Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / When Teaching Kids “Doesn’t Work”… Until It Does

Transcript

When Teaching Kids “Doesn’t Work”… Until It Does · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, It's the Happy Families Podcast Friday edition if you're
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: new to the pot. Every Friday, we talk about the
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: things that have worked or haven't worked in our families
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  Speaker 1: that we can do better tomorrow and maybe help you
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to do better tomorrow. I had the most amazing conversation
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: with the kids on Sunday. We engage in explicit teaching
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of values and principles that we want our kids to understand.
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  Speaker 1: On Sunday, I just had the coolest experience with the kids.
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  Speaker 1: Can't wait to tell you about what that was, why
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: it worked, and what they thought. Plus, Kylie is just
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: right into this kinesiology stuff. The research evidence suggests that
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: it doesn't actually work, and yet we keep paying for
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: it because we're finding that it works incredibly for our
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  Speaker 1: kids in our family. Why when the evidence says it doesn't,
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  Speaker 1: would we say it does? Today? We answer those questions
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and more. It's I'll do better tomorrow right after this,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: We get real parenting solutions every single day. This is
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast okay, around the country for
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: most areas, not all, but most states and territories. School
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: has gone back. Hopefully you've survived the week. We'd love
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  Speaker 1: to tell you about our kids and their school experience,
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  Speaker 1: but we've got a daughter in year eleven who said
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  Speaker 1: it was fine, and we're home schooling our youngest, so
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  Speaker 1: we've really got nothing to tell you about school this week.
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  Speaker 1: But we've got a whole lot of other stuff for you. Gee,
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  Speaker 1: I hope it's been good for you, Kylie. You're up
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  Speaker 1: first today, kinesiology. I've been opened up front about the
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  Speaker 1: fact that we spend a lot of money on a
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  Speaker 1: kinesiologist every so often, and I don't believe in it,
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  Speaker 1: but you keep on going.
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  Speaker 2: And you've also asked me that maybe we might stretch
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  Speaker 2: the visits out a bit more.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's not go so often anyway. You've been to
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  Speaker 1: the kinesiologists with a couple of the kids just recently,
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  Speaker 1: and your I'll do better tomorrow explains exactly why I'm
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  Speaker 1: happy to keep on paying for something that doesn't work
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  Speaker 1: according to the evidence. Terrible, I know, because it actually
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  Speaker 1: does work for our family.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting. I was talking with a friend recently. Her
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  Speaker 2: background psychology as well, and she's a practicing psychologist, and
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  Speaker 2: I was telling her about the experiences that I'm having
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  Speaker 2: with a kinesiologist and my children, and she just she
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  Speaker 2: looked me in the eye and she said, Kylie, she said,
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  Speaker 2: this is gold. She said, in in traditional psychology based,
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  Speaker 2: you know, talk therapy, you will take your child along
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  Speaker 2: to a session, and more times than not, they walk
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  Speaker 2: in the door and they close the door behind them,
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  Speaker 2: and you're left in the waiting room.
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  Speaker 1: Because the client therapist's relationship is sacrosanct and what happens
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  Speaker 1: in there is privileged and nobody knows and it's all confidential.
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  Speaker 1: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: And as a parent, I then wait to hear the
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  Speaker 2: debrief from my struggling fourteen year old or a eighteen
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  Speaker 2: year old or whatever it is that time, and depending
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  Speaker 2: on how they feel about the session, depends on how
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  Speaker 2: much or how little information I'll receive. But I'm never
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  Speaker 2: going to get the full picture, right, I'm never going
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  Speaker 2: to get the nuance through the conversation and how the
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  Speaker 2: psychologist said what she said and what that actually means.
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  Speaker 2: What I love about the kinesiologists that we've found is
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  Speaker 2: that this has been a space from day one where
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  Speaker 2: I've been encouraged to be a part of it and
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  Speaker 2: In the early days, it was so new to the
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  Speaker 2: kids and they actually struggled to kind of understand what
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  Speaker 2: was going on. So it was really important for me
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  Speaker 2: to be there so that I could talk them through
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  Speaker 2: it and help them understand. But as they've gotten older
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  Speaker 2: and they've become very comfortable in that space, the very
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  Speaker 2: first thing I say whenever we reach the appointment is
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  Speaker 2: are you happy for me to come in? Would you
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  Speaker 2: like me to stay outside? I'm really happy to go
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  Speaker 2: to the shops. I can go catch up with a friend.
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  Speaker 2: And every time, without fail, they're like, no, Mam, I
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  Speaker 2: want you now. I've got a daughter who can drive
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  Speaker 2: herself there. Now I don't even have to take her,
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  Speaker 2: but she wants me there. And as I was talking
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  Speaker 2: with this friend, she just said, she said, this is gold,
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  Speaker 2: she said, because what it actually shows is that your
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  Speaker 2: children desperately want you to be a part of their lives. Right.
