Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #161: Joel’s Homesteading Tips Q&A (Part One)

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Episode #161: Joel’s Homesteading Tips Q&A (Part One) · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough, and I'm here with our absolute favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: And today is a special treat because today is all about Joel and homesteading.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to go through many questions that our listeners have sent in, and they're all about homesteading.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is great because even if you're not a homesteader, it's fantastic just to hear Joel's opinion and his advice and to get us closer to our food supply.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So this is an episode that could be valuable to everybody.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Joel, here is our first question.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: This comes from Dan Weinberg.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Hello, Joel.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading, folks, this ain't normal.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got many ideas from there.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I volunteer on a 2.5-acre urban farm.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just outside of Chicago.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's fairly flat land.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're thinking about digging a pond to collect rainwater, but we don't have a mountain to use gravity to distribute the water.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a way to get the water to the fields easily without water pumps?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's a great question.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, a 2.5 acre is not very big.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: 2.5 acres is only two and a half football field.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So depending on its configuration, nothing is real, real far.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so remember that the um the vertical, every vertical foot of water uh offers you 0.432 pounds of pressure.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in other words, you've got a you've got a tube one foot high, you get 0.432 pounds of pressure.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go 10 feet, you get you know 4.32 pounds.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: You go 100 feet, you know, you get um 43 pounds.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just so you understand uh your domestic, you know, most domestic water systems operate somewhere in the neighborhood of about 40, 40 pounds of pressure, just so you kind of know what you're like.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you have an outdoor faucet, you know, you're gonna hook up a garden hose and water the flowers or something, you know, that that water's gonna come, your pressure tank is set at about 40 pounds of pressure.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so with this in mind, uh the be it water and and and water when it goes through a through a pipe or a tube, um, it swirls.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just go you know static, it actually swirls.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is you get friction, friction against the edges of the pipe.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um if you increase the size of a pipe, you can you can maintain the same flow as a small pipe that's higher pressure.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Think about pressure as like uh amperage, okay?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and so your flow rate has to do your your amount of water you can get flow like gallons per minute is a is a combination of pipe size plus pressure pushing it through the pipe.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the bigger the pipe, the more water you get at the same pressure.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: You got 20 pounds of pressure on a two-inch pipe, you're going to get the same flow rate as you would um uh you know 40 pounds of pressure on an inch and a half pipe and 60 pounds of pressure on an inch and a quarter pipe.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a couple factors to answer the question how do I get water out there when the land is almost flat?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Realize that you don't need much pressure if your pipe is bigger.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you spring for a little bigger pipe, you don't need 40 pounds of pressure.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: You could probably on a two and a half acre, fairly flat place, goodness, if you just had uh 15 pounds of pressure on an inch and a quarter pipe, you know, don't use a three-quarter inch, don't use a one inch, go to an inch and a quarter or even an inch and a half for that matter, increase your pipe size, and you can deliver that out uh at the same pounds of pressure as you would something with you know 40 pounds with a smaller pipe.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So put a little more money in a pipe and you can get good flow even with low pressure.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how are we going to get the pressure?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you drop to if you say, well, you know, 20 pounds of pressure is enough, or for that matter, even 15 pounds of pressure is enough, well, goodness, uh 15 pounds of pressure, you can get that with something that's just um 30 feet high.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So 30 feet high, is there a tree?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is there a tree um that you can pull a you know, pull a IBC tote up in, or two, you know, these these uh square IBC totes, they're like 500 gallons.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would, you know, pull them up in a tree 30 feet high.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, can you do you have a roof, you know, uh a nearby structure?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can place these on a roof uh to get you a little bit of elevation, and and um, and then you can dribble that, dribble your water in from whatever your, you know, whatever your water source is.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: You can dribble that water in over time.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can even uh hook up a bicycle that in 10 or 20 or 15 minutes you can you can uh turn a bicycle and pump the water up into the IBC tub.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then when you're out in the field, whenever you open up open a faucet, you have gravity-fed water out in a field um that you don't have to maintain real-time electricity pumps and pressure tanks to get.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Gravity is the only way that you can get uh water, that you can move water in real time without energy.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Gravity is the only way you can do that, at least as far as I know.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so on flat ground, small acreages, you don't need a lot of pressure, put a little more money in the pipe and uh and and get a and get uh some sort of a reservoir up high.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's why cities use water towers, okay?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's because they need to have enough water for all the toilet flushing and showers when people come home from work.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so they dribble water up there all night, and and then it can, you know, it can uh uh come out rapidly under gravity pressure so the city doesn't have to maintain real-time electrical pump pressure uh when everybody's using using their water.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that helps.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was just thinking it's a morning physics lesson from Joel.