Latest / Minor Mischief Podcast / The Heartbreaking End of James Bulger

Transcript

The Heartbreaking End of James Bulger · Minor Mischief Podcast

• Kiki George: What happens when a toddler goes missing and all eyes and fingers point to 10-year-old friends? It's unbelievable, it's unimaginable, it's incomprehensible, but it doesn't make it any less true. This is the Minor Mischief Podcast, and this is the heartbreaking end of James Bulger. Welcome back here, my good friends. Hope our friendship doesn't end. Don't forget to share the show with someone that you love. And then please leave our review. Just because you're back with me here, my good friends. Welcome back. Welcome back to another episode of the Minor Mischief Podcast. I'm your host and homegirl for the time being, Mrs. Kiana Amir, and thank you for hanging out with me. Today's story Today's story I think is probably the most heartbreaking that we've done. It's like very tragic and it does detail the gruesome death of an innocent two year old boy. I knew when starting this podcast we would run into some troubling cases and subject matter, but I wanted to just put that out there in case the details of today's case may make you feel uncomfortable. Now, y'all know me, I'm naturally a lighthearted jokester person, so I'll try to keep it cute, but I just wanted to put that disclaimer out there, but let's get into today's story, shall we? We shall Welcome to Brixton, I'm in the party with barbies and drillers. How to talk about dingers, they ain't got dingers. For today's story, we are heading across the pond to Merseyside, England, Cheerio. We've been traveling a lot here lately, haven't we? And we're also headed back to the 1900s. So Merseyside England is an urban area in northwest England. It hosts a population of about 1.5 million people. And per our good friend Google, because you know we love her, is the home of the Beatles because Liverpool is nestled inside of Merseyside. I wish I could tell you what any of that meant. I wish I could tell you what any of that meant, but I have not yet been to England. I would love to go though. Cause those jacket pot the jacket potatoes, they look good. Not with the tuna and the beans, but with the butter and cheese and a little salt and pepper, sour cream and chives if you're feeling fancy, you know? That's what that jacket potato, it really looks good. That's what I want. Leave the tuna and beans off. In Merseyside, England, we meet Robert Thompson and John Venables, who are our mischief makers, and James Bulger, who is the star of our show, but also unfortunately our victim. John Venables was born on August 13th, 1982, to his parents Neil and Susan Venables. He has at least one older brother named Mark and a younger sister named Michelle. Now, both of his siblings had some developmental delays. So his brother was said to be older and his sister was said to be younger. And John was just in the middle and you know, his he had his brother who had like this cleft palette and you know, had some delays from that, and then he had his sister with some developmental delays, and then there's just him in the middle, like, is anybody gonna pay me any attention? John was described as an easygoing child, but also an easily influenced in child. You know the type. The ones that fell in with the questionable group of friends and becomes them, that's John, allegedly. His teachers told a different story though. They said that John would do strange things, like rock back and forth in his chair, holding onto his desk, moaning and making odd noises. So he's sitting in the back of the class, and his teacher's like, you know what? You need to sit right here, right next to my desk. You know the you know the type. You know the kid. That's just like dang, always sitting next to the teacher's desk. I think I landed by the teacher's desk at least once in my life. So at first, John's violent. Was self-inflicted. Like, you know, he would like scratch at himself and tear his own clothing. When his teacher moves him up by her desk, he started knocking things off her desk or like banging his head into her desk. He would roam around the classroom tearing down the displays and artwork of other students. And he would stand on his desk and throw things at other children. And one time he approached another classmate. I don't know what the backstory is, but The tale is that John kind of walked up behind this boy and like put his ruler to his neck and started like choking him with the ruler. And they said it took two full-grown adults to get John off that boy. And he was subsequently removed from the school. John, you know, he was a hyper kid. He had a hard time concentrating. And because of his educational issues, he had problems making and keeping friends, and then he was often bullied for being different. I'm sensing a theme here. But I'm a I I'll go on. I would like us all to collectively stop judging or bullying people that we don't understand. Like let's just treat others how we want to be treated. Like what is the what's the point? Okay, you don't know that person, you don't understand them. Maybe they smell funny, whatever. Leave them alone. No one says you have to talk to them, but it also doesn't hurt to just be kind either. It really does not. But I digress. John was said to be a kind hearted kid, despite all of that. And he had a fairly average upbringing. But because he had a hard time like making friends and keeping friends, he desperately sought approval from his pairs and he would do anything to get it. And so due to, you know, him kind of failing his classes and stuff like that, he was held back a year and placed into a new class where he met Robert Thompson. Robert Thompson was born on August 23rd, 1982, in Liverpool, England. Another August baby. And he was born to his parents, Robert and Ann Thompson. I don't follow astrology. It's just not my thing. I'm not into it. But I feel like people born in August are a different breed. I'm not even Shout out to y'all though. But I feel like y'all are a different breed of people. No shades. Now, Robert's family, they were a little different than John's family. And when I say a little, I mean a lot. Robert's childhood was full of drama. What did Portia Williams say? You are the drama and the chorama. He had it pretty rough and was said to have a very troubled family background, full of aggression, violence, and substance abuse from a very young age. He was the fifth out of six boys. And Robert's dad, like he would beat his mom. He would beat her mercilessly, they said. And then at some point he's just like, you know what? You've had six of my kids. I've done beat you enough. So I'm gonna hit the road, you know? And so he moved out and just abandoned the family. And so because of that, you know, his mom ended up moving into