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Feds Swoop in on Ellen Greenberg Murder Probe · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Is there confirmation the feds, i.e. the FBI, are eyeing
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: the Ellen Greenberg murder?
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: being with us.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg brutally stabbed dead in her own apartment. How
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: could a woman... A young, beautiful woman, a teacher, Ellen Greenberg,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: stabbed herself multiple times in the back and in the
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: back of the head, and it be called suicide. I
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: hope the feds agree. According to Ellen's parents, the feds
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: are eyeing the case. They are involved in the investigation.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: And this is why.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: A shocking admission by the pathologist in the stabbing death
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: It all starts here. Listen.
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 5: I'm looking at her right now.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: I can't see anything.
• 1:27
  Speaker 6: There's nothing broken.
• 1:28
  Speaker 5: She's bleeding.
• 1:29
  Speaker 7: Allie?
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: You don't know where she's bleeding from? Allie?
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  Speaker 3: I think her head.
• 1:34
  Speaker 6: It's everywhere.
• 1:36
  Speaker 7: It's everywhere.
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  Speaker 5: She might have fallen. Do you know what happened?
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  Speaker 6: She may have slipped his blood on the table. Her
• 1:42
  Speaker 6: face is a little purple.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: May have fallen?
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  Speaker 2: May have fallen on a knife 20 times, may have slipped.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Straight out to very special guests joining us tonight, Ellen's
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: parents that I now call friends, Josh and Sandy Greenberg.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Do you know how.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Much I hate playing the 911 call, especially when you're
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: with me? Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: get chills.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: She did not.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Fall on a knife 20 times.
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  Speaker 8: The phone call is chilling. Every time I hear it,
• 2:34
  Speaker 8: it's the way I heard it in the very beginning.
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  Speaker 3: Let's look at what he.
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  Speaker 6: Sees when he walks in. You're going to tell me
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  Speaker 6: he didn't see a five or six inch handle of
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  Speaker 6: a knife stuck in my daughter's chest. with her left
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  Speaker 6: hand on it, wrapped around a white towel. That completely
• 2:51
  Speaker 6: was unobservable from walking in.
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  Speaker 7: Come on.
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  Speaker 3: The whole thing is so bogus, it's ridiculous.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm glad you mentioned that white towel, Josh,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to go too inside baseball, because
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the three of us, well, everybody on the panel, knows
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: these facts so well.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: But for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I feel like I know Ellen so well now, but
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: apartment with her fiance, Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: and some of us think strangled as well. In the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: short space of time, when her fiance left the apartment
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: to go in the building's gym to work out. When, Josh,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: these are Ellen's parents, okay? And you may think sometimes
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: they seem really calm.
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  Speaker 3: You know what they are?
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They've
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings, everything,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide. And in
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: the last days, joining me to explain, John Lucy, journalist,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: PennLive.com and Patriot News of Harrisburg, specializing in true crime,
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  Speaker 2: author of Kill the Story.
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  Speaker 3: John, I can't believe.
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  Speaker 2: We're right here right now. We've actually had good news
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  Speaker 2: after all these years of this ridiculous— actually, it's not ridiculous—
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  Speaker 2: It's a cover-up, a cover-up about Ellen's murder.
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  Speaker 3: Tell everyone what has just happened.
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  Speaker 9: Well, that allegation of a cover-up was about to go
• 4:56
  Speaker 9: to a jury trial in Philadelphia. But in a stunning reversal,
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  Speaker 9: the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy in 2011
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  Speaker 9: and initially ruled it a homicide by 20 knife wounds...
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  Speaker 9: And then about two months later, changed it to suicide
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  Speaker 9: under pressure from detectives who, according to the Greenberg lawyers,
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  Speaker 9: botched the case from the very beginning, losing basically all
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  Speaker 9: the evidence that was at the scene, pressured him to
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  Speaker 9: change it to suicide. And he did on April 4th, 2011.
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  Speaker 9: That's where we've been for 14 years. Until earlier this week,
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  Speaker 9: when Osborne, in a stunning reversal, said he was wrong.
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  Speaker 9: He would classify the case as something other than suicide.
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  Speaker 3: Hold on, John.
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  Speaker 7: John. John.
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  Speaker 2: Everything you're saying is correct, but you got me drinking
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  Speaker 2: from the fire hydrant. It's just too much to take
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  Speaker 2: in right now.
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  Speaker 3: So hold on.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to dissect everything you said and everybody on
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: the panel, please jump in. Let me go straight out
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: to Tom Brennan, longtime family friend who took on this case.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, Tom, A, congratulations.
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  Speaker 2: I almost hate to say it because I don't want
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  Speaker 2: to jinx the case going forward, but it's stunning to me.
