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The Christian Nationalism Behind January 6, with Rep. Jared Huffman · The Oath and The Office

0:10
Speaker 1: Welcome to The Oath in the Office. I'm Cory Bretschneider.
0:14
Speaker 1: My co-host, John Fugel, sangs away. So we have a
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Speaker 1: special edition for you today, an episode with Congressman Jared Huffman.
0:22
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to announce our new sponsor for The
0:25
Speaker 1: Oath in the Office. Their name is inspired by the
0:28
Speaker 1: First Amendment, the idea that we don't have an official
0:33
Speaker 1: or an established religion. So this episode is brought to
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Speaker 1: you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Quick civics question.
0:42
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0:45
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0:50
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1:40
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with Congressman Jared Huffman from California.
1:46
Speaker 1: The congressman has written a really unusual book for a
1:48
Speaker 1: politician in that it's extremely honest. No Profits, which is
1:52
Speaker 1: out with W.W. Norton, really makes the point of trying
1:57
Speaker 1: to talk about a threat to democracy that's not appreciated,
2:01
Speaker 1: a threat that was present in January 6th and in
2:03
Speaker 1: many ways hasn't been reported enough on and in some ways,
2:07
Speaker 1: as you'll hear him talk about, was buried. And that's
2:10
Speaker 1: the threat of Christian nationalism, which, as the congressman and
2:13
Speaker 1: I will talk about, is a kind of movement that
2:16
Speaker 1: isn't just dangerous in terms of the policies that it's recommending,
2:20
Speaker 1: but it really is an anti-democratic movement, a movement of theocracy.
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Speaker 1: The very idea that the First Amendment ban on the
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Speaker 1: establishment of religion was meant to stop. And yet here
2:32
Speaker 1: we are dealing with that threat once again, the threat
2:35
Speaker 1: that the framers imagined. So I hope you enjoy it.
2:39
Speaker 1: This is a discussion with Congressman Jared Huffman of California.
2:47
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure today to introduce Congressman Jared Huffman, who
2:51
Speaker 1: was first elected to Congress in 2012, and he's now
2:55
Speaker 1: serving his seventh term representing California's second congressional district, which
3:00
Speaker 1: is in Northern California. And I'm especially excited because we're
3:04
Speaker 1: going to discuss in depth his book, No Profits, which
3:08
Speaker 1: is about the rise of Christian nationalism and really about
3:12
Speaker 1: how Trumpism is best understood in the light of Christian nationalism. So, Congressman,
3:18
Speaker 1: welcome to The Oath in the Office.
3:19
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Corey.
3:21
Speaker 1: Really looking forward to the conversation. I'd love to. I mean,
3:25
Speaker 1: I should say, you know, it's an honest book, which
3:28
Speaker 1: is not always what you get from politicians who are writing.
3:31
Speaker 1: It's one that doesn't strike me as, you know, just
3:34
Speaker 1: trying to win a popularity contest. You're quite honest about
3:38
Speaker 1: religion in the way that we often don't hear from politicians.
3:41
Speaker 1: That's part of what it's about. And of course, it's
3:43
Speaker 1: also about the current moment, about Trumpism and how to
3:47
Speaker 1: understand it. So I'd like to start with, to my mind,
3:51
Speaker 1: one of the key moments in the history of Trumpism
3:56
Speaker 1: and the history of both white nationalism and Christian nationalism,
4:00
Speaker 1: which is your focus, and that's January 6th. I was
4:02
Speaker 1: really taken by the way that you describe January 6th,
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Speaker 1: not just in personal terms, but in terms of what
4:10
Speaker 1: it teaches us about this movement and this idea of theocracy,
4:15
Speaker 1: related idea of theocracy that you talk about. So take
4:17
Speaker 1: us back to that day. Tell us about it and
4:19
Speaker 1: tell us how it's related to No Profits.
4:22
Speaker 2: Yes, thanks. I actually opened the book with January 6th
4:25
Speaker 2: as I saw it unfold. And it's an appropriate place,
4:29
Speaker 2: I think, to start our conversation about this threat to democracy.
4:34
Speaker 2: And by the way, thank you, Corey, for pointing out
4:36
Speaker 2: that my book is a little different than what you
4:38
Speaker 2: see from other members of Congress. I'm not running for
4:40
Speaker 2: president of the United States, for one thing. But I'm
4:43
Speaker 2: also wading into some, you know, perilous and uncharted waters
4:47
Speaker 2: for Anyone in national politics, most people steer clear of
4:51
Speaker 2: this stuff because it is fraught and it is, you know,
4:55
Speaker 2: a little bit dicey and provocative for many people. We're
4:59
Speaker 2: going to have to get over that and start talking
5:01
Speaker 2: about it. And that is sort of one of my
5:03
Speaker 2: big takeaways. But here's the thing with January 6th. I
5:07
Speaker 2: have watched during my time in Congress, this Christian nationalist
5:10
Speaker 2: movement grow stronger and more militant. And it really did
5:15
Speaker 2: erupt for all of us to see in the January
5:18
Speaker 2: 6th insurrection. It was a religious coup. And the sights
5:23
Speaker 2: and sounds and symbols were everywhere. Scholars of religion were
5:28
Speaker 2: screaming about this, demanding that these religious extremists be held
5:32
Speaker 2: to account. And I really thought it would be the
5:35
Speaker 2: wake-up call we needed to start taking Christian nationalism seriously. Unfortunately,
5:41
Speaker 2: I watched the country just go back to sleep And
5:45
Speaker 2: my own colleagues in Congress who the mob wanted to
5:47
Speaker 2: kill that day didn't see the religious elements to it
5:52
Speaker 2: and kind of went back to sleep as well. There's
5:55
Speaker 2: a little more to the story of why the country
5:59
Speaker 2: wasn't told about the religion that was so central to
6:02
Speaker 2: the insurrection. But that's sort of the basic takeaway is
6:06
Speaker 2: that I see a country that desperately needs a wake
6:09
Speaker 2: up call. And I see this direct threat to our
6:12
Speaker 2: democracy and our basic rights and our freedoms getting stronger
6:16
Speaker 2: and more militant. So I wrote this book to sound
6:18
Speaker 2: the alarm and take folks inside the Capitol to see
6:21
Speaker 2: what I see every day.