like public housing. And his older brothers were the men in the house. They started bullying the younger brothers into submission. And you know, his mom was working, she turned to alcohol. And she, you know, was kind of an aggressive alcoholic. So she would g you know, get at the boys and stuff. And sometimes things became overwhelming. So she attempted suicide a few times with pills and tried to overdose. But eventually she was just like, you know what, I'll just keep drinking. And she turned to drinking as a means of as a means to an end. It was published that Robert's relationship with his younger brother Douglas was very toxic and very tumultuous. And not in a regular sibling bickering kind of way. But in a very concerning way that eventually led to both Douglas and Robert going through rounds of therapy to heal their relationship. Teachers noticed how John and Robert seemed to kind of bring out the worst in one another and made efforts to keep them apart. Although they can keep them like separate in the classroom, there's nothing they could do when the boys decided to, I don't know, skip school. No one really saw them as being violent. They were just troublesome, you know? Like they would skip class, they would act out in class, they would You know, do these things, but no one thought that they were violent per se. And John, you know, he's just like, I don't really like to do my work. Robert, he wasn't like rambunctious or aggressive, but he just, you know, he was one of those kids that just didn't do the work. He didn't do the work. And then when they would ask him about things, baby, he lied. He was like sincere on Love Island. They said Robert was a liar. He was anything but sincere. Like, you know what I'm saying? And he somehow was able to manipulate other students into doing his dirty work. And Robert, you know, he was he was said to be mature for his age. And John was said to be immature for their age. So they were like a match maiden, you know. So it's February twelfth, nineteen ninety-three. And while we in America were still reeling from Oprah's candid first interview with Michael Jackson, we were reeling because Carmen Electra decided that she was talented enough to release a debut album. I mean if Eddie Murphy can do it and Tyra Banks can do it, you know, why not? The people of England were playing Katie Lang's Constant Craving constantly, and Liverpool and Liverpool and surrounding areas were gripped by a hot new soap opera called Channel Four. So on this day, I guess Robert and John they walk into the schoolhouse and they were just like, you know what seems more fun than being in the schoolhouse? Being outside of the schoolhouse. And they were hanging out and they skipped school. They went to a local mall called the New Strand Shopping Center. And that's located in Boodle, Merseyside, or Bootle, Boodle? I don't know. I'm gonna call it Boodle. B-O-O-T-L E Boodle. which was 20 minutes from Merseyside. So the Strand Shopping Center is a two-story plaza that is home to over a hundred shops. Now it's February twelfth, nineteen ninety-three. It's frigid, it's cold outside, you know? But they're just like, let's brave the cold weather and get into some stuff. Something tells me this was Robert's idea, but that is unconfirmed. That is just my speculation. Listen, I cut school as much as the next person growing up, but I will say that nothing good comes from skipping school or sneaking out at night. You just put yourself in danger of getting into trouble and no one knows where you are. So they skip school and they head to the shopping center, and they're just like, you know what? my gosh, this is giving my childhood. I used to do this too. they're just like, Okay, we're at the mall. We're gonna have a fun day of shoplifting. So they're walking through the stores and they're picking up candy and shoving it into their pocket. Robert apparently liked to play with dolls. It was something that he didn't like when people teased him about. so he stole a troll doll because, you know, that was the thing. And they weirdly steal a can of blue paint and some batteries. And so they're just walking through the mall eating and stealing and They look at each other and they're just like, you know, shoplifting is fun and all, but it doesn't feel risky enough. It feels like we need to up the ante a little bit. You know, like this is simple stuff, pickpocketing and we don't need to do that. We need to do something more dangerous. So they sit and they're watching people walk by and they're just like How cool would it be if we, I don't know, took a kid, right? If we just grabbed a kid, a baby or somebody, and we just walk them out to the street and just push them into oncoming traffic. And they're just like, yeah, that's a great idea. That's a really great idea. Like, Robert, you've outdone yourself. John, you have outdone yourself. It's a great idea. And so they're just like, all right, let's find a kid. So they go and they find this little girl. out of the department store TJ Hughes. And so they start walking with her toward the exit. And her mother whipped her head around and was like, Unhand my baby. And she goes and snatches her child from them. She's like, who like she snatches her child and I guess she gives them a look and I guess because they're kids, she's just like, you know, that's not harmful, I guess. I don't know. Because I'm sorry, anybody try to walk away with my baby, I'm calling the police. I'm calling mall security, top flight security of the world, Craig. Because why are you walking away with my baby? That's just me personally, but you know, this is not about me. So she snatches her baby back and they go their separate ways. So at the same time, Denise Bulger and her two year old son James Bulger. Now I could be pronouncing it wrong. I'm pronouncing it Bulger, but it could be Bulger, which sounds more correct, but I'm gonna say Bulger. Because that I don't know. That just that's how it's spelled, right? So Denise and her two year old son, James Bulger, they're doing some shopping. James Patrick Bulger was born on March 16th, 1990, in Kirby, England, to his parents, Ralph and Denise Bulger. James appeared to be their first child, and Kirby, England is about six miles northeast of Liverpool at the time. And it was called Baby Beirut due to the like staggering unemployment rates and the poverty that followed. So that area at this point in time, they were going through like an economic crisis because people were losing jobs left and right. This was in the nineties, and I just feel like we are not far enough away from what happened in the nineties. I'm like, it was almost forty years ago, but my gosh, we have learned nothing. But so yeah. They're from Kirby and it was called Baby Beirut because of the just economic crisis that they were