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How do we define Success and Fulfillment in the Wedding Industry? · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

• 0:00
  Becca: Before today's episode starts, I just wanted to explain to you that today's
• 0:04
  episode is going to go a little bit deep.
• 0:07
  We're going to have some difficult conversations talking around mental
• 0:10
  health, family, looking back at the past, and there may be some subjects
• 0:15
  that some of you may find difficult.
• 0:16
  So I wanted to just let you know before we dive into this conversation,
• 0:20
  I think it's an incredibly important conversation to have, but if you
• 0:22
  don't feel ready to hear that kind of thing right now, then feel free to
• 0:26
  skip on back to a different episode.
• 0:29
  If you do decide to listen and you find that it does bring up some difficult
• 0:33
  things for you, then please can I encourage you to get out there and speak
• 0:36
  to someone don't suffer in silence.
• 0:39
  I hope you enjoyed today's conversation.
• 0:43
  I'm Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert, speaker and blogger,
• 0:47
  and you're listening to the Wedding Pros Who Are Ready To Grow podcast.
• 0:51
  I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies, and real life
• 0:54
  examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
• 0:58
  If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion
• 1:01
  and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business, doing what you
• 1:05
  love, then you're in the right place.
• 1:07
  Let's get going with today's episode.
• 1:10
  Today I'm chatting with Ben Chernivsky, wedding photographer and founder of Giphy.
• 1:15
  A small lightweight photo booth that is fully portable and fits inside a bag.
• 1:19
  We met out in the U.
• 1:20
  S.
• 1:20
  when I used his photo booth at an event, and as usual, we got chatting.
• 1:24
  I loved our conversation, so I wanted to bring it to all of you as well, so
• 1:28
  I invited him to be on the podcast.
• 1:30
  Ben, it's great to have you.
• 1:31
  Welcome.
• 1:32
  Welcome.
• 1:33
  Welcome.
• 1:33
  Ben: Very grateful to be here.
• 1:34
  Becca: Thanks so much.
• 1:35
  I'm excited to have this conversation because exactly as I said in the intro,
• 1:38
  we were just chit chatting while we were eating our nibbles at the party and we got
• 1:42
  deep into conversations about business and weddings and as tends to happen when we
• 1:47
  have a conversation, these kind of things.
• 1:48
  And I thought, yes, more people need to hear this conversation.
• 1:52
  So thank you for your time.
• 1:53
  Thank you for being here.
• 1:54
  Yeah.
• 1:55
  Ben: Very, very grateful.
• 1:56
  And I agree.
• 1:57
  I agree.
• 1:57
  The conversation is out there.
• 1:58
  It's a matter of like, who's, who's got the patience to listen to it.
• 2:02
  Who's got, who's got the.
• 2:04
  Courage to look within, you know, I think the conversation is really important for
• 2:11
  business owners and people in general, but I think a lot of people choose
• 2:14
  to walk away from it and that's okay, some people just aren't ready for it.
• 2:18
  Becca: Well, we are going to dive deep, but before we get to that point, what I
• 2:22
  want to do is go back to the beginning, because I think it's really important for
• 2:25
  people to understand where someone came from and to understand their backgrounds
• 2:29
  before we dive deep into these subjects.
• 2:31
  So.
• 2:32
  You're a wedding photographer, first and foremost.
• 2:34
  That was kind of your first foray into weddings.
• 2:37
  How did that happen?
• 2:39
  Ben: Oh, geez.
• 2:39
  Well, I was.
• 2:41
  I, I, I was really, really uninterested in weddings and I was very, very
• 2:45
  interested in like saving the world through documentary photography.
• 2:51
  That was, that's where my heart was at.
• 2:53
  And man, did I, did I push for that so, so hard.
• 2:57
  And it was just like, I was just swinging at the bat and it just
• 3:03
  like was not hitting the ball.
• 3:04
  You know, do you guys baseball out in the UK?
• 3:07
  Is that a thing?
• 3:08
  Becca: We do but not as much as you do.
• 3:10
  Ben: Very classic US sport man.
• 3:12
  So I, like, and maybe, you know, you're sitting you, you're, and you were just
• 3:16
  swinging and swinging and swinging.
• 3:17
  the tee you guys have baseball out was going nowhere.
• 3:21
  And it came to a point where it's just like, I, I, I, I had enough
• 3:26
  self-awareness that like I knew, so something wasn't working with,
• 3:30
  with documentary photography.
• 3:33
  And I wasn't meeting the right people, like the stars didn't align,
• 3:37
  like the talent wasn't quite there.
• 3:39
  I think the talent was there.
• 3:40
  I was pretty good at what I did.
• 3:42
  But it didn't really align with like my future goals and what I deeply yearned for
• 3:46
  in my heart, which was to have a family.
• 3:49
  And it, yeah, so I just, you know, like a friend, but I
• 3:52
  was obsessed with photography.
• 3:53
  Like it was, it was like for sure my passion, 100%.
• 3:57
  A friend was like, yo, I'm getting married.
• 3:58
  And I was like, okay.
• 4:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 4:01
  You want me to shoot your wedding?
• 4:02
  Okay.
• 4:02
  Okay.
• 4:03
  And it was funny because like, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm a guy that like,
• 4:08
  just whatever I do, I put my full heart into it a hundred percent.
• 4:12
  And so I started going on these forums.
• 4:14
  It was back in the day.
• 4:14
  It was like these forums called Fred Miranda forums.
• 4:17
  And it's like, it's like, it, that's where a lot of really good wedding
• 4:21
  photographers were connecting.
• 4:23
  And it was literally just like conversations like back and forth.
• 4:27
  I wasn't on Facebook back then, even, I don't even know if it existed for me.
• 4:32
  And I just like, I started like getting really into critiquing other people's
• 4:38
  works and having opinions about what, what, what worked on wedding days and
• 4:42
  photography and what I like and dislike.
• 4:44
  And I just went into that first wedding, just like completely
• 4:47
  fueled and ready to go.
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  Just like, I really.
• 4:51
  And I'm sitting there.
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  I'm like, why am I giving this so much effort, man?
• 4:55
  And it was just like, that's just my personality.
• 4:57
  That's like what I do is like, whenever I do things, I, I really
• 5:00
  put my heart into it, but I didn't realize I just cared about it.
• 5:04
  I really cared.
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  I mean, I fell in love with like what weddings were about.
• 5:07
  Like, I didn't, I didn't even know what like a processional recessional, like, I
• 5:11
  didn't, I didn't know any of this s***.
