Latest / Cookbook Love Podcast / Episode 379: Cookbook Design, Art Direction & Homemade Pie with Laura Klynstra

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Episode 379: Cookbook Design, Art Direction & Homemade Pie with Laura Klynstra · Cookbook Love Podcast

0:02
You are listening to the Cookbook Love podcast with Maggie
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Green, episode number 3 79.
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Welcome to the Cookbook Love Podcast.
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A podcast that celebrates cookbook readers, buyers,
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collectors, writers and clubs.
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And now your.
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Cookbook author, culinary Dietician, and Cookbook writing Coach Maggie Green.
0:31
Hi everybody.
0:32
Welcome back to another episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
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We are in the heart of preparations for Christmas around here baking my
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holiday cookies, and that is one reason why I am so excited to bring you this
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episode today with Laura Klein Ttra.
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Laura is an award-winning author, senior art director for Revelle
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Books and a freelance graphic designer and photographer.
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Previously, Laura was an art director at Hyperion Books and Harper Collins
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Publishers in New York, and she is the author of the beautiful new
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book, the Homemade Pie Cookbook.
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This book contains a hundred pie tart and GT recipes for every season, but of
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course, as you can imagine today we're gonna talk specifically about some of
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the pies that are in the winter chapter.
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Today on the show, I also dive into Laura's experience as an art director.
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So anyone who is curious about how cookbooks are art directed from a
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traditional publishing perspective or a self-publishing perspective is going
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to want to tune into this episode.
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Lean in.
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Listen to what Laura has to say because she knows so much about how
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the design of a cookbook goes together.
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Laura is also the co-author and photographer of another book called
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Christmas Baking, a book called Gather and Gras, and she lives in Michigan
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with her family and a menagerie of dogs, cats, chickens, and ducks.
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So without further delay, let's dive into this interview with Laura Klein str.
2:09
Hi Laura.
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Welcome to the Cookbook Love podcast.
2:12
Hi.
2:13
Thanks for having me.
2:14
Yes.
2:14
Excited that you're here.
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Can't wait to talk all about your beautiful book, the Homemade Pie Cookbook.
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But before we get started, why don't you tell everybody a little bit
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about who you are and what you do?
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Um, I'm primarily an art director.
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My main job is designing book covers and also directing the
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art for other of other designers.
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Taught doing photo shoots and directing illustrators.
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Um, but I've, um.
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Kind of launched into also writing and designing and photographing cookbooks.
2:45
Yes.
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So it's been a fun, I, I mean, I learned so much in my career that, um, that
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I was able to apply to my own books.
2:53
Yes.
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So as an art director and designing book covers, let's
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talk a little bit about what.
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That specific person in the life of a new book does.
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A lot of people, of course, that listen to this show love cookbooks.
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They read them, might wanna write them, they collect them, but
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this is a job that we haven't specifically talked about on the show.
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So I'm excited that you're here to tell us a little bit about art direction and
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what it means in the life of a book.
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Two different things between say, a fiction book, which I
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also work on and a cookbook.
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So, we'll, we'll talk more about, uh, cookbooks for, for this, but
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I, I, I've also done a lot of, um, cover design for novels as well,
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which is just totally different.
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Um, but.
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For our direction for a cookbook, you're looking at not just the cover,
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but the entire interior and you're, you wanna have a through line with your
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photography that, that pulls together a beautiful package and you want that
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cover to also reflect all of that.
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So you're thinking of everything, um, in a cookbook that maybe you're
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not in a, when you're doing a novel, you're really only thinking about the
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cover if you're the designer, but you.
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You want the the type, the layout to be nice and clear and easy to follow, and
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you want those photos to be enticing.
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And in my case, I always want a photograph for every recipe.
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I don't want any because I'm a visual person.
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I want there to be a photo for everything.
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So in my case, I'm thinking about all of those things at once.
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In the beginning, before I start, you can't just go out there and just
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randomly shoot a couple photos or, um, yeah, you really wanna have a
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vision for it before you get started.
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And what, I pull together a mood board and, um, sometimes IP poke
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around on Pinterest to see what, um, what sort of feeling I wanna have.
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It's not even just photography, it's the food styling as well, like the gathering
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of props and making sure that everything sort of meshes and tells your story.
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For instance, like if you're doing a photo, like one of the photos in
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the book that I'm looking at right now is the Raspberry Lens Tart.
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Um, and you, you want that to sort of tell a story of Christmas.
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Uh, so we've got like, uh, confectionary sugar sort of spread, like sprinkled
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around almost looking like snow.
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It just, you, you wanna create this feeling of the season, in this case,
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a seasonal photo, um, and to also to make the food look delicious.
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And then put all of that together in a package that just makes sense and is easy
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for the reader to, um, understand and to, to, um, to also to, to want to make, yeah.
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Yeah.
5:37
So if someone is listening to this and they're thinking about maybe
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wanting to write a cookbook, they want to approach a traditional publisher
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when they're writing a proposal.
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If they have a vision for their book, is that something they should communicate to
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the publisher, or are publishers really not as interested in that as they are
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and them being the writer of the book?
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Oh, I think in a cookbook they are.
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I think, I think if you're writing a novel, I don't know that you need
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to put your vision of what, what you think the cover is at that point.
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But if you're writing a cookbook, yes.
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I think if you have photography, or even if you have a Pinterest board,
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this is what I want my photos to look like, this is my vision for the book.
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I think all of that is very relevant in that, um, a cookbook proposal.
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Yeah.
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And a vision board set up on Pinterest that they could perhaps provide a link to.
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Mm-hmm.
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Then they could click over.
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And look at the, look at the mood board, and you mentioned the font,
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uh, the photos, the props, the food styling, and all of those things working
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together to tell the story of the book.
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And it just seems to me that this means that art direction for every book is so
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specific, based on what the book is about.
6:46
Yeah.
6:46
Yep.
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And so I've done photography for other people's books as well as my own.
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And so I approached that.
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Differently.
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I've tried to make the, you know, to shoot in a way that is
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the vision of the, the author.
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Like, I, I tend to be a collector of antiques and different things, so
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my photos are really busy, but I've shot for people that are a little
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bit wanted, a little bit more modern, contemporary, clean, you know, we're
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talking linens and creams and whites and neutrals and those sorts of things.
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So you wanna, um, you wanna have a, a style.
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That kind of flows through your book.
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And as a art director and a designer, I need to be able to do other
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people's styles, not just my own.