in. James was described as a live wire and a rambunctious little one who stayed for Thomas the train. And they said he had a healthy curiosity. He was your average two-year-old boy. Like he liked to play, he liked to have fun, he liked to, you know, do what he likes to do. On this day, Denise and her sister-in-law, well, it was her brother's fiance and her niece. they set out to the Strand Shopping Center and they're just like, okay, it's Friday. The crowd is usually smaller on a Friday. You know, it's a couple days before Valentine's Day. And let's just go out there because chances are there'll be less of a crowd. And they get there and they're just like, okay, we were wrong. Chances are there is the exact same crowd that there was any other day. And so they're just like, you what, we're here. Let's just get let's just get it done. We came out of Kirby. Like, let's just live our life. And so they're doing some shopping and they're Shopping through the afternoon, and they're just like, okay, I have to go over here and I have to go over here. So they split up. They're just like, okay, I'll go over to the butcher. I'm gonna go over to the supermarket. We'll meet back downstairs in 30 minutes. And so they go their separate ways. So Denise decides to stop into A.R. Tim's butcher on the first floor to get some chops for her husband. It just said chops in the article. I'm like, was it lamb chops, pork chops? What kind of chops are we talking? so she went out to get some chops for her husband's dinner. And her sister-in-law, who was unnamed in the report, ran into Tesco supermarket, like I mentioned before. So James, you know, he's restless because he's like, my gosh, we have been out all afternoon shopping, like, and Denise is like, Okay, sweetheart, it's our last stop before we head out. Like, just chill out. It's fine. Just stand by mommy, okay? So she's standing at the butcher counter, she's holding his hand, she places her order. And so the butcher is just like, All right, I got you all wrapped up, head on over to the cashier. She walks over to the cashier. Let's go of James' hand for two like a minute max to get the money out of her purse and pay the cashier. So at the same time, because Robert and John are outside of the store window looking at them, as soon as she let go of James' hand, they start tapping at the window with some candy that they stole. And James looks at them and is just like, he Yeah, I want candy. And so he walks toward them and they get him outside and they are like bingo, we got action. We got the kids. So around 3 42 PM, CCTV footage captures John holding James' hand and Robert walking in front of them as they exit the shopping center. And around this same time, a panic Denise is just like, my gosh, where's my kid? She's looking around the store. Where did he wander off? Okay, he's not here. So she's alerting security like my baby's missing. And please take this as my trigger warning if you'd like to skip ahead, look for the chapter with the investigation. And I'm gonna give you some music to give us a chance to do so now. Alright, so listen. John and Robert are walking away with James and witnesses say that they saw the boy walking with him and like they were kicking him and they were shoving him and jacking him up and like just really roughing him up, right? And so a lot of them looks you know, they look at this happening and they're just like, Well, maybe those are just his older brothers, so we're not gonna interfere. So they walk over to a canal, they flip James over and drop him on his head. The whole time James is crying. He's sobbing. He's asking for his mother. And now he's bleeding from his forehead. So they're just like, crap, you know, let's just let's keep walking. And so they're walking along and a woman notices them and she looks at James and sees the bruise on his head. And she's like, Hey, is everything okay? And they're just like, he fell. We're taking him home. And they put the hood on him and they keep walking. And so as they're walking, People are asking questions like, What's going on here? What's going on here? And one woman even admitted to seeing Robert kick James in the rib cage and just kind of closed her curtains because she was like, I don't know what's going on out there, but I don't want no parts. So the boys continue walking and they stop and they're just like stopping occasionally to hit James, shove him around, push him onto the ground, mush his face into the concrete. And so this elderly woman sees them and she walks up to them and she's What the What the deuce? Sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. She's like, What is going on? And so they tell her, they're just like, we found him at the bottom of this hill and we're just taking him to the police station. He appears to be lost. And she's like, Okay, listen, go right to the police station. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Like, go, right? And they're like, Yes, miss. She goes along their way and they go along their way. And as she's, you know, going, she keeps looking back because at this point she is concerned. She's like, What in the world? But another woman approaches her and she's like, It's fine. I heard the little one laughing a moment ago. So they both shrug and they're just like, All right, let's go on about our day. And so they're stopped by another woman who is out with their daughter, and she's like, Hey, what's going on? He's bleeding, he's crying, and they're just like, Yeah. She runs so they run her the same story. They're just like, Yeah, we found him. We're taking him to the police station. She's like, Mm mm, I don't trust you. She said, How about I take him down to the police station myself? So she grabs James' hand. And she looks to another woman on the street and she and she's like, Hey, can you keep an eye on my daughter while I take this young man to the police station? And the other lady was just like, I'm sorry, I'm no babysitter, my dear. And my dog does not like children, so I can't really help you. And so she looks back at the boys and she's just like, Okay, go straight to the police station with him. Do you understand? And they're like, Yes, miss, and they keep it pushing. They walk into two stores with James, nothing. Run into some older kids from school who are just like, Hey, who's this little boy? And they're just like, this is Robert's brother, you know, we're just taking him home. And they're just like, Well, why is he all bloodied up like that then? And they're just like, you know, where he fell, not a problem. They're just like, Okay, that's suspicious, but if that's what you say. And so the boys walk a total of four kilometers or two point five miles, you know, for the Americans, to a railroad track, and it's now about five forty five PM. And it makes me wonder