Latest / The Mind of a Man / Cops Discover Teen_s Gruesome Secret_ The Murder of Grace Jennings _True Crime Documentary

Transcript

Cops Discover Teen_s Gruesome Secret_ The Murder of Grace Jennings _True Crime Documentary · The Mind of a Man

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: On a Saturday afternoon in October 2022, officers from the
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Santa Fe Police Department found 21-year-old Grace Jennings stabbed to
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: death by a large sword in the garage of a
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: house on Jaguar Drive. Grace did not live in the
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: home where she was found. She had only arrived the
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: night before, offered an ostensibly safe place to stay the
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: night by someone claiming to be her friend. Following the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: horrific discovery, two suspects were detained and questioned, each offering
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: a different story.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm partially hopeful for her to be dead, but
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'm also, like, confused.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: I'm scared right now.
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: What are you scared of?
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Of what just happened.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Eventually, the truth came out, though no one was prepared
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: for just how strange that truth would be. Hi there,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I'm Kevin, and welcome to Just Thought Lounge. Today's case
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: is really odd. The investigation unraveled on scene and through
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: interviews rapidly, despite a collection of confusing and bizarre details.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Was this a murder motivated by a love triangle, anger
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: over a breakup, outright insanity? Or was there something more
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: intricate and unpredictable at work under the surface? Let's Take
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: a look. At just before 2 p.m. on Saturday, October 29, 2022,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: officers from the Santa Fe PD were dispatched to a
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: home on Jaguar Drive. An emergency call had been placed
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: by a woman who claimed that her son had just
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: witnessed a murder at the property. Gathering at the front
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of the house, they then made their way along the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: left side of the house through a wooden gate. Officer
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Alvarado approached the backyard first and spotted a young blonde
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: woman in a black t-shirt and pajama bottoms walk from
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the detached garage and into the back door of the
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: main house. A red substance, appearing to be blood, was
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: visible on the door handle.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: Alvarado began to kick in the door.
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: Back up!
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: What's going on? Who called?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Someone was getting killed in here.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Where's the garage?
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Emerging from the house was the homeowner, Lani McCulley, followed
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: shortly after by her 19-year-old daughter, Kiara. It was Kiara
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: who had entered through the back door just as police arrived.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: Someone just called us. Someone just called. Step over here.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: Step over here. Someone just got stabbed inside that garage.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Lanny provided a key to the locked garage. Inside, amongst
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a floor covered in trash, officers discovered the lifeless body of.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: A young woman.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: A three-foot-long sword, blood covering the blade, rested just inside
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the door. Also inside the garage was a dagger and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: a butterfly knife. The officers were unable to gain access
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: to the garage from the large, apparently broken door on
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the other side of the building.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: It looks clear. Where is it? It's right here by
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: the door. There's way too much trash. Unless we can
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: open that back door, that garage. Can we open the
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: garage from that side?
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Medics arriving moments later had to push their way through
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: the smaller entrance to reach the victims. though she showed
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: no signs of life.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I have cats. I have to... Unfortunately, ma'am, but this
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: is an active investigation, okay? Can I walk the door somehow?
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: No, this is a crime scene at this point.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: How's my house a fucking crime scene? There's a deceased
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: person in your garage. That's why it's a crime scene.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: There's a body in there?
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: Yes. Stand up for me.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Walk this way.
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: What the fuck?
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: You didn't come here with me, ma'am?
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Who is she? Do you know who she is? I
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: don't know who was in there.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Is she.
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: Kiara said that her friend Grace was the.
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: Her ex-friend. There was a gal by the name of
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: Grace there last night.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: There's a purse that was right in the.
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: Grace.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: What is her last name? Jennings? She's a tall, skinny,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: black girl. If that helps you guys.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: The woman discovered on the garage floor was in fact
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: identified as 21-year-old Grace Jennings. She appeared to have been
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times. One of her ears had been removed.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: The medical examiner would later conclude that her injuries displayed
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: signs of an attempted decapitation.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: Who lives in this house?
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I do. You do?
• 5:43
  Speaker 6: Who else?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: My daughter and Isaac are the documents.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: Isaac lives in here?
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: Isaac and Kiara mostly stay in here.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, they both live in the middle.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: Isaac and Kiara are.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Together-ish.