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Yeah.
7:28
So, um, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I, so, um, definitely then including a, a vision for a book.
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And if someone is self-publishing, um, what do you recommend to
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someone who's self-publishing regarding art direction and photos
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and styling, uh, for their book?
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Um.
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I feel like you almost need to have at least a designer in, you know,
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that you need to hire as a, as a contractor unless you, unless you're
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really familiar with design yourself.
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Um, I think that most, you know, people that are really savvy on Instagram could
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probably do their own food styling.
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I mean, if you've got a lot of experience mm-hmm.
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Doing photos on Instagram, you could do your, your styling
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and your photography yourself.
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But I think you might need a, a graphic designer to pull.
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If you're self-publishing, to pull all of those, those elements together and really,
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you know, make, make everything mesh.
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Yeah.
8:22
So for nonfiction books, cookbooks even seem different to me than
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other types of nonfiction books.
8:30
Yes.
8:31
Yes.
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It's like a lifestyle, lifestyle book.
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Is any lifestyle book, even a, a home decoration book is totally
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different than another nonfiction book.
8:39
Yeah.
8:39
Talking about a book that's fully illustrated and in full
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color is, is always just a much more intense visual process.
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Than, than say a, another kind of nonfiction.
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And I even think on then on top of like a lifestyle or a home, like a decor
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book, the recipes on top of that make it even a unique book unto itself as well.
8:59
Yeah.
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And writing one is certainly a unique process because you're also
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testing and testing and testing.
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Yes.
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Because you want, you don't want just them to be beautiful photos.
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You want them to work for everybody who, who goes home and tries to make them.
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You wanna make sure that that everything is clear and that.
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That they have successful recipes, otherwise what good is it?
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Exactly.
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So let's talk then about, you also do art direction for
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fiction books, so for novels.
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So let's dive into that just a little bit so that people can understand,
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uh, what you do mostly for a novel.
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Then when it comes to art direction.
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So we, when we get a, um, see, I do, um, I work for a publisher, so
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I, I have, I do that, but I also freelance for other publishers.
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So it's a little bit different process, but for when I'm, when
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I'm working on my own, for my own company, um, I'll get a brief.
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And the author will tell me what the she or he thinks the cover should look like.
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Um, for, just to take an example, like a historical fiction, world War
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II Fiction, they're, I'm gonna get a description of what the character
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looks like, um, and then maybe a little bit about what the character is like
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and where, where the character is.
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Like, especially World War ii Fictionists, quite often in Paris or London or some
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sort of, um, beautiful European city.
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And then I'm gonna go start looking for bits and pieces, and
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I'm gonna put those together.
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It's never usually like I find a photo that's perfect.
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And then so it's, there's a lot of Photoshop work involved.
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Um, there's one cover I worked on, uh, called Lilac Girls, which was um, has
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sold over a million copies and a big New York Times bestseller, uh, that one or
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has multiple pieces that I put together.
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And they were historical photographs and then they were.
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Put together and then hand colorized so that there's color to the photo.
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Yeah.
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So again, you want, you know, a big, beautiful type.
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You want it to just kind of be something that somebody wants to
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pick up and just wants to own.
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So it has to be a, a good, a good novel color is gonna also be beautiful, I think.
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Yeah.
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So especially women's fiction.
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Yeah.
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'cause that's really, uh.
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So different than a cookbook because that one piece of art on the cover and
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the, the font that you choose, the type, you know, the way it looks, that really
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draws people into the story as well.
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But that's like the only thing that you have in a novel versus a cookbook.
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You know, you could page to a cookbook and see so many different pages.
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Photographs, yes.
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But I think there's, there's a similarity I feel like too, because
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there's a sort of poetry to, um.
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To designing a, a book cover.
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I think that just, it does tell a story in a way, like in, in a, in a, it
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conveys a mood, I guess is maybe more of what it's doing than telling a story.
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Because I don't, I don't ever want my covers like fiction covers
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to be literal, like, oh, this is an actual scene from the book.
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You wanna give the reader a feel for what they're going to get, and that's why,
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that's why so many World War II novels.
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Have similar features to their covers.
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Mm-hmm.
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Because they want people to be like, oh yeah, I, I know what this
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book is because I can just see it.
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'cause it's like a branded look of what this is, what a World
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War II fiction novel looks like.
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But you also want it to be unique enough that it stands out.
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So it's, it's a. It's a, it's a, it's a bit of a chore, but, um, it's, yeah.
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No, I think it's fascinating because you're looking for a mood
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or a feeling for both of them.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's just two completely different kinds of books.
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Yep.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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And that's why I like, I love to do the photography for my cookbooks because
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I do, I do feel like that I'm doing.
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Like when I'm laying out my table, I feel like it's a little bit like
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designing a cover where I'm taking bits and pieces from, but they're just
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physical, real things that I'm taking from different places and laying them out.
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Whereas when I'm doing a book cover, I'm taking bits and pieces
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from the world of photography and putting them together in Photoshop.
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Yeah.
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And when you're, it's kind of like a big collage.
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Yeah.
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I think that that, that's right.
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So you, in your book, um, the Homemade Pie cookbook, was this published by
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the publisher that you work for then?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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This one is, yep.
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Yeah.
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So published by the publisher you work for, you typically just do the art
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direction for this, but in this book, of course, it's completely different
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because you not only did the art direction and all the photography,
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but you wrote the book as well.
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Yeah.
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So it was a, it was, it was a busy year.
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Yes.
13:15
Yes.
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And, uh, was this your idea to propose this book to them, or did they approach
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you about it, or how, what's the story of the actual publication of the book?
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Well, um, I published two books with Skyhorse Publishing before this.
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And the editor that I worked with at Skyhorse asked me, she's like, you
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know, I wish I, I had a pie cookbook.
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So I'm like, okay, I'll write a proposal for a pie cookbook,
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which I was gonna send to them.
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But then an editor at Revelle, part of Baker Publishing Group, um,
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said, I wanna see that proposal too.
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'cause I, we worked, she and I worked together on other cookbooks.
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So, um.
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She said, I wanna see it too.
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So she did, she took a look at it, um, and she took it to pub
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board and they decided to take it.
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So, and they offered a better advance than the other publishers.
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So that's, that's where it landed.
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Yeah.
14:05
I wonder if you would have been able to art direct.
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If you had published with Skyhorse?
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Oh yeah, they can because they, they have very low level.
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They, they're, they, um, they don't put as much money into the, the art
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and the design, so they're happy to get free design and free free art.
