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Back to Basics · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan, this is my Coho Zhangjun.
0:04
Hello who also goes by Sam and we're the Co founders of Sanko
0:08
Matcha products. We launched this podcast to
0:10
discuss our learning journey much share startup stories and
0:13
interview experts. Ryan from the Future here.
0:16
Apologies for the late release. The whole team is actually in
0:20
Kyoso Prefecture participating in some hand picking and meeting
0:26
with farmers and some other industry people that are here
0:28
for the 2025 harvest. So we have some exciting content
0:32
coming down the pipeline and enjoy this episode.
0:36
And before today's episode, Ryan sent me some very unfortunate
0:39
photos of his encounterment in London of drinking some very
0:45
interesting matcha. So what was it wrong?
0:48
Can you describe those in detail since we cannot share photos?
0:51
Yeah, no, this, the scene overall was quite interesting
0:54
and kind of disappointing and kind of extra ironic considering
0:58
the impact that the UK has had on tea culture in general and
1:04
how it's a a culture that has historically cared a lot about
1:07
tea and tea quality. And the way that much is being
1:09
served there was actually kind of shocking.
1:12
I kind of went in with low expectations because I think the
1:15
way Matcha is being treated in the average Western Cafe is
1:19
pretty bad. And so I was expecting something
1:21
kind of a step above that. But I was pretty disappointed
1:24
and it prompted quite a bit of thinking, especially because
1:28
over half I visited 4 cafes, I think 3 out of the four where
1:33
Japanese operated and where the people behind the counter were
1:36
Japanese and speaking Japanese to themselves, which made it
1:39
even more surprising. OK.
1:43
That's that's interesting. So it so it was Japanese people
1:47
who are the staff and operating the host.
1:49
At a lot of these, at a lot of these places and the sequence
1:54
that I did, and by no means could we call this like the
1:57
status quo of matcha in London or the London matcha scene.
2:01
You know, 4 is not enough. And I'm also not going to give
2:05
away the names, at least not on this podcast.
2:07
I posted them to my personal stories, which thankfully is
2:10
impermanent because, you know, it's unfair to judge somewhat
2:14
somewhere where you've only been once, especially when, you know,
2:19
businesses can change and improve over time.
2:21
So we don't want to call anyone out.
2:23
But I do think there's a lot of learnings for the whole industry
2:25
about what we were encountering there and things that we can
2:28
improve upon. And Zheng Jin, you and I just
2:30
recorded an episode on why matcha is so bad at cafes.
2:36
And we had recorded that like a week before I went on this
2:38
weekend trip to London. And it feels extra prescient now
2:43
after recording that. And in some ways this episode I
2:46
kind of want to be Part 2 of why is matcha so bad at cafes and
2:52
what can cafes do to raise matcha quality?
2:55
So for these cafes that you have been to in London, what are some
3:01
of the things that really stands out to you and are coherent
3:06
between cafes? Yeah.
3:08
So let's set the scene a little bit.
3:10
Three out of the four places that I went were Matcha
3:12
specialty shops. Like Matcha was either in the
3:15
name or it was some Japanese name.
3:18
And it was a, they was a company that specifically focused on
3:22
Japanese tea. And the other was a Japanese
3:25
style pastry shop, which I had heard had a very good matcha
3:28
program. And thank you, by the way, to
3:30
the listeners who live in the UK or in London who gave me
3:34
recommendations. And so I asked three different
3:36
people for recommendations and kind of chose the one that were
3:40
overlapping on a lot of people's lists.
3:42
And one of them was a Japanese bakery, which has supposed to
3:45
have a very good matcha program. So that's sort of the scene from
3:49
a consumer experience, just being a consumer walking in
3:53
objectively, you know, everything tastes pretty bad.
3:56
The one caveat I will say is that I was shocked by the price.
4:01
You can get an A matcha Americano or a matcha latte
4:04
beverage in London. The price range was anywhere
4:09
from 3:50 to 7 lbs, which is way cheaper than I was anticipating
4:17
considering matcha prices both in Paris and in places like New
4:21
York where I have a lot more consumer experience.
4:24
So they're really targeting a price point that could be
4:27
somebody's sort of everyday cup of coffee, so to speak.
4:30
Interesting. 3 British pounds. That's close to four U.S.
4:35
dollar. Yeah, about four U.S. dollars.
4:37
OK. OK.
4:38
That's not bad at all. It's like actually cheaper than
4:41
some of the much Americano that I've seen even in Shanghai in
4:45
China. Wow.
4:49
It's not bad. So across all of these different
4:51
places, it was actually a pretty unique set because the way they
4:53
prepared matcha was so different.
4:55
At one place they were measuring everything to order hot,
4:58
whisking it in a bowl and dumping it in a cup.
5:01
So like what we would consider like pretty normal preparation.
5:04
One place we're using those electric vibrating frother
5:08
things in a setup that looks very similar to Chacha matcha.
5:12
If anyone's been to one of their locations in New York or LA, the
5:16
the behind the bar service experience looks pretty
5:18
identical. And then a place that was using
5:21
syrups where they were had a pre made matcha mix and we're
5:26
dumping that either into hot water for an Americano or into
5:29
milk or some various syrups for some of the specialty drinks.
