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Relationship Advice for Couples: What to Discuss Early On | Love Matters Podcast · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things people should be talking
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: about even on a first date?
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: I think everything. Monogamy is not the default setting.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: They have a close friendship with an ex. Oh, interesting.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: This is where I would say it depends.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: There's this notion that you should be chill, especially for women. Like,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: what kind of crazy woman's already asking on the first date, like,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: what's your mom like? What if you actually just want
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: lots of sex?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Women are not allowed to have desire. She's considered loose.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Very often, I hear men come into session and say,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I don't feel emotionally safe, but sex is expected of me.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Don't you dare judge her.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: How much emotional awareness in relationships is too much?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I love this audience.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: All been to therapy. Hello and welcome to Love Matters.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: My name is Lisa Mangaldas and this is a very
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: special episode because we have a live audience and a
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: very special guest. But before I dive into the topic,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do a little audience poll. Are you
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: guys good?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Who here finds it difficult to apologize? Well, we have
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: a very apologetic audience, don't we? Who here tends to
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: have the same argument again and again with their partner?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: More hands. Okay, who here has considered going to couples therapy?
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Brings us perfectly to our guest, Anne Philippos. She is
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: a couples therapist, psychologist. She's practiced for over 16 years.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: She's someone I've long been a fan of. And I'm
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: so delighted that we get to deep dive into all
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: of the messy bits of the relationship process that no
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: one trains us for. There's so many conversations we really
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: should be having earlier and more clearly. And we're going
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: to talk about all of it. But Anne, straight off
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the bat, how should couples know that perhaps it's time
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: to seek help?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. Well, let me start with
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the other thing. Often couples come to therapy when that's
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the last straw, right? And that's not helpful. So when
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: you can come to couples therapy at different points in time,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: you've just started dating and you want to get to
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: know your partner. You want to just, it's a preventive measure.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: And when you feel like the way you've been problem
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: solving doesn't work anymore, right? Go to couples therapy. Speak
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to somebody else who is a neutral party, who's objective,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: who's trained. That is key. And that is not a
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: family member. It doesn't work. And most Indians go to
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: family members. It does not work.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest misconceptions around couples therapy?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: The number one is that couples therapy is about keeping
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: the couple together. It's not. Couples therapy can be about
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: learning to separate amicably, to co-parent. It's learning to fight
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: better together. It's learning to talk about and build a
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: vocabulary around sex and money and infidelity, right? All of
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: those things come together for couples therapy.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about all of it. But
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: before we get into the really tough stuff, let's start
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: at the very beginning. What are some of the things
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: people should be talking about even on a first date?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I think everything. I think nothing is too early to
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: talk about, right? especially if you know what you want
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: out of dating, right? If you're using the partner or
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the person that you're prospectively meeting to clarify your position,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: that's not helpful. So if you look at them and
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: you think, there's so much compatibility and chemistry, this is amazing,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: and the other person's iffy about kids, and you're like, oh,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I'm iffy about kids. That doesn't work, right? So weave
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: in the conversation right in the beginning about kids, money, faith, spirituality, health, right?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Not as an interrogation checklist at any given point in time,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: but out of a point of curiosity. So early enough
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: is good.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I'm a chronic oversharer. So I'll be like anyone willing
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: to listen, you know, I want to tell them everything.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: But I do think, I do think sometimes in relationships,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I myself haven't known clearly enough what I'm looking for.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Especially as someone who's not looking for marriage. I mean,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I want companionship and love, but marriage isn't the be-all
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and end-all for me for the trajectory of a relationship.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: So what's your advice to people who might be a
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: bit confused about what it is that they are looking for?
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Spend some time with yourself and clarify the position. If
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: you don't know, that's also fine, right? You can go
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: into a date and a conversation or two will help
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: you clarify things. Sometimes the relationships help you clarify that, right?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: If you want kids, don't want kids. If you want marriage,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: like you said, or don't want marriage. But ideally, spend
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: some time with yourself. Get to know yourself before you
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: take that to the other person and project it onto them.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: That's not helpful. For sure. Okay, what are some of
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the very common things that people tend to avoid that
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: they really should get more comfortable addressing?
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Okay. Talking about sex, talking about money, have a conversation
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: about what infidelity looks like, right? Monogamy is a agreement.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: It's not the default setting, right? And I think very
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: often I see this with couples. They don't talk about
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: what infidelity looks like, right?
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: What is cheating?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: And that is dangerous because is liking a post of
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: somebody on Instagram cheating? I don't know. Keeping in touch
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: with your ex? One-on-one coffee shooting?
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Who knows, right?
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: It's about what's comfortable for each other. How you're defining it,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: how you're defining loyalty is key. The fourth one is family.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: How close do you want them? What are the boundaries
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: around family? How involved do you want them in your life?