14:24
Yeah.
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So it would've been fine if you They would've, yeah, they would've let me.
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They, we, the other two books I did all the design and the, um.
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And the photography report as well.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:33
So this book is all about Pie a hundred pie tart and goulette
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recipes for every season.
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So let's dive in to talk a little bit about the book and, um, your
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journey from idea to book you.
14:47
Um, tell us how you, you know, you proposed it, but what's your thought
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process when you start a cookbook project?
14:55
So I always start with the table of contents, um, which is
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basically a roadmap for a cook, I mean for, I guess for any book.
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But for a cookbook, it really is like, and I usually start with a hundred,
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a hundred recipes is usually my goal.
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I did a hundred recipes in Christmas, um, baking, and then
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this one has a hundred pies.
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It has more recipes than that because there's crust and topping recipes,
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but so I started with those a hundred pies and I divided 'em into 25.
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Or 25 recipes per season.
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Um, and then I just, you know, I just try to get creative with what
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those pies might be in each season.
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And I developed maybe 10 to 12 of those recipes before I did the proposal.
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Like, so here's my, here's my list of my goal, list of this is how,
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these are the recipes I wanna do.
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And some of 'em I tried and didn't, um, I didn't like how
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they turned out, so then I would.
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Come up with a different one for, for that.
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But my, that, that first a hundred recipes were, was my basic, my roadmap.
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Um, and then when I did my proposal, because I'm a designer and photographer,
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I did a design for the proposal.
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So when I actually turned in the proposal, it wasn't just a Microsoft Word
16:04
document, it was a laid out, designed, um.
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Uh, the design, PDF, which I did an InDesign, so I did the photography
16:13
for those, I think 10 to 12 recipes.
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The recipes themselves and the design.
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And then I also had to write other information, marketing information and,
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and other proposal information in there.
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But, um, but I, I made my proposal, very visual.
16:28
Yeah.
16:28
So if someone's listening to this and they want to pitch an idea to a publisher,
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but they don't plan to be the designer or the photographer, what do you recommend
16:36
they do in terms of their proposal?
16:40
Well, I think just be very, very clear about what's going to be in the book.
16:45
I would, I would have a full.
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Table contents for one thing, and then some of the sample recipes, but also that
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maybe a visual, a visual board of what you would want, like maybe on Pinterest, what
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you think your recipe should look like.
16:57
Or if you are a, in somebody who's posting on Instagram to, to include some of the
17:03
photos that you've shot of your recipes.
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A publisher's gonna know that, that maybe you're not a professional
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photographer and that's okay.
17:11
They just wanna see they, I mean, I think just seeing, oh, this is
17:14
what this recipe looks like is.
17:15
Is helpful for the publisher.
17:17
Yeah.
17:18
Yeah.
17:18
I think one of the most exciting things about writing a book is if
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someone's listening and you don't like design or photography being.
17:28
Traditionally published means that you have access to someone like you mm-hmm.
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Who helps to bring the book to life.
17:35
Right.
17:35
So I just, I don't want anybody to ever think that they couldn't do a book
17:39
like this because they can't do art direction or design or photography.
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Because that's why someone like you exists in the publishing world.
17:48
Yeah.
17:49
Most cases you are not going to be the photographer of your book.
17:52
Yeah.
17:52
Most of them.
17:53
Yeah.
17:53
Yeah.
17:54
So I, I think a designed proposal if you're pitching yourself as that
17:58
person, but certainly not necessary if you're, uh, just going to be the
18:03
one who's gonna be writing the book.
18:05
Um, correct.
18:05
And then letting a expert take over in terms of the art direction and the design.
18:11
Yeah.
18:12
So let's talk your book concept.
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Um, you talk about there being three parts to every pie.
18:19
Let's discuss the parts to a pie and what you.
18:23
Might recommend that people know about these different parts.
18:27
Okay, so the book is organized by those parts.
18:31
The first, the first major chapter is, uh, all about crusts.
18:35
And because this is not just pies, it's also tarts.
18:38
There's tart crust.
18:40
Um, which are more like a shortbread cookie.
18:42
So it's a different, totally different process to make a tart
18:45
crust than it is to make a pie crust.
18:47
So there's just a big variety of crust recipes and also
18:50
all the how-to information.
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That's your base of all, of any pie or tart is, is the crust.
18:56
And then there's a hundred pie pie recipes, um, in the middle of the
19:00
book, which is the bulk of the book.
19:02
And that's, that would be considered your fillings.
19:05
Then I also do a chapter that maybe you don't, don't typically think you
19:10
need for a pie, but there's a whole chapter on garnishing and toppings for
19:14
pies, and that's just a way to elevate your pie pies, both with, um, with
19:19
how they taste, like cream cheese, whipped cream and chocolate sauce and
19:22
different things, but also how they look.
19:24
So there's a way to, I mean, we, we often think of cakes as being decorated,
19:29
but you can also decorate pies.
19:31
And I give you a lot of tips on how to make those, especially this time of
19:35
year, you kind of want a little bit of extra flare on your, on your, whatever
19:39
you're bringing to your holiday parties.
19:41
Um, like things like sugared cranberries.
19:43
If you top, you know, a tart with sugar, cranberries, and, and rosemary, it has
19:50
like this beautiful Christmas look to it.
19:52
Um, there's just lots of little tips and tricks for that kind of thing.
19:56
Yeah, and I think one thing that the photography in this book in particular
20:00
allows people to see is how these little flourishes really do take a pie,
20:06
such as a cranberry pie, and it adds.
20:09
Such a nice element to add the sugared cranberries and the rosemary to really
20:13
elevate the look of the pie through some very simple things that people can do.
20:18
So, um, I think for this book, having the photography really
20:22
gives some, um, inspiration.
20:25
We first eat with our eyes.
20:27
So, um, having a, a beautiful, um, I mean, don't, I don't wanna get anybody to think
20:32
they have to be perfect, but it's nice to do a little bit of extra flare if you can.
20:36
Yeah.
20:36
Now some people have a roadblock about pie and making pie crust.
20:41
Uh, can we talk about that a little bit?
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
Well I think one of the things is we, you know, we, a lot of us grow up
20:47
learning how to make cakes and cookies.
20:50
Um, and they have, it's just, it's a different process to that.
20:54
When you're mixing a cake, cake or a cookie dough, it's always gonna be,
20:57
you're creaming the butter with the, with the sugar and the eggs to start.