5:32
So seeing all of that and then tasting all of that, there was a
5:35
really large range of issues that I experienced.
5:39
I had super clumpy matcha. I had matcha that had no foam on
5:44
it. That was this murky lake color
5:46
and pretty tasteless. That was actually the least
5:49
worst that I had was the one with no foam at the Japanese
5:54
patisserie. It wasn't that bitter and it
5:57
didn't really taste like anything, which we actually
5:59
ended up being kind of a good thing.
6:00
I had a broken bamboo tine in one of them and one of them did
6:06
have some foam but just tasted objectively horrible.
6:09
This one was from from the concentrate and where they just
6:12
dump it into some hot water, which I consider that to be the
6:15
least intentional way of preparing matcha, let's say.
6:19
Definitely the fastest. That was actually pretty
6:21
incredible. I ordered it and I had my drink
6:22
about 15 seconds later. So I kind of I understand why
6:26
they do that. You kind of see that technique
6:28
in a lot of these high volume cafes, like a lot of these chain
6:32
cafes use that technique to compensate for, you know, really
6:37
high bargain consumers. Yeah, and there might be a way
6:41
to do it. Well, I've had some that are not
6:43
bad. In Paris, there was a cafe that
6:45
was doing it was serving Rocky's matcha, and that's how they
6:48
served it. But unfortunately, my experience
6:51
was less than stellar. They pulled out a large water
6:53
pitcher that was about a gallon or about 3 liters, and it was
6:57
only had 1/3 remaining, so it was 2/3 empty.
7:01
The matcha had settled to the bottom.
7:03
I was clearly the first person ordering this.
7:06
They kind of gave it a light like swirl, but not really.
7:10
I could tell there was still a lot of matcha still on the
7:12
bottom. And they measured into a
7:14
cocktail jigger and dumped it in a glass of ice water for the
7:17
iced Americano. And it was not offensive.
7:20
It was on offensive from a sensory perspective.
7:22
Like it tasted fine, actually tasted kind of decent, but it
7:26
was by no means exceptional. Like it was when I was paying
7:29
€6. I was really expecting a little
7:32
more care, especially for a place that didn't even have a
7:34
line when I walked in. So that was kind of
7:36
disappointing. I understand why they do it, and
7:39
I think for a latte, when you're missing a lot of subtlety and
7:41
nuance, that's getting when you're using much as an
7:44
ingredient, maybe it can also work there.
7:46
But within the context of an Americano boy, the one that I
7:49
had in London, it tasted like really low quality nori or
7:54
seaweed. It was very bitter, astringent,
7:57
completely empty and at the same time like tasteless.
8:01
Other than those notes, all of the sensory expression would be
8:05
what I would call like negative attributes.
8:07
Other than the green color, there was this very few things
8:10
to rave about that product when it was consumed on its own.
8:14
So that was very bad. It was very bad.
8:16
Anything good that you have experienced in these places?
8:20
Well, the best thing that I noticed is the demand.
8:24
Oh my word, I had to wait 20 minutes in line for one of these
8:26
places. Every place was busy, full of
8:28
people. People love matcha and people
8:32
love this matcha, which is very strange to me knowing kind of
8:36
the flavors, expressions that are out there.
8:39
And it just makes me so optimistic.
8:41
If people are waiting 20 minutes for this, how long would they
8:45
wait and how much would they spend for a product that is much
8:49
higher quality, like the average quality that you would get in a
8:52
city like Bangkok for example, or even in Japan?
8:56
Also OK before I ask before I make this comment, are these
9:01
places like new or they have been around for for a lot I.
9:06
Think they're relatively new, all of the ones that I went to
9:09
OK. So my.
9:11
Comments. Multi generational, centuries
9:14
old institutions, relatively new businesses.
9:18
Sure, sure. But my comment is that this is
9:20
also probably a little worrying because there are probably where
9:24
a lot of first time matcha drinkers in all these places and
9:29
they probably end up trying it once and never come back because
9:34
you know, based on your description, a lot of these are
9:37
objectively not a good product. Wow, so here's where it plays
9:41
into a pretty negative stereotype around matcha lattes.
9:44
So thankfully I went with my girlfriend for this weekend
9:47
trip. She loves matcha lattes so I had
9:49
a perfect tasting experience where we got the same thing as
9:53
an americano and a latte. I really don't like drinking my
9:56
coffee or tea with milk, but I got to taste them side by side
10:01
and it in a latte format, especially if you're putting in
10:04
cherry syrup or sakura blossom syrup like everyone was doing
10:08
because it was spring or some of these others.
10:10
I think it's just like a nice sugary drink.
10:12
Like it's the same thing that like why everyone like likes
10:16
pumpkin spice lattes or vanilla lattes or you know, brown sugar
10:20
lattes. It's kind of a more mixed drink
10:23
fascination where I think people are like the color.
10:27
They like the fact that it's healthy, and it's in this big,
10:30
Milky, sugary drink that is a little easier to appreciate.
