Latest / Infidels / Bush Quoted the Quran to Prove Islam Is Peace. Here's What it ACTUALLY Means. | Dr. Andy Bostom

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Bush Quoted the Quran to Prove Islam Is Peace. Here's What it ACTUALLY Means. | Dr. Andy Bostom · Infidels

• Richard Landes: Welcome to day seven of Infidel Awareness Month. Six days after 911, the President of the United States, George W. Bush, stood in the Islamic Center of Washington and told the world that Islam is a religion of peace and quoted the Quran to prove it. Today you're gonna learn. What the verse he quoted actually means according to the highest religious authority of Sunni Islam. Our guide is Dr. Andrew Bostom, and he is not a Middle East Studies professor. He didn't get a PhD in Middle East Studies. He's a physician, a professor of medicine, an epidemiologist, a man trained to follow evidence wherever it leads. And when scholars, whose actual job it was, refused for decades to edit and translate these texts for fear they would contribute to hostility to Muslims and to Islam, this good doctor did their work for them. Four massive volumes: The Legacy of Jihad, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism, Sharia versus Freedom, and most recently a modern Quranic Kampf Against the Jews. Tantawi on the Children of Israel and the Quran and Traditions. Thousands of pages of primary sources translated, documented, sourced, that the Academy should have produced and did not. So, whereas no Western scholar of Islam analyzed Bush's speech in terms of authoritative Sunni doctrine, Andrew Bostom is here to discuss. Begin with his lecture available at Infidel Awareness Month. And then join us for the conversation. So Andy. You saw the speech Andy Bostom: Yes. Richard Landes: and you saw the quote and you discuss it in your lecture, but just go over briefly what this quote that that Bush uses literally to prove that Islam is a religion of peace actually means to Muslim authorities. Andy Bostom: Well, okay, but he he he introduces it and closes it very briefly. And I think you can see right away how he's contextualizing it. And I think it's it's useful to to have those few lines. He says, these acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that. And then he goes on. The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Quran itself, and he's referring to a verse. In the 30th chapter or surah, the tenth verse. and he he his his translation is in the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of these of those excuse me who do evil, for that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule. and then he closes, Islam is peace. and and and so and the translation that he uses is perfectly adequate. You know, there are many there are many online translations now by pious Muslims, by academic Islamologists. And if you look at six or seven of them, you'll see that they it this is a perfectly acceptable translation. I think it's closest to the Saiy, the the standard psyche translation. But what so what I did, Richard, is is again, it it it could be a very appropriate context. I one would one would have hoped. and in fact It it really isn't. And and how do we how do we glean that? I I go to the the tofsier literature or the or the the commentaries, the Quranic commentaries. And the the man who who whose book you referred to, my my work on on Grand Imam Tantawi, who was also a great Quranic commentator, Tantawi set up a website which put online a hundred, approximately a hundred of the major tafsir's Quranic commentaries and literally going back from the seventh century into the into the twentieth and and even the twenty first century. And of course his own is there, his own multivolume Quranic commentary. And and just to get a sense of of how a modern major exegete and and Again, being Granny Mom of Al Azar University is is akin to the closest you'll get in in Islam, akin to a to a Pope. Al Azar is perhaps the major religious teaching institution in Sunni Islam, and Sunni Muslims make up about 85 to 90 percent of Muslims. So what was Tantawi's gloss on this? he he says at the forefront of this group, in other words, those who do evil were the polytheists. And again, this this means non-Muslims, non-Muslim pagans in particular. Polytheists of Mecca, to whom the Prophet was sent to to bring them, the disbelievers of Mecca, out of darkness into light. Their consequence in the hereafter was the worst and most heinous of punishments, which is the torment in hell. Because in this world they denied our, and he means the Muslims, our signs that indicate our oneness, monotheism, and the truthfulness of our Prophet, Muhammad, and they used to ridicule them. So it it's It he again and this happens, Richard, is this is a recurring pattern not only around the the the the tragic nine eleven episode and and can give you other examples of it, but but this is a recurring pattern when there's all kinds of so called interfaith interactions. It is is that is that verses that particularly relatively learned Muslims know and and and have a frame of reference for are spoken openly to non-Muslims. you could say it's a form of taqiyya, deception, but but th they they know that that the likelihood that someone in in the non-Muslim audience is going to have any inkling of of how Muslims are taught authoritatively to understand these verses is is is nil or almost nil. Richard Landes: So wait a minute. Right, so wait a minute, Andy Bostom: Wouldn't Richard Landes: are you saying that President Bush is speaking he's giving a speech, he's quoting the Quran, and the Quran actually says that God's wrath will fall upon the infidel, and he is presenting this to his infidel audience as proof that Islam is a religion of peace. Andy Bostom: Yes, because the the context that he doesn't understand is is that you know, unfortunately Richard Landes: So who wrote it? Who who gave him that phrase? Where did he get that Andy Bostom: Yeah, I Richard Landes: phrase? Andy Bostom: I I I don't know who actually advised him. You know, it could have been if if you want to take the worst case scenario, it it it it could have been some of these Muslims, and you know, you you wanted to talk about this, who to who he had on stage, someone like a Nihad Awad might have been a reasonable candidate to suspect something like this. Muzamil Sadiqi, who who several days earlier had spoken at the at the national memorial service that that that that was in place after nine eleven. or it could have been it could have been a quote unquote so called expert but not really so expert non Muslim advisor. Richard Landes: Yeah, no, I mean it sounds to me like it would be a Muslim who would put that in. I think Andy Bostom: Probably. Richard Landes: that, you know, even an apologist like John Esposito, I don't think, would have picked that passage to have Bush say. I mean th okay, let's not go that far. But Andy Bostom: You never know. No. Richard Landes: but yeah, no, but this is really this is like treating Bush as a fool. Andy Bostom: Y yes, at one level it is yes. Richard Landes: Yeah, the President of the United States, whose country has just been attacked in a horrendous attack, unprecedented, Andy Bostom: Yes. Richard Landes: and he comes to the center in DC, the Islamic Center, and delivers a speech that's been handed to him by a Muslim Brotherhood operative. Niha Dawad is a perfect candidate. He's standing right next to him. Certainly represents his kind of thinking. So so this is really, you know, I mean, let's put ourselves in the shoes of or the let's see this through the eyes of Muslims who know what's going on. This is