6:23
Speaker 1: I mean, tell me more about that and tell the listeners,
6:26
Speaker 1: I mean, why is it that we might, I mean,
6:27
Speaker 1: because I do think that, of course, the January 6th
6:30
Speaker 1: committee and many of us who are focused on January
6:34
Speaker 1: 6th have focused on the anti-democratic aspects, the nationalism, the
6:39
Speaker 1: plot to really, you know, not just, I think sometimes
6:42
Speaker 1: the reporting, you know, focuses on the violence, which was horrific,
6:45
Speaker 1: but of course, more dangerous was the attempted murder. coup
6:48
Speaker 1: to try to deny certification of electoral votes in order
6:52
Speaker 1: to throw things to the House of Representatives that John
6:55
Speaker 1: Eastman and others had hatched. But what I think really
6:58
Speaker 1: is new, there's a lot new in the book, is
7:00
Speaker 1: the idea that among the different anti-democratic forces, that a
7:05
Speaker 1: prominent one was Christian nationalism in particular. So, I mean,
7:09
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, one thing you do so
7:11
Speaker 1: well in the book, I spoke to David French about
7:13
Speaker 1: the different coalition of the new right and how it
7:17
Speaker 1: includes Christian nationalism, white nationalism and other groups involved. But
7:21
Speaker 1: you really do a great job, I think, of pulling
7:24
Speaker 1: out in depth, you know, who these groups are. And
7:27
Speaker 1: so I want to ask you about that. But first,
7:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a preliminary question, which is
7:31
Speaker 1: just to elaborate on that point. Like, why don't we
7:33
Speaker 1: know more about this? What's the incentive or reason for
7:36
Speaker 1: why it's been hidden?
7:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. So you mentioned Eastman. We think of Eastman, Giuliani,
7:43
Speaker 2: these folks that were at the War Room and the
7:45
Speaker 2: Willard Hotel. very much kind of plotting out the attempt
7:49
Speaker 2: to stop the certification of Joe Biden's victory. What we
7:54
Speaker 2: didn't get to learn about is the fact that all
7:57
Speaker 2: of these extreme faith leaders, these self-declared prophets and apostles
8:02
Speaker 2: that I write about in the book, were at the
8:04
Speaker 2: Willard Hotel too. And were in the White House days
8:08
Speaker 2: before the insurrection and had been enlisted by the Trump
8:12
Speaker 2: campaign to basically... radicalize and mobilize these religious shock troops
8:18
Speaker 2: for January 6th. They were a huge part of what
8:21
Speaker 2: happened that day. And we didn't learn about it because
8:25
Speaker 2: in the final days of the Select Committee preparing its
8:29
Speaker 2: 845-page report that was, you know, supposed to be the
8:33
Speaker 2: full picture of what happened, who did this, who should
8:37
Speaker 2: be held to account, one member of the Select Committee
8:40
Speaker 2: vetoed any reference to Christian nationalism in that report. And
8:45
Speaker 2: that was Liz Cheney. The other members of the committee
8:48
Speaker 2: wanted it in. The staff had written it up as
8:50
Speaker 2: a very central part of the right-wing extremist groups that
8:55
Speaker 2: fueled the insurrection. But Liz Cheney did not want to
8:58
Speaker 2: offend conservative Christians. And so, you know, I think we
9:02
Speaker 2: praise Liz Cheney for lots of things. She was one
9:04
Speaker 2: of the few Republicans at that time that actually did
9:07
Speaker 2: stand up to Donald Trump. I will give her credit
9:09
Speaker 2: for that. But she did a great disservice to the
9:12
Speaker 2: country by erasing that, by censoring that in a way
9:17
Speaker 2: that allowed these folks to escape accountability. And as a result,
9:22
Speaker 2: they have grown stronger and more dangerous since then. And
9:26
Speaker 2: we are less safe because of that.
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Speaker 1: And what is it you think that was motivating that
9:31
Speaker 1: urge to suppress this really important part of the story?
9:35
Speaker 1: Is it that there's a risk that if you criticize
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Speaker 1: Christian nationalism, you'll be seen as criticizing Christianity. Is it
9:41
Speaker 1: a deeper worry that her father is, you know, and
9:45
Speaker 1: if you go back, the Republican Party more generally has
9:48
Speaker 1: a longstanding relationship, at least, let's say, with Christian nationalism?