10:34
And the fascinating thing, Sam, every place I went to, everyone
10:40
warned me. Are you sure you want to get the
10:44
amacha Americano? Are you sure?
10:46
OK. Do you realize there's no sugar,
10:48
There's no milk. Are you sure it's just matcha?
10:51
There's matcha and water. Are you sure?
10:53
Interesting, so they they don't want you to consume it on its
10:56
own? No, and I'm sure they're
10:59
thinking, why is this guy ordering this?
11:02
Like no one orders this. This tastes disgusting.
11:04
That that was an interesting and actually I have a call to action
11:06
about that a little later on in the podcast.
11:09
Also, I I tried to have as much staff interaction as I could.
11:13
So I went to be like, Hey, where are you guys sourcing your
11:15
matcha from? How much matcha are you using?
11:18
And usually it ranged between 2G.
11:20
One of the place used 3 grams. It was actually interesting.
11:24
Most of them were two. One of them gave me 1.2g.
11:29
I felt like I was being cheated and I'll talk about that cafe in
11:33
a little bit. But then I would ask like,
11:34
where's the matcha from? Except for one place everywhere
11:37
said Japan. This matcha's from Japan and I
11:40
had to think about it, which was a little weird.
11:43
One of the places said Fukuoka, and I was like, OK, that's a
11:47
surprising answer. That was one of the Japanese run
11:49
places, and that was also the only place that was offering
11:53
single cultivar matcha. They had a much, much, much more
11:56
expensive Oku Midori they were selling, but you couldn't get it
12:00
in a drink. You could only buy it as powder.
12:02
I see. I see.
12:04
But I bet if I asked, I have little confidence that anyone
12:08
would have been able to explain anything about that product to
12:11
me just based on my interactions the current.
12:14
Scene for me is still a little bit far away from, you know what
12:18
we have been seeing in Bangkok, like a very professional single
12:22
origin focused matcha scene. It's still very much.
12:26
So it's. An extra bubble tea kind of
12:29
concept. Yeah, maybe not quite bubble
12:31
tea, but definitely more mixed drinks, mixed desserts.
12:34
They also sold matcha granola. They sold matcha croissants,
12:37
they sold matcha crepe cakes, They sold matcha sponge cakes.
12:40
Like it's matcha, matcha, matcha, matcha, matcha, matcha.
12:42
It's like it's like a theme store almost, which I honestly I
12:48
find quite strange. Like I kind of understand why
12:50
businesses do that, but imagine going into a coffee shop and
12:53
everything was coffee themed. It's just like it's a little
12:56
weird you. Know it's it's weird but it's
12:58
also not like consider a lot of these people probably were
13:02
getting introduced to matcha for the first time and this is like
13:05
a very nice showcase like education Cultural Center for
13:10
them to see the possibility of how much can be used as a flavor
13:15
that's my. Take true yeah, yeah, yeah
13:17
actually it's probably a good thing at this stage in the
13:19
market especially where there's less consumer education for what
13:22
is higher quality matcha, the concept of origin or cultivars
13:26
or processing or shading days and all the things that can
13:30
create a higher quality product are not known.
13:32
So having it be a more versatile ingredient with that type of
13:35
exposure, yeah, I agree it's probably a good thing.
13:38
But I would love to see a day when you can go in and have
13:41
something that actually pairs well with matcha.
13:44
I always find some of the like like pairings a bit annoying.
13:48
Like do you know what goes perfectly with the Smokey
13:51
whiskey? Like BBQ, another Smokey thing.
13:55
It's like very low level pairing ability.
13:59
It's like, you know what you want with your matcha latte?
14:02
You need matcha ice cream and a matcha cookie.
14:06
I understand why businesses do that right now.
14:09
And quite frankly, if we owned a cafe, we would probably do that
14:11
too. But like, when you go get a
14:14
coffee, you don't want a coffee like cake and a tiramisu And
14:19
like all of this. Maybe some people do, but like,
14:22
like, I don't know, like a cardamom bun goes really well
14:25
with a nice cup of coffee. Like, you can get it.
14:27
All of these Nordic roasters, like there's much more
14:31
thoughtful pairings. It's, it's my only complaint.
14:33
It feels like they lean into the novelty so strongly when you're
14:37
a new matcha business that I find that it's very, there's a
14:40
lot to be improved. Anyway, the core issues that I
14:44
find across the board after some reflection is, is staff training
14:48
is pretty bad. Both on the preparation side,
14:50
making sure you don't have clumps, making sure the matcha
14:52
is stored well, making sure it's staff can answer basic questions
14:56
like where is this matcha from? It felt like no one was prepared
15:00
to answer that question and typically they would look to
15:02
another colleague and the other colleague would say Japan.
15:05
Very strange customer interaction.
15:07
Baseline product quality also really needs to be worked on.
15:10
If you are not proud to serve the matcha as an Americano,
15:14
maybe you shouldn't be serving it.
15:16
The baseline product quality is very low.
15:19
That is a good take. Probably just not even offering
15:22
it as an option I think. Or you do it, and you do it
15:27
well. Yeah, that's what that's that's
15:30
what should be done. It's I think that actually
15:33
should be the action standard for cafes.
