Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / MEMPHIS: THREE CHILDREN'S SKELETONS UNEARTHED, DIG RESUMES

Transcript

MEMPHIS: THREE CHILDREN'S SKELETONS UNEARTHED, DIG RESUMES · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Live to Memphis. Three children's skeletons, ages three to seven
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: we believe unearthed. The dig resumes, I'm Nancy Grace, this
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: with us.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: A dog walker discovers a human skull in a wooded
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: area of Memphis, Tennessee.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: As police began.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Searching the scene, they uncovered two additional sets of remains
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: believed to belong to children.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: In a stunning and grim discovery, three children's bodies have
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: been found. The dig goes on in a remote area
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: of Memphis. Listen.
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: Human remains were found in a heavily vegetated area near
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: Ridgeway and rich Meadow Parkway. It's very close in proximity
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: to where we are right now. At this time, there
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: is no indication of any active threat to our public, limen.
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: This search operation involves approximately one hundred and seventy personnel
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: led by the Memphis Police Department's Homicide Unit, and is
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: being conducted in collaboration with the Medical Examiner's Office, with
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: assistants from our federal, state, and local partners. Those agencies
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: include the FBI, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigations, the Memphis
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: Fire Department, the Shelby County Sheriff's Office Search and Rescue,
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: and the Shelby County Homeland Security Emergency Management.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan joining us just like Idaho.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Why do they always say initially there's no threat to
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: the community. They don't know that, No.
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: They don't. I think that the big thing here reason
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: she might be saying that is that these are skeletal remains.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: If these were what we would refer to as the
• 1:53
  Speaker 5: fresh dead, potentially, But here's my big question, Nancy, and
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: I think that it's on everybody's mind right now now.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: Is this in fact a dumping ground or is this
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: the deposition of three individual children that have been there
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: for quite some time, or is there more to this?
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: So I think that as you pull back from this
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: and you look at the bigger picture, you have to
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: keep all possibilities on the table.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Here, let's start at the beginning.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: When officers responded to a suspicious person call in the
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: thirty four hundred block of Ridge Metal Parkway, an anonymous
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: caller reported a possible human skull near a wooded area.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: Responding officers located what appeared to be a human skull
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: at the edge of the woods. Well, actually, an individual
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: in the community was just taking a walk. They were
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: having a walk with their dog and they stumbled upon
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: what they thought could have been human remains or remains
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: of an animal and just call the police, and after
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: further investigation, it was determined that what they found was
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: human remains. Investigators, along with the Medical Examiner's Office in
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: Shelby County Search and Rescue, conducted a more thorough canvas
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: of the area. During that search, CADAVERC nine units alerted
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: to a nearby drainage pipe, indicating the possible presence of
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: additional human remains.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: A drainage pipe that opens up a whole Pandora's box
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: of not only evidentiary possibilities what can be found as
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: to who committed these three murders that we know of,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: but also the psychological aspect of putting a child's remains
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: in a drainage pipe. Straight out to Melissa Andrews, joining
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: US Crime investigative anchor WTL eleven, Melissa, thank you for
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: being with us tonight. A drainage pipe. How did the
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: whole thing start?
• 3:51
  Speaker 6: Well, it started when this woman who was walking her
• 3:54
  Speaker 6: dog came upon this skull and she immediately called the police.
• 3:59
  Speaker 6: She said that she is very scared because it's not
• 4:01
  Speaker 6: known to be a good area.
• 4:04
  Speaker 7: She called the police.
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: They got those cadaver dogs out, they found another skull.
• 4:09
  Speaker 6: Those cadaver dogs hit on this drainage pipe and that
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: is where they found the other skull and then fourteen
• 4:16
  Speaker 6: other human bones. And they believe these are children's bones
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: between the ages of three and seven. But they have
• 4:23
  Speaker 6: no id, no cause of death or sex. The woman
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: also said that there was no tissue, no hair, or
• 4:30
  Speaker 6: any visible wounds on that skull.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, did you say, Melissa Andrews, that the woman said
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: that or authority said that.
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: I believe that the woman was able to identify that
• 4:42
  Speaker 6: there were no visible wounds to the skull, no hair,
• 4:45
  Speaker 6: and no skin on that skull.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Guys, the video that we are showing you now is
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: from our friends at ABC. This is a shocking discovery
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: in Memphis. There are over two hundred bones in a
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: human body. Melissa Andrews, how many bones did you say
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: have been recovered so far?
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: Fourteen at last check, and also two skulls.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: I will never forget, Melissa Andrews, when the body of
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: little Kelly Anthony was found, and searchers worked into the night,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: through the night, over twenty four straight hours, trying to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: assemble all two hundred plus bones of Kelly's body, including
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: each little part of her fingers, her hands, all of
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: the delicate little bones in her body, trying to put
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: this child back together again. It was excruciating those teams
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: working through the night with spotlights on the earth, trying
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: to put Kelly back together again. And now it's times
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: three that we know of dogs have been brought in.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Joining us right now, Dave Moyer, Georgia canine tracker, master
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: trainer of canine's, former deputy canine handler with San Bernardino's
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Sheriff's Department, and former Navy bomb disposal master technician. Dave,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: thanks for being with us. Tell me from the very beginning,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: when you prep the dogs to take them to a
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: scene like this, what do you do before you even
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: let them out?