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  Speaker 2: How now, after 14 years of the parents fighting, they
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: just sold their house. They put all their money, all
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: their time, all their energy into clearing Ellen's name. That's
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  Speaker 2: all they've got left. This is their only child, right?
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  Speaker 2: And they know she did not commit suicide. But the
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  Speaker 2: fact that it's taken Osborne 14 years to say, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I screwed up.
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  Speaker 3: But listen to this, Tom.
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  Speaker 10: In a public statement, Dr. Marlon Osborne said after reviewing
• 6:59
  Speaker 10: additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from
• 7:02
  Speaker 10: the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with Dr.
• 7:06
  Speaker 10: Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to make
• 7:09
  Speaker 10: the change. In his verification, Osborne writes that he is
• 7:13
  Speaker 10: now unsure of the series of events that happened that day.
• 7:17
  Speaker 10: He also says he doesn't know whether the door was
• 7:20
  Speaker 10: forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was moved by
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  Speaker 10: someone else inside the apartment with her at or near
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  Speaker 10: the time of her death, and the findings of Lindsay Emery, MD,
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  Speaker 10: from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's cervical segment sample.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, that's a lot to take in.
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  Speaker 2: Let's go back to the 911 call.
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  Speaker 3: Listen.
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  Speaker 2: 4601 Flat Rock Road.
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  Speaker 7: Please, Harry.
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  Speaker 3: 4601 Flat Rock?
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 5: What's wrong?
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  Speaker 6: I went downstairs to go work out.
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  Speaker 3: I came back up.
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  Speaker 9: The door was latched.
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  Speaker 7: My fiance's inside. She wasn't answering, so after about a
• 8:01
  Speaker 7: half hour, I decided to break it down.
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  Speaker 2: I see her now just on the floor with blood.
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  Speaker 5: She's not responding.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 6: Is she breathing?
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  Speaker 2: I can't.
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  Speaker 11: Look at her chest.
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  Speaker 7: I need you to calm down. I need you to
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  Speaker 7: look at her chest.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think she.
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  Speaker 10: Listen to me.
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  Speaker 3: Someone's on the way.
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  Speaker 7: Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back?
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  Speaker 12: She's on her back.
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  Speaker 9: Look at her chest.
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  Speaker 7: And tell me if it's going up and down, up
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  Speaker 7: and down.
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  Speaker 11: I don't see her moving.
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  Speaker 2: No, she was not on her back. Joining me, Professor
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
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  Speaker 2: Death Investigator, with over a thousand death investigations under his belt,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you and I, mostly you, did a complete
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  Speaker 2: reenact of what happened to Ellen.
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  Speaker 3: OK, she was propped up.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, her rear end was on the floor in the kitchen,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: but she was propped up in a way against the
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: kitchen cabinet.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 13: So, yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the
• 9:10
  Speaker 13: recreation of Ellen's apartment, one of the things that we
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  Speaker 13: made note of at that particular time, and this is
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  Speaker 13: it's quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially
• 9:20
  Speaker 13: a streak of blood that was, remember, we have to
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  Speaker 13: frame this and say that she was in a seated
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  Speaker 13: upright position. She had a streak of blood that was
• 9:31
  Speaker 13: literally running parallel to her shoulders and Viscous fluid or
• 9:36
  Speaker 13: any kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the
• 9:39
  Speaker 13: laws of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point
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  Speaker 13: in time, she was seated or moved upwards, probably from
• 9:47
  Speaker 13: a position where she was laying down and the blood
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  Speaker 13: had streaked from her mouth at that point in time
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  Speaker 13: and was running parallel to her shoulders. And of course,
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  Speaker 13: something doesn't fit with that. And I think that any
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  Speaker 13: investigation that's working at the scene, particularly observing a body
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  Speaker 13: worth their salt, would make note of that, obviously, at
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  Speaker 13: the beginning. That would be a huge red flag. You
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  Speaker 13: would have to say, well, how in the world could
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  Speaker 13: the blood flow there? Hey, Joe Scott?
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  Speaker 7: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Joe Scott?
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  Speaker 13: Yes, ma'am. I love the way that John Lucy put it.
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  Speaker 13: He refers to it as the wrong way blood.
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  Speaker 8: Listen.
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  Speaker 9: Yeah. We call that the wrong way blood, and it's
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  Speaker 9: one of the many anomalies at the crime scene that
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  Speaker 9: was treated as a suicide scene the night of her
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  Speaker 9: death and thus never preserved and never processed. That is
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  Speaker 9: the original sin of this whole case.