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: And that is the one that is always left out.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So these are my top four things.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I think early on in the courtship process, you know,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: There's this notion that you should be chilled, you know,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: especially for women. You should be chilled.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Like what kind of crazy woman's already asking on the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: first date, like, what's your mom like? You know, what
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: do you you know, I'm only interested in something that's
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: monogamous and long term. What do you want? Like there's
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: this idea that some sort of nonchalance and like keeping
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: your options open, especially with dating apps and things. that
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: you should be chill with this stuff until some conversation
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: is had, you know, everyone's in a situation ship. Um, right. Uh,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: what do you think that perhaps to some extent, gender
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: also has to do with how easily we're able to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: convey our expectations. Um, and what can we do better?
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Always be shallant.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: If that's the word. Always be shallant. Yes.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Um, And why should you be any other way, right?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: If this is your truth, if these are the things
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that are important to you, go in. Because you can
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: pretend to be a certain way for the first three dates,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: but this is prospectively the person you're going to wake
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: up with three years down the line. How long are
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: you going to keep your pretense going, right? So ask
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: your questions. And as for gender, increasingly I'm finding, and
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about heterosexual relationships right now, I'm finding that
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: both men and women are willing to ask these questions.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: The moment they build the vocabulary around it, they're able to.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: And this is where I love queer couples, right? They're incredible.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Each time I've worked with them, they have taught me
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: so much more because they're so comfortable with their emotions
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: and clarifying questions. I mean, heterosexual couples have a lot
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: to learn from them, right?
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. So.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think increasingly I'm seeing a lot more. And
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: this trope that we carry, right? The woman who goes
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: in and has all these questions and expectations. I think
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: we've demonized it. This is somebody who has clarity. This
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: is somebody who perhaps has a perspective on what she
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: would like her life to look like. Why is that
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: seen as her being needy, clingy, too much? These are
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: often the phrases and words we use around women, right?
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean, with women particularly, I think
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: you're like damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Like you're supposed to only want a long-term monogamous relationship
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: that leads to marriage. And you're supposed to, you know,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: what if you actually just want lots of sex?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: You know, but good girls aren't supposed to want that.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: So you're too, too chalant.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: If you want the long-term relationship and commitment and monogamy
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: and you're like not respectable if that's what you don't want.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: So what are you supposed to want, right? Oh my gosh.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Each time I hear that, it makes me so angry, right?
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: That women are not allowed to have desire. That it's so,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: it's morally policed, right? She's considered loose. It still comes
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: up in sessions and it blows my mind. I'm like,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: but you were there too, right? Why is she being
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: the one who's judged? It's absurd.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: But I actually think patriarchy is as damaging to men.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And to the expectations women are taught they should have
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: from a man. Like, I find it so appalling that
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: a woman who's really successful in her career, who doesn't
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: want marriage, or who's maybe even married a man who
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: makes less money than her, right her family will treat
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the fact that her husband is richer than her as
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: a greater source of shame than pride in her career
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: as a source of joy yeah you know of course
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: which is insane and I think these ideas that men
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: should drive their worth from you know, how much property
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: or assets or money or whatever that they have and
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: how muscular they are and these weird ideas we have
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: about masculinity. I think just as the ideas around what
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: it means to be a good woman impact women, I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: think the ideas of what it means to be a
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: good man impact men and women's expectations of men. And
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: we've got to dismantle all of it. We'd all be
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: better off if we dismantle all of it. What if
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I'm becoming increasingly enamored with the idea that maybe what
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I need is actually a man who looks after the house?
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I would love a man who's nurturing and tender and
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: a good housekeeper and looks after my needs. In a
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: non-monetary way, because my life is so busy on the
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: work front, right?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: But that would mean dismantling so much of generational conditioning, right?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And this is the other thing that I also see,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: you know, where men are concerned. Very often I hear
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: men come into session and say, I don't feel emotionally safe,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: but sex is expected of me. So I should be
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: like coked up on it, right?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: It's not true. Exactly. I mean, we must allow everyone
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: permission to be who they are instead of who they're
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: expected to be.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: And do you think that early on in relationships, couples
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: might also be a little bit sort of brain addled
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: by the by the, you know, the butterflies of a
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: courtship phase? Like, I feel my decision making has definitely
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: been clouded by like, love goggles, orgasm goggles, you just
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: become blind to some glaringly obvious incompatibilities because there's just
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: so much chemistry or you just have like such, you know,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: such a physical intensity or just your judgment is clouded,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: I've been there on all my dates, I think.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Chemistry, and this is where you separate chemistry from compatibility, right?
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Chemistry is wonderful. You can't keep your hands off the other,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: but you can't build a relationship on... on just chemistry, right?
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: You need compatibility and chemistry can fade. If the person
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: doesn't treat you well, they're not kind, they're not respectful.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Chemistry is the first thing that goes out of the window, right?
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: This, have a.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Measured perspective on it, right? When you look at compatibility,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: now that is something you have to have a starting
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: point to find a good enough partner. And I think
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: the current dating apps. I don't know how many people here.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Are on dating apps. How many people are on dating apps?
