Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Rachel Goldberg-Polin: How She Taught Us to Count, Care & Love

Transcript

Rachel Goldberg-Polin: How She Taught Us to Count, Care & Love · The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg

• speaker-1: Shalom, chavirim, vechavirot. Welcome, good afternoon, good evening, good morning. We are so honored and glad that all of you have joined us for Israel in Depth. Israel in Depth is a new virtual experience for the Reform Movement that we are trying here for the first time. This is now a critical opportunity for those who are interested in engaging or hearing or learning more about Israel from experts with an opportunity to ask big questions and connect with others who are working in similar spaces. Shalom Rachel. Now, many of you listening know that Rachel is no stranger to many of us. You have been on wide and far and been, your writing, speaking and your teaching been viewed by many. Rachel of course is an educator, an activist and now an author of the book, When We See You Again. And I think more importantly, she is the mother of Hersh Libby and Orly and married to Jon and living in Jerusalem. where she is coming to us live. Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. It is truly an honor and a pleasure to have you join us today. speaker-0: Thank you for having me, for carving out the time. really my honor to be with all of you esteemed, this ⁓ esteemed And I'm very thankful to be included. speaker-1: Let me just say a word about this group. This is a group of reform movement professionals, educators, people who are just joining to hear and to learn more coming from all across North America and in fact even across the world. And our people have signed up for an entire half day of learning to from you and then to join almost 10 workshops ⁓ to enhance their thinking, understanding, processing. and activism as well on Israel today and to build the relationships between the diaspora and Israel in a thoughtful and of course complex way. So we are honored that you're able to join us to really get this day started. And we thought that your voice and your story and you're ⁓ reflecting on the book that ⁓ just come out four weeks ago will be the perfect opportunity for us to really go in depth with you. So again, my deep thanks. And Rachel, you in the past four weeks, the past two and a half years have been on an unbelievable whirlwind tour. was thinking about, you know, the old Woody Guthrie song that you've been, you know, from California to the New York Isles and so many places in between. Before get into the real, you know, heart of the matter, what's that been like for you? speaker-0: think it's been quite surreal. It's been ⁓ use a phrase that our friend Ruby Chen whose son, Itay Chen was one of the hostages, American Israeli hostages who was killed on October 7th and then taken hostage. He used to say, we're sprinting a marathon when we were all trying so hard to get all of the hostages back. that felt that way these last few weeks of Jon and I were really sprinting a marathon. were greeted with the most loving everywhere went. We were prepared for that not to be the case. We had told to prepare for that not to be the case, but it actually was the case. And look, unfortunately, I always have a branding iron on my back. I'm running with a branding iron on my back or I'm sitting with a branding iron on my back. But it's the same branding iron and it's the same back. And I know that there are people ⁓ are listening to this right now who know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not unique. There are many ⁓ millions people in the world who have buried children and buried people who are intrinsic to the core identity of who we think we are in this world. I know there are people for that that rings familiar. And were busy. But I did feel ⁓ everywhere I went ⁓ Real ability to the And. There's no fear in telling truth anymore, you know. And so that was new and different. And now we just got back and we're here for two weeks and then we are back again But again, it's okay because I almost think running with the branding iron on my back is actually more distracting. speaker-1: How so? speaker-0: Just that, I mean, it sounds terrible, but when you're just sitting with your grief and loss and mourning and pain and misery, it's so much more, you know, on top of you. And I mean, ⁓ of that is right on top of me also when I'm running, but when you have to also run, then you're, you know, trying to do, and I'm a terrible multitasker and I'm a terrible juggler. So maybe that's also a blessing in disguise because it's sort of like the Keystone cops, know, just trying to manage everything in a very inelegant way. But it's of a distraction from ⁓ constant ever present pain. speaker-1: Yeah, well, I'm sure you have been told this many times, but your ability to do that and to show up in so many places is incredibly meaningful and powerful to your audiences and to those with whom you were in conversation. And like today, I actually want to take a step back and want to begin with Hersh And... Before we get to the book, which is I do want to say I'm going to hold it up so that everyone can see the cover of it. I want I had the pleasure of both reading it and listening to it, which were different experiences for me, actually listening to you read the book aloud and I want to ask you about that. But. I want I want to bring up Hersh and I remember meeting Hersh in Jerusalem when he was eight or nine years old and not long after he had moved there and course didn't get to know him as an adult, but tell us just a little bit about something about him, something that captures his essence, his soul, and about how that spirit continues to live in the world. speaker-0: So I actually think it's a really tough question because always ⁓ right? To think of anyone that we really love and then say like, tell us one thing about that person. It's like, I could wax, you know, gorgeousness about Hersh, you know, endlessly and other children. But, you know, we've talked a lot about how I think it's really There's this huge temptation when people die young to heroisize and lionize and mythologize them. And even Hersh and I had that conversation in 2023 on Yom Haazm'ut, excuse me, on Yom Hazikaron, the day before Yom Haazm'ut, when in Israel there are these little videos that are on TV throughout the whole 24-hour period about fallen people is soldiers and different people who have fallen to terror the country. And every single one we were watching. And he said, isn't it amazing? Every single person who dies is the most handsome, the most funny, the most brilliant, the most talented. Nobody gets ⁓ And we this whole back and forth about it. And so I'm very careful. I think what really ⁓ I think so approachable and lovable about Hersh is that he was absolutely extraordinary ordinary. He was extraordinarily ordinary. And yet, you he could, you could spin the globe from across the room and point to a place and he would tell you what you were pointing at. He'd be across the room from you. He was, you know, obsessed with geography and he, ⁓ I think people have heard me talk about how he was. I didn't realize it was unique. He was a radical listener, which now I understand is really, I mean, something that we're so lacking. he, ⁓ here's a little tidbit just for fun. And then we can start that when we used to go to Ikea, always when he was little boy up until he was, you right before he turned 23, He always liked to refer to all of the products by their proper name in Swedish. So you know how at IKEA there's like 27 letter names. So he would say like, can we buy the Kruppflaggehammar? ⁓ bedside lamp. And then ⁓ would call me into his room sometimes and say, mama, I forgot to turn off my Kruppflaggehammar. Can you turn it off for me? He always referred. speaker-1: And that can be a- speaker-0: forever to everything bought at IKEA by proper name. So that's something sweet about Hersh that now only reform movement knows. speaker-1: I love that and thank you for sharing that. And I find that, you know, beyond the famous things that have been so well publicized about him, those tidbits and those details are just so precious and wonderful. ⁓ so, you know, those are the things that when you think back, those are the memories that you'll, know, but part of the package of memories that we'll take with you. Speaking of, ⁓ I wanna with the chapter in the book that you titled Hersh's Words, and that you do tell a story about sort of having the kids clean up their rooms and you discovering an envelope hidden back that dated back to 2015, where Hersh wrote a letter or some notes to himself and then hid them and then you found them. and didn't open them for years. Would you be willing to just share the story and then if it's okay, I'd like to read a short passage from what Hersh speaker-0: So what happened is in 2020 in May, ⁓ March of 2020, when COVID had just really hit all of us all over the world, we were in lockdown as we we the world were in lockdown and the kids were all home and it was before Passover. And so I said to the kids, we're all stuck here anyway. Everybody really clean your rooms, like really, really go through your rooms. Now, Hersh was already in his gap year. And he had finished high school the June 2019. And he was at a mechina, a gap year program. ⁓ they had closed down and he was home. So he was going through his room and he, I went around to each kid's room with a giant garbage bag and I was dumping all their garbage into the massive garbage bag. And in his room, he and his garbage had a bunch of notebooks from high school, which were notable because they, you know, it would say on the cover science and then inside there was one page of notes on science and then the rest of the notebook was empty. then it would say history and there was one page of notes on the first day of history class and then the rest of the notebook was empty. And so I was tearing out those first pages, recycling pretty much unused notebook. And then I got to the bottom of his garbage can and there was actually a small journal, a bound book, a small journal. And I thought that's so interesting because he was not the journal type that I knew of. I opened it and I saw that there were only three pages filled in and the rest was empty. So I tore out the pages, I folded them up and I put them in an envelope and I wrote private. because I figured first of all, it was in Hebrew. My mother told me not to be nosy his handwriting was atrocious. So even if I had wanted to be, ⁓ know, very, ⁓ you know, curious, I probably wouldn't have succeeded, but I had put his words in this private envelope because I thought at some point recently he have written something to himself and I'll say that and I'll give it to him one day. And I put it in the back of my closet. And I forgot about it and that was in 2020. And then once he was stolen and kidnapped. I actually found months later. In my closet. I found the envelope and I knew immediately what it was I saw that it said private and I remembered. Now this was already in spring of 2024. So it was already four years old, but I thought, no, you know what? He'll come home. We'll get him home and I will give this to him one day and say, these are your words from 2020. And then he was killed and I forgot about the envelope. And in December of 2024, I was having a conversation with my daughter Orly in the kitchen and I told her about the envelope and she said, I want to read it. And I thought, you know what? He's gone now. It's okay. She can open it even if it's private. I had assumed it was from the year 2020 when I found it. She opened it up and the date immediately shocked us because it was from 2015 when he was in ninth grade. So it was written nine years before he was killed. you can read it. And she started, so what she, she started to read it to herself and her face dropped and I said, what's wrong? And she looked up at me and she said, it's prophecy. speaker-1: Yeah, and this is what absolutely floored me in reading it. The date is October 26th, 2015. And he writes as follows, life is like the world in order to exist. You have to move and work hard. Every so often you arrive at a tunnel and you enter the unknown and you don't know when you will get out. To walk in the dark in the beginning you are upset and you are not ready and you feel that you arrived at the edge, but it is not the exit or the end. It is just a change in the situation. And a few lines further he writes, who knows how many more tunnels I will encounter, but in contrast to the previous tunnel I entered, I will enter this one with all of my might and hope to pass through it more easily. I mean, think prophecy is really the only word that can properly capture what that what was what was your feeling upon discovering that? I it feels like when we discover an ancient text from the Cairo Geniza or something like that, you know, that ⁓ or you know, unbelievable. ⁓ What your immediate reaction? ⁓ And what did make you think about? speaker-0: Well, the first thing that was really obviously profound was that in that one and a half page and it's small pages, the word tunnel is used 12 times, in Hebrew, minhara is not a word that's like a common word that I mean, now it is tragically because of the tunnels in Gaza, but ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: back to the pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. speaker-0: at that time in 2015 when he was in ninth grade and it was just the beginning of ninth grade. It was musings of a boy. He was shorter than I was then and I'm five feet tall. And we ended up taking that entry. We took the pages to the rabbi at Hersh's high school who knew Hersh well. He went to a 900 student all boys Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, the Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of ARZA Today we have a special opportunity to bring you a conversation that was broadcast live for a North American audience just a week ago with none other than Rachel Goldberg Polin, the mother of slain hostage Hersh Goldberg Polin. Hersh was, of course, as many of us are aware, taken from the Nova Festival, where he was hiding in a Migunit shelter. ⁓ and when Hamas terrorists came and attacked the shelter, he and his best friend Aner Shapiro. speaker-0: ⁓ Orthodox Torani school here in Jerusalem. ⁓ took that passage to the the rabbi of the school and his teacher who he was very close to and they both read it and principal the school said this was his goodbye letter to you that he wrote to you in ninth grade for you to find now and so it's been it's very powerful what's interesting is just that Josh Weinberg: managed to throw seven of the grenades out of the shelter that was, providing shelter for them where they were hiding. And unfortunately, an eighth grenade killed his friend Aner and he lost his forearm in the process, as many others were killed in the attack. Hersh was then taken on a truck into Gaza and was held captive speaker-0: You know, we don't have a opus of Hersh's writing you know, some of the people who've ⁓ been since October 7th, I mean, Hersh's best friend, Aner Shapira, a lot of people know about him. Aner was this outrageously talented composer and artist and he left behind hundreds and hundreds of pieces of work. know, Hersh left behind Josh Weinberg: And as a hostage for three hundred and thirty days he was ⁓ by Hamas on day three hundred and thirty, together with five other young people, often referred to as the beautiful six. Rachel Goldberg Polin has been outstanding advocate for the release of the hostages speaker-0: three pages. And those were the three pages. one and a half of them was that passage. Another passage was also very profound, we that to ourselves. And I don't really know what to make of it, but I really cherish it. It's very precious to us. It is absolutely treated as if it is a page from Torah or like Torah scroll or a Josh Weinberg: After Hersh was killed, she devoted all of her energy to the release of the rest of the hostages and has been speaking and writing and been a very, very public figure since. And we that this is a very important conversation to broadcast as far and as wide as possible. speaker-1: Secret text or yeah. speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. speaker-1: You know, you mentioned Anir Shapira. I had the opportunity to sit with his mother, Shira, two weeks ago on a Shabbat afternoon here in New York. And she also recalled. And I wish that we had the opportunity to share and hear the stories of each person who fell and each victim of October 7th or in the ensuing war and to highlight. But I'm so grateful to you for with us now. Josh Weinberg: Orly, I just want to get your take as an Israeli and as someone who is, you know, very involved with the Hostage Family Forum, and you were at you know, every Saturday night at Havdala in the Hostage Square How is it for you to hear her voice? just give us a little bit about how Israeli society, especially in the political re political arena, ⁓ is feeling hearing some of these voices after they have ⁓ after they have been returned. speaker-1: I think those of us who are not in your situation cannot begin to understand what this kind of grief is like. you've about grief as a of Would you be able share a little bit about, ⁓ or just to help understand what it means to hold grief like that, both in the days when Hersh's fate was unknown Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so I think really Rachel has become one of the more important of the hostages, both before Hersh was was murdered and afterwards. She has really become household figure, really one of the heroes that everyone I hope most Israelis admire. ⁓ both whatever she could before. speaker-1: and then after it did become known. And what's that been like even, you know, from speaking ⁓ you hundreds of thousands of people on a stage or just walking down the street in your neighborhood? What does that mean? Orly Erez Likhovski: Hersh was killed and then afterwards continuing to be so committed to the struggle and obviously ⁓ you know, tape with the number of days, counting the days that the hostages were there was really one of the hallmarks of all of the protests, and it has become really this sign of just marking how much time has passed when they're still there. she's really such yeah, she's such a voice of of reason and of love and of compassion. ⁓ speaker-0: What we experienced from October 7th until the moment that the four angels of death arrived at our house to tell us that Hersh had been killed, those days, the 330 days were... Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ at a time where s when we're surrounded by so much hate and extremism, I think people really are looking for her for this really, really special voice that is continuing to echo in our ears. And that's why I was so so glad that really she opened this ⁓ Israeli in depth ⁓ day the day ⁓ of the the URJ had last week and it was really, really meaningful. I think it is meaningful ⁓ to North American Jews as it is to Israelis, and this is why I'm really, really ⁓ glad we can ⁓ speaker-0: a slow motion terrorist attack of torture and torment really hard to describe. And think in order to get through that. ⁓ container of time and to try so desperately to save him and the other hostages. You know, were, ⁓ guess I should only speak for myself. ⁓ was ⁓ very shoving my mental, psychological emotional, terror and trauma into these. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, ⁓ offer this to our listeners. