Latest / The Body Pod / RE-RUN - Flexible Dieting with Alan Aragon - The Ultimate Guide to Nutrition for Women

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RE-RUN - Flexible Dieting with Alan Aragon - The Ultimate Guide to Nutrition for Women · The Body Pod

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Body Pod everyone. For our summer rerun,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: we are reintroducing the Alan Aragon Flexible Dieting podcast, which
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: was one of our most popular in season one. So
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: if you aren't familiar with Alan Aragon, I'm going to
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: do a quick rundown. Alan is a nutrition researcher and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: educator with over thirty years of success in this field.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: He is known as one of the most influential figures
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: in the fitness industry's movement towards evidence based information. He
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: is the lead author of the ISSN position stand on
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Diets and Body Composition. Alan is the Chief Science Officer
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: of the Nutritional Coaching Institute and the founder and editor
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: in chief of Alan Aragon's Research Review, the original and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: longest running research review publication in the fitness industry. Alan
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: is also the author of Flexible Dieting, which we will
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: be covering in this podcast. And Alan maintains a private
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: practice designing programs for recreational and professional athletes and of
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: course regular people striving to do their best. So we
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: will jump right in and learn from one of the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: pioneers in the fitness industry, Alan Aragon. Hi, everyone, my
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: name is Haley and this is Lara and welcome.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: To the body Pod. Welcome back to the body Pod everyone.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: We have the Alan Aragon here. We are so excited,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the man of the hour and we are going to
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: dig into all things nutrition. So welcome Alan.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Hailey and Laura.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: It is an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: so much for having me.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Well, we can't wait to dive in. We have we've
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: had people send in questions and we have a bunch
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of our own. But as you know, you're kind of
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: known as the pioneer and the evidence based nutrition space,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: and let's just start there and talk about like, well,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you have this book that we already we already introed you,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: the Flexible Dieting, And this came out two years ago?
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Was it two years ago?
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  Speaker 4: Alan?
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  Speaker 3: Roughly two years ago?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, Because I was promoing it, I was
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  Speaker 2: like as one of my twelve days stocking stufferst it
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  Speaker 2: was like, everyone needs to get this. So your book
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Flexible Dieting, What does that? What does that mean?
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  Speaker 4: It? In a nutshell, it means individualizing programs instead of
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  Speaker 4: cookie cutting programs. And that is really the essence of
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: what flexible dieting is. And a lot of people mistake
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: the term flexible dieting with They actually conflate it with
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  Speaker 4: counting macrograms, when nothing further from the truth. Counting macrograms
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  Speaker 4: is one of many dietary approaches. Flexible dieting is all
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: about being flexible with the dietary approach that you take,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: and also not having a dichotomous view of foods and dieting,
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  Speaker 4: in other words, not looking at foods or diets as
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  Speaker 4: good or bad, black white, all or nothing type of mentality.
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  Speaker 4: So that's that's really what flexible dieting is. And and
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  Speaker 4: the book is actually mistitled, I think, because I think
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  Speaker 4: a more accurate title for the book would be evidence
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: based nutrition or you know, evidence based non clinical nutrition.
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  Speaker 4: But yes, you know, but but Brett Brett told me
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  Speaker 4: I have to title the book flexible Dieting in order
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: for it to be it.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: So so yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Brett Coultrest knows how to make hits, so I listened
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  Speaker 4: to him.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it well. So different than if it
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  Speaker 2: fits your macros, because I know some people kind of
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  Speaker 2: intertwine those two. Flexible dieting if it fits your.
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  Speaker 4: Macros, absolutely, yeah, they're totally different things. Flexible dieting is
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  Speaker 4: when you go back into literature in the late nineties,
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  Speaker 4: it is a cognitive style of dietary restraint. So there's
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  Speaker 4: rigid restraint and there's flexible restraint. And rigid restraint sees
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  Speaker 4: foods and dieting and the dieting process in black white,
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  Speaker 4: all or nothing good bad terms, whereas flexible dieting sees
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  Speaker 4: a gray scale. And as long as you're doing most
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  Speaker 4: of your stuff right and you're trending forward in your progress,
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  Speaker 4: you didn't blow it if you just had a bad
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  Speaker 4: day or you know, a bad moment. And so that's
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  Speaker 4: really what flexible dieting is, and it's rooted in a
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  Speaker 4: study of different types of restraint that goes back to
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  Speaker 4: the seventies in the psychological literature. Has nothing to do
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  Speaker 4: with if it fits your macros or counting macrograms.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's more what ends up working for you, which
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  Speaker 5: I think makes the most sense because different people thrive
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  Speaker 5: with different like a different prescription. I think some people
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  Speaker 5: really do well with the all or nothing, no wiggle
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  Speaker 5: room at all, and other people blow it in the
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  Speaker 5: first week and give up because they kind of need
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  Speaker 5: that great area.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like, do you find that.
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  Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, And I even think with a single person,
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  Speaker 4: their needs whether it's a rigid approach or a flexible approach,
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  Speaker 4: can vary across the course of a year, depending on
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  Speaker 4: the season of training even and so so yeah, totally agreed.
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  Speaker 2: So Alan, why is like I only work with women
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  Speaker 2: over the age of thirty five, most are like late forties,
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  Speaker 2: early fifties, And I just started like this, this program
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  Speaker 2: that I launched a few weeks ago, and there's you know,
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  Speaker 2: thousands of women in this group and they're just so
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  Speaker 2: confused about nutrition. So why is the general public? Why
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  Speaker 2: is it so confusing? Like it's food.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, when you've been in this for as
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  Speaker 4: long as as as we have, it just seems easy
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  Speaker 4: and intuitive. But the fact of the matter is, like
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  Speaker 4: we have had an extensive education that safeguards us against misinformation,
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  Speaker 4: and so most of people's nutrition knowledge is gained from
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  Speaker 4: just randomly on the internet, and it is an absolute
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  Speaker 4: mindfield of misinformation out there. The majority of articles are
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  Speaker 4: just really poorly written, they're just very non rigorous and
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  Speaker 4: sometimes they're just flat out vs just trying to sell something.
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  Speaker 4: Usually they are, and so the public is faced with
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  Speaker 4: just waves and waves of misinformation, and then I guess
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  Speaker 4: that would be one of the main reasons. And then
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  Speaker 4: the other big reason that the public is so confused,
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  Speaker 4: and this is sort of a kind of an intuitive reason,
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  Speaker 4: is that they just don't have the critical thinking skills
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  Speaker 4: when it comes to nutrition. They might have critical thinking
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  Speaker 4: skills when it comes to their own job, their own occupation,
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  Speaker 4: their own family relationships, but when it comes to nutrition,
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  Speaker 4: they just literally don't. They don't have the science literacy
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  Speaker 4: to deal with these bits of news that float through
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  Speaker 4: the media. They just have no idea what to do
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  Speaker 4: with it. And if it comes from an MD, or
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: if it comes from their favorite guru, then well, of course,
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  Speaker 4: oh well it's got to be true. They just don't
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  Speaker 4: have the skills to critically analyze these things. And then
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  Speaker 4: the third reason why everybody's so confused about what to
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  Speaker 4: eat is because everybody has to eat, and so therefore
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  Speaker 4: a lot of people just think they're an expert at
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  Speaker 4: this nutrition thing just because they've achieved a certain amount
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  Speaker 4: of success with either their own body composition or their
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  Speaker 4: athletic performance or both. And when people experience personal success
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  Speaker 4: with something, then they form this emotional attachment to it.
