Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / The Kardashians Impact: Good or Bad? with Cultural Critic Kimberly Nicole Foster

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The Kardashians Impact: Good or Bad? with Cultural Critic Kimberly Nicole Foster · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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Speaker 1: And we had some exciting news this week because Maria Shiver,
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Speaker 1: who's a journalist that I've looked up to for a
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Speaker 1: it was truly an honor. Today's episode is kind of
1:49
Speaker 1: a departure, and let me tell you what I mean.
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Speaker 1: I am an interviewer. I am a journalist. That's how I identify,
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Speaker 1: and so sometimes I like shot away from sharing my opinions,
2:02
Speaker 1: but I've honestly been getting more comfortable with it, and
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Speaker 1: I kind of enjoy it because I have a lot
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Speaker 1: of opinions, as do we all, because this podcast is
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Speaker 1: for women with something to say. But I wanted to
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Speaker 1: start sort of this departure episode with something that's been
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Speaker 1: on my mind for years, and that is the Kardashians.
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Speaker 2: So one of the reasons that I got.
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Speaker 1: Into entertainment journalism ten years ago was because I loved
2:27
Speaker 1: pop culture, and not so much the idea of what
2:32
Speaker 1: is Jlo wearing, which obviously I care, but I more
2:36
Speaker 1: looked at it like pop culture was a mirror that
2:40
Speaker 1: showed us what we believed as a society to be
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Speaker 1: true and also showed us where we were going. So,
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Speaker 1: for instance, I remember when Kim Kardashian's paper magazine cover
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Speaker 1: came out and people were so mad about it because
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Speaker 1: she had her butt showing on the cover, and you
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Speaker 1: remember that champagne glass thing. And I remember reading all
3:01
Speaker 1: the comments and they were all like, oh my god,
3:03
Speaker 1: how could you do that?
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Speaker 2: You're a mother?
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Speaker 1: And I was like, this is so interesting because most
3:09
Speaker 1: people are focused on the cover of the magazine, But
3:11
Speaker 1: what I was focused on was how we desexualize moms
3:15
Speaker 1: in America. And that's obviously just one aspect of many
3:20
Speaker 1: cultural criticisms or curiosities. Should I say that we could
3:24
Speaker 1: talk about in terms of that cover, But I just
3:26
Speaker 1: think pop culture really holds a mir up. So I've
3:29
Speaker 1: always wanted to cover the Kardashians. I think that in
3:33
Speaker 1: some ways they've moved our society forward a little bit,
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Speaker 1: and in many many ways, I honestly, I think they've
3:40
Speaker 1: been pretty negative. I was actually just at lunch with
3:43
Speaker 1: a friend who said, I wish that I was born
3:47
Speaker 1: in an era that the Kardashians didn't exist, and I
3:50
Speaker 1: thought that was pretty impactful for them to really feel
3:54
Speaker 1: that way. So I wanted to talk about it. Because
3:57
Speaker 1: the Kardashians are in the business of getting us talking.
4:00
Speaker 1: To talk about it, I wanted to do so with
4:03
Speaker 1: one of my favorite cultural critics. She's definitely one of
4:05
Speaker 1: my favorite follows on Twitter, and we're really going to
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Speaker 1: get into are the Kardashians a net positive or net
4:12
Speaker 1: negative for our society?
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Speaker 2: And is their power waning? That was super interesting, so
4:17
Speaker 2: let me jump into the intro.
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Speaker 1: The Kardashians are in the business of being famous for
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Speaker 1: some their symbols of female empowerment, self made business and
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Speaker 1: marketing savvy entrepreneurs. People love watching their hair, makeup and
4:31
Speaker 1: fashion trends, and all the tumultuous relationships and family loyalty.
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Speaker 1: For others, the Kardashians have come to represent capitalist greed,
4:42
Speaker 1: influencer of rapidity, cultural appropriation, a family with one point
4:47
Speaker 1: two billion social followers influencing people to do what exactly, well,
4:53
Speaker 1: what if both are true? I enlisted one of my
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Speaker 1: favorite people to follow on Twitter to help me sift
4:59
Speaker 1: through all that today Kimberly Nicole Foster is an American
5:03
Speaker 1: writer and cultural critic. She's best known as the founder
5:06
Speaker 1: of the black women's interest website for Harriet. She was
5:09
Speaker 1: named Forbes thirty Under thirty in twenty sixteen. Her work
5:12
Speaker 1: has been recognized by Essence Magazine, Complex, Teen, Vogue. She's
5:16
Speaker 1: a Harvard grad who says she watches way too much
5:20
Speaker 1: reality TV. It says that you're a Harvard grad who
5:29
Speaker 1: watches way too much reality TV. You're even wrapping your
5:33
Speaker 1: Harvard sweatshirt, which I really appreciate.
5:35
Speaker 2: What does that mean to you? Why too much reality TV?
5:39
Speaker 3: I have been an avid fan of reality TV since
5:45
Speaker 3: I was maybe eight or nine, and I watched my
5:49
Speaker 3: first full season of the Real World, which I feel
5:52
Speaker 3: like was New Orleans and I want to go back
5:55
Speaker 3: and check, like what year was that? But I feel
5:57
Speaker 3: like I was so young, way too young be really
6:00
Speaker 3: into it, And ever since then, I've just been obsessed.
6:04
Speaker 3: I will watch any reality show about anything, anywhere in
6:08
Speaker 3: the world. Competition, big Brother, I am all in, what
6:13
Speaker 3: do you think it is?
6:14
Speaker 2: You love watching other people live their lives.
6:17
Speaker 3: I am fascinated by the human experience. Not to turn
6:20
Speaker 3: this into a fake deep thing, But I really believe
6:25
Speaker 3: that I am so interested in humans and how they
6:29
Speaker 3: behave and how they connect with each other, and how
6:33
Speaker 3: we disagree and why. I just think that there is
6:36
Speaker 3: something so obviously we know reality TV is fake in
6:42
Speaker 3: so many ways, but there are so many things in
6:44
Speaker 3: those shows you can't fake, and that is just endlessly
6:49
Speaker 3: fascinating to me.