21:01
Um, the thing that you need to remember when making a pie crust, not a tart crust,
21:06
but a pie crust, is that the butter has to be cold and your goal is not to cream
21:10
it together, but to cut it into pieces.
21:13
And so there's different ways that you can do that.
21:15
But if you.
21:17
Take care to keep your butter cold and just follow a couple of simple steps.
21:22
You can make delicious pie, homemade pie dough pretty easily.
21:27
Um, one of the things I do and when I make a lot of pie dough is I use the, um,
21:33
pastry attachment on my KitchenAid mixer.
21:36
Which cuts butter instead of creaming butter.
21:39
You can do it with a food processor or you can also do it by hand or with one
21:43
of those old fashioned pastry blenders.
21:44
Mm-hmm.
21:45
But I don't, I don't like those pastry blenders.
21:47
'cause it feels like the butter always gets cut stuck inside those and you're
21:50
like kind of, but the pastry attachment on the KitchenAid is the fastest.
21:54
Best way I've ever found to do pie dough because I think the food
21:59
processor over processes your butter.
22:01
It ends up getting to be too small, whereas this, this attachment,
22:05
you, you want some lumps of butter still in your dough when you're,
22:09
when you're making a pie crust.
22:10
And that this, this attachment makes it easy to get there,
22:14
but otherwise do it by hand.
22:16
Um.
22:17
And then the other thing I think people forget to do is they'll go straight from
22:21
making their dough to rolling it out.
22:23
You need to get that butter cold again.
22:26
Um, so you wrap it up, put it in the refrigerator and get it cold.
22:30
And then when you first get outta the refrigerator, it might be too hard
22:33
to roll out, but you're, you're kind of looking for that moment when, when
22:37
it's just soft enough to roll out, but not, so I think it's like there are,
22:42
I think that maybe why people don't like to do their own crust because it.
22:46
There are a few little tips and tricks and temperature and, you know, it's, it's
22:50
a little bit fussy and it's messy, but I do think it's a better finished product.
22:56
It's certainly, if you look at the ingredients and some of the packaged
22:59
pie dough, um, it's definitely, yeah.
23:03
Um, healthier.
23:04
I mean, you can call it healthy, but you know, there's no processed anything in it.
23:09
Yeah.
23:09
It's basically flour, oils or anything like that, so, yeah.
23:13
Yeah.
23:13
Butter, flour, salt.
23:15
Yeah.
23:16
Whole Whole Foods, but maybe not the healthiest Whole
23:18
Foods, but still Whole Foods.
23:20
Yeah.
23:20
Yeah.
23:21
Not a lot of the, the additives, like you said.
23:23
Right.
23:23
And I think keeping everything cold, um, makes a world of difference.
23:27
And I think, um, pie crust is something that.
23:31
I have learned how to do, and I think the secret for me was finding a recipe that I
23:36
was comfortable with, I got good results with, and I just continue to use that
23:41
recipe for pie crust if I'm making savory pie or a sweet pie for just an all you
23:46
know, butter pie crust that I know works.
23:49
And I think it's just like anything else.
23:52
I think you probably practice.
23:53
Practice.
23:54
Mm-hmm.
23:54
And being, the other thing I do too is I, I'll make, um, four, I usually
23:58
do a minimum of four pie doughs, a ti at one thing, and then I'll wrap
24:02
them and freeze whatever I don't need at that particular recipe.
24:06
Yeah.
24:06
Because it's just so nice to be able to pull one disc of
24:09
dough out and be ready to go.
24:11
Yeah.
24:12
That's great.
24:13
That's a great tip.
24:14
So let's talk about perfection then.
24:16
You mentioned it briefly, but.
24:18
What you have a message about perfection related to pies?
24:24
Yeah.
24:24
I, I like, I called it, um, rustic Beautiful, which means, um, in my, my
24:30
mind of how I'm looking at how to make pies is it needs to look handmade.
24:36
So don't worry about it looking perfect.
24:38
If it looks perfect, it's not gonna look handmade.
24:40
You want.
24:42
Whoever you're serving your pie to, to know that you did not just go
24:45
to the store and buy it or that you didn't use a factory made pie crust.
24:49
So don't, don't go for, for perfection because if you do, you're gonna be
24:53
disappointed because it's almost when you're baking a pie, the crust like morphs
24:59
in the oven and, and there's, you know, things are just never gonna be perfect.
25:03
So my si my, you can make beautiful pies, but don't aim for perfect
25:08
pies is my, that's my message.
25:10
And I think in your photography you brought the rustic beautiful and pie's
25:17
looking handmade through in the photos.
25:22
Um, you can, yeah, there were a couple.
25:24
I was like, this isn't quite the best, but you know what,
25:26
I'm just photograph it anyway.
25:28
This is real.
25:29
Exactly.
25:30
That's how, that's how they actually turn out sometimes.
25:32
And you use, um, cast iron in some of the shots.
25:37
Of course GT's shaped without any particular pie, dish.
25:41
Mm-hmm.
25:42
Um, you mentioned the antiques, forks, and pie servers and, uh,
25:46
really gave it a feel for, um.
25:50
Pies from a home kitchen and um, yeah.
25:53
Yeah.
25:53
Beautiful ways to, um, yeah, present them and simply as well, and let the
25:58
pie really be the star of the show.
26:02
Mm-hmm.
26:02
You have other types of pies though, other than just, you know, the
26:05
kinds of pies we might think about.
26:06
Tell us about some of the other styles like the gts or just like the Yep.
26:11
Yeah.
26:11
GTS and I see oatmeal, cream pie.
26:14
Oh yeah, because I was doing a hundred pies.
26:16
I was like, you know what?
26:17
I wanna do a couple.
26:18
There's a whoopi pie and a, and an oatmeal cream pie.
26:20
I'm like, they're technically pies, but, um, but they're kind of cookies.
26:24
They're kind of sandwich cookies as well.
26:26
So there's that.
26:27
But I also did a bunch of ice cream pies.
26:29
I thought that was kind of a fun.
26:30
Um, and those, those have all homemade ice cream recipes in 'em.
26:34
You could, if you didn't have an ice cream machine, you could, um,
26:38
you could swap in like a vanilla ice cream probably for some of them.
26:42
But, um, but yeah, I, I tried to think outside of the pie box when I would
26:47
'cause a hundred is so many pies.
26:49
And so sometimes I would think about different cookies that I liked.