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  Speaker 2: When we're talking about wrong way blood, okay? Now, why
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  Speaker 2: is Joe Scott talking about wrong way blood when I
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  Speaker 2: asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up, propped back against, sitting
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: on the floor, propped back against kitchen cabinets, okay?
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  Speaker 3: He immediately, in.
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  Speaker 2: His mind, he's three steps ahead of everybody else, went
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  Speaker 2: to the wrong way blood.
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  Speaker 3: What does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: That means that the blood on Ellen she's sitting up
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  Speaker 2: is going like this.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. I believe in gravity. I know about Sir Isaac Newton.
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  Speaker 2: So why is the blood not only going the wrong
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  Speaker 2: way across her face.
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  Speaker 3: For instance, nose to ear, if she said it doesn't
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  Speaker 3: match the way her body is found. And not only that,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: the blood was dried.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 2: How could a woman, a young, beautiful woman, a teacher,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg, stab herself multiple times in the back and
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: in the back of the head and it be called suicide?
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  Speaker 2: It will obviously take The federal government's investigation to get
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: the truth about what happened to Ellen Greenberg.
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  Speaker 1: And this is why.
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  Speaker 3: Let me go to Benet now. We're joining us.
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  Speaker 2: Benet and I have researched this case with the help
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: of so many people, including Sandy and Josh. And we
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: went through every single report, every single document. B'nai Naur,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: co-author with me of What Happened to Ellen and an
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: American Miscarriage of Justice.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: P.S.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: All of the proceeds are going to National Center of
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Missing and Exploited Children. B'nai, how long approximately do we
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: think Goldberg, the fiancé, was gone from the apartment in
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: the workout room?
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  Speaker 5: We don't think it was even an hour ago. We
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: don't believe it possibly could have been two hours. We
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: don't believe it was even an hour.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, Benane Hour,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, John Lucy, to Tom Brennan.
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  Speaker 3: What do you think, Tom?
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  Speaker 2: How long was Goldberg out of the apartment to go
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: to the workout room?
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  Speaker 7: Possibly 45 minutes.
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  Speaker 2: And, Tom, I knew you were going to say that,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: but I don't know this. Why do you say that?
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Why do you think it was 45 minutes?
• 13:26
  Speaker 7: Because we can observe him on the security cameras from
• 13:30
  Speaker 7: the building where he walked down the hall to go
• 13:36
  Speaker 7: into the gym and when he came out of the gym.
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: It's on the videotapes.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: The stabbing death of a 27-year-old Philly teacher to be
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong. The
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: family fights for years to get a suicide ruling changed.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: It all started here. Listen.
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  Speaker 11: Okay, do you know.
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: How to do CPR? I don't.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to tell you what to.
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: Do, okay, until they get here.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, God.
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  Speaker 7: Hello?
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Hello? I have to, right?
• 14:10
  Speaker 11: Oh my God.
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  Speaker 7: Allie, please.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm trying not to.
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  Speaker 7: I'm trying not to.
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: Her shirt won't come off.
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: It's a zipper. Oh my God, she stabbed herself.
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  Speaker 2: Where?
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: Will a jury ever hear these 911 calls?
• 14:36
  Speaker 7: Well, as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them.
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  Speaker 2: In the last days, a stunning turn of events after
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: a 14-year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of learning
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: your daughter is dead in the midst of planning a wedding.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: A guy she truly believed she loved. He was Mr. Big, right?
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Then to find out it was suicide?
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: What?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: to find out, no, it's not suicide.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: It's homicide.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Only to have the medical examiner go in a closed-door
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: meeting with police and district attorneys, who I might add,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: one of them has actually gotten immunity in this, so
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: she can't be prosecuted?
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  Speaker 3: That stinks to high heaven. And have it now ruled
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: back to suicide?
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, hell on earth. You can find them at justiceforellen.com.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Sandy, why is it the settlement happens as you're about
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: to strike a jury after 14 years and bring all
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: these people, including the medical examiner, the police, others in
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: to tell what happened in that closed door meeting.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: And then suddenly, oh, no, no, no, no, no. They
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: don't want that. And there's a settlement.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: At the midnight hour, the 12th hour, the last minute,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: as the jury is literally about to be picked.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: What happened, Sandy? The city got together.
• 16:40
  Speaker 8: I guess they were not prepared to really go to trial.
• 16:45
  Speaker 8: They were hoping that they would all have high immunity
• 16:49
  Speaker 8: and everyone would get off. We didn't back down, and
• 16:55
  Speaker 8: they made plans. proposal, which Joe and Will explained to
• 17:00
  Speaker 8: Josh and I.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: It took a little explanation.
• 17:05
  Speaker 8: It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've
• 17:13
  Speaker 8: turned the corner.