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  Speaker 2: They actually want to be able to have these conversations.
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  Speaker 2: But some of them are tricky, and they're worried about
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  Speaker 2: our feelings. They're worried about how we're going to cope
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  Speaker 2: with the weight of their problems, or if it's actually
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  Speaker 2: targeted at us, how they can share it with us
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  Speaker 2: in a way that doesn't leave the relationship damaged.
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  Speaker 1: So there's like this third party. They get to talk
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  Speaker 1: to the third party about what's going on. You're allowed
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  Speaker 1: to be a bystander and.
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  Speaker 2: Kind of like a fly on the wall that they
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  Speaker 2: knows they're right, Yeah, but you're not a pestering, annoying
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  Speaker 2: fly on the wall.
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  Speaker 1: Wrong analogy like you're the pop plant that makes the
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  Speaker 1: room beautiful, right, but you're seeing and the pop plant
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  Speaker 1: sits there in the corner and doesn't say anything, but
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  Speaker 1: it adds to the feeling the environment. It makes the
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  Speaker 1: room work better.
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  Speaker 2: Well, here's the crazy thing. I actually do get to
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  Speaker 2: say something and I get to share my perspective, and
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  Speaker 2: that comes from both sides my kinesiologists. She might actually
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  Speaker 2: ask if I've got anything else to add, but often
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  Speaker 2: the kids will answer her questions and then they'll look
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  Speaker 2: at me and they go, Mum, is there anything else
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  Speaker 2: you'd add? They actually, again they're wanting and seeing that
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  Speaker 2: I have perspective that actually adds to the picture, it
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  Speaker 2: doesn't detract from it.
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  Speaker 1: So my general position on this is the research evidence
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  Speaker 1: shows that there's no there's no effects that we find
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  Speaker 1: from kinesiology in terms of benefit, health benefit, medical benefit, whatever.
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  Speaker 1: But what you're describing is why we keep paying and
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  Speaker 1: why the kids keep going, because in psychology terms, we
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  Speaker 1: look at what we call the therapeutic alliance. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about how well a client gets on with
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  Speaker 1: the therapist because we get the best results in therapeutic
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  Speaker 1: context when there's a high level of trust between them
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  Speaker 1: and they can talk openly and when the client is
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  Speaker 1: open to what the therapist has to say. And what
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  Speaker 1: you're really describing here as a counseling situation where they're
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  Speaker 1: doing a little bit of woo woo kinesiology stuff, But
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  Speaker 1: it's the counseling situation. It's the conversations, it's the openness,
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  Speaker 1: the vulnerability. What that context is opening up is really
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  Speaker 1: really deep. It's eye opening, it's jaw dropping. And when
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  Speaker 1: teenagers say, Mum, I'd like you to stay in here
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  Speaker 1: while I have this experience, this moment of vulnerability where
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  Speaker 1: I'm disclosing and working through really big challenges, that is,
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  Speaker 1: as our friend said, that is gold. Most parents, you
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  Speaker 1: can't buy that. And having that safe third party who
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  Speaker 1: facilitates this ongoing counseling style dialogue that is extraordinarily, extraordinarily valuable.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's where the value for money actually comes
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  Speaker 1: in this particular context. I'm completely committed to it and
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  Speaker 1: sold on it as much as I bag it out
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  Speaker 1: because we get those results. So let's you take our message.
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  Speaker 2: Your teenage girl's book Misconnection the subtitle why your teenage
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  Speaker 2: daughter Hates You, expects the world and needs to talk.
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  Speaker 2: Just this whole experience for me has just been this
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  Speaker 2: beautiful reminder that our children actually desperately want us in
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  Speaker 2: the details of their lives, even when they're pushing us away, right,
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  Speaker 2: they really want us there. And sometimes it requires a
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  Speaker 2: third party, a trusted space, a safe space where they
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  Speaker 2: feel like they can share and you can carry the
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  Speaker 2: weight or you don't. Actually you don't actually have to
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  Speaker 2: carry the weight of it. There's somebody else to do
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  Speaker 2: that for you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would add it doesn't have to be a
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  Speaker 1: paid consultation, whether it could be an artie or a neighbor,
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  Speaker 1: or when the kids have got that third per and
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  Speaker 1: somebody bounced things off idealing with you in the room.
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  Speaker 1: But not necessarily it just somebody else carrying the load.
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  Speaker 1: Somebody else. Facilitating your child's wellbeing creates that community so
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  Speaker 1: so valuable. I thought you were going to say, kinesiology
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  Speaker 1: is awesome. That's a take home message. Well, it is right, it.
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  Speaker 2: Is awesome, and if you gave it a go, you
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  Speaker 2: might actually become a believer.