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Speaker 1: Well, it also seems like you have this culturally critical
6:55
Speaker 1: eye for pop culture, which to me, reality TV fits
6:59
Speaker 1: under that umbrella.
7:00
Speaker 2: Were you always a pop.
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Speaker 1: Culture junkie, you know how like when we were younger,
7:03
Speaker 1: it was People magazine and all of that.
7:05
Speaker 4: Yeah.
7:06
Speaker 3: Ever since I was a little kid, I thought I
7:09
Speaker 3: wanted to be five different things. But one of the
7:11
Speaker 3: things that I wanted to be starting around nine, when
7:14
Speaker 3: I became a real person, because I feel like that's
7:17
Speaker 3: when you develop a sense of self, was a magazine editor.
7:22
Speaker 3: And I started using the internet really early. My mom
7:26
Speaker 3: gave me an HTML book when I was around that age,
7:30
Speaker 3: and I started making little websites. And one of the
7:32
Speaker 3: first little websites that I coded myself was my own
7:35
Speaker 3: little magazine called Starlet.
7:38
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that you're kind of doing
7:40
Speaker 1: that in your own way now with for Harriet.
7:43
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
7:44
Speaker 3: I mean, if we're gonna talk about people who are
7:49
Speaker 3: living their dreams, like I am one of those people
7:52
Speaker 3: live in the dream every day.
7:53
Speaker 2: I'm really happy to hear that. That's very cool. When
7:56
Speaker 2: did you start for Harriet?
7:57
Speaker 4: For Harriet started as a blog.
7:58
Speaker 3: I started it in my college dorm room in twenty ten,
8:03
Speaker 3: and that was peak blog era, you know, shout out
8:07
Speaker 3: to the oldies, okay, like me, like I'm like a
8:11
Speaker 3: vintage internet person now, but when everybody was on blogs
8:15
Speaker 3: and message boards, and I wanted to make a space
8:20
Speaker 3: where I could talk about my political identity but also
8:24
Speaker 3: my interests in pop culture commentary and bring lots of
8:27
Speaker 3: other women into it. So it was a blog slash
8:31
Speaker 3: digital magazine kind of thing. And then around twenty fifteen,
8:37
Speaker 3: I was doing an event and someone said to me,
8:42
Speaker 3: you're you're good like, you're a good talker, you're charismatic.
8:45
Speaker 4: You should make videos.
8:46
Speaker 3: And I thought, oh no, I don't want to put
8:48
Speaker 3: my face on the internet and be a thing. And
8:51
Speaker 3: then I went through a bad breakup and I was like, I'm.
8:53
Speaker 4: Putting my face on the Internet.
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Speaker 1: So I was already I've had so many people say
9:00
Speaker 1: that to me.
9:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, they go through a breakup and they're.
9:04
Speaker 1: Like, I'm starting this company, I'm putting my face on
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Speaker 1: the internet.
9:07
Speaker 2: I'm doing it all one hundred percent.
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Speaker 3: Whenever I tell that story, they're like, yeah, when I
9:13
Speaker 3: went through a breakup, I went back to grad school.
9:15
Speaker 3: When I went through a breakup, I started this company
9:18
Speaker 3: right like all of these different things for sure. And
9:20
Speaker 3: so that breakup happened and I had to do something
9:23
Speaker 3: to get myself together. I started making videos. Originally I
9:26
Speaker 3: published them on Facebook because that's where everybody was at.
9:30
Speaker 4: That time, back in the old days.
9:32
Speaker 3: And then my nieces, I saw them always.
9:37
Speaker 4: Asking for our phones.
9:38
Speaker 3: And they're nine now about to be ten, and this
9:41
Speaker 3: is when they were real, real young, and they were
9:42
Speaker 3: always asking for our phones and iPads and whatever, and
9:45
Speaker 3: I'm like, what are y'all doing on here?
9:47
Speaker 4: And they were watching YouTube.
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Speaker 3: And I was googling, like was this safe?
9:52
Speaker 4: And what's happening?
9:53
Speaker 3: And then I realized, oh, there's so many people making
9:58
Speaker 3: great livings on YouTube, just talk talking about whatever they want.
10:01
Speaker 3: And so I decided to start publishing on Facebook and YouTube.
10:06
Speaker 3: And then eventually I decided to just focus completely on YouTube.
10:11
Speaker 2: And it's proven a successful strategy for you. Yeah. You know.
10:15
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I feel really drawn to
10:17
Speaker 1: your work is I've always come at pop culture from
10:21
Speaker 1: a critical eye, not that it can't just be like
10:24
Speaker 1: fun and easy, because it totally can.
10:26
Speaker 2: But your videos really.
10:27
Speaker 1: Break down pop culture based on gender, race, class, so
10:32
Speaker 1: on and so forth, and so I wanted to break
10:35
Speaker 1: down the Kardashians with you today. I have to tell you,
10:38
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit nervous. I've had very strong thoughts
10:42
Speaker 1: about the Kardashians for probably about ten years, and because
10:47
Speaker 1: of my job, I never touched on it. And I
10:52
Speaker 1: saw your video on YouTube about how Kim and Chloe
10:57
Speaker 1: were changing their bodies, which we'll get into further, and
11:00
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, fuck it, because I fully
11:05
Speaker 1: agreed with you, and I think it's interesting to speak
11:08
Speaker 1: about them, not from a hateful place in any way,
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Speaker 1: but from a place of trying to understand how they're
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Speaker 1: impacting culture so overarchingly, would you say NET positive or
11:20
Speaker 1: NET negative?
11:22
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, I don't like a binary.
11:24
Speaker 4: Oh I don't.