this is another magnificent victory over the infidel. You know, Andy Bostom: Absolutely, it's a victory, Richard. Absolutely. Richard Landes: it's like following up the jihad with the Dawah. Andy Bostom: Well, I I'll I'll give you a more a more garden variety of this. And this this literally happens all the time when you invite a Muslim even to do something as as generic as as open up you know a session of a state legislature or a Congress, etcetera. because it's routine for them. It's not it's not in t entirely entirely dark or sinister. it's just so routine for them. But on the other hand, they could truncate the the fatiha for example the the with the opening surah of the Quran seven very short verses for them to invoke the first six verses is totally appropriate because it's just a celebration of of of the the beneficence the mercy of of Allah etc etc that's perfectly the seventh verse however refers to those who've incurred allah's anger and those who've gone astray and for Richard Landes: And that's what this verse is about. Andy Bostom: Well, exactly, because Muhammad in a canonical hadith, and then and then all the great exegetes picked it up, or at least I've I've once done a an actual survey, ninety percent have. Muhammad says that those who've incurred Allah's anger are the Jews, and those who've gone astray are the Christians. And again, if you go through the top sea literature, it's it's a good ninety percent across space and time, Sunni Shiite, etc. you know, so-called fundamentalist tofsier, non-fundamentalist tofsier. there are some outliers. Even the outliers aren't are not necessarily informative. Because for example, Saeed Kutta in his magnificent Quranic commentary, just sort of leaves it open as to who those those those references are. So so even the more benign interpretation of the verse doesn't necessarily you know correlate with with with you know lack of fundamentalist beliefs, etc. But but but the point is Richard, the overwhelming consensus across space and time has been that this is a negative reference to the Jews in particular, but also a pejorative reference to the Christians. And this is this the Fatiya is recited routinely at interfaith gatherings. Moreover, it's a it's it's something that Muslims themselves repeat seventeen times a day. Richard Landes: Okay, so we're looking, I mean, there's a connection here, it seems to me, between Bush's speech, which you saw recently he doubled down on. Right. Andy Bostom: Yes, yes, Richard Landes: So so twenty-six years later, twenty-five years later, he has no clue that he was taken for a fool. Andy Bostom: And and more broadly, he still at least you have to take him at face value, he still considers Islam to be a religion of peace. He's very adamant about it. Richard Landes: Right, so right. And so one of the things that he said in that conversation with Condoleezza Rice, which we'll also have up at the website, one of the things he said in that conversation was that his top priority was to get Americans to return to normal right away. And that would be a way of depriving jihad of its sting, I guess. But this idea of returning to normal of sort of, you know, saying Everything's okay, you know. Pretend nothing ha i i i isn't isn't trying to bring things back to normal a way of sort of saying pretend nothing happened? Andy Bostom: It's that it's it's it's a little bit worse, Richard. And I and I'm glad that, you know, in in in anticipation of this conversation, I went back and looked at at more of the atmospherics around Bush's speech and those and those critical days. They Richard Landes: good. All right. Andy Bostom: they they were obsessed already. We see this now, obviously, twenty-five years. They were obsessed with with backlash against Muslims. They were absolutely obsessed. that Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right. Andy Bostom: was part of the reason they held this event. openly was to what to suppress Richard Landes: Yes, yes. Andy Bostom: backlash. But but it i in retrospect, again, we've gotten so used to this, but I didn't realize what a powerful motif that was immediately i in the aftermath of nine eleven. and and and that was an overriding concern of his. And I take him at face value for that for sure. Richard Landes: Right, right. And Condoleezza Rice as well. I actually was at a talk she gave, and she was asked, you know, give an example of when history helped make a decision. And she said, Well, you know, after nine eleven, we looked at what the w Americans did to the Japanese in World War Two and decided we wouldn't do that to the Muslims. So, you know, and I and I wrote her about it, but obviously it never never made much of an impression. But so Look, we're looking at this situation, there's there is understandably a great desire not to have innocent people attacked. But it actually turns out to be a massive boon to the very people who did it, in the sense that even if you're a supporter of jihad, as long as you're not out there waving the black flag, you're considered a moderate. And so you're allowed in to the United States, you're allowed to preach, you're allowed to to become an identity entrepreneur, as Stuart Green puts in in his thesis on cognitive warfare. You're allowed you're given free run. Andy Bostom: It's it's also it's all there's a triumphal ac aspect to this too, Richard. This Richard Landes: Yeah. Andy Bostom: whole process of of of adopting an apologetic towards Islam, even in the face of this horrific attack, is is Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Andy Bostom: seen as validating the attack itself and and is a is by the Muslims and is and is a great Richard Landes: By the Muslims. The Muslims hear it. Absolutely. Andy Bostom: is a great dawah tool, too missionary tool. Richard Landes: Right. So we just had a a session with Danny Burmawi. And one of the things he said is it's not that Islam is strong, it's that the West is weak. It literally invites the aggression. And certainly this performance by Bush, it seems to me, did invite the aggression. But then the problem is, I mean, the real problem here is all those scholars who didn't do their work that meant that you had to do their work for them. And I don't know how your practice has gone since two thousand, but you've Yeah. I mean the the amount of work you've done is staggering. Andy Bostom: Well we're tired now. No, that that period, Richard, was was very difficult. It was very difficult. I was not sleeping Richard Landes: Yeah. Andy Bostom: much at all. Richard Landes: Right. And so w you've got this situation where where to this day Islamophobia and the fear of provoking it means has been implemented in such a way that we literally can't know who is attacking us. Andy Bostom: Right. And and at the same time, there's a there's there is again there is this unique duality to Islamophobia. And Islamophobia as we've come to know it as you know another civil rights issue, etc. it's it's actually a a sacralized Islamic doctrine, which is, you know, Muhammad says, I have been made victorious through terror. The the the Quran repeats in at least three verses That one of the paths to victory is to strike terror in the heart of the infidel. in the eighth surah it's repeated twice, in the fourth surah. and and the body of jurisprudence that that evolved from the traditions, from certainly from the Quran, takes great pride in how the lightning campaigns of early Islam and and later Islam too were facilitated. by striking terror into the heart of the infidel as a form of conquest. Ibn Khaldun, you know, the great jurist and and even considered to be a sort of a