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: I don't see why the city has to do another
• 17:17
  Speaker 6: examination on a body that's been in the ground for
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: almost 15 years.
• 17:23
  Speaker 9: We had to agree to that.
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: We had agreed that there were really four options that
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: the medical examiner had come up with, two of which
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: are homicide and unexplained, and the third one is accidental
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: and suicide. We know it's not accidental. We know it's
• 17:44
  Speaker 6: not suicide. So that leaves us homicide and undetermined. That's
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: what the city is going to come up with, probably.
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: I can't say for sure anything. I will say that
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: I still don't trust the city at all.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Well, for good reason, Josh. For good reason, you don't
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: is going to be exhumed?
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: Not if I have anything to say about it.
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: It said the city spokesperson said that the medical examiner
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: will go through her autopsy file.
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: Big deal.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Cut that out of last night. I saw that.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm very curious because Sandy and Josh, if
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Benet and I could, with the help of Joe Scott
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Morgan and Dr.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Dupree and others.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: If we could go through the file and find all
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: of these problems and inconsistencies. and bruises, and bruises to
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: her strap muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: her body, so much evidence.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: That she was killed.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: If we can find that, I'd be very surprised if
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: someone else can't find it. Guys, joining me right now
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: is a very special guest, and I'll tell you why.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Guy D'Andrea is with us. He's now a trial lawyer
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: with Laffey, Bucci, D'Andrea, Reich, and Ryan. But for my purpose,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: it's so important, he was in the DA's office at
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the time they were looking at Ellen's case.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: And somehow, after.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: The medical examiner said, oh yeah, Ellen was murdered, there
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: was a closed door meeting with a member of the
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: DA's office and police. That assistant DA has been given
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: immunity in this.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: That stinks, guys.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Why would a prosecutor who is charged with upholding the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: law and always doing the right thing have to have
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: immunity for what she said or did in this case?
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Door meeting?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Guy D'Andrea, you took a big red flag at the
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: time and was waving it back and forth.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: I think this is a homicide. What happened Guy? And
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: who was the elected DA at that time?
• 20:03
  Speaker 14: Yes, Nancy, the elected DA at the time was Seth Williams.
• 20:06
  Speaker 14: I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough
• 20:08
  Speaker 14: and full investigation. that this, from my perspective, not based
• 20:12
  Speaker 14: on opinion, but based on evidence that you went over
• 20:14
  Speaker 14: copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end
• 20:19
  Speaker 14: of story. And I propose that, and the conclusion that
• 20:23
  Speaker 14: was reached is that it would be changed to homicide
• 20:28
  Speaker 14: after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came
• 20:32
  Speaker 14: up with their conclusion, so long as the conclusions were
• 20:35
  Speaker 14: that her spinal column was pierced. And in fact, it was.
• 20:39
  Speaker 14: I had left the office, so I thought, as of 2017, Nancy,
• 20:43
  Speaker 14: this would be changed. And here we are in 2025,
• 20:47
  Speaker 14: as you said, on the 12th hour, they finally caved,
• 20:51
  Speaker 14: I guess a little bit, we'll call it.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: But there's now going to be an investigation, at least, Guy.
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 20:57
  Speaker 14: An investigation 14 years later that should have took place,
• 21:00
  Speaker 14: quite frankly, in 2011.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Karen Starr, you and I have discussed the old, old
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: story of David and Goliath, right? Here you have, it's
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: almost making me tear up, Karen.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: You've got Josh and Sandy. You've got Pedraza.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: And Brennan, who've been working for free now forever, trying
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: to attack this case.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: And this.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Couple, Sandy and Josh, are taking on not only the
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: city of Philadelphia, not only the district attorney's office, but
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the then AG, now governor, Josh Shapiro. who had a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: got to be so overwhelming, Karen Stark.
• 21:55
  Speaker 11: And to have to live with it for so many years, Nancy,
• 21:59
  Speaker 11: knowing that this is your one and only child.
• 22:02
  Speaker 7: And that there's no.
• 22:04
  Speaker 11: Way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: It doesn't even.
• 22:09
  Speaker 11: Make any sense. Women don't stab themselves most of the time.
• 22:13
  Speaker 11: They take pills. or something that was not physical. And
• 22:18
  Speaker 11: how could she do that to herself? And they had
• 22:20
  Speaker 11: to live with this. The best thing that ever could
• 22:23
  Speaker 11: have happened is that they didn't give up, that they
• 22:26
  Speaker 11: had purpose, they focused, and they were able to do
• 22:30
  Speaker 11: something eventually. Because that kind of grief, it just doesn't
• 22:34
  Speaker 11: go away. It's the worst thing you could possibly think of, right?