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  Speaker 4: And they end up preaching it through. It's almost like
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  Speaker 4: me calling myself a marriage and family expert because I've
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  Speaker 4: had a successful marriage. Okay, so now I'm going to
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  Speaker 4: go preach the universal gospel of how to how everybody
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  Speaker 4: needs to treat their marriage. You know, it's like no, no, no,
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  Speaker 4: it doesn't work that way. So I think those are
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  Speaker 4: the main reasons why everybody's so confused about what to eat.
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  Speaker 4: It's misinformation, lack of science literacy. Everybody's got to eat.
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  Speaker 4: And then maybe a fourth reason is that the body
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  Speaker 4: is genuinely complex and it's easy to miss the big
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  Speaker 4: things that we consistently see as being true. It's easy
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  Speaker 4: to focus on the fringes and the weeds and blow
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  Speaker 4: those up in bigger proportion than they deserve. So so yeah,
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  Speaker 4: that might be a fourth thing is just the complexity
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  Speaker 4: of the body and how it's people focus on.
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  Speaker 3: The wrong things.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, well, and the you know social media, as you know,
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  Speaker 2: I love when you when you call people out. The
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  Speaker 2: debunking is so good because it's like the social media
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  Speaker 2: is like the wild wild West, like anyone can get
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  Speaker 2: a big following, anyone can preach anything, and it's really confusing.
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  Speaker 2: For the consumer, because you're like, do I believe this
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  Speaker 2: medical doctor that has a million followers or do I
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  Speaker 2: believe this person, you know, for whatever reason. And so
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  Speaker 2: it really is like I'm always referring to people who
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  Speaker 2: are much smarter than me. You you know Tony Battaji,
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  Speaker 2: who I partner with Stacy Simms. I just launched a
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  Speaker 2: course with like people that know way more than me,
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  Speaker 2: and then I kind of refer off of that. But
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  Speaker 2: for someone that is, do you think that there's any
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  Speaker 2: because the literature and the journals, if you're not in
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: this space, it's like where do you even start? Do
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  Speaker 2: you feel like there's a good place for people to
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  Speaker 2: go and like do the research like something that isn't overwhelming?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: God, that is I almost can never properly answer that
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  Speaker 4: question other than directing people towards just a handful of
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  Speaker 4: professionals out there. It's like, there really is no roadmap
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  Speaker 4: of where to get the good information. And it's tempting
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  Speaker 4: to say, you know what, go straight to the position
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  Speaker 4: stands of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. Go straight
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  Speaker 4: to the position stance. In other words, the consensus papers
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  Speaker 4: of the Academy of Nutrition and dietetics, go straight to
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  Speaker 4: the position papers of the National Strength and Conditioning Association,
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  Speaker 4: and go straight to the position papers of the American
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  Speaker 4: College of Sports Medicine. So when you think of a
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  Speaker 4: topic that you're confused on, like ketogenic diets, for example,
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  Speaker 4: the International Society of Sports Nutrition is right about to
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  Speaker 4: publish a position stand on ketogenic diets and how they
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  Speaker 4: affect strength performance and endurance performance and body compositions. And
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  Speaker 4: I know this because I'm on the paper, and so
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  Speaker 4: we're working hard. We're working hard to get this thing
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  Speaker 4: done and published. But that is going to be a
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  Speaker 4: go to resource on ketogenic dieting for those purposes. So
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  Speaker 4: I would say go straight to the position stance of
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  Speaker 4: maybe the Big four, the ISSN, the A n D,
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  Speaker 4: the ACSM, and the NSCA, and then you get the
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  Speaker 4: consensus knowledge basis for things related to nutrition and things
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  Speaker 4: related to exercise. Now here's the problem with saying that
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  Speaker 4: you can't necessarily tell the layperson to go ahead and
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  Speaker 4: read a consensus paper in the peer reviewed literature and
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  Speaker 4: expect them to understand it. So here we are back
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  Speaker 4: again with oh gosh, where does the lay person go?
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  Speaker 4: So me writing my book was my attempt to take
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  Speaker 4: a stab at benefiting the lay audience, who you know,
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  Speaker 4: they don't have these technical skills and this jargon knowledge
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  Speaker 4: required to understand the language that we speak. So I
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  Speaker 4: guess I would just want more of the evidence based
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  Speaker 4: professionals to write more books and like like what you
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  Speaker 4: guys are doing, reaching thousands in the in the lay public,
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  Speaker 4: in the masses, and hopefully that has a trickle down,
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  Speaker 4: trickle out effect in terms of making a dent in
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  Speaker 4: the collective knowledge of the general public. That's the best
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: that we can hope for, either that or all of
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: us here just blow up in popularity and get millions
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  Speaker 4: of followers each and then and then people will get
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  Speaker 4: sweat better information en mass.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well it's great. I mean, your book is fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: And what I love about it is it was easy
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  Speaker 2: for me to understand, but I'm in the industry. It
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: was when I know that my clients read it, like
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: whenever they read it and they report back to me,
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  Speaker 2: they understand it because you really lay it out for everyone.
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  Speaker 2: It's not just for people in the industry. It really
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: has a good broad approach to everyone can kind of
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  Speaker 2: understand it. And that's what I love about it because
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: there's very few books it's either too science y, too
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  Speaker 2: nerdy people are going to understand it, or it's too basic.
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  Speaker 2: So this really encompasses everything.
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  Speaker 3: So I appreciate that.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan, big fan. So how do you
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: feel about do you when you teach people? Do you
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: still train people in person as far as like nutrition
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  Speaker 2: helping with nutrition?
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I still maintain very small handful of clients, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I don't put it out there. I don't advertise that
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  Speaker 4: I'm working with people because I would have to just
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: continually turn people down. But I always maintain a small
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: stable so I can tak one one foot one pinky
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: toe in the trenches at all times, because I think
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: that when you stop working with people, you sort of
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: lose it. It's sort of like I use it or
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: lose it type of skill thing. Yeah, and even though
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: we've been doing this for decades, I think it's still
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: important to be able to work with people right now
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: because then you get the real time feedback of the
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: trends that are going on at the moment and the
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: challenges that people are facing out there in the current time.
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  Speaker 3: So yes, good point.
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  Speaker 2: So what would you say like, percentage wise, I'm so
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: curious because you clearly know it all. We're all learning
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: from you. So I mean, what percentage of people, like
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: would you say over your career? What like everyone has
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: the ability to lose weight? Yes, yes, so, but how
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: many people is this?
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: Like?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I look at it and in percentages anytime, Like Tony
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and I are running a fat loss course right now,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and there's always about a third of the people that
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: crush kill it, a third of the people that are
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: pretty good, and then a third of the people that
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: kind of drop off, and you're like, where did they go?
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Do you kind of find that? Like what do your
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: percentages look like? I mean, I know you have a
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: smaller group now, so maybe it's more like streamlined, But
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: do you find that everyone when you give someone macros
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: and information and all of this at first, they just
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: like take and run and everyone succeeds right off the bat.