• 5:57
  Speaker 6: I don't understand their relationship entirely.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: They were engaged to get married at one point, so
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: I count them kind of as my son-in-law.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: As Kiara was handcuffed and escorted to the police cruiser,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: officers noted cuts and bandages across her hands. Kiara would
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: later state that these were from earlier that morning when
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: she attempted to make herself something to eat and picked
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: up the knife wrong. After Kiara was secured, officers made
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: their way over to a local cell phone shop where
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: they expected to find the third resident of the house
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: on Jaguar Drive, 25-year-old Isaac Apodaca. His mother, Linda Montoya,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: had placed the 911 call leading police to Grace's body.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: She reported that her son was waiting at the shops
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: for police to arrive.
• 6:47
  Speaker 7: Come over here.
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: You're good.
• 6:48
  Speaker 6: Come here.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: You don't have any knives, any weapons on you?
• 6:51
  Speaker 6: No.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: No? Just put it down for now.
• 6:53
  Speaker 7: Just put it down. You're not in trouble, bro.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Got to make sure you don't have any weapons, okay?
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: Put your hands up right here.
• 6:58
  Speaker 6: Right here.
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: I get it.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: It's good, bro.
• 7:11
  Speaker 7: For now, bro, just because it looks like your girlfriend
• 7:14
  Speaker 7: or whoever's in there is really injured. So for now,
• 7:19
  Speaker 7: we're going to put you under detention of Kenton. We
• 7:21
  Speaker 7: can figure this out. You're not under arrest.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Isaac was escorted to a police cruiser. The owner of
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: the cell phone shop overheard the phone conversation between Isaac
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: and his mother, which had prompted the call to 911.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: What happened when he got here?
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Like to just kind of tell me, tell me what's
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: going on.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: Um, he just came in, came in, kind of shook up,
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: kind of like giving gravity to the things.
• 7:47
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Like kind of stumbling?
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Not really stumbling, but he just shook up. He couldn't
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: even talk. He couldn't talk to me. I'm like, bro,
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: you're okay. He's like, yeah, you're just, well, you're something awful.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I was like, you're okay?
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: Like, he's like, I can't even tell you, but it
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: was awful.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: And he just couldn't talk and started tearing.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Um, I told him, just have a seat, bro. Just relax.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: You don't have to tell me nothing.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Just chill. And then I think he was on the
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: phone talking to somebody.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: He came in crying, kind of tearing, shooken up when
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: he said that he did something bad?
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: No, he said he didn't. He said he witnessed.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: He witnessed something?
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: He said he witnessed something awful and I can't, I can't.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: And then he just kept stuttering. He couldn't even tell me.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: I kind of overheard when he was on the phone.
• 8:32
  Speaker 8: Um.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: He said they used, from what I heard, that he
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: bought a.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: Sword for display and they used it against another person.
• 8:44
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: And he believed that they were dead.
• 8:46
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: After speaking with his mother over the phone, Isaac was
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: contacted directly by law enforcement dispatch to confirm the details.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: To the dispatcher, he restated what he claimed to have
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: witnessed that morning. His sometimes girlfriend, Kiara McCulley, standing over
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Grace's dead body. I did it, she allegedly said to him.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: So, you said there was a female, because you live
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: in the garage, right?
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: You live in the garage? Yes. And who lives within
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: the garage, your girlfriend?
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: Chiara McCully.
• 9:22
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: So, can you tell me, how did this call transpire?
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: How did you call? I was, I walked into the.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: The garage. I walked into the garage. And when I
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: walk into the garage, she goes, oh, I just did it.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: And who was this? Kiara McCully. She told you that?
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Very calmly and everything. Blood on your hands.
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Four years earlier, Lani McCully had allowed her daughter's boyfriend
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: turned fiance, Isaac Apodaca, to move in. At first, the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: young couple lived in the spare room of the main house,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: and the family shared the space amicably. Home videos posted
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: online captured happier times. holidays, birthdays, and silliness with their
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: five beloved cats. A deeper look, however, revealed something darker
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: under the surface of the young couple's social media accounts.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Kiara used a handful of different names across platforms. Froggy, Sage,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: and Maze, to name a few. Many of her posts
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: were typical teenage content. Vacations, cats, memes that she thought
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: were clever. But some took a stranger turn. On TikTok,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: in the days before Grace's murder, Kiara posted distorted videos
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: of herself and Isaac with a deep red filter. Their
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: contorted faces overlaid with visual effects and loud, maniacal laughter.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: In another video, she lip synced to audio stating.
