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Oscar Nominee José Rivera Explores AI and Aging through Theater · Jersey Arts Podcast

• 0:02
  Maddie Orton: I'm Maddie Orton and you're listening to the Jersey Arts Podcast.
• 0:05
  Maddie Orton: Award-winning playwright Jose Rivera brings both his writing and directing talents to New Jersey Repertory Company's production Your Name Means Dream.
• 0:14
  Maddie Orton: Rivera's play explores the imagined highs and lows of artificial intelligence through the lens of healthcare, telling the story of Aislin, an aging woman who is being taken care of by Stacy an AI entity.
• 0:26
  Maddie Orton: Rivera may be most widely known for his work in film.
• 0:30
  Maddie Orton: He earned an Oscar nomination for his screenplay of 2004's the Motorcycle Diaries and was recently tapped to write the upcoming remake of the 1987 film La Bamba.
• 0:40
  Maddie Orton: Rivera sat down with the Jersey Arts Podcast to discuss his play writing for stage and screen and the roller coaster that is show business.
• 0:49
  Maddie Orton: Take a listen.
• 0:54
  Maddie Orton: Jose Rivera, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 0:56
  Maddie Orton: I really appreciate it.
• 0:58
  Jose Rivera: Thank you, it's nice to be here.
• 1:00
  Maddie Orton: So you are both the playwright and director of the upcoming production of Your Name Means Dream at New Jersey Repertory Company.
• 1:06
  Maddie Orton: Can you tell us just a little bit about the show?
• 1:09
  Jose Rivera: Yes, it's a two character play, full length play about an older woman who lives alone and has medical problems and a son who doesn't really want to take care of her, and a son who doesn't really want to take care of her, but he's rich and hires an AI robot to take care of his mom, and the play is the two of them.
• 1:32
  Jose Rivera: It's their relationship and how it changes over time and what they learn about each other and that kind of thing.
• 1:40
  Maddie Orton: So where did the idea of exploring AI through the lens of aging come for you?
• 1:46
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, I mean it's probably about five years ago I was thinking about.
• 1:50
  Jose Rivera: I mean, I'm in my 60s, so I'm always thinking about age and you know, and AI was becoming five years ago a really hot topic and it was still fresh and not well understood and I thought this is really interesting.
• 2:08
  Jose Rivera: I think this is the next big thing to sort of hit the culture, and I did think as I grow older, what I wouldn't want is to be at the mercy of machinery and not have a human being take care of me and you know I have two grown kids and not have a human being take care of me.
• 2:23
  Jose Rivera: And you know I have two grown kids and they have their own, you know, lives and stuff and siblings that live far away, and I thought, hmm, what, what, what would happen to me if I had no one but a machine to take care of me?
• 2:36
  Jose Rivera: And so you know, a lot of writers sort of write about what they fear the most.
• 2:42
  Jose Rivera: So that was what I was hearing the most and the play was really a way to explore that.
• 2:53
  Jose Rivera: How could that feel?
• 2:53
  Maddie Orton: like, and what would that be like?
• 2:54
  Maddie Orton: How?
• 2:55
  Jose Rivera: did you research for the piece?
• 2:56
  Jose Rivera: It's funny, I research.
• 2:57
  Jose Rivera: When I work in film, I tend to work in subjects that I know nothing about, so I have to do a lot of research subjects that I know nothing about, so I have to do a lot of research.
• 3:06
  Jose Rivera: For this I did very little research.
• 3:11
  Jose Rivera: I sort of went with my gut instincts on what AI would feel like and be like, you know, once it gets incredibly advanced.
• 3:14
  Jose Rivera: So actually I mean I'd read some articles but I kind of relied on a lifetime of watching science fiction movies, kind of relied on a lifetime of watching science fiction movies.
• 3:25
  Jose Rivera: You know, and robots have been in film since, you know, really the early 1900s, and so there was a lot to sort of draw on in terms of like the common mythology of what we imagine robots will be like.
• 3:41
  Jose Rivera: And you know, I wrote the play for two dear friends, so I crafted the characters kind of to reflect their personalities, and that was really the extent of my so-called research.
• 3:58
  Maddie Orton: That's so interesting.
• 3:59
  Maddie Orton: I mean, I've seen that in the past.