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I'm so curious to know how that's working out. Um,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: but I think that they're worrisome because it gives you
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: the illusion of choice, right? And we're not putting enough effort.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: It's actually a distractor because we think, yeah, I don't
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: like the way he choose. So I'm going to swap
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: and find somebody else. Right. Um, This compatibility, a great
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: starting point is do you admire this person, right? I'm
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: not talking about all, but admiration is about their qualities.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Can I respect this person? Can I, do I feel safe?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Can I trust them? Those you build, those are the
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: building blocks. When you have that as the architecture, that's
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: a solid foundation. How do we fight, right? How is
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: conflict resolved? When I'm angry, how do I express myself?
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Am I careful about my partner? Am I quick to
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: apologize maybe, even if I shoot my mouth off? All
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: of that tells me. So I'm not dismissing chemistry. I
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: think chemistry is wonderful. Sex is wonderful. If you have
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: that kind of compatibility there. But it can't be the
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: only thing. It's not strong enough to build a foundation
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: for a relationship.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think compatibility alone is enough? Because I don't.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: No.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I think you have to have both.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I don't disagree with that.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: But, you know, and this is something I wonder about.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: This is not something that I perhaps have a perfect
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: answer to yet. What happens when you have great chemistry,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: great sexual compatibility, but you have no understanding, no emotional safety?
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: You need a bit of both, right? And I also
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: do see very often that when you really like somebody
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: and you admire who they are, sexual chemistry is actually
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: something you can also, sexual compatibility is something you can
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: build on. Maybe not the chemistry, but compatibility is something
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: you can build on. When you feel emotionally safe to
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: communicate what you like, what, you know, your vulnerabilities are.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Your aging body, you know, the boobs are sagging, balls
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: are dropping, you know, all of that, right? I've got
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a sponge, hormones are going crazy.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Can I be vulnerable with my partner to share that?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Is there somebody I can build that with? I think
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: you can build sexual compatibility over time.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and to me, when I talk about sexual compatibility,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think it has anything to do with how
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: someone looks. You know, it's an energy. It's like a thing.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Either it's there or it's not there. And like, if
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: it's there, it's very... powerful and it has to do
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: with an emotional for me it's a prerequisite is feeling
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: safe is it enough do you feel like it's enough
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: to build a no I don't think it's enough but
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I think that I think the practical like when you
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: know as a lonely girl who's who thinks like there's
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: no man out there who's going to meet her high
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: standards and then you're like Thinking, OK, what am I
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: comfortable like taking off my list or whatever? And let's
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: be practical about this. So do I admire this person?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Do I respect them? Can we live together? Do we
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: like the same things? And then, you know, you find
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: a great roommate. But are you having enough orgasms? For me,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: like that question has kept me up at night. So
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I think like I want both. I want both and
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: it shouldn't be impossible to find both. And I actually
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: think a willingness between two people to recognize that both
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: things matter and that we can actually work on both things, um,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: can take you a long way.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I love that word, willingness.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: The openness to it. There has to be a willingness.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: On that note, let's play red flag, green flag, or
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: it depends. We're going to throw some scenarios out there,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: and first we let the audience raise what they think
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: it to be, and then you chime in. For it depends,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you can put up both the flags. Okay, a couple
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: that never argues. Hell yes. That is a red flag, right?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Because somebody is not saying what they mean and they're
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: keeping the peace and that is worrisome. So for sure.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: They tell you to stop overreacting when you call them
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: out on something. Well done. Yes, of course.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: No, you need somebody who understands that, who hears you.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: They don't have to agree with you, but they have
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: to make room. They have a close friendship with an ex.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: This is where I would say it depends. It depends
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: on the conversation you've had early on. And not just
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: early on, continually, right? When something bothers you and you
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: feel like your partner's maybe uncomfortably close with their ex,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: you have to make room to talk about it. And
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: your partner has to make room for that. It can't
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: just be a shutdown and say, oh, too bad, that's
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: my ex. No, this is your current relationship, and it's
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: only respectful that you understand what makes your partner uncomfortable, right?
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: So I would say it depends.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: They raise their voice, but apologize afterwards.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: If they do it repetitively, that tells me there's no reflection, right?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: You're doing nothing to change that habit if it bothers
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: your partner.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: One.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Two, raising your voice, what does that mean? Does it
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: make you feel unsafe? Is there a lot of aggression
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: in the room? That's threatening your safety? That's a no-go, right?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: That is not just a rough fight. If you're feeling unsafe,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: please reach out to somebody who can help you through that.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: They expect you to know what they're upset about without
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: telling you.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: I love this audience.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Requires no work. All have been to therapy.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. I mean, who's a psychic? How are you
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: supposed to know? Please communicate. It's ridiculous, the notion that
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: they should know. And this is the trope, the romantic
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: trope of relationships, right? If I found my person, I
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: had to communicate nothing. They will just know me. Rubbish.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Please communicate. Siblings who've grown up in the same house
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: are so different. And you expect someone who's raised differently
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: to know something about you that you yourself sometimes don't know?