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: Can we all take a moment of fucking silence to
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: acknowledge the fact that despite the bullshit, I have yet
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: to turn into a serial killer?
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: There were other signs that something was off with Kiara.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: An ex-boyfriend reported that she began to refer to herself
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: as an all-powerful witch, that she intended to hex people,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: that she could levitate, and that she was able to
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: predict the exact date of everyone's death. These delusions, he said,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: were escalating. The last time this ex-boyfriend encountered her, she
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: threatened him. He said that Kiara was hostile towards him
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and said that her boyfriend could F him up in
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: a matter of seconds. Kiara must have been referring to Isaac. Online,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: she referred to Isaac as her ride or die. However,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: despite outward appearances, there were definitely cracks forming in their relationship.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Their three-year engagement had ended in early April, following an
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: argument that resulted in a trip to the ER, with
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Kiara sustaining minor injuries. Lanny had thrown Isaac from the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: house after that, only to have her daughter routinely sneak
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: him back in over the following months. Lanny eventually conceded,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: and allowed Isaac to live there once more. Because they
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: had spent years intending to be married, Lanny had come
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: to view Isaac as a son. and she often referred
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: to him as such. The couple, who maintained an on-again,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: off-again intimate arrangement, relocated from the house to the detached garage,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: where they had a bit more space and privacy. There
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: was also drama in other areas of Kiara and Isaac's
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: social life. For example, they each had a history with
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Grace Jennings. Grace was the reason Kiara and Isaac had
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: met years earlier. At the tender age of 16, Grace
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: had entered into a romantic relationship with a then 20-year-old
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Isaac Abodaca. It had been short-lived and the two had
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: apparently remained on good terms. Grace's relationship with Kiara, however,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: had not ended well. They too had been romantically involved.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Beginning in 2016 or 2017, after she had dated Isaac,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Grace were involved for roughly 11 months. Accounts
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: vary as to what led to the animosity between the
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: two after they split, but what is not disputed is
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: that when the dust settled, Kiara maintained a deep-seated anger
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: towards her ex-girlfriend. Grace had tried everything possible to avoid
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Kiara as a result.
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: This girl was my girlfriend at one point, but we
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: became friends afterwards, but This is psychotic. I'd just gotten
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: out of treatment. I was in there for eight months,
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: and I went to the mall to go hang out
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: with my sister and, I don't know, just chill. I
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: was enjoying being out and about, and I see one
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: of my homies, and then I see her. Walking around, talking, chatting, whatever.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: And this chick literally goes, I shit you fucking not.
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: Did you just get out of jail because you stabbed
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: me and cut me two months ago?
• 14:53
  Speaker 8: Huh? What?
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: And I told this bitch straight up, no, the fuck
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: I didn't. I was in treatment. Like, yes, you did.
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: I have evidence on my arm. Looked at it and
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: it looks like she stabbed herself on her forearm, her
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: left forearm.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: By the autumn of 2022, the two had had very
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: little to do with each other for years. Grace had
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: moved on with her life. On August 22nd, her 21st birthday...
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Grace became engaged to her boyfriend, a man named Jackson,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: amongst friends and family. They were living in Albuquerque. Only
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: three days before her death, however, the two had a
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: heated argument and parted ways. The first location where Grace
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: went to stay after the breakup was not working out. So,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: she reached out to friends, seeking anyone who could help
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: her find a place to crash. Isaac Apodaca answered the call.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Grace could stay with him, he said. Only after she arrived,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Grace learned whose home she had been invited to. Isaac
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Apodaca and Kiara McCulley were placed in separate interview rooms
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: for questioning. Neither was, at that stage, under arrest for
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: the murder of Grace Jennings. Investigators already knew that Grace
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: had arrived at the house only the day before. She
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: had stayed the night in the garage with both Isaac
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: and Kiara. Twelve hours after her arrival, she was dead.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Isaac told the detective that the three of them slept
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: in the same bed that night. In the morning, he
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: claimed that Kiara had told him he had to move out.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: She was furious that he had invited Grace to stay.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: After packing some of his things, he went to the
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: main house to use the restroom. After what he estimated
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: could only have been two to three minutes, he returned
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and found Grace dead.
• 16:51
  Speaker 9: And then I walked him back into the garage.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: She walks up to me and goes, I did it.
• 17:00
  Speaker 9: With a smile on her face and I look at
• 17:02
  Speaker 9: the ground and I was like, uh, what do I
• 17:10
  Speaker 9: do now?