• 4:01
  Maddie Orton: You've mentioned that science fiction has played a big role in your development, I assume as a writer, but also as a person.
• 4:08
  Maddie Orton: You watched Twilight Zone, I think I read.
• 4:11
  Jose Rivera: Oh yeah, and that was my favorite TV show, yeah.
• 4:14
  Maddie Orton: So I imagine that this is sort of, in a way, well-trod territory for you, but also just the way that it's developed so rapidly.
• 4:21
  Maddie Orton: I think the specifics of what AI could entail are kind of new and for me, like I'm also very scared of this for better or worse.
• 4:31
  Maddie Orton: How did you sort of drill down on what aspects of AI felt the most pressing to you, and especially, I guess, within the narrative of healthcare and especially, I guess, within the narrative of health care.
• 4:47
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, I mean, my assumption was that this AI would always and only tell the truth, so she wouldn't have conspiracy theories or bad information, like you know, she wouldn't tell.
• 5:06
  Jose Rivera: You know the older woman to like drink Clorox bleach to take care of her viruses, you know, and that her, but she does approach medicine through a more holistic lens.
• 5:14
  Jose Rivera: You know she's really about, like Aileen the older woman, getting rid of her pills and doing yoga and nutrition and exercise in order to take care of her basic medical issues.
• 5:29
  Jose Rivera: But you know, I did stay away from anything that felt like really trendy medicine or trendy bad medicine.
• 5:42
  Jose Rivera: You know that we hear about all the time.
• 5:45
  Jose Rivera: I really wanted like to create a character the AI to be like an incredibly good friend who is compassionate and honest and not judgmental and really has her clients' best interests.
• 6:02
  Maddie Orton: In creating this?
• 6:02
  Maddie Orton: Did you come to any sort of peace with the idea of AI?
• 6:13
  Jose Rivera: or are you still as anxious as I am?
• 6:14
  Jose Rivera: Well, you know it's funny.
• 6:15
  Jose Rivera: I kind of like played both sides.
• 6:16
  Jose Rivera: For instance, the relationship with Aileen and Stacey.
• 6:19
  Jose Rivera: The AI is, in the final analysis is, in the final analysis, amazingly beneficial to both of them.
• 6:27
  Jose Rivera: There's a good symbiotic relationship between the two.
• 6:30
  Jose Rivera: So there's that story.
• 6:31
  Jose Rivera: Yet we hear occasional newscasts of the AI in the larger world.
• 6:39
  Jose Rivera: You know some AI smothering a man in his sleep.
• 6:44
  Jose Rivera: We hear about, you know, american ballet theater hiring an AI ballerina.
• 6:49
  Jose Rivera: That's interesting First time.
• 6:51
  Jose Rivera: There's a group called Skin Jobs that are convinced that, you know, ai are going to be our masters.
• 6:59
  Jose Rivera: So the play makes those points as well as the kind of like kind of loving, compassionate relationship that the AI has as a way to really show the complexity of this thing, that it's not evil or good, and there are cases in the play of real evil.
• 7:25
  Jose Rivera: And then the play demonstrates a kind of benign aspect.
• 7:31
  Jose Rivera: It's all speculative, like all good science fiction.
• 7:35
  Jose Rivera: It's all like, yeah, maybe.
• 7:39
  Jose Rivera: You know it could be, we don't know, and it's just sort of like.
• 7:43
  Jose Rivera: My feeling is like as a theater artist, you know my job is to present something that will excite conversations.
• 7:51
  Jose Rivera: You know, somebody once told me a long time ago that modern art is not about answering questions, but asking the right questions.
• 8:00
  Jose Rivera: So that's what I want the play to do is excite the right questions.
• 8:10
  Maddie Orton: So, as we discussed, you're both the playwright and the director of this piece.
• 8:13
  Maddie Orton: Do you find that those experiences work similar parts of your brain, for lack of a better description or is directing just such a completely different way of interacting with the play?
• 8:25
  Jose Rivera: I would say the goals are the same, which are to tell the story, same which are to tell the story.
• 8:33
  Jose Rivera: The play tells the story and then, as a director, I try to get the actors to tell the story.
• 8:43
  Jose Rivera: Now, that said, it is a very different use of creative muscle to direct actors and designers and to, like, make this thing.