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: That's a bit much.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: They want access to your phone password. Not just because
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: their phone died, okay?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends on how far along the relationship this is.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: What is the rules of transparency that you have in
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: your relationship?
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Is it a demand?
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Is it a request?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: And also, where is it coming from?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Is there doubt? Or is this just the rules of
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: your relationship? So, I wouldn't say it's a blanket yes
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: or no.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Alrighty, last one. They admit when they're wrong. Yes, we
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: love that, right?
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Accountability is great. So, but then what do they do
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: about it? Always.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And then, Don't weaponize your incompetence. I love that. Yes.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: On that note, let's talk about how to have a
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: good fight. Some of this stuff came up even in
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the red flag, green flag questions. For me, a raised
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: voice is like deeply disconcerting or any. I'm like I
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: hate being on the receiving end of anger of any kind.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: And I think I suppressed my own anger a long time.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: So much so that in my 20s, I don't get angry.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I'm just the perfect woman who's happy all the time.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I just cry when I'm disappointed. And I feel like
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I've really started to sit with my rage. I've invited
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it to dinner to sit with me because it's telling
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: me something. But I think on the other hand, rage
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: is one of the only emotions men are socialized to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: think of as acceptable to express publicly. So you could
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: be driving and some poor old lady in a car
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: who overtook you or didn't do whatever starts swearing out
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: of the window. I don't know. It's a pretty typical
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: anger management issue where everyone knows someone, right? We all
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: have that uncle who like shout at the waiter or
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: shout at the check-in staff at the airport. For me,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: that's like deeply troubling. It's just really grating to hear,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: to witness anger of that kind where there's no good reason.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Does gender impact how we, how easily we're able to
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: express anger? And when is anger constructive? When is it
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: not quite the right emotion?
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: One, I'm going to make a distinction between anger and rage, right?
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So rage to me is uncontrolled, right? Anger is an
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: expression of hurt, wounding, and deep disappointment. Now, how I
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: express my anger, I'm allowed to be angry, but how
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I express it is on me, right? So, and to
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: think of relationships, every relationship, parent, child, lovers, siblings, you're
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: going to have fights. You're going to have rupture. But
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: how do you repair?
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: How quickly?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: How easily, right? What is the languaging around it?
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: That is key.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: So to me, it's possible to have a good fight.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: You have to know what the architecture of a good
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: fight is. But rage is always worrying, right? Because rage
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: threatens safety in the room. When I think about it,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: for instance, and like you, I think I've thought of
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: myself as someone who doesn't get angry, right? And what
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I realized was that I just didn't, I didn't have
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: an opportunity to get angry. I felt like there was
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: no room for it. I had to constantly accommodate for
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the other person. And I diminished myself in the relationship.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I took myself out of the equation and it was
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: about appeasing the other person, right? What one has learned
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: over time, and this is a lot of the work
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: that I do with clients, and gender does play a
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: role here. I think the number of women that I
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: see That don't express anger. They accommodate. Adjust. The very
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: popular trope.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: He gets angry.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: You let it be. Or she can be a bit irritable.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: You understand. Now someone is constantly understanding.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: And this happens.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: That's okay. That's how relationships move on. And they continue.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: But if you're constantly brushing things under the rug. You
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: have this massive mountain. You're going to trip over it.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And there's going to be dust flying everywhere.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: One day.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So to me, it's how do we move from anger,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: the expression of anger, to having a good fight, right?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And that is a conversation that I think most couples
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: struggle with. I think everybody does, actually.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: So what is the architecture of a good fight, then?
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Respect, kindness, and a very good apology and accountability, right?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: So if you think of it as an I statement, right?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: I'm allowed to be angry and hurt by something you've
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: done and deeply disturbed by it. And I want you
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: to make room for it. So a good fight, if
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: you and I were in a relationship and I did
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: something to hurt you, if you're going to lash out
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: at me, you lose me. Because I'm going to get
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: defensive and I'm going to be critical and I'm going
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: to turn around and.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Say, but what about the time that you did this?
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: But the moment you look at me and you say,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: you know, Em, this didn't work for me. Did you
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: mean to say that because I felt belittled or condescended
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: or spoken down to or ignored? What that does is
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: two things. It gives me benefit of doubt because you
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: didn't come from assumption. And two, I have to take
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: a pause to say, shoot, maybe I did. Maybe I
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: used you as collateral in that moment. Maybe I was
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: in a crowd and I was awkward and I made
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: a joke that I wasn't, that was not cool, right?
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And I have to take that moment to step back
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: and say, I'm really sorry. And this, so a good
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: fight is also about a good apology, right? And a
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: good apology requires me to make an I statement. It
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: can't require a but. It's like, I'm sorry, but you
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: know that doesn't work, right? I'm really sorry.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I did that.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: In that moment, I only thought of myself and I
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: didn't think of you. And for that reason, I'm really sorry, right?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: It's an intentional, very specific apology. And that's very healing
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: because what it does is that in that moment, I
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: chose you over me. And that's very powerful.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And then your behavior has to also indicate that that
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: apology was sincere, correct?
