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Triggers · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Okay. So, obviously, because we put things on the podcast and sometimes share things, and even when it's super scary to do, it's actually helpful because others of us can listen and know what's going on, kind of like using our notebook. And so we try to be honest about that, although we do a lot of editing out of some content that's just not appropriate for the podcast because we're not here for shock value or trauma dumping. But because we have been vulnerable, it's obvious that we've been struggling, especially since Africa. But that doesn't mean things are bad.
• 1:43
  Part of what's been going on is that we're actually doing good in therapy. And by doing good, I simply mean that, like, we're tackling stuff and we're starting to face things and not just learning about avoidance, but trying not to do as much avoidance. And it's really unpleasant, you guys. Here's what I've learned. Even if you have a therapist who's awesome, therapy is awful, and I hate it.
• 2:16
  Except that it's good, and it's helpful, and we're making good progress because we're facing some things. And when I say that, I'm not even being like, oh, we are the queen of therapy now. Because, let me tell you, by facing things, I mean like we touched the notebook. I don't mean we had some big significant whatever is supposed to happen. I don't know.
• 2:43
  But for us, it is significant. So let me back up for a little bit and catch you guys up. Part of it, I know, is that the podcasts are recorded about a month before they actually air. Two weeks, four weeks, three weeks, something in there. So by the time you hear it, it's actually already happened a long time ago, and we are moving on most of the time.
• 3:06
  Sometimes it happens more because we're able to update more or because somebody does it. I don't know. So I know part of it is a time difference. But also we're kind of bad at time anyway. So let me clarify what's going on.
• 3:26
  Two weeks ago, therapy was really hard because of what we had to talk about. Okay? So basically, it kind of came to this culmination of if we're gonna keep coming to therapy I mean, those are my words. The therapist didn't say that like a threat. The therapist is letting us come to therapy.
• 3:53
  But basically, we as a system, if we're gonna go to therapy, we need to work on stuff. And it was a big internal conversation. I don't know if the therapist even knows it was a conversation, but it was really intense and it was really hard and we left in a very difficult place. One of those times where the session is over and you're not necessarily in a solid place, but it's also time to go and there's not much you can do about it. So we really struggled on the way home and it was a very long drive and very difficult trying to get home.
• 4:28
  But we did get home, and we were okay. And we were determined to continue trying and continue facing things. Oh, let me back up. Let me back up because it's all coming back to me. It's all coming back to me.
• 4:46
  Okay. So here's the thing. When we went to that girls retreat like weeks ago, and it was a really powerful and good and positive experience, and we shared about that at the time. But what we haven't gotten to talk about a lot is how hard it was to go home after that. Because there was something there was something about being in that safe space and being loved in appropriate and good and healthy ways that was so full of attunement and healing and goodness.
• 5:23
  Like remember that whole mother hunger podcast? This was more of that except living it and being wrapped up in it and it was so powerful and good. But leaving that was super hard. Super hard. And so we talked about that only when I think John Mark did the nachos podcast.
• 5:50
  I'm sorry. It's not funny. But we woke up with the dog in the backyard and all of this drama because it was so hard to leave. And so what we have realized looking back at things is that it was a trigger, right? So a trigger in now time is when something in now time feels like something in memory time.
• 6:10
  And so leaving all that goodness felt like being sent out of foster care back to the family. Now, I understand that foster care is not always a pleasant experience, but some foster families are good and you do want to stay. And some foster families like us do keep the kids and are good families. So I know not every foster experience is good. I know.
• 6:41
  I know. I know. I know. Know that just because we talk about foster care does not mean that it's safe or good. I'm not assuming that.
• 6:51
  I'm just talking about our own experience and specifically one in particular that we've been talking about with a therapist all year. I know you don't have that context because we've not shared that story because it's so trauma specific and getting involved in trying to explain it would maybe be too much for the podcast but the entire year there is one particular foster family that we've been talking about in therapy and working through some specific things related to being sent back to our family, and this felt like that. Okay? So we tried hard to deal with that. We tried hard to cope with that.