26:51
Um, what kind of like the Linzer, the Linzer Tart was based on a linzer
26:56
cookie recipe that I make for Christmas.
26:58
Um, so I kind of converted the cookie dough recipe into a crust D dough,
27:03
and then the filling is raspberry jam.
27:05
And so it's, um, yeah, I always, everything was, um, like there's
27:10
a creamsicle chiffon pie that's supposed to taste like the creamsicle.
27:14
Um.
27:15
Uh, frozen treats that you could get or used to be able to get.
27:18
I'm not sure if they still call 'em creamsicles or not.
27:20
Yeah.
27:21
But, um, I, yeah, I like to use a lot of inspiration of other desserts to
27:24
put into, um, there's a cinnamon roll, blueberry apple pie, which has like
27:29
the, these little, they're crust, but they look like little cinnamon rolls.
27:32
Those are, it's a really cute one.
27:35
So we're in the holiday season now and wonder if you would maybe give us some,
27:40
um, suggested pies for this time of year.
27:44
Uh, with Christmas and the winter holidays, um, just around the corner.
27:49
Yep.
27:49
There's, um, we talked, we briefly talked about the Cranberry Tart.
27:52
It's called a white chocolate cranberry tart.
27:54
That one is a really beautiful one to bring to a party, especially if
27:57
you do the, um, sugar cranberries.
27:59
Um, there's a cranberry apple pie.
28:01
I did a lot of different versions of apple pie because I think that
28:04
it's kind of our classic, but like, how can we make them different?
28:07
And when you put the cranberries in it, it turns the entire interior of that pie red.
28:11
Which is it's, and it's all, it's very tart because of the cranberries.
28:15
It's a fun way of using cranberries.
28:17
There's a spiced gingerbread tart, which is kind of like got a gingerbread cookie.
28:23
Crust.
28:24
Um, and then a creamy filling.
28:26
The peppermint ice box pie is really pretty and super easy.
28:29
Like it's, it doesn't even have that many ingredients.
28:31
It is, it's just like, kind of more like whipping, like whipping cream
28:35
and, and um, and cream cheese and then adding the, um, the peppermint extract.
28:41
And then I add a little bit of pink to it.
28:43
So it has a, you know, really pretty, um.
28:48
And then I turned, uh, magic bars, which I think are a typical, like,
28:51
it's like a staple, um, bar recipe that people make at the holidays.
28:56
Quite often I turned that into a pie.
28:58
So it's similar to the, the, the bars, but there's the like kind of a cookie bottom
29:02
to it, and it has a graham cracker crust.
29:04
And that's, that just does to me, that always reads holiday
29:08
because we always have made that.
29:10
And then I, I mentioned before the lens or tart, that's another one that's, um.
29:14
A good holiday pie and all of these can be like, you know, garnished up and just
29:20
look really beautiful on a holiday spread.
29:23
Yeah.
29:23
And you have a lot of nice tips for, uh, with a pie dough making lattice tops.
29:31
Mm-hmm.
29:31
Braided edges.
29:33
Yep.
29:33
There's some of that in the crust chapter.
29:35
There's like some how-tos and just some general ideas of
29:38
what you can do to, to, um.
29:41
To make your pies a little bit more special.
29:43
But again, don't try to make 'em perfect, just yes.
29:46
Yeah.
29:46
Have some, and again, the photos can really add some inspiration for everyone
29:50
to, um, even cutting out shapes that match the, in, maybe the ingredients
29:55
in the pie to decorate the top.
29:58
Uh, a lot of really, um, neat ways to elevate again, the
30:02
look of them, um, without then.
30:05
And I think that you did a great job balancing the, um.
30:09
The look of them without them being perfect.
30:11
It's, uh, definitely, I love like what you said, the rustically beautiful pie.
30:17
Yeah.
30:17
Rusty, beautiful.
30:18
When I started approaching this, because I, you know, as you're, as you as a visual
30:22
person, you want everything to be perfect.
30:25
And I said, you know what?
30:25
I have to come up with some way to.
30:27
To make this possible for me to do it because I knew I
30:30
couldn't make perfect pies.
30:32
I'm like, there are people out there that can, there's people that are just
30:35
like, but to me when I, if you want your crust to really hold, when you
30:39
bake it, it has to have more flour in it, and then it doesn't taste as good.
30:44
Like my experience is when, when I make a crust that even, or when
30:48
I make a cookie that will hold its shape, it doesn't taste good.
30:52
So it's more important that it tastes good than it looks perfect.
30:56
Right.
30:57
For sure.
30:58
So you get that balance of butter and flour, right.
31:00
And for taste, not for physical appearance.
31:04
Yeah.
31:05
So writing a cookbook means you have to develop and test the recipes.
31:11
Tell us a little bit about what it was like developing and recipe testing.
31:14
A hundred pie recipes.
31:17
It was busy and there was a lot of, um, pie eating at, at my house.
31:21
Um, and then it, it became kind of a standard situation where once
31:25
the pie came out, everybody was like, was that one we can eat?
31:29
Or is that one that's gonna go get photographed?
31:32
And then once it got photographed, then people could eat it.
31:34
But, um, there were some that were just for tasting to figure
31:38
out if it was working and some that were, but it was a constant.
31:42
Constant pie Festival at this house for, um, over a year.
31:47
Yeah.
31:48
But some of them, some of them are based on other things,
31:52
um, that I already know work.
31:54
So then it's like kind of a combination of different parts.
31:58
So those were easier to develop.
32:00
Develop, because I've already worked with like, maybe the, the um, for
32:04
instance, there's a peanut butter cup pie, and the base of the pie is kind
32:09
of like those peanut butter bars.
32:11
So, and I've made those many times, so I have kind of a
32:14
note that that's what works.
32:15
And then the top is like a chocolate mousse, and I've made that
32:19
before and so I know what works.
32:21
And I just, with that one, I'm more working on the scale
32:24
of how much we need of that.
32:25
I already know that this, you know, these combination of ingredients
32:30
with this, this process will work.
32:32
I just need to scale it to the right amount for a pie.
32:35
But, um, some of them are completely.
32:38
Like, I'm just guessing.
32:39
So like some of those are failures and you have to start
32:42
over and it's just, yeah, right.
32:45
So they're not all hard, but some of 'em are hard and some of 'em just.
32:48
Just get cut because they're like, nah, it's just not worth it.
32:51
It's not working.