socialist, the first sociologist No the s sociologist. Richard Landes: His social historian. Yeah. No, no, not socialist. No, not socialist. Social historian. The first yes, the first sociological historian. Yes. Andy Bostom: Y yes. Yeah, so so he he he describes how and you know he puts obviously puts s s sort of a positive spin on it and and this not it's not irrational. He says that that the it was certainly sparing of the lives of the Muslim jihadists, which is his first and foremost concern, if if the if the infidel would just subdue, would just submit, excuse me, without without fighting. But but even even the even the infidels themselves could benefit potentially from not being slaughtered if they would just subdue. after being terrorized. So so it be it it it's woven into the jurisprudence of jihad. And Richard Landes: It's a mercy. Right. Andy Bostom: and even in in in 1979, the the Islamic State of of Pakistan in a in one of their war manuals repeated all this theology about about how it's a very important tactic for for the Muslim armies, again, to sp particularly to spare them casualties, to terrorize the enemy and get them to submit. So so here you have Richard Landes: And so Andy Bostom: that the the the Muslim understanding of Islamophobia and and we're worried about these grave civil rights violations. Richard Landes: Right, so in a sense, well, but wait a minute, so there All right. so wait a minute, and now so their use of Islamophobia is precisely to not allow us to be aware of what their warfare techniques are. Because Andy Bostom: Exactly. Exactly. Richard Landes: if we knew we wouldn't like Islam. And we might not like Muslims. Andy Bostom: Well, but there's another aspect. The way it's developed, Rich it it the the way Islamophobia is now utilized, it in and of itself, it this is very much like what what the what the communists used to do. In other words, the charge of Islamophobia is something that act itself that actually terrorizes people now and and causes them to be silent. It i it's it's Richard Landes: Okay. Andy Bostom: It it's really quite fascinating when you think about it. Richard Landes: It is. So that that I want to ask you the same question I asked Danny Burmoe and and Brian of London earlier today, which is why is Islamophob the threat of the accusation of Islamophobia so powerful i because we're the ones who give it the power. Why do we why why do Westerners give such power? To a bad faith accusation from some pretty malevolent actors. Andy Bostom: Yeah, I I I mean I think this this has to do more this this this obviously has more to do with us and and the and the the cultural relativism that's kind of rotting our our culture, et cetera. Any form of bigotry, Richard, is is i if if you accuse someone of any form of big bigotry, that's the worst accusation you you can level at some point. Richard Landes: I understand I I understand completely and I understand the sentiment and stuff, but isn't there a limit to how stupid you can be? Andy Bostom: Apparently not. I I I I mean I no, I I I don't Richard Landes: You know. Andy Bostom: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be glib, but but no, it it's Richard Landes: No no. Andy Bostom: it it's a it's a it's a very it it it's really become you know a a a terrible a terrible affliction of our of our culture that that that we we again this this is th this is like this is the worst charge you can level at someone is is to call them some form of bigot, whether it's about sexual identity or religion, etcetera. Richard Landes: Yeah, but yes and no, yes and no, because you can call somebody an anti Semite and it might slow him a pace, but it's not gonna destroy his career. It's not gonna be you know, it's not gonna end him his his public career. P people like Linda Sarseur are doing just fine. Andy Bostom: It it dep well that's it depends if you if you're if you're a white male anti Semite, it might end your career. if Richard Landes: Mike. Andy Bostom: if i i if i it it that so it's also relative. I think the other aspect, R Richard, goes back to the fear. so criticism Richard Landes: Okay. Andy Bostom: of Islam, you know, c can come with a real penalty. H harsh criticism of of Islam, for example, lampooning Islam vis-a-vis cartoons, etcetera, can literally be a Richard Landes: Right. Right. Well it starts Andy Bostom: death sentence. Richard Landes: right, and it starts with Salmon Rushdie in nineteen eighty nine. Andy Bostom: powerful? Richard Landes: Right, right, right. So y this is like some kind of mind forged manacle. It's like w i i i it's a prison that we've put ourselves in. Now you say there's fear, and I I think that that goes a long way. In other words, you know, after nine eleven Osama bin Laden said we're the strong horse. And even people who had been following apocalyptic Islam like me before two thousand and one And knew about Osama bin Laden didn't take that seriously, but I you know, looking back, I'd say yes, from that moment on they were the strong horse. Andy Bostom: Well, I I I I think I think we we abetted them. and and part of it is is the is the behavior that you see pr President Bush engaged in. and and and and whitewashing i Richard Landes: And Andy Bostom: Islam and and being overly concerned about backlash. Look, you know, we have data on on Islamophobia and on on attacks on Muslims, et cetera. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Andy Bostom: So for example, the last time I looked at it was in relation to a completely fabricated i incident. at at a mosque here in rhode island, which I you know investigated for 18 months. But I had to look at the FBI statistics. And Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: from mid-so a five year period, mid-August twenty twenty one to mid-August of this year, twenty twenty six, less than two percent of of of hate crimes in the United States were against Muslims. it it's it's a it's an epi phenomenon in terms of the overall you know incidence of hate crimes. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Andy Bostom: and and and Richard Landes: And and Andy Bostom: and they literally have to gin them up sometimes to to to Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: get attention. Richard Landes: Right. And the and the opposite, which is that the hate crimes against Jews in the United States, what's the percentage of those that are Muslim done? Andy Bostom: It it's it's usually seven to tenfold what the what the what the crimes are, hate crimes against Muslims. And that's before correcting for, you know, factitious ones. Richard Landes: Yeah, no, I'm talking about what percentage of anti Jewish attacks are Muslim in are Muslim in origin? Andy Bostom: well you see, that's very interesting, Richard, because the FBI doesn't keep those statistics in the United States. the the the few times it's been investigated in in in in Western Europe, you know, through the EU grudgingly and and and more than a decade ago now, it it it ranged at least two to fourfold. that that that that Muslims were overrepresented versus any other group, left, right, Christian, two Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: to fourfold more than than any other group in in Western Europe. Richard Landes: Right, and certain certainly in your lecture you go over the statistics of anti Semitic attitudes, which are Andy Bostom: Okay. Richard Landes: much higher in the Muslim population now. Andy Bostom: I mean it's it's it's it you know we came through we came through the the the COVID pandemic. The Muslim anti-Semitism phenomenon is is at pandemic levels, Richard. I mean the ADL's own