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: I'm scared right now.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: What are you scared of?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Of what just happened.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: A lot to take in, I can imagine.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: The timeline offered by Isaac was exact. Grace had arrived
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: at 11.32 p.m. the night before, he said.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: What time did you guys wake up at? What time
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: did you wake up at?
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I woke up at about 7.50.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: 7.50 a.m.? Yes. So did this.
• 17:45
  Speaker 8: At what time did Kiara tell you you guys had
• 17:47
  Speaker 8: to leave?
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: She told us we had to leave at about 8.30.
• 17:49
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: I'm being honest.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: It was just before 12 p.m. when he witnessed Kiara's confession.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: How long did you use the restroom for?
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: About 30 seconds. It was quick, number one. Okay.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: What do you mean by number one? Pee.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Pee.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Okay. And then, after you peed, you went immediately back
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: to the garage?
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: So around what time would you say that was at? 1147.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: Are you, how certain are you about the time?
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: I'm really certain.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Really certain about the time?
• 18:34
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Detectives believed that the injuries observed on Grace Jennings' body
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: were far too numerous and severe to have been inflicted
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: within the span of only two to three minutes while
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Isaac was in the main house as he claimed. It
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: was far more likely that he had stayed away for
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: a lengthier period of time. or that he had been
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: present in the garage at the time of the murder.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Isaac reported that he phoned his mother at noon.
• 19:01
  Speaker 8: Between when this happened, 12, and I think.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: We got the call a little after 1.30.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: Kind of an hour and a half gap there.
• 19:13
  Speaker 8: I know you said you called your mom and she
• 19:15
  Speaker 8: quickly called 911, but it doesn't really seem to line up.
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: With our timeline, at least for me.
• 19:20
  Speaker 8: Can you help make me understand that? Was there a
• 19:23
  Speaker 8: long period of time that you and Kiara were trying
• 19:26
  Speaker 8: to figure out what was going to happen?
• 19:29
  Speaker 9: There was a long period of time.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: It was when I was standing on the side of
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: the garage.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: Tell me about that.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I was hyperventilating on the side of the garage. I
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: was like.
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: You've been super truthful this whole time from what I
• 19:50
  Speaker 8: can tell and we really much appreciate that um I
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: got one more question I want to be real truthful
• 19:59
  Speaker 8: with it because you have been this whole time okay
• 20:01
  Speaker 8: yes at any point did you think of or did
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: you Did it cross your mind, or did you start
• 20:09
  Speaker 8: helping Kiara with.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: Covering this up at all?
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: No.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: No.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: At any point, did you help Kiara injure Grace or
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: do anything to Grace?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: No. No.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Kiara McCauley's interview immediately took an unexpected turn when she
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: began to speak with a non-existent person in the room.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: She then helpfully explained to the detective her self-diagnosis was
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: disassociative identity disorder, a condition previously known as multiple personality disorder.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: The detective was speaking with Froggy, a persona she described
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: as her stage name. Amongst her personas was someone called Jinx,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: who she described as the troublemaker. Then there was Abby,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: who was the protective one. Jess or Jessica, who she
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: had not seen lately, and finally, little Kiara.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: I was trying to sleep.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: If you want walking memories from me again, do it.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: Sorry. Who are you talking to?
• 21:27
  Speaker 8: Um.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: My best guess is that I have DID, but I'm
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: not 100% certain.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: What's DID?
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Dissociative Identity Disorder. One personality that.
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: I haven't seen in a long time, like I haven't
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: communicated with her. I wonder.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Her name was Jess.
• 21:53
  Speaker 10: Jess.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Jessica, but you always called her Jess.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: Any other personalities?
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: There's the little version of me, which actually responds to
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: my biological name, my government name, which is very dangerous
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: for her, and I don't want her to get hurt.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: None of us do. She responds to Kiara?
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Kiara, or Froggy, told the detective about her past with Grace.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: She claimed that a video was produced in 2016. when
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: she was 14 years old, that showed her being assaulted
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: by multiple men while Grace stood off to the side
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: of the screen collecting money. Santa Fe police later confirmed
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: that around the time that Kiara claimed this took place,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: she had in fact reported an incident to police, though
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: the details provided at that time did not match those
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: she claimed to the detective following Grace's murder.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: Is she alive or dead?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Grace?
• 23:01
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: You don't know?