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who would have thought farming would involve so much physics, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, that's right.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, water, water's a water's a big deal.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, so yeah, uh any anything that you can do to elevate, and you know, 30 feet isn't that high.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty of trees that you can, you know, if it's a nice big oak tree or something, you can get something up there 50, 60 feet even, um, and and uh and and dribble, you know, dribble that water in either with a solar pump, with a bicycle pump, with a you know, electric pump, what any kind, uh, dribble that water in, and then you have you know real-time pressure out there in the field.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that hope that helps, Dan.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, thanks for the question.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, Joel, this is gonna be a record.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get through more than one question in this episode.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so moving along.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: This next question comes from Jessica Revis.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: She says uh they've purchased farmland that had been abandoned for decades.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's covered in brambles.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: She wants to put cows, chickens, and goats on it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Jessica says every farmer we have talked to has offered the same suggestion.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Obtain soil samples and fertilize it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: They've promised quick improvements with our land if we fertilize it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a lot of experience, but I did see improvements in the land when I rotationally grazed animals.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: The improvements took time.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: They were not mind-blowing, but they were certainly noticeable.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: My questions are: is there ever a reason to fertilize land before you've put animals on it?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any risks or benefits to animals who consume grass or hay from fertilized land?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And will the fertilized land be more productive than land that hasn't been fertilized?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is fertilizer toxic to the people who have to live around it?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe let's start with that first one.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is there ever a reason, Joel, to fertilize land before you're going to put animals on that land?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, fertilizer is a is a is a big topic.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's good fertilizer and bad fertilizer.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, compost is fertilizer.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, let me let me just uh I want to uh what and Jessica, thank you for the question.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, what Jessica is asking is for the the group of fertilizers that we would call chemical fertilizers.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is chemical, chemically acidulated uh um you know chemical fertilizers that you'd buy down at the industrial farm store.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: She's not talking about fertilizing with cow manure or compost or something like that.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so with that in mind, um, no, I don't think there's ever a uh use for chemical fertilizers.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm a great big fan of fertilizers.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm a great big uh uh fan of fertilizing, all right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't do it with chemical fertilizers that will, you know, if if they get on your hands, they they you know, if you have a cut on your hand, uh, you know, it'll it'll burn your hand like mustard.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it, you know, chemical fertilizers are completely uh uh annihilating to earthworms because they're acidulated, so they actually burn the uh burn the skin right off of earthworms.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: They literally burn them to death.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I'm not a fan of chemical fertilizers.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's throw out the chemical fertilization issue for now.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I have um you know if I may use a PC term, I'm I'm a zero tolerance uh chemical fertilizer guy.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what are we gonna what are we gonna do with these brambles?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: The the the question, the the thing that has developed this is we've you know, we've got this piece of land, got a bunch of brambles on it, you know, how can we move that?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, here's the thing to remember all the vegetation that exists on a piece of property is a physical manifestation of the cumulative effect of the management that has gone on that land before.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, for people like Jessica, who is uh um, you didn't read it all, Cena, but um, but a little bit of her question is she and her husband are having a bit of uh tension in their in their decisions about what to do.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and Jessica, I would say, look at your husband and say, Do we have brambles in our lawn?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he'll say, No, you never see brambles in the lawn.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the lawn has the same soil in it as the as the brambles that are outside the yard fence, probably within a few feet.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same soil, same climate, same place.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the difference is that your lawn gets mowed routinely.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Your management and brambles can't handle mowing.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: They can't handle routine mowing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: They are they are um opportunists that come up when when due to lack of managed grazing, the grass gets thin, the grass actually implodes, the grass crowns implode, it gets it thins out.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: As it thins out, that creates bare ground where brambles, you know, birds are eating berries and things out, they're dropping seeds around.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so suddenly you have bare ground, and so nature uh to to put a a protective cover on itself, grows something prickly and brambly and thistly in order to protect that bare ground from being exposed again.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it uh that is uh uh a natural thing.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in Illinois, too.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is Illinois.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um was this Illinois?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, the first one's Illinois.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where this is.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but anyway, if you're east of the Mississippi, if you're east of the Mississippi, um essentially the the brambles are an early successional, uh an early successional manifestation of a of a return to woods.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, east of the Mississippi, if you walk away from your lawn, from a golf course, from a football field, in 10 years, it's gonna be growing trees.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Every single square foot of grass east of the Mississippi is man-made.