Latest / The Morning Edition / Trump's 'ulterior motive' in talking about 2020 electoral fraud –again

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Trump's 'ulterior motive' in talking about 2020 electoral fraud –again · The Morning Edition

0:07
S1: Why, six years on, is Donald Trump peddling yet again
0:11
S1: the falsehood that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, and
0:15
S1: how many Americans now believe it? I'm Samantha Selinger Morris,
0:19
S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age
0:22
S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, international and political editor
0:26
S1: Peter Hartcher on what the timing of Trump's renewed fixation
0:31
S1: tells us about his ulterior motive. It's July the 23rd. Peter,
0:39
S1: welcome back to the podcast.
0:40
S2: Pleasure, Samantha.
0:41
S1: You know, I'm always excited to have you on, but
0:42
S1: particularly today because Donald Trump has been cracking on again
0:46
S1: about electoral fraud, electoral interference, as he says, he says
0:51
S1: he's declassified intelligence files that reveal shocking vulnerabilities about the
0:55
S1: American electoral system. So tell us what he said and
0:58
S1: about this Intel that he says proves it all.
1:01
S2: Yeah. So six years on from the 2020 election, which
1:05
S2: he claims was stolen from him, he's again, uh, not
1:09
S2: only talking about that, but held a national address, televised
1:15
S2: address to the nation to advance the claim and to
1:19
S2: produce what he said were was shocking new evidence, as
1:22
S2: you say, of, quote, catastrophic, catastrophic failures in the US
1:28
S2: election system.
1:30
S3: Every American deserves to know that when they cast their vote,
1:33
S3: that vote will be counted accurately in a system, and
1:37
S3: that is to make that system secure, one where cheating
1:42
S3: and interference are not just difficult, but virtually impossible. Unfortunately,
1:48
S3: the system we have today falls catastrophically short of that standard.
1:54
S2: Now, this may be a little perverse because he, in
1:57
S2: fact is president today because of that same system, which
1:59
S2: is now undermining confidence in. Among the statements he, he
2:03
S2: he made and there was more than 20 minutes of
2:05
S2: this continuous stream from him, from the podium, were that
2:10
S2: China had run a huge interference campaign against him in
2:14
S2: the 2020 election, that Chinese authorities had stolen more than
2:19
S2: a quarter of a million voter details and used them
2:21
S2: against him. That Russia, China, Iran had all been meddling
2:27
S2: in the electoral system, that the system was completely broken
2:34
S2: and demanded. And this, I think, was the main point
2:38
S2: of the content of the speech, was to demand that
2:41
S2: the Congress get on and approve a bill that he's
2:44
S2: put before the Republicans have created before the Congress to
2:49
S2: pass the, quote, save, Save America, act.
2:54
S3: This landmark bill requires that all voters must show photo
2:59
S3: voter ID. How simple is that? Could I have your photo, please?
3:04
S3: Photo voter ID. All voters must provide proof of citizenship.
3:10
S3: Are you a citizen of our country? Please. And hopefully
3:14
S3: there will be no corrupt mail in ballots, which, if
3:17
S3: you watched California and so many others.
3:19
S2: Which is all about or mostly about trying to put
3:24
S2: Trump's demands that the states who run the elections in
3:28
S2: the US. Remember, this is a highly federalized system where
3:31
S2: the federal government has no role and the states conduct
3:35
S2: the elections. The states have to meet his demands for
3:38
S2: how to run the elections that are coming up in November,
3:43
S2: where they have the congressional midterms.
3:45
S1: Okay. Well, let's talk about the timing, because it really
3:47
S1: does speak to the ulterior motive that you sort of
3:49
S1: foreshadowed a bit before. And I find the timing so
3:52
S1: interesting because the US, of course, is facing a lot
3:55
S1: of immediate problems right now, right? Like Pete Hegseth, the
3:58
S1: defense secretary, just announced that the Iran war has so
4:00
S1: far cost $37.5 billion. Three American soldiers were just killed
4:06
S1: in that conflict. And yet Trump is talking about, of
4:09
S1: all things, electoral fraud now. So tell us about this timing, Peter.