9:53
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I don't know that we can know
9:55
Speaker 2: for sure. But from my observation, it seems like two
9:59
Speaker 2: things to me. It seems like, number one, she wanted
10:02
Speaker 2: the onus on Donald Trump. And anything that complicated the
10:07
Speaker 2: narrative that Trump was sort of singularly responsible for the
10:10
Speaker 2: insurrection was frustrating to her. I also think she had
10:16
Speaker 2: ambition to run for president at that time. And she
10:19
Speaker 2: understood that you don't win votes in a Republican primary
10:24
Speaker 2: by picking a fight with right-wing Christians. So I think
10:28
Speaker 2: she was very nervous about how that would be portrayed
10:32
Speaker 2: on Fox News in her attempt to seek the presidency. So,
10:37
Speaker 2: you know, I can't say for sure that that was
10:40
Speaker 2: her calculus, but for whatever reason... She singled this out.
10:44
Speaker 2: She was fine with the report talking about the Proud
10:47
Speaker 2: Boys and Roger Stone and Eastman and all of these
10:50
Speaker 2: other extremists. But she absolutely put her foot down and said,
10:54
Speaker 2: we're not talking about Christian nationalism.
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Speaker 1: Fascinating. I mean, I guess, too, as much as I agree,
11:00
Speaker 1: I think we both agree with Congresswoman Cheney about the
11:05
Speaker 1: idea that this president is different. There really is a
11:08
Speaker 1: sort of attack on democracy that is distinct from Bush Jr.
11:12
Speaker 1: or senior or Ronald Reagan. We could go back. But
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Speaker 1: yet the Christian nationalist element is not brand new. And
11:20
Speaker 1: that's part of what you talk about so importantly in
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Speaker 1: the book. So tell us more about, you know, one
11:25
Speaker 1: thing I really appreciated is, of course, there's the danger
11:27
Speaker 1: of theocracy. We hear this phrase and these ideas, but
11:30
Speaker 1: you really get into the details. of who these actual
11:33
Speaker 1: people are as political actors. And I appreciate that you
11:36
Speaker 1: named their specific role in January 6th. So tell us,
11:40
Speaker 1: I mean, who are they? I feel like with David
11:42
Speaker 1: French and I, we got a nice map, I think,
11:46
Speaker 1: of the new right. But what we didn't do is
11:48
Speaker 1: go internally within Christian nationalism in the way that you do.
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Speaker 1: So who are these people?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's be very clear. Theocracy is the right word.
11:57
Speaker 2: I think some people often wonder, well, is it really theocracy?
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Speaker 2: Do they really want a theocracy? Because theocracy is pretty
12:03
Speaker 2: extreme stuff, right? We think of it as unthinkable, really,
12:07
Speaker 2: in the United States of America. So let me start there.
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Speaker 2: They really do want a theocracy. This is not hyperbole.
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Speaker 2: This is the endgame. And I spend some time in
12:20
Speaker 2: the book showing you their own words and their own
12:23
Speaker 2: belief systems that compel them as their religious duty to
12:28
Speaker 2: impose a theocracy, not to persuade people. through the democratic process.
12:33
Speaker 2: They're done with that. They abandoned working within the system
12:37
Speaker 2: of democracy after they lost the culture war of the 1980s.
12:40
Speaker 2: They have resolved to dismantle democracy, starting with church-state separation,
12:46
Speaker 2: which absolutely stands in their way. But they're on a
12:50
Speaker 2: collision course with pluralism and secular democracy in a huge way.
12:55
Speaker 2: And there are three ascendant religious subcultures within this mega-Christian
13:00
Speaker 2: nationalist movement that we need to understand. And so I do,
13:05
Speaker 2: with the help of some serious religion experts, take folks
13:09
Speaker 2: through the belief systems, rejected by most Christians, by the way.
13:12
Speaker 2: I got to make that loud and clear. This is
13:14
Speaker 2: extreme stuff. Most Christians want no part of it. But
13:18
Speaker 2: it's known as dominion theology. And there are three sub-factions
13:23
Speaker 2: that are slightly different. So the most dominant is this
13:27
Speaker 2: independent charismatic evangelical group. led by this cohort of self-declared
13:32
Speaker 2: prophets and apostles known as the New Apostolic Reformation. They
13:36
Speaker 2: were hugely involved in the January 6th insurrection. They have
13:42
Speaker 2: a dominion theology known as Seven Mountains Dominion that requires
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Speaker 2: them as a religious duty to conquer all aspects of society,
13:51
Speaker 2: including government and business and the arts and everything else
13:56
Speaker 2: for Christian hegemony, essentially. The other one you can think
14:00
Speaker 2: of as Pete Hegseth's group. So this is known as
14:03
Speaker 2: the Theo Bros, also Protestant, but not charismatic evangelicals. They
14:09
Speaker 2: call themselves Reformed Evangelicals, but Theo Bros is a pretty
14:13
Speaker 2: good name for this group. The leader of the movement
14:17
Speaker 2: is an extreme pastor named Doug Wilson from Idaho who
14:21
Speaker 2: has made news recently. He likes to go on TV.
14:24
Speaker 2: He likes to sort of put a happy face on
14:26
Speaker 2: this really radical extremism. where they believe that the 19th
14:31
Speaker 2: Amendment was a mistake, that women should not have the
14:34
Speaker 2: right to vote, that only Christians should hold public office.