• 6:34
  Speaker 8: Yes, the canines are highly trained, and they're trained on
• 6:38
  Speaker 8: a lot of very small items. So knowing that the
• 6:43
  Speaker 8: state of decomposition for these remains, most of your handlers
• 6:48
  Speaker 8: are going to go ahead and preface some of these
• 6:50
  Speaker 8: searches by training up real fast on similar items that
• 6:55
  Speaker 8: they have in their training library. That's other human remains
• 6:59
  Speaker 8: that are in a similar state. So that's going to
• 7:01
  Speaker 8: prime the dog to look for a very specific odor
• 7:06
  Speaker 8: in regards to the decomposition level, when you.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Made very specific training for odor of decomp these dogs
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: are unlike scent dogs that are tracker dogs. What type
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: of tissue do they hit on?
• 7:26
  Speaker 8: Yes, ma'am. They are very similar to tracking dogs in
• 7:29
  Speaker 8: that regard. Human odor is human odor, whether it's living
• 7:32
  Speaker 8: or dead. These dogs are proofed off of any kind
• 7:35
  Speaker 8: of animal decomposition and they only alert on human decomposition tissue. Now,
• 7:41
  Speaker 8: the way that I did it on the Sheriff's Department
• 7:44
  Speaker 8: was I had three various levels. I had what would
• 7:47
  Speaker 8: be referred to as the fresh dead, also an advanced
• 7:51
  Speaker 8: state of decomposition, and also the antiquated or skeletonized bone.
• 7:56
  Speaker 8: So between those three sub sections, it gives you a
• 7:59
  Speaker 8: very good variety of the kind of human remains that
• 8:02
  Speaker 8: you might be encountering, and training the dog on all
• 8:05
  Speaker 8: three is critical. For the antiquated bone, it is much
• 8:09
  Speaker 8: more dipic leanines to find because there's more, I'm sorry
• 8:12
  Speaker 8: I misspoken, there's less decomposition odor with skeletonized remains than
• 8:17
  Speaker 8: there is in a more advanced decomposition state. So that's
• 8:22
  Speaker 8: why it's important to train on all three levels, with
• 8:24
  Speaker 8: the fresh, the intermediate, and the advanced or skeletonized tissue.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: You're taking a look at an aerial that we have
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: for you the remains found there. We refer to it
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: as remote, but when you look at it, Dave Matt
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Crime Stories investigative reporter, you see a busy thoroughfare. Do
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: you see that it looks like an interstate nearby there?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: What can you tell me about the area? And this
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: is significant as we try to determine who these children
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: are and who left them there.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Nancy Hickory Hill is a neighborhood in southeast Memphis. It
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: is south of Highway three eighty five and it sits
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: between Riverdale Road and Mendenhall Road, directly across the street
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: from where the bones were found. Since an elementary school
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: and a church, so we've got a lot of areas
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: for young people to be around on a regular basis
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: and an area that has had a lot of a lot.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Of traffic from people.
• 9:29
  Speaker 8: I mean, you know, not just cars.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: We're talking about a lot of people in and around
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: this area for a long time.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Guys, this aerial is telling me a lot.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Straight back out to you just got Morgan joining US
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon and star of a hit pot cast
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott. If
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: you take a look, let's see it one more time.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Please the aerial. Very often when you are looking at
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: the location, you get an idea, an idea, an educated
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: guess where the children came from and who may have
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: left them there. If you look, you see that it's
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: in a little community, and it's being referred to as
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: a remote area. But I guess they're saying that because
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: it's in the midst of a group of trees, a
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: grouping of trees where there's a little foot traffic. But
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: if you look all around, you see a lot a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: lot more structures where you u see parking areas. This
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: means this could be someone with knowledge of this area
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: or and this isn't helpful. I know it's not helpful.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: It could be someone that takes this route or knows
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: of this route doesn't live anywhere near it, but thought, hey,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: that's a great spot to dump these bodies. And my
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: initial question, which I'll circle back to Joe Scott as
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: we were discussing off air, I wonder where the three
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: children put there at once? Are they members of a family?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Are they members of some group? Why haven't they been
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: reported missing? Or have they been reported missing? If they
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: have not been reported missing, that would suggest that a
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: parent or a family member is involved. Yes, another thing
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: where they put there all at once? Or is this
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: simply a burial ground where one child after the next
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: is killed and then separately disposed of there?
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: You know, I got to tell you, Nancy, just looking
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: at the aerial that we had there, you see those
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: opportunities for access there just that roadway itself, Nancy. You
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: see how it kind of curves out. You can pull
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: over on the side of the road right there. Do
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: you see that big grassy area and you could easily
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: walk into that area. You pull back from this and
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: you look at the broader aerial shot on the opposite side,
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: almost the same distance. If you split the difference from
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: between that curve and the road, there's another structure that's
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: over there there's a large area where you know, we're
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: talking Nancy, what they say three to seven years old.
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: It would be very easy to literally walk body in there.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: So I'm with you. Here's the thing about it. When
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: I first came across this case and I began to
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: hear it, I'm thinking, Okay, you know everybody missing three children?
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: Raise your hand, and it's just so bizarre because of
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: all the cases that we've covered, I don't remember covering
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: a case like this. We've had the fresh dead with children. However,
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: we're talking about skeletal remains and Nancy, just as kind
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: of a preview. They're not saying that these are recent.
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: They're saying they could have been there for years. That's
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: what the media is actually reporting right now, relative to
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: what the police have said. So I'm thinking, how in
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: the war did they wind up there? And to that point,
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: how did anybody not notice it before?
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Now, well, we know that the person, the individual that
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: raised the alarm first stumbled upon a skull, which tells
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: me that there has been animal activity. In other words,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: they've been tearing apart the bodies. Melissa Andrews, isn't that correct?