• 5:13
  Like, dude, I got married like five years after my first wedding.
• 5:17
  I didn't even know there was a difference between an engagement
• 5:20
  band and a wedding band.
• 5:21
  So like a month before my wedding, someone's like, where's the wedding band?
• 5:24
  I was like, Oh, I, you know, I give that to Vanessa when like we propose like,
• 5:27
  dude, there's another freaking ring.
• 5:29
  I'm like, what?
• 5:31
  And I like even like that was like five years later after seeing my
• 5:34
  first wedding, I, I just, that stuff, all the tradition, all that
• 5:38
  was, was like, wasn't really there.
• 5:39
  So, so yeah, I friend asked me, you know, And then I was, I was in, I
• 5:45
  was in school for like photography.
• 5:47
  There was like a technical photo program at a community college.
• 5:50
  I went to college DuPage in the suburbs of Chicago.
• 5:53
  And they had this photo list that you could join.
• 5:56
  And it was like, just do photo lists.
• 5:58
  Like these things, the guys, this was back in like.
• 6:00
  This was back in like two thousand three, four, five, six.
• 6:06
  Okay, so what they did is they had these photo lists that people would
• 6:09
  send requests, like random people in the community would be like,
• 6:11
  Hey, I'm looking for like a student photographer for like a birthday party.
• 6:14
  And I just like, would any job that would pay money for photography, I'd just
• 6:19
  say, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
• 6:21
  And a few of those were weddings.
• 6:22
  And so yeah, just Just shoot really weird weddings back then for sure, like, like
• 6:29
  weddings in like church gyms and stuff.
• 6:31
  It was pretty wild.
• 6:32
  Becca: So you ended up in weddings, which you didn't really want to be in
• 6:36
  in the first place, which quite often is what happens in the wedding industry.
• 6:39
  People sort of fall into this industry and then find this weird love for it.
• 6:43
  Over time, though, that business has obviously grown.
• 6:47
  Tell us what that business looks like today.
• 6:49
  Ben: Yeah, today we shoot like, you know, I got a photo video
• 6:51
  team, I've got a photo booth.
• 6:53
  We do 125 weddings a year.
• 6:56
  You know, I'd say like a hundred.
• 6:57
  Yeah, just a few, just a bit.
• 6:59
  We do, I do about, about 200 photo booth rentals a year.
• 7:03
  Yeah.
• 7:04
  It keeps me busy.
• 7:05
  And you know, my wife is a full time mom.
• 7:09
  She does other things.
• 7:10
  She's, she's actually a really cool person.
• 7:11
  She's not just like a stay at home mom.
• 7:13
  There's a lot more to her identity, but we got, you know, we got through
• 7:15
  like, we have a six and eight year old at home and I've been able to
• 7:18
  like, you know, make enough income to.
• 7:19
  to take care of my family and not stress them out.
• 7:23
  I've been stressed out.
• 7:24
  That's another story though.
• 7:25
  So yeah, it's, it's been like a huge blessing and I, I would, I would,
• 7:30
  I would say I am successful in this industry and I feel really good
• 7:34
  about that and I'm proud about that.
• 7:36
  Becca: I definitely think I would say exactly the same.
• 7:39
  But I know that the, I know that the listeners are going to be shouting at the
• 7:42
  podcast saying, how can one man possibly do 125 weddings and 200 photo booths?
• 7:49
  So I assume you have a team.
• 7:51
  How's that all panned out?
• 7:52
  Talk to me about that.
• 7:54
  Ben: Teamwork makes the dream work man.
• 7:56
  You don't you don't achieve success on your own.
• 7:58
  I don't think so I don't there's no such thing as is doing it.
• 8:01
  You know, I have this sticker It says self made and it's just such
• 8:06
  a it's a bunch of bulls*** man.
• 8:08
  It's it's ridiculous I wouldn't be where i'm at without the help of like
• 8:12
  mentors coaching teachers Educational programs, podcasts, conferences.
• 8:20
  Now, yeah, quite practically I have a team.
• 8:22
  Okay.
• 8:23
  Boots on the ground.
• 8:24
  I have employees out here that helped me out.
• 8:27
  Yeah.
• 8:27
  There's no way I'm doing 125.
• 8:29
  I think the most weddings I ever did was 47.
• 8:32
  in a year.
• 8:32
  And that s*** just, whew.
• 8:34
  I was like that back in the day I was shooting, he was shooting triples
• 8:36
  like Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
• 8:38
  It was like crazy, dude.
• 8:40
  So I put my time in.
• 8:42
  Yeah.
• 8:43
  Becca: That's a place that a lot of wedding pros get to though,
• 8:45
  because a lot of people I see, they start out, they're just hustling.
• 8:48
  They just want the work, they get the work.
• 8:49
  And then they suddenly hit this point where they're getting the work and
• 8:52
  now there's too much work and they're working, working, working all of the time.
• 8:56
  And it's difficult to make that decision to go.
• 8:58
  Okay, I've hit this income ceiling.
• 9:00
  I need to take on a team.
• 9:02
  Like how going back, how did you know you'd got to that point to take
• 9:06
  on extra people into the business?
• 9:07
  Ben: I, I would get like emotionally enraged when I
• 9:11
  had to say no to a new lead.
• 9:15
  That came in, I was like, I'm booked.
• 9:17
  I'd be like cursing.
• 9:19
  I'd be so, I, I, I, I just like, it drove me nuts.
• 9:22
  I was like, dude, that is an opportunity for money in this industry.
• 9:26
  And then this, you know, in my job, I'd have to say no to it.
• 9:30
  And, and that was it.
• 9:32
  I mean, I, it, but, but there's another part of it too.
• 9:36
  You know, one of my, like someone who was a friend of mine and a
• 9:39
  bit of a coach, his name is Steve Saperito and an incredible guy.
• 9:43
  Yeah.
• 9:44
  And I met him when he first started coming to the US and, and he, he
• 9:48
  saw a lot of potential in me and this is the other part of it.
• 9:51
  Okay.
• 9:52
  You got, you got to, like, I didn't just wake up one day and
• 9:54
  be like, Oh, I'm one of the team.
• 9:55
  I actually despised having a team, the idea of having a team, the
• 10:01
  idea of, I mean, I was open to like working with other people, but like
• 10:04
  I w I couldn't see past my own limit, which was like me as a creative doing
• 10:09
  the best f***ing job in the world.