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: Always.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: And we also put that in then, right? And I
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: love that you said that because then what are we
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: going to do the next time this happens, right? You know,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to watch out. The next time it happens,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: just tell me on the spot. I'll make room for it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: But the apology still stands.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I think that for so many people, even though your
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: partner or spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, non-binary friend, they're
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: supposed to be like this, you know, the closest person
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: to you in your life or whatever. But conflict can
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: feel unsafe. Like we don't get these templates for safe conflict.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And conflict can feel so unsafe where it almost seems
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: like the lesser evil is to just tolerate because I'm
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: attached to this person. I don't, you know. And I
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: wonder how more couples can get good at having good
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: faith and safe. Like there's a sense of safety and
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: good faith about even your worst fight where you're, you
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: can take for granted that this is not about who
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: wins and this is not about being right. And neither
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: of us are going to be, you never have to
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: worry about your physical safety or, you know, you're not
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: going to be manipulated. Like there's some bad faith practices
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: that we will never, we are just not going to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: go there.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In a fight, you can either win it or
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: solve it.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And Yalom, this amazing psychotherapist, has this saying that you
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: strike when the iron is cold. And I use that
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: a lot in my therapy sessions because it's about setting
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: up rules and guidelines when things are great. When we fight,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: what should it look like, right? What are some no-go zones?
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: What are some things we will not do? How will
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: we regulate our emotion when things get heated up? And
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: this is also about, you'll notice very often in couples,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: there'll be one person who wants to have the conversation
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: then and there. And there's one person who's like, I
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: need to get out right now. I need a 20
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: minute break. How do you accommodate for both? How do
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you make sense of what their psychological need is at
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that time? And that conversation has to happen when things
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: are not heated up. So you have a safety net.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: You know what the boundary is. You have a playing ground, right?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: And it's also very helpful to understand if your partner
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: is somebody who needs to leave the room and take
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: a breather, Why is that? It's because the nervous system
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: is so flooded. It can seem like a very selfish,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: uncaring act in that moment, but it's not. It's them
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: trying to regulate themselves, but they have to come back
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: in 20 minutes. That promise has to be met. And
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: at the same time, you have to understand that the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: person who wants to have the conversation then and there,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: what is that about? And in both cases, by the way,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: very often it comes from the homes that we grew
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: up in. How did we see fights, right? Was someone
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: slamming doors? Was there a lot of silence? What feels threatening?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: What feels safe? And very few of us have grown
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: up seeing a beautiful model of conflict. If not, we're
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: stumbling our way through. We're all flawed. We're imperfect. But
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: when you understand some of these architectures, you understand and
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you have these conversations early on. Do not have any
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of these conversations.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: In the middle of a fight.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: It's not going to work. Have it as a point
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: of curiosity very early on. And continually, because you're changing
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: as well. Your relationship in the first year to the
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: fifth year to the tenth year is going to look
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: very different. What is important in the first year is
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: not going to be important in the tenth year. So
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: keeping that in mind is key.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: And, you know, we in the beginning hinted at the
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: fact that sometimes, let's say couples therapy or some sort
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: of intervention, the point of it isn't always to save
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the relationship. So how do couples together recognize when something
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: might just be a rough phase or, you know, something
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that's resolvable and when, in fact, maybe it is better
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: to end the relationship?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: You know, when I think of relationships, I think of
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: them as, think of a lot, hanging up a large
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: screen TV, right? If you're the only one holding it up,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: it's going to fall flat.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: It's not going to work, right?
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And it does happen that at different points in your relationship,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: one person will do more of the emotional and physical labor.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Things change, right? You have children, you have aging parents,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: you have job losses, promotions, changing finances. In the rough patch,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: you still have goodwill. You're still on the same team.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: And you understand that over time that the labor evens out.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Even if it's not 50-50 at all points in time,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: it is not going to be 50-50 at all points
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: in time. So you have to think of it as,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: is it a season? Is it the climate? What is it?
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: And can you identify maybe a situational trigger? Maybe it's
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: a rough few months triggered by something very specific. But
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: when it's added on, you'll feel this growing resentment. Think
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: of relationships as, you know, no relationship ends suddenly. It's gradual.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: And then suddenly the penny drops over something so irrelevant.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: But it's been coming for a long time. So for me,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: a good measure is, are you on the same team?
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: So I can be really.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Annoyed at my partner.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: They f * * * me off. But when I
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: step out, I'm like, oh, he likes this donut. I'm
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: going to bring it back. You're able to hold both.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: What are, in your practice, what have been some of
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the most common sort of irreconcilable differences that couples come
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: in with where, you know, the better option is to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: just end the relationship?
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: It's long-term resentment. where one or both are unwilling to
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: take accountability. So you can be, the other person may
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: be responsible for 80% of the issues in the relationship,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: but you have to take responsibility for your 20%, right?
