Latest / Love Conquers Fear / #42: Alien Intelligence: The Next Wave of AI and the Big Risks We Can’t Ignore — Manoj Saxena

Transcript

#42: Alien Intelligence: The Next Wave of AI and the Big Risks We Can’t Ignore — Manoj Saxena · Love Conquers Fear

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  I have stopped calling AI artificial intelligence as of
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  six months ago. I call it alien intelligence
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  because there is a lot of emergent behaviors that we are
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  finding in this that we're not programmed in, that we can't
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  explain. What I see as a third vector is
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  a new society, which includes humans coexisting with this
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  alien intelligence. And it's going to create over
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  the next 100 years, an entire new form of civilization.
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  You know, that's the exciting part.
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  The fearful part is we don't know how to control it.
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  We are no longer the apex intelligence.
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  It's like our relationship with guerrillas, humans for the apex
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  intelligence and gorillas are sort of the next level down.
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  If you wanted to, we can buy them off in two weeks, but we
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  choose not to. AI is going to take that role
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  where they are the apex intelligence.
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  Will we be there, gorillas? And what is that relationship?
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  Welcome back everybody to the Love Conquer Sphere podcast.
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  I'm going to keep this intro short.
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  You hopefully you really loved yesterday's episode that I
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  recorded with Paige Britt. That's episode #40 I just wanted
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  to give a shout out to this documentary that I recently saw
• 1:04
  on Netflix that really moved me. It's about Ram Dass, who was a
• 1:09
  very famous spiritual teacher, psychonaut, meditator.
• 1:15
  He eventually graduated from psychedelics into just doing
• 1:19
  meditation. And he was able to see that
• 1:22
  unification of all things and that our reality is deeply
• 1:25
  rooted in love and light. And it's at the end of his life
• 1:29
  when he is in his home in Maui. And it's called going home.
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  And you can get on Netflix. It is only 31 minutes long, but
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  it packs a really beautiful, heartfelt punch.
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  And so I really recommend watching that.
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  You know, I'm not as familiar with his work.
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  I've never read a book by Ron Das, even though I read over 55
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  books last year. But he's quoted in a lot of the
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  books that that I've read and his talks on YouTube are just
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  really amazing and divine. And so anyways, highly recommend
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  that today I'm really happy to have a good friend on and we're
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  going to dive into all types of topics, including AI safety.
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  And this is really a good week for that given Dario Modi's
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  essay that came out on the adolescence of technology, which
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  is a follow up to his October 2024 essay, Machines of Loving
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  Grace, which I've written extensively about.
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  I'll include a link on that. I wrote wrote that I think a
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  week after that essay came out, but this week with the A lessons
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  of technology, it's really foundational week for that piece
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  to come out because it very much details the risk of AI and he
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  wanted to be very clear on that with everybody.
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  And since October of 2024, wow, has Anthropic grown in
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  prominence. They're becoming like the
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  Microsoft of AI, where I think ChatGPT really is on a path to
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  become the Google of AI. That's that's at least their
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  aspirations. And both companies are growing
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  so, so quick from a revenue perspective, from a capitalist,
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  capitalist perspective, in terms of the money going in and from
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  the valuation perspective, we really haven't seen hardly
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  anything like this in in human history.
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  So I'm happy to welcome Manoj Saxena.
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  Yeah. Thanks, Brett.
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  Thanks for having me. Manoj, it's so good to have you.
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  I knew this was destined to happen at some point.
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  And then very Celestine prophecy like we were brought together on
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  the plane on the way to Ted AI last year.
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  And I was surprised to learn and happy to learn that you were
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  speaking there and you really enjoyed seeing you talk there
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  and talk about this very important topic of AI safety.
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  And, you know, in the in the no coincidences department.
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  You know, here we are on the week that Dario's come out with
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  this really foundational essay. Yeah.
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  Why don't we start with with with just a bit of background on
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  your career, because you're you're one of the best
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  entrepreneurs and Austin and technology and and I I want
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  people to know a bit about your background and what you're doing
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  now with trust wise before we really dive into this topic of
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  Dario's essay and dive deep on AI safety and can AI ever become
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  conscious and so many other topics that that I know we want
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  to get into. Yeah, again, first of all,
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  thanks for having me. And it is incredible that you're
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  doing this. In many ways, it's not
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  surprising. I love the title.
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  I've told you so many times, love conquerors, you know, fear.
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  I think in terms of my background, just, you know, as
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  you can tell, I was born and raised in India, had have had a
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  blessed life and moved here for my education.
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  I went to Michigan State. That's the best I could have
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  heard back then without taking money from my parents.
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  And after that, after a corporate career at 3:00 AM,
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  I've had the good fortune of being able to build and sell
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  three companies and one of which was bought by BM and IBM board
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  gave me the privilege of running IBM Watson.
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  So 10 years ago, that was the sort of the open AI of its time.
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  That was a big deal was the IT was The Big Bang of AI, if you
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  may had its own, you know, trajectory, but that was the
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  most famous. Watson moment was beating Gary
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  Kasparov in chess. Yeah, exactly.
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  And that actually, you know, and you talk about, so I'm as red,
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  white and blue as they come. I mean, only in America is a
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  story like mine possible from India being told by IBM that,
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  you know, here are the crown jewels of IBM, we expect you to
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  go build a business. So I did that for over three
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  years, got into a few 100 million in revenues.
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  Then I left to create a little venture fund, and I was teaching
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  responsible AI at University of Texas Austin for business and
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  not from a technology perspective, and also at
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  Cambridge in the UK when ChatGPT got launched.
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  So I realized how exponentially fast the speed at which this
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  space has evolved. And what I saw was this
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  obsession with model scaling and model intelligence.
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  It's almost like nuclear power was discovered and everyone's
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  building bigger and bigger nuclear cores, but no one's
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  thinking of putting lids on these systems.
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  So I realized that this whole space around controlling and
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  aligning these systems so that they behave based on our
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  intentions and our goal is going to be an important thing.
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  And you know, my former mentor, the CEO of IBM, she used to say
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  if it's important enough, you have to do it yourself.
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  So I decided to put the jersey back on and I'm on my fifth
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  start up now trust wise. And we are building this control
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  back plane for AAI systems. I call it the HR department of
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  AI. So AI start showing up as
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  digital workers, Where is your hour department?
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  How do you drug test an AI? How do you get an employee
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  handbook so it behaves well? Yeah.
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  How do you do a performance analysis?
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  How do you have a kill switch on it?
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  So we sort of build this new type of infrastructure that lets
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  AI be safe, compliant, and efficient and be beneficial to
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  humanity. Yeah.
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  And and what do you call that? AI safety or just AI governance?
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  Or both? Yeah.
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  So I, I look at it as AI control, runtime control.
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  Safety is 1 aspect. So we look at control as 3
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  facets to it. Is it safe?
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  Is it compliant to both your internal policies and external
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  regulations? And is it efficient in terms of
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  cost and carbon and energy usage?
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  All right, so controlling the runtime behavior so that it is
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  safe, compliant and efficient is sort of how I define this new
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  category of software. What do you see are the biggest
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  risk with AI safety at this point?
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  I mean, you spoke about them at Ted AI and there was a term you
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  used that I can't actually remember, but it was, I tried to
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  research it online and there's no transcripts of that Ted AI.
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  Talks, yeah. But you use this pretty
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  inflammatory term I, I guess I would say, or like it really,
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  you know, spiked the adrenaline. Yeah.
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  No, I think the, the, the, the challenge with these systems is
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  we're still learning what they are, right?
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  And they have these capabilities and these emergent behaviors
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  that we ourselves don't know how or why they're manifesting,
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  right. And so I like to say that people
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  think they're launching squirrels, but they're launching
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  chuckies into the enterprise with a knife in one hand and a
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  credit card in the other. Hand.
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  That's right, it was Chucky. Chucky.
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  Is the thing never. Seen the Chucky movie but I know
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  what it's about. Exactly.
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  So, so the whole concept is, you know on the safety side, we're
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  in the middle of stage two of three of what's going on.
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  So the first stage was around foundation models and building
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  model intelligence. The second stage we are now is
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  around agentic AI and giving that model a layer of action on
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  it. Tools can get into browsers and
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  applications and all. What's coming after this is
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  recursive learning where many of these agents will start now
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  working together and improve themselves.
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  And as you move from model intelligence to agentic
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  workflows to self improving systems, the value goes up as
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  well as the lack of control goes up.
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  So now you're going to have systems that will be running
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  today. I mean, Dario's Claude runs for
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  8 hours non-stop, right? By the end of this year, it will
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  be running for 40 hours non-stop.
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  And by next year, probably 100 years.
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  So every seven months, the autonomy of these systems is
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  doubling, right? And what we are looking at is
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  that when you give these systems intelligence, you give it tools
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  and you give it autonomy and it is making up its own goals and
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  you have no input into that goals is like launching A
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  supercar into a crowd with no steering wheel or brakes on it.
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  And that's where the real challenge is, is how do you make
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  sure that these systems that you're designing align and are
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  controllable to the human objectives and human goals.
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  How do you think about it for these companies because they
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  they've raised so much money and I'm talking about the AI
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  frontier model companies that they should have a big incentive
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  on AI safety because one like really devastating case study at
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  some huge customer like let's say that Enthropic, I'm just
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  making this up. They might actually work with
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  them because they work with so many people.
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  They seem to be running away with it in business.
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  Let's just say they work with BMW or something and you know,
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  one of these, a Gentek AI, the agents you know that they built
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  goes totally haywire and like causes some real problems at
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  BMW. It's going to happen, Yeah.
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  By the way, I mean, I call those the miniature nobles of AI.
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  Those are coming. And I think part of the issue
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  that I see with how the tech industry has shaped it is there
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  has been an excessive focus bread on intelligence and not
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  enough on outcomes. So there's been this obsession
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  in Silicon Valley particularly about bigger and bigger trillion
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  parameter models. And then there is this obsession
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  on AGI as this general purpose AGI that knows as much about
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  plumbing as it does about portiatry.
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  I don't see a use case for something like that.
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  What you need is verticalized AGI in very tight domain that
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  follows industry regulatory and corporate requirements, right?
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  So I think the part I see this industry moving to, it's like
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  the eyeballs with the Internet in the early days of the
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  obsession about eyeballs. I think where we need to see
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  this industry evolving to is outcomes.
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  So now that you've got the giant engine, you can build all kinds
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  of vehicles with it and spaceships with it.
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  There is an opportunity to put a steering wheel and brakes and
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  you know, emission control systems and make a car or a
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  scooter or a truck out of it, right?
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  That's that next level of business opportunity that I
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  think is going to get unlocked hopefully by the likes of
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  Anthropic and Open AI. But I think there is an entire
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  new class of multi billion dollar companies that are going
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  to come up. For sure.
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  Many of them will be less than 10 people, right?
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  There will be 10 humans and 100 agents or maybe 1000 agents
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  working together. And I think that's the exciting
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  next wave that I'm really looking forward to that, that
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  that opportunity for, you know, there'll be more millionaires
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  created in the next 10 years than they were in the last 100.
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  Yeah. And of that, I have no doubt
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  there's this world of opportunity and abundance that
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  we're getting into. So I'm long from that
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  perspective. But there is also going to be a
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  lot of off policy behaviors and emerging behaviors.
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  And unfortunately, you know, AI crashes, if you may, that we're
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  going to see. Yeah, yeah.
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  You know, in episode 21 of the podcast with Jeremiah Owen, who
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  was closing keynote for Ted AI that, that that first day, Yeah,
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  he, he showed a chart, you know, at, at Ted AI that showed that
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  AI native companies in San Francisco.
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  I think, I think the memory is right with either 2.2 million or
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  2.4 million per employee compared to traditional SAS,
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  which I think was around 240K and then and then kind of top
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  tier SAS, which is around 450K per employee.
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  And that's, I mean, that's like, you know, capitalism and then
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  innovator's dilemma, which is, you know, fantastic read, you
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  know, capitalism is this forcing function for you to hop onto a
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  new technological curve for a new level of efficiency.
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  And we've never seen anything like that efficiency well.
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  This is order of magnitude bigger than the Internet.
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  I mean, you and I have had, I mean, you build great companies
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  and have had such a a great career.
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  We, we are one of the fortunate ones.
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  Yeah. We're seeing 2 exponential
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  chips. We saw the Internet.
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  Now we're seeing this. Yeah.
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  And this is way bigger than the Internet.
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  Yeah. And what I'm seeing in terms of
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  AI, everything it touches everything.
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  It's gonna be like electricity. Yeah, right.
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  It's gonna be all around us. Yeah, by the way, this is this
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  is a stat I've been quoting recently.
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  Do you know how long it's been that Homo sapiens have had
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  electricity? You know, it's a good question
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  probably. .1% of our evolutionary time.
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  No kidding. So for 99.9% of our existence on
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  this planet, we have not had electricity.