data show that Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: the 19 most anti-Semitic countries in the world are all, you know, either Muslim exclusive basically or Muslim predominant countries, and the prevalence of extreme anti-Semitism. So what the ADL does, it's a very good simple scale, is that they confront the respondent. With 11 anti-Semitic tropes or stereotypes. And if you agree with the majority of them, so at least six out of eleven, you become an index case of extreme anti-Semitism. Well, the prevalence of prevalence of that degree of anti-Semitism, again, extreme anti-Semitism, is anywhere Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: from 64 to 97% in the n world's most anti-Semitic countries, which are all Muslim societies. And even a place like Indonesia, which for you know some generations had been considered to be, well, it's a non-Arab, more syncr Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: syncretic is Islam, etc. etc., 96% now in in the latest ADL survey that was completed at the end of 2024, 96% of Indonesian Muslims harbor extreme anti-Semitism. And and this sort Richard Landes: Okay, so Andy Bostom: of travels with with the diaspora populations, who in Western Europe each Richard Landes: Right. Exactly. So so that's what I wanted to ask you. Right. Andy Bostom: are two to fourfold more anti Semitic. Richard Landes: So so now after October seventh, twenty twenty three, when we see a metastasis of these attitudes to the whole population, isn't this a kind of Islamicization of the West that they've they've imported their hatred of Jews and sold it to Westerners? Andy Bostom: It the it's it's i the I the the importation is clear because although although thank God at least you know as the last real data we had from the ADL were in twenty seventeen and they suppressed them by the way. I I was actually only able to get them through a colleague who who obtained the data directly from ADL. They were never formally published. He published them and and he's the head of Judaic Studies, at least the acting head of Judaic Studies at Indiana University, Gunther Chiquelli. And what Gunther published and found from the ADL itself, Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: this was a great survey, Richard, in 2017. They they they did an oversample of 800 US Muslims and then a random sample of the US population non-Muslim of 3,600. And the the the rate of of extreme anti-Semitism amongst the Muslims was 38%. Now much better than other parts of the world. but Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: It was only six percent at that point amongst US non Muslims. I can only imagine what it is almost ten years later now. Richard Landes: Right, right. I mean, if anything, the infidels are catching up. Andy Bostom: I I well but I'm just saying I I I think the the the the Muslim thirty eight percent may be approaching European levels, which are more like fifty percent, sometimes sixty percent. Richard Landes: I see and and and the infidel the inf is approaching thirty eight percent. Right. Andy Bostom: And the infidels yes, the infidels appear to be catching up too. Yeah, although it's it's probably still quite disproportionate. Richard Landes: All right, so now this I think brings us to two questions I'd like to discuss with you. One is the sort of baked-in resistance to discussing what we're calling supremacist Islam. That is a religion that believes that it is so superior to all other religions on the planet that it is justified in invading and coercing people. To either convert or die or submit to their religion. And the reluctance to discuss this aspect of Islam, which scholars who look into it tend to agree is a pretty fundamental feature of most centuries of Islamic existence. Has been systematically taken off the table. And I'm thinking here of something that happened just before 9-11, which was Sam Huntington's Clash of Civilizations, in which he talked about Islam's bloody borders and how vastly more conflicts. You go over it in your lecture. We don't have to go over it here. But but The the striking thing is that after nine eleven you would have expected that the number one book on everybody's bookshelf should have been Sam Huntington Clash of Civilizations, and instead it was Edward Saeed wagging his finger at Sam Huntington and calling him a racist and an Islamophob. Andy Bostom: I I I think it's actually helpful though to at least summarize what what Huntington said. And again, this is pre this is pre nine eleven. he's he's talking about the period really from from from he he actually goes back to the to the late I think it was the late nineteen twenties where where he he describes the the the the the disproportionate res r resort resorting to violence that that that characterizes Muslim societies, particularly you know these these border conflicts, which where where he talks about the boundary looping across Eurasia and Africa that separates Muslims from non-Muslims. he talked about the 1990s in particular, That there were three times as many intercivilizational conflicts involving Muslims as there were between non-Muslim civilizations. But he went through a period, he he reviewed a period from 1928 to 1979. And one thing that he said, you know, he borrowed. the Clash of Civilizations as a term from Bernard Lewis. But but but he put real flesh on on those bones. And and his conclusion is something that also people I I I can remember, Richard, this is a fantastic, it's just coming back to me now. When when Char the late Charles Crowdhammer was characterizing what Huntington said some some years later, I think it must have been around 2010, he specifically said That Huntington was talking about quote unquote Islamism. Okay, so I I that I had read Huntington and and that just struck me as being a a a distortion, but I wanted to go back and make sure it what Huntington said verbatim. And so, contra the late Charles Crowdhammer, this is what Huntington said. He said, quote, the underlying problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism, it is Islam. A different civilization whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture. And and and so here you have even a well known conservative, you know, intellectual talking head just completely misrepresenting what Huntington actually said. Richard Landes: Right. So that gets into a particularly thorny discussion of is supremacist Islam a tautology? And there are those who say it. We we want to argue that whereas certainly there is a very profound and very prolonged tradition of supremacism, That it is possible that there are we call them neighborly Muslims. That is, Muslims who are who are ready to live next door to you without being insulted that you don't convert to their religion, or without being mortally offended and shamed and and enraged that you criticize them or their religion. but but in fact what we've been doing is And and this is the fate of Sam Huntington's argument, we've been pushing all that away for fear of alienating Muslims, and we end up literally enabling the their invasion of our society. Andy Bostom: Yes, I think that's that's that's a real phenomenon. But but where but but I well what I would no but what I would say Richard Landes: You're supposed to argue against me. Andy Bostom: what I would say is that and this is the distinction that that even even you know in in Ibn Warwick's very p polemic, as brilliant as it was, it was still a polemic, you know, why I'm not a Muslim. he always made the distinction and I think it's very legitimate. the intellectual distinction between between Muslims and Islam or s or