• 10:11
  Kicking ass in this industry and like, just defeating the creative glass
• 10:17
  ceiling, that was, that was my mentality.
• 10:19
  So I didn't see that, like, there was an opportunity to create a
• 10:23
  team, train other people until this guy was like, he met, he met this.
• 10:30
  Another, this one assistant that was working with name with me.
• 10:34
  His name is Mike.
• 10:35
  He runs a small studio called jungle branch weddings down in North Carolina.
• 10:40
  Now he worked with me for like a long time.
• 10:42
  He was assisting with me in, in like 2012.
• 10:46
  He would say, Hey, Ben, can I come to weddings with you?
• 10:48
  Yeah, sure.
• 10:48
  No worries, man.
• 10:50
  And Steve really like pushed me to be like, Mike's amazing, man.
• 10:54
  Like give him, like give him more responsibility.
• 10:58
  And I, I, I even like was limiting.
• 11:01
  Mike's potential because like I only saw Mike as a, as a, as an assistant, a
• 11:07
  second, I saw him through such a critical eye that I didn't have the ability to be
• 11:13
  like, Oh, he could just lead weddings.
• 11:15
  I could train him to do that.
• 11:17
  So I needed help with that.
• 11:17
  So that, that was the kind of like the transition.
• 11:19
  It wasn't just like.
• 11:21
  Oh, I can take more work.
• 11:22
  It didn't like fall on my lap.
• 11:23
  It was, it was, it was a series of conversations and discussions and
• 11:27
  someone seeing my potential and helping me see someone else's potential.
• 11:30
  It was, it was, it was a lot of things in the, a lot of, a lot
• 11:34
  of things in the pot, so to say.
• 11:36
  Becca: And I think it's difficult because that business is our
• 11:39
  baby and it feels hard to let go.
• 11:41
  It feels hard to let go some of that control.
• 11:43
  It feels hard to pass some of that over to a team, but that is
• 11:47
  the only way that we can grow.
• 11:48
  And I think we are, all a bit self centered when we think, well,
• 11:51
  we're the only person that can do this at the best, actually.
• 11:55
  Yeah.
• 11:55
  Why don't we empower some more people to do this for us?
• 11:58
  But how do you keep the control over the quality?
• 12:00
  Cause I know that's a fear that lots of people have about bringing
• 12:03
  on team members that, well, what happens if they don't do a good job?
• 12:06
  What if they let the brand down?
• 12:07
  Like, how have you dealt with that?
• 12:09
  Ben: Full.
• 12:10
  Okay.
• 12:10
  I need everyone to hear me really, really clearly, like take off, like.
• 12:14
  The, the, the, the glasses that you see the world through and like the,
• 12:19
  the ear muffs and just listen to the words, all right, the most important
• 12:26
  thing in, in this realm is this thing called taking full responsibility for the
• 12:37
  decisions that you make in your brand.
• 12:40
  So what I mean by that is when you hire someone, you hire their talent.
• 12:44
  And a business owner will be like, Oh my gosh, you're amazing.
• 12:48
  And you're really good.
• 12:49
  And I've trained you.
• 12:50
  And it's like, they're so good.
• 12:52
  But the second, the second that person messes up and makes a mistake.
• 12:58
  What's the most common thing that's going to happen that that owner is going to be
• 13:02
  like, you messed up, you made the mistake.
• 13:05
  Why do you do this?
• 13:06
  They, they will use the employee for their benefit and their talent, but they
• 13:10
  will not, they will not own up to the fact that that that is a person and you
• 13:18
  have taken them on to your business.
• 13:20
  And you need to take responsibility for when they make a mistake.
• 13:24
  Now, I'm not saying that you caused the mistake or you were physically
• 13:29
  there at the wedding when they made a mistake or something went wrong.
• 13:32
  That's not what I'm saying.
• 13:33
  What I'm saying is like, there's an opportunity there
• 13:36
  to just take responsibility.
• 13:38
  Yes.
• 13:38
  I hired this person.
• 13:39
  Yes.
• 13:40
  I trusted them to take on the responsibility of my brand, my identity.
• 13:44
  And there's, there's a path I need to choose right now.
• 13:48
  And.
• 13:50
  If, if, if, if you take the path of taking full responsibility for your business and
• 13:56
  your brand, there's a reward there, not, not just for you, but for that person
• 14:03
  that is going to continue working with you because you've fostered their growth.
• 14:08
  So yeah, to, to cut it down, taking full responsibility, a hundred,
• 14:13
  hundreds in my, in my experience.
• 14:15
  That I might not be the same with other people.
• 14:18
  I don't know if you've recorded other people in the same boat as me, but
• 14:22
  that's been like just a North star in, in, in my business since the beginning.
• 14:27
  Becca: I think it's so true as well, because even when I look at my own
• 14:30
  team and when someone makes a mistake, most of the time it's because I haven't
• 14:35
  communicated properly because I haven't trained them properly, because I
• 14:37
  haven't spent enough time with them.
• 14:40
  And actually.
• 14:41
  Yeah.
• 14:41
  It's easy.
• 14:42
  It's easy to quickly point the finger, but actually when we self reflect
• 14:46
  and work out how we can grow them better, it works better all around.
• 14:50
  So you've grown this team, you've got this huge wedding photography
• 14:53
  business, and then in comes Giphy.
• 14:56
  As I mentioned in the intro, that's what I, I met you at, at Wedding MBA when
• 15:02
  you were there doing the photo booth.
• 15:04
  Giphy spelt G I F Y Y Y.
• 15:08
  If people want to look it up, where on earth did that come from?
• 15:11
  I don't know.
• 15:12
  Ben: Yeah.
• 15:12
  So one thing y'all got to understand is I didn't like becoming a
• 15:16
  wedding photographer was actually pretty conscious decisions for me.
• 15:19
  Yeah.
• 15:19
  I do understand a lot of people fall into it and then they get wrapped up in
• 15:22
  the income and they start taking jobs.
• 15:24
  Next thing they knew it there or they know it, they're kind of burnt out and they're
• 15:27
  like, this isn't really what I want to do.
• 15:29
  But everyone who's listening right now has to hear this.
• 15:32
  Like I, I made a conscious decision that I was going to commit to weddings.
• 15:38
  For 10 years.
• 15:39
  So I got married in 2010 and a year after that I was at a conference
• 15:42
  and I kept hearing this message.
• 15:44
  Because like, if you really sit and think about you and your experience
• 15:50
  in the world, you will hear a message over and over and over again.
