television as lazy. And so we'll go watch, we're skipping a couple of years into the future here. Ashby: Sorry, I'm screaming. Coco: Would you like to tell people what this man's hair looks like while they're having this conversation? Ashby: dog shit. looks like actually no dog shit is like it just is what it is. This man made a choice to have the ugliest reddish, ginger-est mullet I've ever seen in my life. Meanwhile, he's sitting there talking to like this beautiful sort of like timeless looking woman and he's just like the wind is blowing his shit mullet around and he just cannot he cannot not talk over her. He can't. do it. She starts to say something and he can't stop. like, I am so frustrated. I'm so frustrated. I would not have been able to watch this show just for this alone because Coco: And I'm forcing you to do it now. Ashby: This is what I mean. Like there are guys like this. they turn everything around on you, they cannot handle any criticism. They will not reach any type of constructive place in an argument other than ⁓ me upset. You take responsibility for it. There's no place she can land that isn't that for him. he just wants her to say, ⁓ my gosh, you're right. The reason you're feeling overwhelmed is because I'm not pulling my weight and I should be ⁓ checking in with you more. I be loving you more. I should be doing more. ⁓ And then he can feel fine it. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: and not listening. He's not hearing what she's saying, which is super nice and reasonable. Coco: She's very articulate about what she needs. She's kind of assessed the situation and she's very able to explain it. She feels like you yelling at me does not make me want to be more productive. Ashby: Yes! You can see like growth in this person. Yeah, and he also, he needs to be called on his shit. Like she is giving the most charitable interpretation of what he's saying. She is responding to it as if he's making sense. He's not making sense. I must stress this. In all of his arguments, the women are responding to him in the most charitable way possible. as if what he's saying is specific and has content. He's not giving one specific thing at all. He's listing vaguely that he feels overwhelmed with checked notes. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: His business, and she as a quote, employee of his business is giving him feedback on how he can be a better manager of her. One of those things would be not berating her if he would like for her productivity to recover. And he just isn't hearing that. He's just sort of vaguely vomiting that he feels vaguely overwhelmed. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: And He is projecting. He's not to have kids because he wants to keep partying. He's overwhelmed to his business because it turns out running a business sucks and it's hard work and it requires that you do stuff that you don't want to do and that you're committed to it, whether or not you feel like doing that right then or whether or not someone is giving you constant feedback for how great of a businessman you are. Sort of weirdly like a marriage. Sort of weirdly like, sort of weirdly like how a marriage is about ⁓ more than, I haven't tried to get another girl's number in months. That's the whole point. That's what commitment is. It's like you set that aside because something else is more important. Coco: And they're in both together. ⁓ Uh-huh. Maybe you having watched some of these interactions, maybe it makes more sense what I was saying about KJ and Dara, where I was like, they had an issue and then they just immediately talked to each other and it was okay. Like it was, it was different. Yeah. Ashby: Mm-hmm. But this idea of stuff festering sure whatever, the festering part is a strategy. If you address stuff in the moment, you have specifics at hand, but by not addressing it right then later you can bring it up when people don't have as much clarity around what actually happened. So this isn't some communication failure. This is a sinister choice that he makes. He does not choose to address problems in the moment because he doesn't have the skills. Coco: ⁓ huh. ⁓ huh. ⁓ huh. Ashby: We saw her try to talk about stuff in the moment with him and we see how that goes. Coco: And there's even after this, after this, she tries to talk to him on the beach about something. I won't show you this clip, but she tries to talk to him about the beach and he just is like, you're not making sense. And she just calmly stays there and she's like, I'm frustrated. That's why I'm having conversations because I'm frustrated and I'm trying to explain, you can't stay with me in the frustration part. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: Okay, so I think, you know, here's where we're kind of turning the corner on like where we sort of say like, this is this can't be saved. Then we're next going to go see our friends. We're going to bring Paige and Ciara into the picture, So part of the background is that Amanda has told Paige and Ciara that she's like, it would be kind of fun to do something creative myself, like maybe like a swimsuit line or just something like that. And they are so encouraging. They're like, we wish you could see you the way we see you. You're so creative. They're building her up. ⁓ we also know has kind of goes on this like journey of depression and anxiety and like going seeking mental health help. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah! Mm-hmm. Coco: ⁓ And she has really low self-esteem. partially because of this relationship has been on all these formative years. right, let's stay sad, but stay sad, stay angry and then know that there's a happy ending. ⁓ Ashby: ⁓ they're definitely a happy ending. And that's how Kyle likes it, sorry. Coco: We don't need to watch their fake apology cry fest, but you hear him say, says, fuck you fucking bitch or something under his breath to just by him walking away. And then one thing he says that isn't in this edit that I have here, but it's like he's like out by himself. And I think something that's fascinating about Kyle, Kyle's always aware of the microphone in the camera. So he says things to no one. Ashby: No, I can't stand a fake man crying. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: that then make it into the show in a way that's very different from most of the other people. I don't actually see other people doing that. But he's like, she wants to go do this and live her dream? I wanna be a DJ. He says it back then. And so ⁓ I wanna continue with ⁓ the next bit because this is... ⁓ Ashby: ⁓ my god. Mm-hmm. Coco: So we're gonna, we did the hard part. Now we're gonna watch Sphere and Paige yell at Kyle about this very fight. Mm-hmm. All right. And so some of the internet commentary was like, ⁓ my God, it's shocking. And he revealed like lover boy is tanking. But it's no, it's not at all. OK, I'll let you do a little reactions. How are you feeling? Those women so clearly just explain things so well. So reasonable, they predicted the future. Ashby: No, it is not shocking. Once again. Once again. they are being so calm and reasonable. It is distressing the way that the nice kind way that they are framing this to him is just bouncing off of him. And that's like your first clue is that there's not a good little person in there who's trying to come out. I'm sorry. What you're seeing is like very narcissistic behavior. As soon Coco: No. ⁓ Ashby: What I notice immediately is that they're framing this in terms of how you would talk to a normal person, which is if you talk to a normal person who loves their wife and you say, hey, your wife was talking to me about this and like, I think this would make her really happy. you know, we're here to support this. Like, let's talk this situation through. That's like an understanding and kind thing that friends do. And if you love your wife, you hear that and you hear them out and they're really good. they're listening to his side of it and they're framing that as like, you you'll be fine. Like we can test this out. I don't know. They're coming at this very rationally and kind. What I can immediately see is he's shutting down and they've framed it the wrong way. What they should have done is talk about how it would be good for him. It's not helpful to him to hear what's helpful to Amanda. what they could have said is like, clearly Amanda's not pulling her weight and you've been really stressed. I think ⁓ it's maybe that she should work on something that's like lower stakes, like a swimsuit brand or something that's like not as cool as your business. So that's very unfortunately how you have to talk to somebody like this because all he hears is that it's a zero sum game. Something good for other people means something shitty for him. It's also pretty clear that he just wants to be a party boy and that he will not take responsibility for that. He is blaming Amanda. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: for the failure of his company and saying that he's under a ton of pressure, what he really means is like, I got into this, I don't like it. I wanna go back to making out with 19 year old girls in bars. That was what was more fun. Coco: The pressuring thing is like you have Kyle you have leveraged this show into the success that Loverboy whatever success Loverboy has is because of like the you being on the show maybe your behavior on the show plays a role in how people perceive Loverboy. ⁓ Ashby: is not helping, yeah. But he blames everyone around him for everything. Like, you guys just don't understand. I think everything's more complicated. Here, it's daytime. You are away for the weekend. Here are your friends. Talk it out. What is more complicated? What is, what, give us a fucking specific besides Kyle sad, Kyle feel criticized. That's all anyone ever gets from you. Coco: Hmm. That's the more complicated. That's we're moving. that was the end of eight and now we're season nine. And this is where Amanda has gotten on medication. She's dealing with her mental health. ⁓ And she's saying, I'm not sure if I want to, about kids anymore. She's like, I've actually learned so much about taking care of myself. Am I ready to take care of something else? And she says, I just want to, this is a quote. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Good for her. Coco: I just want to feel normal for a couple of months. I just want to be hot and happy. And we're all watching and we're like, we want that for you too, girl. And he is still like, he is not committing to moving into the suburbs. I think at some point they even go look at a house. And then I think Paige is also like, Kyle, just like let her drink her Corona's in the backyard. This is her dream. Ashby: Let's go for her. Yes. Mm-hmm, Coco: And so, you know, I think we just see in season nine that he's now pushing the kids thing she's pulling back and he's getting very upset about it. And there's this scene between him and Tom Schwartz where they're both there like we can't believe that we're in our 40s and we don't have kids yet. Ashby: Yeah. And we don't have kids. Yeah, I saw this. Yeah, discussion. Coco: and you just want to point to your kids. You just want to look, point to your kids and say, see, I valid man, I have children, not be a father, understand what that