4:13
S2: Well, it was a bit unseemly, actually, with the new
4:16
S2: deaths of American service members, 16 altogether so far in
4:20
S2: this war that that happened, not to mention the deaths of, uh,
4:26
S2: the murder of people on the streets by Ice agents
4:31
S2: that occurred last week. And as you say, what all
4:34
S2: the polls show is the overwhelming preoccupation and concern of
4:38
S2: American voters, which is the cost of living and high
4:41
S2: inflation and how that's eroding their living standards. Trump glazed
4:45
S2: over all of those. He claimed victory on everything. Uh,
4:51
S2: as he likes to say, I got everything right. And
4:56
S2: then just spent the next 20 plus minutes talking about
4:59
S2: electoral fraud. So why six years later, with these being
5:04
S2: the real concerns of real voters in his country and
5:07
S2: a war which is again, raging and pushing up the
5:09
S2: price of oil back to towards where it was earlier
5:12
S2: in the year. Is he talking about this? Well, the
5:16
S2: two obvious points are, one, his demand that the Congress
5:20
S2: pass the Save act, which is currently before it and
5:23
S2: which it's shown no interest in passing. And why that?
5:27
S2: Because that would affect the processes for voting for the
5:32
S2: November midterm elections, where the polls tell us that. And
5:37
S2: this is consistent with all historical patterns, that the incumbent
5:42
S2: party loses some support at the midterms. And that would
5:47
S2: be normal and natural. And the polls are telling us
5:49
S2: that is exactly what will happen. And Trump obviously is
5:52
S2: concerned about this. And rather than trying to salvage his
5:57
S2: approval ratings and the Republican Party standing through addressing the
6:01
S2: actual concerns of the American people, instead of bringing petrol
6:05
S2: and inflation and goods prices down, he continues to push
6:09
S2: them up with not only the war against Iran, but
6:14
S2: continuous attempts to impose new tariffs on imports, which pushes
6:18
S2: up prices and pushes up inflation. So rather than try
6:21
S2: to salvage public support for the Republican Party is instead
6:26
S2: stepping up pressure to be able to influence and tamper
6:32
S2: with and possibly rig the midterms themselves. So rather than
6:37
S2: improve the score, he's trying to meddle with the Scorekeepers.
6:42
S2: He is proposing now to try to assert, uh, influence
6:47
S2: federal influence over state run election campaigns rather than risk
6:51
S2: losing any Support in these in these elections.
6:55
S1: Okay. Well, I want to ask you a little bit
6:56
S1: about that, because you've just written that, you know, Trump
6:59
S1: has even sent his Homeland Security secretary. This is Markwayne Mullin,
7:03
S1: to issue a threat to state officials that if they
7:05
S1: don't do what the white House wants them to do
7:07
S1: to manage the upcoming midterm elections, that the federal government
7:10
S1: will pursue them with fines and even prison terms. Now,
7:13
S1: I know you're not a legal expert, Peter, but can you.
7:16
S2: Answer.
7:16
S1: Or not?
7:17
S2: No, no, I'm not an expert on anything.
7:18
S1: Well, I mean, listen, you and me both, but do
7:20
S1: you happen to know, is that even legal? Because. Because,
7:23
S1: like you've just said a bit earlier, I mean, the
7:25
S1: way these elections, it's a state it's a state issue
7:28
S1: the way these are run. Right? The president, as I
7:30
S1: understand it, has no power over the way state elections
7:34
S1: are run. If I'm correct.
7:36
S2: That's right. Well, what we hear from Markwayne Mullin, Markwayne
7:42
S2: tells us that the federal government will inform the states
7:46
S2: of where they see, uh, the risk of fraudulent voting
7:50
S2: and where the state should act. and if the states
7:53
S2: do not, then the federal government will pursue them with fines.
7:57
S2: And he said, depending on how far the fraud goes.