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: What do you think?
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: Well, I'm partially hopeful for her to be dead, but
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: I'm also confused.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Why would you hope that she's dead?
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: I'm still angry at her, but I also have hope
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: that she'd be better. It's like this frustrating emotion that
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: I can't seem to pinpoint.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: She was the first person I ever loved.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Grace was?
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And the first person to completely destroy it. So part
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: of me hates her guts and wants to see her dead.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: The other part wants to see her get better and.
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: See if she'd admit it and just fix it.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: It's like I'm split.
• 23:53
  Speaker 10: I don't know what's the better emotion.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Fighting between them is really challenging for her. That's why
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't want her in my home. It's just like,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: this is too much.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of emotion. You said that part of
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: you would be okay if she was dead, right?
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: Honest. I like honest people.
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: I don't want to lie.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Have you ever thought about hurting her or killing her?
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I've had a couple dreams like that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: You've had a couple dreams like that?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Dependent on the dream.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: In an effort to explain.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Her condition, Kiara used a video game analogy.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: It was as though all of her.
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: Personalities were connected to the same gaming system, like an Xbox.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: But at any given point in time, only one of
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: them held the controller. The question was, when Grace Jennings
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: was brutally murdered, who was playing the game?
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: So who was playing the game last night?
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I felt like.
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: I was in control for a little while and then
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: it just kept getting really foggy like I was being
• 25:21
  Speaker 6: thrown in a wall.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: God damn, it hurts.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: You're in control, meaning Proggy, right? That's who I'm talking
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: to now, Proggy. Do you think he killed Grace? I'm
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: not sure. She is dead. That's the dead person who
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: found the garage. Do you have any memory of that?
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: Kiara claimed that an invisible force, which she believed to
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: be the spirit of little.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Kiara, had held back her arm when she first attempted
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to stab Grace in her sleep with the dagger.
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: I had my dagger in my hand, and I kept going,
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: and then just stopped. I felt a little kid's hand
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: hold me back. Like it was Kiara telling me, don't, don't, don't, don't.
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: Because that was also her best friend's sister growing up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Kiara may have had no recollection of committing the murder,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: but she did admit to strange visions that she could
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: not explain.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: It looked like an ear on my wall. What? An
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: ear on my wall. It was really confusing.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: It was an ear on your wall?
• 27:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I think that was part of the dream, though.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Like a human ear?
• 27:08
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck?
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: What did it look like?
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: It looked like one of Grace's, but it had, like,
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: dagger in it, and the dagger's not that sharp.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yep. Like, what the fuck?
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: The possibility remained that Kiara, or one of her personalities,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: was not the only one responsible. Kiara was asked to
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: explain her relationship with Isaac. What role did he play
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: in this? The detective could not have been prepared to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: make sense of the response he received.
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: So, there's an organization that Isaac is in charge of.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I probably shouldn't be saying this to a guy.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: That's not what the message is about. I'm just trying
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: to understand it more, you know?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it's called Ghost. They're like an underground version of
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: cops in a way, but a little more intense. And they.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Get rid of.
• 28:07
  Speaker 10: People who are in charge of sex trafficking, in charge
• 28:14
  Speaker 10: of anything that has to deal with hurting kids.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: I see.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Kiara had joined Isaac's secret organization. She had an initiation
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: tattoo on her arm and another that represented membership in
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: her platoon. If she wanted to advance in the organization, however,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: she needed to take action. She needed to become a
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: killer vigilante and exact justice upon those they believed deserved it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Isaac had told her if she wanted to level up,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: she needed to kill Grace Jennings.
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: He kept trying to tell me, just do it, and
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: you're going to just kill her.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Then you'll get ranked up.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: He had me join. And I'm like, I don't know
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: what the fuck's going on.
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: Talking about the black market and ghost and Bitcoin, the
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: end of the world in 24 days.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: There was a number, he said, like a number of
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: people he killed.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: How many? 40. 40 people. Supposedly. It's a big claim.
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: Inside of it? Just all over?
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Probably partially in Roswell. He was in a gang.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: Or is. But he no longer lives in Roswell. It's confusing.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: What gang was he in?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Know the name of the place.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: During Isaac's interview, he signed a waiver that gave Santa
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Fe investigators access to his phone data. When they began
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: to read through his messages, those inviting Grace to stay,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: and then exchanges with Kiara after her arrival, a twisted
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: plot emerged. Despite Isaac's description of the three of them
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: hanging out that night and sharing the bed to sleep,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Grace's messages that morning suggested that she was concerned over
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: whether Kiara even knew she was in the garage. On
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: the morning she was killed, she messaged Isaac, why is
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: she kicking you out? And does she know I'm here?