• 15:54
  And you know it.
• 15:55
  It's there.
• 15:56
  You know exactly what it is.
• 15:57
  It's not going to be my message.
• 15:58
  It's your message.
• 15:59
  So I came, I came home from this one conference and I
• 16:01
  just kept hearing this thing.
• 16:03
  Specialized, specialized, specialized.
• 16:04
  Yeah.
• 16:05
  I was like, you know, twisted between like so many different
• 16:07
  types of photography, editorial, documentary, newspaper weddings.
• 16:11
  And I was like, dude, I just, I felt the call.
• 16:14
  I was like, just commit to it, commit to 10 years without distraction.
• 16:18
  So I, that was 2011 first season of wedding photography, 2012 got 25 weddings.
• 16:28
  book 25 weddings.
• 16:30
  So 2014 ish, I started thinking about this.
• 16:33
  Like, I think I was going to conferences and they're telling
• 16:36
  me how to make additional income.
• 16:37
  And one thing that was pretty hot between the years in 2012 and 2015, I'd say it
• 16:41
  was like, you had a photo booth, but those photo booths were crazy, man.
• 16:45
  They were like big clunky.
• 16:46
  And you know, they take 20, 30 minutes to set up and you need to plug them in and
• 16:50
  you need a higher staff and to run them.
• 16:52
  And So I I had one.
• 16:56
  It made me like four or five, 600 bucks every wedding that hired it.
• 17:00
  But it was just becoming like a, like a, there was like emotional
• 17:04
  weight that was coming with it because it was like a burden.
• 17:07
  And so I just stopped offering it.
• 17:09
  And I had come across this like device that was really simple.
• 17:13
  It was the iPad based photo booth at this one event, like a wedding I was shooting.
• 17:18
  And I was like, this is so amazing, man.
• 17:20
  And I called the company.
• 17:21
  And I was like, dude, I want one of these.
• 17:23
  I will pay for this.
• 17:24
  And the company just kind of like, they were like, well, you know,
• 17:27
  you can like book it and we'll give you a percentage of the booking.
• 17:31
  I was like, no, I was like, I don't, that's not, no, they, they, I was like,
• 17:34
  literally just tell me how much I will pay you so much money for this thing.
• 17:38
  And they just refused to sell it to me.
• 17:39
  So then I, I, I, I knew there was potential there and I called
• 17:45
  my friend, my college roommate.
• 17:48
  And I was like, yo, let's like make this thing.
• 17:49
  Can you help me make this thing?
• 17:51
  Cause it required, you know, software and hardware.
• 17:54
  And we built up this like prototype.
• 17:56
  And it was awesome.
• 17:58
  It was so cool.
• 17:59
  It was so much fun, man.
• 18:00
  It was so simple, so easy.
• 18:02
  It wasn't a headache.
• 18:03
  And I just got this idea, like I could like share this with the industry.
• 18:09
  People will buy this thing.
• 18:10
  This is a valuable product for event professionals and photographers.
• 18:14
  And it was one of those things that like, you just, I don't know if you've
• 18:16
  ever felt like a calling and you just can't stop hearing that call.
• 18:22
  That is what was going on.
• 18:24
  I couldn't like look away from this idea of.
• 18:28
  Mass producing this and selling it and I was having a lot of internal
• 18:33
  conflicts because I was it kind of got in the way of my Focus of you know,
• 18:39
  my commitment focus 10 years on the on wedding photography So I slightly
• 18:44
  tweaked that and I said 10 years.
• 18:46
  I'm gonna I'm gonna change my commitment goal, which is totally
• 18:48
  okay like you everyone has the right to do that and I just tweaked it
• 18:52
  to I'm gonna I'm going to commit to the wedding industry for 10 years.
• 18:57
  And that's, you know, that's what it gave me permission to like open
• 19:00
  up and really continue like going headstrong in the industry and continue
• 19:05
  to be a wedding photographer and also create this thing called Giphy.
• 19:09
  So that was, I would say that it was like 2015, 16 this year.
• 19:12
  Becca: And it is pretty cool because I saw it when I was out in America and you
• 19:17
  said to me, Oh, it just packs in a bag.
• 19:18
  I took it carry on, on the plane.
• 19:20
  And I was like, no, it didn't like, no, it didn't.
• 19:22
  And then you went and picked up the bag and you showed me
• 19:25
  this like handbag size thing.
• 19:26
  And I'm like, really?
• 19:28
  Because here in the UK, you know, there'll be photo booth people listening and
• 19:33
  they still, there's lots of them that still go around in a van with this huge.
• 19:37
  machine, like building this thing that takes ages.
• 19:41
  And it blew my mind that this piece of equipment was so small
• 19:45
  and so portable and so great.
• 19:47
  And so now you're selling that across the U S you're selling it to photographers.
• 19:52
  Is that kind of where we're at with it?
• 19:54
  Ben: Yeah, worldwide.
• 19:55
  There's a bunch of people in the UK that actually have one.
• 19:58
  So yeah, I've shipped a bunch overseas.
• 20:00
  So yeah, but yeah, I mean, that's, it's, it's like a side hustle.
• 20:03
  You know, I'm not putting 40 hours a week in Giphy.
• 20:07
  It's like a fun project that I did with my friend and it's
• 20:10
  earned me supplemental income.
• 20:12
  And I'm very grateful for that.
• 20:13
  It is, it is like not a traditional business model, but it works for my life
• 20:19
  and my goals and where I'm at and how much time I want to be spending on it.
• 20:24
  So yeah, it's still a thing.
• 20:26
  Becca: So we talked a little bit when we were out in America about your
• 20:29
  life and your goals and how people don't talk about these things enough.
• 20:35
  So you kind of have gone down this route of having multiple
• 20:38
  revenue streams, different things working for you in different ways.
• 20:42
  What would you say now, as you look forward, is your life plan?
• 20:46
  What are your goals?
• 20:47
  Ben: Yeah, that's, oh man definitely going through a transition.
• 20:50
  Listen, I'm 40 years old.
• 20:52
  I just turned 40 in April.
• 20:53
  And I think there is 35.
• 21:00
  And, you know, people call it the midlife crisis.
• 21:04
  40, right?
• 21:05
  I, to me, my experience of it was like the midlife awakening, all the energy that was
• 21:11
  around me turning 38, 39 was like, I just kept, there's this big empty thing within
• 21:19
  me and something just didn't feel right.
• 21:22
  Something wasn't sitting right.