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know environmentalists, environmentalists don't like to hear that, but um you know, before the Europeans were here, the Native Americans' tool was not a lawnmower, it was fire.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they strategically used fire to burn back the woody vegetation, trees, brambles, brush, in order to bring on the grass, because the Native Americans wanted bison and elk and deer to hunt, along with you know, passenger pigeons and all the seeds uh that grow in a you know in a in a pasture in a prairie setting.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Forest ecosystems are actually fairly sterile.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're sterile, they're sterile, they don't make very many seeds, they don't make very many insects, they don't make many bugs.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's why wild turkeys can't have babies in the woods.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wild turkeys require grass, pasture, in order to grow enough bugs to feed their little pults.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Polts need about 29% protein, very, very high protein.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: You'll never find that kind of protein in the woods.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the woods is where they roost and go for you know for protection, but the field is where they eat.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why when you have a lot of edge effect with woods next to next to pasture, that's when you get a proliferation of of turkeys and grouse and you know, all sorts of these birds that roost in the trees but feed in the field.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's called edge effect, you know, that actually stimulates things.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So your brambles, Jessica, your brambles are symptomatic of the abandonment.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you started out by saying, you know, this place has been abandoned for a long time.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: The abandonment took the people out of it, the management out of it, the mowing, grazing, whatever people were doing with that land.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then as the as the grasses thinned out due to lack of exercise and management, the bare soil uh made an open, you know, uh, a germination tray for the brambles to come in as the beginning of trees and succession that in, you know, if you hadn't moved there and now we're you know taking care of it, uh, you know, this would be a forest in 20 years.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so what you're seeing is that natural succession.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh how do you how do you uh um stop it?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the quickest way is simply to mow.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just start treat start treating your pasture like your lawn.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Most people's uh lawn is actually way more productive than their pasture uh because it's it's it's it's cared for more carefully.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so if you will apply that same care, so how do you how do you you can mow the the brambles, you can, for example, um raise some pigs and put you know uh put their feeder out in those brambles, let the pigs tromp it out.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can have you could put cows, uh, put a put a mineral box out there or a water trough right in the middle of the brambles.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: The cows will you know, tromp that out.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can put a shade mobile out there for pigs or cows or or sheep, and they'll tromple out the brambles.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the point is, you can use animal impact uh to actually tromp out the brambles, and they will stir up and activate a new forage base.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now it might be real weedy at first, but that's okay.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Weeds are fine.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we call them Forbes.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whether it's you know it'll come back in a diversity of more succulent.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: The point is, it'll come back in more succulent things.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so um so you have mentioned the point in your question, uh, Jessica.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the point of time and how on a previous property you saw you know changes pretty rapidly when you started uh controlled grazing.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll see the same thing here, but it does take time.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the biological time clock is real.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh very seldom do things, uh very seldom do biological things heal in a day.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, you get a you get a scab on your hand, you you know, you knock some skin off your hand, uh, you can put all sorts of fun things on it, and it's still, it's, it's, you're not gonna have a scabless hand tomorrow.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it'll be a week or two until you finally get healed up.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing is true.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So this land that's been abandoned for a while, that biological, that biological clock that started ticking, moving it toward a successional forest, now you're trying to wind that clock back to a prairie, to a more prairie forage-based ecosystem.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that clock has its biological, um, you know, uh as a biological time clock, and it may take three, four, five years to actually get it back to where you want it, but um uh but you can do it, let time be your friend.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't don't go in and get frustrated and impatient with it.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let time be your friend and just systematically, strategically, pragmatically begin uh changing the management on those brambles back to something else.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you can help it with a mower.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can you can do some of that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, John Kemp, who just spoke at our Stopman grass farmer gathering here a month ago, uh, said that if you have brambles, you can mow them and then immediately uh spray on boron.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just get borax and dissolve it in some water and spray that on the the freshly mowed tips of the brambles.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he says that will kill a bramble clear down into the roots.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't done that, I don't know if it will, but um, but that that was his that was one of his, you know, um, if you want to do something a little more dramatic or faster, uh yeah, that certainly is worth a try.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Get your backpack sprayer and and go out there and work on it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, if this is a large acreage, you can do something else.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but certainly strategic animal impact, come alongside with the mower.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously the the fertility part is is the you know, the animal, the manure, the dung, uh, if you could get compost, if you can get some chicken litter somewhere, um, something that's a little more benign than chemical fertilizer, and put that on, uh, you know, you're gonna you're gonna see a you're gonna see a change.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So she so you take care of the bramble, but you are in favor of like in this condition putting like compost, you know, that kind of fertilizer on the land, even before you get the animals on there, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: To help uh no, I I I I would say I would say there's look, there's no reason, that's a good, that's a good clarification, Cena.