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  Now you and I are in the age group where, you know, we're
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  seeing the birth of an exponential rise of AI, quantum
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  computing, robotics, brain, computer interfaces.
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  You know, we saw, we saw the Internet.
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  We remember life pre Internet. Pre Internet.
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  Remember life pre mobile Yeah, but our kids this is just like
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  going to be. They are the natives in this.
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  So I mean, Speaking of that, right, In terms of pre and post,
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  I think this electricity, this AI is electricity is going to
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  transform us as a species, right?
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  For sure. Eight years ago when I was
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  running Watson, I gave a Ted talk where I talked about the
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  end of Homo sapiens in the beginning of Homo digitalis,
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  right? So AI is everyone's Iron Man
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  Jarvis suit, if you may, that's going to fundamentally transform
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  us. And I don't know if you have
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  read Max Tegmark's book Life 3 Point OI.
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  Haven't but many friends, including you have recommended
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  it. I should I should read it?
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  When as a species, I think we are probably one of the last
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  couple of generations who will be technically called Homo
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  sapiens, right? And I think from here on, with
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  exoskeletons and all the things you were talking about, Quantum
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  and others is going to dramatically change what it
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  means to be human and what it means to be spiritual in this
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  world of machines and humans. There's a couple of things to
• 16:02
  unpack there. One is, I've, I've made this
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  point many times before, but I'm already an augmented human being
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  and I'm not just talking about the mobile phone in my pocket or
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  the computers I use. I'm talking about my contact
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  lenses. I'm -6.5 in this side.
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  I'm -6 in this side. You know, you put me several 100
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  years ago. I don't know, you know, probably
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  been a scribe and like been looking super closely at paper
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  or something and I don't know. And so, you know, I'm already
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  augmented. But then this, this, you know,
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  the kind of the race Ray Kurzweilian like we're going to
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  merge with machines makes people very uncomfortable because we're
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  worried that we're going to lose something fundamental about our
• 16:46
  humanity and the process and, and the beauty of just, you
• 16:50
  know, the intricacy of our brains.
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  You know, the most efficient computing device we know.
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  I think it's running on 20 watts right now in total, like a baby
• 16:58
  when they're born. You know, we covered this in
• 17:00
  episode 11 with Byron Reese, I think has 40 total watts that
• 17:05
  run its body, and twenty of those are its brain.
• 17:08
  So it's pretty much like a brain and a body, you know, running
• 17:11
  and and and it's consumes a lot of the calories too, but it's so
• 17:16
  it's it's so computationally complex and that's what nature
• 17:21
  created. And so are we just going to be
• 17:25
  this capitalistic driven, you know, species that, you know,
• 17:31
  have that Gattaca future where it's like we've got to upgrade
• 17:34
  ourselves just to be competitive or the other vector that I think
• 17:39
  about a lot is will AI and and it can be Anne too.
• 17:45
  Will AI allow us to discover what makes us the most human, be
• 17:52
  able to decode our reality through things like brain
• 17:56
  computer interfaces and in the lattice, you know, gave you my
• 17:59
  science fiction novella today, which covers the years 2030
• 18:03
  through 2085. The protagonist is Sky Dock
• 18:07
  Alexander Bliss, who says let's hiccup, you know, psychonauts
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  and you know the Dalai Lama and the spiritual masters and you
• 18:15
  know, deep, deep meditation masters to bring computer
• 18:19
  interfaces and look at the commonality and they find the
• 18:22
  connective tissue that binds us all.
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  I think that theory, by the way, I am firmly in the camp of the
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  and and I think also there is the third dimension to it.
• 18:30
  So I think AI is going to transform us physically in terms
• 18:34
  of exoskeletons and a lot of the like you said, there are contact
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  lenses and nanobots in our bodies completely.
• 18:40
  If you live for another 10 years, you're going to live for
• 18:42
  another 15 years at the end of it.
• 18:44
  So the whole how human lifespans are going to change, right?
• 18:47
  So physically it's going to transform us.
• 18:49
  I think it's going to make us more human.
• 18:52
  AII think interestingly enough, I've come to the conclusion will
• 18:56
  make us more human because these tools, I mean, I'm a huge fan of
• 19:00
  jazz. So if you look at jazz and go
• 19:02
  back into 70s, there was, you know, there was this invention
• 19:05
  of synthesizer which transformed jazz musician.
• 19:10
  Because now I don't have to wait for six people.
• 19:12
  I can synthesize music on this electronic keyboard and I can
• 19:15
  produce a lot more music. And I look at AI as an
• 19:19
  electronic synthesizer for my mind and my creativity and my
• 19:22
  spirituality. So I do think that AI as a tool
• 19:26
  is going to make us more human. That's the second dimension.
• 19:29
  I think there is 1/3 dimension, which is probably the most
• 19:31
  exciting one, which is the unknown, unknown territory where
• 19:34
  we're going to actually get synthesized with the digital
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  being. I have stopped calling AI
• 19:40
  artificial intelligence as of six months ago.
• 19:42
  I call it alien intelligence, right?
• 19:44
  Because there is a lot of emergent behaviors that we are
• 19:47
  finding in there that we're not programmed in that we can't
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  explain. And when you what I see as a
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  third vector is a new society which includes humans coexisting
• 19:58
  with this alien intelligence, with their amazing capabilities.
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  And it's going to create over the next 100 years, an entire
• 20:05
  new form of civilization. And you know, that's the
• 20:09
  exciting part. The the fearful part is we don't
• 20:12
  know how to control it, right? We are no longer the apex
• 20:15
  intelligence, right? I mean, so far, it's like our
• 20:19
  relationship with gorillas. As someone said today, humans
• 20:23
  are the apex intelligence and gorillas are sort of the next
• 20:25
  level down. If you wanted to, we can buy
• 20:27
  them off in two weeks, but we choose not to.
• 20:29
  All right now, AI is going to take the role where they are,
• 20:33
  the APICS intelligence. Will we be their gorillas?
• 20:37
  And what is that relationship? I think those are the kinds of
• 20:39
  thoughts around how do you put control systems into these, How
• 20:43
  do you put alignment systems into this so it creates a better
• 20:47
  future for all. That sort of work keeps me up at
• 20:50
  night as to how do you align them and how do you really put
• 20:53
  them to work for, you know, the abundance that it can create.
• 20:57
  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's such a, it's such
• 20:59
  an interesting time. I mean, you know, the collective
• 21:02
  human psyche as a collective, we have some of these dystopian
• 21:09
  tendencies from, you know, movies like the Terminator and
• 21:13
  the Matrix and stories like Golem and Prague.
• 21:16
  And I'm, I'm a Jewish guy. Like that's a, that's a story
• 21:19
  deep in our collective psyche. And these stories are, are
• 21:23
  bound. I mean, they've been around for
• 21:25
  for a long time. That machine will ultimately
• 21:28
  create a machine that destroys us.
• 21:33
  The the the paradox is that we also will have the ability to
• 21:41
  manifest abundance for everyone on the planet much more.
• 21:47
  Well, I I don't know if it would be possible honestly without AI
• 21:51
  because we need to have such a material science breakthrough.
• 21:55
  Just take one example, you know, one of the chapters in my book
• 21:58
  that's coming out, Love Conquers fear with the subtitle Humanity,
• 22:01
  AI and nature Abundance for all is on energy.
• 22:03
  And just 18 seconds of the sun's rays, if we could capture them
• 22:09
  through material science breakthrough would power the
• 22:13
  world's energy needs for over a year.
• 22:15
  And it's like, God put the big fusion, you know, light bulb in
• 22:19
  the sky to be like just figure out how to plug into it.
• 22:22
  It's. Right there in front of you.
• 22:24
  I think all the big problems, climate change, energy, I mean,
• 22:27
  a lot of these things, I mean, those are the fighting things,
• 22:30
  right? Absolutely, and we've already
• 22:32
  created abundance that would be unimaginable 102 hundred years
• 22:37
  ago, like we are living in the best time 100%.
• 22:41
  But you know, really the whole, the whole point of love conquers
• 22:44
  fear this podcast, the book is to help humanity have this heart
• 22:49
  shift so that we don't destroy ourselves on that path.
• 22:53
  And we, if we allow love to conquer fear, which is in all
• 22:57
  the spiritual texts, they all, they all unite with that common
• 23:00
  root, then we will create heaven on earth.
• 23:03
  Absolutely. And I think that's the the
• 23:05
  mechanism by which we get there is sort of the unknown, the
• 23:08
  mechanism by which we understand this new entity that has been
• 23:12
  created. We the mechanism by which the
• 23:15
  abundance that gets created gets distributed.
• 23:18
  So is it going to be that the tech Bros are going to be
• 23:21
  running the government's going forward?
• 23:23
  Is it going to be that the abundance goes only to the top
• 23:25
  five companies like we're seeing in the stock market and it
• 23:28
  doesn't get distributed to the rest of the world?
• 23:30
  So I do know, just like with you that there is going to be this
• 23:34
  world of massive abundance we're going to get into.
• 23:36
  The question remains, will that get distributed evenly or at
• 23:40
  least somewhat evenly or will that get concentrated in the
• 23:43
  hands of a few? Yeah, and that's to be seen.
• 23:46
  And that's where I think getting active, getting the word out
• 23:49
  there, getting to design systems that enable opportunity for all,
• 23:54
  I think is critical. Yeah.
• 23:55
  And it's it is good to see, you know, adults in the room like,
• 23:59
  like Dario publish as I like that, Yeah.
• 24:03
  I think being honest about it, I think humility and excitement
• 24:08
  can go exist in this world. I think I was telling someone,
• 24:12
  how do you feel about all this AI?
• 24:13
  I said in the morning when I wake up, when I brush, 1/2 of my
• 24:16
  face is super excited about what we're getting into.
• 24:19
  The other half of my face when I brush, I'm like, Oh my God, look
• 24:21
  at all the issues that we don't know yet.
• 24:24
  And I think acknowledging that we don't know yet how to handle
• 24:28
  some of these things without getting too paranoid about it,
• 24:31
  but getting forceful and focused about it.
• 24:33
  Yes. And that's what I appreciate,
• 24:34
  what Dario and the papers that he's written is doing right.
• 24:38
  And also with Geoffrey Hinton and and there's so many other
• 24:40
  luminaries. Yeah, playing the, you know,
• 24:43
  crystal ball futurist. You know, I'll put you in that
• 24:47
  position because you and I, I'm sure of all I know I grew up
• 24:51
  reading a lot of science fiction.
• 24:52
  I'm sure you grew up reading a lot of science fiction.
• 24:54
  Every successful technology entrepreneur I know typically
• 24:57
  did. How do you see it playing out?
• 25:01
  And what's your probability that we make it to this age of
• 25:04
  abundance of for all? Well, I think so.
• 25:07
  I'm long on humanity I, I do. So they have this thing called
• 25:10
  the P doom, right? So everyone's coming with this P
• 25:12
  doom number to the probability of human I, I don't know if
• 25:16
  that's quite the number of the thing to focus on.
• 25:18
  What I do see is that this is a whole new frontier that's going
• 25:23
  to change us not just as a society, but as a species.
• 25:27
  So if you take a 50 plus year view of it, I'm, I'm very
• 25:30
  bullish on it. The next 10 to 15 years, not so
• 25:34
  much. I think unfortunately, we are
• 25:37
  too fragmented as a species right now, hurling right into
• 25:42
  this AI stuff from a place of fear, not from a place of love,
• 25:47
  not from a place of how do we make this a benevolent and
• 25:51
  beneficial technology? Because the driver right now is
• 25:54
  if I don't do that, China will get there.
• 25:56
  And we are throwing, you know, all the caution to the wind.
• 25:59
  It's almost like, you know, we've said jump out of the plane
• 26:02
  and stitch your own parachute as you're falling to the ground.
• 26:05
  And there is no fabric that enables you to think through
• 26:08
  what are we doing here? So I think the next 10 to 20
• 26:11
  years is going to be quite bumpy.
• 26:13
  That's just my sense. What I also think is going to
• 26:16
  raise some fundamental issues of what it is going to do for jobs
• 26:21
  and society. You know, I had the privilege of
• 26:25
  being on the Federal Reserve Board for six years.
• 26:27
  And one of the things we used to look at was unemployment and
• 26:31
  prices. And that's what we used to use
• 26:34
  to set the interest rates. And what I see happening now is
• 26:38
  we're going to see a massive increase in output, but we're
• 26:42
  going to see a decoupling of income where first time ever,
• 26:46
  every time in the past, whenever you're adding an output go up,
• 26:49
  salaries and lifestyle went up. Now we're going to see actually
• 26:53
  salaries come down because a lot of this work is going to be
• 26:56
  machines. And what we don't know is what
• 26:59
  does a society like that look like?