commitment means. And she's like, I've been in this relationship for almost a decade. Like what indicators have you given me that I can rely on you for childcare when you still to this day stay out until 4 a.m. Ashby: Yeah. No. And then they have that whole like DJ conversation where he's like, Coco: So now we're in season 10 and he has been in between season nine and season 10. He has launched his DJ career and he's touring all the time being a DJ. when the season opens season 10, ⁓ she drives up separately from The first like scene that she is ⁓ she is so. ⁓ Ashby: you know, mm-hmm. Coco: She's angry at him. She's ⁓ resentful. She's kind of crossed the line. What is the word that you always say when the relationship can't ⁓ be Ashby: once you reach contempt. Coco: Contempt, yes, so she has contempt. Now. Ashby: Once you get there, it's very hard to come back. Yeah. Coco: audience discourse around this and like podcast discourse was so like, it's kind of hard to watch a man to be such a bitch to Kyle. And I'm watching it and I'm like, I've never felt more alive. Ashby: Excuse me. Coco: She's happy, she's having fun, and she's having fun with other people and she's irritated when he breathes, it's true. But she has spent a night. Yes! Yes! Yes! Ashby: She's in bitch-eatin' crackers territory, but she's earned it. This bitch has earned it. And that bitch DO be eatin' crackers weird! Coco: Well, and then she reveals an episode or two in that part of the reason why she's like particularly on edge is that he spent the night out. He spent the, he didn't come home and he spent the night at a fan's house. And she's talking in several of the like testimonials that she's, she, we saw that earlier version of her where she's freaking out and calling him over and over again. She's like, I don't even bother anymore. I just like wake up and I just see all my DMs on my phone. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: and I just like ignore it and just move on. And she's like, I don't know if Kyle's cheating on me. Like it's a different version of her where on the one hand she seems so much more like healthy and happy. And also she sort of like shut down to dealing with him. She's moved on. Yeah. Ashby: Yeah. She's compartmentalized it, yeah. Coco: ⁓ And so what happens is then he's complaining out at a bar earlier in the season, ⁓ this current season that's airing now, filmed in 2025. And he's complaining about the fact that they don't have a sex life. that their house is messy and that she smokes weed He paints this portrait of like a loser stoner person that doesn't have their life together. ⁓ And then she explains like in the testimony, she's like, I smoke weed at like between like 10 and 11 at night after I take the dogs out to walk. ⁓ She's using it to sleep. She's talked her anxiety and depression a lot of the time. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: And I do think that there's like an age thing or demographic thing here where Kyle, it doesn't matter how many bottles of Rose he's taken to his actual face. You know, he sees that as like legitimate substance use, but Amanda's use of marijuana is kind of categorized as younger and he's applying all these outdated stereotypes about stoners to his wife. And again, reiterating this kind of like idea about her as being a lazy person. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: Well, she gets mad at him and then he tries to make that public apology I mentioned at a table and then it goes really poorly. And what has kind of gradually changed where we started off like, what is the cast of the show? Kind of what's the power center of the show? What is the kind of subtle cultural values of the show? Is that, I think those people are smoking weed with Amanda out by the hot tub that's not on camera. You know, I think that ⁓ those people... Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The world has moved on. Yeah. Coco: are friends with Amanda, they're genuine friends with Amanda. It is not because she's a, mm-hmm. He's gone, he's gone. Well then, this scene comes up where Kyle, basically, think West tells him, you need to give her a real private apology. Saying the same kind of thing that Ciara and Paige were telling him, but he can't hear it from them, but he can hear it from a white guy, you know? Yeah, and so we see this guy. Ashby: And you know what? They've had time to be friends with her because her husband is gone. Yeah. Okay, cool. Coco: Here we go. Gonna turn the volume on. This is just an excerpt. Sorry, repeat it at the end there. But I think that's, you see Wes saying he's a baby. it's, the men themselves are also like clocking this and not on board and not enjoying him. Ashby: Wow. Yes! No, because like, how many years of this have they listened to at this point where the conversations always go the same way. Someone says something to him and he is incredibly defensive. And ⁓ there's never any ending to it other than he storms off, know? Like I would think even your friends are very sick of you at that point. ⁓ And so there's, I think everyone feels like they've been like, unfortunately in this relationship also. And they're like sick of it. Yeah. Coco: It could even manifest in a different dynamic. Like, it doesn't have to be even a romantic partnership, but yeah, it's recognizable. Ashby: They just like they would just love to hear this fucking 40 year old man for once say, you know what? You're right. There's something I could do there to work on that. Coco: Well, and what wasn't in that social media clip is that she's like, because I keep waking up to DMs of people saying that you're making out with somebody, and she's like, I don't even tell you about them anymore because it's so frequent. that's, ⁓ like, you're boiling it down to just my drinking. And she's like, it's because like, this is the situations in which you cheat on me. ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he, he's Coco: know. ⁓ Ashby: She's She's like, yeah, ⁓ if you could drink healthily, that obviously wouldn't be a problem. But national television, I'm talking about the fact that you're cheating on me constantly. I'm letting it be about your drinking, there are plenty of people who are in relationships who drink, but you have other behavioral problems that are tied to that. ⁓ he's just like unwilling to see it. he has this fascinating narrative, which is she's driving him to drink him to have Coco: As if he wasn't drinking from the first scene, he started the show wasted talking to Stassi. Ashby: as if he doesn't own a fucking liquor company and is trying to be a late night DJ. And then second of all, the fact that she doesn't have sex with him is the ⁓ reason that he has to clearly what he's seeding. Coco: ⁓ mm-hmm. It's so like a cycle. Yep. Ashby: and not like, I don't know, maybe she doesn't wanna get fucking chlamydia from you. Like that might be part of it. Coco: Maybe you're not attracted to her because you act like her parent and her child at the same time. Ashby: Also, when would she have sex with you? Exactly, 11 a.m.? Sorry, that's peak productivity time. She's gotta be on the fucking clock. She better be cleaning up the house and running your brand. When should she do it? Coco: At one point he says that he had her mother come to their apartment and clean it. There's no way we could include everything in this podcast. Ashby: He should be so embarrassed. It's so embarrassing. Okay. Well, I just want to say that reading the Marie Claire article, she's very kind about him and she keeps saying that they're on the same team. They just happen to be divorced now. And she's very clear that she doesn't want the public to cancel him or hate on him. She also kind of leaves an open question of whether she might or might not be on the hook for his business. Coco: Yes. Yes, she is. Uh-huh. Yeah. Ashby: And that tells me that she needs his reputation to not tank so much that she's financially trapped by this man for forever. ⁓ But he is the literal cause of of this. So, okay. Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now we're going to go to our final clip of the day. This is the most recent episode. You'll see in the title what happens. here. Ashby: Yes. ⁓ yeah. Coco: And then that scene goes on for actually like a really long time. These are like social excerpts from these scenes. ⁓ And it's unique because it from literally nowhere. Kyle is in the house, like DJing in their little house party and they're dancing. And then eventually all the people kind of go out to the hot tub and he's left alone. And then he walks outside. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: And he just looks at Amanda and says, fuck you. And then the house is like, that was not provoked. They're not fighting. He just walked outside and said, fuck you to his wife. And West goes and confronts Kyle in this way that's like not aggro, but it's just like, that was totally unprovoked. Like say you're sorry. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Coco: The straight men are also like, wait, I'm kind of concerned about what this interaction is, like what's happening. And West actually goes into the bedroom and talks to Amanda for a while and talks to Kyle. And it's like, it's a little bit like someone's on guard, like something is happening here and I'm just going to step in. And I just think that there's like, it's really horrible that we have to watch all of this stuff. It's horrible that like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: this relationship has played out for as long as it is. And it's horrible that the audience didn't see it for what it was for so many years. But I think that it's like, I'm also encouraged that these representations happen to some degree because people then recognize patterns and they grow from it. ⁓ Andy Cohen said something about this is Kyle's worst episode ⁓ And we now have gone through and said, this is not out of the ordinary at all. And Amanda in scene, that prolonged scene, she's like, this is tame. Ashby: Not at all. Hehehe. Coco: Like this is tame. Yep. ⁓ Ashby: Yes, I know. She's like, ⁓ please, that is what is so sad is that this is how he acts on camera around his friends. essentially people that he ⁓ sort of respects or at people that have power to ⁓ hurt reputation or help his reputation. Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And this is how he treats his wife around them on camera. Like this is his job. Like this is his brand and he's fucking it up and it's all him. at it's encouraging to that people's friends have a role in this and that Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. Ashby: And that while it sucks and it's not cool, maybe it's helpful for men to see that certain kinds of toxic behavior, a woman cannot stop it. They actually do need the interference of their male friends. know, maybe that makes some men more comfortable instead of feeling like they're stepping into other people's business, but... Coco: Yeah. Ashby: Beyond that, I hope that it also, like you said, makes them more aware of their own behavior, where they're like, wait a minute, this is like not okay. And I would expect that if I were to say this or do this, someone will come up to me and let me know that. And then therefore, when I see this happening, I expect that I will go