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's no reason to put any soil amendment on until you have the the wherewithal to change the management top side.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So your water line, your fence, uh, you know, those kind of things to be able to get the pigs or the cows or the sheep.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yes, you can do goats, but goats are I never I never encourage goats for for first timers.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're just too hard to control.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you want to start with something like a cow or a pig that is much more respectful of electric fence, um and and is much easier to control.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't want you to have a you know a frustrating you know startup.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um cows and pigs are easy to control, electric fence, sheep, less so.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Goats, um much, much, much more difficult.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be, you know, goats are houdinis.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the the joke in livestock circles is you know, if your fence won't hold water, it probably won't hold a goat.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so goats are goats are are a little bit problematic.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so I I would encourage you to deal with this through, you know, a heavier animal with strategic impaction, like you know, a mineral box.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: A water trough, a a shade mobile, and shade mobiles can easily be made, even for two or three cows, you know, out of nursery shade cloth and just uh a spare axle somewhere, uh, you know, a trailer axle, a goodness, a boat, a boat trailer.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've seen shade mobiles made out of just about everything you can imagine, and it doesn't have to be, you know, expensive or big.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and you place that strategically where you want the animal impact and the manure and the urine to go, and it's as good as spreading compost.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just one quick follow-up question.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: The if we're talking about chemical fertilizers, are do you are those toxic to people?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you mentioned the earthworms.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be toxic to the animals, like the cow that's on it or the people that are living around it?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, have you researched that at all?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, well, I mean, it's toxic to them if they eat it, all right.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh is is that is it toxic?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: If if you spread chemical fertilizer on grass and cows eat it, is it toxic?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not toxic.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, from that respect.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: What what it does what it is though, is number one, it tends to um reduce soil organic matter and it and it embitters, it reduces the bricks, it reduces the sugar of the forage.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you can you um so the cows can actually taste the difference.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I remember well uh a new homesteader moved in just a few miles from us, and they had a they had a couple milk cows, and uh they didn't make hay, so they were gonna they were gonna buy hay for these cows, and I told him to get it from you know somebody that doesn't use chemical fertilizer.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: He said, well, it's probably all the same, doesn't matter.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I gave him a bale of our hay, and he went and bought, you know, I don't know, a pickup load of bales from this guy that sold hay near us, and um, and he he'd he'd been using that anyway, and so that was fine.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I gave him a bale of our hay to try, and um, so he he went and he took two patties, two patties of our hay, put it down in the bottom of the hay box, and covered it all up with this other hay from the from the other guy, you know.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the cows, as soon as they went in there, they literally tossed out, they went down and they burrowed down and tossed out all that other hay in eight hours.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so those those cows knew, those cows knew.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I would just, I would just remember, chemical fertilizer is is an artificial.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're listening to our podcast, you know we're not into artificial foods, we're not into artificial meats, we're not into, we're we're we're we're really not even into artificial pharmaceuticals and drugs and and all those kinds of things.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so chemical fertilizer is is like my dad always said it was equivalent to a drug addiction.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're it's it's it's like an intravenous drug that you're putting on the soil rather than actually feeding it nutritious food that its biology can then eat, metabolize, and make this amazing, you know, cornucopia of available enzymes and and and microbes available to the plant.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So is it toxic to the cows?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, cow's not gonna die if she eats it, but I can tell you from personal experience, you give that cow a choice of chemically fertilized grass and you know, uh non-chemically fertilized grass, she will pick the non-chemical every single time.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's amazing.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, do the cows smell it?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that how they know to go to the bottom?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like seen it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever seen how big the nose is on a cow?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, because I've seen your cows, yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cows have great, great big noses, you know.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in fact, there's been, oh, you, you know, as a as a scientist researcher, you're gonna love this.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so they've actually um there have actually been studies done, you'll love this, where they've actually clipped the nerves to the nose to try to determine that question.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do they taste it?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do they smell it?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do they is there is there infrared, you know, is there some sort of you know, radar going on, you know?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do they because clearly the animals do have um um unbelievably perceptive discrimination in in what they're eating?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and so the question is, well, you know, how how do they determine it?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and so they've actually they've actually clipped things, and um, and the jury's still out.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: It it um they they're not sure uh how how much is direct sensual sensory, how much of it is eyeballs, are they seeing what they want?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a little bit because what they found is they can clip literally all the the like you know smell nerves, and they still select, they still select.