11:25
Speaker 3: I can't do that, but I want to go back
11:28
Speaker 3: and say that I think it's really important that you
11:31
Speaker 3: underscore that when we are talking about the Kardashians as
11:35
Speaker 3: at this point an American institution, you know, like a
11:40
Speaker 3: pop culture, I conics honestly, like, you know, like we
11:46
Speaker 3: have to be honest about how influential they are, how
11:49
Speaker 3: much power they are. It is not about hate, right,
11:52
Speaker 3: And I feel I get a little bit defensive because
11:56
Speaker 3: I do get a lot of comments like y'all hate them,
11:59
Speaker 3: and I'm like, it's not about hate, but okay, net positive,
12:03
Speaker 3: net negative. Oh gosh, oh, I'm gonna plead the fifth
12:11
Speaker 3: because I think it's so complicated. I think the Kardashians,
12:17
Speaker 3: more than being wholly bad or holly good, they are
12:23
Speaker 3: such a good reflection, a good representation of what American
12:31
Speaker 3: culture is and where it's going.
12:34
Speaker 2: Interesting.
12:35
Speaker 4: I can't think that's good or bad. It just is.
12:37
Speaker 1: But I am interested in the fact that you say
12:40
Speaker 1: where it's going, because I agree it's a mirror. They're
12:42
Speaker 1: a mirror in a lot of ways of what Americans value.
12:49
Speaker 1: I don't know if I agree if they're what we
12:52
Speaker 1: will value, why do you say where it's going?
12:55
Speaker 3: Because I think even as we see the I think
13:00
Speaker 3: that the cultural power of the Kardashians is waning. I
13:04
Speaker 3: actually would argue that I would make a video about that,
13:08
Speaker 3: but I think that the fact that it's waning says
13:12
Speaker 3: things about where are culture is going interesting.
13:16
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to come back to that at the
13:18
Speaker 1: end when we talk about how they're now using their children.
13:22
Speaker 2: Before we get into that, you were talking.
13:24
Speaker 1: About their value system and the way they spend money,
13:27
Speaker 1: and you said it's the fall of Western society because
13:30
Speaker 1: it's never enough, and you were kind of talking about
13:34
Speaker 1: Kim's recent cryptocurrency.
13:36
Speaker 2: I guess it's a scam.
13:37
Speaker 1: Really, she promoted something on Instagram and then got fined. Okay,
13:43
Speaker 1: when you say it's never enough, is it the cars,
13:46
Speaker 1: the clothes?
13:47
Speaker 2: What are you thinking about?
13:49
Speaker 3: Okay, I have to acknowledge, you know, as a pop
13:52
Speaker 3: culture commentator, as an Internet person, I do believe in
13:56
Speaker 3: HYPERBOLEI for a fact. So no, I not explicitly literally
14:03
Speaker 3: saying that the Kardashians are leading to the fall of
14:06
Speaker 3: Western society. But I absolutely believe that the ethos that
14:09
Speaker 3: they embody, that they participate in, that they extol this
14:13
Speaker 3: idea of yet as much as possible, make as much
14:18
Speaker 3: money as possible, never turn anything down, promote anything if
14:22
Speaker 3: somebody is willing to write you a check. I think
14:24
Speaker 3: that that is so harmful. And I think now that
14:27
Speaker 3: we are having more conversations about the politics of consumption
14:31
Speaker 3: and over consumption and who was primarily responsible, who is
14:35
Speaker 3: guiding that over consumption, and who was encouraging that. I
14:39
Speaker 3: think we are starting to look at what the Kardashians
14:42
Speaker 3: have built their empire on differently, and so whereas maybe
14:47
Speaker 3: five years ago, in the peak Girl Boss Sarah, we're
14:50
Speaker 3: looking at Kim being a multi billionaire and accepting two
14:54
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand dollars for this ridiculous cryptocurrency.
14:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, do get it, what you know whatever.
15:01
Speaker 3: Now we can look and be like, are you serious?
15:04
Speaker 4: Really? Like, well, it.
15:06
Speaker 1: Even makes less sense to me now because earlier on
15:10
Speaker 1: I don't think it's excusable in any way that she
15:13
Speaker 1: promoted diet pills that I don't think she herself was taking.
15:18
Speaker 1: But I could sort of make the argument for her
15:22
Speaker 1: that she was trying to get somewhere and get something
15:24
Speaker 1: that she didn't have. She was coming from a place
15:26
Speaker 1: of lack. Now her like Skims, is in the conversation
15:31
Speaker 1: when you talk about stocks, it's in the conversation with
15:33
Speaker 1: like Apple.
15:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, why do you.
15:37
Speaker 2: Need to promote the cryptocurrency?
15:39
Speaker 4: One hundred percent? One hundred percent? I believe that.
15:42
Speaker 3: And you know, recently Kanye and is going off whatever
15:46
Speaker 3: he's saying. He said that Kim owns five percent of Easy,
15:49
Speaker 3: that's also a multi billion dollar brand.
15:52
Speaker 4: Something is wrong with you. You're fine, You're okay.
15:56
Speaker 3: You don't need this money, so you can generally and
16:00
Speaker 3: I think you made a really great point. Now that
16:02
Speaker 3: I am more comfortable financially than I was five years
16:06
Speaker 3: ago or ten years ago, I make different choices about
16:09
Speaker 3: my career. I spend my time differently. I really don't
16:14
Speaker 3: even do a lot of ads or spawn con or
16:16
Speaker 3: brand dealer because I don't like to go back and
16:18
Speaker 3: forth and brands. I don't like them being able to
16:21
Speaker 3: green light whether or not a video goes up. Because
16:25
Speaker 3: my time is my most valuable asset. My integrity is
16:30
Speaker 3: really important to me, Like those things matter to me
16:32
Speaker 3: before money. And so it's very strange to me to
16:35
Speaker 3: see people where the money is the most important thing.
16:40
Speaker 2: Now.
16:40
Speaker 1: I think people that disagree with us in this argument
16:43
Speaker 1: will say, is any of this envy or jealousy?