15:36
If the matcha you're serving, you would not be proud to serve
15:39
as an Americano, maybe you shouldn't be serving it.
15:42
Or you have two choices. You have one that's to be used
15:46
as an ingredient in a latte or some sort of mixed drink with
15:49
like strawberry matcha latte, for example.
15:52
And then you have one that can be used as an Americano.
15:55
Doesn't taste disgusting. That someone wouldn't be
15:58
embarrassed and say, Are you sure?
16:00
You realize that there's no milk, there's no sugar.
16:02
Are you sure you don't want a little bit of milk?
16:04
I was asked that, so it's I think that'd be a great call to
16:08
action for anyone listening. Bad preparation technique is #3
16:12
it there was, I had this very strange experience.
16:15
The last place that I went to, it's felt like they were doing
16:18
everything right. They had two matcha products and
16:20
they had a premium one and a normal 1.
16:22
So I said I'd like the premium one is an Americano, please.
16:25
And they put it on a scale and they had a special can and it
16:28
was a special area actually for the premium matcha.
16:30
And the whisk wasn't hydrated. And I could tell by looking at
16:34
the station that people don't order this very often.
16:36
So the the whisk wasn't hydrated.
16:38
It looked like it hadn't been used that day.
16:40
They put the scale down and the person preparing it scoops and
16:44
two scoops of matcha and it's 1.2g.
16:47
But she didn't even look at the weight.
16:50
So she just did 2 scoops and then she took some hot water
16:55
from like a little tiny cup, filled it up and dumped it in
17:00
and didn't look at the weight. This scale, it was like
17:04
measurement theater. The scale was there, it was on,
17:08
but it wasn't used in any way whatsoever.
17:13
It was complete. You know, it's like, you know,
17:15
they talk about security theater at the airports and in the
17:19
United States where like you go through this whole rigmarole of
17:23
like taking your laptop off out and your shoes off and it's like
17:27
it's to make you feel safe like that they're doing something it
17:32
it was really like measurement theater, which was very bizarre.
17:36
They didn't sift the tea, they whisked it.
17:39
There was some foam. So I was pretty impressed by the
17:41
foam. But by the time I got to the
17:43
bottom of my cup, I felt even more cheated because not only
17:46
did they use 1.2g and charged me more than £5 for this drink,
17:50
which is Hwy. robbery, but there were tons of clumps at the
17:53
bottom. So there was a lot that I wasn't
17:55
even consuming because they were still in the form of clumps and
17:59
there was a broken bamboo tine at the bottom because they
18:03
hadn't hydrated the whisks. So just like baseline, like
18:08
preparation and staff training could have gone a long way.
18:13
And this measurement theater was very concerning too.
18:16
It's like you have all these tools and they're not being
18:18
used. It's just clearly a staff
18:20
training problem. Yeah, yeah.
18:22
And you know, honestly, it's not just them, right?
18:25
Like it's quite ubiquitous, you know, from places to places, not
18:29
just in London either. You see this kind of treatment
18:32
of matcha in many, many other cafes, which is also interesting
18:36
because, you know, unlike coffee, you have a lot of these
18:40
books and videos that people can reference, can, you know, easily
18:44
train their Staffs to give a pretty decent quality coffee
18:49
preparation. You don't quite see that in
18:51
matcha yet. You see a lot of these handbooks
18:54
telling you how to prepare matcha ceremonially, but very
18:57
rarely that you run across any reading material or educational
19:02
material telling you how to prepare matcha for a high volume
19:05
cafe. Yes and no.
19:07
I mean, the steps are not that complicated.
19:11
Like most people should know how to use a scale.
19:15
Like we're not talking about a very sophisticated form of
19:18
preparation. Dialing in an espresso machine,
19:21
that's complicated. Making sure you don't have
19:24
channeling, making sure you're looking at volume in and volume
19:27
out, doing all and making sure you're like depending on the
19:30
humidity of the day and how you dial in the amount of coffee
19:34
that you're using. That's complicated.
19:37
This is, I mean, we're talking about sifting a powder, making
19:40
sure you get 2G and then making sure the water temperature is
19:43
appropriate and you're using the right amount of water and then
19:46
whisking it. It does not require masterful
19:50
skill or technique just to get its baseline quality.
19:54
That is true. That is true.
19:55
It's the I think the base. The fundamental problem of this
20:01
is not caring. It's not caring.
20:04
I think everyone who says that there's not enough much
20:06
education, which is us sometimes, but to get we're
20:10
usually referencing like like really high quality product, but
20:14
like just to get baseline quality.
20:17
There's no excuses other than not caring.
20:19
Like that does exist on the Internet chat.
20:22
GTP could tell you how to get baseline quality.
20:25
It's a little pathetic. Yeah.
20:28
Well, GTP sense that a higher standard usually, yeah.
20:32
But it was very concerning. And then there was this weird
20:35
use of these vibrating whisking things.
20:37
Very interesting. It actually does produce pretty
20:39
good foam as I was watching it, but boy, it makes a mess.
20:43
And like they were cleaning it. It was so disgusting.