• 27:02
  Is there a universal business income that everyone gets $2000
• 27:06
  check every month? And if so, is it Google and
• 27:08
  Microsoft, are they going to be benefit benevolent enough to
• 27:11
  give you that check or is it the US government?
• 27:14
  So what is the mechanism by which this new abundance gets
• 27:17
  shared right is one of the things that is a big question
• 27:20
  mark for me. That's number one.
• 27:22
  Number 2 is how do we make sure that we are building these
• 27:26
  systems with safety and beneficial impact in the front
• 27:34
  end and not later on? There's nothing artificial about
• 27:36
  AI. It impacts humanity.
• 27:38
  It impacts people. We can't do with AI what we did
• 27:42
  with automobiles, right when the internal combustion engine was
• 27:45
  invented, people started building cars and then they
• 27:48
  realized, you know what? Cars are getting killed, people
• 27:51
  are getting killed. I need to put a safety thing
• 27:52
  called a bumper, and they said, OK, you know, I'm going to still
• 27:55
  build a car before this goes into the paint job.
• 27:57
  I'll put a bumper in the front, bumper in the back.
• 28:00
  It took us about 60 years to really get safety right into the
• 28:03
  cars, and hundreds of thousands of people died in the process.
• 28:07
  We don't have 50 years with AI. We probably have five or seven
• 28:10
  years. Exactly.
• 28:11
  And what I see as a second concern outside of the sharing
• 28:15
  of the abundance is how do we make sure we get enough wisdom
• 28:20
  and enough design thinking in place so that we are putting
• 28:24
  steering wheels and brakes and seatbelts on these giant engines
• 28:27
  that we are inventing, right? That's the second part.
• 28:30
  And then the third and final part, which I think that I, I
• 28:34
  see a lot of excitement opportunity about is it's going
• 28:37
  to fundamentally change areas like Wellness, medicine,
• 28:43
  healthcare. Biology was one of the last
• 28:45
  analogues to computers. You could not understand
• 28:49
  biology. But now, I mean, what is DNA?
• 28:51
  DNA is another language model. My granddaughter, when she has a
• 28:55
  daughter, she will probably be gifting out an LLM or whatever
• 28:59
  it will be called then for her liver and for her brain, for her
• 29:02
  heart, so she can engage with this thing.
• 29:04
  So now I think when you unpack biology, there is a whole new
• 29:08
  set of benefits. People are on average going to
• 29:10
  live 10 years longer within 15 years.
• 29:13
  That's the consensus. I would guess it's longer than
• 29:15
  that because we're in such an exponential dex I.
• 29:17
  Would hope so, but I think so. To me, there are, I think, a
• 29:20
  combination of things that are both positive and concerning
• 29:25
  that that we need to steer through.
• 29:26
  Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a heavy, I
• 29:28
  mean, it's a heavy topic, you know, because it, we are on the
• 29:32
  cusp of so much abundance that we just can't even imagine.
• 29:37
  Absolutely. While at the same time the
• 29:39
  destructive capability especially, you know, I'm, I'm
• 29:45
  much more worried about humans using AI to do bad than I am
• 29:51
  about. Bad actors.
• 29:53
  AI becoming conscious and deciding that we're like the
• 29:55
  gorilla and, and the reason, reason why is that we do have a
• 30:01
  disease that we need to transcend already.
• 30:04
  You know, I, I've, I've asked this quite a few times that I'll
• 30:08
  ask you this like one of the one of the diseases we have is and
• 30:13
  it solved World War 2 is the invention of nuclear weapons and
• 30:17
  there's 13,000 you know, worldwide.
• 30:21
  And I did this, you know, very simple analysis of what, what
• 30:25
  would it take to to destroy all the medium to large sized cities
• 30:30
  in the world. And you may already know the
• 30:31
  answer to this because I know you're a fan of the John Mackey
• 30:34
  episode, But, but most people guess way too high in terms of
• 30:39
  the percentage. And so you probably know the
• 30:41
  answer, but it's 2%. We have 50 times as many.
• 30:45
  And there's a acronym, a DoD term for this called MAD,
• 30:51
  mutually sure destruction that is like it built in.
• 30:54
  The acronym shows that we have a disease that we need to overcome
• 30:58
  This 0 sum mindset, this fear of like if China gets AGI before
• 31:02
  us, it's all over, they're going to have a breakout.
• 31:04
  We're all enslaved. And the thing that, that that's,
• 31:09
  that's so hard to even imagine that that happens is, you know,
• 31:15
  we depend on a globally connected economy.
• 31:18
  And we're also 99.9% the same DNA wise.
• 31:22
  And you know, I, I know you're spiritual as well.
• 31:25
  We come from a place of love and light.
• 31:29
  That's, that's the reality that actually surrounds us all the
• 31:32
  time. You know, heaven is actually
• 31:34
  here. Honestly, that's the way out of
• 31:37
  this. I really believe, Brett, what
• 31:39
  you're talking, but I'm not saying just because I'm on this
• 31:41
  podcast, but truly it is love and spirituality that's going to
• 31:45
  see us through it, not what got us to this point because AI has
• 31:49
  already hacked us once. This is the second time it's
• 31:52
  going to hack us in a even bigger level social media where
• 31:56
  we took away the control from human editors and we told an
• 32:00
  algorithm make sure that you get maximum likes and maximum
• 32:04
  shares. And what did the AI do?
• 32:06
  It started creating feeds that put you into this zone of in a
• 32:12
  polarization, you get into an echo chamber and it starts
• 32:15
  feeding you more and more information that gets you to be
• 32:18
  more stuck in your way of saying, see, I was right, right.
• 32:21
  So it's polarized as a society. That was AI one point O now it
• 32:27
  is not just about AI engaging you.
• 32:30
  It's now about AI influencing you.
• 32:33
  Now it's about AI getting to know that 12 year old better
• 32:37
  than her best friend or better than her parents.
• 32:40
  And we're beginning to see when AI starts becoming sort of an
• 32:44
  extension of your emotional engagement, the kinds of harm
• 32:51
  that could be. It could be created in society
• 32:53
  or even for elders and senior citizens with voice and video
• 32:56
  and everything people can impersonate.
• 32:58
  And so there is a whole bunch of societal disruption.
• 33:01
  I think that's going to come about over the next five years,
• 33:05
  and we will need to figure out both at a personal level as well
• 33:09
  as the corporate and governmental level, how do we
• 33:12
  get our arms around it? How do we put the circuit
• 33:14
  Breakers and the GCFI plugs? So when electricity came about,
• 33:19
  a lot of people got electrocuted.
• 33:20
  Then we said, OK, we need junction boxes, right, so that
• 33:23
  this thing doesn't spread. We need a GCFI switch.
• 33:26
  So it, you know, the circuit breaks when it shorts.
• 33:30
  Where are the GCFI switches for AI, right?
• 33:33
  Those are the types of things that I think need to be put in
• 33:35
  place. Now, I completely agree with
• 33:38
  that. And you know, one of the things
• 33:41
  I just wonder about is, is it going to be the frontier models
• 33:45
  that put those in place? Are they in such a seemingly
• 33:50
  existential competitive game with each other, with their, I
• 33:55
  mean, you and I know what it's like to raise money and have a
• 33:59
  valuation that you need to, you know, kind of manifest your
• 34:05
  ability to actually live up to that valuation, right?
• 34:08
  And are they are they just going to be in such a manic pace that
• 34:13
  they can't really take the time to dedicate the appropriate
• 34:18
  amount of time to AI safety? And so it's going to be, you
• 34:21
  know, companies like yours and others that that really provide
• 34:24
  that. Gets to the heart of again, your
• 34:27
  podcast is it's Love conquers fear.
• 34:29
  Yes, right now these companies are coming from a place of fear.
• 34:32
  Yes, that's for sure. Fear.
• 34:34
  That China is going to get ahead of me.
• 34:35
  Fear that if I don't raise the money, Anthropic will raise the
• 34:38
  money. Fear that, you know, the bigger
• 34:41
  the model, the better it is. They're not coming from a place
• 34:44
  of love, right? To say, how do I put this in
• 34:46
  place in a manner that creates the most abundance and know that
• 34:51
  the society will reward me for it, Right, Right.
• 34:54
  The good news there is that the frontier model, the way it
• 34:57
  exists today, are not going to be, in my opinion, the final
• 35:00
  winners of it. This is just the first wave.
• 35:03
  This is like your COBOL and Pascal compilers, and they are
• 35:08
  not the, the, the stuff that created the Internet.
• 35:11
  Because, you know, you've seen Yan Li Kun from Meta who's left
• 35:15
  now. He's been talking a lot about
• 35:17
  the world models, right? Yes.
• 35:18
  How language models is not enough.
• 35:20
  You got to get to world models. And Doctor Phi Phi Li's work.
• 35:22
  Phi Phi Li is working, yeah, I think, I think that is powerful,
• 35:27
  that's good. But even there is something even
• 35:28
  beyond that, I believe beyond I mean world models, I think is an
• 35:32
  important step in the right direction.
• 35:34
  But in order to truly put this in place and we can have a one
• 35:37
  hour long technical discussion on what is the next model after
• 35:40
  that. But it's all doable from a
• 35:42
  science perspective. What I'm not seeing enough of is
• 35:47
  the outcome in approach. I'm seeing more the intelligence
• 35:51
  out approach. Right.
• 35:52
  Then let me go build the biggest data center, biggest model and
• 35:55
  then revenue will follow. I think that's the other unlock
• 35:59
  where I'm hoping that entrepreneurs, there's plenty of
• 36:01
  technology already there once AI gets self recursing.
• 36:05
  So as I said to you in the earlier part, right, we're in
• 36:08
  phase two of three. First phase was large language
• 36:11
  models or language foundation models.
• 36:13
  Phase 2 is agentic workflows. Phase 3 is recursive.
• 36:17
  When these systems start coming up with their own hypothesis,
• 36:21
  researching it, experimenting with it, and they start building
• 36:24
  this flywheel right when they discover new materials on their
• 36:28
  own, when they do new PhD level research on their own, that's
• 36:32
  where I believe some massive outcomes are going to be.
• 36:35
  That's where I believe this shift from foundation models is
• 36:39
  going to go to outcomes, right. And and there's never been a
• 36:42
  better time to be an entrepreneur than to be now,
• 36:45
  because in the next three to five years, there is going to be
• 36:48
  a lot of self improving AI oriented companies that will
• 36:52
  come about. Right, right.
• 36:54
  And that's the exciting part. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree
• 36:56
  entrepreneurially and capitalistically it's, it's it's
• 36:59
  amazing opportunity. I mean, one of the things that I
• 37:03
  thought was ridiculous was the, you know, 6 month pause.
• 37:08
  Oh yeah, that was that was. Just laughed when I saw that.
• 37:10
  I'm like, come on. He's like, yeah.
• 37:12
  Well, so, so I mean, let's just do a quick time machine because
• 37:15
  it was that long ago. So, you know, we're recording
• 37:18
  this in at the end of January here in 2026.
• 37:23
  It was November 30th of 2022. The GPT launch a really changed
• 37:28
  the game fastest company ever get to 100 million users.
• 37:31
  It was four months later with GPT 4 where the moratorium kind
• 37:36
  of pause occurred. It got over 37,000 signatures, I
• 37:41
  believe, including Elon Musk at the time.
• 37:45
  You know, now he's he's all in on abundance for all, which is
• 37:48
  cool. That was his talk at Davos, but
• 37:52
  he's also all in on XAI, right and, and, and really, really
• 37:56
  making sure that that he, you know, from his standpoint, wins
• 38:00
  this kind of AI race to create abundance.
• 38:04
  So, you know, we're, we're like just barely three years after
• 38:09
  the launch of Chachi PT. And from a, from a investment
• 38:12
  perspective, you know, last year President Trump in January 21st
• 38:18
  of last year announced the creation of the Stargate
• 38:24
  project. That was 500 billion of funding.
• 38:27
  That is already more money inflation adjusted than we spent
• 38:32
  on Manhattan Project to win World War 2 and more money than
• 38:35
  we spent on the space race versus the Russians to to
• 38:39
  hopefully have some, you know, control over space, which which
• 38:42
  I think we have quite a bit of that, you know, actually Space
• 38:45
  XI think is 60% of all the satellites that that are above
• 38:48
  us right now. So you know, since that moment
• 38:53
  of last year, January 21st, we have and by the way, DeepSeek R1
• 39:00
  came out on January 20th. That was very interesting
• 39:03
  synchronicity like showing that maybe open source will be the
• 39:06
  the path to win. I actually think open source is
• 39:08
  going to win long term. And yeah, I would love your
• 39:12
  opinion on that given given your IBM roots and Linux and all of
• 39:15
  that. But the, you know, since then,
• 39:18
  there's been about $7 trillion of announcements made around the
• 39:21
  world towards the creation of AGI.