16:47
Speaker 2: What do you say to those people.
16:49
Speaker 3: I am jealous of people who will never ever, ever
16:55
Speaker 3: again in their lives ever have to worry about the
16:58
Speaker 3: well being of themselves or anyone in their family, or
17:04
Speaker 3: anyone that they.
17:04
Speaker 4: Love or care for. I am jealous of that, for sure.
17:09
Speaker 3: But also I recognize that it's not just about Kim Kardashian, right, Like,
17:18
Speaker 3: we are making these arguments about this particular person, and
17:22
Speaker 3: that's for me, the beauty of cultural commentary. We are
17:26
Speaker 3: talking about a specific person, a specific case, but we're
17:31
Speaker 3: actually talking about larger trends, macro trends, macro ideologies that
17:36
Speaker 3: are ultimately really harmful. I think jealousy is an unuseful
17:43
Speaker 3: smoke screen, because, yeah, who wouldn't want to You know,
17:48
Speaker 3: I don't aspire to have a billion dollars. I'm gonna say,
17:50
Speaker 3: actually wouldn't want to have a billion dollars because I
17:52
Speaker 3: have a full morally bad about that. But I think
17:55
Speaker 3: that the ease is what sparks jealousy. But also there's
18:01
Speaker 3: all of this other stuff like that does not negate
18:04
Speaker 3: the validity of the critique.
18:06
Speaker 1: You know, yes, part of my life's purpose is to
18:13
Speaker 1: help share women's stories. Did you know that researchers estimate
18:17
Speaker 1: women's stories make up zero point five percent of recorded history.
18:22
Speaker 1: I'm trying to change that. It's one of the reasons
18:25
Speaker 1: I created Pretty Smart. Each week I dig into the hearts,
18:29
Speaker 1: souls and stories of people who put a new spin
18:33
Speaker 1: on pretty When we let someone's story in, it changes
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Speaker 1: telling your own story, a brand story, or your community story,
19:31
Speaker 1: get started with squarespace, What do you think about sort
19:38
Speaker 1: of this like luxury aesthetic culture that they represent. I
19:42
Speaker 1: remember watching their show and it's just cars on top
19:46
Speaker 1: of cars that are like all.
19:48
Speaker 2: Painted pink and Matt black.
19:49
Speaker 1: Like everything is unique, right, just the most of everything
19:55
Speaker 1: that to me felt not as much now, but several
19:59
Speaker 1: years Scho felt very representative of American culture.
20:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that the pandemic has shifted some things.
20:08
Speaker 3: The pandemic has shifted some discourse, for surely. I don't
20:13
Speaker 3: know if you watched their show for real, but maybe
20:18
Speaker 3: the first season. I don't know. We're already on the
20:20
Speaker 3: second season where Kim was talking about her new private
20:24
Speaker 3: plane and there's like a big chunk of one of
20:28
Speaker 3: the episodes that was just about a private plane, and
20:31
Speaker 3: I just I was like, this is so boring, Like
20:35
Speaker 3: this there is not even good TV. It's just the
20:40
Speaker 3: wealth porn part of it is just not compelling. At
20:43
Speaker 3: this point, we've seen it over and over again. But also,
20:47
Speaker 3: I don't know, I hesitate to say a post pandemic
20:50
Speaker 3: world because so many people are still living with it.
20:53
Speaker 3: But I think that in post twenty twenty people are
21:00
Speaker 3: more apt to think critically about it, like this is.
21:07
Speaker 4: It's not fun.
21:08
Speaker 3: I don't want to live vicariously through you and this
21:12
Speaker 3: carbon emission like emitting vehicle that you don't need. Like
21:17
Speaker 3: it's just not the joy that we used to get
21:20
Speaker 3: from it. The fun, the pleasure for me is just
21:23
Speaker 3: not there.
21:24
Speaker 1: I think social media has changed that a little bit too,
21:27
Speaker 1: because we've been we've been able to be voy years
21:30
Speaker 1: into other people's lives. So like you were saying, like
21:33
Speaker 1: we've seen the private plane, whereas years ago maybe we
21:36
Speaker 1: hadn't seen a private plane.
21:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, and that's that's hurting the Kardashians a lot, right,
21:44
Speaker 3: the novelty is gone, you see it.
21:47
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about beauty.
21:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, love it my favorite things.
21:51
Speaker 1: So you and I like really agree on something I
21:54
Speaker 1: heard you say in the video. Beauty is a bad investment.
21:57
Speaker 1: Make sure you have a backup plan. It's disposed because
22:00
Speaker 1: it's not in your control. It's also fully like a
22:05
Speaker 1: in the male gaze, it's in a man's control. And
22:07
Speaker 1: like you're an object of desire. The Kardashians more than
22:11
Speaker 1: almost anybody that I can point to represent this object
22:16
Speaker 1: of desire. Yeah, when we talk about beauty, standards. What
22:24
Speaker 1: size effect do you think they've had on American beauty standards?
22:29
Speaker 4: A huge effect.
22:30
Speaker 3: The Kardashian Jenner's collectively for Talking cam On down to
22:35
Speaker 3: Kylie Huge.
22:37
Speaker 1: Recently read an article that there's this drug ozempic. A
22:41
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal came out with an article about it.
22:44
Speaker 1: It's a diabetes medication, and it's been rumored that Chloe
22:49
Speaker 1: and Kim are taking it, which is part of how
22:52
Speaker 1: they've recently slimmed down a lot. I find it so
22:56
Speaker 1: fascinating that one of the things I used to find
23:00
Speaker 1: positive about the Kardashians is that they really made a
23:05
Speaker 1: curvier body desirable. And I don't know what you felt,
23:10
Speaker 1: but when I was growing up, like it was like
23:12
Speaker 1: Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie were on the cover of
23:14
Speaker 1: every magazine and that to me, I think I probably
23:20
Speaker 1: it definitely played into an eating disorder. Yeah, I find
23:24
Speaker 1: it fascinating that they helped make a curvier body desirable,
23:28
Speaker 1: which I think, outside of some of the race things,
23:33
Speaker 1: was a net positive for women.