32:52
But yeah, I think that's important to point out because not everything always
32:55
makes the cut, and that's the purpose of going through the development of something
32:59
is you, you truly wanna have recipes in the end result that you know people are
33:03
going to enjoy and get good results with.
33:05
And, uh, the amount of work they put into something that's worth it on the end.
33:10
You also have savory pies.
33:11
Why don't you talk a little bit about the savory pies in every chapter
33:14
and, um, how you work those in.
33:17
So those were probably the, the easier ones to work in because they
33:20
became dinner when I was making them.
33:23
So I was able to, um, to double double those up as as, um, as a meal.
33:29
But, um, those are very popular too for people that have, have
33:33
tasted the pies in this, this book.
33:35
A lot of people love the, the savory ones.
33:37
Um, for the winter chapter, there's a potato bacon Grier Gillette, which is
33:42
a great side to bring to any party.
33:45
Um, there's also a sausage ricotta pie, which is kind of like a pizza, but
33:51
it's like, like a deep dish pizza made with pie crust instead of pie dough.
33:56
Um, everybody loves that one too.
33:57
Um, there's a cranberry Bri skillet Gillette, which is good
34:00
for like a charcuterie board.
34:03
Um, serve it with a bunch of other things for like maybe a New Year's Eve party.
34:09
The other, some of the other ones are just like trying to take care, take advantage
34:12
of the seasonal, uh, seasonal vegetables.
34:16
There's a corn, um, it's a tomatillo and corn skillet gt.
34:22
That's really, really good.
34:23
Um, I base that one on one of my favorite, um, enchilada recipes.
34:29
So, um, and then there's a, uh, a, uh.
34:32
Asparagus gt, which is nice 'cause like in the, in spring, I live in Michigan where
34:38
we get really cold winters and the first thing that comes up is the asparagus.
34:43
And so it's nice to, we get something fresh that that is.
34:48
That, that one's a fun one to make in the spring.
34:50
Yeah.
34:51
Great.
34:51
Those all sound delicious.
34:53
So as you're going through this, um, at, in the meantime, you're also
34:56
working a full-time job, you're probably doing some posting on social media.
35:01
Um, not enough.
35:02
That's, that's one of my things I think.
35:03
I swear, I think people, I don't know how people can post
35:06
so many things on social media.
35:08
Maybe, maybe they don't have full times jobs on top of it all, but.
35:12
It's, uh, that's always a challenge for people that are working and writing
35:16
cookbooks, uh, to post on social media and to, uh, build, build the brand.
35:22
But any, um, any tips for anyone who's thinking about writing a
35:27
cookbook that you might have?
35:29
You mean for like balancing the time?
35:31
Yeah, balancing time.
35:32
Thinking about their idea.
35:34
Um.
35:35
Um, I, um, I guess one, one of my tips would be just to start, like
35:39
if you've got an idea, just start.
35:40
Do, you don't have to do the whole thing, just do a couple of
35:43
the recipes, develop them, take photos and just, just get started.
35:46
Because sometimes I think we have a huge block about starting something,
35:50
like we think, oh, it's too big.
35:51
I can't do it.
35:52
Just, uh, the thing about a cookbook is you can do, you can
35:55
tackle it one recipe at a time.
35:57
Yeah.
35:58
Just.
35:59
What I ended up doing was I had to take PTO to, to do my photography for
36:04
some of these because I needed the, the daylight and the weekends just weren't
36:08
enough to do the whole whole thing.
36:11
So I was taking time off from work to work, but that was just, I think
36:16
you have to be, you know, you have to be a little bit of a workaholic
36:19
if you're gonna do a book and.
36:21
A full-time job.
36:22
Yeah.
36:23
And be the art director and photographer for the book also.
36:26
'cause you know, if you're just writing and working on the recipes,
36:28
you still have to bake them and, you know, make sure they all work.
36:32
But, uh, you, it's almost like you took a break from your work and
36:38
took PTO to do the work that you would've been doing as the publisher,
36:42
you know, as the art director.
36:44
Yeah.
36:44
Yeah.
36:44
I'm doing like all my, I'm doing my day job as.
36:49
As freelance as way.
36:52
Yeah.
36:52
Yeah.
36:53
But I think just getting started does help.
36:55
I think.
36:55
Um, you started with a table of contents.
36:59
Like you said, you started developing some recipes, taking some pictures.
37:02
Once you can start to kind of see it taking shape, um, narrowing down what
37:07
you're going to work on, I think it does really make it a lot more manageable and
37:11
doable because you have a better vision.
37:14
Yeah.
37:14
For what, for what you might want to do.
37:15
And again, and I think if you tackle it one recipe at a time,
37:18
it's, it's a different, it, it just seems more manageable to me.
37:23
Than like writing a novel would feel like, to me, reading a novel.
37:27
It's such a great, such a great tip though.
37:29
But I think, I guess if you wrote a novel, it's like, okay, you know, the next scene
37:33
that might take place or the next event.
37:35
It's really just a matter of focusing on that, I think.
37:38
And writing about that.
37:39
I heard it said once someone was, um, caring for maybe an ill family member and
37:44
they wrote a story about it and they said they just really took it hour by hour.
37:48
That was all they could really do.
37:49
And I think that that just goes to show us that.
37:53
In any big thing that feels so big.
37:57
Um, just the next, the next step, the next thing, the next recipe,
38:00
the next hour, it, and that.
38:02
If we follow that and we then we do the next hour and the next recipe,
38:07
it does eventually builds momentum.
38:10
We have the compounding effect of getting work done and it feels so
38:14
much better actually to do that than to, uh, be blocked by starting
38:20
something that we think feels big.
38:22
Yeah, and I think, and I think you wanna do something that you love
38:25
too, like work on a book that, that has recipes that you love.
38:29
And, and for me, I love the visuals so.
38:32
That was, you know, that's, it's part of the recipe development, what it
38:36
looks like to me, for me, and I, I get all stressed out while I'm doing
38:42
it, but when I'm done and I have that photo, I'm like, that's my, my moment
38:45
where I feel like this is all worth it.
38:49
Yeah.
38:49
Um, to do.
38:51
And because I, I do love all those visuals and, and.
38:55
Yeah, it's, it's beautiful.
38:57
That's a really beautiful book.
38:58
Now I can tell with some of your photos if you maybe wanna talk about this one
39:01
aspect for people in case they're doing their own photography or they're maybe
39:06
working on a self-publishing project.
39:08
And that's the concept of using photos as a background on a page and leaving space.
39:13
Yeah.