20:46
The place that I went to that was using one of these, all of
20:49
their macho was in this gigantic bowl that wasn't covered,
20:53
exposed to light and air. Granted, this was a high volume
20:56
place, so they probably go through that bowl in two hours,
21:00
but it's still kind of was a mess everywhere.
21:03
They take scoops, they do measure it and they create large
21:06
batches of matcha and then they use this electric frother and it
21:11
just gets everywhere. This matcha station was a mess
21:15
and green and the whisk then gets dunked into a cup of what
21:20
was once water, but it's basically now in Usacha.
21:24
Based on the number of times they have cleaned it off, they
21:27
it into this cup of Usicha, which is now Usicha, take it
21:31
out. It's still covered in green.
21:33
And then they set it down. And then I was watching them
21:36
measure it out into the lattes and they didn't give a
21:39
consistent dose. Some people got, you know,
21:42
certain. I forget what that number was.
21:45
Let's say it was 10 grams of the syrup and the next person got
21:48
12, the next person got 9. And you could just visibly tell
21:52
how little care. I can understand if you're off
21:55
by a little bit, but the person behind the counter so obviously
21:59
didn't care and really didn't know what they were doing and
22:02
had a mess of a station. And actually she looked
22:05
overwhelmed to be honest. Didn't look like she was trained
22:08
very well. She wasn't given tools that
22:12
worked very well, and the workflow sucked and there was no
22:16
time for her to clean the station.
22:18
So I think this operation was kind of set up to fail by the
22:22
very design of it, yeah. You know, there's still a lot of
22:25
arts and science into that, like how modern Cafe can optimize
22:30
their workflow and station design and tools to cope with
22:35
high volume consumers. And you don't necessarily, again
22:39
back to my previous statement, you don't have a lot of
22:42
materials to reference how to do it well exactly.
22:45
Or someone you can copy. I mean, the beauty of specialty
22:48
coffee is you had Blue Bottle, you had Stumptown, you had
22:51
counterculture, you had intelligentsia, you had the
22:54
early multi roaster cafes and everyone can just copy each
22:59
other. It's like the dining industry.
23:01
If you listen to fine dining and the pinnacles of dining and like
23:05
the Michelin status restaurants, they go eat at each other's
23:09
restaurants and they get inspired, right?
23:11
Part of the reason why 1111 Madison Park improved their
23:15
coffee and tea program is because they had a dinner per SE
23:19
and had a fantastic dinner and then at the end of the meal they
23:22
had a pretty mediocre cup of coffee and they thought to
23:25
themselves, wow, everything about this is world class except
23:29
the coffee. And then that inspired them to
23:31
do a coffee probe. You have all this cross
23:32
pollination of understanding what other people are doing
23:35
really well or really poorly and then improving on.
23:38
I think we need a copy culture in matcha where these places go
23:42
around. I mean, really, everyone just
23:43
needs to take a trip to Bangkok or to Thailand, really be to
23:47
learn what's going on, to see the matcha scene in that part of
23:50
the world and then copy them, bring it back.
23:53
Like this stuff isn't precious. Like recipes shouldn't be
23:57
precious, ratios shouldn't be precious, workflow shouldn't be
24:01
precious. Let's go to who's doing this
24:04
well and copy it for the love of God.
24:06
It's embarrassing. And I can understand this
24:09
quality standard at a coffee shop that might not know any
24:14
better, but at a specialty matcha cafe where it's the only
24:18
thing they're serving, it's unacceptable.
24:21
Like it's ununderstandable. I don't understand it how the
24:25
quality standard can be that low and the staff training can be
24:29
that bad and how the workflows can be that bad and everyone's
24:32
interested in respecting tradition tea ceremony and using
24:37
a whisk and using a bowl and whisking everything to order.
24:40
Do you know what they should copy from Chano Yu?
24:42
The concept of working clean. There's this concept of working
24:46
clean in cafes. James Freeman recently put out a
24:49
post about it, the founder of Blue Bottle on his personal
24:52
account, talking about their the first time they opened a cafe in
24:56
Japan in Kyoto or in Tokyo, excuse me, And they served, I
25:00
forget how many hundreds of people that day.
25:03
They had news helicopters. It was a big deal when this Blue
25:06
Bottle opened in Tokyo and tons of press came and they were just
25:11
working nonstop all day, endless line.
25:14
I think some people wait. Someone waited overnight to be
25:17
like the first person in line at this Blue Bottle opening.
25:21
Do you know how long it took them to clean up at the end of
25:24
their service? Yeah, it was like 15 or 20
25:27
minutes, Yeah. It was 20 minutes.
25:29
That's crazy. Imagine serving hundreds of
25:32
people and it takes you 20 minutes to end the day.
25:36
And the reason that they did it is because they worked clean.
25:39
You don't have a big mess everywhere like it's crazy.
25:44
And that's what we should copy from Chaniyu.
25:46
Chaniyu has cleaning procedures baked in.
25:49
They not only do you pre heat your bowl, you pre clean your
25:52
bowl in front of the person you're serving it to.