14:38
Speaker 2: Doug Wilson will tell you, oh, it's not theocracy that
14:41
Speaker 2: I want, it's theonomy. He will split hairs and kind
14:45
Speaker 2: of talk in this high-minded, sarcastic way. But it's Old
14:51
Speaker 2: Testament biblical law pushed into our government, an amended constitution
14:56
Speaker 2: that includes the Apostles' Creed. as black letter law. So
15:01
Speaker 2: it's theocracy by any other word. And then the third
15:05
Speaker 2: are the radical traditionalist Catholics. Again, a small fraction of
15:09
Speaker 2: American Catholics who mostly reject this intense Catholic integralism that
15:15
Speaker 2: is their version of dominion theology. But you can think
15:19
Speaker 2: of folks like Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens as pretty
15:22
Speaker 2: good examples of this very bigoted extremism that is its
15:28
Speaker 2: own theocratic agenda.
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Speaker 1: Okay, we need to take a quick break. When we
15:33
Speaker 1: come back, we'll have more with Congressman Jared Huffman on
15:37
Speaker 1: the oath in the office. This episode is brought to
15:42
Speaker 1: you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. We talk every
15:46
Speaker 1: week about the oath, the promise to preserve, protect, and
15:49
Speaker 1: defend the Constitution. So here's the church-state version of that question.
15:53
Speaker 1: When public officials take that oath, are they promising... to
15:57
Speaker 1: protect everyone's freedom of conscience, or to use government power
16:00
Speaker 1: to promote their own religion? Because as students head back
16:04
Speaker 1: to school, that question is not abstract. Public schools serve
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Speaker 1: children from Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, and
16:13
Speaker 1: many other families. No student should be made to feel
16:16
Speaker 1: like they belong less because they don't share the government's
16:19
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16:27
Speaker 1: The Freedom From Religion Foundation works to keep church and
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Speaker 1: state separate because freedom of conscience means the right to believe, question, doubt,
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16:54
Speaker 1: That's ffrf.us slash o-f-f-i-c-e. Welcome back. We're speaking with Congressman
17:09
Speaker 1: Jared Huffman on the oath in the office. We've talked
17:12
Speaker 1: on this show a lot about certainly the academic version
17:15
Speaker 1: of all this. I should say, too, that Pete Hegseth
17:17
Speaker 1: took class with a professor at Princeton who I was
17:20
Speaker 1: the TA for, the preceptor, as we called it, Robert George.
17:24
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've come across in this work a colleague
17:26
Speaker 1: of Finna's and Bradley and some of the other theologians. But,
17:30
Speaker 1: you know, as I would say, conservative and bordering, certainly anti-establishment,
17:35
Speaker 1: as some of those figures are. Adrian Vermeule is another
17:37
Speaker 1: one from Harvard in the integralist tradition. I mean, really,
17:40
Speaker 1: you're doing more in the book than just talking about ideas.
17:43
Speaker 1: You're saying, no, these are groups that are actively undermining
17:46
Speaker 1: our democracy. They're not sitting around in classrooms and just
17:50
Speaker 1: talking about theoretical ideas. And you mentioned, of course, Pete Hegsath.
17:54
Speaker 1: And we've seen that from the rhetoric and the symbol's
17:58
Speaker 1: we've seen from him. I mean, I'd invite you to
18:01
Speaker 1: comment more on Hegsath and how he demonstrates this theocratic view.
18:04
Speaker 1: But what I'm especially interested in getting to is, and
18:08
Speaker 1: we've started doing this a little bit in talking about
18:11
Speaker 1: why we never really saw this evidence in the report,
18:14
Speaker 1: but to hear about your colleagues who you would associate
18:18
Speaker 1: with Christian nationalism, if you'd be willing to, and to
18:20
Speaker 1: tell us if you want to name names, great. If
18:22
Speaker 1: you don't, just to say something about how does it
18:25
Speaker 1: present itself in Congress, you know, in the day-to-day discussions
18:29
Speaker 1: and debates? Because I take it, you know, part of
18:32
Speaker 1: it is the danger of the end goal, but there
18:34
Speaker 1: are elements of Christian nationalism that are just opposed, as
18:38
Speaker 1: you said, to the ban on an official religion, which
18:42
Speaker 1: is in the first part of the First Amendment. Yeah.
18:44
Speaker 1: So how does it manifest itself with your colleagues? If
18:47
Speaker 1: you want to comment on our, he calls himself, of course,
18:49
Speaker 1: the Secretary of War, the legislation that creates the Department
18:53
Speaker 1: of Defense doesn't call it that. So I try not
18:55
Speaker 1: to call him that. But I would be very interested
18:58
Speaker 1: in how all of this presents itself.
19:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not using that term without air quotes either.
19:05
Speaker 2: I think it's just absurd that they have done that.