39:14
So I dunno if you have any tips or if you can kind of explain what
39:16
I was just trying to describe.
39:19
Yeah.
39:20
So, um.
39:23
Even I having, yeah, it's basically like, yeah, like your pie dough recipes.
39:26
You have like a pie in the corner, but you can tell that the background
39:29
is, it's the page, it's something.
39:31
Yes.
39:32
Yes.
39:33
So, um, for, for those kinds of things, if you think that you might wanna,
39:37
and this is one of those things, again, that helps if you're both
39:40
the designer and the photographer.
39:43
So I knew which.
39:45
Photo, which photos I needed to have extra white background for because
39:51
I, and I knew how much, because I knew where the type was gonna go.
39:54
As a matter of fact, when I was designing this, I was doing some of the
39:57
photography at the same time, which.
40:01
It's not something that everybody's gonna be able to do, but if you know,
40:05
for instance, that you might want type to go on top of the background, you just
40:10
kind of have to back off from that photo.
40:12
Have you need like a white marble background?
40:16
Um, I also use a white, um, a, it's like an old table that I got from a vintage,
40:22
um, from an antique market, and then I painted white and then roughed up a little
40:26
bit so you can see some texture on it.
40:29
Um, but you're gonna want, if you wanna have type on top of a photo,
40:33
you're gonna want a pretty white, you know, fairly white space.
40:39
Um, or something completely dark.
40:41
Um, which I don't know if I did that in this book because I don't, I think this
40:45
is more of a brighter background book.
40:47
Yeah.
40:47
Yeah.
40:47
You can have like a black background and knock type out, like white type on
40:51
top of black, but I would recommend.
40:53
For starting to, to stick with white whiteish backgrounds, but you wanna have
40:57
some texture in there for, otherwise people won't even know it's, you know?
41:00
Right.
41:00
But yeah.
41:00
One thing I don't like to see in a cookbook is like a little square to, I
41:06
mean, there are some, like, I have that with my tip, with my, you know, processes.
41:10
There's squares, but like, you have a recipe and then there's a little
41:13
square photo, um, of the pie or something you want, I, I want that.
41:18
That photo to blend into the whole page design.
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
Yeah.
41:22
It looks beautiful the way you did it.
41:23
You also have a great tip section, and this might be something
41:26
that we can, um, kind of wrap up talking about the book related to.
41:30
And that is if you wanna gift homemade pies.
41:33
Um, and a lot of times this time of the year, people will gift
41:36
Christmas cookies or cookies mm-hmm.
41:39
And pack 'em in a box.
41:39
But you have some really nice tips for how to gift pie.
41:43
Yeah, well, you can buy boxes online to start with.
41:47
The other thing that you could do, if you wanted to do, um, multiple, if you were
41:51
giving, giving away to multiple people, you could create a pie sampler box.
41:56
So then you would, um, you would, I recommend selecting pies that cut
41:59
well, because some of 'em, you know, like, it's like an apple pie maybe,
42:02
or a cherry pie might just kind of.
42:05
If you try to make pieces of it, it might just kind of flow all over
42:08
the, the, um, the container, right?
42:11
So you wouldn't wanna do that, but you, you select pies.
42:14
That would be good for that.
42:15
The other thing is you can do like mini pies, uh, wrap them in, in, um, like
42:20
a nice, um, not like, yeah, like an acetate type and with a ribbon on it.
42:25
Um, you could use disposable.
42:28
Um, pie dishes or if you're gonna gift them, you don't wanna, but the other
42:32
thing that's really handy is a tart pan will come right off from the tart.
42:36
So those make good gifts.
42:38
Um, yeah.
42:39
You always have to try to figure out how to remove the pan from the, from the gift.
42:43
Right.
42:44
Right.
42:44
That way, unless you want, unless you wanna gift somebody, give the tart
42:48
pan as a gift and put a pie in it.
42:49
I think that you, what you're saying too, you don't wanna place the
42:51
burden of returning a dish on the person that's receiving the gift.
42:55
Right.
42:56
Yeah, here's a pie, but by the way, return that pan to me.
42:59
Yeah.
42:59
So yeah, some really nice tips.
43:01
I love the idea of the pie sampler and, uh, pies that cut well, and, uh, if you
43:05
make six different pies and you cut 'em in pieces, then you could conceivably
43:09
and you cut it into eight pieces.
43:11
You could make, um, eight boxes with these six different.
43:15
Types of pie.
43:16
And that makes a really fun and unique gift.
43:18
I think people, yeah, people love that.
43:19
People, you know, that's one of the things about Thanksgiving that people love about
43:23
pie is they just, they like not just one pie, but like multiple, and they wanna
43:27
have a little tiny piece of everything because they just wanna try everything.
43:31
Yeah.
43:31
We would always laugh at one of my, uh, my grandmothers, that was always her answer.
43:35
We would say, what kind of pie do you want?
43:36
And she's, I want a little bit of everything.
43:38
She always wanted to try.
43:41
Try 'em all.
43:41
Yep.
43:42
And, um, cut small slices and everybody gets to enjoy a flavor
43:47
of every pie that's on the table.
43:49
You also have a nice little feature, um.
43:53
About where the, the yield is.
43:56
You have pairings and you have a gluten-free symbol, and of course you have
44:02
the page number and what season it's in.
44:05
Um, I think those kinds of little things make, um, this cookbook very valuable
44:09
'cause people probably do wonder related to gluten and things like that about pies.
44:15
Yeah, when I was designing it, I wanted to have this little, um, uh, it's, it's like
44:20
a little tag on the bottom of each recipe.
44:23
Um, that gives you some references.
44:24
It's, it tells the, the season that you're in and the page number, but, um, the,
44:30
a lot you can mix and match the crusts.
44:33
It's like I'm giving you recommendation on what crust it is, but if
44:36
you wanna take, um, some of the fillings are naturally gluten free.
44:42
So all you'd have to do then is just make one of the gluten-free crust recipes
44:47
to make the pie into a gluten-free pie.
44:50
So those are marked.
44:51
They, they say, um, that it's got a gf, um, little logo on it.
44:56
That means that you can convert this to gluten-free by just changing
45:00
the crust to the gluten-free.
45:02
Um, and then I also came, came up with a little marker for ones
45:05
that are a little bit faster.
45:06
Um.
45:07
So that you like, oh, I don't have a lot of time.
45:10
I wanna make one of the easier ones.
45:11
Yeah.
45:12
Yeah, it's great.
45:13
Very good.