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  Speaker 4: No, definitely not. And that's that's why our job, our
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: profession is so incredibly difficult. It's extremely valuable, but it's
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: extremely difficult. And I think, I mean, percentages wise, it's
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: really tough to say. I mean, I would love to say, hey,
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: nine out of ten people I work with our spectacular
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: success story, but that would probably be a bias to
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: that would be a biased figure. I think that, and
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: this is something that we as professionals come to grips with,
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: like you know, a little late in the game, where
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: we come to grips with the reality that we won't
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: be able to help everybody, like there are some people
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: that we just won't be able to help. And I
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: think that that is a combination of physiological and psychological reasons,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: with the psychological reason being maybe the stronger one, because
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: if you cannot help somebody change their behaviors, if there's
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: some kind of roadblock there, then you know that. Unfortunately,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of cases like that where the buck
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: kind of stops at irreconcilable behaviors and the inability to
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: change certain behaviors. I do acknowledge the fact that some
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: people have more in quotes stubborn metabolisms than other folks.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: There is a range there of a metabolic adaptation that
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: happens across individuals, and this is just recent data that's
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: come out. Vilay Eso La is the lead author who
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: looked at what happens with resting metabolic rate in male
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: and female physique competitors over the course of a pre
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: contest dieting cycle, their drop in resting metabolic rate can
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: be up into the one hundred I want to say,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: one hundred fifty or so calories, Like their resting metabolic
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: rate will drop one hundred and fifty calories below what
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: RMR drop would be associated with drops in lean body mass.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: So even if we if we round up to let's
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: say two hundred calories. And this was a kind of
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: a disturbing thing that was seen in the female competitors
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: who kept their lean body mass, even though they didn't
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: lose any lean body masks, their resting metabolic rate still
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: dropped about one hundred and fifty calories.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: That's not my.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Sucks, that really sucks. And and yeah, so these kind
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: of things do happen with the dieting cycle. And when
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: you also consider that there's a wide range of variation
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: across individuals in their drop in non exercise activity or
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: their spontaneous movement. So on average with dieters, and this
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: was a six month study that that's coming to mind,
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: the average drop in non exercise activity thermogenesis was two
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: to three hundred calories. So you know, if you add
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: those things up. If you add up the drop that
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: metabolic adaptation, that drop and resting metabolic rate, let's say
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: it can be up to two hundred calories in you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: extreme circumstances, and then you add the two to three
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: hundred calorie drop in non exercise activity, then you're looking
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: at burning four to five hundred calories less than you
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: once did and at the end of the dieting cycle.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: And then add together whatever other calories less you're burning
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: as a result of having a lower total body mass
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: just to move around through the course of the day,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: and it adds up. You can add up to I
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: want to say four four to six hundred calories that
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: you're screwed out of at the end of the dieting cycle.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: So that happens with some people. And when you combine that.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: With just the psychological aspect of how people respond to
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: dieting emotionally and how some people will not consciously or purposely,
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: but they will misreport calorie intake, they'll misestimate, they'll misreport,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: and or they will not tell you about binging or
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: mirar binging episodes. So you have a lot of variables
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: you're working with their You've got to keep an eye
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: on the physical, the physiological, the psychological, and that's why
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: our job is just so incredibly incredibly difficult.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, if somebody were to come to you and
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: they had been dieting pretty much their whole life, Like
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: I have women that are like, I can't remember the
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: last time I wasn't trying to drop calories and diet.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Would you start them? Would you say, okay, cool, we
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: can start tomorrow and we're going to take you in
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a deficit or would you make them wait for a
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: few weeks and like eat at maintenance and kind of
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: see what that looks like.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: That's a really darning good question. It kind of varies
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: with the individual. But what is really an interesting exercise
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: that you can do is just have the person commit
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: to reporting exactly what they eat. And sometimes people prefer
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: to do it with pictures. And if you do the
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: picture method, and make sure that you have them put
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: you know, keys or something that you know the actual
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: size of next to the meal, just for accurate scale,
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: so you know they're not having this tremendously.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Huge bowl versus little bowl.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: With no with no point of reference. Have them put
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: some damn keys next to it or something it's smart,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: and then just say, eat how you would love to eat.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: For the next two to four weeks, eat how you
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: would absolutely feel happy and satisfied with your life eating.
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: Just do that, but I want to see every little bit,
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: every little drink, every little piece of food, everything. And
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: then you know, surprisingly, like nine times out of ten
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: when you do this, they freaking love it. They're enjoying it.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: They're not restricting that and their weight barely budgets. And
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: so you both learn something. You both learned that A well,
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: most importantly, they learned that A they can eat how
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: they ideally want to eat and not just throw pounds
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: on their body. And then B you learn exactly what
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: their preferences are, what their patterns are, what their proclivities are.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: And then at the end of the four weeks that
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: they're just having this commitment to be accountable. And you
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: know what, sometimes they lose weight because people automatically eat better,
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: a little bit.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: More more diligent.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: You know, like they feel like they're being judged in
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: a way, but you have to assure them, I'm not
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: going to judge you. I want to see how you
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: would eat if you were to eat how you want
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: to eat, and sometimes they lose weight, and so it
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: can be this big epiphany by the end of the
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: two to four weeks, depending on how big of a
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: risk you want to take with this method. But a
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: lot of the times, you know, you have to find
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: these things out with people when they come to you
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: and say, I've been dieting my whole life, I've been this,
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: and I just haven't lost weight and all this stuff. Okay,
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: let's take a good look at how you eat, and
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: not only that, but how you would love to eat,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: and how and eat the way that you think you
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: would be able to eat for the rest of your life.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: And you know what, when they either maintain weight or
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: lose weight, which is a common thing after this exercise,
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: then it's a huge bonus for both of you, guys,
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: because then you can start from there and individualize their
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: program from there and tweak things and adjust them from
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: there without imposing too much of your references and values
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: on what they kind of know and love. And so
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: it's a pretty cool exercise if you're willing to take
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: the two to four week if they have that time,
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: you know, if they're not gunning for a family reunion
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: in six weeks. You can do this kind of thing.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's something that more people should try. Well.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: I love in your book when you say you use
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: the you know, teach people how to fish instead of
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: just handing them a fish. And literally, I mean, like
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I said, I only run courses for women the second
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: part of their life, and they all are just like,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: just tell me what to eat, Haley. Just this includes
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: a mill plan, right, And I'm like, nope, don't do
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: mill plans a out of my lane, Like I'm not
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: a registered dietitian can't prescribe a mill plan like technically,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: and then you don't learn anything, and it's really hard.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: It's fun to see how someone is at the start
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: of the course because it is questions and emails and
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: frustration and I'm failing all over the board. But then
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: by the end they're like these butterflies that they're like, Okay, well,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: you know I might not be perfect, but like, wow,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: am I different than I was ten weeks ago? And
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: if you hadn't had to struggle, I'm like, you have
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: to know what makes up the food on your plate,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: because if you don't, you know, of course, you're not
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: going to lose weight because you have no idea what
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: even is in that food. So do you like, do
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you prescribe? Do you believe in a magic macro number?
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: No?