• 22:38
  Speaker 11: Your child is dead.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: A shocking admission by the pathologist in the stabbing death
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, do you know how to do CPR?
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: I don't. Okay, I'm going to tell you what to do, okay,
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: until they get here.
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: I want you to keep her.
• 22:59
  Speaker 12: Oh, God. Hello?
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, hi, okay.
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: We're going to do CPR with me.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Over the phone until they get here.
• 23:05
  Speaker 15: I have to, right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: Okay, begin to sit on her back, bear her chest, okay,
• 23:09
  Speaker 7: my ripper shirt on.
• 23:09
  Speaker 14: Okay.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: And that is where The specter of suicide first rears
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: its ugly head right there in the fiancé' s 911 call.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: She stabbed herself. She fell on a knife. Joining me,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: in addition to Ellen's.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Parents, a guy who has been on this case from
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the very beginning and has stuck with it. John Lucy
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: is with me, PennLive.com, Patriot News Harrisburg, also specialty.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: True crime, author of Kill the Story.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: John, earlier when we first started talking tonight, Josh, Ellen's dad,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: brought up a pristine white story. dishrag that Ellen was
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: holding in one hand no blood on it at all
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: now let me understand this John so there's a blizzard
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that day she leaves her little elementary school students early
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: then she calls all the parents to make sure they
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: get home she stops get for gas gets her car
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: ready in case she she needs to go somewhere in
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: the snow and comes home and starts making, I guess,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: lunch or dinner, a big fruit salad. And in the
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: middle of the fruit salad, she goes, oh, to hell
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: with this. I'm going to kill myself. That's the theory, right?
• 25:06
  Speaker 9: And yeah, that's the theory. And that was the operating
• 25:10
  Speaker 9: assumption of the people who responded on that snowy night,
• 25:14
  Speaker 9: the detectives. And there was a representative from the ME's office.
• 25:18
  Speaker 9: They bought into that narrative of suicide. And because of that,
• 25:23
  Speaker 9: There was no forensics. The crime scene, the scene was
• 25:26
  Speaker 9: not preserved as a crime scene because suicide is not
• 25:30
  Speaker 9: a crime. It is a crime, but it's against yourself.
• 25:33
  Speaker 9: So that's why this case never went anywhere. Even after
• 25:38
  Speaker 9: Osborne wrote a homicide, the detectives went back a couple
• 25:42
  Speaker 9: of days later with a search warrant and a forensics team.
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: But the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to reports, the U.S.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Government now investigating the Ellen Greenberg death. The bride-to-be, Ellen Greenberg,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: just 27, when found in her upscale apartment by her fiancé.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: With 23 or more stab wounds, the case goes on.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Has a new twist in the case brought on the
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: investigation by the feds. The federal government has requested documents
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: and information from the Philly PD and other agencies, according
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: to NBC 10. It's unclear how the feds got involved.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe it has to do something with us screaming, please
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: feds investigate every night from the rooftop.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: This is what we know of the facts.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Joining me in addition to Ellen's parents. John Lucy is
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: with me, PennLive.com, Patriot News Harrisburg, also specialty true crime,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: author of Kill the Story. John, Josh, Ellen's dad, brought up,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: she stops for gas, gets her car ready in case
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: she needs to go somewhere in the snow. Comes home
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and starts making, I guess, lunch or dinner, a big
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: fruit salad. And in the middle of the fruit salad,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: she goes, oh, to hell with this. I'm going to
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: kill myself. That's the theory?
• 27:31
  Speaker 9: You know, the one thing about this case where we're
• 27:33
  Speaker 9: at now, yes, the M.E. is going to look at
• 27:36
  Speaker 9: the manner of death one more time. But also, I mean,
• 27:41
  Speaker 9: there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: That's that that.
• 27:46
  Speaker 9: Is now who's going.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: To do it?
• 27:47
  Speaker 9: The FBI, the AG's office, the county district attorney where
• 27:52
  Speaker 9: it resides and is currently an inactive.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: No, no. Pedraza, help me out here.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: We cannot have the Pennsylvania attorney general's office take this
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: because they've got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Okay, that can't be.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Typically, everybody, when we're talking about the AG, that's like
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: the top cop within the state. There's also an AG
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: for the U.S. government, right, for the United States. Every
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: state has an attorney general. So if you think your
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: local DA is screwing up, is falsifying, is not doing
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: their job, you take it up to the top cop,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: the attorney general, right?
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: The attorney general at the time of this incident was Shapiro.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: He's now the government.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: It's got to be the feds, Pedraza. There are too
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: many connections with the AG's office, and I'm not impugning
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: integrity on any of them. It's just like I say, hey, Jackie,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I want you to investigate me. We're friends. We work
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: together every day. That has the stink of impropriety.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Can't do that. Well, that's agreed, Nancy.