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: More disturbing were the messages exchanged between Kiara and Isaac
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: throughout that night as Grace slept. These messages, exchanged on Facebook,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: appeared to show the two planning the murder and discussing
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the subsequent cleanup. Detectives read through Isaac's correspondence with him
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: in the interview room. In this way, he was able
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to provide context to the conversations in real time. He
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: claimed that only some of the messages sent from his
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: device had been written by him. The most incriminating ones,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: he said, were sent from his other phone. Kiara must
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: have been holding a conversation with herself using this other device,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: he claimed.
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: Yeah, why don't you pop off my little firecracker? What
• 31:11
  Speaker 8: would you like me to do? Stab her?
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't have the energy to do shit.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know. That's not me.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: That's not you?
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: That's not me.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Who is it?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: That's the other phone that's been.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: They.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Were being used to message back and forth.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Isaac, this is getting really weird, man.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: I have a second phone.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: You have a second phone? Yes. Where is that phone?
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: That's at the house.
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: It is logged into the same Facebook account.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Okay. I don't know, man.
• 31:46
  Speaker 8: These messages look a lot like there's some conspiring going on,
• 31:51
  Speaker 8: some planning going on.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: The detective then read through an exchange that took place
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: as they prepared for bed, and then, after they believed
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Grace had fallen asleep, Kiara had likely joined them in
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the garage at that time.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: Dagger because it's blunt? What does.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: That mean?
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: Why are you telling her dagger because it's blunt?
• 32:16
  Speaker 9: She asked me a question in the room, like, what
• 32:19
  Speaker 9: What is the difference between the dagger and the sword?
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Okay. And I messaged dagger because.
• 32:25
  Speaker 8: It's... Why is blunt better? She says, you say it
• 32:27
  Speaker 8: cuts like butter. She says, just going to stab the throat?
• 32:32
  Speaker 8: Is that what she's trying to say?
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: The thought.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: Just going to stab the thought.
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Instant or will it take long? What does she mean?
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: Instant.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: What do we do about the mess? What do we
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: do about the mess? What mess? We burn it and
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: I'll buy new blankets and bed.
• 32:55
  Speaker 8: What's going on here, Isaac? She.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: I was talking to her and.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: What mess?
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: She was talking about.
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: I.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: She said stab... I was going to.
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: Stab the thought. And I thought the thought like.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: She was poking the thought that was in her head
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: about her dagger.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: Okay. What about the mess? What mess?
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: She had made a mess in the bed.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: What kind of mess?
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: A poop kind of mess.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: A poop kind of mess?
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: We burn it and I'll buy new blankets in bed.
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 33:43
  Speaker 8: But until we can, I love these sheets and my
• 33:45
  Speaker 8: favorite fuzzy blanket is here.
• 33:46
  Speaker 6: I know.
• 33:48
  Speaker 8: Just intense wash tomorrow. Hydrogen peroxide and ice washer will
• 33:53
  Speaker 8: get it out.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: Can you help this time?
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:56
  Speaker 8: I am just waiting for you to make the first move.
• 34:00
  Speaker 8: What does she mean, I'm waiting for you to make
• 34:01
  Speaker 8: the first move? She will wait till sleep. Shall we
• 34:07
  Speaker 8: wait till sleep? So she pooped herself last night?
• 34:11
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: And did you guys wash the sheets?
• 34:15
  Speaker 6: No.
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: So you guys slept in a bed full of poop?
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: So when we... Go to the garage later for a
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: search warrant. There's poop on the sheets.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Okay. Gotcha. What are you guys waiting for till sleep?
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Shall we wait till sleep? Remember when you told me
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: don't be a pussy when I kissed you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, brat.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: We will have to take care of the mess ASAP
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: after we finish. We will have to take care of
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: the mess. I thought she already pooped herself. What mess
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: are you guys taking care of?
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: You're in charge of cleanup.
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 34:51
  Speaker 8: I can't tell if she's fallen asleep. It feels like it.