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. And her book came out ⁓ just ahead of Yom Hazikaron of Israeli Memorial Day, which was a you know really important moment. And captures so much of not only of who Hersh was, but also her grieving process throughout, you know, the last couple of years and has a great deal to say about that. ⁓ but noticeably she prefers to not discuss anything that could be deemed political and even to talk about what it's like to be part of now this. speaker-0: know, satchels buckling them super tight and shoving them into storage lockers because I needed to ⁓ on the task at hand, which is saving these people, saving my son. And so ⁓ what came natural, which would have been curling up in a ball in the fetal position on the floor and weeping ⁓ wailing wasn't an option, even though that was what I wanted to do. Josh Weinberg: tragic group of ⁓ bereaved families in Israel, ⁓ which sadly has grown and grown over the past couple of years. you know, what are you hearing in terms of, you know, the news discourse and, you know, thinking about the preparation for the next, you know, upcoming elections, in terms of the voice voices of the hostages and their critique for ⁓ speaker-0: And so I was doing all of this severe damage to my psyche in order to function. then had huge blow, you know, 330 days in. So I didn't experience grief during the first 330 days. I did experience grief for Aner because I loved him. And I did experience grief for other people who I Josh Weinberg: For the government right now. You know, Rachel's husband, Jon, spoke very powerfully about, you know, ⁓ pushing back against Netanyahu and some of the, you know, know, the the high ranking political members of the government who were gloating about having brought home all the hostages. And then he said, you know, please you did not bring all speaker-0: knew of who I grew to love, and therefore I grieved them as I heard people were dying and getting killed. But grief that I started to experience from the second that we were told that Hersh was never coming back alive was ⁓ so ⁓ and and voracious. Josh Weinberg: all of the hostages home. what are you hearing in terms of that and and and and do you anticipate that to be a growing and louder chorus of voices as we get closer to the elections? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think we hear a lot of the hostage families and the hostages themselves who came back ⁓ speaking especially about state commission of inquiry. I think this is like a huge that needs to be addressed ⁓ before we can really really start the healing process of this traumatic ⁓ event. and many hostages are ⁓ very vocal about that and the need to actually inquire what had happened. ⁓ speaker-0: And my initial response was, know, no, no, no, no. And really trying not to have it come in. You know, it was like this horrible tsunami that you're putting down all your shades and you're putting up your hurricane, you know, shutters and just trying desperately to prevent this destruction from coming. And ended happening is I ⁓ started ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: How come October 7th has happened? How come the army didn't come to rescue them? How come hostages were were, you know, left to die? ⁓ and I think many are vocal, especially around this issue, including about other issues and the need to replace the government that has really deserted them and did not fulfill the basic obligation of a government to its citizens. ⁓ I think it is very much on the horizon as and as we get close to the elections, it's definitely going to to still be there. ⁓ speaker-0: It actually happened through the writing that I started to realize, what is it that I'm feeling? What is this? And I realized that this is actually, and there's no hiddush here. This isn't, I'm not creating some new epiphanal idea. I think everyone who is here with us right now is aware of this. I just wasn't aware of it, that this grief ⁓ the love that is continuing to grow. Josh Weinberg: Well, we will watch out for that and I'm sure we will have more to discuss ⁓ about that as it gets closer. So thank you so much. And without further ado, we bring this ⁓ really moving conversation with Rachel Polin. speaker-0: in the absence of the person I adore. so then I had this ⁓ moment, first of all, that. Josh Weinberg: Thank so much for listening to this critically important conversation and please feel free to share outwards far and wide. speaker-0: We only grieve people we love. ⁓ it's proof that love is stronger than death. grief comes when someone dies. And you're feeling it because of the ⁓ depth the vibrancy of that relationship that you have with that person. So in a way, it's kind of a privilege. It's a price you pay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. speaker-0: for that glorious, magnificent relationship that you've had. And I did not know that before. So then all of sudden I started to say, wow, know, maybe I'm actually speaking Lashon Hara about grief. Maybe I'm actually speaking gossip and giving grief a bad name when really is a badge of love. It's a badge of love. You don't grieve people you didn't know or you didn't, I shouldn't say that. You can grieve people you didn't know, but you don't grieve people you didn't love. Josh Weinberg: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, please leave a five star review, something like this conversation really meant a lot to me and was very powerful. And I want to come back to this podcast for more such deep and meaningful conversations. Share a post on social media and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. And of course, if you want to sponsor an episode, we would love to talk to you about that. Thank you, Todah rabah. speaker-0: what was really just ⁓ really was so many people grew to love the hostages without ever knowing them. And so many people grew to love Hersh without ever knowing him. And therefore so many people grieved Hersh and continue grieving Hersh even without ever having known him because the love is stronger than the death. Love is stronger than time. Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye bye. speaker-0: And love is more creative than having to meet someone face to face. And that is really... just the most human, beautiful experience, I think. speaker-1: That is such a powerful and beautiful sentiment. And that should be a lesson, I think, to ⁓ of us who have actually studied pastoral care and how to work with people in these moments. And that ⁓ is it's just beautiful. And I think that so many of us here around the world, and especially those in North America, really identified with your story. and with Hersh and came to feel that strong connection than others whose stories are, I think, know, are equally important. And yet found this connection or we found this connection with your story, with Hersh, with all of the incredible circles of people who are connected to you and to your family and to Jon, of course, and to the many circles. I'm wondering, you know, We often in rabbinical school, I remember being taught on how to coach people on what to say and what not to say that