8:00
S2: Prison time. Now they have not specified. To get to
8:05
S2: your question, what they would charge those state officials with,
8:09
S2: what the crime that they would be charged with is
8:11
S2: to justify jail terms. So I presume they've got some
8:16
S2: some white House lawyers trying to concoct something. Whatever they
8:20
S2: concoct would be contested in the courts, of course, if
8:23
S2: it comes to that. But it's an obvious attempt either way,
8:28
S2: at simple intimidation of the states and the Congress to
8:32
S2: go along with Trump's will.
8:34
S1: I mean, that's probably the point, isn't it? You know,
8:36
S1: because it's going to get wrapped up in the courts anyway.
8:38
S1: And I guess even beyond that, tell us, I guess,
8:41
S1: about the ulterior motive, because you've written that all of
8:45
S1: this really is like a potential platform, right, for annulling
8:49
S1: the 2028 presidential elections, right?
8:52
S2: Well, potential being the key word there. It's still it's
8:56
S2: its only potential potential that he will do these things
9:00
S2: that he's threatening to do, but he is threatening their
9:02
S2: their real and potential.
9:04
S1: May I to say that a lot of people are
9:06
S1: openly fearing and commentating about like, it's not a fringe. No. Yeah.
9:10
S2: No. And as, as we've said already, this is not
9:13
S2: a man who's shown respect for electoral outcomes. None. No. Uh,
9:18
S2: and persists in fraud and lies of his own. So
9:22
S2: it's not shocking to, to, to observe that he's now
9:26
S2: trying to intimidate, pressure and affect the results of the
9:31
S2: midterm elections to favor himself and his party. But then
9:36
S2: having done that, why wouldn't he, given that everything he
9:40
S2: has done, uh, everything about him tells us he has
9:43
S2: no respect for the electoral process. Why wouldn't he then
9:46
S2: want to continue that into 2028? A man who's often
9:51
S2: joked and sometimes apparently seriously mused on the potential for
9:55
S2: staying on beyond the constitutional term limit beyond the 2028 election.
10:00
S2: Why wouldn't he be considering that? Why wouldn't he use
10:04
S2: any potential impression he can create that this year's midterms
10:09
S2: are fraudulent? To then go on to say, well, that
10:12
S2: was a fraud. We can't trust the presidential elections in 2028.
10:17
S2: So I think we should annul these. We don't need them.
10:20
S2: I'm doing a great job as president. Everything's great. We
10:23
S2: are the hottest country in the history of the world.
10:25
S2: He keeps saying he said that again last week. Yeah.
10:28
S2: Best economy, hottest country. Everything is perfect yet improving. So
10:32
S2: just leave me in power until we can sort out
10:35
S2: this electoral system mess. There seems to be a high
10:38
S2: degree of confidence, or the assumption among Americans that Trump
10:45
S2: won't do that. It seems to be generally accepted that
10:48
S2: he'll step down when the term expires. But looking at
10:53
S2: his history, his form, his mentality, and his latest claims,
10:59
S2: I don't think any of us should be shocked now
11:01
S2: to to think that he might want to stay on
11:03
S2: beyond 2028.
11:06
S1: After the break.
11:08
S2: Himself, in a moment of candor, said, I found out
11:11
S2: nobody cares. And it's not illegal.
11:22
S1: And I want to ask you about something else you
11:23
S1: wrote because you've just been spoken about, I guess some
11:26
S1: statements he's made, moves he's made that, I guess could
11:29
S1: be lumped into something of an authoritarian sort of vibe,
11:34
S1: I guess.
11:35
S2: Worldview, perhaps.
11:36
S1: Exactly. And, you know, there may be listeners who are thinking, oh,
11:39
S1: but wait a minute, there's safeguards in the American system
11:42
S1: to stop this from happening that will prevent, say, Trump,
11:44
S1: from serving an unconstitutional third term as president. But you've
11:48
S1: just written about recent ways in which Trump has flouted
11:50
S1: other presidential norms that, you know, perhaps lean in the
11:54
S1: authoritarian direction in ways that people might sort of not
11:57
S1: recognize as such. So can you just tell us about
12:00
S1: some of those recent examples?