if their own parents were looking for them. Cause I'm like, surely you should have been home from school by now. While at the railroad track, the boys take a moment to ponder. They're just like, okay, should we really just take him down to the police station? And unfortunately, they were just like, mm, nah, let's get rid of him. So they shoved James down to the ground. And that blue spray that they the paint that they bought earlier, that they stole earlier, excuse me, they splashed that directly into James' eyes. James falls backwards onto the railroad track and they're punching him and hitting him. They're grabbing stones and they're hitting him with the stones. They take the batteries, they shove them into his mouth. Some articles say that they shoved the batteries into his anal cavity, but they did not retrieve any from there. So then they pick up a 22-pound iron bar and they're hitting James over the head with it until he finally stops moving. Robert and John then laid James' body across the railroad track. And they strategically place him so that the moment a train comes, it would just rip him in two, and that would be listed as his cause of death. They would say he wandered away, met an untimely end when he was struck by a train, case closed. Spoiler alert, the train did what they intended for it to do. And no, I will not be elaborating. James's total attack lasted for over two hours, and he was hit Over 42 times suffering 10 skull fractures. Back at the shopping center, a full sweep is being conducted for James well into the evening and night. When the shopping center closed, police ordered them to reopen so that they can make sure that James was not like in a bathroom stall, or there was like a photo printer in there. And the worker for the photo place said that they had these little like cubbies that people could climb into because. that's where they would store pictures. So she let them in there to check in there. They checked all the bathrooms, checked all the stalls, nothing. The next day, police receive an eyewitness tip that James was reportedly found in the canal because there were two boys who found him. They head over to the canal, nothing. Because at this point, the people that they were telling, like, hey, we found him at this canal, we found him in the bottom of this hill. They're just like, wait, there were two boys with this little kid that said he was lost. Like, you need to look into them. And so they start looking at Denise because they're just like, okay, none of this is making sense because how could you lose your child in less than two minutes? And so they start questioning Ralph and Denise, demanding answers. And then the CCTV footage finally comes up and they see James walking with two young boys. So Ralph turns to Denise and he's just like, Thank God. He's Ralph said, quote, I looked at Denise and smiled with relief. He's gonna be all right, Denise, I said. He's with two young kids. He's gonna be all right. So police take the footage and they set out to figure out who these boys were. So it's now February 14th, 1993. my gosh, it's Valentine's Day. This is yay. And so four children are playing on these railroad tracks, and they're just like, there's a broken doll over there. And so they walk closer because now they're seeing fabric, now they're seeing like weird colored stones, and they're just like, okay, that's weird. And so they get up closer to it and they realize this is not a doll. And so they run down an embankment to the closest police station, which was only two hundred yards from where James is found. He was found half naked, his bottoms were completely off, and he was severed in two. Police on Merseyside say that two-year-old James Bulger, who disappeared from a shopping precinct at the weekend, was horribly murdered and then dumped on a railway line. They say that someone must know the identity of the two boys who took James from the precinct. Head of the Merseyside Police Serious Crime Squad, Albert Kirby, reported to the scene saying, I've dealt with many murders, but I've never seen the extent of the injuries that were inflicted on someone incapable of defending themselves. You couldn't think the person responsible for this was a child. So the police at this point, they begin working backwards. Okay, what do we know? We know that there's footage of James leaving the mall with two young boys. Witnesses saw him with these boys walking down the street, but they're still like, who are these? Boys, until. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Susan Venables and one of her friends, I forgot to write her name down. I do this every week. So we'll say her unnamed friend, Martha. So Susan Venables and her friend, they're, you know, hanging out at Susan's house. They're having tea and biscuits or whatever. And she looks at John's jacket and she sees that there's like this weird blue paint on the sleeve. And so she kind of files it in the back of her mind. And she's like, all right, Susan, this he was great. Thank you. You know, I'm gonna head home and do what English people do. And she walked away. And she's going along her day. And more details are starting to come out about this crime and and what was found. And so she's just like, the boy was found with blue paint on him. John's jacket had blue paint on it. He was seen with two little boys. John's a little boy. And so she immediately calls 999. And she is just like, yeah, so my friend, her son, he has this weird blue stuff on his he has blue paint on his sleeve. And the jacket seems to match what you guys are looking for. I think you should check him out. And so now it's Thursday, February 18th. nineteen ninety three, when police arrive on the Venables doorstep with some questions and a warrant for John. And so Susan at this point, she's realizing that her son had skipped school because she knew, like, by this point, she's like, wait, he skipped school on Friday. And so she answers the door and she's just like, I knew you'd be here. I can't believe that this little bugger skipped school on Friday and then had the nerve to show back up home with paint all over his jacket. And the officers ask Susan, they're just like, Have you thrown away the jacket? And she's like, No, it's right here. And she gives it to them. And they're just like, interesting. Because as soon as they look at the jacket, they see a small bloody handprint on it. And so John yanks the coke back and he starts crying hysterically. I don't want to go to prison, Mom. I didn't kill the baby. And he's crying and crying, It's that Robert Thompson. He always gets me into trouble. And so they're just like, hey, hey, John, yeah, you're coming down to the police station with us. So they arrested him and they were gone down to the station with them. And I'm not gonna lie, that kind