times of bereavement ⁓ in times of, you know, with the ⁓ intention of comforting people. And especially the notion of, ⁓ time will heal or time will make things better. How that come to you? You know, and I remember hearing you speak on multiple occasions. helping people to understand that notion of time and your love growing actually stronger, you be willing to reflect a little bit on that feeling? speaker-0: I love that you're bringing that up. So first of all, I think if you really want to make someone who's in active grief and bereavement feel absolutely terrible, definitely tell them time heals all wounds. I would say, first of all, it's interesting. We were at someone's house yesterday for Shabbat lunch and have daughter who had gone to South America after she finished her, her ⁓ mandatory ⁓ National Service here in Israel and they missed her terribly She was gone for three months and it had been the longest that they had gone without seeing her and then she called home and said actually there's a whole group of us now Israelis and we're gonna go down to Argentina and I'm so excited and they said okay, and then Yeah, you know another it was like another month and then she said now we're going to Chile and and then that was another month and then they just the trip was getting really long and they were really suffering and I thought Yes, and you know what? The longer it goes the more you miss her don't say ⁓ you know, we thought she was going to be gone for three months and now she's gone for five So we don't miss her anymore ⁓ what happens in real life? happens in real life. So meaning now it's been, know, a thousand days that I haven't seen Hersh and guess what? I miss him more, ⁓ less. So, know, and that's something that I think is, is something people don't want to hear because people love us and people love people who are in pain and people hate pain. And so people don't want to think that we're in pain or that we're going to be in this pain forever. But we are going to be in this pain forever. And so when we have people who don't allow permission to feel OK to say that, it actually ⁓ this form of this new term that I've heard that ⁓ of you have heard me talk about, because I just think it's absolutely godly, this term called toxic positivity, which is people will not permit others to just be broken. And you know, you can be both meaning I am broken. I'm also very blessed. I also have joy and beauty and laughter in my life and I am broken. And I talk about it in the book when, you know, I remember so vividly going to see the first Superman movie with my dad in the winter of 1979. And Christopher Reeve was like the greatest thing in the whole wide world. And then when he was in his forties, he had this tragic accident, fell off a horse, broke his neck. And guess what? He was broken forever. His neck was broken. It would have been completely perverse and inappropriate if someone came up to him three years in and said, can you snap your fingers yet? It wasn't going to happen. It doesn't mean he didn't have a beautiful life filled with meaning and purpose and aim and and love and family and experiences, but he had to learn to roll through the world differently. so when I heard this idea of toxic positivity, it rang very true to me because people are desperate, desperate, hungry, starving for us to be better. And I'm trying to say I might become different, but I will not be better because guess what? He's still not here. And is problematic. Dr. Mary Frances O'Connor, who studies sort of like the psychology of loss and bereavement, talks about there are certain homeostatic needs. We need water. People need water. things need water. So if you're in the desert and you have no water, this is a problem. And it's not going to get better. But ⁓ learn how to adapt sometimes to that are homeostatic. I need Hersh, but I can't have him the way that I am used to having him in the ways of experiencing him with the five senses that normally we experience people with in this world. And so I have to out how do I get this water in a different way because I can't have it the way that I had it before. And I think that, you know, I came home after learning from this wonderful woman, Oriah, The idea of toxic positivity and I googled what's the antidote? What's the thing? What is the opposite? And it was amazing because it said tragic optimism. is me. I am a tragic optimist. I'm an optimist, but I've been wounded. I'm an optimist, but I'm tragic. I'm always going to have this aura of this beautiful boy around me. And everyone's always going to know that he left in a way that was really tragic. And being able to talk about it is something that Rav Shagar talks about, that he grew up in a house of two Auschwitz who had lost all of their family. And they were so broken from it that they never spoke about it. And it created what he termed incurable muteness. Wow. And it really ⁓ damaged And he in the Holocaust. And then it damaged the following generation. parameters up around people who are in so much pain and not allowing them to just say, I am broken. This me. And it mean that it's only me. I'm multifaceted. So I am broken. And I am super disordered. I just read this article by the. American association like psychiatric association that said if you are grieving for more than six months you have a disorder I was like, ⁓ I have a disorder and then it said and if you're grieving for more than a year then you really have a disorder and I was like then sign me up because want the eternal and evolving love for my son ⁓ would like that disorder it's actually a privilege and and this is the Latin for of. So or disagree or so disorder. Yes, I am the opposite of order in every way, in the metaphorical of I feel completely and in the literal way of while it's not unique, does feel out of order. to bury my child. And so yeah, I'm disordered and I actually am really fine with that. speaker-1: Yeah, of all, you gave so many different references that ⁓ have to compile them and send out links to our audience in of, you know, psychology of grief and Rav Shagar. Rav Shagar, you know, by the way, no, ⁓ you know, but I love that writes about the broken and the unbroken tablets actually. I was thinking about that and what it means to be broken and sort of the reference that you shared with us. And also, just thinking about the differences in culture. mean, in American culture, people want the sort of engineered response of like, how are you? I'm fine. And that may be different, you know, in Israeli culture as well. And, you know, that conversations. But in holding the grief, would you share with us just about the process of writing the book? How did that come out and what was