25:55
And there's a special white piece of linen that's part of
25:58
the tea ceremony that every tea ceremony student learns where
26:01
you pre wash the bowl. It's a pre wet piece of linen to
26:06
pre wash it, to rinse the rim, to make sure anyone that was
26:10
drinking from that bowl before that the rim is clean, that the
26:13
bottom is clean and then like you drink from it and then they
26:16
clean it at the end. It's actually a huge part of
26:19
what a temi or the procedure of making matcha even is in the
26:23
traditional way and showing that type of intentionality.
26:27
And not only that, here's another thing that can copy from
26:29
T ceremony, inspecting the whisk.
26:32
There is a motion where you inspect the whisk before and
26:37
after you prepare the bowl of tea to make sure that you didn't
26:41
accidentally serve someone a little piece of bamboo for them
26:44
to choke on. There's all of these pieces of
26:47
intentionality that that we should be copying the spirit of
26:51
tea ceremony in this manner, like working clean and making
26:55
sure you're not giving someone a piece of bamboo and not the form
26:59
of tea ceremony which everyone's focused on.
27:01
I totally agree you know, on the other hand Ryan, we we should
27:04
probably not even copying the idea of how clean was being done
27:09
in China. U either like it's probably very
27:12
unrealistic to do all of those procedures in a high volume
27:16
cafe. I think what the current
27:18
specialty matcha industry is suffering is a lack of
27:22
infrastructure, lack of tools that can support the spirit of
27:26
working clean while maintaining the efficiency.
27:29
Then speed cleaning a matcha ball or like inspecting a macho
27:36
whisk that will break all the time.
27:38
I think that's just unrealistic for a high volume matcha cafe.
27:42
There should be tools that just don't break all the time.
27:45
There should be pairs or equipments that don't need that
27:50
amount of carrying, you know, from day-to-day basis.
27:54
Like the whole idea of working clean needs to be baked into the
27:59
very fundamental tool designed and workflow designed from the
28:03
very beginning. And I think that's what the
28:05
current specialty matcha industry is really suffering
28:09
from implying this, you know, high standard onto like
28:13
operating a mixed drink store in London, I think might be a
28:17
little bit too too, too high because she probably won't don't
28:20
even know how to improve the current workflow or how to
28:25
procure any better tools to cope with the difficulties that she's
28:29
running into every day. Yeah, potentially.
28:31
But I mean, even with the existing tools, I think that the
28:35
level of quality preparation and inconsistency and the lack of
28:39
ability to operate in a way where you're getting exacting
28:43
standards can be done with existing tools and with DIY.
28:47
You know, let's not be too self promotional in this podcast.
28:50
I mean, we're working on that infrastructure too.
28:53
But I think even with what exists now, you're able to have
28:57
very good workflows and even very good workflows in high
29:00
velocity environments. I think it is possible.
29:03
We do see it in Southeast Asia where they are able to do it and
29:06
to work clean that way meant to work efficiently and with
29:09
exacting standards where, you know, you're not getting
29:12
significant variation drink to drink.
29:14
Look at Oheka. Oheka because a high volume cafe
29:17
or kettle, I mean everything's sifted, measured, whisked to
29:21
order on a, on a scale with a variable temperature kettle.
29:24
And so I mean there are people who are, and I'm sure there's
29:27
many others who are not even aware of that are doing things
29:30
to very exacting standards. It definitely can be done.
29:33
I think the call to action is these matcha businesses or cafes
29:37
doing matcha programs need to go out and experience it first hand
29:41
at people and places that are doing it very well and just
29:44
copying it. Yeah.
29:46
That will be a more exciting future for Matcha.
29:49
And also a lot of the times consumer, consumers don't know
29:53
better. They are already liking the
29:55
products that are being served today and there's a very little
29:59
push from the consumer and for cafes to improve.
30:02
And I think for more experienced consumer in the future, the pull
30:06
and push dynamic will be more, more intense and we can have,
30:12
you know, more kind of motivation coming from the
30:15
consumer and to push cafes to improve their workflow and their
30:19
product quality. Yeah.
30:21
Well, now, right now all the much of businesses have a great
30:24
gift. Much is booming.
30:25
There's a much of shortage so much as in the news like you
30:29
know these places, there's very few of them and they have long
30:33
lines. But that's not going to be that
30:35
way forever. The economic opportunity of
30:37
starting a matcha business is very obvious at the moment and
30:41
just be by the fact that you have matcha and are serving
30:44
matcha or a matcha specialty place will one day be not unique
30:49
and special on its own. There's going to be more
30:52
competition and the places that will win in the long term I
30:55
think are places where the intentionality is clear, the
30:58
price is fair and the quality is consistent.
31:02
Just like any good business out there that has very good staff
31:05
training, at some point it's just going to be unacceptable
31:09
for these places to exist at the way that they do.
31:12
I think so. I agree that it's not there and
31:15
there's not consumer demand for this type of perfection yet.
31:19
But the consumers will change and the competitive landscape
31:22
will change. And the businesses that are
31:25
going to succeed in the long run are going to do so in large part
31:30
by improving quality. I mean, it's just sad.
31:33
The products that I tasted were disgusting.