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, And I gotta say it, it depends
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: on the individual and the population and the situation. So
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: if somebody will take an extreme example, which you know
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: you've dealt with and I've dealt with, of an entertainer
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: who has to look a certain way for either a
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: photo shoot or a movie shoot at a certain time
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: that is fast approaching, then maybe you can justify this
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: is what you eat, lock in and let's make sure
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: that this is nailed. So there are those scenarios. But
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: for somebody who wants to make lifestyle changes and they
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: have kind of the rest of their life to get
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: it together, I think it's super important to explain to
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: people that I can't just hand you a diet and
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: I hand you a script and expect you to follow
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: this thing from here on out. Yeah, it's just things
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: have to be sustainable. It's got to be sustainable. And
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: once again, one of the reasons why the statistic is
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: eighty percent of dieters gain their weight back. Only twenty
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: percent of dieters in the general public are able to
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: keep their weight off for more than a year. Okay, so,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: so long term weight loss is defined as keeping five
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: to ten percent of your body weight loss that weight
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: loss keeping it off for a year or more, and
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: eighty percent of the people who try that they fail.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: And one of the big reasons for that failure is
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: because of cookie cutter plans that are not individualized to
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: what the person can sustain. I firmly believe that to
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: be successful in the long term, you have to almost
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: look forward to the meals that you have in your day.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: You have to there has to be a very positive
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: outlook on what am I eating today? Oh, I'm looking
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: forward to meal one. I'm looking forward to meal two.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: I love meal three. Oh I just love my pre
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: bed you know, whatever it might be, and it can it.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: Really the goal really should be to be able to
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: look forward to your meals, hey, because if you're not,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: you won't be able to sustain the program.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I agree that sounds terrible, No, I mean I love
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: food so much like I would hate it if I
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: didn't like the food that I.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Was eating or deciding to eat every day.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: So in your book you talk about obviously anyone listening
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: to this podcast, they're hearing about protein and strength training
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: all the time, so most of them are like, oh, okay,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I get it, I get it. I get it. But
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: in your book you talk about protein overloading, like on
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: if we were look at a week and we have
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: X amount of protein to get every day, and that's
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: kind of what we're shooting for. And I have a
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: question about that in a second, But do you like
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: what is protein overloading? Is that what you called it
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: in the book, or.
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: I call it protein hyper feeds.
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: I love it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's sort of taking the concept of carb ups
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: or carb reefeeds and just making it protein. And I
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: did this on just sort of an experimental basis with
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: one of my one of my clients. This was back
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: in two thousand and nine. She was a marine at
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: one point, and she was actually a semi pro football player,
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: so she was just a really athletic person who wanted
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: to gain muscle and wanted to lose fat and was
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: open to trying some crazy stuff. So back in two
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: thousand and nine, we didn't have the wonderful research by
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Jose Antonio and his colleagues looking at very high protein
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: intakes and what happens there.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: So I kind of I off the record, did.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: Some experiments with my client, her name was Carla Fisher,
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: and some really interesting stuff happened because what I did
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: was I had her eat about two to three times
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: or her bodyweight and pounds in protein grams.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: Kind of what you what you would do with a carbohydrate,
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: except you would carve up a little bit more if
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: it were carbohydrate.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: But it's protein.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: So in any case, she would consume about two to
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: three times her bodyweight and pounds in protein grams. And
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: we would do this two to three times a week
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: and just see what happens. And kind of miraculously, what
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: happened was she recomped. In other words, she gained lean
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: mass while losing fat mass. And none of us really yeah,
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: she got the Holy Grail, and none of us really
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: knew how or why it happened. But fifteen years later
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: in the research, Joey Antonio and his colleagues are protein
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: hyper feeding folks, not really in the cyclical way that
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: I did, but on a linear daily way, and they're
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: seeing the exact same thing. They're seeing body fat loss
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: with lean mass gain. And even if they and technically
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: some of those studies don't show major differences in body
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: fat loss and lean gain. They basically show that the
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: extra protein you're throwing at people kind of disappears somewhere.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: And there's a number of mechanisms, a number of speculations
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: we can make as to where that extra protein is going.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: But the bottom line is it seems to be a
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: good tactic for dieters who don't necessarily want to continue
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: restrict So it can be a tactic for adding food
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: to the diet without any adverse consequences to the goal
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: of fat loss. And so that's been an interesting thing
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: to see across the literature and then many years ago
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: with clients, and so I think that it's one of
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: the tools that you can use for people who are
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: just tired of restricting. You just give them a protein
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: day or two in the week and just say, yeah,
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: go for it.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Well, and you were so ahead of the time, like
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you called this out fifteen years thirteen, whatever it was
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: ever many years ago. So can you prescribe protein on
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: ideal body weight, lean mass or just body like one
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: grand per pound? Since we're America.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we don't need those kill grouns out, where's
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: the freedom and kill grounds? I typically do goal body weight,
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: or if you want, there's ways to calculate ideal body weight.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: But all this stuff is really just a proxy for
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: lean body mass. It's just hard to accurately estimate lean
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: body mass. So I tend to use goal body weight
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: or ideal body weight. And this is congruent with what's
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: done in the literature because most of the protein research
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: in the literature is on people who are of a
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: normal body weight. So yeah, that's sort of the easy
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: way to do it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, then you get too high when you look
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: at someone that might be obese and you give them
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the number if you're doing one ground per pound, you're like, here,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: go have your you know, eight hundred grams or galleries
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: in whatever it is, I mean, a super high number.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: But then they're they're the carbs and fats are like, well,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: something takes a hit. But so we obviously we know
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: the protein. Okay, we go off of that, But does
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: do carbs and fats change the body composition all that much?
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Depending on if your high carb, high fat or vice versa.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: The disappointing answer, which I'm sure you're familiar with is no,
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: and we know that through a couple dozen well controlled
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: studies at minimum, and even within the past couple of years,
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: there was this great study involving Jeff Volek that looked
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: at a ketogenic diet versus a high carb low fat diet,
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: and the high carb low fat diet was the carbohydrates
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: in the diet were fifty percent of them were from sugar,
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: and they since they equated the protein intakes between the
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: groups and they equated total calories between the groups, there
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: were no significant difference in fat loss between the groups
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: at the end of the diet, which is pretty extraordinary
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: from number one, because Jeff Bullock was a part of
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: that and he's been touting ketogenic diets for the last
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: twenty years. And secondly, you know, you, at least theoretically,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: you think, oh, sugar is bad or whatever, but half
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: of the carbs coming from sugar did not negatively impact
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: fat loss. So that tells us that the carb fat
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: proportion of the diet should be individualized according to the
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: person's personal preference or according to their athleticals if it
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: calls for a certain amount of carbohydrate in order for
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: them to perform an endurance or performance type capacity, and
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: so yeah, it's actually a good thing that the carb
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: fat proportion can be individualized since we as practitioners can
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: tailor programs better.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So there's no I mean because again I'm just using
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: my experience, but I guess it's just the fixation on
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Hayley tell me exactly what macros to eat, and I'm like,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work that way. I can give you a guide,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: but like, do you have food sensitivities? What do you
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: prefer to eat? You know, and not get so dialed
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: in on a specific I mean there's ranges, absolutely, but
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: not a you know, two hundred and thirty two grams
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: for this or you know, whatever it is. It's really
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: the whole flexity flexible dieting approach is just giving people
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: permission to be like, you get to tailor this to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: your life. You get ownership instead of just being told
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: exactly what's going to work or what's gonna you know,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: what's this going to do for you? And you get
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to figure it out.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: So, Laura, what was the alcohol question. Let's go to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: the good stuff.