19:08
Speaker 2: But You know, you ask about my colleagues in Washington,
19:11
Speaker 2: and I do want in this book to show people
19:15
Speaker 2: just how advanced this Christian nationalist project is, because it's
19:20
Speaker 2: much further along than most people realize, much more entrenched
19:23
Speaker 2: in our institutions and our practices in Washington, D.C. So
19:28
Speaker 2: I profile to a degree Mike Johnson as a good
19:32
Speaker 2: example of one of the Christian nationalist power players. This
19:35
Speaker 2: guy is an extreme nationalist. Christian nationalist. In any normal time,
19:39
Speaker 2: he never could have become Speaker of the House, but
19:42
Speaker 2: he sort of stumbled into it because of the debacle
19:46
Speaker 2: of the way they deposed Kevin McCarthy and couldn't find
19:49
Speaker 2: anyone else after overnight. a month of trying to get
19:51
Speaker 2: the votes. And all of a sudden, he just slid
19:54
Speaker 2: in without any vetting or real scrutiny. So Mike Johnson
19:58
Speaker 2: has dedicated his life and career to what he calls
20:01
Speaker 2: biblically sanctioned government. That's a euphemism for theocracy, obviously.
20:07
Speaker 1: Remember his first interview?
20:09
Speaker 2: With Sean Hannity, when all of a sudden he was
20:11
Speaker 2: Speaker of the House and people wanted to know who
20:13
Speaker 2: the heck this guy was. Hannity asked him, what is
20:15
Speaker 2: your worldview? Mike Johnson said, the Bible. The Bible is
20:19
Speaker 2: my worldview. And that is how he sees it. He
20:24
Speaker 2: has spent his life trying to impose morality codes from
20:28
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, trying to control women's bodies, trying to
20:33
Speaker 2: push laws that Implement covenant marriage, which makes it very
20:37
Speaker 2: hard for women to escape an abusive spouse. He's super hardcore.
20:43
Speaker 2: And as speaker, he hasn't been very good at governing
20:46
Speaker 2: the United States of America, of course. But he's been
20:49
Speaker 2: very impactful in advancing this Christian nationalist project in platforming
20:55
Speaker 2: and mainstreaming a lot of real fringe operatives, including folks
21:00
Speaker 2: from the New Apostolic Reformation. He's created this new kind
21:05
Speaker 2: of flagship event for congressional Republicans called the National Day
21:09
Speaker 2: of Prayer and Repentance, where it's sort of meant to
21:12
Speaker 2: supersede the national prayer breakfast, because that just wasn't extreme
21:17
Speaker 2: enough for them. It was ecumenical, right? They sometimes allowed
21:21
Speaker 2: non-Christians to participate in that. So he set up this
21:25
Speaker 2: explicitly revival-style, hardcore Christian nationalist kind of altar call. really,
21:33
Speaker 2: at the Museum of the Bible. And dozens of members
21:37
Speaker 2: of the House and Senate go over there and take
21:40
Speaker 2: the stage with the most radical prophets from the New
21:44
Speaker 2: Apostolic Reformation, folks that were up to their necks in
21:48
Speaker 2: the January 6th insurrection. And they call out how sinful
21:52
Speaker 2: our nation is, and they ask God's forgiveness for all
21:55
Speaker 2: of the sins of liberalism and women's rights and all
21:59
Speaker 2: of these other things. It's quite a spectacle.
22:01
Speaker 1: I mean, how does it I mean, this might sound
22:03
Speaker 1: a little abstract, but I'll bet you can think of examples.
22:06
Speaker 1: I mean, I would just imagine that apart from the
22:10
Speaker 1: extremism of the goals that just trying to cooperate on
22:14
Speaker 1: ordinary legislation. with somebody who espouses theocracy, it might be difficult,
22:19
Speaker 1: you know, well, let's put aside our differences and find commonality. Well,
22:23
Speaker 1: if every first principle is, you know, let's look at
22:26
Speaker 1: what the Bible says and think from there. I mean,
22:29
Speaker 1: is that right? Is it as bad as it sounds
22:32
Speaker 1: when it comes to the ability to cooperate across the
22:35
Speaker 1: aisle with this element anyway of the Republican Party?
22:39
Speaker 2: It certainly doesn't help. I mean, look, when you're in Congress,
22:43
Speaker 2: your job is to, you know, try to put aside
22:47
Speaker 2: those first principles and find something you can get done
22:51
Speaker 2: with your colleagues, no matter how bad the politics are.
22:53
Speaker 2: So yeah, I've still been able to, you know, find
22:56
Speaker 2: a bill here or there that I could do with
22:57
Speaker 2: some of these, you know, more extreme Christian nationalists, then
23:00
Speaker 2: I'll keep doing that. But their agenda scares me. And,
23:05
Speaker 2: you know, the extent of it We talked about the
23:08
Speaker 2: New Apostolic Reformation. Again, people need to get to know
23:11
Speaker 2: this group because it's a power player in this movement.
23:15
Speaker 2: The symbol of the NAR is this appeal to heaven flag,
23:20
Speaker 2: really popularized by a very radical pastor named Dutch Sheets.
23:25
Speaker 2: There are over 20 congressional offices that have the appeal
23:29
Speaker 2: to heaven flag flying outside their office in the U.S. Capitol.
23:34
Speaker 2: And that flag is explicitly theocratic. It is the Seven
23:38
Speaker 2: Mountains Mandate. It was used to beat cops over the
23:41
Speaker 2: head on January 6th. So that's just one of many signs.
23:45
Speaker 2: There are all of these Christian nationalist ministries and pastors
23:49
Speaker 2: that roam the halls recruiting people into these Bible studies
23:53
Speaker 2: that tell members of Congress and staff how God wants
23:56
Speaker 2: them to use their power. And it is extreme right-wing stuff.
24:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. And of course, and you're extremely clear in the
24:02
Speaker 1: book and you have been here, too, that this isn't
24:04
Speaker 1: a criticism in any way of Christianity. It's of really
24:07
Speaker 1: trying to co-opt the United States government, which had its founding,
24:12
Speaker 1: as you also nicely point out, was devoted to the
24:15
Speaker 1: idea that not only did we not have an official religion,
24:17
Speaker 1: but that we don't have laws that respect or relate
24:20
Speaker 1: to religion. An official religion. And of course, he pointed
24:24
Speaker 1: out that Madison, after he was in Congress, looks at
24:27
Speaker 1: the establishment of ministry, which I guess at the time
24:30
Speaker 1: they sort of thought was benign and says, wow, this
24:33
Speaker 1: is really bringing us down a terrible path. So the
24:37
Speaker 1: symbols matter because they're about the kind of government that
24:40
Speaker 1: I think the foundation of America actually in the First
24:43
Speaker 1: Amendment is anti-theocracy. Tell us about the policy implications of
24:48
Speaker 1: all of this. I mean, there's the sort of frightening
24:51
Speaker 1: anti-democratic element that you talked about in the extreme of
24:54
Speaker 1: January 6th. But what about things like the right to
24:58
Speaker 1: gay marriage, which is, of course, enshrined in the United
25:01
Speaker 1: States Supreme Court opinion, but that opinions, as we know,
25:04
Speaker 1: over and over again can be changed on speaking of
25:07
Speaker 1: which the Supreme Court, of course, has reversed its opinion
25:11
Speaker 1: on Roe versus Wade and Dobbs. But that's left things
25:14
Speaker 1: state by state. And there's a question, of course, of
25:17
Speaker 1: whether or not Theocrats would be comfortable with that. I
25:20
Speaker 1: imagine not that they're aiming for a national ban on abortion,
25:24
Speaker 1: something that hasn't gotten enough attention. So aside from the
25:28
Speaker 1: big picture, you know, if theocrats could have their dream,
25:32
Speaker 1: Christian nationalists could have their dream government, what would they
25:35
Speaker 1: want to do? What do you see them in the
25:36
Speaker 1: more near term trying to accomplish if they're able to
25:39
Speaker 1: grow and succeed in continuing to have an influence in
25:43
Speaker 1: our government?
25:44
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Well, look, they do not accept the Obergefell decision
25:47
Speaker 2: as the right word. on marriage equality. I mean, Mike
25:51
Speaker 2: Johnson has voted to criminalize consensual gay sex. So you
25:56
Speaker 2: can imagine how he feels about gay marriage. He is
26:00
Speaker 2: obsessed with this stuff. He was a senior attorney at
26:03
Speaker 2: a group called the Alliance Defending Freedom, which was on
26:07
Speaker 2: the wrong side of Obergefell and has been on the
26:11
Speaker 2: right-wing Christian side of all of these pieces of litigation
26:15
Speaker 2: moving up to the Supreme Court for many, many years.
26:19
Speaker 2: It's coming. I mean, they're going to come for marriage
26:22
Speaker 2: equality and for LGBTQ rights. Absolutely. And we need to
26:28
Speaker 2: be clear about that. You can't avoid this reckoning if
26:31
Speaker 2: you care about these things, if you care about our
26:33
Speaker 2: form of government, if you care about these rights and freedoms.
26:36
Speaker 2: In fact, you know, sometimes people wonder, how did Donald Trump,
26:41
Speaker 2: this non-religious, sinful narcissist... Managed to get more than 80%
26:50
Speaker 2: of evangelicals to support him, and they still do. That
26:53
Speaker 2: remains his most loyal political base, these white evangelicals. They're
26:57
Speaker 2: so devoted to him. He is a quasi-religious figure in
27:01
Speaker 2: their eyes. How did that happen? It has a lot
27:03
Speaker 2: to do with the aftermath of Obergefell, which was such
27:07
Speaker 2: a low ebb for this movement and for the NAR folks.
27:13
Speaker 2: They decided that business as usual wasn't going to cut
27:15
Speaker 2: it heading into the 2016 campaign, that they needed a bully.
27:21
Speaker 2: And one of their prophetic Christian fanatical faith leaders, Paula White,
27:26
Speaker 2: who was very close to Donald Trump, brought Trump into
27:30
Speaker 2: this apostolic group, introduced him, and they saw something they liked.
27:36
Speaker 2: They thought this could be our guy. And they came
27:38
Speaker 2: up with this Cyrus anointing prophecy. I don't know if
27:41
Speaker 2: you've heard of this. But the prophecy that a guy
27:44
Speaker 2: named Lance Wall now concocted is that Donald Trump is
27:48
Speaker 2: God's flawed vessel to save his chosen people, conservative Christians,
27:54
Speaker 2: just like God did with the pagan King Cyrus in
27:57
Speaker 2: the Bible. And this prophecy just went viral and it worked.
28:04
Speaker 1: I mean, he just won.
28:06
Speaker 2: He won over seriously religious candidates in 2016 on the
28:10
Speaker 2: Republican side. And then, you know, the legend only grew
28:14
Speaker 2: when he survived a couple of assassination attempts. So as
28:18
Speaker 2: crazy as it seems to most of us on the outside,
28:21
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, for this cohort of his base, the hardcore
28:25
Speaker 2: Christian nationalists, especially the evangelicals, he is a religious figure.