12:01
S2: Well, in his first term as president, Trump was reasonably
12:06
S2: careful about conflicts of interest with his personal finances and
12:10
S2: the actions of his administration and put his businesses outside
12:16
S2: his own reach. Now, this term, he's he has done
12:20
S2: some thing. He has taken a step to protect himself
12:24
S2: against that accusation of conflict of interest, which of course,
12:27
S2: is a form of corruption because he's put his his
12:30
S2: personal finances and business into a revocable trust. Previous presidents
12:36
S2: have put their business interests into an irrevocable trust where
12:40
S2: they can't see what's being done with their funding, their finances,
12:44
S2: which are managed by trustees, and they can't revoke the trust.
12:48
S2: The trust remains fixed for their term in power Trumps
12:50
S2: is revocable so he can do what he pleases, really
12:53
S2: if he chooses to. But there's clearly a lot of
12:58
S2: double dealing self-dealing going on across a whole panoply of
13:04
S2: interests and investments that Trump has made. And himself, in
13:06
S2: a moment of candor, said, you know why he was
13:11
S2: less concerned about conflict of interest in this term? He said,
13:16
S2: I found out nobody cares. And it's not illegal. Yes.
13:20
S2: So as a result, we see that his personal income
13:24
S2: last year rose from the previous year's about 700 million
13:30
S2: USD in a year to last year, his first year
13:34
S2: back in the presidency, 2.4 billion USD. In a job
13:39
S2: where the salary is 400,000 a year. The most recent
13:42
S2: from the last few days was an announcement from Trump Media,
13:47
S2: which he controls. He owns 41% of that. That company
13:51
S2: announced that they would soon be selling a little gadget
13:56
S2: software gadget API that would be selling access to this
14:00
S2: for investors who want to get faster notice of his
14:04
S2: posts on Trump's social his own social media feed, where
14:09
S2: last month he posted more than six. Something like 670
14:13
S2: times in one month. Many of those posts affect markets.
14:17
S2: He comments on US companies, businesses, industries and. Ever since
14:22
S2: this war in Iran, his statements have affected the oil
14:25
S2: price every week, up or down. And so advance notice
14:30
S2: to these posts has a lot of market value attached
14:33
S2: to it. This is just the latest example of this
14:38
S2: obvious conflict of interest between Trump's official responsibilities as the
14:42
S2: president of a nation and his private companies opportunities to
14:47
S2: make profit from that position.
14:49
S1: Okay. So I guess to wrap up, though, because you've
14:52
S1: written about other ways in which Trump has sort of
14:55
S1: perhaps tried to consolidate a form of authoritarian power in
14:57
S1: ways that perhaps on first glance, don't seem like they
15:00
S1: are like they seem maybe vain or a bit silly.
15:03
S1: You know, like, for instance, the coin that now has
15:06
S1: his face on it, but you say they're actually not.
15:09
S1: I mean, they may be silly and they may be
15:11
S1: a bit vain, but you say they're not just vain
15:12
S1: and silly, right?
15:14
S2: Well, certainly a lot of Americans are offended by some
15:18
S2: of the vanity projects that he's imposing on America. The
15:23
S2: the announcement from the US Treasury a couple of days
15:25
S2: ago that they will be releasing a gold coloured coin,
15:30
S2: $1 coin with Trump's, uh, beautiful visage on it. His
15:36
S2: other vanity projects, some US passports are now being issued
15:39
S2: with Trump's face printed on them. The Treasury tried to
15:43
S2: publish to to print a $250 dollar bill with Trump's
15:46
S2: face on it, but the Congress blocked it. His projected
15:51
S2: his planned Trump arc, as it's called, to be built
15:54
S2: in Washington, D.C., according to Trump. At least that would
15:58
S2: tower above every other monument. And the fact that, uh,
16:03
S2: big banners of Donald Trump, you know, five, six, seven,
16:06
S2: eight meter tall colored banners of Trump hanging on federal
16:10
S2: government buildings in Washington, D.C., including on the Department of Justice,
16:14
S2: which is supposed to be an apolitical administrator of justice.