• 13:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah? Memphis police have also said that they have looked
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: through missing persons reports in that area and there are
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: no missing person's reports for children of that age. So
• 13:33
  Speaker 6: we don't believe that these are children from the Memphis area.
• 13:37
  Speaker 6: And in fact, I looked on the national Missing Person's
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: database and there are hundreds of missing children, five hundred
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: and eighty four boys and girls missing in the US,
• 13:49
  Speaker 6: ages three to nine. And your other guests mentioned three
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: missing children. We have three missing children going back years
• 13:56
  Speaker 6: here in our area.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And I looked up some data.
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: Are three siblings boys And when you look at that
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: national Missing Person's database, there are one hundred and sixty
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: one white boys ages three to nine missing, including five
• 14:12
  Speaker 6: sets of brothers. And in that group is those brothers,
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: and they are the Skelton brothers missing from Morenci, Michigan.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Interesting, many people immediately suspected these are the Skelton Brothers'
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: remains that has been ruled out. Is that correct, Dave
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: mac It is Nancy.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: You know, the immediate jump to the Skelton brothers out
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: of Michigan was shut down by police, very very quickly.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Michigan State Police said they're not the children were looking for.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: And you have to remember that the ages of those
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: boys is five, seven and nine, whereas in this case
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: they're talking about the ages of three to seven.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: So back to you, Dave Moyer, when you bring the
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: dogs out, what's the first thing you do, because I'm
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: very suspicious that there may be more remains.
• 15:01
  Speaker 8: Yes, ma'am, the first thing you'd want to do in
• 15:03
  Speaker 8: a situation like this is get well outside of the
• 15:05
  Speaker 8: area that's contaminated with all the other investigators that have
• 15:09
  Speaker 8: been there, taking a look at your weather conditions, I
• 15:11
  Speaker 8: would work from the downwind side into that area and
• 15:15
  Speaker 8: allow the dog to use its nose to maximum advantage.
• 15:18
  Speaker 8: They're going to lead you to any kind of human
• 15:20
  Speaker 8: decomposition that is in that in that area. Now, with
• 15:24
  Speaker 8: all of this, all of these remains in the same location,
• 15:26
  Speaker 8: it's going to be heavily, heavily saturated with decomposition odor.
• 15:30
  Speaker 8: So finding the tiny little pieces will be very difficult
• 15:34
  Speaker 8: because of that heavy saturation. With time and with less
• 15:37
  Speaker 8: contamination with all the investigators and people in the area,
• 15:40
  Speaker 8: they'll eventually be found. But this is going to require
• 15:43
  Speaker 8: multiple teams of dogs coming in at multiple times to
• 15:47
  Speaker 8: continue to search that area over and over again.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: What do you mean multiple teams of dogs to search
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: the area over and over again.
• 15:55
  Speaker 8: Why because of that heavy saturation of decomposition oder in
• 16:00
  Speaker 8: the area. Once the larger pieces are removed to the
• 16:03
  Speaker 8: more obvious pieces, you will want to search again for
• 16:07
  Speaker 8: increasingly smaller pieces and smaller items that are decomposing. It's
• 16:12
  Speaker 8: just so saturated with that odor. The dog may not
• 16:15
  Speaker 8: be able to differentiate between a large piece where it
• 16:18
  Speaker 8: was sitting and a small piece that is still in place.
• 16:21
  Speaker 8: I'm hoping that makes sense.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Do you have to bring in multiple teams of dogs,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: like after X number of hours do they get exhausted?
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I know this sounds like a rudimentary question, but how
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: much can their noses take? For how many hours they
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: do they become immune to the smell? Do you have
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: to bring in new dogs for that reason?
• 16:44
  Speaker 8: Not immune to the smell, But yes, ma'am, they do
• 16:46
  Speaker 8: get exhausted and they will go what you would refer
• 16:50
  Speaker 8: to as nose death and humans, it's just because of
• 16:53
  Speaker 8: that heavy saturation in the area. And different dogs have
• 16:56
  Speaker 8: different skill levels and slightly different specialties. One may be
• 17:00
  Speaker 8: a better at decomposition tissue or fluids, and another may
• 17:04
  Speaker 8: be really really good at decomposing bone or older bone,
• 17:08
  Speaker 8: antiquated bone. So just to have that investigative integrity, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 8: would use multiple teams with multiple specialties just to make
• 17:18
  Speaker 8: sure they recover as much evidence as possible.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: When I've had cases where a second team of dogs
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: had to be brought in, this is how I explained
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: it to the jury because I did not want the
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: defense suggesting something was off or wrong with the first
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: set of dogs. Have you, Dave Moyer, ever gone into
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: someone's home and you're like, oh, oh, do they not
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: smell the cat urine? And everybody's acting like it's normal,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: and you're the only one that it just has to
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: lead to go get a breath. Okay, So they're used
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: to it, their nose death. They've been around it for
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: so long. They cleaned the floor, they sweep, they might
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: they think everything's fine, but people that walk in that
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: haven't been living there are not back. So I try
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: to explain that after X number of hours you bring
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: in a fresh set of dogs. Does that make sense.
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: Yes, ma'am, it absolutely does. And it comes back to
• 18:19
  Speaker 8: that threshold saturation. And it's like this with any discipline
• 18:23
  Speaker 8: and detection, whether it be explosive detection, narcotics detection, or
• 18:27
  Speaker 8: in this case, human remains. There is a certain threshold
• 18:31
  Speaker 8: most of your cadaver dogs. Unfortunately, most folks that run
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: cadaver dogs for the dog's entire career may never find
• 18:40
  Speaker 8: a real skeletonized set of human remains or actual human remains.