• 21:24
  You know, I had my first kid in 2015, second kid in 2017 and I was just in
• 21:29
  like work hustle mode, but there's something like missing inside of me
• 21:33
  and I couldn't, I couldn't locate it.
• 21:35
  And I started really searching for that I'd say around like 2016, maybe
• 21:43
  like 17, 18 is when I started like really like getting curious about that.
• 21:48
  And it was the beginning of like a very beautiful like healing journey.
• 21:54
  of looking at my family, where I came from, my family origin.
• 21:58
  And you know, we don't have to get into too many specifics, but it is
• 22:01
  a really important part of like my life and where I'm at right now.
• 22:04
  Just like, just really like examining like internal traumas and the environment
• 22:08
  that I grew up in and how that created me.
• 22:11
  And just asking big questions like, am I living the life that I want to be
• 22:15
  living, or am I living the life that was handed to me or created for me or
• 22:17
  produced for me by society's version of, you know, what a man is, you know, what
• 22:25
  masculinity is, what being a father is like, I, I really started to ask myself.
• 22:33
  If, if I was being, you know, I, I, I'm not a big fan of
• 22:37
  the authentic word, right.
• 22:40
  But I'll use it.
• 22:41
  Was I living like my authentic life?
• 22:44
  I might've been living in an authentic life according to society or people
• 22:50
  that had their own definition of success, but there was definitely
• 22:53
  something missing within me.
• 22:56
  And that's kind of where I'm at right now.
• 22:58
  Like I, I, I have for sure located my addiction in life.
• 23:04
  And I think this is a really important thing for everybody to, to examine
• 23:09
  whether that's a vice or an addiction.
• 23:12
  Everyone has them and it's okay.
• 23:13
  There's nothing wrong with that.
• 23:15
  It's just, it just is what is, you know, it's like you, like everyone has things
• 23:21
  And my addiction is a very, very Like socially acceptable one, it's work.
• 23:29
  And what I mean by that is like, if you look up the, the, my definition
• 23:33
  of addiction is, you know, I got to think about this because
• 23:37
  I used to say it all the time.
• 23:38
  I don't say it so much anymore.
• 23:40
  What is the unmet need?
• 23:42
  What do you, what are you using in your life to cover up your unmet need?
• 23:47
  And for me, that was work.
• 23:51
  My work was covering up my unmet need.
• 23:56
  For a true, warm, loving family atmosphere, the loving father I could be,
• 24:05
  the amazing marriage that I wanted, I was just busying myself in like all this work.
• 24:11
  So, as I located that, I really dialed down a lot of my businesses
• 24:17
  and my work responsibilities.
• 24:20
  To focus more on family time, to focus more on doing things that I
• 24:26
  really enjoy, like, like playing, like going skiing and surfing and spending
• 24:31
  time like out in water and nature.
• 24:34
  So it really just like, I've, I've, I've correct, I've done this massive
• 24:38
  like correction, I would say, not that anything was incorrect, but
• 24:42
  to me, I feel like way more in tune with like where I should be in life.
• 24:47
  Which is, you know, work is a big part of that and purpose, like, you know, being
• 24:52
  a, like, I love wedding photography.
• 24:54
  I love the wedding industry.
• 24:55
  I love providing for my family, but I balanced all that work career
• 24:59
  with like spiritual health, mental health, being, being more of like
• 25:03
  a complete, like, well rounded man.
• 25:05
  That's, that's, that's kind of like where I'm at right now.
• 25:07
  And I would say I'm, I'm like very, it's like the intermediate stages of that.
• 25:12
  Like, there was a time when I was like stumbling around in the dark, like.
• 25:17
  What is this empty feeling inside of me?
• 25:18
  And I've gotten a little bit more stable with that.
• 25:21
  Like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling really good about like the things I'm doing
• 25:24
  and time management where I'm spending my time, how I'm doing things and.
• 25:28
  But yeah, where's it going?
• 25:29
  I, I don't, that's, I'm actually working with a coach right now to figure that out.
• 25:34
  Cause I don't like, I don't know.
• 25:37
  And it's such, it's an exciting, I'll tell you, I'm really excited
• 25:41
  about, about working with this guy.
• 25:42
  And it's like really, really invigorating and bring a lot of life back to me.
• 25:46
  And I'm very, I'm very grateful for that.
• 25:48
  Becca: So, and this is part of why I really enjoyed our conversation.
• 25:52
  out in the U.
• 25:52
  S.
• 25:53
  because I think it is important for us to think about these things.
• 25:56
  And we live in a culture which is very much hustle, hustle, hustle,
• 26:00
  work, make loads of money, get richer, get richer, get richer.
• 26:03
  And especially in what I do, like there's people all the time, like how to make
• 26:06
  six figures, how to make seven figures.
• 26:08
  And I would class myself as almost being a little bit like anti
• 26:12
  hustle culture, because actually.
• 26:15
  You know, there's, there's things that we can do, but I always say to
• 26:19
  my wedding pros, like family comes first, like put family first, because
• 26:24
  when you look back over your life, you will regret the time you didn't spend
• 26:27
  with your kids over the time you'll regret that you didn't spend at work.
• 26:31
  Like let's, let's, let's make it real.
• 26:33
  Yes, we can be successful.
• 26:34
  Yes, we can make money.
• 26:35
  But actually, you know, where, where is that leading us?
• 26:38
  Is that, is that actually going to fulfill that feeling inside of us?
• 26:43
  Because at what point do we feel like we've made it or are we just
• 26:46
  always looking to the next thing?
• 26:48
  So.
• 26:48
  Where, what would you say your main drivers are now?
• 26:51
  Like, what would you say is your definition of success in your business?
• 26:55
  Ben: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 26:56
  But before we go there, I'm just gonna just, there might be some people out
• 27:00
  there that are listening and like, I agree, family's first, a hundred percent.
• 27:05
  My reaction to family first in, in, in the past was vicious.
• 27:12
  Like that, that phrase used to drive me nuts.
• 27:14
  It was very hurtful.
• 27:15
  It was very painful.
• 27:16
  It didn't make sense to me because the family I grew up in
• 27:19
  was very hurtful, very painful.
• 27:22
  So I literally didn't understand like the concept of family first.
• 27:25
  And if you're listening and you have a similar reaction
• 27:30
  to that, I'd say that's okay.
• 27:32
  Like, just keep on going, keep on exploring your, your safe place might
• 27:37
  be work right now, and that's okay.
• 27:39
  Your safe place might be in productivity right now.