16:19
S2: Now it looks like it's got a Trump brand on
16:21
S2: the building. I mean, these are all vanity projects.
16:23
S1: And it also smacks of something that you might say, see,
16:25
S1: in Iran or in, you know, the Soviet Republic in
16:29
S1: those days.
16:30
S2: Exactly. In any autocracy, really?
16:32
S1: Yes.
16:33
S2: Or in in China. Um. That's right. Now, you know,
16:37
S2: they are a bit trivial because they in themselves don't
16:40
S2: really change anything. It's it's superficial, but they're potentially useful
16:46
S2: to us because these point to his mindset, his imperialist
16:51
S2: mindset that I should have all the power. Um, and
16:55
S2: he said so on the conflict of interests question, he said,
16:58
S2: presidents can't have a conflict of interest. It just it doesn't, can't,
17:02
S2: can't be because I'm the president. It's like Nixon saying,
17:05
S2: if the president does it, it's legal. We now have.
17:08
S1: To know that. We know how that worked out for him, though. So.
17:10
S2: Right. But Trump's having a lot more success in smashing
17:13
S2: through the traditional constraints.
17:16
S1: Every week we have a Watergate era type scandal. And
17:18
S1: it's it's a blip. So obviously it's a different story.
17:21
S2: So just look at the last week. There have been
17:23
S2: three striking case studies in each of those. One each
17:27
S2: in each of those fields. Um, Trump staking a claim
17:32
S2: to intimidate the conduct of the next elections, the midterm
17:37
S2: elections and threatening to intervene and punish and send to
17:41
S2: jail state officials for not doing, as he says, to
17:46
S2: get the results that he wants. We've got another conflict
17:50
S2: of interest question with this selling of early access to
17:53
S2: Trump's social media postings. And then we've got another example
17:57
S2: of this self-aggrandizement project with the gold coin. All of
18:02
S2: those are smashing through one way or another, precedent and
18:09
S2: constraint that other presidents have observed to get outcomes to
18:14
S2: aggrandize himself and to advance his own power.
18:17
S1: You were just in Washington, D.C., for over a week,
18:20
S1: and you told me before recording that at least among
18:24
S1: the people that you spoke to there and what you
18:26
S1: were sensing on the ground, that people are relatively numb
18:28
S1: now to what's happening. And so you wonder whether this
18:31
S1: is just going to give an air of inevitability to, okay,
18:34
S1: maybe we have an authoritarian now. Like maybe that's who
18:36
S1: we are now.
18:37
S2: Well, the Democrats talk a good game about opposing him
18:40
S2: and winning. But there seems. They seem still to be
18:44
S2: fumbling around to try and find an effective way of
18:48
S2: countering him. And yes, a lot of people, you use
18:52
S2: the word numbing the shock value of Trump. And these
18:56
S2: his actions is unconventional. Sometimes even unconstitutional actions seems to
19:03
S2: have been lost. A lot of people seem to be
19:05
S2: inured to this as a new reality that they just
19:09
S2: have to accept. So we'll see.
19:11
S1: Thank you so much for your time.
19:13
S2: Always a pleasure, Samantha.
19:22
S1: In other news today, house prices in Melbourne and Sydney
19:26
S1: have fallen slightly, with median house prices in Sydney at
19:29
S1: about $1.7 million and in Melbourne a touch over $1 million. Meanwhile,
19:35
S1: prices in Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth have increased. New York
19:40
S1: Mayor Zarin Mamdani has challenged the U.S. federal government to
19:44
S1: execute an international arrest warrant against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,
19:49
S1: calling him a war criminal. In a striking video statement.
19:53
S1: And at 75, Jackie Hudson will make her debut for
19:57
S1: Australia in lawn bowls at the Commonwealth Games. The great
20:01
S1: grandmother of two is one of Australia's oldest Commonwealth Games debutantes.
20:06
S1: You can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's
20:12
S1: episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer is
20:16
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20:20
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