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Murder In Moscow: Transcripts From The Closed IGG Hearing (Part 12) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're getting right back to that IgG transcript
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: information and we have mister Hellwig now being questioned on
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the readdirect by Miss Taylor. Question, full genome sequencing is
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the whole genome everything? Is that? What that means? Answer? Yes,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the whole genome sequence is the attempt to sequence the
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  Speaker 1: entire genome if possible. Question Now, I heard you talking
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: about the prosecutor about what you didn't look at with
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  Speaker 1: medical information. But I thought I heard you talk about
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  Speaker 1: when you got down to the SNP those SNPs weren't
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  Speaker 1: called from the whole genome? Did I hear that right? Answer?
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  Speaker 1: I would have to rephrase that a little bit. Question,
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  Speaker 1: Please do answer. When we're dealing with whole genome sequencing,
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  Speaker 1: we're attempting to sequence the entire genome and it turns
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  Speaker 1: into the raw file, that FASTQ file that I mentioned before. Now,
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  Speaker 1: the next step is to bioinformatic pathways. The bioinformation pathway
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  Speaker 1: is going to be targeting specific SNPs in question that
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  Speaker 1: we want to solve the question for. We want to
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  Speaker 1: answer the question for. In our case, these are genetic
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  Speaker 1: genealogy or ancestry informative markers, those SNPs that provide information
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  Speaker 1: for genealogy and ancestry. The bioinformatics that we would use
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  Speaker 1: at IMF would be specifically targeting those particular SNPs, but
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  Speaker 1: the raw data, the sequence data, still has the entire
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  Speaker 1: list of SNPs. We just aren't pulling that piece of
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  Speaker 1: information out. Question. So if you handed me a case
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  Speaker 1: with your notes, protocols, and procedures, I could look at
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  Speaker 1: what you did at whole Genome Sequencing and know you
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  Speaker 1: were targeting only genealogy SNPs. Would that be fair to say? Answer?
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  Speaker 1: With the right knowledge base, Yes, the list of snips
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  Speaker 1: are included where they are and the name on the
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  Speaker 1: upload file are all there. You can do the research
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  Speaker 1: to look at that and say, okay, these are genealogy
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  Speaker 1: or ancestry informative markers. Question. If I had a file
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  Speaker 1: with notes that talked about how bioinformatics were used, what
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  Speaker 1: to produce, what kind of SNPs to produce, and handle
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  Speaker 1: it to somebody like you, would you tell me these
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  Speaker 1: are the ones that go to ancestry issues, that go
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  Speaker 1: to genealogy issues. If I had the notes from somebody else, answer,
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  Speaker 1: I would have to do some research to be honest
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  Speaker 1: with you, The SNPs in question that are that we're
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  Speaker 1: using or all derived from these genealogy databases. So it's
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  Speaker 1: the ged match pro, family Tree, DNA, ancestry dot Com.
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  Speaker 1: Those are the ones who have decided which SNPs to use,
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  Speaker 1: and we just use them as a tool. So what
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  Speaker 1: is the SNPs that best upload into the family Tree,
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  Speaker 1: DNA law Enforcement database or ged match pro. And so
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  Speaker 1: when we are bioinformatically pulling out the SNPs, we're doing
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  Speaker 1: so under the direction of what they want from us.
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  Speaker 1: Could I determine if there's a medical information within those
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  Speaker 1: SNPs or SNP's with medical information, Yes, but it would
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  Speaker 1: take a lot of research. Question. I just have a
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  Speaker 1: couple of questions for you about what the prosecutor talked about.
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  Speaker 1: Besides that, he asked about the chicken and egg problem
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  Speaker 1: and different cases you've done and the hundreds of cases
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  Speaker 1: that you've done before. You told us that it's important
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  Speaker 1: to have protocols and procedures and keep your information, keep
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  Speaker 1: your notes. Did you do that in those cases? Answer? Oh, yes, yes,
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  Speaker 1: within the quality management system as a whole and adhering
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  Speaker 1: to our procedures and protocols and the accreditation standard that
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  Speaker 1: we derive to. It's all that. It's case documentation, laboratory report,
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  Speaker 1: and then the foundation behind it, validation, summaries, competency testing
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  Speaker 1: for personnel, their educational requirements. All of that has been
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  Speaker 1: done in those cases and adhere to in our own
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  Speaker 1: internal policies. Question. Thank you, that's it for me, the court,
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. You can step down. Does defense have other
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  Speaker 1: Witnessess Taylor, your honor for the IgG. I have one
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  Speaker 1: other witness this morning, the court. How long is that one,
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  Speaker 1: Miss Taylor? I think she's a little bit longer the court.