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  Speaker 1: I gave it a go a few years ago.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, up next, unbeliever, that's what you are up next.
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  Speaker 1: The conversation that I had with the kids on Sunday
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  Speaker 1: that changed the game and gave me the reminder that
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  Speaker 1: these discussions where we explicitly teach our kids' stuff, they
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: really do work. Find out more in just to say
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: stay with us, We're back. This is the Happy Families
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  Speaker 1: podcast where you get real parenting solutions every single day, Sunday,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: every Sunday. We've talked about this a lot. We have
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  Speaker 1: time with our kids where we call it family home Evening,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: although we do it in the mornings now, so it's
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: not really it's more of a family home morning than
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  Speaker 1: a family home evening. You were away. I decided I
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  Speaker 1: was going to do it anyway. The kids were like,
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  Speaker 1: good do we have to? I'm like, come on, eight thirty,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to everyone's going to come into the living
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  Speaker 1: room we're doing this, and they moped their way in
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  Speaker 1: and they sat there and they sighed and they rolled
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  Speaker 1: their eyes, and I said, guys, every Sunday for January,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about healthy minds. Every Sunday
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  Speaker 1: in February, we're going to talk about healthy bodies, and
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  Speaker 1: every Sunday in much we're going to talk about healthy spirits.
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  Speaker 1: And the kids were like, oh, it's boring, and I said,
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  Speaker 1: I know, but we do this every Sunday, and you
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  Speaker 1: know it's not a surprise, so let's go. And I
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: decided that for healthy Minds, I wanted to talk about
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  Speaker 1: media consumption, what is our media diet? And I wanted
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  Speaker 1: to really have their attention. I said, guys, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to play you some music that I used to listen
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  Speaker 1: to when I was a kid. Now, for copyright reasons,
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  Speaker 1: I can't play it on the podcast right now, but
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  Speaker 1: I played some Henry Rowlands Roland's band. I went to
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  Speaker 1: see them at the Hawden Pavilion in the early nineteen nineties.
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  Speaker 1: It was the first time I ever got into a
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  Speaker 1: mosh pit and crowdsurfed and roll around up on top
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  Speaker 1: of everybody's hands. Roland's band music is pretty angry, heavy drums,
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  Speaker 1: heavy guitars, big bass, and Roland's screams. I mean, he's
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: not screaming. It's not like that horror Ah kind of stuff,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: but he certainly yells a lot when you sound like
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  Speaker 1: you're in trouble. When you're listening to him, he's lecturing
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  Speaker 1: you while he's quite unquote singing. Anyway, I've always loved
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Roland's band. I was actually listening to a bit of
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  Speaker 1: it over the last few weeks to work out what
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: song I should play for the kids. And there's this
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  Speaker 1: one song of his called Low Self Opinion, and the
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  Speaker 1: lyrics say something along the lines of I think you've
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  Speaker 1: got a low self opinion, man, I see standing or
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  Speaker 1: by yourself, unable to express the pain at your distress.
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  Speaker 1: It goes on and he's talking to somebody who does
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  Speaker 1: not feel good about themselves, and he says to them,
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  Speaker 1: if you could see the you that I see when
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  Speaker 1: I see you see me, you'd see yourself so differently.
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  Speaker 1: Believe me, if you could see the you that I
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  Speaker 1: see when I see you, you see yourself so differently.
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  Speaker 1: I assure you. I still remember this from when I
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: was seventeen, and I said to the kids, these messages
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  Speaker 1: get inside you. But as they were listening to the song,
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  Speaker 1: I said to them, guys, I want you to have
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  Speaker 1: a think about what this music does to you. How
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  Speaker 1: does it make you feel? What sort of reaction do
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  Speaker 1: you get? And they told me, well, it's angry. It
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  Speaker 1: makes me feel a little bit anxious, so it makes
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: me feel like I'm being yelled at. And they talked
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  Speaker 1: about those feelings and they were really great about that.
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  Speaker 1: And then I read them the lyrics because they weren't
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  Speaker 1: really picking up on the lyrics. They were more absorbed
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  Speaker 1: by oh my goodness, dad, you used to listen to this.
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  Speaker 1: And I said, what do you think about the lyrics?
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  Speaker 1: And they were like, the lyrics kind of don't match
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  Speaker 1: the music because the lyrics are saying something important here
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  Speaker 1: about how we need to we need to see ourselves
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  Speaker 1: as more of than sometimes we do see ourselves. I
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  Speaker 1: was like, this is great. I said, so let's talk
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  Speaker 1: about another song and I won't mention what it was,
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  Speaker 1: but I played a song that has some pretty unhealthy messages,
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  Speaker 1: but the music's really cool. It's a really catchy tune.