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: I know all of our questions how do you feel
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: about alcohol? And how do you track it?
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: Okay, So alcohol, How I feel about it? Oh man,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: it's a It's something that people have to take really seriously,
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: mainly because of its addictive potential. That's probably that's probably
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: the most important aspect of alcohol, because you never know
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: whether you're somebody who can develop an addiction to it,
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: and people really downplay that negative potential of it. And
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: among the general public, about one in ten one in
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: ten individuals develops some sort of addiction some level of
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: addiction to alcohol, so one intent people have some degree
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: of alcohol use disorder in the general public, and that's
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: kind of an alarming statistic.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: When I read that statistic, I was like, oh man,
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: that's pretty nighly knowing that one in ten people in
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: a given rooms has a problem with alcohol. And certainly
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: the pandemic did not help that, with people self medicating
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: and people, you know, trying to drink away the stresses
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: of life, and it's become a growing problem. But if
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: you're one of the nine out of ten people who
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: do not have an addiction to alcohol, and you're able
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: to consume it on a responsible and moderate basis, then
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: the literature converges on a one to two a day
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: being not harmful and in some cases possibly helpful depending
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: on the source of alcohol, with red wine having the
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: richest body of data.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: On its benefits.
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: So if you start going beyond one to two drinks
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: a day, let's say two to three drinks a day,
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: then you better be a larger person who can metabolize
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: that that kind of does. If you start going above
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: two to three drinks a day four plus, most people
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: are going to experience negative impacts on both their training
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: as well as their appetite. And both of these negative
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: effects are typically going to be rooted in the way
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: that alcohol or excessive alcohol negatively impacts sleep quality. And
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: so a lot of times what we see in the
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: literature with alcohol intake is that people spontaneously eat more
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: when they lack sleep. They just eat a significant amount
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: more calories just because the body is sensing some sort
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: of crisis. It's some sort of energy crisis that is
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: governed by this lack of sleep, lack of good sleep,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: and alcohol can do that. Not to mention, if you
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: drink enough and you have a hangover the next day,
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: then there goes your training session. Yeah, yeah, it's a
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: it's alcohol is something to be highly cautious about and
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: highly respected.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I agree with absolutely I And okay, my
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: next question is about intermittent fasting. What are your thoughts
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: on intermittent fasting.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: It is a viable tool for some individuals and the
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: main thing it's good for is controlling energy intake over
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: the course of a day or over the course of
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: the week. So if we look at the umbrella of
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: intermittent fasting, then there's three main sub types of intermitt
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: and fasting. There's time restricted eating, where you squish your
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: intake into a narrowed feeding window within the course of
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: the day, typically eight hours or less. And then there's
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: another model of fasting called the five to two method
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: or twice weekly fasting, where two days out of the
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: week you're not eating anything or you're only eating very little,
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: just a few hundred calories and you're netting a net
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: CLOrk deficit by the end of the week. And then
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: the other main model would be alternate day fasting, which
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: can be either zero calorie alternate day fasting, or it
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: can be a modified alternate day fasting where on the
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: fasting days you're having about five hundred calories, so it's
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: not technically a full blown fast. So with those three
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: subtypes of mind, and of course there are the dangerous
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: type of fasts that people do, you know, and record
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: it on YouTube, where they're going to be like I'm
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: going to go on at forty day water fast and
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: I'm going to film myself passing out.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Oh man, oh boy.
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's always that. But the viable models of fasting
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: are out there. And the interesting thing about these models
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: of fasting are that they can be done the feeding
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: phases of the fasting and feeding cycles, they can be
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: done on an unrestricted basis, So you can restrict somebody
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: to let's say a six to eight hour eating window
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: in a day, and they don't have to restrict. And
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: what ends up happening is they end up netting a
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: either eucloric balance or hyppo caloric balance, so in other words,
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: they end up either maintaining or they end up losing
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: body weight. So that would probably be the biggest pro
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: of intermittent fasting is that it allows the feeding phases
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: to be unrestricted, and this freeze people up if they
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: don't like to be meticulous about tracking. It kind of
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: absolves people from having to track, which is kind of
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: a cool thing for some people. So, you know, something
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: that I don't like about intermittent fasting is there's a
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: lot of mythology around it. A lot of people who
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: have become emotionally attached to their special IF through their
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: pet IF protocol will claim that this is the way
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: everybody needs to diet because it's the best way for
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: whatever reasons they give, when that is simply not true.
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: When you look at the literature on intermittent fasting versus
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: daily caloric restriction, you look at the body of research
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: as a whole, they're both on par with each other
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: in terms of their effectiveness for weight loss and fat loss.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: And you know, there's even caveats to be said about
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: alternate day fasting. There was a study done looking at
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: lean subjects and putting them through either daily clerk restriction
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: or alternate day fasting. This was lean men, and they
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: actually lost more lean body mass on the alternate day
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: fasting regimen than they did on the daily coloric restriction regimen,
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: even though the net CLOrk deficit by the end of
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: the week was equated.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: So there is a.
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: Point of diminishing returns for people who think that they
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: can just fast, you know, indiscriminately. And the other bit
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: of mythology that really kind of bugs me with fasting
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: is when people read these speculations by these gurus who
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: will either insinuate or explicitly say that we have to
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: put ourselves through periods of fasting in order to regenerate
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: or rejuvenate our immune system and avoid cancer and you know,
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: promote longevity. None of that has been demonstrated, none of
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: that has been in quotes proven. Frankly, I doubt any
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: of it is true. It's like, yeah, and what the
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: body of research on this area, looking at changes in
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: clinical parameters between intermittent fasting models and daily cleric restriction models.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: The magic really happens because the person lost weight, because
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: the subjects lost body weight, because the subjects were able
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: to control energy intake. And so it's impossible to disentangle
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: the clinical benefits of intermittent fasting or fasting period time
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: restrictive feeding included. It's it's almost impossible to separate the
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: clinical benefits from the weight loss that happens, from the
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: fat loss that happens. And now kind of getting into
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: the weeds a little bit here, there are a handful
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: of studies that show superior glucose control benefits with moving
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: the feeding window to the earlier part of the day
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: instead of having this conventional pattern of intake where you
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: eat from morning tonight. Okay, and there is some literature
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: showing that if you were to compare two time restricted
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: feeding models and early time restricted feeding and a delayed
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: time restricted feeding, so in other words, either skipping breakfast
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: versus skipping dinner, then the skipping dinner model tends to
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: show better glucose control. But this is all short term research.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: So there's a particular study that stands out by lou
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: Liu and colleagues where they looked at the twelve month
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: effect where they compared a conventional eating pattern of eight
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: am to eight pm with an early time restricted feeding
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: pattern of eight am to four pm. No significant differences
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: in body composition improvements, and improvements in clinical parameters like
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: blood lippets and blood glucose.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: And so once.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: Again that tells us, oh, it's this really unsexy null
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: effect at the end of the rainbow. But hey, this
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: is great in the sense that you can tell people that, hey,
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: we can do this according to your personal preference if
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: you like to restrict your feeding window and you find
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: that helpful. Great, If you don't, great, let's go with
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: what you can sustain. Because there's no meaningful difference in
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: health improvements body weight and body fat loss improvements between
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: these two models. So that's sort of the long minding story.