23:36
Speaker 2: Okay, and now they're not.
23:38
Speaker 1: Now there's trying to be skinny again and they're like
23:40
Speaker 1: really playing into whiteness.
23:42
Speaker 2: Go ahead, you're telling me about.
23:43
Speaker 3: Okay, I, oh, this is so complex. This is why
23:47
Speaker 3: I have so complex. I have to completely reject binary thinking,
23:50
Speaker 3: right because I think that there is something as a
23:54
Speaker 3: black woman who has been curvy since I hit puberty.
24:00
Speaker 3: I remember the late nineties early two thousands so clearly,
24:06
Speaker 3: and as a pop culture girl, as a pop culture junkie,
24:08
Speaker 3: reality TV junkie, I remember the impressions that were left
24:14
Speaker 3: upon my psyche so clearly of you are fat, you
24:17
Speaker 3: need to lose weight, your thighs jiggle, you have a butt.
24:21
Speaker 4: And I also.
24:23
Speaker 3: Remember that's why I gravitated initially to Jennifer Lopez, That's
24:27
Speaker 3: why I gravitated to like a Beyonce, because those were
24:31
Speaker 3: the people who were in the mainstream of pop culture,
24:36
Speaker 3: incredibly successful, celebrated as beautiful, who had curvier bodies. Kim
24:42
Speaker 3: Kardashian comes mid twenty two thousand and five, two thousand
24:46
Speaker 3: and six, two thousand and seven ish, and she brings
24:50
Speaker 3: that message to white folks. Like when we're talking about
24:56
Speaker 3: how she is changing the ideal, she's changing it for
25:02
Speaker 3: white people. Because I also have to acknowledge that when
25:07
Speaker 3: I was in black spaces, my curvier body was I
25:12
Speaker 3: don't want to celebrate it also, you know, objectified, but
25:15
Speaker 3: it was a good thing to have always, always or
25:18
Speaker 3: plays always always having a certain kind of body I
25:23
Speaker 3: always knew was desirable among black people, always especially I'm
25:27
Speaker 3: a petite woman with a big butt, always a thing.
25:31
Speaker 3: It was when I would go into white spaces growing
25:34
Speaker 3: up and going to predominantly white schools or whatever in
25:38
Speaker 3: extracurriculars in summer camps, that is when I was most
25:42
Speaker 3: conscious that my body was different and that I was
25:47
Speaker 3: a spectacle basically. And so I think it is correct
25:52
Speaker 3: that for mainstream America, read white America, Kim Kardashian ushered
25:58
Speaker 3: in a new kind of desirability, a new kind of sexiness,
26:03
Speaker 3: an opportunity for women who had been told I remember
26:08
Speaker 3: one of my first jobs. My manager was a white woman,
26:10
Speaker 3: and she said, you can.
26:12
Speaker 4: Never be too thin.
26:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no such thing as.
26:15
Speaker 3: Too and I remember thinking, okay, And I think that
26:19
Speaker 3: her challenging that for that segment of the population is
26:24
Speaker 3: really really important. On the other hand, if you bring
26:29
Speaker 3: up Kim Kardashian in a room of women of color,
26:32
Speaker 3: or in particular black women, there is a lot of
26:36
Speaker 3: resentment because so many black women feel like, WHOA, We've
26:40
Speaker 3: had these bodies forever, because you know, Kim one born
26:43
Speaker 3: with that bun, and we're saying, we've had these bodies forever.
26:48
Speaker 3: And when we were in majority spaces, we were called out,
26:55
Speaker 3: we were spectacles, we were made fun of, we were
26:58
Speaker 3: made to feel undesirable and try and all of a sudden,
27:01
Speaker 3: this person who has a different kind of hair and
27:04
Speaker 3: different facial features and white skin, all of a sudden
27:07
Speaker 3: she doesn't and y'all gravity to a y'all embrace it.
27:10
Speaker 3: She's liberating you. Those are the dueling ideas that I'm
27:15
Speaker 3: trying to reconcile here what she represents for a certain
27:18
Speaker 3: kind a certain population and what she represents for another
27:22
Speaker 3: kind of population. But I can absolutely agree with you
27:25
Speaker 3: that for the majority of people she ushered in a
27:27
Speaker 3: different kind of beauty standard via her body.
27:30
Speaker 1: I think you bring up something like, it's critical when
27:34
Speaker 1: you talk about Kim in particular, is that she adopted
27:38
Speaker 1: a lot of black aesthetics without having to live the
27:40
Speaker 1: black experience, and so she always comes back to the
27:43
Speaker 1: safety of whiteness. Yeah, every single time. Actually, a lot
27:47
Speaker 1: of their family does. And so in particular, I saw
27:50
Speaker 1: this video. This is the one the video that actually
27:53
Speaker 1: reached out to you about because you were talking about
27:55
Speaker 1: their bodies. So can you elaborate on sort of this
27:59
Speaker 1: idea of coming back to whiteness in regards to their bodies.
28:03
Speaker 3: Before I get into what I'm going to say, every
28:05
Speaker 3: black woman is not born with the big butt in
28:08
Speaker 3: big hips, and every white woman is not stick thin,
28:13
Speaker 3: and that is not their ideal. But when I talk
28:17
Speaker 3: about the cognitive dissonance that I experienced growing up of
28:23
Speaker 3: having this kind of body and being and predominantly Black
28:27
Speaker 3: spaces and having it be celebrated and desirable, and having
28:30
Speaker 3: the voice come up to me and then going into
28:33
Speaker 3: a predominantly white space and having people say, oh, ghetto booty,
28:37
Speaker 3: and okay, you know, like I am talking about what
28:42
Speaker 3: people put on a pedestal and the consequences for me
28:47
Speaker 3: not only psychologically, but like, the consequences are far reaching, right,
28:54
Speaker 3: And so with the Kardashians, we saw them really come
28:59
Speaker 3: up yah altering their bodies to appeal to black men, right,
29:07
Speaker 3: altering their bodies to have the curveness that is the
29:11
Speaker 3: ideal in black communities and not just black communities, people
29:16
Speaker 3: of color communities. Latinas have said, we love that too,
29:21
Speaker 3: that because the line was shorter. If we're talking about
29:25
Speaker 3: the way to get to the top of the desirability hierarchy.