• 7:32
  It was a hard week anyway. It was the same week we had all this drama with the children, the outside children. And it's the same time when we were losing friends and like it just felt like everything was falling apart and it was so intense and it was so hard and it was really really difficult. And so that was a hard week. But we were determined, this is what I was trying to get to, we were determined to try and keep doing therapy and to stay focused on healing and not just drowning in what was hard.
• 8:09
  Okay? So literally just to hang on by our fingernails or however you say that in English, just to try to literally stay grounded to the therapeutic process, We went back to the notebook. So at the beginning, I mean back to the workbook. We went back to the workbook. So at the beginning of the workbook there's like four or five or seven parts.
• 8:36
  I don't know how many parts. It's funny that the workbook about DID has parts. Get it? Get it? It's funny.
• 8:45
  Okay. So the first part is like, oh, let's be gentle and here's about DID and some information and everything's okay and we're getting into the workbook. And then the next part is like, but you actually live in a body, so here's how you live in a body and how to work together in the body to sleep and take care of your body and to eat and things like that. And then the next part is like, and also there are memories, kabam. And it's brutal.
• 9:12
  And so we have avoided those chapters. Because avoidance. Avoidance is the best, you guys. Except not really. And so that's why we had to get back to the workbook and use it as some added structure while we were struggling.
• 9:29
  And it was a time for us where it was actually really difficult to stay safe and to use positive coping skills and not go back to things like things that hurt the body or alcohol or substances. And so we pulled through. We worked hard on the workbook and we stayed focused on therapy and managed to get through safely and well and we are kicking it proud of that. Okay? Because that is a lot of work, and it's really hard, and we're starting to feel back on track, and that feels good.
• 10:09
  I'm proud of us. But let's talk about this chapter because there is a piece I wanna share. So we are on chapter 14 of the coping skills book, and this chapter is about traumatic memories and triggers. So we're gonna do this chapter and share the things that we can as carefully as we can without triggering people, but know that the chapter is about triggers. So there is some examples we're gonna use that are as neutral as possible, which maybe is why we're also using them as a starting place in therapy.
• 10:46
  Except that for us, they were also things that prevented us from asking for help. And so sort of tackling them first, I don't know why that's come up, but that's what's unfolded for us over the last year. And maybe if we can get through that, then other things will be easier to talk about. Okay? The first thing that they explain are flashbacks and kind of defining what flashbacks are.
• 11:12
  So it says in the workbook that flashbacks are reactivated traumatic memories and instability experienced due to reliving past trauma. And then it talks about how they come through this sensory experience. So they're visual or things that you hear or something you smell or touch or taste. It can also be emotional, and they can also be physical, like body memories, which is a whole different nightmare that I can't even go into right now. They are very overwhelming.
• 11:49
  It is when memory time feels like now time, and there may also be some parts who are stuck in memory time, like an ongoing flashback kind of. There may be feelings with it that can be either flashbacks in and of themselves or as part of the experience of the flashback, things like panic or rage, shame, loss, despair. They can also be cognitive like old tapes. So we have one who is the mother who is totally like a copy of the mother, except she knows not to be like the mother. Right?
• 12:28
  So her whole struggle is doing everything the opposite of the mother and trying to be a good mother but at the same time all those tapes from all the things that the mother said. So like she's very depressed and she thinks that she is bad and all of these things. So we're always having to work on our self talk and and how she is responding to herself. Even though she's safe with the outside children, she's really, really hard on herself because of those things. Those count as flashbacks.
• 12:59
  Did you guys know that? I didn't know that that could count as a flashback, but they say it counts as a flashback and those kinds of false beliefs or negative thoughts. And then and then and then you guys, also behaviors. Things like fighting or freezing or shutting down or even running away. And you all know we have a runner.