• 8:55
  Jose Rivera: We're making this thing in three dimensions, you know, and it takes a lot of people and it takes a lot of, you know, coordination and communication on my part to make sure that my vision is understood and can be executed.
• 9:10
  Jose Rivera: So that is a very different set of skills as opposed to the very solitary and inward-looking activity of writing a play.
• 9:22
  Maddie Orton: Because this is one of your newer plays.
• 9:23
  Maddie Orton: There's only been one other production of this.
• 9:26
  Maddie Orton: Are you finding more elements in the material?
• 9:30
  Maddie Orton: As you direct it and see it up on its feet a second time.
• 9:34
  Jose Rivera: Yes, I am.
• 9:35
  Jose Rivera: Actually we did it before with the same actors in West Virginia, and so the team has now moved on to New Jersey.
• 9:46
  Jose Rivera: I am finding that I'm learning new things and hearing new things, and it's been more than a year since the actors have performed in the play, so in that year, you know, they have grown and their approach to the work is deeper and I hear things, you know I think their work is deeper than it was in West Virginia and so, yeah, I think we are experiencing the play in a very different way and and it's great because you know we we come with already a huge like fountain of knowledge and now we can be, we can fine tune, you know what we're discovering and make it even stronger and clearer and funnier and spots and that kind of thing.
• 10:36
  Maddie Orton: As the playwright, are there moments where you think to yourself like this is not what I put in the text, but I'm seeing it in a different way, on its feet and it's sort of like I assume the actors breathe a different life into it.
• 10:47
  Maddie Orton: Or you're able to pull moments out as the director that are not specifically there but are maybe sort of an overtone for lack of a better word that sort of developed.
• 10:56
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's.
• 10:57
  Jose Rivera: You know, actors will always surprise you.
• 11:00
  Jose Rivera: Actors will always bring an energy or a rhythm to something you've never expected, and there can be so many discoveries in that, you know, in both subtle and in very overt ways.
• 11:12
  Jose Rivera: Like, the most overt way in this production is there's a scene.
• 11:17
  Jose Rivera: there can be so many discoveries in that, you know, and both subtle and in very overt ways, like the most overt way in this production is there's a scene where Stacy the AI is hacked and has a mental breakdown, and the way it's scripted is that she just has this like stream of consciousness, rambling word vomit of quotes from the Bible, from Shakespeare, from old movies, from rap songs, where she just spews them out in stream of consciousness form.
• 11:46
  Jose Rivera: And that's what I wrote.
• 11:49
  Jose Rivera: That's the text.
• 11:49
  Jose Rivera: But Sarah, the actress who plays the AI, took that and turned it into a dance.
• 11:56
  Maddie Orton: Oh, wow.
• 11:57
  Jose Rivera: Not only is she speaking you know the Koran and you know lines from Toni Morrison or whatever but she's also dancing, wow, and she's also, like the character we established earlier, sort of an encyclopedia of dance styles.
• 12:14
  Jose Rivera: So during her hacking she does like Bob Fosse, she does the taps, she does hip hop, she does the Charleston, she does ballet, she does some gymnastics and you know, it's all part of like the hacking moment and it's quite spectacular, I think.
• 12:35
  Jose Rivera: But that's a great example of like something that an actor just brought to the play that I did not invent, I just invented the words and she created this like choreographed nervous breakdown.
• 12:52
  Maddie Orton: Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
• 12:54
  Maddie Orton: You are perhaps most widely known as the Oscar nominated screenwriter of the Motorcycle Diaries, and it was recently announced that you're attached to a new project as the screenwriter of the upcoming remake of the 1987 film, la Bamba.
• 13:14
  Maddie Orton: So how does writing for screen feel for you versus writing for stage?
• 13:18
  Maddie Orton: How did you get into screenwriting?
• 13:22
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, it's funny, I didn't really start screenplays until after I was 40.
• 13:26
  Jose Rivera: Okay, and I had been writing plays and doing television until then.
• 13:31
  Jose Rivera: And then I had, you know, I had created a TV series was on ABC.
• 13:36
  Jose Rivera: It was canceled after one season and I was so bitter about the cancellation I said I'm never doing TV again and I'm only going to write movies.