• 18:45
  Speaker 8: They train on it all the time, and they're very
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: good at it, and they certify in it, but they
• 18:49
  Speaker 8: may not actually have a dead body that they locate,
• 18:52
  Speaker 8: an entire dead body or in this case, three is
• 18:55
  Speaker 8: a tremendously huge scent pool of decompositional odor, and that
• 19:01
  Speaker 8: can easily throw a dog into what's called threshold where
• 19:04
  Speaker 8: it's just it's too much odor and they start to
• 19:06
  Speaker 8: shut down. We saw that a lot in Iraq and
• 19:09
  Speaker 8: Afghanistan with bomb detection dogs, when they would they train
• 19:13
  Speaker 8: on trace amounts of explosive odor, and then suddenly they're
• 19:16
  Speaker 8: confronted with a couple hundred pounds of an improvised explosive
• 19:19
  Speaker 8: device and a culvert, and the dogs would just they
• 19:22
  Speaker 8: behave differently and they go into what's called a threshold
• 19:25
  Speaker 8: shutdown it's just too much.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Investigators work with the City of Memphis Drain Maintenance Division
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: to inspect that drainage system. A camera system was used
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: to examine the interior of the pipes. Based on those
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: prior canine alerts, investigators assessed the drainage system from a
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: nearby location and locate at what appeared to be an
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: additional skull. Search teams conducted another coordinated canvas of the area,
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: which resulted in the recovery of fourteen additional bones consistent
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: with human remains.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall, I've got so many questions for you, but
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I want to nail down a lot more facts before
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: we really get into it. Guys, doctor Bethany is not
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: just a colleague, She's a friend. She is a renowned psychoanalyst.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: She's coming joining us tonight out of the LA jurisdiction.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: She is the author of deal Breaker. She's working on
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: her next book right now. You can see her on
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Peacock and Bravo and find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: dot com. You know, doctor Bethany, you and I have
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: covered a lot of cases together. We've gone to crime scenes.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: But what I just heard Chief CJ. Davis there at
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: the Memphis PD talking about finding another skull at a
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: certain point in all of our careers. Everybody on this
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: panel tonight, you know many of us. For many of us,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: this is a mission. It's not a career, it's a
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: mission to just have it roll off our tongues. Another
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: skull was found. See now the chief of the police
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: didn't think anything about that. But just think about it.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Do you remember when I had the twins, It was
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: just the biggest thing that had ever happened to me
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: in my life before or since. And when I think
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: of a child's skull being referred to so casually, it's
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: very upsetting. That's when I tried cases, wouldn't I couldn't
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: think about what really happened to the victims. I thought
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: about putting the evidence in front of the jury, and
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: then on breaks it would kick in what I was
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: talking about. But I guess we do it because we've
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: got to keep functioning if we want to achieve our goal.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: But did you hear what she just said? And of
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: course she's right, but just so casually referring to a
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: child's skull, one as young as three years old, And
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I haven't even gotten to the psychological import sticking a
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: child's dead body in a drain pipe. But just the
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: magnitude of this, and there may be others they're looking.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: The dig has resumed as we go to air tonight.
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: You know, Nancy, thinking about the twins. You wanted those
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: babies so badly. And I remember when you told me
• 22:25
  Speaker 7: you were pregnant. We were on Court TV and you
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: wrote it on a piece of paper and shoved it
• 22:31
  Speaker 7: towards me. I'm pregnant exclamation mark because you weren't yet
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: ready to announce it to the world, and you knew
• 22:37
  Speaker 7: that the control room could hear. And then later on
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: when they were four or five and we were at
• 22:41
  Speaker 7: h ol N, I remember they're sitting in the room
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: while you were doing shows, playing angry Birds. Do you
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: remember that? And I could hear the sound go out
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: over the air, and I thought, this mother loves her
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: children so much. And in contrast calling these children like
• 22:57
  Speaker 7: a skull, what I'm really thinking is what did these
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: children endure before they were secreted in a drainage pipe.
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: If these are children who are not reported missing, likely
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: they were in abusive environments where their parents kept them.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Off the grid.
• 23:15
  Speaker 7: And what I mean by that is children who are abused,
• 23:18
  Speaker 7: especially abused through neglect, are often held back from school,
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: medical treatment, friends, play dates in the neighborhood because the
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: parents are trying to hide the abuse. So when the
• 23:33
  Speaker 7: child goes missing, nobody notices. You and I have covered
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: so many cases like that. But what's hopeful about this, Nancy.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Most kids who.
• 23:43
  Speaker 7: Are the victims of homicides, the predominance of them, are
• 23:48
  Speaker 7: are murdered by their parents, and usually the bodies are
• 23:52
  Speaker 7: secreted within a quarter mile of the family home. So
• 23:57
  Speaker 7: I would start with a very small area and then
• 24:01
  Speaker 7: move outward in terms of searching people in the community.