• 27:42
  I'd say just, just keep on going because there's a lot of answers in that.
• 27:46
  And what you can discover about yourself through another, like, jacket or coat
• 27:53
  that you're gonna put on, let it teach you a lot of lessons because I agree
• 27:58
  with you, like, now, a hundred percent, I spend way more time, and I think
• 28:02
  people, like, spend way too much time working and they don't have a balance.
• 28:07
  And it's not like family first, friendships or time to yourself
• 28:11
  or like these other things.
• 28:13
  So I just had to make that note because.
• 28:15
  This is me and that's where I came from.
• 28:17
  And if you want to understand what success looks like for me, a huge
• 28:21
  part of my success was looking at my mental health and looking at my
• 28:24
  family origin and looking at the traumas that I experienced growing up.
• 28:29
  I had to look within in order to get to a place of what I now consider success.
• 28:35
  So success for success for me in the past was like just making a s*** ton of money.
• 28:40
  And I was, that was, that was the model that was handed to me.
• 28:43
  Like everybody.
• 28:45
  And success for me now is, you know, I saw this one meet this mean, and
• 28:50
  it was like, you know, like one of those internet things on Facebook and
• 28:53
  it was like, You know, a house, the old status was like a house and like
• 28:58
  a car and like something like that.
• 29:01
  I don't know.
• 29:02
  And it's like the new stat, the new, the new status and the new flex is
• 29:07
  flexibility, time, time and flexibility and, and having the freedom of that.
• 29:13
  And so right now I'd say success to me is having the ability to choose
• 29:19
  like my timeline, my schedule, the things that I want to be able to do.
• 29:23
  And money and careers is absolutely a part of that.
• 29:27
  I'm not just like it being irresponsible to my streams of income
• 29:33
  and what provide for my family.
• 29:34
  I'm very grateful for that.
• 29:36
  And I honor that, but it's, it's very much balanced with like the freedom.
• 29:41
  And flexibility.
• 29:43
  of being able to do the things that I'm curious about, the
• 29:48
  things that I enjoy doing.
• 29:51
  That, that, that's, that's what I would consider success right now.
• 29:56
  It's like a balance of like the things that I prioritize in life
• 30:00
  that are important to me and make me feel really fulfilled.
• 30:03
  Becca: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:04
  And I think what you shared is incredibly important because
• 30:07
  different people will have different reactions to different things.
• 30:10
  It's interesting.
• 30:11
  I was having a discussion recently on a training with my members where we
• 30:15
  had a money mindset coach coming in and she was talking about these phrases
• 30:18
  because we, we roll them off the tongue, like, you know, charge your worth.
• 30:23
  And we had a whole discussion around that because actually like, if you feel like
• 30:27
  you have no self, if you don't feel like you have self worth, like if you struggle
• 30:31
  with that, if you feel like you've come from a place of low self esteem, low self
• 30:35
  worth, then that phrase actually means Nothing to you, but then to someone else,
• 30:41
  that's what they need to hear, right?
• 30:42
  So for some of my wedding pros, they need to hear exactly what you've just shared.
• 30:47
  And for some of them, they need to hear, actually don't feel guilty when
• 30:51
  you stop work to go and spend time with your family because that's okay.
• 30:55
  And I think this is why these conversations are important.
• 30:57
  We need to be opening up and talking about these different perspectives and,
• 31:01
  and thinking some of these things through rather than just seeing this whole like
• 31:05
  shiny, you're like make six figures.
• 31:07
  Buy a designer handbag, buy a car, and then you'll be happy because
• 31:11
  like the reality is a whole lot deeper and there's a whole lot
• 31:13
  more levels than there is there.
• 31:17
  Now, one of the other things we talked about when we were out in person was how
• 31:21
  we don't necessarily talk enough in the wedding industry about future financial.
• 31:26
  planning.
• 31:27
  So we're very much like in the here and now we're hustling, we're building,
• 31:32
  we're spending time with our families, we're doing all the things, but we're
• 31:34
  not necessarily thinking forward.
• 31:38
  So how have you started to think about some of those things in
• 31:40
  your own life and business?
• 31:42
  Ben: Yeah, there's a few things there.
• 31:43
  First off, I think a lot of people don't talk about this because the
• 31:46
  mentality is, you know, we're the wedding industry or that we're photographers.
• 31:50
  So, you know, what's on stage is like, listen, I'm good at photography.
• 31:53
  That's what I'm going to talk about.
• 31:54
  Okay.
• 31:55
  And I respect that.
• 31:56
  That's that's, that's right.
• 31:58
  We're not necessarily here to talk about retirement and that's
• 32:00
  why there's financial advisors.
• 32:02
  But the, the, the, the conversation around money is just
• 32:04
  garbage in almost every area.
• 32:07
  Almost every area of life when it comes to money is there's a taking mentality.
• 32:11
  Even financial investors want your, they, they want a piece of your pie.
• 32:15
  Okay.
• 32:16
  So.
• 32:17
  When it comes to money, it's a really difficult conversation.
• 32:19
  I would definitely like start, like, the first thing is like, get, get
• 32:22
  good education, like find like valid resources on financial, like freedom
• 32:27
  and, you know, budgeting, like all the things you don't want to talk
• 32:32
  about, or you find like very mundane.
• 32:33
  I still like for the longest time, I had a very adverse reaction to numbers.
• 32:38
  I'm still working on my relationship to money.
• 32:40
  It's, it's, it's constantly a work in progress.
• 32:43
  You know, I went to this one retreat and like we they're like, Oh, talk to
• 32:47
  me about your relationship with money.
• 32:48
  I'm like, yeah, it's, it's pretty good.
• 32:50
  Yeah.
• 32:51
  I feel pretty good about money.
• 32:52
  Well, like an hour later I was beating the s*** out of a pillow that was
• 32:57
  supposed to be my, my, my money.
• 33:00
  Like monster that I realized was controlling my f***ing life So it's like
• 33:05
  it's it's really sneaky the conversation around money and finance and stuff And
• 33:08
  that's you know, it's very it's it's very like multi faced and it's it's it's
• 33:12
  complex but like most put put simply It's a, it's a really important conversation.
• 33:17
  And I think that anyone that's truly successful and does have
• 33:20
  a financial plan, it does think about things like retirement.
• 33:23
  They will talk to you about it.
• 33:25
  Some people might want to sell you something about it.
• 33:27
  Okay.
• 33:28
  Okay.
• 33:29
  Take that with a grain of salt.