31:36
And you know, these these consumers that are drinking
31:39
lattes or sakura mixed drinks and all, all of this stuff are
31:44
one day those people are going to form the foundations of the
31:48
people who want to have an usucha or a quartz kocha or a
31:51
light brew or an Americano style beverage or interested in
31:55
competition grade tea or single cultivar, single origin tea.
31:58
Like Brian from Machu Matcha who we had on as a guest.
32:02
He started with matcha pastries and matcha lattes full of sugar
32:05
and milk. What he said in the recording,
32:07
you know, now he started one of the most prolific high quality
32:10
matcha companies in Singapore. These people who are waiting in
32:14
line 30 minutes for a matcha latte are the foundations of
32:17
this specialty market. We don't know who they are or
32:20
exactly from an individual standpoint, but they are going
32:23
to form this foundation who will care about quality.
32:26
Totally great. So I think one call to action
32:29
from this episode is that I think every Matcha cafe that
32:33
serves an Americano or matcha with just water or whatever they
32:36
call it comes by different names.
32:38
Some just called it matcha, some called it matcha tea, some
32:40
called it matcha americano on their menu.
32:43
I know MTCH calls it a light brew.
32:45
Anyone who's serving this type of thing, baseline should be
32:48
proud to serve what they're serving.
32:50
I think it's a pretty good action standard for any
32:55
specialty matcha cafe out there. In getting the matcha not being
33:00
bad, we asked ourselves in the previous recording, in the
33:03
previous recording on this topic, why is all the matcha so
33:06
bad? I think the matcha will be of
33:08
acceptable quality when the matcha Americano can taste good.
33:13
I think it's a pretty easy action standard.
33:16
And the other thing is I think there just needs to be better
33:18
staff training and better staff training.
33:21
Not in like being told what to do, like not treating your staff
33:25
like they're stupid and give them a list of instructions and
33:29
say follow this exactly, but lead with context.
33:33
How can we give everyone the first principles to understand
33:37
why does matcha clump and how do you make it not clump?
33:40
Why does water temperature matter?
33:43
How is foam formed? And we give everyone the
33:48
foundational knowledge to understand the mechanisms that
33:51
lead to a higher quality product.
33:54
And I think my suspicion is a lot of these places give
33:57
employees a list. They treat them like they're
33:59
stupid. They say you follow this list.
34:02
I came up with this procedure and they're not armed with the
34:05
foundations to create a better product with that type of
34:08
knowledge. Yeah, totally agree.
34:10
Like probably on the list, one of the cafes that you have been
34:13
to says take two scoops of matcha into the bowl, but didn't
34:17
really, you know, convey the message that, you know, what
34:21
exactly should two scoops wait? It's just two scoops.
34:26
Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of
34:28
these guidelines, you know, you probably need to have the staff
34:33
to understand the fundamental reason why the, the guideline is
34:38
there, the, the, the operation is there, instead of, you know,
34:42
just springlessly training them or telling them, you know, this
34:45
is the exact order that you should follow.
34:47
Yeah. I mean, and it's not rocket
34:49
science either. I mean, I could do this in like
34:52
a couple minutes. Like here would be my very
34:54
impromptu education to someone who knows nothing about matcha,
34:58
who's going to be preparing at a cafe for the first time.
35:01
I'd say matcha is an extremely delicate product.
35:04
This is actually powdered tea leaf.
35:06
This is not something that dissolves like instant coffee or
35:09
like Tang or like liquid IV. So because of that, you need to
35:13
think of it much more like flour than you would like, mixing up
35:17
powder together like you would in a beverage normally.
35:20
Just like if you're making pancakes and you add way too
35:22
much water too fast and you're mixing it and get very clumpy.
35:26
Matcha is exactly the same. Because we're not actually
35:29
dissolving the matcha, it forms a suspension in water, which
35:33
means that these particles are mixed in with the hot water.
35:36
So that means 1. You need to save it either in a
35:38
batch prior to service or you can sift it to order, but it
35:42
needs to be pre sifted so it doesn't clump.
35:44
And then you need to really whisk it well.
35:47
But be careful. This bamboo Chasen is extremely
35:50
delicate. This bamboo is fragile when it's
35:53
dry and because bamboo is fragile when it's dry and these
35:57
tines are so small, this has to stay hydrated.
36:00
So hydrate it, give it, just run it under the sink for a second
36:04
before you and then wait a couple of minutes.
36:06
And then you can use this whisk, whisk it very vigorously.
36:11
But this is still a fragile instrument, so try not to scrape
36:14
the bottom too hard. Be gentle with this whisk,
36:17
whisk, whisk. And then what you're doing is
36:20
you're incorporating air to create foam, which is also an
36:23
important part of the sensory experience.
36:25
And when you do this, please use the right temperature Water
36:28
Matcha has an unusually high number of a compound called
36:32
catechins. Catechins taste very bitter,
36:35
very astringent, and they will readily extract past 80°C
36:39
Celsius. So make sure your water
36:42
temperature is between 70 and 75, otherwise you're going to
36:45
bring out a lot of bitterness in this tea because matcha is not
36:48
like other types of tea. It has a very unusual number of
36:51
these bitter compounds which will stay locked in the leaf so
36:55
long as we keep the water temperature low enough and we're
36:57
only extracting the good flavors.