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  Speaker 1: Let's take thirty minutes for lunch. So they come back
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  Speaker 1: from all of that, and now Leia Larkin is on
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  Speaker 1: the stand, Miss Taylor. Good afternoon. Answer, good afternoon. Question
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  Speaker 1: will you say your whole name? Answer? My name is
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  Speaker 1: Lea Larkin. Question what do you do for work? Answer?
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  Speaker 1: I'm a genetic genealogist. Question what kind of background in
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  Speaker 1: training do you have? Answer? I have an undergraduate degree
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  Speaker 1: in biology from Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania, and I have
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  Speaker 1: a PhD in biology, specifically in the field of botany
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  Speaker 1: from the University of Texas aut Austin. Question how long
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  Speaker 1: have you worked in genetic genealogy? Answer? I started doing
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  Speaker 1: it as an amateur in I believe twenty thirteen, and
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  Speaker 1: I started taking professional clients in twenty sixteen. Question what
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  Speaker 1: does that mean you take professional clients? Answer? Most of
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  Speaker 1: my clients are people like an adoptee or someone with
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  Speaker 1: an unknown father who is trying to identify that particular relative,
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  Speaker 1: so I can use their direct to consumer genealogy DNA test,
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  Speaker 1: build family trees, and work to identify their biological family.
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  Speaker 1: Question so your work happens after the SNP is produced? Answer? Yes,
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  Speaker 1: question do I understand that? Right? Answer yes? Question do
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  Speaker 1: you know what whole genome sequencing is? Answer? I do.
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  Speaker 1: I have not done it myself, but my training in biology,
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  Speaker 1: I understand what it is. Question based on your work
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  Speaker 1: in genealogy, are you aware of what kinds of things
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  Speaker 1: are contained in the whole genome sequencing file? Answer right.
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  Speaker 1: A few of the earlier witnesses have said the genome
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  Speaker 1: is basically the blueprint. It's the instruction manual for your body.
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  Speaker 1: So it first of all, it makes you human, but
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  Speaker 1: it also can determine your hair color, your physical traits,
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  Speaker 1: your eye color, and there are a lot of genes
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  Speaker 1: that are going to be associated with other things like
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  Speaker 1: whether you have a propensity for Alzheimer's or your height,
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  Speaker 1: your weight. Basically, all of these traits make us unique
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  Speaker 1: for the most part, are coded in our genes, our
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  Speaker 1: DNA in one or more of our genes. Question is
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  Speaker 1: there any aspect in your field where medical information can
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  Speaker 1: be known? Answer? Yes, So the DNA tests that are
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  Speaker 1: used for genetic genealogy are called microarrays. So when you
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  Speaker 1: spit in a tube and send it off to one
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  Speaker 1: of these companies, they're going to do what's called a
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  Speaker 1: micro array. A micro array test was designed for biomedical research,
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  Speaker 1: they weren't designed for genealogy. Genealogy was like an afterthought.
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  Speaker 1: These are tests that were created specifically to target physical
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  Speaker 1: traits health traits, and it just happens to be useful
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  Speaker 1: for genealogy as well. So even if I do a
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  Speaker 1: test and I don't look at those traits, they're still
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  Speaker 1: in that data file. Question when you get the work,
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  Speaker 1: do you have to make a choice as to what
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  Speaker 1: kind of database you're going to do your research? In? Answer? Yes,
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  Speaker 1: So if I'm taking a client who, for example, is
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  Speaker 1: an adoptee, I will have them test at Ancestry in
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  Speaker 1: twenty three in meter dot com. So those are two
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  Speaker 1: companies where you actually have to send in spit sample
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  Speaker 1: to get into their databases. They don't take data files
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  Speaker 1: from other sources. The most cost effective way to do
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  Speaker 1: this for an adoptee is to test at those two
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  Speaker 1: companies and then take one of the data files you
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  Speaker 1: get from say Ancestry, and upload it into the smaller databases.
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  Speaker 1: That way, you don't have to pay for the whole
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  Speaker 1: new test. You don't have to wait to mail it
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  Speaker 1: off and have the lab run it and get the
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  Speaker 1: results back. You can normally get your results in a
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: day or two after you do the upload. As for
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: an adoptee, there aren't really restrictions on which databases you
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  Speaker 1: can use because they were all generally created for amateur genealogists. Question.