• 33:30
  But I consider like one of like, I'm in a very fortunate position where
• 33:34
  like I've, I've made good money.
• 33:36
  I've been really smart about my financial decisions.
• 33:38
  I'm very conservative about how I spend my money.
• 33:40
  I don't, I don't spend.
• 33:42
  But I don't have, I don't go into like massive amounts of debt.
• 33:46
  And with that, Come the freedom to use my capital to do things
• 33:51
  like create Giphy, you know, like someone had to pay for that.
• 33:54
  I paid for this, my, my photo brand, this is feeling photography paid for that.
• 33:58
  I had that capital.
• 33:59
  I didn't have to like ask, ask for a loan from a bank.
• 34:01
  So it's, it's a, it's a complicated, it's a very complicated and
• 34:08
  very personal conversation.
• 34:11
  But, but I completely support the conversation.
• 34:16
  I absolutely think it's an important conversation because the veil of
• 34:21
  the industry and this, I don't think this is intentional, but the, the,
• 34:25
  the, the, the veil and the seduction of this industry is we create these
• 34:29
  beautiful f***ing photos and, and on the outside, it can seem like the person
• 34:33
  up on stage has their s*** together.
• 34:36
  Everything's great.
• 34:37
  I know like husband and wife teams that are like going through divorces and
• 34:40
  they're, they're still giving talks.
• 34:42
  To people about how to make it in this industry.
• 34:45
  They're not talking about that.
• 34:46
  And it's like very personal.
• 34:48
  I get it, but it's like, you gotta, you gotta really think about what
• 34:52
  you're listening to out there, guys, you gotta really start putting, put,
• 34:56
  put the things together, you know, like put, just put the pieces together.
• 35:01
  Like, like it, what one person's version of success could be might
• 35:05
  not be your version of success, where that person came from and is
• 35:09
  not going to be where you came from.
• 35:11
  It's not a copy and paste model out there.
• 35:15
  And it just, there's so much more to running a business than
• 35:21
  just creating pretty photos.
• 35:23
  Which is what the industry focuses a lot on.
• 35:25
  God, I don't think that's, that's like anyone's fault.
• 35:30
  And it's a numbers thing.
• 35:31
  It's all about numbers.
• 35:32
  What, what, what, what are people interested in?
• 35:36
  Well, they're interested in creating these amazing epic photos.
• 35:39
  They're beautiful.
• 35:40
  It's like looking at like, it's like looking at, excuse
• 35:42
  me, what I'm about to say.
• 35:44
  It's like looking at pornography.
• 35:45
  There's a lot of lust around it.
• 35:47
  And if it's not balanced with like, you know, It's just like dating, man.
• 35:53
  Your relationship to your, your profession is very much like
• 35:56
  dating and a healthy relationship.
• 35:58
  If you're just doing it just to get like a quick rise and a quick like
• 36:02
  reaction and like just thought if you're just focused on the beauty of
• 36:05
  it, that's what you're gonna get in.
• 36:07
  That's, that's gonna be what you harvest as a business owner, too.
• 36:12
  You got to have some substance behind there.
• 36:13
  You got to have some integrity.
• 36:15
  You got to have Well, you don't have to have any of these things, man.
• 36:18
  But, you know, having, having like having a business that's making
• 36:23
  money is probably a smart thing, like the conversation around money.
• 36:30
  necessary in order to, in order to foster successful business owners.
• 36:38
  So yeah, there's, there's a lot, it's complicated.
• 36:42
  I used to be very, very critical about this stuff.
• 36:44
  I still kind of am, but, but I'm starting to realize that like, you know, seeing
• 36:47
  it more through like a nonjudgmental point of view, it's just like, it's
• 36:50
  just a difficult conversation and it's a very personal conversation,
• 36:53
  but I will tell you at every single conference, there's at least one or two.
• 37:00
  Like people that are talking about business, I'd say, just start there.
• 37:04
  Go, go feed those people, like go and up those numbers.
• 37:08
  Be a part of that conversation.
• 37:09
  I, I sat through so many quote unquote boat, boring business conversations.
• 37:16
  Like I remember one, it was like back then it was a guy named Jared Bauman.
• 37:19
  He's not even in the wedding industry anymore.
• 37:21
  And that's all he talked about.
• 37:24
  And I, I, you know, I, I, I did like a one hour, like mentor session with
• 37:30
  him and it was mind blowing, man.
• 37:32
  So just, I would, I would say, just go there, go there, feed
• 37:35
  that conversation and like be a part of it and do that stuff.
• 37:40
  If it's boring to you, there's, there's probably, there's probably
• 37:45
  like a lot there for you to discover.
• 37:48
  You know, like again, going back to your point, you know, like, like just you
• 37:52
  know, ask, ask for what you're worth, you know, that's hilarious because, you
• 37:56
  know, one of the, one of the messages I got growing up in this industry a lot was
• 37:59
  like, you know, be authentic, be yourself.
• 38:02
  And the first question that came to mind, I was, who am I, how do
• 38:06
  I discover who I authentically am?
• 38:09
  And I saw what drove me nuts.
• 38:10
  I saw these people acting like other authentic people, which was like big
• 38:13
  personalities and being super loud.
• 38:16
  And it was just like, that's cool, I could just see the veil and it was just
• 38:21
  like, it was really hard for me to be a part of that because that, but I mean,
• 38:26
  it's, it's really, really important to, it's really important to just ask
• 38:32
  these, ask these questions around.
• 38:34
  yourself and look within because what the industry is painting,
• 38:38
  it's not, it's not always true.
• 38:40
  It's, it's very much about smoke and mirrors.
• 38:43
  Yeah.
• 38:44
  Yeah.
• 38:45
  Becca: Smoke and mirrors is a, is a phrase I use a lot about this industry.
• 38:50
  And I think we need to normalize some of these conversations.
• 38:52
  Just for people listening, like normalize talking to each other
• 38:57
  about like, what's the future plan?
• 38:58
  Like where's your business going next?
• 39:00
  Do you think you'll be in weddings forever?
• 39:01
  Have you got other ideas?
• 39:02
  Like what are you thinking about in 10 years time?
• 39:05
  We just don't talk about this stuff.
• 39:06
  We're talking about next week, next month, next year.
• 39:10
  But are we really having the conversations about, well, do I still want to be running
• 39:14
  around taking photos of weddings at 65?
• 39:17
  Or do I want to be doing something totally different?
• 39:20
  So we just need to, we, we need to normalize this stuff.