• 13:46
  Jose Rivera: And so I started my movie career then and you know I've been lucky.
• 13:52
  Jose Rivera: I've had a lot of.
• 13:53
  Jose Rivera: You know I've been lucky.
• 13:53
  Jose Rivera: I've had a lot of.
• 13:54
  Jose Rivera: You know I've worked with some really interesting people.
• 13:57
  Jose Rivera: I mean, generally, 90 of films that are written never get made oh my gosh, if you look at my career, it's exactly 90.
• 14:08
  Jose Rivera: So you know, I've I had, you know, three or four films made and I've written many, many more.
• 14:14
  Jose Rivera: And so, you know, I tell myself every time I start a new film project and I'm like, okay, you're a professional, you can do this, you're going to do a great job, Don't fall in love, because it's going to break your heart later.
• 14:29
  Jose Rivera: And then every time I do, every time I fall in love, every time I get to the point where it's God, I love these characters and I love this story and I love this movie.
• 14:40
  Jose Rivera: And then you get your heart broken.
• 14:42
  Jose Rivera: So I'm hoping La Bamba does not fall into that category.
• 14:48
  Jose Rivera: You know who knows, I mean I'm working with, you know the Richie Valens story so fascinating, sure, and you know, luis Valdez's movie is beautiful and he doesn't know why we're doing a remake of it.
• 15:02
  Jose Rivera: You know, if I were him, I'd wonder the same thing, because he had created a perfect film.
• 15:05
  Jose Rivera: I mean beautiful, remake of it.
• 15:05
  Jose Rivera: If I were him, I'd wonder the same thing, because he had created a perfect film.
• 15:09
  Jose Rivera: I mean beautiful.
• 15:10
  Jose Rivera: However, the more research I did into the life of Ritchie Valens, the more I realized that the movie really missed a lot of interesting things and that the reality was actually really fascinating.
• 15:24
  Jose Rivera: For instance, in the original movie, if you remember, richie falls in love with Donna right Like love at first sight, and they meet in high school and, like you know, she's this cute, giggly girl.
• 15:34
  Jose Rivera: Well, in real life she was a troublemaker who was always in detention, she was always smoking in the girls' room and she was a bit of a rebel.
• 15:43
  Jose Rivera: That's great.
• 15:44
  Jose Rivera: And the first time they met she was with her boyfriend oh my gosh, you know.
• 15:50
  Jose Rivera: And Richie still liked and started.
• 15:52
  Jose Rivera: Richie cornered her at the party and started serenading her, singing a song just for her, and it just.
• 15:59
  Jose Rivera: That was it for the old boyfriend.
• 16:01
  Jose Rivera: He you know, those things, those details, made me fall in love with this story.
• 16:07
  Maddie Orton: And then Motorcycle Diaries.
• 16:08
  Maddie Orton: How did that come about?
• 16:10
  Jose Rivera: Yeah.
• 16:11
  Jose Rivera: So I was sitting at home minding my own business, my phone running, and it was my manager, rick, who's been my manager for like 35 years, and he said hey, they're looking for a writer to write the Motorcycle Diaries.
• 16:23
  Jose Rivera: Are you interested?
• 16:24
  Jose Rivera: Should I?
• 16:25
  Jose Rivera: Should I send you up for this?
• 16:26
  Jose Rivera: And I hadn't read the motorcycle diaries, either in Spanish or English, and I didn't know much about it.
• 16:31
  Jose Rivera: I knew something about Che Gulotta and Rick said and this Brazilian director, walter Salas, is attached, and that's what piqued my interest, because Walter's Film, central film central station is was nominated for an Academy award and it's one of the most beautiful films you'll ever see.
• 16:51
  Jose Rivera: It's just, you know, like amazing.
• 16:54
  Jose Rivera: So I said, yes, yes, send me up for this.
• 16:56
  Jose Rivera: And so I ended up meeting Walter for lunch in Beverly Hills.
• 17:03
  Maddie Orton: That sounds so cool.
• 17:04
  Maddie Orton: I love that yeah.
• 17:06
  Jose Rivera: It's so cliche oh it's wonderful, though.
• 17:09
  Maddie Orton: That sounds so cool.
• 17:10
  Maddie Orton: I love that.