that like for you? And, you know, was it therapeutic? Was it important? someone, you know, did, when did you know that you had to get all of these words on paper and put it into a book? for the world to read or listen to. speaker-0: So it was really very much just that my soul was buckling from the pain and the, I felt like I was choking and drowning. I actually felt like I was being waterboarded, whatever that experience would be like. Like I felt like I was dying. I actually felt like I was dying. And I mean, we are all dying, but I felt like I was, like I could feel the life slipping away from me. from the weight of the suffering and the pain. I think it was really Jon said to me at some point, like, you have to tip this out, you know? And it was almost like performing the Heimlich on myself of, just to, know, where is the Ipikak? I don't even know if they use that anymore, but when Hersh was a baby, we used to have, you'd buy Ipikak to encase. the baby would ingest something that was poisonous. You were supposed to induce vomiting by having them take this. So I felt like I was like drinking Ipacac to get this out, like excising or casting off the darkness that was ⁓ me. And what I realized, you you referred to it, that something that's really an awful quality of mine is that people ⁓ kindly, benevolently, innocently, innocuously would still say, how are you? And they totally mean it in the most sincere and loving way. And to me, I'm so astonished that someone could possibly look at me with this clear knife that I see, this dagger sticking out of my heart and my chest. And I think, how in the world can you ask me that when you see that this thing is sticking out of me? I have to calm myself down and say, They don't see it. They do not see it. think I was trying to think, what is it like when someone doesn't see something? How do we explain something to someone who doesn't see it? How do you explain to someone who was born blind? How do you explain blue to someone who was born blind? speaker-1: Who's never experienced it before. speaker-0: And so suddenly I started to describe this thing that is so present and obvious for me and yet most people cannot see it. I I want you to see my blue. I want you to see my pain. I want you to see it. so I started to realize that these words that I was just putting into packages, packages of words of pain the answer to how are you. And the tragedy, the reason I'm saying, and I'm very aware that this is like my problem. you said culturally, I just wanted to point out that two things, first of all, yes, in America, when we say, how are you? And we always say, fine, how are you? Or, okay, how are you? And we really don't mean it. It's sort of like in French when you say, va? Oui, sa va? ⁓ don't even say it. You say like, how are you? Yeah, how are you? And I love that, but in French. And then, ⁓ I realized that in Hebrew when you say ma'shlo mech, what the root? How is your shalom? How is your shalom? ⁓ is your peace? I have no peace. So like it's so weird. It's so interesting. So all the more so I feel like when we ask people how they are, someone on MSNBC actually once it went to commercial, they asked me, they said, what should we say? We have a colleague who's going through a really bad speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Family loss. should say? said, look, you could ask her. How are you? Just know that either she's going to tell you the truth. And it's bad. Or you're making her lie. Because she's going to feel like she can't tell you the truth. She doesn't want to make you feel bad. So she's going to lie to you ⁓ and. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: What I'm what I'm saying is for me, I don't like being asked how I am because I feel like I'm put in that position. I was once put in that position by an anchor. He asked me how I am. And I said, I'm suffering. And he said, no, really, how are you? And I said, I'm really suffering. And then he hated me and I hated him. And then we had to have this conversation. And I thought. It's terrible because I was telling him the truth. He definitely didn't want that. I didn't want to say, I'm OK. I'm getting there. I'm breathing. I'm trying. No, I don't want any of that. I'm suffering. Why should I have to lie? yet, there's a mother whose daughter was a hostage and was killed. And I'm friends with her. And she told me that when she goes to the grocery store, if every single person Along the way that sees her does not ask her how she is. It hurts her. speaker-1: ⁓ speaker-0: So you know what that means? Everybody's screwed. speaker-1: Yeah, everybody. And the people have... speaker-0: Because who knows what, like for one person, what like crushes one person exactly what my friend who has the same loss, what needs. She needs exactly what I don't want. So that means kind, benevolent, caring, ⁓ supportive people are really in a lot of trouble. And I'm her forgiveness now. It's very early. It's only Sivan. a Chodesh Tov to everyone, but I'm asking you way ahead of Yom Kippur, forgive me. I'm tam speaker-1: we have time and we of course forgive you. But we also thank you for pouring that out into these pages. And for those who have not read it yet, please go and do that. It is a beautiful, beautiful expression that I could not put it down. And then I listened to you read it and that was actually more powerful. And I want to... take some of the, you laid things out chronologically a little bit in terms of sort of the timeline of what happened of when you last saw Hersh to ⁓ 7th to the tragedy of those days from your early conversations with Anderson Cooper in terms of getting footage of Hersh. And I wanna. come to a moment on that long timeline, 491 days later, when was a wave of released hostages, including one whose name is Or Levy. And was a lot that Or learned upon his release, course, about the of his family. ⁓ if ⁓ I'm correct, did know what happened to Hersh. And then he asked to meet you ⁓ you and Jon went to meet him. And what was that meeting like and what did you learn about Hersh from Or? speaker-0: So that was on the night of 496. He had been released on 491. Or Levy Elie Sharabi and Ohad Ben Ami had been released on Shabbat morning of 491. And people remember that because they were the ones who came back and they looked like they had come and stepped out of a reel from 1945. Their pallor. speaker-1: 26, yes. speaker-0: was black and white, and they were all absolutely skeletal. And Or, seeing his older brother that morning, ⁓ Michael, found out, first of all, that his wife, Einav, had been killed in the bomb shelter that Or had been taken from. And he didn't know that. He had been reunited with his young son, who was