or what I I would say institutional Islam. You know, so so when I study Al Azhar University, for example, and I studied it very specifically vis-a-vis the really abhorrent Jew hatred that that has frankly has characterized that institution for at least you know for at least the last looks looks to be at least the last 70, 80 years, certainly since the creation of Israel. Is is that is Islam has an institutional problem. Obviously Muslims are are individuals, but Islam has an institutional problem which I think colors some of these polling data that you see, Richard, or or some of the other phenomena that we see. For example, in the lecture, you know, I I showed tables that reveal how it's not just the anti the the you know the the the the grossly overrepresent re represented anti-Semitism and or or as ADL would call it extreme anti-Semitism. It's the physical, violent persecution of Christians across the world that that is intimately related to at least blasphemy law being on the books, if not where there's formal data available, the desire for those populations that are persecuting Christians to to exist in a in a str strict Sharia society. so and and that that ultimately comes from the institutions. it it's absorbed by too many of the people, but it's the institutions that I would hold culpable. It's the institutions that are never criticized. I mean, in the lecture I also showed you in the in the aftermath of of 9-11, despite all the duplicity of Al Azar University and the fact that Tantawi himself had issued fatwas calling for attacks on American troops in Iraq, the Bush's undersecretary and his liaison to the Muslim world was was And was singing the the praises of of his alleged moderation. And the State Department was putting out pictures of them together. and and Yewes even said, she said, I praise Sheikh Tantawi for his courage. And he said, It is not courage, but I did the right thing to speak out against terrorism and extremism. Well, what he was referring to. was his very transient and half-hearted condemnation of of the nine eleven attacks themselves. But Richard also remember Alizar, much like the Vatican, has its own emissaries, that the that that that that the Vatican calls them nuncios. The the the Alizar has its own emissaries. Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: And if we go back to that period, I mean this is something that at the time both Terrified me and ultimately got me quite interested in in studying these phenomena. It turned out that at the time of the attacks, just by coincidence, Al Azhar's emissary to the United States was also the guest imam at the Islamic Center of Maha Manhattan. So he was literally in in Manhattan at the time of the attacks. And appropriately, and I think this included an appearance at Yankee Stadium. I don't I re I it might have been the same one where Bush threw out the opening pitch. he was featured prominently and he spoke appropriately about you know he was known for his moderate views and he was call calling in English for peace, healing, and and love among people of all religions. Well, very shortly thereafter, by the first week in October. he left hurriedly without any substantiation that you know he claimed he was being harassed, and he went back to to Egypt and gave an absolutely horrific interview to an Alazar affiliated website. and he was invoking these it was rife with Jew hatred, it was very anti-American, and basically he was accusing the Americans of just being the dupes of the Zionist Jews. and and condemning President Bush despite Bush's apologetics vis a vislam, you know Richard Landes: The fact that Bush was a dupe of them. Andy Bostom: He was a dupe of the Jews and he was also a crusader against Muslims. and and that Muslims were being s harshly persecuted in the United States by the government, fomented by the Zionist media. and and Richard Landes: Well. Andy Bostom: he and he actually said, I advise every Arab and every Muslim leader not to offer any aid whatsoever to the oppressing superpower, i.e. the Americans, because they attack Muslims. This is a betrayal of Allah and his Prophet. and an American attack on Afghanistan will constitute terrorism as the US did in Iraq and in Palestine. And my first introduction to contents that I later learned were all from the Quran came from this man's interview. And he went through basically a litany of all the Quranic accusations against the Jews and justified Hitler's annihilation of the of the Jews, claimed that the Jews were behind nine eleven. and and then said if if it became known to the American people, they would have done to the Jews what Hitler did. And of course, what really struck home at the time, since I was not only i involved in medical research, I was I was a clinician then too. He said he said Muslims did not feel safe even going to the hospitals because some Jewish doctors in one of the hospitals poisoned sick Muslim children who then died. So so coming full circle, Richard, this was Al-Azhar's representative. In the United States at the time of nine eleven Richard Landes: All right, not only that, but he was welcomed and treated as a moderate and a peace lover. you mentioned in your lecture Tom Friedman and somebody else. Andy Bostom: this was later with Sistani. We're you're talking about Sistani. This is this is not Gemeya. This is not Gemeya. Yes. Right, right. Yeah. So everyone remembers when when all the Richard Landes: Right, with Sistani, but right. No no no no. But same phenomenon. Andy Bostom: all of the turmoil was going on and and and and the and the and the terrible carnage and and and ternocene struggle that was going on in Iraq, because it it then it began to fester with the with the traditional rivalries between Sunni and Shiite within Israq within Iraq. let alone what happened to the poor Christian populations there on our watch. but but yes Ayatollah Sistani was held up as a as a unifying a unifying moderate force. And you know Richard at the time there was one American, you know we had we had basically like our viceroy there, Paul Bremer. And there was John Agresto was under Bremer and he was supposed to do something about restarting the Iraq education system. And so he got to know Sistani. And he wrote very candidly in his memoir what what an awful anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian bigot Sistani was, and that basically he was still, you know, a a a Twelver Shiite with with intimate connections to Iran, and that the whole thing was was a farce. so so Agresto said that in real time, and of course he was pilloried and attacked for saying this. but but years later. It turns out he you you can see when i in the in in the American joint American Israeli a attacks on Iraq, a ayat Ayatollah Sistani emerged from his alleged quietism to to issue a a fatwa calling for a global jihad a against against the Americans and the Israelis. you know. So the mask Richard Landes: So did d at that point Andy Bostom: dropped. The mass dropped. Richard Landes: Right. So at that point did Tom Friedman take back his p his Nobel Prize nomination? Andy Bostom: I could not I searched in vain for any comment from him, but in his defense, it wasn't only him. in in on February eighth in the National Review, you know, obviously not the New York Times, a conservative outlet, Rich Lowry wrote, In a better world, Sistani would have a Nobel Peace Prize. So, you know, this this went across the political spectrum. Yes, Richard Landes: A a better Sistani would have a peace prize. Andy Bostom: yes. Richard Landes: Right. So all right, so let's see if we can r wrap our minds around this. today we're