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And when you're unwilling to do that, it's always very tricky.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I think also chronic cheating. That's a really tough one.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Three is when you feel betrayed, not just from cheating,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: but also from family dynamics. When you feel abandoned in
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: the relationship, that's a hard one. You can work through it,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: but then it becomes about the languaging in the relationship.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: The moment I seek contempt in the way you speak
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: to your partner, so there's mockery and there's sarcasm, or
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: there's indifference. I'd rather take a couple that's fighting and shouting.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: It tells me they still have something to fight about
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: and care about, right? And fights are so critical in
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: my relationship. It redefines the rules. But when one person
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: comes in and they're checked out, that's always worrying. There's
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: no coming back from that.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you mentioned a few of the reasons for
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: some of the resentment that can build and then feel
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: difficult to see any path forward from. And I think
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: that we touched upon but didn't go head on with
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: these topics of like sex, money, betrayal. Let's, let's sort
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: of prod there a bit more. I think sexual dissatisfaction
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: or just being on the, on like a different page
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: than your partner in terms of whether it's the frequency
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: or the nature of the sex you're having or just
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: some so many married couples just don't have any sex
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: yes and it can be important to different people to
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: different degrees what's been your experience in terms of like
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: you know are people able to talk about sex in
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: my DMs it seems like even when people are having
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: sex they find it really difficult to talk about it
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: especially honestly when there's a problem so I.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Think we don't have the vocabulary in India as South
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Asians particularly right We do not have the languaging around
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: sex and sexuality. How can I communicate that to my
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: partner when I don't have it for myself? And then
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: it comes loaded with shame, fear, and guilt. Oh my God,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: it's a complete kryptonite for desire. Because if I'm not
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: the good girl.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: How do I ask for sex? So difficult. I have
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: a kink. I have a fetish. I want to fantasize.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I want to try a different position.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: So, so difficult to have any of those conversations, right?
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: So to me, I think if we could build vocabulary
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: around it, and that is a big part of the
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: work that we do in therapy, is to understand where
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: the couple is at. Do they understand desire for themselves?
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: And sometimes I just split the couple up to have
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: this conversation because they're uncomfortable and awkward about it. But
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: I'm always very hopeful when I see a couple laugh, right?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And there's levity and mirth, and they're sort of fumbling
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: their way through this, and they're figuring it out. I
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: think that's always promising. But the moment I see shaming,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: where you look at the other person's libido, high, low,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: wherever it might be, and you make a judgment about it,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: immediately it's unsafe. So much of the work happens separately,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: so much of the vocabulary building happens separately. I wish
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: there was, you do so much of the work around it,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: which I love, which is to build the vocabulary around it.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: We don't have it.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: So how can I communicate something that I don't have
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: in my toolkit?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And what about money? I want to get to these
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: audience questions in the bowl ASAP. But okay, quickly, let's
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: talk also about how people's expectations around shared finances can
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes also just be something you address too late.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. Money is not just about money. Money is symbolic
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: about so many things. The home that you grew up in.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: How was money spoken about? How was it saved? Equal
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: is not always fair, right? How are you splitting it up?
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Is it proportional to your salaries?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Whose labor?
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Invisible labor. All of those things come into consideration. Job loss, promotions,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: pay hike. You have to keep having these conversations. You know,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: we've romanticized money as well. It's almost icky. It's almost
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: like a little gross to talk about money.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: It's not.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Have these practical conversations.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: And this is the thing.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I think when I look at dating in South Asia,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: we've just barely understood dating.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: We weren't allowed, right? It was just set up for us. Exactly.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: And we got these dating apps. So to me, the
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: middle ground is great. Use all the arranged marriage questions. Family, finances, job, perspectives.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: And take the romance of dating.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: But don't only date your same caste, same religion. Come on, man.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Reject all of that. Just ask the question.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Take the curiosity in. Curiosity is such a great space.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: And using curiosity continuously. And I see this in long-term relationships.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: You stop being curious about your partner. You have an
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: assumption about who they were 10 years ago.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: They've changed.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: You've changed. And you've made no accommodation. You've not updated the,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: you know, iOS. You're working off an old iOS. It
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't work.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Alrighty. Thank you, Anne. I could keep going, but I
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: do want to also give audience questions a chance because
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: everyone had the opportunity to get a question answered by
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: a renowned couples therapist. So we'll take some from the
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: bowl to start with. But, you know, think of some
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: questions if you didn't put yours in the bowl and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: maybe a few lucky in-person questions. questioners will be asked
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: questions gee some kids a question you want to okay
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: you want to do a question instead.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: How much emotional awareness in relationships is too much i'll
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: give you a background yeah because um this current session
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: we have seen a lot of well-informed questions which tells
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: us that people have been learning a lot about mental
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: health And that kind of also is what's happening in
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: my life. And lately, it feels like I'm diagnosing my
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: relationship constantly. And I just want to know how much
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: awareness is too much awareness.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that question. It's actually, yeah. There is
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: such a thing as too much awareness. And I am
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: guilty of that as well. Because sometimes what happens is
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: when we bring everything under the microscope, we stop enjoying
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the relationship, we stop living it, right? We're all a
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: bit like we're mad monkeys, right? And the moment I
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: start labeling, I throw out curiosity. And curiosity is key.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Why did my partner do what they did? And can
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I just take their answer at face value? And I
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: don't need to solve every fight. Not every fight has
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: to be an I statement, I understand. And the very
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: classical therapeutic trope, you know, I'm mocking it right now,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: but you know what I mean, right? It's not helpful
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: because sometimes you can.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Be deeply annoyed at your partner and.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Be like, you are a person right now. And I
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: don't really like you right now. Do I love you broadly?