• 24:04
  Speaker 7: And Nancy, what this POI said about the community is
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: not at risk, I strongly disagree, because there are witnesses
• 24:13
  Speaker 7: out there, and those people are probably quite frightened tonight
• 24:18
  Speaker 7: about discovery and what would happen if they came forward
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: and worried about being victimized by the perpetrators.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about whether they are in fact siblings,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and that will be determined through a DNA test. But
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I want to go back to I'm going to need
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: to circle back to that because just as we've seen cases,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: for instance, the Golden State killer Joseph DeAngelo, that's a
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: perfect case where years and years and years later this
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: former cop is identified as the Golden State Killer. He
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: went on a rampage and it lasted over two decades
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of raping and mar people. He moved jurisdictions, so the
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: jurisdictions were not coordinating their searches. They didn't know to.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: It's not their fault. So every time he would move,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: it would just start all over again, undetected, and there
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: in each new place they couldn't detect a pattern, but
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: there was definitely a pattern, just as genetic genealogy cracked
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: that case, where you take DNA from the scene and
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: you go back and back and back to the Mayflower
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, and you do a flow chart all
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: the way down until you finally reach the present day
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: and you find out who, if any one, matching that
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: DNA is in that area at that time. That's how
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it works, the same way that worked with Joseph DiAngelo.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: It can work with these children's DNA, and there will
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: be DNA, even though they are skeletonized, there will be
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm curious, were there are any clothes. If not,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: it would be great if there were, because that could
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: be an identifier. But if not, there will beat DNA
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: in the bones. So are these three dead children siblings?
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Are they not connected? It's hard for me to believe
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: they didn't come from the same area, the same neighborhood,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: possibly the same home. But we're going to learn a
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: lot once DNA testing is done to determine are they siblings,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: and then we'll do genetic genealogy to go all the
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: way back and find out who their parents are.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: But to the.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Drainage pipe aspect, they could have dogs certainly that hinders
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: their search. If these three are in a drainage pipe,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: what does that mean if there are other bodies, where
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: are they, so, Melissa Andrews, where they all in a
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: drainage pot, or or any of them in graves shallow
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: graves for instance.
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: My understanding, Nancy, is that that first initial skull was
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: found by the woman and her dog as they were walking.
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: And you can see in some of those areas on
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: the map that you showed there would be maybe some
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: places that people would be walking dogs. So it appears
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: to me that she was just walking through there and
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: the dog, her dog, actually hit on this skull. And
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: then when the authorities were called out there there kudaver
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: dogs alerted them to this drainage pipe, and then a
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: few days later they were able to use a camera
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: to search in this drainage system where they found the
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: second skull, and then in that general area found fourteen
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: more human bones.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So, Dave Moyer, you're the K nine expert, how do
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you go about using the dogs in a confine space
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: like a drainage pot and explain how did that work?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: What Melissa Andrews joining us from WTOL eleven, how did
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: that go down?
• 28:13
  Speaker 8: Well, I'm glad you asked that, and you mentioned that
• 28:16
  Speaker 8: the initial reporting party, her dog, had been drawn to
• 28:19
  Speaker 8: the decomposition odor to the skull. Remember, dogs are not
• 28:22
  Speaker 8: just predators in their natural environment, they're also scavengers, So
• 28:26
  Speaker 8: dogs are naturally drawn to decompositional odor. This lady's dog,
• 28:30
  Speaker 8: for instance, had no idea that it was human decomposition.
• 28:34
  Speaker 8: But just like your dog will drag you into the
• 28:37
  Speaker 8: bushes if he smells a dead squirrel or a deer
• 28:39
  Speaker 8: that might have been hit by a car or something
• 28:41
  Speaker 8: like that, because they want to investigate.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: It's part of the.
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: Dog's instinct to be drawn to that kind of decomposition. Now,
• 28:48
  Speaker 8: how you're going to search an enclosed environment like that.
• 28:51
  Speaker 8: I would absolutely access all of the county and state
• 28:54
  Speaker 8: records for that area. I would be looking for what
• 28:58
  Speaker 8: structures or what businesses used to be in that area.
• 29:02
  Speaker 8: You mentioned there was a church nearby. Is there a
• 29:04
  Speaker 8: cemetery nearby? Could this be something with the groundwater that
• 29:10
  Speaker 8: there's someplace these skeletons or these remains were deposited that
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: somehow ended up in the drain pipe, not just for instance,
• 29:18
  Speaker 8: stuffed in there to hide the bodies. And I really
• 29:21
  Speaker 8: like the idea of the potential shallow graves in the area.
• 29:24
  Speaker 8: There could be shallow graves, There could be some kind
• 29:26
  Speaker 8: of reservoir that this drain pipe is draining, and that's
• 29:30
  Speaker 8: how the remains ended up there in the first place.
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: So again, I'm sure the investigators have gone to great
• 29:35
  Speaker 8: links to cover all those bases, but it is things
• 29:39
  Speaker 8: to rule out and things to think about. The dogs, Unfortunately,
• 29:42
  Speaker 8: you can't Most dogs aren't really going to be too
• 29:45
  Speaker 8: comfortable being stuffed into a pipe. And I would never
• 29:48
  Speaker 8: be comfortable with my dog and a pipe that I
• 29:50
  Speaker 8: couldn't fit in and be immediately there in case the.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Dog runs into trouble.