celebrating the 25th anniversary of Bush's speech. Bush's speech was I think you and I both agree, a disastrous. It was literally the act of a Vimi. infidel, one who's subject to Islam. They gave him the speech, they told him to read it. It was literally, I call it the the jihadi narrative for infidel consumption. Islam is a religion of peace. the extremists who do that are hijacking Islam. They have nothing to do with true Islam. The vast majority of Muslims are just like us and horrified by this and And and with with Nihadawad sitting standing next to him, he's saying the fine people around me feel the same way that you do. So he he literally misinformed his people, the infidels of the world. Andy Bostom: And insulted the American people too, Richard. I think that's important. Insulted the American people, basically implying that they're a bunch of xenophobes and they better not go out and start attacking Muslims. He really did that too. Richard Landes: And therefore we will tell fantasies just to keep them quiet. Andy Bostom: Yeah, but even the assumption that I mean, it never materialized. There were never mass attacks on Muslims after nine eleven. It never happened. The United States has a decent population. It certainly did then. Richard Landes: Right, right, right. So okay, so let me ask you this question. If you were Bush and you went to the mosque, what would you have said? Andy Bostom: Honestly, Richard, if I knowing what I knew then, I I I probably okay, Richard Landes: Knowing knowing what you know now. Andy Bostom: knowing what I knew then, it w it would have been maybe just as disastrous as what he said, to be honest about it. Knowing Richard Landes: Well more. Andy Bostom: what knowing what I know now, it it would have been distant and cool and and and just saying that You know, there's there's I would have been frank about a significant problem in Islam. There is a significant problem in Islam. There is this jihad doctrine. It's an ancient come modern doctrine. there needs to be massive reform of the teaching institutions that foment this. It is it is unfortunately not just a purview of of some radicalized jihadi groups. It's it's being preached at Al Azhar. it need that needs to stop. it's being preached in mosques Richard Landes: And it's being preached in American mosques. Andy Bostom: in across the United States and Europe. Obviously that needs to stop. and that we call upon Muslims who are independent thinkers and want to integrate you know comfortably into into Western societies. to to to denounce this this ideology, even if it cuts to the bone in terms of it it being sanctioned by their institutions. They're gonna have to go against the Richard Landes: And Andy Bostom: grain. Richard Landes: right, and their solidarity. So in other words, to go there and say, I've been given a speech in which I'm supposed to say Islam is a religion of peace. It is my sense that if it is a religion of peace, then it's up to Muslims to prove it rather than for us to mouth it without any evidence to the contrary. Andy Bostom: Well, it's also important for Muslims to acknowledge the the the the the historical doctrine of of jihad and and how it's still being taught. And and while there may be Muslims that that would love to do that, now's the time for them to step forth. Richard Landes: Right. Yeah, because because one of the things that really blew my mind was I understood the diplomatic argument behind Bush's saying Islam is a religion of peace, but you know I studied I studied, you know, graduate school history, including of the Middle East before Saeed's book came out, before Orientalism. And, you know, I expected the scholars to say Well, okay, for diplomatic reasons you said Islam is a religion of peace, but historically speaking, there really is no religion with a longer and more consistent record of hostility to outsiders than Islam. And they didn't. In fact, it was you know right. The bloody borders of bloody Andy Bostom: Right. And and the and the map shows that. You know, the the historical maps show that. Richard Landes: borders. So how do we how do we deal with this this paralytic Accusation of Islamophobia Andy Bostom: One of the things that I did recently, but it's it's you know it's a microcosm, is I I showed in my own state how it's used to warp discussion. So for example, you know this was this was in the aftermath of October seventh, Richard. Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Andy Bostom: And and so we know we now know, I think we kind of knew at the time, that care, for example, was Trying whatever it could to gin up cases of Islamophobia to sort of to shut down this this this tr as it turns out, Richards, you and I know as Jews, this very transient period where we actually got some sympathy after the carnage of October 7th. It might have lasted a week. Some would say about an hour, but but it it it it was a transient thing. and Richard Landes: Seven hours to seven days. Andy Bostom: Yeah, right, right, right. yeah. Seven days in October, you know, instead of seven days in May. So so so but it was a concerted effort to to gin up cases of of Islamophobia. And and lo and behold, because I had been chastised, you know, I gave a lecture at the end of of of 2024 in in the Barrington Public Library here in Rhode Island about the subject of Muslim anti-Semitism largely. And I gave ex examples from many mosques, including across the United States. And someone came up to me and and really embarrassed me and said, Well, have you ever listened to any mosques here in Rhode Island? And I had to very sheepishly say, No, I hadn't. So less two weeks after that was that horri horrible attack on New Year's Day in New Orleans, January twenty twenty five. This the Hicular Jihad attack, which which killed fifteen and wounded thirty, clear cut, you know ISIS flag. Richard Landes: Cream in Allah Akbar. Andy Bostom: ISIS flag Koran in his room open to Quran 911, which talks about Muslims killing and to be killed and going to paradise, basically a jihad martyrdom verse. And I was curious, it was a Wednesday, what was the Friday kutbas in my state? And finally, a Facebook page for for a large mosque in in Providence had live streamed its kutbas. And I listened and I was absolutely shocked. Even in English, the Imam was talking about not no condolence whatsoever for for the victims of the New Orleans jihadist attack. But he was talking about, and it starts to get me concerned, about the need for the solidarity of the global Muslim And beyond that, he invoked Quran forty-eight twenty-nine, where Muhammad says to Muslims that they should be basically kind to each other and harsh to the disbelievers. And I'm like, Wait a minute, this is two days after New Orleans. This is so inappropriate. But it got worse. Now my Arabic is very, very limited. But I did pick up a couple of words and went immediately to my translators that I've worked with for so many years because I taped the whole thing. And he was he was calling, literally calling to fight the the the the the polytheists and the disbelievers in the in the Arabic supplication two days after this attack in New Orleans. Well, that prompted me to go through the whole itinerary of of sermons post-October 7th. Because remember, this was early January of 2025. And Richard Landes: Wow. Yeah. Andy Bostom: I found they were rife with with with Jew hatred, all Quranically justified, justified by the Hadith. There was a sermon three days before Christmas in in in December of 2023. So also in that period, you know, in the sh shortly in that period after in the aftermath of October 7th, where he literally Now