of irritated me a little bit because I'm just like, you both did this together. Like, there are so many stories where like friends do it together, and then as soon as they get caught, they flip on each other. And I'm like, Were y'all ever really friends? Like, let's be so for real. But my mother always told me growing up, like, friends can take you but they can't bring you back. And I guess that's what she meant, 'cause my gosh. So at first, police didn't even think that Robert Thompson and John Venables were the killers. Like, yeah, they had been brought in after someone recognized them on the surveillance footage. Yes, there was this paint on them, but they're still at the point where they're just like, These two are ten and eleven years old. They're small, they're young, they look more like frightened little boys than people responsible for such a horrific Crime. But they're just like, still, let's see this all the way through. So the boys were separated and taken to different police stations for questioning. John was interviewed at Lower Lane Police Station while Robert was taken to Walton Police Station, just a short distance away from where James Bulger had been murdered. What happened next though did catch the attention of investigators. Both boys seemed overwhelmed by the experience, but John in particular seemed strangely fascinated by the forensic process. So as they were taking his fingerprints, he's asking questions like, are fingerprints invisible? Can you find them? Do they stay on everything you touch? If it touched another person's skin, would it be on there? Like if you drag somebody really hard, do your fingernails stay in their skin? And so they're just looking at him like, okay, odd line of questioning, but go off. And so they collect fingerprints, blood samples, hair, and scrapings from beneath both boys' fingernails as part of their investigation. And then a shopkeeper from the strand. contacted police after realizing that those boys were inside of her store on the day that James disappeared. And so officers responded and compared the fingerprints that she c had at the store to well, I guess that doesn't kind of make sense. But officers go and they dust, you know, for prints, which I'm like y there had to be thousands of prints at that mall. I'm just gonna go with the story I was told. So they were dusting for prints. One of the prints matched John. So they can confirm that John had, in fact, been in that store. And suddenly what started up as like a routine follow up was like, no, we're building a case here. So Detective Constable Bob Jacobs and Sergeant Phil Roberts quickly realized that interviewing two 10 year old boys accused of murder was not going to be easy. So they questioned Robert first. He was sitting beside his mother Anne, along with legal representation. And before investigators even got into the case, they were just like, Okay, are you gonna tell us the truth or are you gonna lie? And he's No, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Like, it's cool, it's cool. And so Robert admitted that he and John had skipped school that Friday and gone to the strand. But he was just like, Listen, we're just there, we were wandering around the shops, and then after that we left for the library and then we head home. And so then he volunteered some information that detectives never even asked him. He was like, But you know what? I remember seeing that kid with his mother. while me and John were riding the escalator. And so they the detectives look at each other because they're just like in such a crowded mall. Cause remember the mall was unusually crowded that day. They're like, how could he take note of this one little kid and his mother? There had to be hundreds of kids there. And so they're just like, okay, let's continue questioning him. And so as they're continuing, they're comparing notes with the detectives questioning John. So the detective questioning John, his name was Detective Dale, and they immediately begin to notice in comparing notes that there are inconsistencies all up and through their stories. So when detectives confronted Robert about the contradiction, he didn't defend his friend. He was just like, you know what? Maybe John did do something. I don't know. Maybe John had convinced the little boy to follow them and then lost him somewhere. Like Robert claim he was like, I I would like I didn't even know he had that boy's hand because I wasn't looking behind me. They were walking behind me. And so the officers point out, they're just like, Well, Robert, your jacket does match this jacket here from this surveillance footage. And he shrugs and he's just like, Listen, lots of people have jackets like mine. So when they mention John's jacket, they're just like, you know, John's jacket is very recognizable. And then Robert's just like, I mean, he wasn't walking with me now, was he? He was behind me. And so the way these boys keep throwing each other under the bus is flooring me. My gosh. So detectives are just like, all right, let's cut this. We believe that you and John left the shopping center with James. And Robert goes, Who says? And so the detective goes, We says. And Robert's like, No, I never left with him. So they're questioning him and questioning him. And Robert's just like, Well yeah, because John was holding his hand. And without realizing it, he just literally put the pieces of the puzzles together. Like they're just like, Okay, so you just told me that John was holding James' hand, but you said that y'all never saw James. Y'all left and went to the library and you didn't even know what they were doing behind you. Is that correct? And so Robert just broke down crying. He goes, I never touched him. I never touched the boy. I never touched the boy. And he admitted eventually that he had been leading James around and swore up and down. they let him go now at church. And I'm like, why are you lying on the church? Robert, I guess you wouldn't be the first though, honestly. By the end of the day, detectives inform Robert they're just like, Listen here, you're not going home. And he's just like, Well, why do I have to stay here when John's the one that took the baby? They're just like, Listen, you're staying here, you're not going home. Okay. Enjoy yourself. Have a lollipop. Good night. So the following morning, Robert changed his story again. At this point, he's claiming that John had thrown the the blue paint into James' eye near the railway track and that he had no idea what happened after that. But he didn't realize detectives had another piece of evidence, those freaking double-A batteries that they stole. And so when they mentioned the batteries, Robert like the color left from his face. And he's just like, I didn't steal those. And so investigators, they're just like, okay, that's