• 13:24
  And this is actually important because last week therapy was super hard and I'm going to talk about that in a minute because we talked about this chapter before we went in and we went in a plan with looking at the notebooks and everything fell apart. And the therapist is like, slow down, cowboy. Let's talk about how we can do this safely. And we're like, no. We've got this under control.
• 13:49
  False. You guys, here's the thing. Your therapist actually knows what they're doing. So maybe, maybe you should listen to your therapist and let your therapist be the therapist. Because it's kind of a disaster when you don't.
• 14:06
  And we ran. And so they're saying this is kind of a flashback moment. And so that really helped me because I knew flashbacks were like when all of sudden you remember something and you can't turn it off. But I didn't realize that flashbacks could take so many shapes or show up in so many different ways. Does that make sense?
• 14:29
  And so it's really important to understand this because it's a way of sort of giving yourselves compassion for what you're going through and what you're enduring because this isn't about you failing or messing up or getting an F in therapy. Like this is about that's how hard it was in the past. And because of the flashbacks it feels like the past is in the present. And that happens because of triggers. So the workbook says that a trigger is a reactivating stimulus either literally or symbolically so that there's a similarity in now time that connects to memory time.
• 15:15
  So something in now time reminds you of memory time. It could be a situation, a dynamic like a family dynamic like my children screaming? It could be an interaction, a person, an object, an experience, a position, a sensation. For us it was last week. People who promised that they were never gonna leave you and they're gonna love you always and you're good friends and then they're just gone.
• 15:43
  That feels a lot like things that happened in childhood, right? So it's a big trigger. So there are big feelings about it. And when you get triggered there's an automatic reaction as if the trauma is happening now. And part of why triggers can be so powerful is because sometimes it really can be happening now.
• 16:06
  So for example, when we were in Africa and our trip was going well and everything was amazing and we loved the people there and we loved the things we saw and getting to connect our daughter to where her ancestors came from. All of those things were beautiful experiences. But when some people made bad choices and the end of the trip went wrong and bad things happened, We really were not safe. Now time was not safe. We were hungry and we were locked in a room and things were happening to our bodies like that was in now time.
• 16:40
  Except what was different is that we were not a child and we were able to use resources and ourselves and each other to get ourselves safe and to get ourselves out of there and to get ourselves home. So it is true that sometimes now time really isn't safe yet or isn't safe right now because of different reasons, but we still have resources and capacity which is like my new favorite word right now, so you're gonna start hearing it a lot. We have resources and capacity to help ourselves in ways we could not when we were a child. Our therapist said last week in therapy or this week whenever, the last time we were at her office she said specifically when you're a baby you can't get away. You can't push them away, you can't run away.
• 17:34
  But when we're grown there are things we can do and when we can't do them or bad things happen, I'm not saying that that's our fault, but I'm saying that even in the aftermath there are things we can do to take care of ourselves that no one ever did for us before. And so now time can still be safe. So it's like in t I s s. Now time is still safe because we can care for ourselves and we're not alone anymore. Even if all we have is the podcast or the workbook or a notebook even if we don't have a therapist yet like we are still less alone than we were when we were children.
• 18:14
  And there's hope in that and there's healing in that and there's connection in that. And it matters because when you have a flashback remembering that now time is still safe is a huge piece of getting through it. And when you're in therapy talking about memory time, that can be really hard too. And that's part of where I'm going with what happened in therapy this week because memory time feels like it comes up when you're in now time in the therapy office talking about memory time. And our therapist tells us a lot that memory time cannot change now time.
• 18:58
  It might have been awful and it might feel awful now, but in now time we are still safe. We are still with the therapist the therapist still is safe our room is still safe we have the husband and we have friends and we have grounding skills and coping skills and we have so much help that we never had before even though it feels really really awful in the moment. So it can be difficult to accept as our own past experience and there may be trauma parts who are stuck in memory time that are more vulnerable to triggers which is part of why we need to rescue them and help them. But what's important is that we have to learn to recognize what the triggers are for us specifically before we can change those automatic responses. So this is why we need things like the workbook.