• 17:10
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, it's so cliche, oh, it's wonderful, though it's so cool.
• 17:16
  Jose Rivera: And I kept thinking to myself if he is not like the film, the film is like beautiful and generous and smart and poetic.
• 17:19
  Jose Rivera: If he's none of those things, I'm going to hate this guy.
• 17:21
  Jose Rivera: And then he's everything in that film oh, that's wonderful.
• 17:26
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, just the most cultured, brilliant man and very sensitive, but you know like, and a real lover of cinema, one of the few people who can quote.
• 17:38
  Jose Rivera: You know, godard, and it's not ironic that's's amazing, yeah.
• 17:44
  Jose Rivera: Yeah and anyway.
• 17:46
  Jose Rivera: So Walter and I hit it off perfectly, and part of it was that our backgrounds are so different.
• 17:52
  Jose Rivera: Like his father was an ambassador oh wow, he was the Brazilian ambassador to France and to the United States.
• 17:59
  Jose Rivera: So Walter lived in the States and in France and Brazil.
• 18:02
  Jose Rivera: My father was a janitor, you know, my father scrubbed floors, you know.
• 18:08
  Jose Rivera: So we came from like completely different backgrounds and I think he found my background kind of charming, I found his background kind of charming, and so we kind of met in the middle and, yeah, by the end, by the end of lunch, he had hired me.
• 18:21
  Jose Rivera: He had said you want to do this?
• 18:23
  Jose Rivera: And I said, yes, I want to do it.
• 18:24
  Jose Rivera: And so that's how it started.
• 18:27
  Maddie Orton: It must be so surreal to know that 90% of the screenplays you make will not get made.
• 18:33
  Maddie Orton: But you've also been nominated for an Oscar.
• 18:37
  Maddie Orton: I mean that just feels like such tremendous gambling, such a good return on investment, but tremendous emotional gamble turn on investment, but it's a tremendous like emotional gamble.
• 18:50
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, I think.
• 18:51
  Jose Rivera: Um.
• 18:51
  Jose Rivera: Well, I mean, you know, after the nomination, that's when most of my work came.
• 18:53
  Jose Rivera: It's hard to manage like every.
• 18:54
  Jose Rivera: Suddenly you know dreamworks that wanted nothing to do with me.
• 18:58
  Jose Rivera: Suddenly you know they're on the phone you know, we've got a project for you.
• 19:02
  Jose Rivera: you're the the perfect writer for this.
• 19:03
  Jose Rivera: I'm like, yes, I'm the same writer I was six months ago.
• 19:06
  Jose Rivera: You didn't care, and so, yeah, I had a lot of offers and a lot of things.
• 19:12
  Jose Rivera: But you know, and people like me are hired because we come with an award or something and it takes the risk out of it.
• 19:22
  Jose Rivera: That's the only reason.
• 19:25
  Jose Rivera: It's not because I was a better writer after the motorcycle virus, it's that I was less of a risk to the business.
• 19:31
  Jose Rivera: Yet that didn't prevent these particular studios in not making these films that I wrote.
• 19:39
  Jose Rivera: You know, the thing I wrote for DreamWorks never got made.
• 19:43
  Jose Rivera: You know I wrote a film for Sony for Halle Berry that never got made.
• 19:48
  Jose Rivera: You know many, many films.
• 19:50
  Jose Rivera: I worked for a British company called Velvet Octopus for a film about Greenpeace.
• 19:56
  Jose Rivera: That never got made.
• 19:57
  Jose Rivera: So, yeah, I wrote a film for Disney about wolves.
• 20:01
  Jose Rivera: You know that never got made.
• 20:03
  Jose Rivera: So you just never know.
• 20:04
  Maddie Orton: It seems like you have a very like, well adjusted, healthy attitude about this, though, because I I could see just like staying up at night ruminating, but it also seems like you've come to some sort of I don't know what relationship with the industry and and also balancing the theater, which was your original love with film.
• 20:22
  Jose Rivera: This actually sounds really great yeah, I credit fatherhood for that.
• 20:27
  Jose Rivera: I think my kids and you know this, you know, as your child gets older, you know they ground you and it's hard to take shit seriously when you have kids Like you take them seriously, you take their world seriously, like so seriously, you know, and this other stuff seems like.