making you uncomfortable us asking about the things that you stole, huh? And so finally, after asking, Hours of questioning and after watching her son repeatedly change his story, Robert's mother Anne finally leaned over and she was just like, Baby, it it'll just be easier if you told the truth. And so Robert admits to everything. He says that John threw the first brick and then another, and then struck James with a heavy metal object, then a stick. According to Robert, John was completely out of control while Robert desperately tried pulling him away. Detectives were like, We're not falling for none of that. If John had done all of this, why were you covered in blood? And Robert was just like, I'm gonna end up getting all the blame, huh? So he told his mother then, he's just like, Mom, I swear I tried to save James. And he was just like, That's why I left the rose at his memorial, so that he would know that I tried to help him. Why aren't y'all listening to me? my gosh. Over the next day, Robert admitted to touching James' body, but insisted it was only because he was trying to move him off the railway tracks. He claimed he stopped once he saw the amount of blood because he didn't want his mother getting angry about ruining his clothes. Throughout every interview, Robert seemed less and less concerned about James and far more concerned that John would receive less blame than he did. And then finally Robert goes, Go ask our teachers who's worse, me or John. She'll definitely tell you it's John. So then the detective were just like, listen. James was found with his pants down. And Robert's just like, I'm not no damn pervert. I don't know why that line made me laugh so hard. He was just like, I'm not no damn pervert. I promise you that. I may do a lot of things, but I ain't do that. And so by the end of the interviews, Robert's just like, okay, I did hit James with a brick. And finally, he was just like, okay, yes, I did it. We did it. We did it. Meanwhile, back at the other police station, John was in there ugly crying, honey. He was just like, Okay, yeah, we were there. But we never got a kid. Yes, we did cut school, but I haven't touched a boy. I ain't touched no boy. And then he was just like, Mom, I promise you, okay, maybe we did touch him. But then we left him by the canal. Then he was like, Okay, I did kill him. What about his mom? Can you tell her I'm sorry? And they're just like, finally, a confession. So from there, John really just admitted to taking James by the hand, taking him outside, and just they went over everything that I went over earlier. By the end of the interviews, one thing became painfully clear. Neither boy was willing to accept full responsibility. But together, their confessions and their contradictions had given investigators enough to piece together what really happened on. That day. And so on Saturday, February 20th, 1993, John Venables and Robert Thompson were both charged with the abduction and murder of James Bulger. At that time in English history, children between the ages of 10 and 14 could only be tried for criminal behavior if the prosecution could prove the offender had known what they were doing was seriously wrong. And both boys were seen by psychologists to prove they understood the severity of what they had done. It was important to establish that they understood the permanence of death. Which would affect their understanding of the severity of this crime. So basically, if they can get them to admit that they knew that by doing this they were killing James and James would not come back, and this was a bad thing to do, then they could try them for the crime. When the news of the arrest broke, the residents of Merseyside were flored. They were just like, How could primary school age children do something so awful? And then at school, you know, the kids are eating this up. Like they're sitting at John's desk and they're sitting at Robert's desk and they're just like, we're murderers. We're sitting in murderer chairs. Kids are kids? Okay. they fa their families, they began receiving hate mail and death threats. And one article says that they even had to deal with angry mobs surrounding their house. John and Robert's booking information was sealed from the public, and they were given alternate names to protect them while they were awaiting trial. On May 14th, 1993, both John and Robert appeared at the Liverpool Crown Court to enter their pleas of not guilty. Their case would be tried in Preston, which was closer to the boys secure units. The whole time, baby John was hyperventilating, okay? He could not participate in the police lineups because he was hyperventilating. He could not be questioned anymore because he was hyperventilating. And both the prosecution and defense worried about his ability to participate in the trial. On November first, nineteen ninety-three, the boys' trial began overseen by Judge Sir Michael Moreland. Because their names could not be revealed, they were addressed as child A, which is Robert Thompson, and child B, which is John Venables. Which didn't really make sense to a whole lot of people because it was like an open case. Like there were bystanders, like the court was open. So they're just like, why are we going through all of this work to cover their identities when I can literally sit in this courtroom and look at them? There will be a newspaper article published. with their faces, like let's be so for real. But that's neither here nor nor there. Imagine. None of the Thompson family showed up to court in support of Robert, so he was accompanied by an appointed social worker. Robert's demeanor was described as nonchalant and he had gained a bit of weight during his time locked up. And he spent most of the trial yawning, staring at his shoes, or just staring blankly ahead. John was supported by all of his family and all of James's family was there as well, except for Denise, who did not attend the trial because she was seven months pregnant at the time and the emotional strain was just too much for her. When the trial finally began, Robert's defense team came out swinging. His attorney David Turner argued that there was no way his client could receive a fair trial. By that point, newspapers had already convicted both boys in the court of public opinion. Headlines described as monsters, demons, evil incarnate. And he's just saying that basically painted like bad image of them, so how could they possibly stand a fair trial when everybody thinks that they're like the Antichrist? Mr. Turner also asked the judge to keep two of the most graphic crime scene photos away from the jury, arguing they were so disturbing they could unfairly influence the verdict. The judge was like, Absolutely not. John Venable's attorney, Brian Walsh, took a quieter approach. He made far fewer objections