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: Because what about if you pick one of these intermittent
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: fasting models and you make sure to have your correct
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: protein intake? Is their effect on building muscle as long
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: as you get the correct protein intake.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: See, this is a damn good question. And we can
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: really only look at Grant Tinsley's work. He's done most
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: of the work on time restricted feeding combined with resistance training,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: and he's largely seen positive favorable effects with the time
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: restricted feeding plus resistance training because restricting the feeding window
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: tends to corner people into eating less overall, and it's
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: been pretty effective at that, and the resistance training enables
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: people to keep their lean body mass while they're doing that.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: But just kind of panning backward and looking at the
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: big picture, if somebody's main goal is to gain muscle
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: and not necessarily just retain it a diet, then all
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: of the intermittent fasting models are suboptimal for that goal,
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: because when you think of how muscle is built, it's
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: just net gains in muscle protein synthesis over time. So
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: muscle proteins, the synthesis side of muscle protein turnover, has
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: to outpace the muscle protein breakdown side of that cycle
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: over a period of weeks and months, and of course
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: throughout the day too.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: That counts.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: And so when people are going through fasting periods, they're
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: simply compromising the amount of muscle protein synthesis that can
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: occur on a short, mid and long term basis, and
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: so they're ultimately compromising their rate and potential of muscle growth.
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: If you're going to engage in any of these fasting.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Regimes, is there a certain how much protein do you
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: need to get to turn on muscle protein synthesis? Somebody
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: it's five grams in the morning. Is it the same
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: as forty grams?
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: Muscle protein synthesis related to protein dosing is more of
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: a dimmer switch than it is an on off switch.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: So you can see measurable degrees of muscle protein synthesis
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: with as little as ten grams of protein, but it
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: just happens to be higher with higher doses and there
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: happens to be a ceiling of muscle protein synthesis at
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: about forty to fifty ish grams of protein. So that yeah, yeah, FANTASTICO.
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: NPS is an interesting story. It's an interesting story with NPS,
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: and it varies with the population, varies with what's going
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: on in the protocol too.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Okay. So I have a series of questions
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: here about number one is there? What do you think?
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: And I know this there's not a specific answer here,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: but what is like the because I get asked this
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: all the time too, what's the ideal body fat percentage
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: for someone that's just like, I don't want to live
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: like I'm getting on a physique stage, but I also
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: want to be fairly lean year round and feel good.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: You know, Is there an average percentage? Because everyone wants
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: to know the exact percentage of what is ideal?
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: Okay, So there are some interesting recent research that looked
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: at body fat percentage and mortality. So how does okay,
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: body fat percent relate to when you're going to die?
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: And in the general population these percentages are pretty high
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: and women it averaged about thirty five percent and that
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: was like the lowest mortality was seen at about thirty
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: five percent body fat, and with men it was high
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: as well, so it was about twenty two percent body
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: fat for men with the lowest more brutality. So but
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: you know, this research is observational and there's a lot
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: of other factors going on with this, and you also
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: have to look at other bits of literature as well,
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: and so I kind of weigh this against previous literature
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: showing that normal healthy populations men that body fat percentage
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: range from about ten to about twenty and then in
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: women it was about twenty to about thirty. So, you know,
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: just because this is this new research rolled out showing
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: that mortality is lowest at thirty five percent men twenty
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: two percent women, you kind of have to look at
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: it a little bit skeptically, a little bit critically, And
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: there's other literature that's been repeated showing that roughly ten
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: to twenty percent men, roughly twenty to thirty percent women.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: Hedges your bets towards living a long, healthy life, you know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: just generally speaking, at the population level, certainly there are
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: people above thirty percent women above thirty percent who will
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: live you know, right long, vigorous lives, and there are
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: women below twenty percent who are going to be very
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: healthy as well. But just speaking in general terms, it
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: is a twenty ish to thirty ish thing for women
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: and a ten ish to twenty ish thing for men,
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: and this can vary throughout the lifestyle and what athletic
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: pursuits people are involved in as well. I mean, you know,
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: I'm looking at Haley, She's probably in the you know,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: high teens, maybe mid teens, you know, body fat percent
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: and doing just fine. But that's that's her as an individual,
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: and people just people differ in that. So it's important
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: to keep those ranges in mind, and it's important to
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: emphasize that I'm talking in general, not at the individual level.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so is there because this is second question, is
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: there a specific amount of lean body mass? Now, obviously
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: this is going to change based on height and weight
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and age, but like a good number should someone in
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: the one hundred and I don't know, fifty ish range,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: maybe one forty to one eighty Is that how much
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: lean mass? Would you say, five pounds someone should have?
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Obviously the higher the better for a lot of reasons.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: That whole question relates to fat free mass index and
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: fat free mass index is sort of like body mass index,
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: but you're looking at a fat free mass to height
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: ratio instead of a total body weight to height ratio.
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: And frankly, I mean, there's not a lot of good
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: data telling us how high should our fat free mass
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: index be in order to maximize health and maximize health
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: span and lifespan, because it's going to vary with the
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: individual's goals. There's going to be let's take one extreme
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: end competitive bodybuilders. Let's look at the drug free competitive bodybuilders,
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: whose fat free mass index can be anywhere from twenty
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: three to twenty five. Okay, so the way that you
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: would calculate fat free mass indexes you would take, well,
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: you'd probably want to find a calculator online and run
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: the numbers.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Through there instead of doing your finance.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: But their fat free mass index is about twenty three
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: to twenty five. The average untrained male their fat free
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: mass index is about nineteen. So you kind of get
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: to pick across that range. If you're totally on train
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: adult male FFMI of nineteen, probably that's probably not ideal.
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: You don't have to get all the way up to
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: twenty four or twenty five, because then you'd be a
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: competitive bodybuilder. But yeah, the answer to this question is
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: a little bit more philosophical than anything. You know, how
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: functional do you want to be, How strong do you
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: want to be? What kind of activities do you want
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: to be able to execute at a given age.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: You know, as.
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: People hit their golden years, most people are happy to
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: be able to get up and sit down and do
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: some gardening and not fall and break their hip. Whereas
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: earlier in the life cycle, when people are like twenty
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: to let's say, twenty to forty to fifty years old,
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: they still want to push some weights around, they still
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: want to do some sports, and you know, it's you know,
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: it really kind of depends on the life cycle. I personally,
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: when I hit sixty and seventy, stuff, I want to
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: be throwing some weights around.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: I want to be able to be stuff. I'm doing that,
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: and so.
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: Therefore there's always going to be in my case, there's
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: always going to be a push for an above average
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: amount of muscle that I want to carry.
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I love wonder how helpful that answer was.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's really hard because that's why
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: I'm always like, there's not it and they're like, well,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: so also said on the podcast, I'm like, well, I'm
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: not as black and white as just like throwing out
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: a number. But I love when doctor Gabrielle Lyon says
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: we're not over fat, we're under muscled. And that usually
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: falls into a lot of the women later on in
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: life that just didn't get the memo to strength train,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: and so they just carry a higher percentage. But if
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: we're talking about this is the last part of my
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: series Muscle, So if we're talking about someone new to
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: strength training, maybe around age forty, what is realistic that
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: some how much muscle of female best case because in
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: your book you talk about best case scenario and then
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: more realistic case scenario that a female can gain that's
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: new to strength training in a calendar year.