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: So there's going to be a very large excavation of
• 29:56
  Speaker 8: this entire drain pipe system, just to search theory a
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: little bit more.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Dave, it's got to be big enough for a human
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: because an adult put them in there. And know they
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: didn't just float over there from a nearby cemetery. That
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: that did not happen, and no bodies mysteriously went from
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: a casket into a drain pipe and then go down
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: a drain pipe to another drain pipe. So you know
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: you're a great canine handler, but you need to stop
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: that right there, that line of inquiry and suggestion these
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: children were killed and they were put there, they did
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: not float over from another cemetery. You have just started
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: wild conspiracy theories that are going to go on, and
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: you may have even given some Zani defense attorney an
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: excuse a trial. So thank you very much for that,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Dave Moyer. I want to get back to the bodies.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan. I cannot believe they came out and
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: said there's no threat to the community. Really well, remember
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: when one sex worker goes missing in Long Island, no
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: threat to the community. Now there's eight that we know of,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and you and I both know that the nearby butcher
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: is Long Island serial killer. We've established that through many
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: hours of arguing. So we don't know how many more
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: bodies we can attribute to Rex Hureman may he writ
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: in hell because it happened over a period of years
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: and years and years. So how do I know whoever
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: killed these children aren't still killing children. Remember, I'm coming
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: from the Atlanta jurisdiction where we had the Atlanta child murders,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: and I still don't believe we found all those dead bodies.
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: No, I don't think that they found them all in
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: that case. However, let me give you a number here,
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: just so that folks understand the scope of this. Folks
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: don't realize. You know that when we're born, we're born
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: actually with two hundred and seventy bones in our body.
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: That reduces as we get older to when we hit maturity.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: We have two hundred and six. Nancy, If you look
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: at that number, you're well up into an area if
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: you have mature bones, all right, you're talking about six
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: hundred plus bones that you're looking at right now. They
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: have a total they found fourteen. We know that we've
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: got two skulls, so there's a huge piece of this
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: that's missing. And a lot of those bones are going
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: to potentially contained information. To Dave's point, just a moment ago,
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: I don't you know, I think that there is a
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: potential you're talking about floating. No, they probably didn't float
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: it from graveyard. However, we're in a drainage pipe, Nancy,
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: and they say that they have inspected this area. I
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: want to know how thorough the inspection is, because whatever
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: happened happened upstream from this. If they did wash down
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: the pipe, and that is possible, there's another place I'm
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: going to be looking because I've had k like this.
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: Every area that is adjacent to this. I'm popping covers
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: off of manholes as well, because those classically there have
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: been body depositions in manholes. Somebody that wants to hide bodies,
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: maybe they want to get into the drainage system, this
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: sort of thing. Points of access, and you really have
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: to exhaust every inch of this, all right. And I'm
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: not talking about putting damn cameras in areas. I'm talking
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: about on your hands and knees, crawling through it. I've
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: done it, a lot of other people have done it,
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: and yeah, it's tough work, but you have to get
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: in there and really dig in. This is not, in
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: my opinion, what we refer to in body recovery as
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: a surface deposition. I don't think there's a shallow grave here.
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: I think that this is something that's coming out of
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: this pipe. Now, whether or not the individual decided to
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: put a body in a pipe or they're putting them
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: in some other location where it's making it down the pipe,
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: that's what we're looking at. So how many points of
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: access do you have familiar with this environment stretching out
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: this entire area. You know, doctor Bethany mentioned this just
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: a few moments ago. You're you're starting concentrically and you're
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: working your way out when you begin to think about suspects,
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: but also points of access along here, and you got
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: to do the dirty work here because we're talking about
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: three kids, Nancy, three kids, three kids. This is so
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: bizarre and so abnormal in our wacky world that we
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: talk about crime in this Even even in that context,
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: this makes us really bizarre. So we'll see what happens.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: What's the big key here though, is getting them identified.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Was there anything else?
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: We have not discovered any other elements, only bone fragments
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: at this time. What you're seeing today is a continuation
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: of those efforts. Our goal today is to conduct a
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: thorough and methodic search of the area for an additional
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: for additional evidence that will assist in identifying the deceased.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: This coordinated search is focused on a defined area along
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: Ridge Metal Parkway between Ridgeway Road and Winchester Road, where
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: investigators are conducting a systematic grid search. The size of
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: this response reflects the scope of the search area and
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: our commitment to being thorough and not the presence of
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: any immediate danger. This remains inactive and ongoing investigation. We
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: are following the evidence wherever it leads and will continue
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: to work closely with our partners throughout this entire process.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: The dig is going on, including with fresh cadaver dogs.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: The search is expanding. Melissa Andrews, what can you tell
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: us about the ongoing search?
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, it's not just digging, and it's not just
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: cadaver dogs. Authorities are going to have to do forensic
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: testing on these and you know, we talked about the
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: Scouting Boys earlier. That's just one example of some missing
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: children in the United States. I told you that there
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: are five hundred and eighty four missing boys and girls
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: between the ages of three and nine. When I talk
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: to the Michigan State Police, they said, yes, we don't
• 36:15
  Speaker 6: believe that these are our boys based on the timeline,
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: but we are going to be sending dental records. We
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: are going to be sending DNA. So it's likely that
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: all of these five hundred for missing children authorities in
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: those areas where those children are missing will have to
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: also send that information to Memphis because, as we know,
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: Memphis police have said they do not believe these children
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: are from that area, and they're from somewhere.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: I find that really interesting, doctor Bethany Marshall, that they
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: immediately assume these children are not from that area. Maybe
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: they don't want them to be from that area just
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: because there's not a missing person's report, which in many
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: jurisdictions is a felony not to report your child missing.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: A lot of that came about after Harmony Montgomery went
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: missing and years passed without schools or family reporting her
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: missing because the dad did it. Very simply put, after
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: years of torture, no one has reported them missing. But
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they're not from that area. That said,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: why is it that We're so quick to say, oh,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: there's no threat to the community. Thank Long Island serial killer.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: There was a threat to the community. Or they say, oh,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: they're not from this area. How do we know that.