as the trial got underway. The prosecution led by Richard Henriquez had one major hurdle to overcome. Because Robert and John were only ten years old, it wasn't enough for them to prove that they committed the crime. They also had to prove that they understood what they were doing and what they were doing was serious and morally wrong and deadly. Mr. Henriquez told the jury they could reasonably conclude that both boys knew exactly how wrong it was to take a toddler from his mother and subject him to unimaginable violence. And then the evidence started pouring in. As jurors were handed crime scene photographs, many became visibly emotional. One by one, witnesses r retraced James Bulger's final journey. The group of people that I mentioned earlier that saw them walking by, like the people at the shops, the people on the road, the lady on the bus, the lady with the curtains, they were called the Liverpool 38, and all of them testified. And as they were testifying, they kept getting questioned because they're just like, okay, well, what you're telling me now does not match what you told me when I questioned you the first time. And they were just like, at this point, we have had months to ponder and to think. They're just playing the day back in their head because when you're when you're going through something is one thing, but when you're past it and you go through it and then all of the things start adding up, they're just like, our stories aren't changing because we're lying. Our stories are changing because we're now understanding the gravity of what we saw that day because we're seeing these crime scene photos and things. Then came the physical evidence. The CTTV footage from the Strand Shopping Center. The bloodstained bricks and stones, the blue paint, the metal bar, James's bloody clothing. Forensic experts explained that James had suffered so many injuries that they could not identify a single fatal blow. But one piece of evidence was impossible to explain away. A bloody f a bloody shoe print left on James' face matched Robert Thompson's shoe. So how's that for Mr. I Never Touched Him and John did all the work? So many people testified against him. Like teachers testified, psychiatrists testified. It just went on and on and on and on. And the whole time John is sobbing hysterically. And Robert's just like, you know it, it is what it is. By the time closing arguments arrived, both sides were telling two very different stories. The prosecution argued this wasn't a case of one boy following another. This was a joint attack. They said Robert and John acted together from the moment they lured James away from the strand until they left him dying on the railway track. They lied together, they walked together, they ride together, they died together. Bad boys for life. And according to the prosecution, they assaulted James together. The defense saw it differently. Neither boy had a history of being violent. Yes, they'd skipped school. Yes, they'd stolen from shops, but murder? Their lawyers argued that this was never planned. If they had intended to kill James from the beginning, they had plenty of opportunities. They could have pushed him into the canal, into traffic, or abandoned him long before reaching the railway. Instead, they wandered through like one of Liverpool's busiest areas speaking to adults along the way. Robert's attorney argued that the boys created a situation they did not know how to escape. They were scared to leave James alone, but equally afraid to return him to an adult. John's attorney pushed a different argument. He acknowledged John's involvement but portrayed Robert as the dominant force, the leader who encouraged and escalated the violence. Finally, after their cases rested, the judge gave the jury one final instruction. He told them the case was not about whether or not the boys intended to kill James when they first took him from the shopping center. The question that they had to answer was much narrower. When they reached the railway tracks, Did Robert Thompson and John Venables intend to murder James Bulger? With that being said, on Wednesday, November 24th, after hearing more than three weeks of evidence and testimony, the jury began deliberations. While the jury was out deliberating, Robert apparently knit gloves for his baby brother. He mentioned that he saw no point in being emotional and he had already accepted his fate. I'm not sure how long the jury was out, but they returned to the courtroom and Robert and John were found. Guilty. The judge addressed the boy, saying, quote, The killing of James Bulger was an act of unparalleled evil and barbarity. The child of two was taken from his mother on a journey of over two miles and then, on the railway line, was battered to death without mercy. Then his body was placed across the railway line so that it would be run over by a train in an attempt to conceal this murder. In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked. The sentence that I will pass upon you is that you should be detained during her Majesty's pleasure in such a place and under such conditions as the Secretary of State may now decide. You will be securely detained for very, very many years until the home secretary is satisfied that you have matured and are fully rehabilitated and until you are no longer a danger. And with that he swung his gavel, and one of the bystanders shouted to the boys. How you feel now, you little bastards? Spoiler alert, they did not see very, very many years. Both Robert and John were sentenced to eight years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure, but their time was extended to ten years. Not totally sure why, but there was a lot of back and forth as well as citizen petitions and all kinds of things trying to influence the amount of time that the boys should serve. Robert served his time at the Barton Moss Secure Children's Home and John served his time at the Vardy House in Merseyside. Robert Thompson and John Venables are the youngest convicted murderers in modern British history. Which brings me to where are they now? In june two thousand one, after a six month review, the parole board ruled that Robert and John were no longer a danger or a threat to public safety and could be released. They had already served their eight year minimum. Robert Thompson was gifted with a brand new identity and he took it and ran with it. No one knows his new name, but there are a few things that have been reported about him post-release. He is now openly gay. Be who you are. And is either married or in a committed long-term relationship. But his whereabouts, if he has children, things like that are all widely unknown. He has been focused on protecting his peace and anonymity. And I can't say I'm mad at it because what's the point in receiving a new identity