29:31
Speaker 2: Wow.
29:32
Speaker 3: I think that for Kim Kardashian, people say, people try
29:37
Speaker 3: to say that that woman is not smart. I think
29:38
Speaker 3: that that woman knows exactly what she's doing. She's incredibly strategic,
29:43
Speaker 3: and for her, she had a much better and easier
29:48
Speaker 3: chance of getting to the top of the desirability pyramid, hierarchy,
29:53
Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it by appealing to racialized
29:56
Speaker 3: communities than she did by trying to conform to whiteness.
30:00
Speaker 1: Wow. Because she is ethnically ambiguous, right like when you
30:03
Speaker 1: look at her, so she felt like it was easier.
30:08
Speaker 3: And even her surgically unaltered body is a little is
30:11
Speaker 3: it's curvier, you know, even her.
30:13
Speaker 2: Facial features are objectively ambiguous.
30:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, put Kim next to
30:19
Speaker 3: Paris Hilton right there. They're not the same body type,
30:21
Speaker 3: absolutely right. They don't have the same aesthetic for sure,
30:25
Speaker 3: And so I think that she figured out how to
30:28
Speaker 3: get the most.
30:30
Speaker 1: The whole family sort of embraces this tension, right So,
30:38
Speaker 1: right now, Chloe and Kim have lost a lot of weight. Yeah,
30:43
Speaker 1: And it's sort of fascinating to me because living in La,
30:47
Speaker 1: I think sort of beauty standards hit La first, even
30:51
Speaker 1: more so than New York, and then dispersed. So like
30:54
Speaker 1: I am at the and I live in West Hollywood,
30:56
Speaker 1: I work in entertainment, I am at the epicenter of
30:58
Speaker 1: all of this, and I hear that it like I
31:00
Speaker 1: knew about the ozempic thing three months ago, they purposely
31:05
Speaker 1: changed their bodies.
31:07
Speaker 2: What was their purpose?
31:09
Speaker 3: My hypothesis, of course they don't know or speak to
31:13
Speaker 3: these people, is they're undergoing a transition in career, in
31:22
Speaker 3: personal life, and the next phase of their lives required
31:28
Speaker 3: them to appeal to different groups to be able to
31:33
Speaker 3: move more easily into different spaces and leave the old
31:39
Speaker 3: spaces and the old appeals behind. And so we see
31:43
Speaker 3: Kim Kardashian in particular, this transition into she just started
31:48
Speaker 3: or co founded this private equity fund and now she's
31:51
Speaker 3: the multi billionaire with skims, and she's getting more into
31:56
Speaker 3: the political arena and activism in order to be taken
32:00
Speaker 3: more seriously as all of those things.
32:03
Speaker 4: And as a mother of.
32:04
Speaker 3: Four, it makes perfect sense to me that you want
32:07
Speaker 3: to tap back into the whiteness, to tap back into
32:10
Speaker 3: the white male gaze in particular, because that is deemed
32:14
Speaker 3: more legitimate, and that's how that's how you can make
32:17
Speaker 3: more money, that's how you get more power.
32:20
Speaker 2: She wants to be taken seriously in these faces. Yeah,
32:23
Speaker 2: what about Chloe.
32:24
Speaker 3: Chloe is a more complicated figure for me because of
32:29
Speaker 3: her transition, because of her starting off being the quote
32:34
Speaker 3: unquote fat sister, and we've seen her struggle with her
32:38
Speaker 3: body image and her facial transformations and all of that.
32:44
Speaker 3: I think, I don't know. For me, Chloe, this seems
32:47
Speaker 3: like a trauma response. Not that I, you know, I'm
32:49
Speaker 3: not anybody's therapist.
32:51
Speaker 1: I don't know.
32:53
Speaker 4: I don't know.
32:54
Speaker 3: But she's been through a lot, and especially in watching
32:58
Speaker 3: the first episode because I had a stop because I
33:01
Speaker 3: think that the show is boring. Now the first episode
33:03
Speaker 3: of the second season of the Kardashians, and that trauma
33:07
Speaker 3: and it comes up. The body stuff for her comes up,
33:10
Speaker 3: and Kim says, the sisters are worried because you're looking thin,
33:16
Speaker 3: and Chloe almost The big meme on social media was
33:20
Speaker 3: that she was almost flattered, like really, but it was
33:24
Speaker 3: really clear then that because she was experiencing so much
33:28
Speaker 3: emotional trauma and turmoil because of all of that stuff,
33:33
Speaker 3: that she just was not taking care of herself. And
33:36
Speaker 3: I also think it, in addition to the trauma part
33:41
Speaker 3: of it, that also helps her transition into a new lane,
33:46
Speaker 3: a new cycle in her professional life and potentially a
33:50
Speaker 3: new part of her personal life.
33:55
Speaker 1: Okay, on the topic of dating, we all know someone
33:58
Speaker 1: who has met their person on Match, And if you
34:00
Speaker 1: haven't met yours.
34:01
Speaker 2: Yet, consider this.
34:03
Speaker 1: Match believes the most important relationship is with yourself. Match's
34:08
Speaker 1: latest study of over five thousand US singles says there's
34:11
Speaker 1: a new triple threat on the dating horizon therapy, self care,
34:15
Speaker 1: and emotional maturity. Uh how amazing is that finding? Can
34:20
Speaker 1: we say that again? Therapy, self care, and emotional maturity.