look, it's a theme in in end-of-times theology. You're probably familiar with it, that that that the Muslim Jesus, Isa, will come back and break the cross, kill the pig, and end the payment of the jizya, meaning he'll be obviously a full-throated Muslim and he'll help destroy Christianity. And I'm thinking to myself, for heaven's sake, I know it exists in the eschatology. Must you remind Muslims of this three days before Christmas? Isn't that a bit gratuitous? You know, so so that one that one was in there. And in the background, Richard, was this crime, quote unquote, that had occurred on November seventeenth of twenty twenty three, where it was basically looked to be a drive-by shooting where a a Muslim who sells Islamic paraphernalia and books outside the mosque each Friday before before the before the kutpah he was he was shot. Now, it turns out it was a superficial flesh wound in the in the in the rear end. He was he admitted at a local podcast, he was in and out of ER in about two hours. And as the whole story I was able to develop, I began I called it the shot in the Tulchis heard round the world. Because this was this was a man who who this story was on CNN, it was all the local media, of course, yeah, and the Boston Globe. CNN, but even the UK Guardian and the Daily Mail covered this story, and they took the narrative, which literally came from from Ibrahim Hooper and Kerr. That this this must have been an Islamophobic shooting. Well, when when the h when all this died down, I noticed that a a week after the attack, there was no more reports. Again, I'm looking at this retrospectively, you know, from January of 2025. So through the course of January, I actually got the police report, which no local reporter ever did. And what I found in that police report was that the lone suspect, and it's remained that way to this day, the lone suspect. was a was a Muslim. And and and he had and and once I had his name, with the help of a lawyer in the state, we went through all the legal records and court proceedings. He was a recidivist criminal. And by the way, the man who was shot in the Tuchis, he he had had somehow gotten a only a five-year sentence for what was a 20-year conviction for drugs. That so that it w the the theory was and then the joint terrorism task force came out to my house when I started repr reporting on these on these kutbas. And and I was very concerned that they were going to accuse me of Islamophobia. It turns Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: out it was a mensch, an Iraq war veteran who had some Arabic fluency. And what he was out at my house for, and I was out walking the dogs or something when he came by, he left me a a note on yellow legal paper. he he was out here to warn me that this mosque was a hotbed of prison converts, and I should just be careful that that he was happy for what I was reporting. because they actually had Richard Landes: Wow. Andy Bostom: it, they they actually at some points I think had had informants there, and they had never reported this type of information that I was just getting from Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: just watching the sermons. And so it turned out it took about 18 months and real clear investigations over the summer, took my long detailed report. It turned it turns out that the Providence Police Department finally acknowledged this summer that while because of so much evidence that was destroyed. And the fact that the only suspect is it it's tragic, Richard. He's twenty early twenties, is a recidivist criminal. they they know he did it, but but he destroyed he destroyed he the car is missing that he used. he destroyed not only his cell phone but the the the but the cloud. and and by the time they got him, he was being picked up for other charges, gun charges, larceny, et cetera. So he's he's a recidivist criminal, and and obviously he's protected by the Fifth Amendment. And so they they they'll never make the f the the the case on him, but what they what they were willing to go on the record with is this is absolutely not an Islamophobic hate crime. But it took Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: over 18 months, and the local papers never responded to me, never resp never had any form of maya culpa. And in fact, the Rhode Island state legislature in early 2024, with of course a Jewish representative signing on to it, issued a A condemnation or house resolution condemning Islamophobia and citing Richard Landes: Of Islamophobia. Yeah. Andy Bostom: this incident as being the cardinal incident to justify the resolution. And none of the people who signed on to that, the the the the the author of of the resolution, the co-sponsor who was Jewish, who just got angry at me and told me how stupid I was, you know, none of them had any form of maya culpa. now they couldn't rescind the resolution, but any time, including now. They could get up on the house floor and say, We made a mistake, you know. and and so it was a textbook case right here in my own state that I never would have even thought about, you know, other than being embarrassed by someone at a lecture saying, Hey, listen, buddy, why don't you listen to one of the mask sermons here in Rhode Island? Stop telling us about what's going on in other parts of the country. You know, use use your use your ears and your Richard Landes: Right, right, right, right. Right. Coming coming to a mosque near you. Andy Bostom: skills and and and listen to what's going on here. By the way, the the moral the the the the final ver story is that The mosques' reaction, of course, you know, real clear investigations on my behalf, contacted them. No no comment. But what that what they have done, and this was a little while ago, they've they not only no longer broadcast their Kutpas live on their Facebook page, they took down all their sermons. They took down their entire archive. That that was their response. yes. Although certainly the ones that I documented, I I I saved them. I saved them. Yeah. Yeah. Richard Landes: Had you had you saved them? All right. All right. Wow. Wow. Wow. Andy Bostom: But it it's really it's really it it it's really a a a a a tale of of our predicament right now. Richard Landes: All right. So then the question is what is the most practical st step we can take to I mean, other than Infidel Awareness Month, to get people Andy Bostom: By the way, that's it's really important what you're doing, Richard. I I mean it i it i it is important because I I I mean it it sometimes I think to myself, it's twenty five years later and and and we're just at the beginning. We're still losing. Richard Landes: Right. And we're still losing. Right, right, right, right, right. And and losing hand over fist, and losing in the battle we should be winning, which is the battle of an open society of dispute Andy Bostom: Yeah. Richard Landes: in which you can criticize each other. So I Andy Bostom: Right, right. Richard Landes: I I I guess, you know, th the the only way I can think of of framing the issue is, you know. Where's the trade-off between making Muslims feel uncomfortable by criticizing, as you say, Islamic institutions and Islamic supremacism? On the one hand, where's the trade-off between making them uncomfortable and protecting ourselves from the very thing that they don't want to talk about? Andy Bostom: I I you know, it seems it seems so rudimentary and and maybe even s I don't know, somewhat childlike. but what what I have found is that think about think about all the raw material that Middle East Media Research Institute has collected over the years. you know, not not just from the Middle