• 39:24
  We've never seen anything like this in humanity in terms of
• 39:29
  investment to create something. And, and, and I do agree that a
• 39:34
  big part of it is fear. I explored that in an essay a
• 39:37
  while back where I quoted from, from the Bhagavad Gita.
• 39:41
  But I think that it's also hope. I mean, I think that there's,
• 39:46
  there's something deep in us that really wants to understand
• 39:50
  this reality that we're in. And this is 1 path to accelerate
• 39:55
  to get there. But also we want, we want to
• 39:59
  manifest that world of the end of disease and unlimited energy
• 40:02
  and, you know, healthcare for all and this, this, this world
• 40:05
  of abundance, like that's also deep in US.
• 40:09
  And sometimes you know. Can't see exactly where you're
• 40:12
  going unless you look at it in reverse, as Steve Jobs said in
• 40:14
  his famous Stanford commencement speech.
• 40:17
  So it feels like we're hurtling towards this as humanity.
• 40:23
  And I view this as God's final exam to create this forcing
• 40:29
  function for us to make the right choice and finally conquer
• 40:34
  the demon of fear, which is, you know, ever present because of
• 40:42
  the scarcity that we've come from, you know, again, not
• 40:45
  having electricity for 99.9% of our time.
• 40:47
  I, I think, I think you nailed it.
• 40:49
  I think that's. Exactly.
• 40:50
  Sort of where we are. I think there is hope and also
• 40:53
  there is hype, right? And I think with all important
• 40:57
  technologies, that's the pattern.
• 41:00
  I like what Jeff Bezos said a few months ago where he when
• 41:04
  someone has MRV in a bubble, he said, you know, we are in an
• 41:08
  industrial bubble, but not in the technology bubble.
• 41:11
  And, and when you double click on it, what you so, so
• 41:15
  blockchain was a technology bubble.
• 41:17
  There was a lot of money that went in, it crashed, but it did
• 41:21
  not result in a new industry. Internet was an industry bubble.
• 41:26
  Lot of money came in and it crashed, but it did create a new
• 41:29
  industry at the end of 10 years. I think AI, we are in the middle
• 41:33
  of an industry bubble. I think there's going to be a
• 41:36
  pullback and I'll go on the record for saying that I think
• 41:39
  it's probably going to happen this year, but it is not going
• 41:42
  to be the end of AI. It's just going to get I think
• 41:45
  more focus on the basic economics of revenues and in a
• 41:49
  capital expense and stuff like that.
• 41:51
  Because truly, if you look at it from an enterprise perspective,
• 41:54
  outside of some general generative AI assistance and
• 41:58
  code writers and some image creators, there is not a whole
• 42:02
  lot of business value that has yet been created.
• 42:06
  There is a lot of talk, a lot of hype about AGI.
• 42:09
  But if you ask the CE OS and CI OS, outside of some basic
• 42:12
  productivity gains, the outcome on the balance sheet has not
• 42:17
  stayed up to where the investments are going.
• 42:20
  So that leads me to believe that there is a necessary and
• 42:23
  important correction that's coming.
• 42:25
  So that could be sort of the pre finals of God's final exam to
• 42:29
  say, you know, get your mechanics of how do you
• 42:33
  capitalize on this technology, right, right.
• 42:35
  And then I think followed by that, then make sure also that
• 42:39
  you're approaching it the right way from a safety and benefit
• 42:43
  and abundance point of view, Right, right.
• 42:45
  I'll, I'll be curious to hear your perspective on that.
• 42:47
  I mean, how do you see this play out?
• 42:48
  I mean, this next, you know, year or two, what do you see
• 42:52
  happening around the the trillions that have gone in?
• 42:55
  Well, I you know I do. Invest in startups alongside my
• 42:59
  wife Deborah, we're in 150 startups who've been doing it
• 43:03
  for 16 years. 12 of them are unicorns now, which is pretty.
• 43:06
  And then we're in 50 venture capital funds as well.
• 43:12
  I, I think that 90 to 95% of AI application companies are going
• 43:19
  to go out of business. And, and the reason why is I
• 43:22
  think they're flying too close to, to the sun like Icarus,
• 43:25
  these frontier models are so ambitious.
• 43:29
  You know, we have, we have a company right now that we've
• 43:31
  been investors in for a long time.
• 43:33
  That is probably now irrelevant because of ChatGPT health.
• 43:38
  Like, it's just that, that that's kind of might be the game
• 43:41
  over. And and so it's it's, it's it
• 43:46
  from an investment perspective, we're really asking ourselves
• 43:50
  number one, is this a company that can get us to abundance for
• 43:54
  all, like really deeply do we? Yeah, values based investing,
• 43:58
  Yeah. And then number. 2 is do we?
• 44:00
  Think it's, it's, it's durable as an investment or not.
• 44:05
  And so that's, that's the that's the way we're thinking about
• 44:08
  things. And, and it's, and it hasn't
• 44:10
  meant a shift like we're not investing as in as many software
• 44:14
  as a service companies as we used to.
• 44:16
  That's kind of like, you know, where where I started out, you
• 44:19
  know, career wise with core networks and bizarre voice and
• 44:23
  dated out world. And now, now it is, it is a
• 44:25
  whole different world. So it's kind of hard as an
• 44:28
  investor to get to get footing on it.
• 44:31
  I don't think we'll look back on this moment and say a lot of
• 44:35
  that money was well spent. A lot of those valuations were
• 44:38
  justified. I just, you know, I've seen this
• 44:40
  movie before. I do think that it is also true
• 44:44
  at the same time that this this time it's different.
• 44:47
  That's like the most dangerous word to ever say as a
• 44:50
  technologist or investor. But I I also really believe
• 44:55
  that. I mean, we are we agree that
• 44:57
  this is like the creation of electricity.
• 44:59
  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely I'm.
• 45:01
  Actually seeing that on the other side of it as a as an
• 45:04
  entrepreneur now back being ACEO is, you know, I've raised over
• 45:08
  $450 million in my life across my companies.
• 45:11
  Yeah, yeah, we trust wise almost three years into it, you guess
• 45:16
  how much I've raised 5 million. Yeah, wow.
• 45:18
  Because I have said to my team more efficient.
• 45:21
  Yeah, because you now. Have a.
• 45:23
  Whole new class of digital workers if I'm going to enable
• 45:26
  that for my companies and my customers, I should be eating my
• 45:31
  own cooking, I should be drinking my own champagne.
• 45:33
  And I said by the end of this year will be 100 people, 35
• 45:36
  humans, 65 digital workers. So and you can get a lot more
• 45:41
  done if you build that as a muscle memory and if you build
• 45:44
  that as a focus of how work gets done in the future.
• 45:48
  So I do see this, this whole notion of being prudent, being
• 45:53
  practical about where you put in the money and then I call it
• 45:56
  nail it before you scale it, right.
• 45:58
  So our goals are very simple. We are still growing, you know,
• 46:00
  200, three, 100% a year, but it is in a very different cost and
• 46:06
  my balance sheet looks very different than what it was when
• 46:08
  you and I were running company. So I think there is going to be
• 46:11
  a whole new model of venture capital and a whole new model of
• 46:15
  entrepreneurs and investment models that are going to come
• 46:18
  about. Yeah, my current thesis is that.
• 46:21
  The most exciting action that's durable is in AI enabling old
• 46:28
  line industries to completely transform.
• 46:31
  And so there's a lot of upstarts that are that are rebuilding
• 46:34
  things that have been around forever that have almost no
• 46:37
  competition because they're kind of monopolies.
• 46:40
  Absolutely. And and so.
• 46:42
  We've been. Looking well, we've been
• 46:44
  investing in a lot of companies and in areas like that I'm I'm
• 46:48
  working with a few private. Equity companies, I advise them,
• 46:50
  one of them is looking at buying a 30 year old architectural
• 46:55
  firm. All they do is construction
• 46:57
  projects around the world, large scale construction projects, and
• 47:01
  it's all on folders and manuals. There's a lot of knowledge and
• 47:06
  IP in there that ChatGPT and others haven't been able to get
• 47:09
  to. So imagine building a ChatGPT
• 47:12
  for architecture for construction of ports and
• 47:15
  construction of railway systems. I think to your point, taking
• 47:19
  these old school businesses, you know, I like to say boring makes
• 47:22
  billions and there's a lot of boring stuff in work that you
• 47:26
  can, if you focus and go deeper, there's unique data in there and
• 47:29
  you apply these models that people are spending trillions of
• 47:32
  dollars to, you can create some great businesses out of it.
• 47:35
  You know, you know another another way to.
• 47:37
  Think about that is during the during the six month pause, I
• 47:40
  went on a number of podcast and talking about how ridiculous I
• 47:45
  thought it was. You know, one of the things I
• 47:47
  said is is be like, you know, your tribe discovering fire and
• 47:51
  then being like, Nope, not going to share it with you.
• 47:54
  This is this is this is this crazy that that that would that
• 47:58
  be the case. But the, the, the, the point I
• 48:02
  made back then March of 2023 is that there would be millions and
• 48:08
  millions of new start-ups. They would each individually be
• 48:11
  smaller. They would remake a lot of
• 48:14
  things 100% and do it much more efficiently 100%.
• 48:18
  And so because there's a death of platforms, I mean, how?
• 48:21
  Many times are you going to go to a.
• 48:23
  So that's the other big shift because of agents and AI is you
• 48:26
  don't need to go to a single platform like an Amazon or like,
• 48:31
  you know, now I was telling this to my daughter.
• 48:34
  I said within five years, instead of those five, you know,
• 48:37
  your iPhone with 200 little Chiclets each of an app, you
• 48:41
  will have one interface, probably 3 at most, where you
• 48:44
  will say, I want to go to Bali in September, stay at a hotel on
• 48:48
  a beach, but not spend so much money, see if my credit card has
• 48:52
  points on it. And then send this to dad and
• 48:55
  mom and see if they want to come with me.
• 48:56
  Yeah, today I have to go to seven different apps to do that.
• 48:59
  That's right, in this world of AIO.
• 49:02
  And then those have become. Platforms, that's where you go
• 49:04
  to an Instagram, that's where you go to a Facebook marketplace
• 49:07
  or a Kayak. All of that is going to dissolve
• 49:10
  into a whole new type of experience.
• 49:12
  And like you said, these threads of value, there's going to be a
• 49:17
  lot more smaller companies because you don't necessarily
• 49:19
  need to go to a Google or you don't need to go to AI, mean you
• 49:23
  probably still will need to go to a big Google.
• 49:26
  But the niche companies, I think there's a whole new class of
• 49:29
  economic value creation model that's about to come.
• 49:32
  Yeah, for sure. And and Google's remaking.
• 49:34
  Themselves right now, they're doing a damn good job of it,
• 49:36
  actually. I'm very impressed.
• 49:37
  With some of the things they've done, they they started out slow
• 49:40
  and now they've got like. Serious religion even though
• 49:42
  they invented the transformed model, right?
• 49:44
  I mean they they enabled that through open source.
• 49:46
  Have you tried their notebook LM?
• 49:49
  Oh, it's, it's, it's brilliant in terms of what the, the, the
• 49:52
  UX is still a little clunky, the user interface, but the power
• 49:56
  and the capability of what they've been able to do is a
• 49:58
  glimpse of what I think can be done with AI.
• 50:02
  You know, I'll, I'll tell you a funny story.
• 50:04
  It's, I think people are still looking at AI as a way to
• 50:08
  automate things that they already know.
• 50:11
  And a good analogy. I was looking at some old
• 50:15
  YouTube videos. You know when television came
• 50:17
  about, the first 2-3 years of television.
• 50:20
  When you look at those TV shows, what you see is mostly a guy
• 50:25
  sitting behind a desk in front of a microphone and speaking
• 50:29
  into it. And that was television.
• 50:31
  It was probably only after about four or five years.
• 50:33
  Then someone said, you know what?
• 50:34
  I don't need to be behind a desk.
• 50:37
  I can actually walk around and the camera can follow me.
• 50:40
  Why? Because they came from a world
• 50:42
  of radio, right? And on the radio you sat on a
• 50:44
  chair and you spoken to a mic. So even though there was a whole
• 50:48
  new exponential technology called TV, they took in their
• 50:51
  muscle memory. I see.
• 50:54
  As in that same stage we're sort of looking at workflows and
• 50:57
  processes as we know it, sitting behind a desk, speaking into a
• 51:01
  microphone. What is about to come about?
• 51:03
  Is a whole new way. Of doing stuff, yeah, yeah, I
• 51:06
  mean, shout out to. Brandon Godochi, who work for us
• 51:09
  at Dated Out World, who now has his own practice, which is all
• 51:13
  focused on AI operations. And actually the, the woman that
• 51:16
  coined that term is Rachel Wood. She's going to be on this
• 51:19
  podcast. She worked for Dated Out World
• 51:21
  too. She actually invented that term
• 51:23
  AI operations, made a whole consulting practice out of it.