• 29:03
  Speaker 15: And ideally, what we'd like to do is to have
• 29:05
  Speaker 15: a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case, given its history,
• 29:10
  Speaker 15: one who is acceptable not only to the family, but
• 29:12
  Speaker 15: also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the
• 29:17
  Speaker 15: resources of the powers of grand jury, et cetera, at
• 29:20
  Speaker 15: their disposal to go forward.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Now, whether that is.
• 29:23
  Speaker 15: A federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor, we don't really
• 29:28
  Speaker 15: fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident and committed.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: But as Brennan, Pedraza and I are discussing, if this case.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Is ruled homicide, which it should be.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: That opens this up to a criminal investigation if the
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: district attorney has the backbone to do it. And if not,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: maybe an independent prosecutor will rule Now, that leads me
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to the specter of a cover-up.
• 30:04
  Speaker 14: Listen.
• 30:04
  Speaker 12: The second suit, which was filed in 2022 and slated
• 30:07
  Speaker 12: for trial this week at City Hall, alleged the investigation
• 30:11
  Speaker 12: into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted in a
• 30:15
  Speaker 12: cover-up by Philadelphia authorities. It sought monetary damages for intentional
• 30:19
  Speaker 12: infliction of emotional distress against several city employees who were
• 30:23
  Speaker 12: involved in the investigation.
• 30:25
  Speaker 7: William, did you hear what I heard?
• 30:28
  Speaker 11: Yeah, we're the only ones here.
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: And she ran in the door, you said.
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: And lanced it shut?
• 30:33
  Speaker 10: No, no, I went downstairs to work out, and when
• 30:36
  Speaker 10: I came back.
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: Up, the door was latched.
• 30:39
  Speaker 11: Oh.
• 30:40
  Speaker 9: It wasn't like it was, you know, we walked.
• 30:42
  Speaker 6: From the inside, and I'm yelling, and I'm telling you,
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: I'm yelling.
• 30:46
  Speaker 11: Was the job broken into?
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: No, no, no, no, no.
• 30:50
  Speaker 7: So no sign of a break-in?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: No, no sign of a break-in at all.
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: I mean, there will be.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, 4601 Flat Rock, and this is the house, right?
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: This is apartment, apartment 603.
• 31:05
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 31:05
  Speaker 7: Oh, my God.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: All right.
• 31:07
  Speaker 12: Thank you.
• 31:09
  Speaker 10: Bye.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: To B'nai Naur, joining me, co-author with me of What
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Happened to Ellen, All Proceeds Going to National Center Missing
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Exploited Children.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: B'nai, also, Mr.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Goldberg stated that he asked the front desk staff security
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: to come with him when he knocked down the door
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: and that he had a witness, the front desk security person.
• 31:39
  Speaker 11: Correct?
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: No, that's correct.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Isn't it true that we located the front desk security
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: person and That security person signed an affidavit. And what
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: did the security person say in the affidavit?
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: him absolutely he could not, that he could not leave
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: his desk, and that he absolutely did not accompany him.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: He was not at that door.
• 32:14
  Speaker 11: He stated that.
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: Over and over and over again in that affidavit.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Another interesting theory emerging. Listen.
• 32:21
  Speaker 10: Dr. Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some
• 32:24
  Speaker 10: reporters Ellen, considering she was found with 20 knife wounds
• 32:28
  Speaker 10: in her head, neck, back, and chest.
• 32:30
  Speaker 11: Dr.
• 32:30
  Speaker 10: Greenberg says he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist Dr.
• 32:35
  Speaker 10: Wayne K. Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review
• 32:38
  Speaker 10: the case.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 32:39
  Speaker 10: Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's a
• 32:42
  Speaker 10: mark over the front of the neck and in the
• 32:44
  Speaker 10: strap muscles over the right side of the neck, claiming
• 32:46
  Speaker 10: these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross also
• 32:50
  Speaker 10: points out the number of bruises over different parts of
• 32:52
  Speaker 10: Greenberg's body are consistent with repeated beatings. He writes, it
• 32:56
  Speaker 10: is my opinion that the investigating authorities should pursue this
• 32:59
  Speaker 10: case as a homicide. It is further my opinion to
• 33:01
  Speaker 10: a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the manner of
• 33:04
  Speaker 10: death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative of
• 33:07
  Speaker 10: a homicide.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg discovered by her fiancé inside their sixth-floor apartment
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: in an upscale Philly suburb over 20 stab wounds. Now,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: the feds demanding documents and information from the Philly PD.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, death investigator at Professor Forensics,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Of course, I'm just a layperson, right? But she bled.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: If she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: there would have been copious amounts of blood, number one.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Number two, there is evidence of strangulation. Specifically, the bruising
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: under the skin, bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo strangulation.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: And then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?