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there's there's more going on here than right now than we understand.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's truly um a bit of a mystery and and marvelous um how how they make that selection.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, certainly they they do smell.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, for example, there's a repugnancy zone.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when a cow poops, um, that manure is coming out fairly acid.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhat acidic.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and so it makes an kind of an acidic zone uh around the cow pie.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's called the zone of repugnancy.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when the cows come back in and graze, you know, back over that same area, they will they will stay away from that um manure pat because that's where you know uh parasites and pathogens and things proliferate until that manure pat is completely broken down and and and metabolized in the soil, which lots of times can be even up to you know it can be over a year uh before that, you know.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is um uh lots of the the uh the cow pies um on successive grazing, the cow pies create grass tufts in the field.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what's amazing is that grass birds like meadowlarks, boat, mobelinks, all these grand birds, they then go and they they are actually attracted.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: They find these manure pats, lay their eggs next to the manure pat, knowing, I mean, I'm just uh surmising here, but they they understand that that area is going to be protected from the cows grazing long enough for their eggs to hatch and and and for their fledglings to get up and going before that tuft of grass is mowed again due to the zone of repugnancy around the manure path.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that so there's this wonderful symbiotic thing that happens uh when you know when the when the cow poops, and then it creates this this zone that not only protects the that the cow then doesn't come back and eat over her own manure, but also allows the wildlife that eats the bugs and the insects and things like that to allow them um uh uh uh an an opportun a time opportunity to actually lay their eggs and get their babies up and hatched before finally the cow is going to come back and say, Okay, the acid is gone, uh, you know, the repugnancy is gone, now I can eat this, but the birds have already had their babies and are up and going.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of cool.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's I mean, I'm kind of blown away as I'm listening to all this.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: I just keep thinking, nature is so brilliant.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that comes to mind is, you know, we tend to think that humans are just so intelligent, right?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That we're just the most intelligent creature.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it all depends on what type of intelligence are you trying to measure because they know all this, like you know, just like dogs being able to smell out cancer and stuff, like all these animals and trees and the worms, they have all of these skill sets that we're lacking, yet we think of them all as inferior intelligently, you know.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I would think we almost need to redefine what intelligence really is, you know, since especially on this program, we tend to go back to nature, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's model after nature.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like we need to do like um kind of like I did after I graduated from grad school and got really sick and realized that like most of what I learned was junk science.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't very helpful, full of bias and loopholes.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I almost need to do a dump, a data dump, and just go back and learn, you know, watch nature and learn what they do and follow them, you know, and we'll be healthier, happier, and more free.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and it also makes you realize the the the fact that all of creation, all of nature is just pulsing with sentience.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: This idea that, you know, if it if it looks more like me and talks more like me, you know, if it quacks or moves or clucks, um, it's more um uh you know anthropogenic.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and if it doesn't, you know, if it speaks in in pheromones or in smells, then it's not sentient.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, our our the microbes in our body are are interacting, you know, a quadrillion times a second with you know trades and and and commercial transactions going on.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the the the the rise of the rhizosphere of the roots of a of a plant um out in the you know in your garden or in the field, that rhizosphere is is pulsing with with microbial um exchanges, you know, and and I've often described this as the you know the Star Wars when you know when um Luke Skywalker goes to that uh that space cafe, you know, he's looking for a fast a fast vessel, and he first meets Han Solo, you know, and you got that band over there in the corner.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, you know, those two-headed, you know, you know, all those weird things.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the way I I that's that's the way I imagine what's going on in the soil, you know, it is all this, you know, this um this space cafe of of you know weird microbes um coming in and making their transactions in the in the cafe.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I have to admit, I've never actually visualized my microbes in the space cafe, but whatever floats your boat, you know.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Mine are like mine are at a day spa.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some are getting back rubs, some are listening to the music, you know, some are smelling roses, like you know.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: But no, no, that's awesome.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, Joel, we made it through two questions.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we did.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we did.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we just we just get we just get stuck.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's you know, it's um it's just so majestic.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so majestic.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and it doesn't do something justice to just, you know, give a give a two-part recipe.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, you gotta you gotta paint the context and and uh and get through it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that's I hope that's helpful to um you know to Jessica, and she'll she'll take heart and um and be able to move that bramble patch to and and meanwhile, um pick blackberries and eat them.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're yummy.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love blackberries.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wild blackberries to boot.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right, great.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's all the time we have for today, but we will pick up on the other questions.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do a part two of Joel's homesteading advice.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for joining us.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you as always, Joel, for your wisdom and for what you bring to the show, which is certainly something that I cannot do.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm truly grateful.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We will see you all next week.