• 19:58
  The workbook told us how to recognize that we've been triggered. Here's the list they give and it's brilliant. You can recognize that you've been triggered when your reaction is more intense than now time context. So your response that's sort of exploding out of you and whatever that looks like, whether that's anger or shame or sadness or grief or whatever, when it's more intense than what's actually happening in now time, then you've been triggered. If you feel stuck like things aren't getting better or you can't help yourself or you're helpless or hopeless that's a trigger you've been triggered.
• 20:38
  If you are not able to step back and reflect on what's happening then you've been triggered. It's not actually what's happening in now time. If there are active inner parts who are aware of what's going on or lots of switching going on in response to something that happened as opposed to a conscious agreement amongst your system then you've been triggered. If there is a defense reaction like flight, fight, freeze, collapse, fawning, any of those then you have been triggered. If you feel like you are watching it unfold and happen instead of being in control of it, then you have been triggered.
• 21:20
  If there is lost time or a flashback, then you have been triggered. So that's huge because it gives you context. It's like a map or like a key, like a way to know whether it's now time or memory time. So there's always clues that you can find. One for us specifically that applies to our situation that we can use as an example even if it doesn't apply to you exactly is that if we're unclear if it's memory time or now time, if we can see the husband or the therapist, that's now time.
• 22:01
  If we can see the parents, that's memory time. Does that make sense? So for us, that's one of the ways we can implement this list from the workbook to help us know the difference between whether we've been triggered or this is actually happening. And the workbook also points out, and this was really good because I didn't know this, the workbook points out that you can even do that work to be aware that you've been triggered without actually having the memory of why it is a trigger. You may not even want to know that you've been triggered because especially ANPs or daily living parts, apparently normal parts, whatever phrase you use, those of you that are functioning to be present in the world around you are very adept at avoiding trauma and those EPs or the emotional parts or trauma holders.
• 22:56
  That's avoidance. That's what dissociation is. Right? So even if you're not in a place of wanting to know why something is a trigger, you can be aware that it is a trigger and learn how to handle it in the moment or put it on pause until you can get help or not be alone or whatever it is that you need to work through that. So here's a quote from the book, the workbook.
• 23:19
  It says, when you cannot understand and accept your inner experience, they become confusing and frightening, seemingly arbitrary, and out of your control. This only increases your fear of inner experiences and then makes your life even smaller to avoid dealing with yourself. So that's really hard and one of the hardest parts of DID because you get You become more and more isolated as you become more and more fearful. Whether that's being isolated from the world outside you or isolated from the internal world itself or isolated from others inside. But the more that we understand what's going on and just compassionately accept ourselves and our system and what's happening to us and understand why that's what's happening.
• 24:15
  The more comfort we can receive and the more calm we can stay because we understand that it's not something out there attacking us or not something now time making us unsafe, but that it's related to something in the past which is already over even though it's hard to think about it or feel it now. But when we're aware that it's a memory or a flashback in whatever shape it's come that has been triggered, then we can deal with that specific trigger even when we can't always avoid them. So the workbook says noticing specific triggers helps the rest of our life feel safer and less overwhelming. Our vulnerability to triggers is determined by physical arousal levels and mental state in the moment. So that's why all those chapters about self care came before this chapter.
• 25:14
  If I'm eating well, doing my best to sleep well, functioning well at work, doing a good job being connected to my friends and my family support, like the husband and the children, then I can handle triggers better. So this explains sort of too why everything was sort of a crash and burn after our trip this summer. Because the more isolated we got from our support system, the worse we were doing and the more things fell apart. We couldn't handle it. We didn't have spoons and things just escalated and the harder things got the more we shut down.
• 25:55
  And the more we shut down the harder things got. So it's almost like this spiral in a positive way where if you're aware of what's going on and can communicate about what's going on and help each other deal with it and stay connected to the outside world, you can actually handle things better even before you know why what's happening is happening or even before you understand what's going on. How cool is that? Like it's so empowering. On the other hand the more tired and spacey you are, the more stress you have, the more you're facing new challenges, the more there is inner chaos or conflict, the more you're working on history and therapy.