28:30
Speaker 1: Amazing. You know, one thing we're always trying to do
28:33
Speaker 1: on The Oath in the Office is tell the truth
28:35
Speaker 1: about the threat to democracy. And I think we've done
28:38
Speaker 1: a really nice job of getting into the specifics of
28:41
Speaker 1: what this threat of theocracy, the very threat the framers
28:44
Speaker 1: themselves were worried about, why it's very much alive today. dangerous.
28:48
Speaker 1: But we're also always looking for hope in the future.
28:51
Speaker 1: And I know you could provide us some of that.
28:53
Speaker 1: I mean, part of it, I guess, that I want
28:55
Speaker 1: to ask you in getting to that idea of hope is,
28:58
Speaker 1: what is the way with this knowledge that we all
29:00
Speaker 1: have of what's going on? And thanks to your book
29:04
Speaker 1: and this discussion, and I'm sure what will be a
29:07
Speaker 1: concerted effort to try to make sure that we're aware
29:09
Speaker 1: of this threat and the details of it. How to
29:12
Speaker 1: fight back? I mean, is it enough to reveal it
29:14
Speaker 1: for what it is? Do you have thoughts about that?
29:17
Speaker 1: I don't imagine that it played, you know, for all
29:20
Speaker 1: of Liz Cheney's personal reasons for wanting to bury this information,
29:23
Speaker 1: the January 6th report. I don't think the American people
29:26
Speaker 1: are going to receive well a movement that is devoted
29:29
Speaker 1: to destroying democracy in the name of theocracy. So I'd
29:33
Speaker 1: be very interested to hear from you and what we
29:35
Speaker 1: can do to really resist and more than that, fight
29:38
Speaker 1: back against this movement. dangerous idea and movement.
29:42
Speaker 2: Well, there's part of your hope right there, Corey. Most Americans,
29:45
Speaker 2: whether they're Christians, non-Christians, non-believers, they want no part of
29:50
Speaker 2: a creepy right-wing theocracy. They still, to this day, value
29:54
Speaker 2: church-state separation. It's very popular. And we've got all of
29:58
Speaker 2: that going for us. So that encourages me. I am
30:01
Speaker 2: encouraged by the way I see more Christians stepping into
30:05
Speaker 2: this fight. Now, they're doing it from a faith perspective.
30:07
Speaker 2: When Tallarico or David French or others call out Christian nationalism,
30:13
Speaker 2: they do a great job of nailing the hypocrisy, of
30:18
Speaker 2: critiquing the movement, you know, according to the gospel and
30:22
Speaker 2: kind of revealing it as a bastardization of certainly the
30:27
Speaker 2: core teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm rooting for all of
30:30
Speaker 2: those good Christians to win this fight. That is good stuff.
30:34
Speaker 2: I am worried there's not enough of them and that
30:37
Speaker 2: they are not powerful enough to stop this juggernaut of
30:41
Speaker 2: theocracy that is so entrenched at the highest levels of
30:44
Speaker 2: our government, far more so than most people realize. And
30:48
Speaker 2: so one of my big points in the book is
30:51
Speaker 2: that we've got to work together. 35% of the country
30:55
Speaker 2: is either non-Christian or non-religious and And you can't just
30:58
Speaker 2: have that group wait on the sidelines for David French
31:02
Speaker 2: and the others to win the theological debate over the gospel, right?
31:06
Speaker 2: This is about more than that. It's about our democracy
31:09
Speaker 2: and it's about our rights. And in a large way,
31:13
Speaker 2: it may be about our ability to continue living on
31:15
Speaker 2: this planet because you and I have been talking about
31:19
Speaker 2: the fight over our form of government, right? But this
31:22
Speaker 2: movement is also at war with modern science, with higher education,
31:27
Speaker 2: with critical thinking. And I have an entire chapter that
31:31
Speaker 2: talks about that part of their agenda. We depend on
31:35
Speaker 2: these institutions that they're tearing down to come up with
31:38
Speaker 2: cures to terrible diseases, to get us through the next pandemic,
31:42
Speaker 2: to help us tackle the climate crisis. So this is
31:45
Speaker 2: more than just a political debate about our liberty. This
31:49
Speaker 2: is in many ways really about our existence. on this planet.
31:53
Speaker 2: We've got to find a way to come together. I
31:55
Speaker 2: think there's still time, but it requires us to quickly
31:59
Speaker 2: get better at talking about something very awkward to most Americans,
32:04
Speaker 2: the intersection of politics and religion.
32:06
Speaker 1: I've got to ask you one last follow-up on this,
32:09
Speaker 1: and you've already really raised the issue that I wanted
32:11
Speaker 1: to end with, because there is something in the book that,
32:14
Speaker 1: there's a lot that's different, but one thing that I
32:16
Speaker 1: especially appreciated this moment was is, as you say, there's
32:20
Speaker 1: been a pivot, let's call it, of Telerico and others
32:23
Speaker 1: to try to reclaim Christianity. which I appreciate and approve of.