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  Speaker 1: And then I played another one similarly, and I said,
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  Speaker 1: so what do you think about these songs? And they're like,
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  Speaker 1: we really like the songs. I'm like, what do you
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  Speaker 1: think about the messages? And we talked about the lyrics.
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  Speaker 1: One of them is all about anxiety and feeding our
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  Speaker 1: anxiety and not in a healthy way, and another one
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  Speaker 1: had some pretty dodgy lyrics as well, and they were
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  Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, this is really this is a
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  Speaker 1: hard conversation for us because we like these songs, but
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  Speaker 1: the messages aren't good. I said, so what happens if
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  Speaker 1: you keep on giving yourself these messages? I mean, I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: can remember the music. I'm fifty. I was listening to
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  Speaker 1: this stuff when I was a teenager. I was sixteen
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  Speaker 1: and seventeen, and I can still remember it. And then
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I sang, I sang the jingle for aeroplane jelly right.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, I was listening to that when I was five.
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  Speaker 2: We all know you're a little bit abnormal.
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  Speaker 1: It gets inside you. And then I asked them the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: question what matters more the music or the message? And
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: I just watched them wrestle. They argued with each other,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: They went backwards and forwards. We went around the room.
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  Speaker 1: They brought things up, then they disagree. Then they disputed
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: with themselves rather than arguing with each other, like I
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: think I've changed my mind. And the conversation I only
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: went for about twenty or thirty minutes. It was not
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a long discussion. But the thing that I really wanted
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: to emphasize or share in this I'll do better tomorrow,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: which has gone too long, is that you came to
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  Speaker 1: me a few days later and said I was in
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: the car with one of the kids and they mentioned
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: that on Sunday you went through this discussion with them,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and then they talked you through the discussion, and it
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: seems like it had some impact.
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  Speaker 2: Interestingly, she had been thinking about some of the music
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: that she's been listening to and she said, Mum, she said,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I've got this song and she said the music is
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: so catchy. She said, bad as I've been paying more
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: attention because Dad was talking to us about you know,
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  Speaker 2: the meaning behind the words. She says, I've realized that
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  Speaker 2: some of the lyrics aren't very good. And I said, ah,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: what are you doing a situation like that? And she said, oh,
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  Speaker 2: it's so hard because I just love the song, like
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: it just like hooks me in and I want to
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  Speaker 2: keep singing it. And I said, yeah, that's really tricky.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I said, what have you decided? And she said, I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: just I can't listen to it. And I don't know
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: if she'll keep that resolve. But I love that she's
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: having this conversation and the internal dialogue is shifting as
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: she's starting to recognize the power of not only the
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: music but the words.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the critical thing here is that we're not
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: telling them what they have to do, because if we
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: tell them what they have to do, we will lose them. Instead,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: we're sharing a principle. We're asking them what they think,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: and then we're provoking them a little bit and letting
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: them think about it ongoingly and continuing the conversations. And
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that's where you get that identification with the values, rather
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: than I'm doing it because I have to. That's where
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you get the integration of the values. That's where you
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: make those values intrinsic, and that's really at the heart
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: of everything that we talk about in my books and
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: on this podcast. And I just I wanted to share
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: it because it highlights how it works when you create
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: discussion rather than when you lecture, but when you also
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in that discussion. You're allowed to have an opinion. It's
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: not like, oh, well you decide kids, It's not this.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: The kids can make up their own minds all the
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: way through their lives. You definitely want to be explicitly
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: teaching them. Some people say you shouldn't bother explicitly teaching.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: It doesn't work and it's certainly challenging, But when you
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: have that reflection it makes such a difference. Also pro
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: tip to you because when she said that to you,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: you didn't say good, I don't like you listening to it.
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  Speaker 1: You said, well, what do you think you should do?
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  Speaker 1: You encouraged more reflection when I.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Think about what you've just said. None of these conversations
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: are a one and done conversation. If that's all we do,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: then explicit teaching doesn't work because it's just a one off.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: It's just a blip in the scheme of their lives.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: But if where can persistently having conversations with them that
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: bring them back to that wrestle, that bring them back
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: to that conversation where they get to be challenged and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: push against the boundaries, that's where the real learning takes place.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: We really hope that these take home messages are helpful
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: for your family and that you can take them home
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: and have some great conversations with your kids. And I
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: don't know booking for a kinesiologists.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe I've got a good one if you need one.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Have a great weekend everyone. The Happy Families podcast is
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides all
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: the research, admin and additional support that we need to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: run the pod. Hey, how's the social media band going.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that on Monday. Please join
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: us then. Plus a big conversation about body image coming
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: up next week as well. If you'd like more InFine resources,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: keep listening to the podcasts, share it with your friends
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: because it'll make their family happier as well, and visit
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: happyfamilies dot com dot au for more