• 26:39
  All of those things were happening to us in the context of the last couple of months, then the more easily you are triggered. So good to know, right? Here's the other thing the workbook does. It goes through and gives types of triggers, kinds of triggers. The first one is time related.
• 26:58
  So there are things like anniversary reactions. So that can get pretty deep really fast and I don't wanna talk about it right now. But a neutral example would be the day that our mother was killed by a drunk driver. Bam, anniversary reaction. Right?
• 27:15
  Okay. So also at nighttime, like dusk, they said even the time of day can be a trigger because so many bad things happened at night and then also holidays whether that's in a context of RA or SRA abuse which I don't want to talk about right now or even just because of family gatherings stress during those seasons. And so that's a big deal. Another type of trigger is place related. So places you were abused, like how we just went back to the town where we grew up and the area where we grew up.
• 27:54
  That was a big deal and a big trigger, which is part of why it was such a meltdown when we left. Right? Crowded spaces, even waiting rooms because of the people and sort of the dynamic in that space feeling stuck or trapped for a time which can also be part of the feeling in waiting rooms. We are terrible. It takes us almost an hour to get up to the therapist office from our car and we almost can't go into her office if there are other people in the waiting room.
• 28:29
  So we often have to stand out in the hall or wait in the stairwell until we know people have come and gone just to get into the therapist's office. We have made it as far as being friends with her receptionist. We like her and we feel safe with her and so that has helped a lot. But just like getting into the therapist's office is probably harder for us than the actual therapy because of all of these reasons. And once we get into the therapist's office it's like a whole different world and we're fine inside there but the process of getting from the car into her office is awful.
• 29:15
  The next type of trigger that they talk about is relational. So this is fascinating because I didn't even know this was a thing and now I'm like oh my goodness that explains everything! So it can be a relational trigger when something feels like a threat even though it's good. Times when you feel vulnerable or it feels like a risk to be friends or you have big feelings or there's grief for lost relationships or reminders of bad ones like abandonment or rejection or humiliation or shame or panic or yearning. So this has happened to us in the past sometimes when there when we are working really hard on a friendship and wanted to be friends but because we wanted it then it must not gonna be happen and sort of giving up or other times when instead of working things out people were just shaming us and not being able to resolve that made the friendship that had been safe no longer safe And so what looks like on the outside of it's just turned off and not a thing anymore is really a lot of grief related to relational triggers.
• 30:29
  That's a thing. Who knew? That's like a whole other podcast. I didn't even know. But in the workbook they said, in the past disruption in relationships was catastrophic either because you had been so hurt or because it was a great loss to lose such good.
• 30:49
  And that's part of why it's so terrifying to make new friends, and part of why it's so terrifying to try and be a friend, and part of why it hurts so much when people change their mind. The workbook said some parts of you may stay on guard, some parts may watch for cues or clues that you're going to be rejected, Some parts may overlook or not understand cues that everything is actually okay. And some parts may not know which ones are healthy. So that's the other thing too as we continue to learn about about friendships and choosing healthy friendships, friendships that are able to continue to be safe and to continue to remain emotionally safe and relationally safe even if they're safe in other ways. This is a huge huge piece especially with people with DID.
• 31:45
  It may also be triggering in that feeling of waiting to be misunderstood or even punished. And then when you are there's a rupture in the relationship and when there's no resolution to that or the other people are not able to do their own work as well then there's so much grief when it's lost. The other type of trigger they mentioned was internal, avoiding inner experiences so as to avoid trauma, hearing the others inside talk, hearing crying or yelling on the inside or the outside, emotions, sensations, needs, thoughts, and even reenactments of trauma. Those are all different types of triggers. The other one that they mentioned was sensory, and I think that's the one that we usually think of when we talk about a trigger.