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: Okay, okay, And I just looked up the average fat
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: free mass of an untrained woman and it ranges from
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: sixteen point seven to nineteen Well, I'm sorry, fourteen point
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: six to sixteen point eight that's the average FFMI in
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: untrained women.
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: And in men.
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: It was about nineteen ish. It's like no, like, yeah,
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: about nineteen Okay. So you're asking a really good question
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: because if you consider. Let's so we're gonna start kind
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: of at the top and then work our way down. Yeah,
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: most women, from the being adult and from an untrained state,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: they have they have the potential to put on as
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: much as twenty to twenty five pounds of muscle on
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: the high end.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: On the high end, we're talking if you do everything right.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and over the course of a lifetime, the course
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: of a lifetime, the course of a lifetime, yeah, let's
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: say five Let's say over the course of a five
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: to ten year training career, that they can focus on
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: that goal. They have twenty to twenty five pounds of
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: muscle available to them if they have great genetics and
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: great focus, and all the factors in their life converge
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: towards allowing them to pursue this goal. So when you
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: think about that, when you think, let's take the upper end,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: Let's take twenty five pounds of meat that you can
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: put above and beyond your untrained state. If you're looking
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: at a five year period, you're looking at five a
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: gain of five pounds of muscle a year on average.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's really pretty minuscule, especially when you consider
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: that it'll happen more quickly at the beginning, and then
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: it'll start diminishing as you reach that potential. So the
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: first year, who knows, maybe you can actually put on
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: eight eight pounds, maybe even ten pounds of lean mass
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: if everything goes right. But then it just starts decreasing
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: with the consecutive years to where at the fourth and
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: fifth year you're lucky to put on under two two
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: to three pounds in those in those final years, and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: it is kind of I mean, it is kind of depressing.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: But when you think about it this way, this way,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: gaining ten pounds of muscle as a woman is spectacular.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: It's freaking spectacular. Okay, so gaining those twenty pounds is
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: just stratospherically incredible of muscle above and beyond the average
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: untrained person. So it's a slow grind. People have to
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: understand that there's no gaining muscle too fast phenomenon. There's
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: no oh my gosh, muscle is just flying on my
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: body exactly.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I mean what we've been talking about this all.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: Week on the.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and with men, it's about double like men can
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: expect a ultimate muscular potential drug free anyway. I mean,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: when we talk about you know, anabolic androgenic steroids and
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: stuff that just blows the whole that's a whole different conversation.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: But drug free men can put on at max from
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: compared to an untrained male, untrained adult male, about forty
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: to forty five pounds of muscle in the course of
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: a training career. So you're looking about double the amount
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: of muscle that that women can put on. And some
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: some women can come, you know, not necessarily close to that,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: but there might be. There's more, like, you know, a
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: thirty thirty percent difference between women, women who have good
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: genetics and men as far as the muscle gain potential goes.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: But yeah, even with men, when you think about like
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: a five to ten year training career, you're looking at
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: very small amounts of muscle on average per year. And yeah,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: and there are special cases we're talking about, like like
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: Phil Heath. He's been in the in the media a lot,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: so he's at the top of my mind. He took
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: about two years to turn pro when he started bodybuilding
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: after his college college basketball career. It took like two
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: to three years to win the nationals. So he would
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: represent the upper end of genetic gifts to be able
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: to put on muscle mass with enhancement going on. So
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, in theory, if you have great genetics, then
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: you can fulfill your muscular potential. And he even went
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: to put on even more muscle than that. But let's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: talk about like the regular mer mortals. In theory, you
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: can reach your potential for muscle mass in a lot
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: less than five to ten years if everything in your
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: life goes well and you have great genetics. But most
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: people will not be able to do that. So you're
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: not going to be able to see these gains of
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: what you know can consistent gains across the years of
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: one to two pounds of muscle a month type of thing.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: It just doesn't happen like that.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and it just gets really hard for women
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: once once they're post amount of puzzle and they don't
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: have that estrogen. It's I think that the overall theme
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: that you said, you nailed it when you said it
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: is a slow grind. Weight loss done the right way
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: is a slow grind. Muscle building is a slow grind.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: And living in the I want this now life that
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: we have access to really anything we want, most things
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: that we want really quickly. It's it's hard to step
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: back and just be like patience, longevity, play the long game,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: like no secret sauce here, Like that's hard work, consistency
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: and staying in the game. Then just like, yeah, this doesn't.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: Work, it's years. It's it's years of consistency. See, Like
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: it's hard for people to hear that. They want to
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: they want weeks of consistency to work, but it's not.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: You know, it is a years of consistency thing. Because
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: even if you're able to hit a certain goal within
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: a matter of weeks or a matter of months, who
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: cares if you can't sustain that for the next decade
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: or two or three depending on you know, how much
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: time you have left on the planet, Really, who cares?
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: So it is a matter of the long game. I
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: totally agree.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: It's like committing to your health for your lifetime, Like
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: I'm in it forever.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you never stop. You don't like get to be
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: to a point where you're like, Okay, well now I
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: can chill. It's going to chill in life. It's gonna
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: stay with me.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: Wait, the only way you can hold the clock back
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: is just by you know, making sure you're it's trying
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: to adapt yeah.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 5: Yes, Okay, I'm going to ask you one last quick
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: question and you can give a quick answer. It's for
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: it's not for Haley.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: Actually that was a joke.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: What are your thoughts on diet soda and is it
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: a death sentence or not?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: Oh man, Well, just just.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: You can say I don't.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: Whoever has uh, you know, Haley's physique can just appeal
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: to their own authority.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: Basically, That's what I would recommend. That is a good answer.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: Okay, So well, with a question like this, the only
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: thing you can appeal to is the weight of the
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: research evidence and diet sodas the only caveat to them
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: is not their artificial sweetener content, because across the majority
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: of experimental studies, it shows that they actually help with
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 4: body weight control, weight loss, they actually help with sustaining
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: a clerk deficit. All of these fear mongering threats about
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: diet soda leading to you know, either weight gain or diabetes,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: or heart disease or cancer, all that stuff that's all
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: speculative and it's all based on very weak in quotes evidence.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: So we can pretty much toss out the idea that
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: that diet sodas are a threat to health if anything,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: they're kind of like a they're a key code to
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: making your your your health health good and sustaining the health.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: I mean that you would have to drink literal gallons
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: upon gallons of the stuff to even theoretically incur the
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: dangers that that that people wave around in the media.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: So now with all of that said, there are some
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: some energy drinks or diet diet drinks that contain like
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: one to two to three hundred milligrams of caffeine per can,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: and so people have to be mindful of that that
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: they're not drinking, you know, three four cans of those
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: things a day if they contain caffeine. Because at the
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 4: general population level, the upper end of caffeine intake that
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: is still healthy or still not harmful is right around
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 4: four hundred milligrams a day. We look at if we
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: just look at population averages and what the threshold of
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: risk is in non pregnant individuals. With pregnant individuals, it's
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: it's a little bit lower, but for non pregnant adults,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: we're looking at four hundred milligrams on average is the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 4: most that you really should kind of start thinking of
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: cutting things off at Yeah, that's.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm nowhere near close to I know we're clear