• 34:21
  Speaker 13: I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy, and
• 34:25
  Speaker 13: I don't care who hears it or what they think
• 34:27
  Speaker 13: about it. This has all of the earmarks of what
• 34:30
  Speaker 13: we refer to as overkill. Anytime you have an intimate
• 34:34
  Speaker 13: event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking
• 34:36
  Speaker 13: about from a homicide perspective, where you have 20, 2-0
• 34:43
  Speaker 13: stab wounds to an individual. These are things that we see, Nancy,
• 34:47
  Speaker 13: when there is a tremendous amount of passion over all
• 34:50
  Speaker 13: of my career working at two major coroner and medical
• 34:54
  Speaker 13: examiner's offices, I have never seen, never seen a case
• 34:59
  Speaker 13: where I've had 20 self-inflicted stab wounds to an individual.
• 35:05
  Speaker 13: And then we come to these anomalies on the neck
• 35:08
  Speaker 13: that Josh has pointed out. You had external injuries. And
• 35:12
  Speaker 13: right there, you can see it very plainly. You have
• 35:16
  Speaker 13: an external manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy, this is not
• 35:20
  Speaker 13: mentioned anywhere in the autopsy report. And one more thing.
• 35:26
  Speaker 13: When you have this idea of an intimate overkill event,
• 35:32
  Speaker 13: particularly with a female, one of the things that you're
• 35:34
  Speaker 13: going to do is in the neck, in the neck,
• 35:38
  Speaker 13: and there's only cursory mention of of an absence of hemorrhage,
• 35:42
  Speaker 13: which is striking to me in the autopsy report. The
• 35:46
  Speaker 13: neck is very complex relative to this network of muscles.
• 35:50
  Speaker 13: You had mentioned the strap muscles. You literally, at autopsy,
• 35:54
  Speaker 13: and I participated in this hundreds of times, you literally
• 35:58
  Speaker 13: dissect each muscle group and you flip it back and
• 36:02
  Speaker 13: you look at it both on the anterior, that means
• 36:04
  Speaker 13: the front section, and posterior, the back section, And that
• 36:08
  Speaker 13: gives you an indication as to how much pressure was
• 36:12
  Speaker 13: applied to the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised
• 36:15
  Speaker 13: position where she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these
• 36:21
  Speaker 13: knife wounds. It would not take too much to push
• 36:24
  Speaker 13: this precious angel away. over the edge relative to her
• 36:29
  Speaker 13: ability to uptake oxygen. Do you hear what I'm saying?
• 36:32
  Speaker 13: So all of these things can, you do have concurrence here.
• 36:36
  Speaker 13: I'm just amazed, Nancy, that there is no mention of
• 36:41
  Speaker 13: this in the autopsy report. As a matter of fact,
• 36:44
  Speaker 13: if you look at the internal, where it's listed as
• 36:47
  Speaker 13: internal section, it's just a passing thing to state that
• 36:50
  Speaker 13: there is nothing there. And one more thing, and I'll
• 36:53
  Speaker 13: shut my mouth. Over the course of my career, I
• 36:58
  Speaker 13: have never seen a case where an ME changed the
• 37:04
  Speaker 13: manner of death three times. I've seen it happen. Most
• 37:09
  Speaker 13: of the time what happens is you go with undetermined,
• 37:12
  Speaker 13: then you go to suicide. You go to undetermined, then
• 37:15
  Speaker 13: you go to homicide. You go to undetermined, then you
• 37:17
  Speaker 13: go to accident. That ain't what happened here. This is mind-blowing.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: So, Scott, in all the years I have investigated, prosecuted,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and covered homicides, never once, never once have I seen
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: a COD, cause of death, be changed like this. Usually,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I see a determined homicide if there's any change at all.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: Usually, they know at the get-go what's happening.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Now, I was following along everything you just said, but
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: can I boil it down for you and get.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: A simple yes-no?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Ellen was stabbed 20 times in the back... The back
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: of the neck, the back of the head, covered in bruises.
• 37:54
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: That's not suicide. Yes, no.
• 37:57
  Speaker 13: No, it's not suicide. I'll plainly say that.
• 38:00
  Speaker 10: The Ellen Greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by Greenberg
• 38:04
  Speaker 10: using Google to research suicide methods. The searches were not
• 38:07
  Speaker 10: added to the Greenberg evidence file until years after her death.
• 38:11
  Speaker 10: And Guy D'Andrea says he knows what was in the file.