• 32:31
  That there's something that sounds the same or smells the same or looks the same or feels the same as something of what we've endured before. But considering all these other different different types of triggers opens up a whole new world of understanding what's going on that I didn't even know was there. Okay. So here's what's happened. In the workbook at the end of the chapter, there's always homework assignments.
• 33:00
  But this time, we're actually gonna share our responses to the homework assignment. So there is some examples of some triggers for us and some things that if it's too difficult, that's sort of the end of the informational section of the podcast. So you can stop listening now if you're not in a good place or in a place where you're able to sort of listen to that sort of process. We're not going to give details of abuse, but we are going to talk about some specific things just in this one example because it was so clear what happened once we did the workbook chapter but before that we didn't understand what was going on and we did talk about our responses on the podcast but the workbook helped us walk through what happened and how to handle it And so we wanna go ahead and use it as an example this one time. So if you're done listening, go ahead and turn it off and skip to the next one or go back to your happy peppy world in other places or go get a snack or go for a walk.
• 34:00
  But if you want to keep listening we're going to walk through how to identify triggers according to the homework at the end of the chapter. So if you remember we at the time the week that we did this we had been to the women's conference and it was a very good experience very positive experience but there were lots of layers of things going inside we picked just one layer of part of what happened to work through on the workbook. In other pages and with a therapist we can work on the other layers but just for what we're sharing now we're just going to share one piece. But one of the things that happened that was really powerful for us was going to one of the talks where our friend was speaking and sharing her story about something that she had been through. And at the end of the talk they did that thing where you write down something you're trying to let go of or that you wanna stop carrying around or holding on to or whatever.
• 34:57
  And then they went and burned those pieces of paper in the fire, like as a therapeutic and healing exercise. And so that was super cool, but we panicked and we ran and like actually ended up in the lake and it was this whole thing. And so we used that example at the end of the workbook chapter to try and talk through identifying triggers. So the first question is, where were you and what were you doing when you were triggered? So what Emma wrote was that we were in this session and they kept talking about the fire and burning And then she also said using the other types of triggers.
• 35:42
  Right? So those were the sensory pieces. We saw fire, and we heard talk about fire. But now because of that chapter, we also know the other layers of triggers. And so she also wrote, I was in a vulnerable place already doing something good, but new and hard with lots of triggers, big ones in a short amount of time.
• 36:04
  And then we listed some of those triggers. So we were back in a place we had been when we were little. We were back at a church where our father had actually been music minister. We were back in a church that had the kind of worship style and music and discussions that we have not been around in for decades. And so that reminded us of other things.
• 36:33
  We lost our friends that weekend and we saw where our mother was killed and we saw where she died and we saw the father's cemetery where he is buried. And we went to we were in this place where we were when we were little. So it was a huge weekend and very vulnerable. So she wrote about those things. Number two, it says, describe the trigger if you know.
• 37:05
  Now this is where the notebook comes in handy because all she wrote was fire, but then someone else wrote, also this used to be our Sunday school classroom and the pictures on the wall are the same. How crazy is that? So we we didn't even know that. I didn't even know about that. So one trigger was the topic, but someone else inside was triggered by where we were in that classroom at that particular church.
• 37:32
  And then a third one wrote and also the smell. So the old church smelled the same as the old church smelled before. It smelled like old church. I don't know how to describe it. So there were three triggers, and we only knew about one of them.
• 37:50
  Does that make sense? So two others inside had two separate triggers about the same thing that was a big deal. So how do you deal with that? Number three, what was your inner experience of being triggered? Feeling out of body, anxiety or panic, visual or auditory flashbacks, nausea, lost time, question mark.
• 38:12
  Those are the examples they give in the question. So what she wrote was fuzzy, then far away, and then lost time. So that's how Emma experienced it in the process in response to the trigger, trying to hold on, trying to go back to what happened. That's all she experienced. But then someone else who wrote about remembering the classroom from when we used to go to church there wrote panic.