• 37:35
  Speaker 7: We don't know that, Nancy. It sounds a little bit
• 37:39
  Speaker 7: like not in my backyard. This wouldn't happen in this jurisdiction.
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: We could never have children go missing who are unreported
• 37:46
  Speaker 7: or we did not investigate. But Nancy, the likelihood is
• 37:50
  Speaker 7: that they are from that area. You know, stereotypical kidnappings
• 37:55
  Speaker 7: where a child is abducted, taken across state lines and
• 37:59
  Speaker 7: then represents less than one percent of all kidnapping. So statistically,
• 38:07
  Speaker 7: the chances are very high that these children are from
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: that immediate area. And Nancy, let's think about the fact
• 38:13
  Speaker 7: if they are siblings, what commonly see as an abuse
• 38:18
  Speaker 7: pattern and households is that two or three children will
• 38:22
  Speaker 7: be treated with love and care, and they might be
• 38:25
  Speaker 7: nurtured and fed well. Well, another child is sort of
• 38:28
  Speaker 7: chained in the basement and starved. And I know that
• 38:31
  Speaker 7: sounds crazy, but you and I have seen this again
• 38:35
  Speaker 7: and again. So if these three children are siblings, likely
• 38:39
  Speaker 7: they were raised in a household where other siblings saw
• 38:44
  Speaker 7: what was going on. So I'm hoping that siblings will
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: come forward, or they were raised in a household like
• 38:51
  Speaker 7: the Turpins. Remember that they had thirteen children that they
• 38:55
  Speaker 7: were starving and torturing, and fortunately this came to the
• 38:58
  Speaker 7: attention of law enforcement before any of those children died.
• 39:02
  Speaker 7: But what if we have a Turpin household situation where
• 39:05
  Speaker 7: there are multiple children who are being abused, deprived, neglected, starved,
• 39:12
  Speaker 7: and these three kids were just the first to go.
• 39:15
  Speaker 7: And if we see other skeleton remains in that area,
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: and if they are genetically linked to these three skeletons,
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: then you really have to look to a household in
• 39:27
  Speaker 7: the area where children were being imprisoned, kept against their will,
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: kept out of school, and never coming to the attention
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: of law enforcement, which is of course why the sheriff
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: is saying, oh, they're not from our area, because that
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: means something was seriously overlooked.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Straight back out to Dave Morier, Georgia k and I tracker,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: mass trainer, canine tracker, former deputy share of canine handler
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: with San Bernardino Shear's department. Dave, what do we do
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: with the dogs now, and I'm not convinced this is
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: the only burial ground.
• 40:16
  Speaker 8: I would absolutely go back to my previous statement with
• 40:19
  Speaker 8: I would get some more dog teams out there, and
• 40:21
  Speaker 8: I would broaden the search. I would certainly eliminate any
• 40:24
  Speaker 8: possibilities of things being in the area or any additional
• 40:28
  Speaker 8: graves being in the area. You've just got a lot
• 40:30
  Speaker 8: of questions that are unanswered here. I mean, for instance,
• 40:35
  Speaker 8: something as simple as the city taking a look and
• 40:38
  Speaker 8: seeing when the last time that drainage type might have
• 40:41
  Speaker 8: been serviced might put a time stamp on when these
• 40:44
  Speaker 8: remains were actually deposited.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Hey, Moyer, you know when I told you to leave
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: the investigation to us. Okay, I take erase that, because
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: that's a brilliant idea. Will you say that one more
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: time about the drainage pipe.
• 40:57
  Speaker 8: Yes, ma'am. I mean I would get with the city
• 40:59
  Speaker 8: at stay and or counting and figure out when the
• 41:01
  Speaker 8: last time that drainage pipe was actually serviced or even installed,
• 41:05
  Speaker 8: and that puts a timestamp on when these remains might
• 41:07
  Speaker 8: have been deposited in that drain pipe.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even a rough estimate would help, and another extrinsic
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: piece of evidence would be for instance, I'm when you're
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: trying to prove an arson case, Dave, as you well know,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you don't look just at the scene of the fire.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: You look at extrinsic evidence, such as I had a
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: defendant who actually called the weather station to ask what
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the weather was going to be on a certain date,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: which was the date his house happened to catch on fire.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: He also called his insurance company to find out if
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: they would replace if they would pay for rental furniture
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: or replacement furniture if there was a fire. And then
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: lo and behold, there was a fire and his wife
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: died in the fire with a blow to the head.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: What a coincident, right, So all of that is extrinsic
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: evidence to prove an arson happened. So here, timing the
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: last time the drainage pipe was serviced would be extrinsic evidence.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: And here's the problem. The dogs or the medical examiner
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: can't date DNA. You can't get a great or a
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: time of death on DNA.
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: Correct. Correct.
• 42:31
  Speaker 8: There's again there's a lot of questions on answer here
• 42:34
  Speaker 8: that the dogs simply can't answer. For you, there's simply
• 42:38
  Speaker 8: a detection apparatus that are going to lead you to
• 42:41
  Speaker 8: the evidence, and it's up to other forms of investigation
• 42:43
  Speaker 8: to determine the rest of the evidence that we're talking
• 42:46
  Speaker 8: about here.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: You know, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psycho analyst.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: How many times have we sat on the sett and
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: go and say the same thing? What is wrong with people?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: For instance, if you know that the neighbors children just
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: disappear and the neighbors are still there, why don't you
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: do something? If you have relatives like I just mentioned
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Harmony Montgomery, I just mentioned her, what did nobody notice?