• 38:14
  Speaker 10: And Google searches about suicide by Ellen Greenberg was not
• 38:17
  Speaker 10: in the evidence file.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: With me is.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Guy D'Andrea, who was in the district attorney's office at
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: the time and reviewed with a fine-tooth comb all the evidence. Guy,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: rapid fire. Isn't it true that Ellen's devices, her laptop
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: and more, were taken from the crime scene by members
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: of the Goldberg family?
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: Is that true?
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: True.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: All of those devices were returned, were they not, after
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: being requested?
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: They were.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Isn't it true that that is not SOP, standard operating procedure,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: for items to be taken from a scene? But wait,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: in this case, it was a suicide, so apparently there
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: was nothing wrong with it.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, no.
• 39:04
  Speaker 14: No, it is not standing operating procedure.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: But this was a suicide, so possibly police didn't think
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: there was anything wrong with it. To Sandy and Josh Greenberg,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: these devices.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Belong to your daughter. Were you asked if Goldberg family
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: members could take them?
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: No.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: What did you have to do to get them back
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: in a nutshell?
• 39:26
  Speaker 9: Beg, borrow, and steal.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, but you did get them back. Now, here's... is
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: my question to Guy D'Andrea. You state you carefully examined
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: the entire file and there was no evidence on her devices,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: any device, that she was looking up manners of suicide.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Is that true?
• 39:46
  Speaker 14: That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide,
• 39:49
  Speaker 14: but more importantly, the computers were examined by the federal laboratory, RCFL,
• 39:55
  Speaker 14: and their report details that nothing of significance as it
• 40:00
  Speaker 14: relates to suicide was found, meaning, plain language, no searches
• 40:04
  Speaker 14: for suicide.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: So you searched, the FBI searched, there was nothing in
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: the police files or the investigation files about her searching
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: for suicide.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: But years later... These searches emerge.
• 40:16
  Speaker 14: That's right.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: To Joseph Pedraza, attorney for the Greenberg family partner, Lamb
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and McCarlin, Joe, I'm stunned.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Only when a jury was literally being struck. Okay.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I've seen it a million times when they
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: look at the jury, they're like, okay, I'll plead or
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I'll do a settlement because the chickens have come home
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: to roost.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: It's happening.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Osborne would have to take the stand and everyone would
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: have to explain why they covered up his failure.
• 40:51
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 40:52
  Speaker 11: Why?
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: What happened in that meeting? That's what I want to know.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: What happened in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: the medical examiner? They would have to under oath say
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: what happened. And instead of doing that, they settled. My
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: question is, what now? Can we get this to a
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: criminal investigation by an independent investigator?
• 41:17
  Speaker 15: We will, and we will take every measure that is
• 41:20
  Speaker 15: possible to get it there. And failing to get appropriate
• 41:24
  Speaker 15: response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority,
• 41:29
  Speaker 15: we're going to pursue civilly.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: We're not letting this end. We've gotten the ball to
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: the goal line.
• 41:35
  Speaker 15: Now the time is to hold somebody responsible for this murder,
• 41:40
  Speaker 15: a massacre of this child.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us, who have been
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: through so much, all out of love for Ellens.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: What next, Sandy? What next? We're going to go ahead
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: on that, Sandy.
• 41:57
  Speaker 6: There's something I would like to bring up.
• 41:59
  Speaker 9: I'm sorry, Nancy.
• 42:01
  Speaker 6: The court that turned us down for not having standing.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Having standing.
• 42:05
  Speaker 6: Not having standing. The last paragraph of the second page,
• 42:09
  Speaker 6: the examination by the medical examiner, the district attorney, and
• 42:14
  Speaker 6: the detectives were faulty. That's by a judge panel. Then
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: they went on for 30 pages saying why we should
• 42:24
  Speaker 6: have justice for our daughter. That's what paved the way
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: to the Supreme Court's dancing.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry. You know what, Josh? You're right. No, no, no, no.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Every fact is so important. You're right.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: are they going to do? Sandy, what do you think
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: will happen next? What do you want?
• 42:49
  Speaker 8: I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide.
• 42:56
  Speaker 8: We'll see how quickly that occurs. Honestly, I don't have
• 43:06
  Speaker 8: a lot of legal ease, so I don't really know
• 43:10
  Speaker 8: where this is going to take us, but I feel
• 43:15
  Speaker 8: that we made.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Progress.
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: It's most important to us that this is done fair
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: like it, but you are not alone.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: This newest development giving hope to Ellen's parents, hope that
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: justice will be obtained. Ellen's parents, their team of lawyers,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: and we here at Crime Stories believe Ellen was murdered. Hopefully,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: with the involvement of the federal government, there will be
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: justice for Ellen.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friends.