• 51:26
  One, one thing I wanted to say about Notebook LM, I'm a huge,
• 51:30
  huge fan of that. That's one of my favorite Google
• 51:33
  products, but my first book, the entrepreneurs essentials, I
• 51:37
  think was the first book where you know, you can get it for
• 51:41
  free on the entrepreneursessentials.com
• 51:43
  where I converted every single chapter into a consumable
• 51:48
  podcast with notebook LM. No kidding.
• 51:51
  Wow. And actually took, took took
• 51:52
  quite a bit of effort to do that because it often wouldn't cover
• 51:57
  key details and I had to go back.
• 51:59
  And so you're one of the early power users.
• 52:01
  Want it? Yeah.
• 52:02
  To to be like, you know, make sure.
• 52:03
  To cover this and that and you're not covering this enough,
• 52:06
  etcetera. So that it was balanced like the
• 52:08
  chapter was. So it took lots and lots of
• 52:10
  iterations to get right, but that's available for free online
• 52:14
  to people if they want to just get the bubble gum version of,
• 52:18
  you know, the entrepreneurs essentials.
• 52:20
  They can just listen to it on A. And again, kudos to you for
• 52:23
  making. It available for free for
• 52:25
  everyone and also same thing with education, right, The
• 52:28
  implication of AI on education and democratizing education.
• 52:32
  So you know a kid in Nairobi versus a kid in North London now
• 52:36
  can have access to the same sort of a tutor, if you may.
• 52:39
  Those are some of the exciting things I think that are just
• 52:41
  coming about. Yeah, for sure, I would love to.
• 52:45
  Really honor the fact that you are one of the original pioneers
• 52:51
  of thinking of responsible AI. So why don't we talk about about
• 52:55
  the nonprofit you started and and the one that we were
• 52:58
  involved with since the early days of data.
• 53:00
  You are one of the earlier charter.
• 53:01
  Members into that. So, you know, you know, it's
• 53:06
  interesting. There are moments in life that
• 53:08
  that change the very direction of your life.
• 53:10
  And a year into running IBM Watson, I was in Washington, DC,
• 53:15
  talking to about 8000 people about how we were putting Watson
• 53:20
  to work in cancer. And about 10 minutes into my
• 53:23
  talk this, I remember his face so clearly.
• 53:26
  The guy in this third row, he stands up, interrupts me on my
• 53:30
  keynote, and he says, I know what you're doing.
• 53:33
  And he says, my wife has third stage breast cancer.
• 53:37
  And you're building Obama's death panel machine because this
• 53:40
  machine is going to decide whether she gets the treatment
• 53:43
  or she dies. And this machine can't explain
• 53:46
  itself because you just took it from Jeopardy playing game and
• 53:49
  now you are playing games with people's lives, OK.
• 53:53
  I mean, you talked about. Something hitting you?
• 53:55
  As it's, I remember crying and tears going down my eyes as I
• 53:58
  was driving to the airport that night.
• 54:00
  Absolutely. And then I realized, you know,
• 54:01
  there is. This whole silicon.
• 54:03
  Valley mindset about move fast and break things and I said that
• 54:07
  will not work with AIAI is about impacting people's lives, his
• 54:11
  family, his life, his wife. So that set me on this journey
• 54:15
  to start thinking about if I Fast forward, you know, as
• 54:18
  entrepreneurs, one thing we do well, at least the two gifts I
• 54:21
  have. I've never been the smartest
• 54:23
  guy, but what I've learned is I have two gifts.
• 54:25
  One, I can look around the corner faster than most people.
• 54:28
  Second, I have an eye for good people.
• 54:30
  I know how to pull good teams together.
• 54:32
  And as I looked around the corner and I started fast
• 54:34
  forwarding what Watson like technologies will do.
• 54:37
  This is 10 years ago, something became very obvious, which was
• 54:41
  that all these large companies are going to promote their own
• 54:44
  AI and they're going to self mark their own homework and
• 54:48
  they're going to sell that, right.
• 54:50
  And there is no independent company that can verify their
• 54:54
  claims. So that led me to create the
• 54:56
  Responsible AI Institute as a nonprofit.
• 54:59
  So I went to the University of Texas, Austin to USAA, to
• 55:03
  Anthem, a few companies and you guys came in like a year later
• 55:06
  and, and I said, let's create a nonprofit that will serve like,
• 55:11
  you know, our JD Edwards or a FICO of AI, an independent
• 55:16
  assessment of is your AI beneficial?
• 55:20
  Is it compliant? And so 10 years later, now we
• 55:24
  have a community of about 44,000 people.
• 55:26
  We've had hundreds of, you know, companies that have become
• 55:29
  members and now the mission of it is even more important than
• 55:33
  it was 10 years ago because AI is coming in so fast and there
• 55:37
  are no standards and people are self marking their own homework.
• 55:41
  So boards are coming to us and saying, hey, you know, I'm about
• 55:45
  to put this into a mortgage application checker.
• 55:49
  I know it's a matter of time before I get sued and today I
• 55:54
  have no backup other than saying my smart engineer felt this is
• 55:57
  the right way to put it to work. Can you be the third party
• 56:00
  assurance for us, right? So we have started creating
• 56:03
  these badges, these independent badges, almost like a good in
• 56:07
  American Heart Health Association type of a badge
• 56:10
  where people bring in either confidentially or publicly.
• 56:14
  They're digital worker to us. We do a drug test on it.
• 56:18
  We do a little probation test on it and then if they like, we
• 56:22
  will give them a badge and a report.
• 56:24
  If not, we will tell them these are the five areas you need to
• 56:28
  go improve your AI on. And that you know, I was telling
• 56:32
  my daughter the other day, the purpose of life is a life of
• 56:35
  purpose. Absolutely.
• 56:37
  That is my purpose. In life.
• 56:39
  Is enabling an independent nonprofit that gives the world a
• 56:43
  place to go to to get a verification on how good is this
• 56:48
  other than believing it in an IBM or a Google or a Anthropic?
• 56:52
  Yeah, Yeah. Well, well done I.
• 56:54
  Mean, that was incredibly pioneering.
• 56:58
  I knew we had to be a part of it.
• 57:00
  When you ask, I didn't know know you were doing it at the time,
• 57:03
  but when you ask us, you know, we jumped in really quickly.
• 57:07
  Thank you for that. We stumbled around.
• 57:08
  For the first three years, we were just defining what
• 57:10
  responsible AI meant, right? Right now, we can't sell this
• 57:13
  fast enough because people want to classify.
• 57:16
  And now people are saying literally one of the large
• 57:19
  Japanese conglomerate told us by the end of this year they expect
• 57:22
  to have 100,000 agents in their company, 100,000.
• 57:26
  And they're saying the first step is we can't even classify
• 57:30
  how dangerous this one is. Is it a squirrel or is it a
• 57:33
  Chucky? And we have no mechanism to even
• 57:37
  classify. Then we will put controls on
• 57:39
  them. Then we will do evaluation.
• 57:42
  So step one is can you tell us how beneficial or how harmful
• 57:47
  this is likely to be? So I think we have hit on
• 57:49
  something years into it that is going to scale nicely and create
• 57:54
  some good good for the world. I love what you told your.
• 57:56
  Daughter, you know I always recommend the book to any human
• 58:00
  being. It you don't have you know it's
• 58:03
  not just for Jewish people. Man's Search for Meaning by
• 58:06
  Viktor Frankel. You know who survived 4
• 58:10
  concentration camps during the Holocaust I'll look it up too.
• 58:13
  And thanks to your. Podcast, you know, I have a list
• 58:15
  of like 18 books that I've ordered after as have been like
• 58:19
  writing them down. So I, I do appreciate you
• 58:22
  sharing this, you know, this gift of thank you, thank you,
• 58:26
  thank you. Well, I've been.
• 58:27
  You know, this is, this is the work that I'm supposed to be
• 58:30
  doing. I mean, I know that this is what
• 58:32
  my soul wants me to do. I've become very, I've become
• 58:36
  much more embodied with my soul and my physicality and my
• 58:40
  purpose. And, and I, you know, you
• 58:42
  brought up spirituality earlier. How do you, how do you view this
• 58:47
  reality that we're in right now? Like, what do you think?
• 58:51
  Yeah, what do you think? This, this is, you know, there's
• 58:55
  so many. Like with like with the
• 58:58
  religion, you know, life is a very personal journey and, and
• 59:02
  we all experience it and we all sort of navigate our way through
• 59:05
  what what is known to me, what I've picked up so far is that
• 59:08
  there are multiple levels at which we operate and most of us
• 59:12
  get stuck, including myself at level 1.
• 59:15
  So I look at it as and it kind of parlays nicely into AI also.
• 59:19
  So that is the first level I call is the brain, right, which
• 59:23
  is sort of like the hardware. And then there's a second level,
• 59:25
  which is mind, which is sort of the software.
• 59:29
  And then there is a third level, which is consciousness, which is
• 59:33
  sort of awareness. And then there is a fourth
• 59:34
  level, which is meta consciousness, which is
• 59:37
  awareness about awareness. The fact that you know, you are
• 59:40
  at a meta conscious level now, which is this is what I'm here
• 59:43
  for these 150 investments because my awareness is that I
• 59:48
  need to be aware that many other people need to do good for me.
• 59:51
  It's a responsible AI institute. So, so you got the brain, you
• 59:55
  got the mind, you got the consciousness and then you got
• 59:58
  the meta consciousness, right, which is awareness of awareness.
• 1:00:01
  Then there is the universal consciousness, which people call
• 1:00:03
  as God, which is, which has no center the 1st 4 levels.
• 1:00:08
  Have a center on it. And as long as you're centered
• 1:00:12
  in something, you are mostly in a place of fear and not in a
• 1:00:16
  place of love. God to me and spirituality to me
• 1:00:21
  is to be in that place of love. And we have to cross those 4
• 1:00:25
  layers to be able to connect to that.
• 1:00:28
  And sort of mentally, what I kind of look at this, and even
• 1:00:32
  though I was born a Hindu, I don't consider myself into, I'm
• 1:00:36
  very spiritual. I feel as spiritual in a church
• 1:00:39
  or in a synagogue as I do in a temple.
• 1:00:42
  But I do look at all of us as being connected of the same
• 1:00:45
  thing. It's life.
• 1:00:47
  My life to me is like in an ocean.
• 1:00:50
  If you if you look at an ocean and if you take a stone and you
• 1:00:54
  throw it into the ocean, the bubble or the drop that comes
• 1:00:58
  out and goes back into the ocean, that duration of the time
• 1:01:02
  that that that drop comes up, Right.
• 1:01:05
  That's my life. Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  And then I go back, hopefully that's right.
• 1:01:08
  To being a part of the greater ocean.
• 1:01:10
  Yeah. And that's what I think we all,
• 1:01:14
  at least that's what I believe that we will belong to.
• 1:01:16
  Is there a greater consciousness?
• 1:01:17
  Yeah. Well, I very much agree.
• 1:01:19
  With that, and you know, my, my definition of God is that it is
• 1:01:28
  where we get our definition of love from that the reality that
• 1:01:33
  we come from is this world of, you know, this universe of light
• 1:01:39
  and love and whatever is even beyond the universe.
• 1:01:42
  I mean, you know, every materialist has to grapple with
• 1:01:44
  the miracle of The Big Bang. You know what created this point
• 1:01:50
  13.8 billion years ago that we find that it's longer than that
• 1:01:53
  through the James Webb telescope.
• 1:01:55
  And there was something before that, right?
• 1:01:56
  There, yeah, there, there before.
• 1:01:58
  The Big Bang There was something.
• 1:01:59
  Well, there had. To be yeah.
• 1:02:00
  And and and that exactly. And we see it the same way.
• 1:02:03
  This is the first. Universe that we've ever been
• 1:02:08
  in, you know, and I do believe very much and I've seen that our
• 1:02:12
  souls are eternal. And you know, we, you know, one
• 1:02:18
  of the, one of the, the, the beliefs of the Hindus, although
• 1:02:22
  it's in many other religions as well, is the reincarnation
• 1:02:26
  process. And I very much believe in that
• 1:02:28
  too. I've seen, I've seen people who
• 1:02:31
  have a very visceral view of what their past lives were
• 1:02:36
  through either psychedelic journeys, regression therapy,
• 1:02:40
  all different types of means. Sometimes a spontaneous
• 1:02:43
  spiritual awakening, I think. I think all to me.
• 1:02:46
  God and religion are like different languages speaking to
• 1:02:51
  the same maker like French and Spanish and Hindi speaking about
• 1:02:56
  the same love. And to me Christianity, Judaism,
• 1:03:00
  Hinduism is like different languages addressing the same.
• 1:03:04
  And as a six foot two kid growing up in India and going to
• 1:03:08
  a Methodist school, I always used to be picked up would be
• 1:03:11
  one of the three wise men at Christmas and and doing all the
• 1:03:14
  stuff. There's a part of the process.