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  Speaker 1: We've talked a little bit today about databases that have
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  Speaker 1: restricted use. Answer yes, question what does that mean? Answer
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  Speaker 1: so forensic genetic genie, which is also sometimes called investigative
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  Speaker 1: genetic genealogy. And then there's the combination fig just because
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  Speaker 1: we can't decide that is restricted to two main databases
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  Speaker 1: there's Family Tree DNA, which we call ft DNA for short,
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  Speaker 1: and then there's ged match, and those are the only
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  Speaker 1: two databases of any significant size that allow fig searching
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  Speaker 1: Ancestry forbids IT twenty three and meter forbids it my
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  Speaker 1: Heritage forbids IT question, does ged match have two sides
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  Speaker 1: to it? Answer? Yeah, Actually both ged match and Family
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  Speaker 1: Tree DNA have specific upload process for forensic kits. We
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  Speaker 1: call these test kits. So if you're normal, regular adoptee,
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  Speaker 1: you can upload through the main layperson portal, but if
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  Speaker 1: it's a forensic kit, it's supposed to go through a
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  Speaker 1: special upload process at ged match. They call that ged
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  Speaker 1: match Pro. Family Tree DNA does not have a special
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  Speaker 1: name for it to my knowledge, but there's a special
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  Speaker 1: process you're supposed to go through, and those kits that
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  Speaker 1: are uploaded through the forensic portal are restricted in which
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  Speaker 1: other kits they can use. The idea is that if
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  Speaker 1: you don't want to participate in a forensic search, if
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  Speaker 1: you're a lay person and you don't want to participate,
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  Speaker 1: you can opt out. And so a kit that is
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  Speaker 1: uploaded through the forensic portal should not be able to
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  Speaker 1: see a lay person kit that is opted out. Question
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  Speaker 1: do you know why these databases have these different I
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  Speaker 1: guess abilities or rules? Answer? Yeah, so, I'm sure we're
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: all familiar with the Golden State killer case, at least
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  Speaker 1: we've heard about it. That was the first big criminal
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  Speaker 1: case that was solved using this type of genetic genealogy.
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  Speaker 1: There had previously been one though unknown remains that had
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  Speaker 1: been identified a few weeks earlier, but the Golden State
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  Speaker 1: killer case is the one that got all the media attention.
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  Speaker 1: On the one hand, there were people who were really
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  Speaker 1: excited about the prospect of capturing violent criminals using this method.
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  Speaker 1: At the flip side, there were a lot of genealogists
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  Speaker 1: who were really concerned that there might be drawn into
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  Speaker 1: criminal investigations without their knowledge or consent, and so the
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  Speaker 1: community split. There were a lot of Facebook groups, A
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  Speaker 1: lot of genetic genealogy is just done through Facebook groups,
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  Speaker 1: and some of these Facebook groups just basically forbid it.
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  Speaker 1: You can't talk about this at all because it was
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  Speaker 1: causing too much conflict within the community. I went to
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  Speaker 1: a conference shortly after the Golden State killer case was announced,
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  Speaker 1: and I was a speaker, and they pulled all the
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  Speaker 1: speakers aside and said don't talk about it at all.
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  Speaker 1: You're not even allowed to mention it at all. This
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: is how contentious it was in the community. So the
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  Speaker 1: databases realizing that this was a problem, so Ancestry twenty
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  Speaker 1: three and meters and my Heritage all very quickly changed
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  Speaker 1: their terms of service to say, no, you can't do
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  Speaker 1: this on our database. Gd Match and family Tree DNA
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  Speaker 1: over the course of the past few years have kind
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  Speaker 1: of evolved these systems in response to public outcry about
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  Speaker 1: privacy and consent, and also in response to some branches
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  Speaker 1: and some missteps on the part of companies themselves and
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  Speaker 1: on the part of some of the genetic genealogists. So
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  Speaker 1: they evolved these systems to allow the users to opt
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  Speaker 1: out if they don't want to participate. Question saw the
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  Speaker 1: public outcry that was people that didn't want their profiles
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  Speaker 1: searched by law enforcement answer right. Prior to this, there
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  Speaker 1: had been occasional discussions in the genealogy community, people saying, oh,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: the cops are going to get our data, and other
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  Speaker 1: people were like, no, they only use codis, so they're
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: not going to use our databases. And it turns out
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: they were the golden State Killer case was being investigated.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly when it started. I think twenty seventeen,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and he was arrested in April of twenty eighteen. So
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: law enforcement or law enforcement or genealogies working on behalf
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: of law enforcement were in fact using the databases without
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: the knowledge or consent of the regular person genealogists who
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  Speaker 1: were in the databases question. So it was twenty eighteen
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  Speaker 1: when the terms of service used in people's privacy rights
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  Speaker 1: were recognized. So there's been a series of there's a
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  Speaker 1: whole series of changes to the terms of service, so
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  Speaker 1: I can't speak to precisely which dates and which databases
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  Speaker 1: and which changes. I recall that my Heritage, within a
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: few weeks of the Golden State Killer being arrested, change
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  Speaker 1: their terms of service to explicitly say not in our database.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: All right, we're going to wrap up right here, and
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: pick up with question. All right, let's talk about this case.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to contact me, you can do that
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: at Bobby Kapuchi at protonmeil dot com. That's bo b
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: b Y c ap u Cci at Protonmeil dot com,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: or if you prefer, you can find me on x
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: at Bobby Underscore c apu Cci. All of the links
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: that go of this episode can be found in the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: description box