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Not right now either.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: That's okay, right? So what we make room for is
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: for the flaws. Because if I'm trying to bring everything
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: under the microscope, if we bring ourselves under the microscope,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: oh my, I don't want to be under one. Gosh,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: you're going to see all my flaws.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: And that's, I don't want that. I would like a
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: little bit.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Of leeway and I want someone to cut me some slack.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: So I feel like it, it takes the joy out
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: of sometimes being irrational.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Now, moving on to another question real quick from the bowl.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Why is emotional intimacy often harder to navigate than physical intimacy?
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Because it requires vulnerability. You have to be emotionally naked
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: in front of the other person. You have to be
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: seen as wanting and having needs. And you have to
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: show your chaos and your mess.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: That's terrifying.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: You're not perfect. We're all flawed. We're all a bit crazy.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And vulnerability requires us to show up with all of
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: that self, right? And that's much tougher because I will
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: have to share my fear, my wounding, and my deep desire,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and the fact that I want to be seen, and
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I want to be seen in a very specific way.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I can tear up thinking about it, right?
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: My gosh, I quake in my shoes even after all
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: these years at the thought of it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: To be truly seen. Yes. To be seen once and all, yeah.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: But isn't it so joyful also when you feel truly seen?
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: That is my favorite feeling in the world.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: There's nothing more powerful. I think friendships actually are a
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: great parameter. Think of your oldest friend. Think of your
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: dearest and safest space, right? That is a good rule
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: to have. If your potential partner has the capacity to
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: make you feel like that, This is a person that's
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: a good enough person to start building something with.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, one more question from the bowl. Then we take
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: a few more questions. I wish I could do all
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: of the questions. But okay, is it normal for live-in
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: partners to lose sexual desire for each other?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, not just live-in. Any kind of long-term relationship, I
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: would assume. Because desire needs mystery. And it's counterintuitive, right?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: That the more I know somebody, the less mysterious they are.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: but this is again where compatibility comes in right if
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: there's a safe space to have conversation and you know
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: what you want and your desires have changed and you're
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: trying to approach things with curiosity because there's so many
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: things about your partner you may not know why won't
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: you approach something you've seen something you want to check
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: someone out together you want to watch porn together um
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: do you feel safe enough to talk about it so
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: one to answer the first part yes it's very normal
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Every relationship waxes and wanes where desire is concerned. But
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: that is not to say that it can't be spruce
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: back up. It just looks different.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: And also sometimes the more safe you.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Feel, desire can increase because you have, this is a
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: great safety net, right? The boundary walls are so beautifully
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: built that you can experiment. You can do things together.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I think also like just putting in an effort. Sometimes
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: you feel so safe that you stop putting in an effort.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: That's happened to me. I just would never dress up
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: anymore in my sweatpants because it's so comfy. But it
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: is nice to dress up or go on a date
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: or go on a holiday or do something new together.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And I think that no matter how long you've been together,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: like scheduling this stuff in, schedule a date night, schedule sex.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: And also continually, you have to be able to turn
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: yourself on. And I don't mean sexually, even physically, right?
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: When you put lipstick or you put perfume or you
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: put on a really nice shirt, do you feel desirous
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: to yourself? Because if you don't, It's going to be
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: much harder to expect that your partner is going to
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: feel a way about you.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Or that you're going to be like in the mood. Yes,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: at all, right? Okay, questions from the audience. I see
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of hands.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: So my question is, in arranged marriage setup, you know,
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: it's like, so we see communities which are very orthodox
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: and it's very difficult to get out of a marriage,
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: which is very different from separating from a partner in
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: a relationship.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: So what is.