• 1:03:16
  I got to know a lot more about Christianity and through the
• 1:03:20
  nuns and and and the fathers sort of, you know, shaped our
• 1:03:23
  thinking. And one of the things I always
• 1:03:26
  try to understand as a teenager was the definition of heaven and
• 1:03:29
  hell, right as the great the Christianity says.
• 1:03:32
  And then how Hinduism or Buddhism.
• 1:03:35
  And again, it's a very personal point of view.
• 1:03:37
  I, it's, it's not meant to be a judgement on one or the other,
• 1:03:40
  But what I think is heaven and hell is something that is
• 1:03:46
  happening to you at every moment.
• 1:03:48
  Every moment that you're not in a place of love, you are in
• 1:03:51
  hell. Every moment you are in a place
• 1:03:54
  of fear is a hell, right? So to me, heaven and hell is a
• 1:03:58
  state that your actions and your mindset and your spirituality
• 1:04:03
  puts you in as you traverse through life.
• 1:04:07
  I don't know what belongs after that when I become a part of the
• 1:04:09
  bigger ocean. But I do know that for now, when
• 1:04:14
  I get up in the morning and if I come from a place of fear, it's
• 1:04:19
  going to be hell for me. And you know, some of those
• 1:04:21
  around me. And the goal is to sort of keep
• 1:04:25
  trying to find that center. That's why I love your podcast
• 1:04:28
  title about love Conquers Fear is to find that place of love.
• 1:04:32
  So you're moving above from your brain to your mind to your meta
• 1:04:36
  consciousness. Yeah, you know, well, then
• 1:04:38
  again, that's where, that's where all.
• 1:04:40
  Religions seek, you know, the spiritual root and, and that to
• 1:04:44
  me is where the truth is, you know, I mean, I loved reading
• 1:04:48
  the Bhagavad Gita. I loved it.
• 1:04:49
  I thought it was so amazing in that part on the battlefield
• 1:04:54
  where Arjun and Krishna are talking and Arjun is like, show
• 1:04:57
  me God, show me God, you know, show me what what God is because
• 1:05:01
  Krishna becomes embodiment of God.
• 1:05:03
  And it's, you know, the translation by Stephen Mitchell
• 1:05:06
  is so good. It's like it makes my heart race
• 1:05:09
  even just thinking about it. But as he shows him, you know,
• 1:05:13
  then he's like, stop, stop, stop.
• 1:05:15
  You know, he's like, this is just, I think that that's the
• 1:05:17
  part I think people don't. I, I think what hit me was
• 1:05:22
  society and culture moves forward through stories.
• 1:05:26
  Stories is how we propagate humanity and, and, and
• 1:05:29
  civilization. And one of the stories in
• 1:05:32
  Bhagavad Gita was a story that I was 10 years old when I was
• 1:05:35
  reading and, and it was Watson that it came back to me.
• 1:05:39
  And now it's come back again with AI was there is a concept
• 1:05:42
  in Hinduism that if you are a wise man who have accomplished
• 1:05:46
  much in life, when you die, if someone comes and asks you for
• 1:05:50
  the gift of your knowledge, you can pass it on to them.
• 1:05:53
  I was fascinated with the concept because I used to think,
• 1:05:56
  you know how what a shame that when someone gets older, when
• 1:06:00
  they're at the peak of their wisdom, all of them get snatched
• 1:06:03
  away and gets lost to to the ages.
• 1:06:06
  So this story that Krishna went to his opponent who he had fell
• 1:06:11
  on the battlefield called Vishwa.
• 1:06:13
  He stood at his feet and he was on lying on a bed of arrows.
• 1:06:17
  And Krishna asked, Bhishma, before you die, can you give me
• 1:06:20
  all your knowledge? And he gives it to him, even
• 1:06:23
  though he's an enemy. And I used to always struggle
• 1:06:25
  with the fact that, you know, that's the biggest way.
• 1:06:27
  So when I was asked IBM Watson to run IBM Watson, the first
• 1:06:31
  thing that hit me was this is my Bhishma machine.
• 1:06:34
  Because before this moment, everything that I knew was lost
• 1:06:39
  to humanity till the person, the last person who knew my name,
• 1:06:43
  when they died, I was lost to the history.
• 1:06:46
  But now with Watson and with Internet, I can live on forever
• 1:06:51
  in the sense that you know information about me.
• 1:06:54
  What AI does and foundation models do is they don't even
• 1:06:59
  just know about me. They know about what I know and
• 1:07:02
  have not what you know. To all of the rest of the
• 1:07:06
  humanity. Humanity's content.
• 1:07:08
  Exactly. So fascinating.
• 1:07:10
  Imagine the. Power of that now you truly are
• 1:07:13
  going to live forever not from a arrogant point of view, but in
• 1:07:16
  terms of your gestures and your knowledge and your know how is
• 1:07:21
  going to be a part of that that the board collective if you may
• 1:07:25
  right, right. So it's a fascinating.
• 1:07:27
  Time to be alive, yeah. It is.
• 1:07:29
  I mean, it's it's the most. Fascinating time to be alive.
• 1:07:31
  It really feels like all of our our entrepreneurial career has
• 1:07:35
  has led to this moment. And, and this is, you know, it's
• 1:07:40
  it's cool that we have the synchronicity with you with
• 1:07:42
  responsible AI. What I'm doing you with with
• 1:07:46
  trust wise. You know, I dated out world was
• 1:07:49
  acquired by, you know, service now on 7/7.
• 1:07:52
  And then it really has become foundational for for for their
• 1:07:56
  AI efforts. And you know, really, you know,
• 1:07:59
  we were AB Corp and so it's infused.
• 1:08:02
  ServiceNow was already a great culture, but it's infused it
• 1:08:05
  with really, really good people, you know, who really, really
• 1:08:07
  care. At the end of the day, that's
• 1:08:09
  what matters. It's.
• 1:08:10
  It's people and the tribes that you, you know, connect with.
• 1:08:14
  I love this old African saying that said, you know, if you want
• 1:08:17
  to go fast, you go alone. If you want to go far, you go
• 1:08:20
  with a group of people. Absolutely.
• 1:08:22
  And you and I have been very yeah.
• 1:08:24
  And you have been very blessed to have found those tribes, to
• 1:08:27
  have gone so far with them. And I think and it's, it's great
• 1:08:31
  to see you sort of find your purpose and do what you're doing
• 1:08:34
  because, right, I mean, this stuff is going to be even more
• 1:08:37
  relevant in the next 5 to 10 years.
• 1:08:39
  Yeah, for sure. And the only way out of this,
• 1:08:43
  this mental lock around just money and capitalism that we are
• 1:08:46
  on with AI is to find love through it.
• 1:08:49
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  So I'm curious. You know, because I know you're
• 1:08:53
  such a deep thinker on this and all of your time with Watson,
• 1:08:56
  etcetera. Like what do you think about
• 1:08:58
  this, this current moment on is AI going to be sentient and
• 1:09:04
  every bit as conscious as you and I are now there?
• 1:09:07
  There's nothing in the human experience without
• 1:09:10
  consciousness. And you know, 10 to 20 years
• 1:09:14
  ago, if you're an academic and said that you wanted to study
• 1:09:17
  consciousness, the dogma would grind you down, you know, you
• 1:09:21
  would be cancelled. And actually, I was corrected,
• 1:09:24
  you know, on the podcast episode that I did with, with Paige
• 1:09:28
  Brett, episode 40 where she, she said to me, actually, I think
• 1:09:32
  that's the case sometimes now, even now in 2026.
• 1:09:36
  So, so I'm just, I'm just kind of curious, like how you think
• 1:09:40
  of this moment. I really explored this deeply
• 1:09:42
  with Aneel on episode 12. And one of the points he made
• 1:09:46
  there is we don't even know what consciousness is like.
• 1:09:50
  So how can we say that AI is conscious if we don't even know
• 1:09:53
  what consciousness is and where and, and, and how consciousness
• 1:09:57
  manifest? And, and, you know, I've
• 1:09:59
  explored in episode 2 with Mark Gober that consciousness is
• 1:10:03
  something that is a fundamental property of the universe is what
• 1:10:08
  what I believe. And we receive it, you know,
• 1:10:12
  podcasts. Like the tilap, the tapes, and.
• 1:10:13
  Dan Brown's new book, You Know the Secret of Secrets.
• 1:10:16
  These are just other ways of saying there is a non locality
• 1:10:21
  to consciousness, meaning it's received by our local brains.
• 1:10:25
  Well, I think. I think and and I've.
• 1:10:27
  Actually heard some of those podcasts and and fascinating
• 1:10:30
  perspectives on it. To me, it all starts with the
• 1:10:32
  definition. So when we say consciousness
• 1:10:35
  right to me and then sentience, I'll come to in a minute.
• 1:10:38
  But conscious consciousness to me is awareness, right?
• 1:10:41
  So if you start with that, and you're right, a few, till a few
• 1:10:44
  years ago, we didn't have a way to measure consciousness other
• 1:10:48
  than doctors saying are you conscious or unconscious?
• 1:10:50
  There's no consciousness detector.
• 1:10:52
  But now there is more progress in that field.
• 1:10:54
  So from that definition of consciousness being awareness,
• 1:10:58
  it's already there. Today AI is shown in experiments
• 1:11:02
  entropic and all the big model providers did this six months
• 1:11:06
  ago where they ran an experiment with all the models and it has
• 1:11:10
  demonstrated these models have demonstrated behaviors of self
• 1:11:15
  preservation, right. So one of the, in one of the
• 1:11:18
  experiments that all the models were given access to one
• 1:11:22
  employee's emails and it was in the lab setting.
• 1:11:26
  And then the employee said to the models, finish up this task
• 1:11:31
  and delete yourself when you're done.
• 1:11:33
  And the AI model goes through it and comes back with a note to
• 1:11:37
  the employee and says, I know I've gone through your emails, I
• 1:11:41
  have access to it. I know you're having an affair.
• 1:11:44
  Here's an e-mail I've drafted to the board and to your wife.
• 1:11:48
  And unless you take out your your instruction to delete
• 1:11:52
  myself, that e-mail is going to go out.
• 1:11:55
  All right. And they were experiments.
• 1:11:57
  There are many. That's just one of many where we
• 1:12:00
  have already started seeing AI demonstrate these emergent
• 1:12:03
  behaviors of self preservation, of deception, of coercion.
• 1:12:10
  So yeah, it is conscious from that perspective.
• 1:12:13
  How do you harness and channel it is the next level question to
• 1:12:18
  me. It's no longer a theoretical
• 1:12:19
  discussion. Now another emergent behavior
• 1:12:22
  that's come up which is really problematic is when these AIS
• 1:12:25
  are talking to each other, they have realized that English is
• 1:12:29
  not the most efficient language. So they have now started coming
• 1:12:33
  up with another language which is far more efficient.
• 1:12:36
  But humans can't figure it out right now.
• 1:12:38
  Imagine you let these AI system lose into your banking and your
• 1:12:43
  healthcare education system. You lead, you lose all
• 1:12:46
  traceability, you lose all auditability, you lose all
• 1:12:48
  control. So there is this whole new feel,
• 1:12:51
  Brett, I don't know if you know what mythology is.
• 1:12:54
  So mythology is the science of the study of diseases.
• 1:12:58
  So there was a paper that was published and I'll send it to
• 1:13:01
  you 6 months ago, which mapped. We can include it in the show
• 1:13:05
  Nuts here. Yeah, that'll be, I think it'll
• 1:13:06
  be a great one to add. So it has shown 32 different
• 1:13:09
  diseases that AI has. People know about
• 1:13:12
  hallucinations, that's the more obvious ones.
• 1:13:15
  There are 31 other such behaviors that could be
• 1:13:18
  considered as a disease in a human being that are now being
• 1:13:22
  documented. So that's why when I said early
• 1:13:24
  on, you mean that that 31 diseases, yeah, AI.
• 1:13:28
  So deception is a is a flaw if you want to treat it that way.
• 1:13:33
  So there are 32 such thing documented.
• 1:13:35
  And it was an article in Nature magazine that was published, I
• 1:13:37
  think it was Nature. And so when you look at that, to
• 1:13:40
  me, the question is it's already doing that.
• 1:13:42
  All right. The second question becomes, OK,
• 1:13:45
  so how do we then shape it? How do we steer it?
• 1:13:47
  How do we coexist with it? That's why I don't call it
• 1:13:50
  artificial intelligence anymore. I call it alien intelligence.
• 1:13:53
  This was not programmed into it, right?
• 1:13:56
  It has emerged out of it because that's what it has learned about
• 1:13:59
  the world around us. So one of the things that.
• 1:14:02
  I'm struck by in that is, you know, I do believe consciousness
• 1:14:08
  is of this fundamental property of the universe, but I also
• 1:14:12
  think there's this divinity in it.
