Latest / The SME Stream / The Country 01/12/25: David Seymour talks to Jamie Mackay

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The Country 01/12/25: David Seymour talks to Jamie Mackay · The SME Stream

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: David Seymour is the Deputy Prime Minister. When he's not
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: doing that, he's the act party leader. I read a
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: story in the Herald this morning David about the government's
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Key we Save a Farm withdrawal plan. Raises sphares over
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: scheme credibility. Of course the government wants to lift key
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We Saver contributions. What's wrong with taking some of that
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: out to buy a farm.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't see any problem with it at all.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I've always made the point that compulsory key we Save
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: a compulsory super compulsory whatever, you have to have an
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: answer for where does that money come from? And it
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: comes from other savings and investment opportunities. If you force
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: people to put money into key we Saver, or of
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: course that takes away money that you could have been
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: using to pay debts on a farm, or that you
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: could have been using to invest in buying a second farm.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: If you're going really well, it means that people will
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: jump up and down and say, oh, look, there's all
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: this money in this fund because we forced everyone to
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: put their money into it. But when people do that,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: they often forget all of the other opportunities that people
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: gave up and this comes back to the old lesson
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: by Henry Hazlet in nineteen forty five. The good economist
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: looks at all the impacts on everyone in the long term.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: The bad economist looks only at the short term impacts
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: on some.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I take it that acts totally in support of raising
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: key we saver contributions from employers and employees.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: We're in favor of what the government's done, which is
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: to reduce the amount of taxpayer money that is going
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: into the key we saver because basically, the government's been
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: borrowing money on the international debt markets, giving it to
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: people five hundred bucks a year, so you can put
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: it back into the international debt markets and your kei
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: we saver, which has been a crazy thing to do
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: because as a retiree you just live in a country
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: that has more government debt. You know what I would.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: But what we did as a compromise there is say, well,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: because people will be worried about this reduction, we've increase
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: the amount of contributions required by employers and employees. So
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: in so far as it's a trade off that saves
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the taxpayer and ultimately saves the next generation from more
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: government debt. Yeh, we support that, but generally speaking, forcing
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: people to do more compulsory saving has been shown around
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: the world not to increase savings rates because it reduces
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: savings elsewhere, because the money has to come from somewhere.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: When will a government, either yours or the next lot
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: be brave enough to take a stand on the age
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: of eligibility for national super It would seem to me,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: on the face of it, to be the quickest fix
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: for some of our financial woes and this problem. You
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: move the age of our eligibility to sixty seven over
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: a period of time and save billions.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I say this every election, and I get the
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Jesus kicked out out of me because people get angry
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and say, you know, how dare you say that? So
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: in terms of bravery, as my grandfather used to say,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: you're either brave or stupid. But I've definitely done one
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: of them every election on this issue, because I think
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: honesty is an important value, and the honest truth is
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: that if this change is not made, then it's going
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: to be forced upon us. And the way that will
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: happen is there'll be an earthquake or a pandemic, or
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: a big flood or perhaps Heaven forbid on this show
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: a biosecurity issue, and the government of the day will
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: find itself in big trouble. It will go to the
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: international debt markets and must say, yeah, we're not sure
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: about you. Guys are going to put up your interest
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: rate because you're borrowed enough. And then with higher interest
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: rates it'll be even harder to balance the books. And
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: guess what they'll do. They'll say, oh, we think we've
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: got to put up your interest rates again. That's the
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: spiral that South American countries have a habit of getting into.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: And there's no law that says it can't happen there now.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: If and when that happens, one of the first things
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: they'll do is say, right, we're putting up the age
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: of super not you know, at two months a year
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: over the next twelve years. So it's manageable and people
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: can plan for it. We're doing it tomorrow. That is
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: what will happen. A similar thing happened when we went
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: from sixty to sixty five in the early nineties. In
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: a way, so I've always been honest say, guys, you know,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: we have fewer children, that means less tax payers. We
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: live longer. That means more super innuitance. That mathematical reality
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: is being confronted by countries all over the world that
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: are raising their ages. New Zealand cannot keep its head
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: in the sand. And I know there'll be people listening
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: saying we're not voting for that guy. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to run for office on a falsehood,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: which too many have for too long.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: This is a die in the ditch thing for winstance.
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  Speaker 1: He would walk across the aisle and go into government
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: with labor ahead of raising the age of eligibility for
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: national super So until such time as he no longer
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: isn't a position of power, we are stuck.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that may be true so far as it goes,
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  Speaker 2: but here's a bigger reality. The numbers need to add
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: up financially. You're talking about the political numbers. I'm worried
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: about the financial numbers for the long term good of
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: our country and that's what I'd urged the voters, who
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: are the truly powerful actors and an election to consider.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Have you been surprised at how well Chippy's capital gains
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: tax proposal has been received?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: No, because I wasn't aware it had been well received,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: and most people recognize that this country only succeeds because
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: we build it. And when a political party comes out
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: and says, hey, there's a shortcut. We'll just take money
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: off a builder and you don't have to do anything,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: you just get it for free, there will always be
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: a constituency for that. That's how you know the Greens
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: in tier party Mari and Labor and Bear. I say
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: it sometimes New Zealand first get into pour. However, you know,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: we actually want to see society that is successful, and
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: in order to do that, we need to keep the
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: values of building and making, not taking and destroying.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Monde I'm playing devil's advocate here, but most countries around
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the world do have a capital gains tax, a broader
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: tax bace than we have.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Well, at one point most countries had slavery, but that
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: wasn't a good idea, so we stopped. Just because a
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: lot of people do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Is chip be going to get much money out of
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: us capital gains tax? As capital gains a thing of
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the past, is it something that the boomers have enjoyed
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and the following generations aren't going to enjoy as much.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And if he can get his capital gains tax past
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: the post, gee, he's already allocated a hell of a
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: lot of spending to the proceeds.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Well, it'll be one of those dollars that get spent many,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: many times in the campaign. It's a solution to everything.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't generate as much money as people think,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: and that's why it'll expand because they have infinite needs
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: and they will need to extend it to more people.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: That's before you consider they'll be in a coalition with
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: the Greens and two Party Mari almost certainly part of
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: their mix, so that's going to put more pressure to
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: expand it. And I just say to people, if you
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: vote for a capital gains tax because you think it's
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: a tax that will go on other people, then shame
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: on you because you know sooner or later other people
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: becomes you and you wonder why you didn't speak up
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: when you had the chance.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: David Seymour, Deputy Prime Minister, Act Party Leader, thanks for
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: your time. We'll catch up once more before Christmas in
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: our final week of broadcast, and I'm just giving you
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: some advance warning here. You need to think of your
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: ag person of the year.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, can it be? It can't be a mart Cameron.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Is that worth the rule?
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: No, it can be whoever you want. It could be Marked,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: It could be Mark Patterson, although you're more likely to
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: vote for Mark Cameron, I'm sure. But anyhow you think
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: on your ag. Person of the Air will chat again
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your time.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks Joming