32:29
Speaker 1: And of course, my co-host, John Fuglesang, is part of
32:32
Speaker 1: that movement, as you know. And yet, at the same time,
32:36
Speaker 1: I don't want that to be the only way of
32:38
Speaker 1: resisting theocracy, because after all, the idea of not having
32:42
Speaker 1: an established religion isn't to make room for the right Christianity,
32:46
Speaker 1: it's to make room for a plurality of ways of
32:49
Speaker 1: thinking and plurality of religions. And now this is where
32:52
Speaker 1: I think This book really is very new for a politician.
32:56
Speaker 1: I mean, you tell the story of being flummoxed at
33:00
Speaker 1: being asked to be sworn in on the Bible, to
33:03
Speaker 1: being asked by Colbert directly, Stephen Colbert, if you're an atheist.
33:07
Speaker 1: And that sort of leads you to a kind of
33:09
Speaker 1: honesty in the book, which is that you really think
33:12
Speaker 1: of yourself as a humanist, as I understand that you
33:14
Speaker 1: don't really think of yourself that. in terms of a
33:17
Speaker 1: major religion. And that is different for politicians, regardless of
33:21
Speaker 1: what they believe and what they say. So tell me
33:24
Speaker 1: about how that fits in. I don't see a lot
33:25
Speaker 1: of praise from politicians for Christopher Hitchens. You're unabashedly a fan,
33:32
Speaker 1: you know, the- Oh, I love Christopher, yeah.
33:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, so look, I grew up as a devout Christian.
33:40
Speaker 2: I was ordained into the priesthood of a branch of
33:42
Speaker 2: the Mormon church. So I'm fairly fluent. in all of
33:45
Speaker 2: this stuff. And it's perhaps why I sort of understand.
33:49
Speaker 2: I think it gives me an empathy for many people
33:53
Speaker 2: of faith and faith communities, but also, you know, a
33:56
Speaker 2: clear-eyed wariness of religious extremism. And that's really where I'm
34:01
Speaker 2: coming from. When religion stopped working for me in my
34:05
Speaker 2: early 20s, it was a hard thing. And it is,
34:08
Speaker 2: I think, for many people who lose their faith. I
34:11
Speaker 2: ultimately figured out that the things I liked about my
34:14
Speaker 2: religious upbringing were are just universal values that are there
34:18
Speaker 2: for people of all faith perspectives and non-believers. And humanism
34:23
Speaker 2: is the label I have landed on. That is my
34:26
Speaker 2: moral framework and worldview. I believe most of the same
34:30
Speaker 2: stuff as John and a bunch of other, you know, good,
34:34
Speaker 2: decent Christians that I know and admire. It's just not
34:38
Speaker 2: the supernatural part. So I'm a little like Thomas Jefferson,
34:41
Speaker 2: if you will. Back to our founding and this whole
34:43
Speaker 2: Christian Nationalist conversation. Thomas Jefferson thought that the teachings of
34:49
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ were great, but the supernatural stuff had to go.
34:54
Speaker 2: He didn't believe in the divinity. And so he actually
34:57
Speaker 2: took a razor to the New Testament and cut out
35:00
Speaker 2: the mysticism and the magic and the miracles. And he
35:03
Speaker 2: wrote in a letter to John Adams that it was
35:05
Speaker 2: as easy as separating diamonds from dunghills. So Jefferson was
35:11
Speaker 2: pretty critical of revealed religion. He was a rationalist But
35:15
Speaker 2: he's a very, you know, he had his flaws.
35:18
Speaker 1: We all know that, right?
35:19
Speaker 2: He kept slaves and so forth. But, you know, he
35:22
Speaker 2: was certainly open to the moral teachings of Jesus. And
35:25
Speaker 2: that's sort of where I am. Sorry you got me
35:27
Speaker 2: started on the religion part here, but I am an
35:29
Speaker 2: oddball in Congress. I'm the only one who's publicly non-religious
35:34
Speaker 2: and a humanist.
35:35
Speaker 1: Great. Well, what a terrific conversation, Congressman Jared Huffman. The
35:39
Speaker 1: book is No Profits. I highly recommend it. Congrats on
35:43
Speaker 1: its publication. I should say I'm a fellow Norton, WW
35:47
Speaker 1: Norton author, so happy to be connected in that way too.
35:51
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for joining us on The
35:53
Speaker 1: Oath in the Office, Congressman. We really appreciate it.
35:56
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Corey.
35:57
Speaker 1: That was an amazing conversation with Congressman Jared Huffman. I
36:02
Speaker 1: recommend that book, No Profits. It is a moment in
36:06
Speaker 1: which we're used to really hearing about the threat to democracy,
36:12
Speaker 1: white nationalism. But what this book really does is bring
36:15
Speaker 1: out the specific threat of Christian nationalism, not in some
36:18
Speaker 1: abstract way, but directly from somebody who was there during
36:21
Speaker 1: January 6th who experienced it and has really researched this
36:25
Speaker 1: movement behind it. We look forward. John is away on vacation.
36:30
Speaker 1: He'll join us next week. And thank you, as always,
36:33
Speaker 1: for joining us on The Oath in the Office. If
36:35
Speaker 1: you haven't subscribed, please do. Leave a review. We're getting
36:40
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36:43
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36:47
Speaker 1: three of Apple trending podcasts. So thanks for making that happen.
36:51
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Substack, the Oath in
36:54
Speaker 1: the Office Substack. You can find us on YouTube. And
36:57
Speaker 1: we'll see you next week, as always, on the Oath
36:59
Speaker 1: in the Office.