• 39:23
  And I hope that this episode today has just got people thinking about some of
• 39:27
  these different things, maybe sparking some different ideas and maybe thinking a
• 39:31
  bit differently about how they go forward.
• 39:34
  So thank you for your time.
• 39:35
  Thank you for being so open and vulnerable and sharing so deeply.
• 39:39
  I.
• 39:40
  I really do appreciate it.
• 39:41
  Now we always end the podcast with the same question.
• 39:43
  So I am going to ask you that as we conclude, which is this.
• 39:46
  What's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in your own business?
• 39:51
  Ben: Dude, I, I got, I gotta be honest, this question drives me nuts.
• 39:56
  I dislike this question very much.
• 39:58
  Becca: Yeah.
• 39:58
  I love it that you dislike it.
• 39:59
  Go for it.
• 40:00
  Tell me the answer anyway.
• 40:01
  Ben: That's cool.
• 40:02
  I, the reason I dislike it is because all the mistakes you make.
• 40:07
  are so important.
• 40:10
  And so I wouldn't, if I had the opportunity to go talk to myself 10
• 40:15
  years ago, I'd keep that door shut.
• 40:18
  I wouldn't whisper a single, it's like the butterfly effect, man.
• 40:21
  I would not have the life I have right now if my future self whispered into
• 40:26
  that, into that ear, get out there and make some mistakes, look within.
• 40:31
  And I wouldn't, this is very much who I was 10 years ago.
• 40:35
  So I just, I have to remind you of that.
• 40:37
  Yeah, that's been the driving mentality and I, and I, and I, I'm telling you
• 40:41
  that right now, make mistakes, look within, get loud, get big, disrupt
• 40:48
  some s***, ask difficult questions.
• 40:52
  Becca: I love it.
• 40:53
  I love it.
• 40:53
  I love that you are so like the opposite of everything.
• 40:56
  I love that you say my hate, my questions.
• 40:58
  I also love that you said you didn't want to go into weddings and you
• 41:01
  didn't want to disrupt your plan and start a photo booth company.
• 41:05
  Ben: Oh, I have a whole thing, man.
• 41:08
  No, yeah, you, you gotta watch out for the things that you say you don't want.
• 41:12
  I'll tell you guys, this is, I didn't, I didn't.
• 41:15
  My mentality growing up, dude, my, all the things I said I didn't want I have right
• 41:21
  now, dude, I'm driving a Dodge Ram truck.
• 41:26
  I used to drive Priuses.
• 41:28
  I own a boat.
• 41:30
  I own like a vacation home, dude, all this s***.
• 41:35
  Was I was like, f*** no, I don't want any of that too many responsibilities
• 41:39
  too much stuff too much stuff to think about man And you gotta you gotta watch
• 41:44
  out for the things that you say say no to it's important No, that was very
• 41:49
  very very important But yeah, you got, there's, there's another whole podcast.
• 41:54
  We can go there some other time.
• 41:58
  Becca: Absolutely.
• 41:59
  And I think we evolve, we change the things that we think we don't want.
• 42:02
  Like I always look back and I, when I was growing up, I looked at what my dad did.
• 42:06
  He was a business consultant, used to go to networking and
• 42:09
  I used to make fun of him.
• 42:11
  I was like, why are you doing this?
• 42:12
  Like it's not a proper job.
• 42:13
  You're just going and chatting to people and eating breakfast.
• 42:16
  And then one day I woke up and realized.
• 42:17
  I definitely just become my dad.
• 42:20
  I just,
• 42:22
  Ben: yeah, yeah.
• 42:22
  I was, I was about to say you're describing like, that's
• 42:24
  exactly my experience of you.
• 42:28
  Becca: And so I'm like, well, you know, like maybe we just
• 42:31
  don't know what our destiny is and maybe sometimes our dad does.
• 42:35
  Ben: No, we don't.
• 42:36
  Yeah.
• 42:37
  We don't let, let, let the universe.
• 42:39
  just give that gift to you, you know?
• 42:42
  Yeah, for sure.
• 42:43
  I've loved it.
• 42:43
  Becca: It's been such an interesting conversation.
• 42:45
  I'm glad that we could have this conversation again, a deeper
• 42:47
  level for people to listen to.
• 42:49
  Me too.
• 42:50
  Ben, if people want to find out more about your various businesses,
• 42:53
  about Giphy, where's the best place for them to find you?
• 42:56
  Ben: Man, that's a good question.
• 42:59
  So I, I'd say like maybe on Instagram, just like my personal page at bench and
• 43:02
  if the N C H E R N like Nancy, I F like Frank, it's like my personal stuff.
• 43:08
  And I'm starting to like be more like real to myself on there and speak about like,
• 43:13
  you know, what, what's important to me.
• 43:15
  I have like my, this is my, my wedding photography at, at this is feeling.
• 43:20
  On Instagram Giphy photo, you're not going to find any updates on there.
• 43:23
  We, we hardly update that it's, it's, but it is, the Instagram is at Giphy photo.
• 43:27
  So G I F Y Y Y P H O T O.
• 43:31
  And then like a little, like a little bit, if you are interested in like the healing
• 43:35
  work and like, I I'm a part of this men's work industry or movement, whatever
• 43:41
  you want to call it, there's a, there's an Instagram called head heart man.
• 43:45
  And that's at head heart man, and that's some crazy s*** there.
• 43:51
  So prepare yourself, take a few deep breaths before you listen to that stuff.
• 43:55
  But it's honest.
• 43:56
  And yeah, if you're called to it, cool, reach out to me.
• 44:00
  Becca: Fabulous.
• 44:00
  Thank you so much for your time.
• 44:02
  I will ensure that I put all of those links in the show notes
• 44:05
  so that people can find you.
• 44:07
  And I hope that we get to be in person again, taking photos at your photo
• 44:11
  booth somewhere, somehow very soon.
• 44:14
  Ben: Me too.
• 44:14
  Thanks so much.
• 44:15
  I really appreciate that.
• 44:17
  Becca: I love that conversation.
• 44:18
  I told you we were going to go deep.
• 44:20
  I told you we were going to go to some interesting places and I hope that
• 44:23
  you've enjoyed thinking a little bit differently about some of those things.
• 44:26
  But if there has been things that have come up for you that maybe have
• 44:30
  made you ask deeper questions, reach out to someone, talk about it, and if
• 44:35
  you need anything, reach out to me.
• 44:37
  I'll speak to you soon.
• 44:37
  See you next time.