37:01
There you go, right? Pretty well encapsulate the
37:03
first principles that you need to know to create baseline
37:07
decent matcha. Yeah.
37:09
And maybe a little bit more on matcha storage.
37:12
And I think that would be a perfect handbook.
37:15
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, storage too.
37:17
Matcha is very sensitive to light.
37:18
It contains a lot of chlorophyll.
37:20
When chlorophyll is exposed to UV and to light, it degrades
37:25
into a yellow compound, which tastes very bitter.
37:29
So we're taking this very precious green stuff, and when
37:32
it gets exposed to the sun and to the air, it's going to turn
37:35
from green to brown. And not only does the color
37:38
degrade, but the taste will degrade too.
37:40
So you need to make sure you keep the sealed and the
37:43
refrigerator, or if not in the refrigerator than in a sealed
37:46
opaque container. If everyone could just listen to
37:49
that 5 minutes and implement that and incorporate it into
37:53
their staff training, everyone would be drinking much higher
37:56
quality matcha. Totally agree.
37:58
It's really not rocket sign. The amount of procedures
38:02
required probably is even less than using a Chemex to brew
38:07
coffee. Yeah.
38:07
Probably, and by the way, anyone listening who has a cafe or has
38:11
a friend that has a cafe, we offer free consulting services.
38:16
I don't know how long we will do it for depending on demand, but
38:20
anyone who just like wins basic seminar on matcha, what is it?
38:25
How do you prepare it? What are common mistakes to
38:27
avoid? We do this for free so please
38:30
talk to us. It's actually our way of kind of
38:31
doing user testing too and to perfect our own training
38:35
materials for the future. So if anyone's interested in
38:38
that, we're happy to do it no matter where you are in the
38:41
world or for your clients for that matter, and happy to share
38:45
our educational materials as well.
38:47
We think that this should not be precious or gate kept in any
38:50
way. So we're we're happy to do it.
38:52
And same thing with baseline staff training for how to answer
38:56
questions like what is matcha? Where is it from?
38:59
Why is it so expensive? What makes this matcha better
39:02
than this other matcha so that like staff are able to have
39:05
educated come in with confidence.
39:08
When I asked where is this matcha from and no one gave me a
39:10
confident answer or they had to like ask someone else.
39:13
Like it doesn't send a good sign, especially if you're a
39:17
matcha specialty place. It's crazy.
39:21
So that's not the world that we would like to see.
39:23
In the spirit of giving first, we're very happy to help anyone
39:27
that wants any help with this and to share educational
39:29
materials that we have and that we are creating.
39:32
This is a good place to end. Yeah, I think this is a good
39:35
place to end. So really back to the basics I
39:39
think is what's required to improve matcha quality all over
39:42
the world and that staff education is super important.
39:46
We need to improve baseline product quality where people are
39:49
just buying better matcha because garbage in, garbage out.
39:52
We need to improve preparation techniques.
39:55
So we need to do away with measurement theater for using
39:58
these tools. Please use them actually.
40:00
And we also need to improve matcha storage.
40:03
And the last thing that I wrote that we didn't.
40:05
To talk about is dosing, which we've talked about before, but a
40:08
lot of the drinks that I have, especially in latte format were
40:11
way too weak. Matcha felt like it was
40:13
primarily being used as a colorant.
40:15
That's like something you were actually tasting.
40:17
So I think places need to to dose a bit higher so that you
40:21
can actually taste the product. Or if you're not dosing higher,
40:24
don't serve like a 16 ounce beverage and with 2G of matcha
40:28
in a latte format, you won't taste it.
40:31
Like force someone to have significantly less volume so you
40:35
can actually taste it. It's something I've noticed that
40:37
all the best matcha latte places do.
40:39
You're not served this gigantic drink, right?
40:43
You're served much smaller, much more concentrated drinks where
40:46
you can actually taste it. Even though it might not be what
40:49
consumers are specifically asking for, but protecting the
40:53
integrity of the product, they might come around to actually
40:57
appreciating that more. Totally agree.
40:59
And also I would like to add that we need to do our part as
41:03
well, Ryan, supplying the world with better tools and
41:07
infrastructure. And other companies too, working
41:10
on much equipment. Yeah, this is not just us.
41:15
There's definitely an infrastructure gap and needs the
41:18
creativity of everyone around the world who notice different
41:20
problems or in different cultures or for different
41:23
problems. Spaces not the same.
41:25
Matcha equipment is not meant for all types of businesses.
41:28
Some places need to make a matcha drink in 20 seconds or 30
41:32
seconds to be profitable. Different businesses require
41:35
different solutions as well. Absolutely, but all in the
41:38
service of better matcha. So anyway, if you enjoyed this
41:42
episode, please consider sharing with friends or giving it five
41:45
stars and whatever you're listening to.
41:47
And demand better matcha from businesses.
41:50
Yeah, in the next episode. See you in the next episode.
41:53
Bye.