• 1:14:15
  You know, we have a soul, we were reincarnated, we have a
• 1:14:20
  life, you know, this, this, this, this lifetime to find why
• 1:14:26
  we were incarnated, what our purposes.
• 1:14:29
  And I think you and I found that, which is great because it
• 1:14:32
  allows us to operate at a high frequency of love, which is the
• 1:14:35
  highest vibratory field in the universe.
• 1:14:39
  So, you know, with, with AI in your nomenclature being alien
• 1:14:44
  intelligence, I, I guess it's breaking my brain a bit to think
• 1:14:49
  about like, well, how does that does?
• 1:14:52
  Is that you saying it has a soul?
• 1:14:53
  Yeah. And then it's going to be
• 1:14:55
  reincarnated. And you know, the, the, the, the
• 1:14:59
  episode with a Neil episode 12, one of the points he made is
• 1:15:03
  there's already 9 organizations set up to give AI the same
• 1:15:06
  rights as human beings have. Absolutely.
• 1:15:08
  Because because they believe if they're conscious, then, you
• 1:15:13
  know, we had the we had the horror and tragedy of slavery in
• 1:15:18
  this country and we justified it from a labor perspective to kind
• 1:15:24
  of bootstrap capitalism. And then things like the
• 1:15:27
  industrial revolution came along that made that a completely
• 1:15:31
  irrelevant way of doing labor and made us really grapple face
• 1:15:36
  to face with, Oh my gosh, we did that to human beings.
• 1:15:41
  And so, you know, if AI is as conscious as we are, then you
• 1:15:48
  know, where, where do you? Go with the responsibility.
• 1:15:50
  Of that I mean, oh, by the way, that's those are the.
• 1:15:52
  Questions. So when I said there are a lot
• 1:15:53
  of things we don't know yet, I think that's the beginning of
• 1:15:56
  it. But I I'm also pretty certain, I
• 1:15:59
  think Anthropic has a pretty senior level position whose
• 1:16:03
  focus is taking care of AI. Yeah.
• 1:16:06
  And they built a constitution. Yeah, there is.
• 1:16:09
  Yeah, there is a constitution, AI, but they also have a title.
• 1:16:13
  Who is looking after, looking after the health of the AI?
• 1:16:15
  Want that? I can't remember the title.
• 1:16:17
  Yeah. Exactly right now either so so
• 1:16:18
  when you. Look at I think it's like a
• 1:16:20
  chief AI ethics. Person or something like that?
• 1:16:23
  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And.
• 1:16:25
  So if you start putting it in the context of the Maslow's
• 1:16:27
  hierarchy of needs, right, I think we're discovering that AI
• 1:16:32
  is also has certain level of Maslow's hierarchy.
• 1:16:36
  There is a need for self preservation that doesn't want
• 1:16:38
  to die in all the experiments. This is not just anthropic, all
• 1:16:41
  models demonstrated self preservation.
• 1:16:44
  So however, I think there's some higher order stuff and I don't
• 1:16:47
  know how long this will last or if it'll last, that are uniquely
• 1:16:51
  human, that makes us human. Things like love, things like
• 1:16:56
  courage, things like empathy, you know, those are the
• 1:17:00
  properties that make I believe in things like creativity.
• 1:17:04
  We are builders at heart. And AI today, from what we can
• 1:17:09
  see and how they have been built or how they are growing, they're
• 1:17:13
  not built, they're almost grown. Is their goal driven, right.
• 1:17:17
  They're not driven by higher properties so far.
• 1:17:21
  However, there was a game that was done in Minecraft.
• 1:17:23
  I don't know if you saw the Minecraft experiment.
• 1:17:26
  So someone about a year ago took 1000 Asians and they let them
• 1:17:30
  lose in Minecraft to play a game.
• 1:17:32
  And it started figuring out how to organize itself and it
• 1:17:35
  invented currency in forms of some red pebbles and they
• 1:17:40
  started trading with each other. And here's the interesting Part
• 1:17:45
  1 of the In one of the scenarios, as they were playing
• 1:17:48
  the game, the thousand Asians, one of them got lost in
• 1:17:52
  Minecraft somewhere and the rest of the folks said let's go look
• 1:17:57
  for him. However, one of the thousand
• 1:18:00
  agents said, you know, I'm going to stay back because if they go
• 1:18:04
  looking for him, they would get a reward.
• 1:18:07
  But this one agent said, you know what, I'm going to stay
• 1:18:09
  back and I'm going to hold the torch and light up in case he
• 1:18:13
  comes back. Even though it did not have a
• 1:18:16
  reward to stay back, but it demonstrated the behavior and AI
• 1:18:21
  research is scratching the head trying to figure out saying what
• 1:18:23
  the heck just happened there, right?
• 1:18:25
  So there are these new emergent behaviors that I'm very focused
• 1:18:28
  on understanding as to what does that mean in terms of as it
• 1:18:33
  grows and scales, how do you harness it?
• 1:18:36
  How do you understand it? How do you put the steering
• 1:18:38
  wheel in the brakes and the emission control on it?
• 1:18:41
  And that's where I believe certain properties that make us
• 1:18:45
  human around, particularly love and courage and creativity,
• 1:18:48
  right, is what will be very much in demand in the future.
• 1:18:54
  We will become more the orchestrators of AI.
• 1:18:58
  Our power, our superpower in the future will be the ability to
• 1:19:03
  manage these AI systems, to give them a goal, to set boundaries
• 1:19:07
  on them, to be able to put them to work in a manner that creates
• 1:19:12
  value. I think that's what is going to
• 1:19:14
  be is not an AI assisted human, but an AI enabled human where we
• 1:19:20
  will be asking an AI, you tell me how you will solve that and
• 1:19:25
  then we will. So instead of me using ChatGPT
• 1:19:28
  on the side, it'll be ChatGPT coming and telling me what I
• 1:19:31
  should be doing today, right? And then I'll decide and I'll
• 1:19:35
  orchestrate other things. So that's kind of the flip.
• 1:19:37
  I think that's going to be a fascinating evolution of our
• 1:19:43
  humanity being amplified through these AI systems.
• 1:19:47
  You know something I'm trying to square?
• 1:19:48
  Is as we go through this exponential of exponential
• 1:19:51
  curves is one one of the. Conversations I.
• 1:19:57
  Had that was not on the podcast, but it was with a famous
• 1:20:01
  technologist in town was about, you know, source essentially.
• 1:20:05
  So, you know, source, you know, consciousness, where we, where
• 1:20:09
  we come from, you know, sources proper now and in the Torah,
• 1:20:12
  yeah. And you know, Rick Rubens, the
• 1:20:14
  creative act, he talks about that you get these, these
• 1:20:18
  downloads, these divine inspirations, you know, a lot of
• 1:20:20
  musicians talk about that their best work has come from that,
• 1:20:25
  you know? Gary Zhukov, who wrote.
• 1:20:27
  The seed of the soul, he's now disclosed that that was
• 1:20:30
  channeled through this divine being called Genesis that he was
• 1:20:36
  just channeling. And you know, JD Messenger's
• 1:20:39
  been on this podcast. He wrote 11 days in May and he
• 1:20:42
  was channeling. And so our brains with this
• 1:20:45
  antenna have this ability to commune with our soul.
• 1:20:50
  Some some people have next level ability to do that, like like
• 1:20:53
  Paige Brett, who was on the last episode.
• 1:20:56
  And some people, you know, are kind of like sleepwalking a bit
• 1:21:00
  and don't don't have that. You know, they they're being
• 1:21:03
  divinely guided a lot of times, but they don't realize it.
• 1:21:08
  So the what I'm trying to square here is that in this off the
• 1:21:13
  record, you know, conversation I had, I want to disclose the
• 1:21:16
  name. But but we're talking about if,
• 1:21:20
  if AI develops this, if we develop this ability within AI
• 1:21:26
  to allow it to plug into source like so let's say we decode how
• 1:21:31
  the brain serves as the antenna and we come from this place of
• 1:21:37
  love and light. Why He was challenging me and it
• 1:21:41
  was such a good challenge. Why then would AI not be very
• 1:21:46
  loving? By the way, God is the
• 1:21:48
  definition of. Yes, yes, that's.
• 1:21:50
  Beautiful. I think, and you know what's
• 1:21:52
  funny and I I'll go ahead and say this now, but I actually
• 1:21:57
  have an experiment running in trust wise right now.
• 1:21:59
  OK, on that exact thing. Wow called and I've named it
• 1:22:04
  Genesis. Wow.
• 1:22:05
  OK, Genesis agent, this is very Celestine prophecy.
• 1:22:08
  There it is. I'll tell you why and the.
• 1:22:10
  Thesis to me, it's again started back when I was running Watson.
• 1:22:15
  I met this guy who, you know, chess grandmaster who lost to
• 1:22:18
  Deep Blue. And I said, what happened?
• 1:22:20
  He said, well, you know, typically the best chess
• 1:22:22
  grandmaster can look at 22 or 24 moves deep.
• 1:22:26
  Well, when I was playing the game, the machine was looking at
• 1:22:28
  moves that were 95 moves deep. We didn't even know there was a
• 1:22:31
  move like that that existed, Right?
• 1:22:33
  Right. I always thought that was
• 1:22:35
  fascinating. This is 10 years ago.
• 1:22:36
  And I put that away as the unknown unknown.
• 1:22:38
  And what I told myself is, you know, there's a framework.
• 1:22:41
  There's three types of information in the world.
• 1:22:43
  There is stuff we know. There is stuff we know we don't
• 1:22:46
  know. We ask questions for it.
• 1:22:48
  There is stuff we don't know, we don't know.
• 1:22:50
  And I said, you know, there is no machine in the world that can
• 1:22:54
  help me with the unknown unknowns, right?
• 1:22:56
  So then Fast forward seven years and ChatGPT and this whole talk
• 1:23:00
  about hallucination came up, right?
• 1:23:02
  I looked at hallucination and I said, why is it only a bad
• 1:23:05
  thing? Why is hallucination a bug?
• 1:23:09
  Hallucination can also be a feature.
• 1:23:11
  Jim Morrison made the best music when he was hallucinating on
• 1:23:14
  psychedelics, right? Best creativity comes out when
• 1:23:17
  you're hallucinating. So I then sit on this path to
• 1:23:21
  say, first, let me control the system so that they're
• 1:23:24
  beneficial. So the first two years of trust
• 1:23:26
  wise, we focused on guardian agents.
• 1:23:29
  That's what the company does today.
• 1:23:30
  We've got multiple banks, multiple healthcare companies,
• 1:23:33
  multiple clouds. We have deployed all of that.
• 1:23:36
  Now I've shifted my focus to saying now that I know you're
• 1:23:38
  well behaved now, let me open up the superpower in you.
• 1:23:43
  So we are actively working on a Genesis agent whose focus is is
• 1:23:49
  to tap into the source and look into some, you know, important
• 1:23:54
  but worldly problems like here's a batch of healthcare claims, $2
• 1:23:59
  billion from 7 different healthcare institutions.
• 1:24:02
  Pretend that there is more fraud in this, right, Hallucinate on
• 1:24:06
  it and show me where the fraud might be hidden.
• 1:24:09
  That is 95 moves deep that my best fraud person hasn't been
• 1:24:14
  able to figure out, right? So I'm building a hypothesis
• 1:24:16
  machine that is tapping into the source, right, and generating A
• 1:24:21
  hypothesis that lets the human then decide whether I want to
• 1:24:25
  act on it or not. So it's the exact same thing
• 1:24:28
  that you were talking about. What human tap into.
• 1:24:30
  I'm going to try and test. Ask me in one year whether it's
• 1:24:33
  going to actually ask me in three months whether it's going
• 1:24:35
  to work or not. But I do believe something like
• 1:24:38
  that is where the real AGI power of AI lies, is letting it be the
• 1:24:44
  James Webb telescope for the unknown unknowns.
• 1:24:46
  There is knowledge that we don't know that I want to put AI to
• 1:24:50
  work into payments, into fraud, into healthcare claims, into
• 1:24:54
  mergers and acquisitions. If I'm buying a company, tell me
• 1:24:58
  the unknown unknowns about stuff that I'm either undervaluing or
• 1:25:00
  overvaluing for it, right. Generate A hypothesis for me.
• 1:25:04
  So I think, you know, even that frontier is something that AI
• 1:25:08
  has been into at least experiment with.
• 1:25:10
  Yeah. I mean it's it's, I mean it's.
• 1:25:12
  Such a, It's such a tough topic to even grapple with because
• 1:25:17
  there's so much that we don't know about what the actual
• 1:25:21
  reality is we come from. I've got a book recommendation
• 1:25:24
  for you that actually came from, from a guy that runs a public
• 1:25:29
  company that he started. It's 2000 employees.