45:13
So it's wonderful to have included those as well.
45:15
Well, it's a beautiful book, the Homemade Pie Cookbook, and if you're
45:19
looking for a gift for this time of year for yourself or someone else, um,
45:24
Laura's gonna tell us here at the end how everybody can, uh, access that.
45:29
But first, before we dive into that, I would love to know,
45:32
um, as we're wrapping up.
45:34
Laura, if you have a favorite cookbook that has influenced your kitchen life?
45:41
Uh, the one that I, I ha I use the most often is the Martha
45:45
Stewart Baking Handbook.
45:47
And that is just because it seems to cover everything.
45:51
If you wanna basis for some, like, here, I wanna make a cake and then I'm gonna,
45:56
you know, I'm gonna make it my own, but.
45:58
I know this cake recipe's gonna work.
46:00
So that, that, that book is, I actually have two of two copies.
46:04
One, 'cause I have two kitchens and I have one in each kitchen.
46:07
Just because I know I'm gonna have the, like, basic recipe, baking
46:12
recipe that's gonna work for what I, what I, I know it's gonna work.
46:15
'cause they, I've tested a lot them, they all work.
46:18
Yeah.
46:18
Um, but I also like the um, big from scratch series.
46:22
If you've ever seen those cookbooks, there's, they're really
46:25
huge and there's a bunch of 'em.
46:26
And then I like that one because it has so many, um, varieties of things in them.
46:32
So it's a series.
46:33
Then they have different types of things, different types of bake goods.
46:36
Yeah.
46:36
I think it's based on a magazine and that's like there's, it has
46:38
an editor rather than one author.
46:41
Yeah.
46:41
And then like, there's just so many recipes in one volume.
46:44
Yeah.
46:45
And then I think there's like up to like eight volumes now, so.
46:47
Wow.
46:47
I, I do collect those as well.
46:49
Those are fun.
46:49
Yeah.
46:49
That's nice.
46:50
That is fun.
46:50
And it's great to hear you're collecting them.
46:52
Those are the kinds of things that people that listen to this show love to hear.
46:55
So that's the Bake from Scratch series.
46:57
Mm-hmm.
46:57
Um.
46:58
Which sounds like something that might be fun to have on the shelf.
47:02
There's photograph from those too, so yeah, I pretty much, if I'm gonna
47:05
love a book, it's gonna have probably a photograph of every recipe as well.
47:08
Yeah.
47:09
You get inspiration also from the art direction of books.
47:12
Oh yeah, sure.
47:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:15
Look at what other people do, how they put books together.
47:18
One thing I've noticed and something that um, but we've seen more recently
47:21
is illustrations also in cookbooks.
47:24
Yep.
47:24
Yep.
47:25
I've been seen that too.
47:26
Yeah, that's something that I would do.
47:28
But, um, but yeah, it's, yeah, it's something.
47:31
I'd won a book recently and they actually, um, had illustrations throughout and
47:36
then they set the photos in a signature in the middle, kind of hearkening
47:39
back to the way books were done.
47:41
They used to do 'em.
47:42
Yeah.
47:42
And because they wanted a photo of every recipe, and I guess it was
47:45
maybe a, a cost saving measure.
47:47
And so, uh, it's beautiful the way they laid the photos out and the
47:50
way they group things together for the signature of photos and, um.
47:56
It really was, uh, like a throwback to the way some cookbooks used to be done.
48:01
So it's kind of neat to see that twist, um, in 2025.
48:07
Well, illustration is a big thing in fiction right now too.
48:11
It's just kind of coming back with a vengeance.
48:13
It used to be used to, there was a time when we didn't put illustrations
48:17
on covers at all, and now it's like, um, half of 'em, I'd say.
48:20
Yeah.
48:20
Yeah.
48:21
So what's on the horizon for, um, art direction for cookbooks?
48:24
You're seeing anything?
48:25
Um.
48:26
Coming down the pike that you think's been interesting?
48:30
I have a, um, a book I'm gonna be working on.
48:32
I don't think it's announced yet, but I have a contract for, to do the
48:35
photography for that I'm excited about.
48:37
Um, and then I have a concept from, you know, a couple of books
48:40
that I'd like to write if, if, um, if I find publishers for them.
48:45
Yeah.
48:46
Yeah, I think that's great.
48:47
And I think once you learn how to write a proposal and you can conceive of an idea,
48:50
it is kind of fun to, uh, pitch it and see if somebody will take you up on it.
48:54
And, um.
48:56
Dive in again to all the development testing and Yeah, it's a photography.
49:01
It's, yeah.
49:02
Yeah.
49:02
It's a fun job, but it's a job.
49:03
Yeah.
49:04
Yeah.
49:04
So if anyone's interested in connecting with you online or, uh, buying a copy
49:08
of your book, how can they do that?
49:10
Uh, uh, the, my publisher also is a bookseller, so we have a,
49:15
a bite bigger book, house.com.
49:17
You can purchase it there.
49:18
It's on, it's always on sale, or I think it's, you always on sale there.
49:22
Um, we also, I also can be connect, you connect with me on Instagram at, um, spice
49:27
and Sugar table and also that's, um, uh.
49:32
Instagram account that I do with a friend who I also wrote a book
49:36
with called Gather and Grace.
49:38
Um, but then I also have a personal one that has a lot of pie stuff on it too.
49:42
And that's just Laura Klein, um, Instagram.
49:46
Great.
49:47
Very good.
49:48
Well, I'll link to those in the show notes.
49:51
So I wanna thank you so much for coming on the show today, telling us
49:54
all about your beautiful book, the Homemade Pie Cookbook, and I wish you a
49:59
terrific holiday season and um, have fun promoting and talking about your book.
50:05
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me.
50:06
Yeah, thank you.
50:08
Thank you so much for joining us today for this episode of the Cookbook Love Podcast.
50:12
Again, all the links can be found in the show notes@www.cookbooklove.co.
50:18
And if you are interested in writing a cookbook of your own, please check out the
50:23
free cookbook writing masterclass called How to Get Paid to Write a Cookbook.
50:28
It is designed specifically for food or nutrition experts,
50:32
and you can check that out at www.cookbookwritersacademy.com/free.
50:40
So that's it for today's episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
50:43
This is your host, Maggie Green, and until next time, have a great day.
50:47
And keep loving your cookbooks.
50:53
Thanks for listening to the Cookbook Love podcast.
50:56
You can find out more information@www.cookbooklove.co.