up and let them know, hey, this is not okay. Like, I'm so sad because I just know in my stomach that... Coco: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: a lot worse things have happened to her off camera and it makes me very sad. Like that's the part. Coco: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because we're talking about reality TV and like the ethics of it and there's, you know, I don't feel like great about my consumption of Bravo stuff, but she says on in this season, she's like, and she says it, I think also in the Marie Claire interview a little bit where she's like, people have been telling me to divorce him for years. She's like, thousands of people are telling me to divorce this man. it may, she says on the show, it's like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: and it made me look at my relationship differently. And it's also like, because other people say, girl, like, this is not, you shouldn't have to deal with this. This is bad. This is a bad pattern. This is toxic. Like some of that got through to some degree. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I don't anyone should discount the sort of external ⁓ audience for like the marriage. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: it really does have ability to shape what those dynamics look like ⁓ for better and for worse so I think this is prime ⁓ example of that yeah but they platform this man for too long like ⁓ like the fuck yes please ⁓ please give me some give me some catharsis what what's going on with this shit Coco: Right. Yeah. And he's getting his own, this is, really, I'm sorry. He's getting another show. He's getting another show. Ashby: ⁓ as Hannah said, stupid little leprechaun. What's going on with him now? What's happened to him since this? Coco: He's still DJing. Kyle Cook is out there DJing. ⁓ And you know what? Maybe that's where he belongs and that's fine. So he's out there DJing. They're divorced. They live separately. They share like the dog, you know, responsibilities. They split them. then, ⁓ hmm. There is another show called In the City that has been filmed already. ⁓ that's going to be airing that was filmed after this most latest season of Summer House. So I don't think we're at the end of the Kyle and Amanda divorce storyline because it will probably play out in that show as well. ⁓ But that is a little bit like you can tell that these people are graduating like Lindsay Hubbard. It kind of doesn't come every weekend. She's 39 and she has a child now. it's like, they're like, what are we gonna do with these reality stars we have? Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: that don't really belong in the summer house setting anymore. ⁓ And Amanda will be one of those people ⁓ in the city. Yeah. There's also like, I would say like, there's a lot of silliness in this season that's also really fun. Ashby: Mm-hmm. for in the city. Okay, so that's what's coming out. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but ⁓ okay. Is he there's ⁓ he's not any kind of I'm sorry statement. Okay. Coco: Yes, he has. Uh-huh. So he, you he take, this is partially Kyle is better than some of those other people that we see on like Southern Charm or on like The Valley, but it's also a little bit tricky. So he has like put out an Instagram post after this most recent one that was like, my behavior was horrible. ⁓ And both Kyle Amanda have done a good job of like like BravoCon and like at these like publicity moments for the show. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: spoken well of each other, been respectful of each other, can be in the same room, like aren't fighting with each other. And partially that might just be like, because they are happy or broken up. ⁓ And part of it is like that he's not following the arc of like someone like Craig, who then just like immediately blamed Paige for everything and like has kind of all these like, these narratives around her. but I do feel like, Ashby: Yes. Coco: Paige so publicly going through that last season with Craig and kind of demonstrating the reasons why they don't belong together on camera and then breaking up with him may partially have been like, Amanda seems like she's done with this relationship already at the beginning of this season, but maybe it's part of it's like, let's get it on camera. because these ⁓ audiences have been so hard on the and so apologetic of the men's bad behavior ⁓ that they kind of this evidence Ashby: Yes. Yes. Coco: helps. Ashby: that's on them, because of these men act like they fucking hate their wives and their but they won't divorce them. They won't break up with them. They will never take the initiative. they think that if ⁓ the girl breaks up with they get to do a victim narrative. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: and then it'll seem like they were always trying right up till the end. They can play brokenhearted. but like that's what they fucking get. If you're not to end the relationship on your terms, then you should get Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: you should absolutely be filmed ⁓ just being dragged for being a shitty boyfriend I also think that's important. Yeah. Coco: Well, we have 10 years of receipts. I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. so we'll include a lot of these things in the sub stack, ⁓ but also ⁓ that including that Marie Claire with Amanda. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: And then there's also an issue, ⁓ an essay in The Cut called So Long Housewives, Hot Divorces Run Bravo Now Alyssa Vinyan. maybe we can have you read this quote. Ashby: Okay. The Bravo men are all masters at portraying themselves as the victim, but luckily for their former partners and women stuck in similar dynamics watching at home, the truth is caught on tape. Their stories make it clear that getting into a bad marriage is nothing to be ashamed of and that my divorce didn't make me a failure. We've witnessed men embarrass their partners and wives on Bravo for decades or for two decades. It's cathartic that we now get to watch them break free. Yeah, I love it. And it's like I've said again, Coco: Yay! Ashby: which is that ⁓ divorce is ultimately good. It is actually a good thing. It's not the end of the world. some of stuff is stuff I don't think can be necessarily fixed by just like not getting married. Coco: Yes! Ashby: I don't think that the takeaway should be like, no women should ever get married. Cause I just think they had to kind of go through this to arrive at the type of person that they are now. Cause you only can do things with the information that you have. So I just, I just hope people don't take away from this, like protect your heart at all costs kind of thing. but more like, ⁓ Coco: Yeah. Ashby: recognize when things are not working sooner and advocate for yourself and that also like a marriage not working out is not the end of the world, you know. Yeah. Coco: Right, right. And I mean, I think it's, I just hope it's that people can see this behavior and name it what it is. Because if anything good comes out of shows like this, like I hope that's, because Bravo has a mass audience, right? Ashby: one of the things that I identify here is there's a ⁓ female feminine conception of love and commitment ⁓ as staying with someone and martyring yourself no matter how badly they act. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: you to love them and change them with your martyrdom. And then I think there's a male conception of love and commitment in these relationships that is ⁓ love should be radical acceptance. You shouldn't try to change me at all. you should accept every single bad thing about me. And then what you see is them sort of searching for the bottom, like where will she leave me? Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And that's not healthy. But I'm just saying it's a two-way dynamic where if you are young and you come into a relationship with the conception of, ⁓ well, I'll just love him through it till he grows up. ⁓ Then you're starting on a foot that's enabling that person to be like, if she doesn't accept me, then she doesn't love me. ⁓ now you're both seeing different things in same behaviors. Yeah. Coco: Yep. Ashby: ⁓ Coco: Something my mom has always said to me when I was younger was like, she was like, the thing about dating is they are always gonna be the nicest to you at the beginning. She really like emphasized, don't expect someone to change. people do grow and and can evolve and be kinder to each other over time or whatever, but it's like in your relationships, if they start bad, ⁓ it's probably gonna get worse. And think that that was, you ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: good advice. Ashby: Yeah, and I think Amanda says that in the article She was like, didn't think he was going to change, but you expect someone to grow up and you expect to grow together. And there's a sort of normal pattern of, ⁓ of relationships where you become like less social and you start to spend more time home and like have a more domestic life. Coco: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ and even like this whole like kind of fuck you moment at this most recent episode, it's just because the people leave the dance floor party and they go to sit by the hot tub. And he is not just mad at her. He's mad at everyone. You're not having the kind of fun that think is fun. That's maybe from 10 years ago. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: both behaviorally and also like kind of how people want to hang out now. Like it's just a different energy. I am saying as a viewer of the show, I'm like, those people sitting around that hot tub, that's a fun group of people. They're like genuinely good personalities. They're fun. They're not just like kind of stupid reality TV show that you TV characters that you hate watch. You kind of like root for them and like them. And he's somebody who does not fit in there. And so that wrath is all going to get targeted towards his wife. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No. Coco: But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: And I'll just say that like Hannah called it, that was how he was acting so much earlier too, which is he didn't like people talking when he didn't think they should be talking. He didn't like people sleeping when he didn't think they should be sleeping. And by people, I do mean women. ⁓ He didn't like that he... Coco: Yeah, I know. know. Younger, women who are beautiful. ⁓ Ashby: yeah, not just being like not respecting his authority. thanks. You're, you. Coco: No one has ever looked dumber than him DJing by himself inside their house. It's so funny. Ashby: Oh my god. It's so... Ugh, god. Coco: ⁓ so fun to be chatting with you about Summer House. Thank you for letting me take you on this ⁓ ⁓ hetero-fatalist journey. ⁓ But ⁓ looking forward to our next conversation about Lindy West's memoir, Adult Braces, where we talk about the book and the discourse. Ashby: Yep, and I think you'll see a lot of similar themes about how men and women, husbands and wives get ⁓ treated in the discourse. okay, sounds good. Bye, Coco. Dad traumatizer, LLC. Coco: Yes, they naturally lead into one another. Mm-hmm. And yeah. All right. Bye, Ashby. Okay,