if you don't use it, you know? Reports say that Robert is positively engaged in his community and maintains a low profile. John, on the other hand, my God, on today, like the church people say, he has been cutting up. He, like Robert, was also given a new identity. But he has been in so much trouble post release that he might as well have just remained John Venables. In 2001, shortly before his release, he was found to have a sexual relationship with one of the guards at his facility. He began drinking, doing drugs, partying like a rock star. In 2005, during a visit with his parole officer, he was found to have a 17 year old girlfriend. He was 23 at the time. They kind of let him slide on that one because they're just like, you know what? He has not even been out of jail that long. It's delayed adolescence. He spent his teenage years locked away. We'll let him have a little fun. I don't know in what world that's okay, but they let him have it. In two thousand one, he got into a fight at work. Not I don't know if it probably wasn't a physical fight, but he said he was being harassed. And he called his PO and complained. And he's just like, These people at work discovered my identity. I'm being harassed, like I'm having a fight for my life. And so his PO is just like, okay, well, I'm gonna come over to your house and we're gonna discuss this further. And so she gets over to the house, her and the police, and they find him trying to destroy his hard drive. And I'm sitting here, I'm like, was that even necessary? Cause were they even about to check your computer? And they confiscated it because they're just like, Why would you be trying to destroy that? And they're just like, Would you look at that? His hard drive contained tons of Of child porn. On March 2nd, 2010, John was arrested. It was alleged that he had downloaded fifty-seven indecent images of children over a twelve month period. And he had also allowed people access to the files through a peer to peer network. At the court hearing, it emerged that he had posted he like posed in chatrooms as a thirty-five year old woman named Dawn Donnie Smith. A supposedly married woman from Liverpool who boasted about abusing her eight-year-old daughter in the hope of obtaining, you know, further child sexual abuse material. He was gifted another new identity and he was released in 2013. In twenty seventeen, he was arrested again, same charges. He became eligible for parole in January 2026. And there was some back and forth or whether on whether or not he should gain another new identity, because at this point They're just like d like John, we have given you about four new identities. People keep finding out issues because you keep doing dumb stuff. And so they're just like, it's very expensive for us to keep you here. So let's talk about maybe rehoming you, John, to Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, because it's just too much for you to be here. You need a different demographic. And new in New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinta Ardern remarked that due to his criminal history, John would need an exemption under the New Zealand Immigration Act of two thousand nine and he should not even bother applying. So how'd your kids, how'd your wives? 'Cause I have no idea where in the world he is or what his name is now. And I mean the likelihood of him reoffending is high. So Ralph and Denise Bulger quietly divorced in nineteen ninety five and Denise remarried and she had at least two other children with her new husband and she goes by Denise Fergus now. Ann Thompson died by suicide because it was too much. It was just it was too much. It was too much. I'm not even saying that to be funny. It was just too much. She it was too much. And so she just could not deal with the mental emotional strain of what she was dealing with. And she, you know, unfortunately took that path. And there's nothing published on Robert Thom on Robert Thompson Senior. James Bulger's grave is tucked away under a tree with a sign that reads, quote, James Special Place. Which brings me to my final thoughts. We need to stop issuing out new identities like government cheese. This is like the third case that I have done in probably the last month and a half, and they got new identities. And I understand the premise of getting new identities, but I feel like sometimes you just have to sit with the weight of your decisions. I get that you were young. I get, I get it, but. To do something so severe, I think you just need to sit with the weight of your decisions. I could w they are minors though. I mean, their record would be sealed any other way. I just I I don't get it. One thing I don't agree with is in a lot of the articles I read, I felt like they painted Robert out to be the bad guy. Like I felt like they were just like John was just this innocent kid, John just was following Robert, but the evidence told a very different story. The evidence told a very different story. And I just I felt like it wasn't right that they were just like, you know, he's just this misunderstood boy when it comes to talking to John. And when it came to talking about Robert, it's just like, you know, he you know, he's from the wrong side of the tracks. He's from over, you know, his family's poor, his mom be drinking. And it's just like, I think we all need to collectively just stop judging people. Like, you know, it's like A lot of people are just like, well, John would not have done this if it wasn't for Robert, which may be true. It may be. But they both did this. They both did this. And they both sat with it. I understand peer pressure and all that, but I don't think at any point in my life anyone would be able to talk me into murdering somebody. I'm sorry. I feel like that level of wanting acceptance needs to be studied. Because why? Why? Robert didn't take care of John, you know, like he wasn't you know I I just This story, like this, I was like, it was just so senseless. And I know all of the stories that we've covered are senseless, but there was just no damn reason. There was just no damn reason. Kudos to Robert, I suppose. He has kept his nose clean since he got out of detention. And so, you know, John, get your life together. Sincerely, like what the hell? But I just, ugh, this this story. And I'm just amazed at how many stories I'm like finding that I haven't heard of before. Anyway, that is our show. Follow me on TikTok, Minor Mischief Pod on Instagram, Minor Mischief Podcast. Case suggestions, wanna chat, wanna kiki. Do you love me? Minor Mischief Podcast at gmail dot com. I felt like I had an announcement and I just don't remember because I didn't write it down. And it's getting late and I still haven't eaten dinner. So I'll see y'all next week. Same day of the week. And until then, stay mischievous, friends.