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: Your opinion about sexual incompatibility between two people who are
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: married to take divorce? Is this a valid ground? Because
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: our legal system definitely doesn't allow that. I mean, amongst
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: many things, grounds for which one can file a divorce,
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: seek divorce, this isn't one of them. What is your
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: opinion about that? So is exiting a marriage valid? if
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: you're not sexually compatible with your married partner.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Do you want to take that? I think that the
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: legal system does recognize divorce by mutual consent. So as
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: long as you can get your partner to agree. I
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: think that sexual compatibility, if there's no effort being made
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: from the other side to acknowledge or address whatever issue
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: you may have, then I mean, I'm all for amicable divorces.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think divorces have to be acrimonious or a
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: sign of failure. It's unfortunate that society makes it seem
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: that way, but what if, and especially in arranged marriage
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: circumstances where you didn't even choose, you've discovered yourselves after
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: committing that you're going to spend your whole life together,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: shouldn't we get that chance? Like, hey, you know, we tried,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: but it didn't work. But, I mean, I'm not the therapist,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: so what would you say? My opinion would be that if.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: If there is space for it and that is the
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: grounds for the relationship collapsing for that couple, my opinion
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: would be, please go ahead. If you're so deeply unhappy
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: and that feels irreconcilable, then yes, right? But very often
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: in arranged marriages in this country or in South Asia,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: you don't get that opportunity. So my personal opinion is different, right?
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: What is possible.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: That's true. It doesn't happen. Sometimes divorce is not an
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: option for people. I think it's always an option. But
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: you might not have financial security anymore. Or you might
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: disappoint your parents and in-laws so irrevocably that you lose
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: your inheritance. Can you deal with those consequences? And if not,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I guess, what's the best you can do? Talk about it.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Explore your own pleasure yourself. Go to a therapist. Go
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: to a therapist.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: All of those things, right? If you can find, again...
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: vocabulary and languaging, if there is space. It's not just
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: about sexual compatibility. Is there no communication around it? Is
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: the other person shutting down? Are they defensive?
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, a lot of people.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Are doomed to, not a lot, I would not want
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: to imagine a lot, but many people are doomed to unhappy,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: sexless marriages. It is a thing. It's the truth. There
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: is no going around it.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish that families would also put less pressure
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: on people, both to get married and to stay married,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: because you shouldn't have to choose between your parents' love
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: and your happiness.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: They're so dismissive because they're like, sex is not important, right?
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Or even if it's violence, how often I hear somebody say,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: you know, if we were to pick every fight and,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: you know, talk about it, then no marriage would last.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: But just because your parents and your grandparents did it
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean you have to put up with it.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: And I think we should break cycles. You've got to
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: break cycles. Just because your parents said something doesn't mean
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: you've got to do it. Newsflash. And it's painful. But
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: if you can be that change, your kid will never
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: have to worry about that same situation. It's really powerful
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to break a cycle. Sorry to be rushing, but I
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: want to get as many questions in as we can.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Hi.
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: So I'll keep it short. We talked about rage and anger.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: I want to know a little bit about, have you
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: been seeing an increase in the amount of angry women?
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: And the reason I ask that is because, of course,
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: we've tackled rage and we talked about the patriarchal side
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: of it and how men kind of feel that rage
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: and it can be unsafe. But there's also, I mean,
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: as someone who feels this a lot myself, the kind
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: of dissonance between coexisting with a man and And then
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: at the same time, understanding what patriarchy is doing and
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: dealing with the day in and day out, the anger
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: that a woman can feel can also actually be quite potent.
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: And I want to know how, have you been seeing
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: an increase in this? And have you been seeing it
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: affect relationships at any level?
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, I see so many women expressing anger more freely
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: in therapy in the last five years than I have
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: in the decade before that, right? And in some ways,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: the pendulum has to swing the other way to find
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: middle ground. And unfortunately, society and men and partners will
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: have to make space for it. I think it's best
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: tolerated because very often when I do individual work, I
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: invite the partner in or a sibling in or a
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: parent in, right, for a couple of sessions, depending on
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: how safe it feels for my client. to understand how
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: they can make room and tolerate this anger. Do they
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: understand what this anger is about? It's not necessarily about,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: because partners will come in and sing.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: But I didn't do it. Why is she so angry
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: with me? I'm not the one doing any of this.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: This, right? When someone steps out of the house, especially
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: women in this country, and they go out and someone
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: has brushed past against them, they've made a lewd comment, right?
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: they've groped them or they've just looked at them, you know,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: this and let's make them uncomfortable. Somewhere it sinks in
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: your body. It makes you really uncomfortable and it boils up, right?
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: And by the time you come back home, your partner
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: can be like, hey, you didn't pay the bill for that.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you pay the.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: And you're seething, right?
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: It happens.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: For me, a lot of the work has to do
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: and I invite all couples to have this conversation. Have a...
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Have a check-in to ask your partner what's happening to
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: their political, social landscape and emotional landscape through the week.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Things have changed. The partner you said bye to in
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: the morning is not the partner who's come back home
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: because so much has happened for them, right? So making
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: room for that anger because when you create the vessel
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: for it, it's very healing for your partner, right? So yeah,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: that's my answer for you.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. You've been such a wonderful audience
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and thank you for having this conversation with us today.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: And thank you for tuning in to Love Matters. Love
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Matters is produced by the Indian Express and DW, Germany's
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: international broadcaster. We would love to hear from you. Do
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: leave a comment or you can write into us at lovemattersatdw.com.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I'm Lisa Mangalas and I believe love matters.