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: over here.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: Good good, Oh my gosh, okay, Well, last question then
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: we're going to let you get off. What is this
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: has been such a fantastic hour, allan, what what is
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: something that as a scientist that you are, just you
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: in general, that have been on all of like tons
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: of these research papers and all of that. What have
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: you changed your mind on that was shocking or surprising
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: to you that you were like, hard fast rule, this
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: is what is true. And then all of a sudden later,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: you know, years down, months down, whatever, you're like, oh,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: well now I'm changing my tune because the research has changed.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: M okay.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: So there's three things that immediately come to mind, starting
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: from the most recent not epiphany, but like, okay, I
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: might I might change my opinion on this is the
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: concept that plant based proteins suck compared to animal based proteins.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: We always believe that, We've always wanted to believe that,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: because we all love our we all love our recent research,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: and just sort of a mounting kind of pile of evidence,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: short term evidence, and then now two studies comparing vegan
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: completely vegan group with against an omnivore group, both groups
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: consuming sufficient protein like one point six grams per kilogram
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: of body weight or zero point seven grams per pound
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: of body weight in both groups who are resistance training.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: No significant difference in muscle size and strength gains between
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: the vegan.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: Group and the omnivore group. And the vegan.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: Group in this one particular study I'm thinking about, they
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: used soy protein powder to boost the protein intake of
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: the vegan group to allow them to hit that one
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: point six grams per kilogram.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: Body and that was surprising.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 4: I mean, well, maybe not too surprising, But the reason
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: that it is surprising is because there was a lower
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: amount of essential amino acid intake in the vegan group
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: compared to the omnivore group, even though they used a
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: high quality plant based protein to boost the total daily
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: intake in the vegan group. Now there's still I'm still
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: skeptical about things. You could still look at things critically
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: and say, Okay, well, they used untrained subjects for that study,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: and so pretty much anything is going to work as
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: far as gains go for untrained subjects. Okay, But you
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: also have to face the possibility that okay, well, differences
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: in protein type might not matter nearly as much as
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: the fact that there is a progressive resistance training program
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: in place, and so vegans still, I mean, they're not
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: necessarily doomed to these major compromises and being able to
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: gain muscle size and strength that we kind of assumed
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: that they were, you know, traditionally. That was one one
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 4: thing that was a recent thing. And then another thing
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: I changed my mind on was the fact that intermittent
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: fasting is going to really mess up your gains, and
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: it's going to make you lose a bunch of lean
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: body mass, and nobody should go more than four or
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: five hours without eating something. So, you know, having kind
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: of come up during the fitness era of the eighties
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: and nineties, everybody was eating every like three.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: Hours with their tupperware.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: You know, they're like bringing their damn TopWare around to
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: not only keep muscle from falling off your body, but
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: keep your metabolism stoked, stoked the metabolic fires with small,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: frequent meals that act as kindling on this raging metabolic fire.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: This was sort of the you know, the metaphors that
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: we were taught that happens to be not true. The
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: human body is perfectly adept at apparently not eating all
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: day and still hanging on to muscle tissue as long
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: as the resistance training program is in place. And then
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: another thing that I've changed my mind on. I used
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: to really believe in the post exercise anabolic window. And
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: this was about twenty years ago when a bunch of
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: media was put out and a book was put out
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: by John Ivy and Robert Portman, a book called Nutrient Timing,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: where they hypothesized, actually they claimed that if you don't
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: take advantage of this magic thirty to sixty minutes post
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 4: exercise where you have to consume a quickly absorbed protein
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 4: and carbohydrate, then you're going to compromise your gains. You're
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: you're kind of like you're not doing all you can
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 4: optimize recovery and growth. And they focused on the post
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: exercise anabolic window. And over the subsequent I want to say,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: fifteen years or so, there was a pile up of
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: studies that showed that, hey, as long as total daily
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: protein is sufficient, then exactly where we place those protein
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: doses relative to the training about timing wise doesn't seem
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: to matter wow, and so and so, you know, you
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 4: don't have to have this way protein shake waiting for
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: you in the locker room, because way in dextros protein
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: shake waiting for you and in the locker room in
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: order to make the same amount of gains as the
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: guy who just drives home in traffic and has his
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: you know, steak and potatoes when he gets home. And
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 4: then my colleagues and I we did a meta analysis
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 4: and that can you know, confirmed this suspicion. A meta
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: analysis for the listeners is a pooled analysis of multiple
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 4: studies and sort of seeing what where the evidence leans
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: on that. And then we did a primary study, a
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: randomized control trial comparing immediately immediate pre exercise protein dosing
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: with immediate post exercise protein dosing, and there was no
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: significant difference between those two protocols in lifters. So that
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: was the third thing that comes to mind that I've
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: sort of let goal of this whole post exercise anabolic window.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 4: Now this isn't to say that there is some benefit
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: and some merit to eating some protein and or protein
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 4: and carbs after training. It's an opportunity to feed. It's
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 4: never going to hurt. But I think that for the
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 4: goal of muscle growth, people need to focus a little
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 4: bit more on well. Number one, total daily protein intake.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: That's going to take care of most of you most
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 4: of your goal. And if you want a nitpick at
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 4: the icing on the cake, then make sure that you
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: are eating protein and at least at least three points
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: spread through the day. That's pretty much everything we know
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: that can maximize muscle growth. And if you really want
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: to get technical and nitpicky, Brad and I Brad Showinfeld
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: and I we review the literature and came to the
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: conclusion that if you want to maximize muscle growth, then
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 4: the distribution of protein intake through the day should be
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: at least four feedings dosed at about point four two
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 4: point six grams per kilogram of body weight, and that
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 4: would that would amount to this sort of golden total
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 4: of one point six to two point two grams per
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 4: kilogram of body weight for the total. So yeah, I
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 4: just kind of threw that little thing in there.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: Bill, that was lovely. This is the perfect way to end.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: First of all, Alan, you're just incredible and you're you're
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: so easy to talk to and have the general population,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: which is what our audience is be a to understand
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: so many of the these issues that can be so
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: complex and overwhelming for someone to just kind of start
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: and not, you know, want to just quit after day
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: one because there's so much information. So I love your
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: book and Flexible Dieting, which is the name again for
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: anyone listening. You can get that at any bookstore Amazon,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: I think I got mine on Amazon anywhere that you
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: can buy books.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all over, it's all over the place. It
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: was even in uh was it Walmart at one point?
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, then you made a big time. You made it
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: big time exactly well perfect, And you have your website
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: which is.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 4: Is Alanarragon dot com Allanarragon dot com. And I'm really
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 4: proud of my baby, which is my research review, which
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 4: I've been doing every month since two thousand and eight.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 4: And so I would encourage people who are in really
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: into the details of stuff and the science and this stuff,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 4: then that would be a good resource. And yeah, I
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: want to thank you both. I want to see you
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: both again. That it's great meeting you and you guys
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: are both really great and I'm just happy to know
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: that such good folks like yourselves are doing such good
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: things for the industry.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: So thank you so much.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks Allen. We look forward to talking to you again.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we will do it again for sure.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening everyone.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 5: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 5: five star rating and sharing the body Pod with your friends.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: Until next time,