34:24
Speaker 1: It seems like people who sign up for Match are
34:26
Speaker 1: whole bringing their full selves to the table. You Know,
34:29
Speaker 1: when I talk to successful couples, they often say it's
34:32
Speaker 1: all about knowing yourself first and matching with people who
34:35
Speaker 1: know themselves too. That's where the magic is and that's
34:39
Speaker 1: where Match comes in. They believe that in a world
34:42
Speaker 1: where you can choose to do anything or be with anybody,
34:45
Speaker 1: choose you first, and the rest will fall into place,
34:49
Speaker 1: because the best relationships show up when we show up
34:52
Speaker 1: for ourselves first. There's never been a better time to
34:55
Speaker 1: try match download the match app today. So there is
35:02
Speaker 1: this idea of the business of being famous, right, like
35:07
Speaker 1: I think we people don't think about fame in that way.
35:11
Speaker 1: But for instance, Jennifer Lopez is amazing at being famous.
35:16
Speaker 1: Love her, but she's really smart about fame. She knows
35:21
Speaker 1: how to stay in the public eye. She knows the
35:24
Speaker 1: news cycles.
35:24
Speaker 4: Hmm.
35:26
Speaker 1: What do you say to people that say, well, the
35:28
Speaker 1: Kardashians have just optimized the business of being famous.
35:33
Speaker 3: I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I don't think that
35:38
Speaker 3: they lucked into this. I don't. I think that there
35:43
Speaker 3: is so much carefully orchestrated and meticulously analyzed all of
35:54
Speaker 3: these moves. When people talk about the devil works harder
35:57
Speaker 3: but Chris Jenner works harder, I think that they're getting
36:01
Speaker 3: to this idea that the way that these women are
36:04
Speaker 3: coming together to coordinate their businesses and public images and
36:08
Speaker 3: the messaging around and the narrative building, the myth making
36:12
Speaker 3: around the Kardashian genera.
36:13
Speaker 4: Like that is a plus. Also, I give.
36:18
Speaker 3: Them and Kim in particular credit for revolutionizing innovating the
36:24
Speaker 3: way that celebrities use social media. That is the way
36:29
Speaker 3: that she's used initially her Twitter in Instagram. We see
36:33
Speaker 3: that being the blueprint for now a list celebrities doing
36:37
Speaker 3: that stuff. Like, I do not take that away from them.
36:42
Speaker 3: But also, you can be really quote unquote smart and
36:49
Speaker 3: strategic in your moves and know that you are exploiting
36:55
Speaker 3: marginalization and know that you are exploiting and and maybe
37:01
Speaker 3: not even accidentally being actually really intentional about who are
37:06
Speaker 3: you going to step on, who are you going to erase?
37:08
Speaker 3: Who are you going to ignore so that they can
37:12
Speaker 3: be at the top financially at the center of all
37:18
Speaker 3: of our cultural commentary in all of this fracas and
37:23
Speaker 3: all of this. I just think that they get who's
37:27
Speaker 3: left behind.
37:29
Speaker 1: You touched on something that I have a hard time articulating,
37:33
Speaker 1: because when I sort of explain to people that I
37:35
Speaker 1: am not a big fan of them, they're like, well,
37:38
Speaker 1: how do you deny her business acumen?
37:40
Speaker 2: How about the fact.
37:41
Speaker 1: That she's helping these people get out of prison now,
37:44
Speaker 1: and she's into criminal justice and reform.
37:47
Speaker 2: And both of those things are true.
37:51
Speaker 1: I'm not denying either of those, but to me, it
37:53
Speaker 1: doesn't make up for everything else we discussed. When you
37:58
Speaker 1: think about how she has sort of exploited and used
38:02
Speaker 1: race to her advantage, how do you think about her
38:05
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform endeavors now?
38:08
Speaker 3: I think Kim Kardashian should spend way more time uplifting
38:16
Speaker 3: the predominantly black women attorneys who are doing the bulk
38:21
Speaker 3: of this work, and less time trying to put herself
38:25
Speaker 3: at the center of these conversations. I Am not going
38:29
Speaker 3: to say it doesn't matter that she herself traveled to
38:32
Speaker 3: the White House to get President Trump to exonerate these
38:37
Speaker 3: I'm sure that their families are internally grateful, I get it.
38:42
Speaker 3: But I think that the real work, and the more
38:45
Speaker 3: important work, is investing in lifting up centering the people
38:51
Speaker 3: who have spent years doing this and not making a
38:56
Speaker 3: you know, she had a little reality TV show about
38:58
Speaker 3: her thing, you know, and it's like no, no, no,
39:01
Speaker 3: because ultimately all of that is self serving. Ultimately we
39:06
Speaker 3: cannot ignore how Kim even deciding to make this criminal
39:12
Speaker 3: justice turn, this criminal prison policy reform turn, how that
39:17
Speaker 3: ultimately bolsters her personal brand and increases her net worth.
39:22
Speaker 2: Do you think there will be a Kardashian backlash? Have
39:25
Speaker 2: we seen it yet?
39:26
Speaker 4: Oof? A backlash? I don't think so. I think we
39:31
Speaker 4: see hints of it. I'm trying it.
39:34
Speaker 3: It was the last Oh you know, when the get
39:37
Speaker 3: your fucking ass up and work, you know how we
39:40
Speaker 3: see hints of it. But a full blown backlash, I
39:45
Speaker 3: don't think so. I think when I talk about the
39:48
Speaker 3: Kardashians as an American institution, a part of that is
39:53
Speaker 3: also I think they're too big to fail.
39:55
Speaker 1: Now I do too. I think that's actually where their
39:58
Speaker 1: children come in. I've always looked at pop culture like
40:01
Speaker 1: groups of people succeed.
40:03
Speaker 2: People love a group, they love a group of friends.