• 38:41
  And then a different little wrote run. And then the one who talked about the smell wrote sick to my stomach. And then one of our youngest Littles wrote thinking about fire made me see it. So that's huge. Like these are all pieces of the puzzle that we didn't have when it happened.
• 39:06
  Does that make sense? So already we have more information than we had before and then you turn the page and there's someone else writing and someone else like it's not a poem exactly and I know I'm not supposed to write poems not everybody likes poems but it says remembering the fire made me remember it happened because we told. It happened because we talked because we trusted because we connected so it was our fault they died. Like what? What are we even talking about right now?
• 39:38
  Like these are huge pieces that came out because we're walking through figuring out what was the trigger and why was it a trigger. And so part of what was the trigger was we were in the same place or nearby, but we were in this familiar place trying to connect with people and trying to trust people. And what we realized through the writings, and I'm not going to read all of the rest of that, but what we realized was so what we learned that we didn't even know from these papers is that this other family died in this fire. And having felt close to them and having started to attach to them and having to go back with our family and losing that there's all this grief and that's why John Mark is crying on the podcast about nachos and dogs which at first was like, what is going on? But because we walked through the triggers and looked at the layers of what happened and let everyone respond and express themselves, we were able to put the pieces together.
• 40:45
  And then this is huge. This is huge. You know we have the one that runs and she's young. We knew she was little. We've learned that.
• 40:55
  But she wrote in the notebook after this part, that is why I cannot run far enough or fast enough because I run from the bad but when the fire happened I knew the bad was me. Oh my goodness! That's so heavy and that's so much on one little girl or on one part of his system and if we didn't learn that it would still be really hard to help her. But now what we know is that this is why she's running, and this is why we always end up near water. Because water puts out fire.
• 41:34
  Do you see? So taking the time to write through what the trigger was, even though we thought it was one thing, actually gave us a lot of information about other stuff. And not only that, but there were other dynamic pieces to it that we didn't understand how they're interacting or what they're thinking or what their perspective is. And so when we're in that session in the talk at the church, one thing that happened was they turned out the lights for the video. Right?
• 42:02
  So one little wrote we froze because she turned out the lights. And then another one, the one that's for the mother actually, but she wrote, I sit very still in the dark for maybe my father will come rescue me. He will take me from my mother and he will and then the rest of it's not appropriate to share here. But we had no idea until this that the one that's for the mother actually thought the father was rescuing her from the mother or waiting to be rescued from the mother. We know the father's not going to rescue her or help or even show up if he does but if he does it's not going to be good like we know that but we didn't know she didn't know that until it showed up in the notebook.
• 42:53
  But for the first time, the other one for the father wrote back. And she said, well several things I'm not I'm gonna skip, But then I don't want my father to come for me. I don't wanna be trapped in the tiny corner of the Sunday school room, and I don't want to be touched, I want to get out of here. And then the other one that runs wrote run. And so you can see how even though all she felt was fuzzy, all of this was going on inside and it was like dominoes for who responded what and what the body ended up doing.
• 43:32
  And so I don't want to share all the other details that came out of this but it just kept going and going with like five or six or seven of these different parts writing in the notebook about this one thing where this whole story finally came out with different pieces that we've been working on for a year and a half and didn't understand how they fit together and didn't understand why trying to talk was so hard besides the obvious layers of the abuse dynamic. But it was a huge breakthrough for us and it was all because we looked at different kinds of triggers not just sensory ones and different layers of triggers not just the trigger of the person who is out fronting, but the way others inside can get triggered too when they hear things or see things. And not only that, but it turned into a conversation between different ones inside who before could not talk to each other. And now since then they're responding in the notebook all the time in ways they never have before and it's been crazy the amount of information that's come and what we've learned from them.
• 44:47
  So it's been really incredible and what happened just to resolve the fire piece what's happened is that there's a retreat coming up where they're going to do a similar exercise and what Emma wanted to do was take a bunch of the notebooks or papers from the notebooks that we've already given to the therapist like two years ago and burn those except a couple layers that are a problem with that. Number one, we've not talked about them yet So it's not time. Number two, that's kind of a public setting and probably not the time or the place. Even though it was the right people are also there, we need to do it in private, not with everybody there, even if no one would be looking at our stuff. Number three, we have to talk inside about who wrote what and what is okay to really let go of.