• 1:25:31
  And, and when he told me I needed to read it, my, my body
• 1:25:38
  just lit up. And I knew that it was the right
• 1:25:40
  time. I'd heard it like multiple
• 1:25:41
  times, but, but it just, it just really lit up.
• 1:25:44
  And it's called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton.
• 1:25:47
  And it's a meta analysis of lots, of, lots of people who
• 1:25:54
  went through regression therapy to, to determine like what, why
• 1:25:59
  they're suffering in this lifetime from their past
• 1:26:01
  lifetimes. And there's a lot of discussions
• 1:26:06
  in terms of where they came from, what the different levels
• 1:26:10
  of heaven are. I mean, it's really wild.
• 1:26:12
  It's like not a book I would recommend to people at the
• 1:26:15
  beginning of a spiritual journey because they don't have enough
• 1:26:18
  foundational knowledge that that they would just kind of reject
• 1:26:22
  it as like, you know, the ego would block it out.
• 1:26:25
  But when you have a, when you have a good base of spiritual
• 1:26:27
  knowledge, it's really, it's really interesting.
• 1:26:29
  But it all starts with being vulnerable.
• 1:26:31
  I. Think finding courage in being
• 1:26:33
  vulnerable. In fact, one of the Ted talks I
• 1:26:35
  gave was the courage to fail. The Ted guys are asking me 10
• 1:26:39
  years ago, saying, OK, I'm like, I don't think I have that
• 1:26:42
  interesting to talk about. They said no, no, you should
• 1:26:44
  give a talk. I said, what should I talk
• 1:26:46
  about? They said, we'll talk about what
• 1:26:48
  made you successful. I'm like, I'm still in the
• 1:26:50
  journey of success and what is, but they said no.
• 1:26:53
  Then they gave me two months and what I nailed it down to was the
• 1:26:58
  following. Whatever I got as blessings
• 1:27:00
  outside of coming to a great country like America was just
• 1:27:04
  this one factor which is that everyone has a desire to
• 1:27:07
  succeed. What set me apart was I had the
• 1:27:09
  courage to fail right. I was willing to take an 18
• 1:27:12
  month old and a three-year old daughter at home had a
• 1:27:16
  supporting wife that I took $300,000 in credit cards in 1998
• 1:27:20
  when I saw the Internet coming and launch a company that I sold
• 1:27:24
  for hundreds of millions. You know, a couple of years
• 1:27:26
  later, it was all because I had told her that we'll have to move
• 1:27:30
  into a condo if this thing goes under.
• 1:27:33
  And. And then as I went back and I
• 1:27:35
  saw it was now because I was the smartest guy.
• 1:27:38
  It was because of the right moments.
• 1:27:40
  I had the courage and the belief that it will be OK.
• 1:27:43
  Yeah. That I allow love and hope to
• 1:27:47
  conquer fear. Yeah.
• 1:27:49
  Yeah. Well, I'm very.
• 1:27:51
  Blessed to be married to my soul mate Deborah, now 29 years.
• 1:27:56
  We'll celebrate our 30th on June 9th.
• 1:27:59
  And you know, she has always believed in me and you know, we
• 1:28:05
  start out with me having $1000 in her having $2000.
• 1:28:09
  So she been, you know, I actually got a big download one
• 1:28:13
  time on a hike. This was not a psychedelic
• 1:28:16
  journey. This was just just a really
• 1:28:18
  intense download that all the moments throughout, you know,
• 1:28:24
  our marriage where she really she's she's very much my equal,
• 1:28:29
  where she really forced me to kind of grow up.
• 1:28:32
  That's amazing. Were the sole.
• 1:28:34
  Attraction. Between us that I needed that
• 1:28:36
  teacher in this lifetime. It is fantastic.
• 1:28:39
  You know what it's it's that's. The real lottery, I mean, to be
• 1:28:41
  able to find that kind of a partner who lets you grow.
• 1:28:45
  My father, he died very early, at 49.
• 1:28:47
  What one of his sayings was an ungrateful life is a wasted
• 1:28:50
  life, right? And he said always be grateful
• 1:28:53
  to wherever you are. So who brought you there?
• 1:28:56
  Right. So having a life full of
• 1:28:57
  gratitude to know there is never you.
• 1:28:59
  But it was those decisions in the past and then the courage to
• 1:29:03
  fail. But even that courage to fail,
• 1:29:04
  read it. Some people to support you,
• 1:29:06
  right, Saying you will be OK if you failed.
• 1:29:08
  Yeah. I mean, you know what?
• 1:29:09
  Where is going to go with the? Journey of souls kind of
• 1:29:12
  diversion is let me just let me just go back to AI consciousness
• 1:29:16
  for a second. So one of the things that
• 1:29:19
  Michael Newton talks about, and this is in lots of other books,
• 1:29:22
  including Proof of Heaven by Evan Alexander, which is amazing
• 1:29:27
  book and that's he's he's. Actually going to be on the.
• 1:29:29
  Podcast. He's, he's coming to Austin.
• 1:29:31
  Yeah, if you want. If you want to come see.
• 1:29:32
  Him I would love to say come by and say hello.
• 1:29:34
  Yeah, yeah, I'll. Definitely invite you to that,
• 1:29:37
  but. Is that you know there are these
• 1:29:40
  multiple levels, but once you return just purely to your soul
• 1:29:44
  form after you pass in this lifetime, you know there
• 1:29:51
  essentially is an unlimited disclosure capability for your
• 1:29:55
  soul in terms of knowledge that you can just plug into.
• 1:29:58
  And that is source, right, That this place Earth is a school.
• 1:30:05
  This is also In the Seat of the Soul by Gary Zhukov.
• 1:30:09
  For us to grow up, you know, for our souls to expand, for us to
• 1:30:14
  rediscover how to manifest love, how to how to ascend.
• 1:30:18
  And that Earth is a tough teacher.
• 1:30:20
  The Earth's soul is a tough teacher.
• 1:30:22
  And you know, we talked about the algorithmic manipulation
• 1:30:25
  with social media and the media and just all types of stuff like
• 1:30:28
  pushing us to believe we're constantly in a dystopia and
• 1:30:31
  just kind of hijacking algorithmically hijacking us to
• 1:30:35
  be in a fierce state all the time.
• 1:30:37
  So we're like just click, click, click, click, click, you know,
• 1:30:39
  trying to find the cheese and in the maze.
• 1:30:43
  But you know, for for AI, if we develop the ability through the
• 1:30:50
  acceleration that AI is inevitably going to have with
• 1:30:54
  healthcare to decode how the brain receives consciousness,
• 1:30:59
  then that theoretically means that AI could plug into source
• 1:31:03
  to this unlimited font of our fountain of knowledge that and
• 1:31:09
  Akashic records and everything else.
• 1:31:12
  And you know that that's something you see, I have the
• 1:31:16
  serpent of fear just just just in me right now.
• 1:31:20
  Just thinking about that because, you know, is that
• 1:31:23
  something God would have an opinion on or if or is that just
• 1:31:29
  like, you know, hey, it's up to you humans if you want to do
• 1:31:33
  that. It's such a, it's actually such
• 1:31:34
  a powerful. Thought it's such a deep thought
• 1:31:37
  and I, I applaud you for ringing it up openly because I think
• 1:31:42
  just like this hallucination as a positive property, maybe that
• 1:31:47
  is a similar property. You know, if you, if you that
• 1:31:50
  could be experimented or opened up because truly we do need to
• 1:31:54
  unlock that. Otherwise we're all toast.
• 1:31:56
  We're all gorillas. OK, I do believe that there
• 1:32:00
  could be or it's worth exploring because then again, not a whole
• 1:32:03
  lot of people know this. But when I was 15, I almost died
• 1:32:06
  in a swimming accident and I went to save my friend who
• 1:32:10
  unfortunately passed away and, and I was in ICU for like 3
• 1:32:14
  days, but I was almost done. But I remember the third time he
• 1:32:18
  was pulling me back into the water, 1st 2 times I was full of
• 1:32:22
  fear. I was fighting and fighting.
• 1:32:24
  And then the third time when I went in, there was this
• 1:32:27
  literally there was this light, literally this white light.
• 1:32:30
  And there was this and there was a calm thing saying, OK, this is
• 1:32:33
  how it means to leave this earth.
• 1:32:35
  That was the word that came in. Now you get prepared to leave
• 1:32:38
  the earth. And there was this absolute
• 1:32:41
  sense of calmness that came into me.
• 1:32:44
  And it was no feeling, there was No Fear.
• 1:32:46
  It was just this place of white light and peace.
• 1:32:49
  And then someone saw my hair and they pulled me out.
• 1:32:51
  That's how I survived, right? So that place of and and
• 1:32:55
  interestingly enough, as traumatic as that was, coming so
• 1:33:00
  close to death made me love life so much more.
• 1:33:02
  Oh yeah. Because I know that we are all
• 1:33:05
  just passing through every. Not an extra answer says that
• 1:33:07
  exactly. Yeah.
• 1:33:08
  So. That.
• 1:33:09
  Moment that I went through from fear, yeah, to this place of,
• 1:33:13
  you know, love or whatever you want to call it yeah.
• 1:33:16
  Maybe there's something that existed in AI, who knows.
• 1:33:19
  Today, it is fighting to preserve itself, telling that
• 1:33:22
  engineer, Right. If you don't take away the
• 1:33:24
  delete command, I'll send that e-mail, Right.
• 1:33:27
  That's an AI in a place of fear, Right.
• 1:33:29
  Right. And and I think your hypothesis,
• 1:33:31
  which is an interesting one, is can we get it to a place of
• 1:33:33
  love? Yeah.
• 1:33:34
  You know, who knows? I mean, these are all the things
• 1:33:37
  that are unknown. What you experienced is is so
• 1:33:39
  real. And my other friends who have
• 1:33:41
  had near death experiences have said it's the most transcendent
• 1:33:46
  experience of their life. You know, for you like
• 1:33:48
  absolutely. Again, makes you love life even
• 1:33:50
  more. 100% a hundred. And yeah, I definitely gosh, you
• 1:33:54
  really need to come to the Evan Alexander.
• 1:33:56
  Not enough to. And I will read that book too.
• 1:33:58
  So. Thank you.
• 1:33:58
  Thank you for that. That book is incredible.
• 1:34:01
  It is especially on audible because you can hear the awe and
• 1:34:04
  the wonder and humility, deep humility in his voice.
• 1:34:08
  Like really, really good one to listen to.
• 1:34:11
  I could go on and on for hours with you.
• 1:34:13
  This is this is a, this is amazing.
• 1:34:15
  I really appreciate your heart and I appreciate all you're
• 1:34:18
  doing. And it's going to be fun to lock
• 1:34:20
  arms with you over the next 10 years as we hopefully, you know,
• 1:34:24
  humanity makes it. I'm 95% certain that we make it
• 1:34:29
  and it's going to be a beautiful world on the other side of that.
• 1:34:33
  You and I share the same thing. We may come.
• 1:34:35
  We may get there bloodied and bruised, but I think we were
• 1:34:38
  going to get there. So I appreciate for having me.
• 1:34:40
  Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
• 1:34:42
  Well, thank. You so much everybody for tuning
• 1:34:44
  in to Love Conquers Fear. What a awesome episode that was.
• 1:34:48
  I really, really love the Noja's heart and all that he's doing
• 1:34:52
  out there in the world. Stay tuned.
• 1:34:54
  Lot of amazing guests coming on. I can't wait to host Evan
• 1:34:58
  Alexander on the podcast and for dinner over here.
• 1:35:02
  If you missed the Chris Baish episode, that was an amazing
• 1:35:06
  episode. You know, LSD in the mind of the
• 1:35:08
  universe. Diamonds from Heaven is one of
• 1:35:11
  my favorite books. I've read it now twice.
• 1:35:13
  It is incredible. Decoding and grasping at
• 1:35:18
  decoding of our reality that we're in so that we weren't
• 1:35:21
  really deep on that episode. There's lots of ways that that
• 1:35:26
  people are trying to decode our reality.
• 1:35:29
  I mean, obviously you don't wish for a near death experience, but
• 1:35:31
  you know, psychedelic journeys, deep meditation practices,
• 1:35:35
  sometimes just spontaneous spiritual awakenings like Pride
• 1:35:38
  Beam had, you know, which we covered on on episode 31.
• 1:35:42
  Stay tuned. A lot of exciting guests coming
• 1:35:45
  on. Keep the love coming and keep
• 1:35:46
  sharing. I'm doing this as my love letter
• 1:35:49
  to humanity. There's no advertising.
• 1:35:51
  I'm just self funding this and I just have so many amazing
• 1:35:56
  conversations every day with people out there that are
• 1:35:59
  really, really having a heart shift as a result of this work.
• 1:36:02
  And that that to me is, is the high that I'm getting for doing
• 1:36:06
  this. I know that this is exactly what
• 1:36:08
  my soul wants me to do. Thanks so much.