• 34:55
  Speaker 8: Her feet are on my side. I wish she'd make
• 34:58
  Speaker 8: the first move for once. Remember, you'll move up the ranks,
• 35:02
  Speaker 8: plus you get perks in the black market since this
• 35:04
  Speaker 8: is your first. Your first what? Isaac, what the hell happened?
• 35:14
  Speaker 8: Tell me what happened, for real. Can we stop making
• 35:17
  Speaker 8: up lies about these messages? What the hell happened last night?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Isaac did not admit to luring Grace to the McCulley
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: house with the intent to kill her. He denied planning
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the murder, and he refused to acknowledge that the messages
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: on his phone to Kiara encouraging her to commit the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: murder were sent by him. That is, until the detective
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: read one message that did away with any ambiguity. It began,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I want you to kill her. End your suffering by
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: ending her joy.
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: What do you mean here when you say that? Poggle,
• 35:55
  Speaker 8: I am wanting you to kill her. You have to
• 35:58
  Speaker 8: end your suffering by ending her joy.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: I want her to.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: End her suffering.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: I do mean what it means in that text.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: You meant what it says in that text? Yes.
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: Why?
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Come on, man. How do we make sense of all this?
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: He was bringing great suffering to Kiara.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: Who was?
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: Grace.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: Grace was bringing great suffering to Kiara?
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: And that's why you wanted Kiara to kill Grace?
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: It seems that both Isaac and Kiara believe or claimed
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: to believe the story they told themselves about Grace Jennings,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: that she had somehow sold 14-year-old Kiara to a group
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: of men. The video of the incident allegedly circulated online.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: It was this unsupported assertion that Isaac also made to
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: the detective to justify the murder, though he fell short
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: of revealing the secret operations of Ghost, the gang of
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: vigilantes who he claimed to lead.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Hey, Isaac.
• 37:20
  Speaker 8: You know it's illegal to plan killing someone, right?
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:25
  Speaker 8: There's got to be a little bit of accountability for that.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: You understand that, right? So we are going to file
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: a paperwork. You are going to go to jail tonight.
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Isaac Apodaca and Kiara McCulley were charged with first-degree murder.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: One month after the murder, in November 2022, a judge
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: found Kiara McCulley was not competent to stand trial. she
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: was sent to the New Mexico Behavioral Health Institute in
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Las Vegas, New Mexico to receive treatment. Only a month
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: after that, however, a state evaluation found that she was competent,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: and so was rebooked into the Santa Fe County Jail
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: in January 2023. After a pretrial hearing found sufficient evidence
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: to continue with the murder charges against him, Isaac Apodaca
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: initially accepted a plea deal. the details of which were
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: not placed on the public record. That is because in
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: November 2024, Isaac fired his attorneys and had the judge
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: tear up the deal. He re-entered a plea of not guilty.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: A backlog at the state's crime lab initially set back
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the trial date by years. Now, with a new legal
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: team that needs to get up to speed, the start
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: date for Isaac's trial has been pushed back once more.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: In February 2025, however, Kiara McCulley made a deal. She
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in exchange for her future
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: testimony against her former fiancé, Isaac Apodaca, should his case
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: ever reach trial. She faces up to 30 years in
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: prison under the deal, despite the downgraded charges to second-degree murder.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: The deputy district attorney said the extra time is due
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: to the brutality of the murder.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: My role tonight is.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: In the form of my sister.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Grace Jennings.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Grace Jennings is desperately missed by her loved ones. Her aunt,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Catherine Jennings, told the Santa Fe New Mexican, she was
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: the laughter, she was the joy, the singing, the dancing.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: She was the friend, she was the sister, she was
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: the daughter, the beloved niece, the cousin. She was just
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: a beautiful soul with a lot of hope. And that
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: was the tragic case of Grace Jennings. Thank you for
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: joining me, and a special thanks this week to Phenom,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Paul Spicer, and Lauren H., Jake Kelly, and Bossifus for
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: becoming Sherlock Holmes members and joining our lounge. I'm Kevin,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: this is Just Thought Lounge, and I'll see you in
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: the next one.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Go ahead and settle in.
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: Gotta be selective. Doing all the research. Keeping it objective.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: Always been effective. Can say he got a neck.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Pick it a litter.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: You see how Newton got his back.
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: The content that you need.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: This could be a new sign. We talk in the comments.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: They jot in a few lines. Tune in and hit like.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: Love that. It's too kind. Feels like the whole world
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: is online for true crime. Watch them on the run,
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: but it's not a race. Really hard to decide.