• 45:36
  And so she kinda jumped the gun on the end goal about it happening right now, but it's still a great goal and someday we will do it. We will face the fire and we will throw in some of our pages from therapy and we will let them go. And that's a beautiful goal and I love that that's something we want to do someday and that everyone's kind of on board with it but it's not time yet and we need to do it well and we need to do it together and so we will do that someday but for now and so that's why therapy was hard last week kind of bolting from that and running to the lake again and now we know why and everything's actually okay because it turns out she's not going to do anything dangerous there she thinks she's being safe there So that answers one of our issues in our safety plan about running because now we know we're going to the water not to hurt ourselves but to feel safe and to feel comfort and to feel protected and so now we can intentionally and preventatively plan on going to the river or to the lake and feeling safe there and comforting there prior to needing to run away from anything Like that's an actual need we can meet.
• 46:55
  It's not a problem in the area where we live to go to a river or a lake. That's a really easy thing. So knowing how to meet her needs and to help her theoretically is going to help stop the running. How amazing is that? All just from doing therapy homework you guys!
• 47:14
  So that's my point. That's my point is that we need to do therapy homework. We need to talk to our therapist. We maybe need to listen to what they're saying because they know more than we do and better than we do. Not about us, but about being safe and about working together.
• 47:33
  We can be the experts on us but they can be the experts on safety and what's outside of us and how to help us do that for ourselves and we can do it for ourselves and this was an amazing experience. So I hope that that made sense talking through it a little bit and sharing a little bit more vulnerable pieces without going into too much detail. But it really became a very healing thing with a whole lot of breakthroughs when we thought we were just, like, being stubborn and doing the workbook because we had to. It actually turned out to be really helpful again, and so I wanted to share that and hope that that makes sense. The other piece was that you know how in the abuse dynamic, there's this whole thing, if you tell, I'll do this, or if you tell, I'll whatever.
• 48:30
  There's always this threat involved, kind of like the grooming at the beginning. There's always this threat that's sort of at the conclusion of things, or if you do this, then I will whatever. And so it feels like for us, part of that, not all of it, and I'm not going into more details because, triggers, but for us, of it had to do with the fire. And learning that we could actually talk about the fire and the whole world didn't fall apart, and we could tell the therapist about the fire and everything is actually still okay. And we could say, like, it's sort of it is sort of, in some way, unlocked something that made it too made it impossible to ask for help or impossible to receive connection or believe in it because until this point and I'm sure it's still gonna take some practice but until this point it was almost like not only can I not ask for help or tell you these things or communicate because something terrible will happen but also because you will be in danger if I tell you these things?
• 49:50
  For us that was part of the dynamic wrapped up in a whole lot of layers and that happens a lot with different kinds of abuse and so I just wanted to share the example not for giving too much details or triggering anyone, but for saying we shared what was for us, and I don't know if it even makes sense out of context without the rest of the story. But the point is that we shared the peace that felt most dangerous and saying it out loud with a therapist and writing it down in the notebook even if it came out in pieces over two years everything's actually still okay. Now time really is safe and even though we still need to talk about this in therapy and we still need to read even this notebook in therapy and all of the people inside who are involved in this and wrote pieces of this in this notebook and in the stories like we're gonna have to talk about it. We're gonna have to work through this. I'm not saying it's over or that it's easy but I am saying that we saw the layers of what was triggering us.
• 51:05
  We worked through those layers. We figured out what was going on and it actually taught us a whole lot more than what we even realized we were going to learn about and everything is still okay. So somehow that gives us our power back that even triggers we can use to help ourselves, and even triggers we can use to get our power back, and even triggers we can use for healing. That's kind of amazing, you guys. Yeah?
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.