40:06
Speaker 1: I think part of their success has been the sheer
40:08
Speaker 1: number of them, And now they all have children. I
40:11
Speaker 1: saw you talk about how Kim brings North to these
40:14
Speaker 1: fashion shows, and you made a funny I'll just let
40:18
Speaker 1: you tell it, but you made a funny comparison about
40:20
Speaker 1: how your mom took you to a concert.
40:22
Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
40:23
Speaker 3: I mean I am trying to be careful about the
40:27
Speaker 3: way that I invoke the Kardashian kids because these are super,
40:31
Speaker 3: super famous people, so no matter what they do, they're
40:34
Speaker 3: going to be photographed, They're going to be scrutinized. They
40:38
Speaker 3: make TV for a living, so there's going to be cameras.
40:41
Speaker 3: But when I felt uncomfortable seeing and when I do
40:47
Speaker 3: still feel uncomfortable seeing Kim's kids in particular front row
40:52
Speaker 3: at these very adult events. That discomfort comes from knowing
40:57
Speaker 3: that every single move that they make, every family outing,
41:02
Speaker 3: every bonding experience that gets made a public event, it's commodity.
41:08
Speaker 3: It's a commodity. It all gets commodified. It all goes
41:12
Speaker 3: back to enriching Kim Kardashian, Inc. Expanding the brand, making
41:19
Speaker 3: sure that we are still talking about them. Maybe I
41:24
Speaker 3: think Kim understands that she's at a point where we're
41:28
Speaker 3: not going to be talking about her in the same way,
41:30
Speaker 3: you know, fawning over her body or beauty or whatever.
41:34
Speaker 3: And a way to make sure that she never leaves
41:38
Speaker 3: the center of our cultural conversations, that she is always
41:41
Speaker 3: in the zeitgeist is to bring the children in. And
41:45
Speaker 3: maybe it's not as explicit in her mind. Maybe that
41:48
Speaker 3: is not those are not the exact connections that they're making,
41:52
Speaker 3: but certainly she sees the outcome, and that's distressing. When
41:56
Speaker 3: I went to a concert or so many concerts growing
41:59
Speaker 3: up with my mom. We just did it for fun, Okay,
42:02
Speaker 3: we just did it for the memories and for bonding
42:06
Speaker 3: and so we can wear our matchin concert t shirts
42:08
Speaker 3: together twenty years later. My mom does not get anything
42:12
Speaker 3: out of it. She's not a brand.
42:14
Speaker 2: You brought up something that I forgot to touch on
42:16
Speaker 2: that they.
42:17
Speaker 1: Sort of like play into all of these racial trophes,
42:22
Speaker 1: even with the men that they love.
42:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I think that the positioning there are
42:35
Speaker 3: very concerted efforts to position themselves as the self sacrificing,
42:45
Speaker 3: you know, completely devoted mothers who always put the family first.
42:52
Speaker 3: There's nothing more important than family. But also we're girl bosses,
42:57
Speaker 3: but also there's nothing more important than family, and these
43:01
Speaker 3: men are distractions. Like we're doing everything that we can
43:07
Speaker 3: to make them act right, make them make the help
43:10
Speaker 3: them make the best choices, to be the best partners
43:14
Speaker 3: wives that we can, to them, girlfriends, whatever that we can,
43:18
Speaker 3: but they just they can't. They refuse And we've done
43:21
Speaker 3: it and you've seen us sacrifice, you've seen us work
43:23
Speaker 3: so hard, and they just will not act right. And
43:27
Speaker 3: of course that does play into old old tropes about
43:32
Speaker 3: aarrant black male sexuality. And of course with Lamar, and
43:39
Speaker 3: we have the professional athlete thing about them being not smart,
43:45
Speaker 3: about them being promiscuous.
43:48
Speaker 4: We have the drug use.
43:49
Speaker 3: Thing with Lamar playing that up, planting stories, juxtaposing the
43:54
Speaker 3: work that they do with the work that the men
43:56
Speaker 3: do or don't do. I think that is very, very intentional.
44:00
Speaker 3: And yeah, plays into some very nasty racial tropes.
44:05
Speaker 1: That really confuses me because they have black children.
44:09
Speaker 2: I mean, it's very bizarre.
44:13
Speaker 4: I feel like they feel like they're above race.
44:16
Speaker 3: Right, Like, yes, they talk about I've definitely heard Chloe
44:23
Speaker 3: in particular and Kim, I've heard them talk about raising
44:27
Speaker 3: black children. And I remember years ago Kim making some
44:31
Speaker 3: note about some racist incident that you experienced, and she
44:35
Speaker 3: cares more because she has black children now.
44:38
Speaker 4: But I also.
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Speaker 3: Think that because wealth, because money is the center of everything,
44:44
Speaker 3: because that is the most important element, it wouldn't surprise
44:47
Speaker 3: me if they understand that they have enough and will
44:52
Speaker 3: always have enough for their children to be able to
44:56
Speaker 3: in some ways transcend the race.
45:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's sad.
45:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, after our conversation, there seems just like a general
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Speaker 1: self center centeredness to all of it.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a self centeredness that tries to mask itself
45:13
Speaker 3: as self communal, right, life, Yes, that's why it's so complicated.
45:21
Speaker 1: I love learning from you, I love laughing with you.
45:23
Speaker 1: If everybody wants to find you, where they Where can
45:26
Speaker 1: they start following?
45:28
Speaker 4: Yeah?
45:28
Speaker 3: I'm on Twitter, way too much goodness and Instagram kimberly
45:33
Speaker 3: in as in Nicole Foster.
45:36
Speaker 2: You are so wonderful. Thank you for your time.
45:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much.
45:40
Speaker 4: This is so fun.
45:47
Speaker 1: I want to thank the people that make the show possible.
45:50
Speaker 1: Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe, and Phil SpeedTech. Okay,
45:55
Speaker 1: you know what time it is. Today's a good day
45:57
Speaker 1: to have a good day. I'll see you an next
46:01
Speaker 1: Step Step Shop