East, but particularly outside the Middle East. In in Europe, Richard Landes: Memory, right. Andy Bostom: yes, the Middle East Media Research Institute. Just just the s the the the the the the the speeches, the the Friday Kutbas, that they have collected so many of them that that are full of of material that's that's hateful, that's rooted in in in in very concrete religious ideas that can be identified, certainly by people you know like myself that that have studied them. and and memory as a policy does not get involved with with advocacy. in other words, they they see themselves to keep their institution Richard Landes: And make it available. Andy Bostom: pure, make it available, you know, and then it's basically up to whomever. you know, occasionally you all come on will cajole, you know, American mu American Jews in particular for not doing anything about it. But but but that's not their role. and then what I found out is even when they don't cover a mosque, you know, you can just go to the websites. I mean you you know, it's interesting, Richard. When I when I told Memory about what was going on and sent them examples of what They they said, look, this is bad. You said, but but honestly, Andy, we we're so overwhelmed now. It it we Richard Landes: It doesn't even Andy Bostom: we have to we we we don't even have the time to deal with it. So go ahead and you know report it, whatever. Richard Landes: All right. Andy Bostom: but but what I have found, Richard, is that with rare exceptions, you do see occasionally, you know, some Jewish advocacy organization pick up on a memory story. But I I I think there should be an a standing network. Where this you you could literally do this every week. You could issue press releases that that identify what the what the mosque was, what it said, you know what what its religious roots are, why it ha it has to stop. And and the weight of doing that every week instead of you know once every couple of years when something particularly egregious happens, you you would think, I and again, I may be naive, you would think that that might begin to move the needle a little bit just on the basis of repetition. Richard Landes: All right. All right, very good. So y you've just given me an idea for next year's Infidel Awareness Month, which is that every day we will have a dispatch from memory. Every day during that month. Andy Bostom: Well y yeah, and and and and and or or or if you know people that you are trusted sources, I mean there are other people out there. I mean I I stumbled across this, but there are other people that that, you know, Richard Landes: Yeah. Andy Bostom: understand that memory can't can't come close to covering it all and they and they they they they it's now the the the problem that I think is is what I've dealt with here in Rhode Island is that the simple solution from from the Muslim side is okay, well we won't broadcast You know. Richard Landes: Right. Right. I mean it's amazing that they did broadcast them, you know Andy Bostom: Yeah, and and apparently they didn't think much much of it. You know, Richard Landes: Yeah. Danny Danny Burmawi says, it's not that Islam is strong, it's that the West is weak. And which reminded me of the original title of my book, which eventually came out as Can the Whole World Be Wrong? But the original title was They're So Smart Cause We're So Stupid. Andy Bostom: Yeah yeah, yeah. Well and and and it's really it's really fearful and and I would say, you know, at a certain level cowardly that that that we're not dealing with this. I mean I I also think Richard Landes: Got a cheap. Andy Bostom: in in the in the Academy, Richard, I love that's why I close with that in the lecture, you Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: know, this was the frustration that that at the end of his career, Robert Conquest e expressed and he came up with this powerfully evocative term, which he called mind slaughter. that that that the that the the the the Western intellectuals and historians allegedly studying particularly Soviet totalitarianism and communism were had had literally destroyed their their reason reasoning faculties to to to to to to deal with with with with what was such obvious evil and and not be able to identify it. and I and I Richard Landes: So you're basically saying you're basically saying that their Dawah cog warriors, cognitive warriors, are waging jihad on our language. Andy Bostom: And yeah, and and we're letting it happen because it's not it's you know, listen, give I I would give the Soviets credit and still to this day, I think a lot of it was highly sophisticated and the influence Richard Landes: Yep. Andy Bostom: operations were highly sophisticated and they had a lot of intellectual firepower. I'm sorry, I I you know, there's a certain deviousness that you know, but it's not it's not that difficult to to unmask and debunk. I mean, we've we've gone through a couple of exercises today. Richard Landes: Yeah. You just have to have the will to do it. And we apparently Andy Bostom: And it's a longstanding and it's a longstanding problem, Richard. I just I've just coming to a close. I remember reading something, and he was a real mixed bag, but he was a good scholar of Islam, Maxime Rodanson. He was a vicious, you know, yeah, kami anti-Zionist. But yes, terrible. I know, I know, I know, but yeah, exactly, exactly. Richard Landes: yes. He precedes Said. Andy Bostom: The Jewish Saeed, you know, this but but he for somehow, again, with the you know, with all the way human beings can compartmentalize. He was actually quite honest about Islam. And and and even, you know, towards the end, he he renounced communism. He never he never renounced, as far as I know, he at least in pri in public, he never renounced his anti-Zionism. But but what he had noticed as far back as 1974 in his own field, again car compartmentalized, very narrow. Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Right. Right. Andy Bostom: And this had obviously been going on for probably you could say the decade before he wrote this he said that that the post-colonial left had had already been dominating Middle East and Islamic studies, and that some of them had had all had converted to Islam. And what he said that the overall effect was quote, understanding, again, nineteen seventy-four, understanding has given way to apologetics, pure and simple, when it came to Islam. Richard Landes: Wow, and this is four years before Said's Oriental. Andy Bostom: Right, and and from someone who, in many other ways, certainly when it came to Israel, probably was sympathetic to him. But but again, in the strange way human beings can think, he was compartmentalized enough in his area of study to be so forthright and blunt about this. And the other thing that I noticed Richard Landes: Yeah, I can't. Andy Bostom: is that right before he died, he admitted, you know, this is the period post-9-11, he admitted that that's some of the fundamental problems with with violence in Islam and That he he he sort of retro retrospectively apologized to to Jules Montereau, who was this outstanding French sociologist, who had called back in 1949, who had called Bolshevism and the emergence of communism the 20th century Islam. And and at the time Rod Rodin San was very offended by that. But but but at the end of his life. Richard Landes: Yeah. Andy Bostom: He admitted that, you know, Ma Jules Montereau was not so wrong. Richard Landes: Ay, ay, ay. Well, thank you very much, Andy. This is a very enlightening conversation. Andy Bostom: it's been fun. Richard Landes: Right. Andy Bostom: Take care. Richard Landes: Good night.