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: She was missing for years? Nobody said anything? So here
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: is the question for the ages, what is wrong with people?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Why don't they act?
• 43:26
  Speaker 7: We know, Nancy, children notoriously do not have a voice.
• 43:31
  Speaker 7: As much as we love our babies and our little
• 43:33
  Speaker 7: children in society, they are not advocated for in court systems.
• 43:38
  Speaker 7: They do not have a voice for themselves. So what's
• 43:41
  Speaker 7: wrong with people is that children are devalued? Nancy, And
• 43:46
  Speaker 7: you know, people who could be witnesses or reporters, they
• 43:49
  Speaker 7: often doubt themselves. They'll say, well, I think I heard
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: through the walls of my apartment building some guy yelling
• 43:55
  Speaker 7: at his kid and slapping and beating, and I don't
• 43:58
  Speaker 7: see the kid anymore. But what if I'm wrong and
• 44:01
  Speaker 7: I get the dad in trouble. So you can see
• 44:04
  Speaker 7: in cases like that, the parent is prioritized over the child.
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: Now another factor, Nancy. You know I talked about the
• 44:12
  Speaker 7: Turpins and if there were multiple children being neglected in
• 44:15
  Speaker 7: a household. What if we have like more of an
• 44:17
  Speaker 7: Epstein situation where you have a wealthy influential person who
• 44:23
  Speaker 7: is luring children, maybe like allegedly a Michael Jackson, and
• 44:27
  Speaker 7: parents are handing their children over for what they believe
• 44:32
  Speaker 7: is some greater good for the child, and when the
• 44:34
  Speaker 7: child goes missing, they don't report because the older influential
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: person is targeting parents who are economically deprived. You don't
• 44:44
  Speaker 7: have an eye on the ball, don't really care. So
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: you know, I think in terms of searching for the perpetrator,
• 44:50
  Speaker 7: they should look at all levels of society.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: And to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: what now, I'm not convinced these are siblings. That's convenient. Well,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to take the easier route. What if
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: they aren't siblings? What if they were disposed of on
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: you know, years apart, weeks apart, months apart. I am
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: not ruling anything out. That would be easy if they
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: all match DNA, wouldn't it That would make it a
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: lot easier to find them three missing children. But I'm
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: not convinced that's true.
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: No, not necessarily it's not, and certainly not particularly we're
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: talking about a predator that is looking for kids in
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: this age range. Okay, but let's go back to this.
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: This is the important thing. There's two types of age
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: of skeletal remains that people think about how long how
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: long have the skeletal remains been out there. That's a
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: separate that's a separate bit of data. And then we
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: have to think about how old were the victims when
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: they died. So two numbers. That's going to be sussed
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: out by the people at the forensic center that services
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: the western part of Tennessee. And these are top top
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: people here, Nancy. You know, in one of the images
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: that you guys showed, you know, who I saw was
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: out of the scene people from the body farm. Nancy.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: They're wearing their T shirts, they're wearing their hats as reassuring.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Hey, just to let everybody know, Joe Scott, tell everybody
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: what the body farm is. That is reassuring.
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So the body farm is established by doctor Bill Bass,
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: Professor emeritus at ut He established a body farm many
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: many years ago in order to determine estimation of time
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: since death on skeletal remains. It's real easy, you know,
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: in my world, in the medical legal world. When I
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: go out and I have have fresh remains, you know,
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: and I see them see them lying about there, you
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: go there they are, and you know where I shall
• 46:51
  Speaker 5: have soft tissue. You get into skeletal remains, it's very,
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: very difficult. So they literally do testing on human remains
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: at ut UP and not. So this has been around
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: for a long long time. These people are tops in
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: their fields, so they're physically out there right now assisting
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: with this, including all the other people that are there.
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: But here's the key, Nancy, and we have to keep
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: coming back to this. I teach my students at jack
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: State and the cops that I teach the most important
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: element to death investigation is finding out who the victim is.
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: If you can do that, you can build out their
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: social circle. Right now, we're going to lean heavy into
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: DNA I'm encouraged that there are two skulls because with
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: the skulls there might be teeth. We can get a molar,
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: and also inside of the skull we can get from
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: the petre's bone and we can extract DNA from there.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: You know. Interesting to Melissa Andrews, this is a property
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: near and auto parts store has been surrounded by crime
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: scene tape. I would start with finding out who works
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: at that autoparts store, who's left the area. We go
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: back a good twenty years. I don't know if it
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: was always an autoparts store, but since the bodies are
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: so close to that, that is where I would start.
• 48:08
  Speaker 6: I agree with you, Nancy, And as you pointed out
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: at the top of your show, and as you've shown
• 48:12
  Speaker 6: there on the map, this is not really a rural area.
• 48:15
  Speaker 6: So I'll be really interested I'm sure you will too
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: as to where this goes, because as you said, there
• 48:21
  Speaker 6: needs to be a lot more digging in this area.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: bodies of three little children now found, please dial Memphis
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Homicide nine zero one six three six thirty three hundred.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: You know, in a lot of cases we see a
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward, a million dollar reward.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: There's no reward to help solve this case.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: No one, no one.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Is speaking out for these children. Please don't sit back
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: and do nothing. If you know or think you know
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: anything about these children, please dial nine zero one six
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: three six thirty three hundred. We remember American hero Deputy
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Logan Fox with Touga County Sheriffs, North Carolina, just
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: twenty five, shot in the line of duty after four years,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: leaving behind a broken hearted fiance and Alice. American Hero
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Deputy Sheriff Logan Fox Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,