• 20:47
  Jose Rivera: You know you can have a tantrum, mr Producer, but you know I deal with my children and they get my attention.
• 20:54
  Jose Rivera: You don't, you know.
• 20:56
  Maddie Orton: Right.
• 20:57
  Jose Rivera: But you know I listen.
• 20:58
  Jose Rivera: I've had, I've been fired from seven movies.
• 21:01
  Jose Rivera: I've had terrible reviews.
• 21:04
  Jose Rivera: I've been replaced by actors.
• 21:06
  Jose Rivera: They can't hurt me.
• 21:07
  Jose Rivera: You know what I'm saying You've done it all, I can't, you can't hurt me anymore.
• 21:12
  Jose Rivera: I think what keeps me going is that I do love writing.
• 21:16
  Maddie Orton: Yeah, clearly that's great.
• 21:18
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, when it's just me and the writing, I feel fine.
• 21:21
  Jose Rivera: It's just when it starts getting into the land of executives and you know, then it becomes complicated.
• 21:29
  Maddie Orton: So would you have any advice for early career playwrights, screenwriters?
• 21:35
  Jose Rivera: Yeah, don't do it.
• 21:37
  Jose Rivera: No, Well, listen, if you can be persuaded by someone telling you not to do it, then you shouldn't do it.
• 21:42
  Jose Rivera: You're going to do it.
• 21:42
  Jose Rivera: You're going to do it.
• 21:43
  Jose Rivera: If you want to do it, telling you not to do it, then you shouldn't do it.
• 21:45
  Jose Rivera: You're gonna do it.
• 21:46
  Jose Rivera: You're gonna do it.
• 21:47
  Jose Rivera: If you want to do it, you're gonna do it, no matter what I say, what anyone says, if you're in love with it, you have the passion and the skill, then you're gonna do it.
• 21:56
  Jose Rivera: And so my advice is like to just think in the long term, like if you're 25 and you're just starting out and you know, just remember that you're in an apprenticeship that's going to last your entire life long, that you're always going to learn You're never going to know it all and that pace yourself and remember it's.
• 22:19
  Jose Rivera: You know, when the setbacks are not the end of the world, that there's always.
• 22:25
  Jose Rivera: You know, like someone once said, you know movies are like trains If you miss one, there's always another one coming.
• 22:32
  Jose Rivera: That's great, and it's sort of like that Like all right, you get fired, Hopefully knock on wood, there's another one coming, you know, Jump on that one.
• 22:43
  Jose Rivera: And then, you know, get fired again.
• 22:45
  Maddie Orton: I love that.
• 22:46
  Maddie Orton: Well, Jose Rivera, thank you so much for your time today.
• 22:49
  Maddie Orton: I really appreciate it.
• 22:50
  Maddie Orton: I hope everybody has a great experience with your Name.
• 22:54
  Maddie Orton: Means Dream and best of luck with everything.
• 22:57
  Jose Rivera: Thank you so much.
• 22:58
  Jose Rivera: It's really great to talk to you.
• 23:02
  Maddie Orton: Your Name Means Dream runs from October 31st through November 24th at New Jersey Repertory Company.
• 23:08
  Maddie Orton: For more information, visit NJRep.
• 23:10
  Maddie Orton: org.
• 23:11
  Maddie Orton: If you liked this episode, be sure to give us a review, subscribe and tell your friends.
• 23:15
  Maddie Orton: A transcript of this podcast, as well as related content and more about the arts in New Jersey, can be found on JerseyArts.
• 23:21
  Maddie Orton: com.
• 23:22
  Maddie Orton: The Jersey Arts Podcast is presented by Art Pride New Jersey, advancing a state of creativity since 1986.
• 23:29
  Maddie Orton: The show is co-founded by and currently supported by funds from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts, with additional support from the National Endowment for the Arts.
• 23:38
  Maddie Orton: This episode was hosted, produced and edited by yours truly, Maddie Orton.
• 23:42
  Maddie Orton: Executive producers are Jim Atkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez.
• 23:44
  Maddie Orton: Special thanks to Jose Rivera.
• 23:48
  Maddie Orton: I'm Maddie Orton for the Jersey Arts Podcast.
• 23:50
  Maddie Orton: Thanks for listening.