two years old. They had taken him to his grandmother's house very early Shabbat morning of October 7th and said, we'll see you later. And then both of this child's parents were missing for almost 500 days. So Or was walking back into like a very complicated emotional, psychological, mental, physical, spiritual, religious, know, in every single way, he was walking back into a lot of recovery. And he said to How is Hersh? And Michael was thinking, what are you talking about? Because Michael knew us. We had met his brother, Michael, when we all went to go speak to the pope in November of 2023, which I always say is like the most ridiculous sentence to ever come out of my mouth. OK, fine. When I was going to see the pope. speaker-1: At least this pope is, you you're a landsman speaker-0: I know I could have really bonded with this Pope. This was we went we met Pope Francis. so, Michael knew that did not know Hersh. So it made no sense that or is now saying how is Hersh doing? And so they had to say Hersh was actually killed 160 days ago and Or was crushed and couldn't believe it. And that's when he said, first of all, he was so giving in In his shatteredness, he was so generous and benevolent because he asked to meet with the Shapira family. He asked to meet with the Danino family. He asked to meet with the Sarusi family. And we were the last family that he was meeting with that week. So he each day was meeting with people he had met in the tunnels who had been killed. And he wanted to tell those people about their children. And that's That evening of 496 will be a day until I am in my grave. It is a turning point in my life, absolutely, because from the moment we were told Hersh was killed on the morning of 330, like between 330 and 331, until that night of 496. We were in the blackest of blackest of deepest of darkest of most painful place I've ever been. And I wouldn't wish it. I actually have said this and I truly mean it. I wish it on no one. not one, no one, not even the people who did this to Hersh. No one, no one, no one. It's so bad that I don't ever want anyone to feel what I have felt. And ⁓ with And he shared with us that during their captivity, they were actually moved. He and three men he was with were moved into a tunnel where suddenly these two young men come in one of them is Hersh. And he was held with Hersh for almost three days. And when you're in just a dark tunnel and there's nothing, when you have a conversation with someone for days, it really resonates and stays. And he and Hersh very much bonded. Hersh was right next to Ori Danino, who, explained to us that Ori was always on Hersh's left because he was Hersh's left hand with his right hand. So between the two of them, they had three hands and they had figured out how to maneuver because Ori Danino and Hersh had been held since the first day. And didn't know that. And so we found that out and I mean that that part of the book is very long piece because I really recount like in the car after we left or I was feverishly writing every single thing he had told us not for it. I just wanted to remember it and I was actually recording on my phone because we Jon and I were saying my gosh and don't forget this and don't forget that because it was life altering and he gave us back. Shafts of light. And which is so appropriate since his name is Or. in our tradition, we believe that people still have ruach hakodesh when they name their children, that we have divine inspiration when we name our children. It's very clear to me that Or Levy's parents had divine inspiration when they named him Or, because he absolutely brought light to my life that I will have always. And he explained to us that Hersh was saying in the tunnels, when you have a Why he explained to us that Hersh was saying in tunnels, when you have a Why You can bear almost any how. Frankl said it in the Holocaust, people, we're going to get through this. And he said to Or, your why is your son. You have a son at home. ⁓ You're going to You can bear almost any how. Frankl said it in the Holocaust, people, we're going to get through this. Everybody figure out what's your goal, what's your aim, what's your purpose. And yes, our how is that we're here. We've got to get through this. And he said to Or, your why is your son. You have a son at home. ⁓ going to speaker-1: Which he remembered from the shelter on that day. Which he remembered from the shelter on that day. speaker-0: Because he said Or told us that when the gunman came in Or was shouting to them I have a son don't kill me. Please don't kill me. I have a son at home. Please don't kill me and Hersh remembered they were talking to each other, they didn't recognize each other and all of sudden Hersh said you're the one from the bomb shelter Which is very strange that Or didn't realize that this one ⁓ boy Was boy who had his arm blown off he in the shelter, but Or told us that his arm was so healed when he was talking to him 50 days later in the tunnels that Or assumed that this was an amputee who had come to the Nova as an amputee. And ⁓ us how, you Eli Sharabi also called Jon that week say, your son was telling me when you have a why you can bear any how. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: when you have a why you can bear anyhow. And so this was huge for us. I have never read the book before then. Of course, I went running to buy. And so this was ⁓ huge for us. I have never read the before then. ⁓ speaker-1: The Victor Frankl speaker-0: And it's, you know, I travel with it now. The book is always with me and the pages are so turned down and then each page is turned down more and more. And in bad shape, that book, but I love it. And it's, and it's so. I feel like it's, it's from beyond. was like Hersh saying here, mama, here's a how to, here's a how to. And I know what my how is, you know, my problem is I'm trying to. speaker-1: and Hersh read it ⁓ speaker-0: feel like it's, it's from beyond. was like Hersh saying here, mama, here's a how to, And I know what my how is, you know, my problem is I'm trying to. Jon and I are both figuring out what is our why going to be for the rest of our lives here. But I know my how is How do I get through the rest of this world without Hersh in it? Jon and I are both figuring out what is our why going to be for the rest of our lives here. But I know my how is how do I get through the rest of Olam HaZeh? How do I get through the rest of this world without Hersh in it? And that is really challenging. But to have this book and have some direction and to have, look, I'm a huge believer. I say all the time, thank God I believe in God, thank God I believe in God, thank God I believe in God. Billions of people don't and they do just fine. I don't think I could do it. And so for me, I just feel that Or ⁓ was a beautiful moment in my life. And he told us many other things, ⁓ but for me was extremely important. speaker-1: That is incredible. And there's so much there. And I wish we had another like three hours to sit and talk about all these things, especially, you the Viktor Frankl, who, ⁓ if remember correctly, also ⁓ coined term tragic optimism that you mentioned. ⁓ speaker-0: That's the big hop is I just learned a couple, ⁓ before we left in April was when I met this young woman who told me about toxic positivity. And then I was obsessed. So I came home and I looked up what's the opposite tragic optimism. And then I looked up who coined that term because I thought that's brilliant. And it said, Victor Frankl And I was like, all right, thank you, Hersh. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, this is too much to be. Yeah. speaker-0: It's ridiculous. It's so ridiculous that it's obviously holy. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And there's so much beauty and meaning and Jewishness there. I want to, before I get to sort of the final question, then wrap up, I want to ask just a minute about faith and belief. We are a religious movement. We have, you know, 850 congregations across North America and around the world. at the center of our synagogue's activity is Tfillah is prayer. You wake up in the morning, every morning and say these words, can be translated either as, thank or ⁓ I or admit almost that here's my soul. And what does mean you? And ⁓ how has that challenged? And what do you want to share to an audience of religious Jews who may each subscribe to different flavors of theology and who may you know, struggle with different things, me the part of your life that that fills or that that, you know, echoes at least. speaker-0: So I mean, all of us are very aware that this idea of God is really amorphous and different for every single one of us. I think even if we have twins who grow up in the same home and go to the same school and go to the same shul and go to the same group and do every single thing together their whole lives and they pray three times a day together. They have absolutely different ideas of God. so I just think there isn't this, ⁓ would be a lot of fun if there was just this monolithic, easy idea of God to plug into. I did not grow up in a religious home, but when I was 13, my parents made the decision to put me into an Orthodox school. And I started to become more observant. And ⁓ one thing to another, ⁓ but I... I have been someone who believes that there is like this huge vibrant tapestry, much larger picture than any of us are privy to. And I think as moderns, it's very hard for us to digest this idea of we don't know everything and we probably never will know even like a one one hundredth of everything. That's really humbling and it's really hard for us. But ⁓ grateful that when I wake up to me it feels what I think Moda Ani means is I am grateful to you creator of the universe for giving me back my soul you have tremendous faith in me even if I don't get it so like this morning I woke up and said ⁓ here I am again it's Groundhog's Day right I'm back but back because I'm not done and I will keep being back until I'm done. And I don't know what my doneness is. What is the chesed that I have to do in this lifetime that is not complete, that I'm still here? I don't know. But OK, because what I've realized in ⁓ horrific place in which I now live, which is horrific and beautiful, horrific and blessed, horrific and joyful, What I realize is what this woman who also lost a son on October she lost a son that day. She told me, and I think it's profound. She just told me this while I was traveling in America, she wrote to me from here. She lives in the South. She said, we have to get used to the fact that we'll never get used to the facts. And is life in Olam HaZeh That is here. and learning to live in that uncertainty the uncertainty and that there is someone steering the ship, that to is where God meets us. speaker-1: That profound and beautiful and wonderful message for our people to take. And as our time is wrapping up, if I can just end with one last excerpt from towards end of the book, building on the of what's our why and our how, and then maybe I'll ask you to just share with us one closing thought that you write the following. Wherever your why leads me, I'll do it. I will carry your why all over the world. I will flip the usual pattern and I will make you proud of me since I will live longer here in this place than you did. Instead of you doing things in your life and turning over your shoulder to say, look, I did it. I'll do that for you. Look, Hersh, I'm doing it. I don't know what it is, but it's your why. So I'm running to figure it out, to discover it. I will doggonit If it's the last thing I do, I will do it. I will grab the compass off your desk. and I will draw the map. Rachel, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be with us. I hope that we get to have many conversations with you as you draw that map with Hersh's Compass. And I would just ask you if you would leave us with one parting thought ⁓ where map is taking you or something that want us to take away from. from your world and your experience. speaker-0: There's so many things, but I'll keep it brief. say, you know, I think what I, what I really grew to that I think I always knew, and I think each of us know this whole idea of how each person is, ⁓ own world, a world unto themselves. And we very much hold, hold close to us that part of our identity as Jews is, the holiness of each person. each and every single person. And along the way, when Jon and I were fighting so hard, I started to realize that many were looking at Hersh as one boy in the whole wide world. And I was looking at the whole wide world in one boy. And then I think that that's a normal way that every parent should feel about every child and that every child should feel that their parent feels about them. and it's something that we should be proud of. I'm, you know, blessing for all of us to have strength and hope and light in these times that are so clearly sticky and tricky and messy and yet enrobed in holiness and sacredness and godliness. speaker-1: Rachel Goldberg Polin, thank you. I'll say Laila Tov because it's already night where you are. will be following you wherever your journeys take you and I hope that everyone will have a chance to read ⁓ powerful words. Please our love of course to the rest of your family, ⁓ to and to Orly and Libby and to your community and I hope that we can do this again sometime. Thank you, you, thank you. Toda Raba.