Latest / Independent Voter Podcast / Running for President as an Independent - EP5

Transcript

Running for President as an Independent - EP5 · Independent Voter Podcast

• 0:01
  S1: Olas media.
• 0:03
  S2: Welcome to the Independent Voter podcast from Independent Voter Project.
• 0:07
  S2: We're going to expand a little bit a new era
• 0:09
  S2: of independent voter news that the journalists just don't cover,
• 0:13
  S2: where we have these debates on a national level, really
• 0:17
  S2: taking on issues so that people have more educated disagreements
• 0:21
  S2: with each other. Let's just explain how the process really works.
• 0:32
  S2: Welcome back to the Independent Voter Podcast. This is the first,
• 0:36
  S2: I think, podcast where we're really talking about our new series,
• 0:39
  S2: how it really works. Um, this is something we're going
• 0:43
  S2: to be doing every month covering an issue. Obviously, Independent
• 0:47
  S2: Voter has covered issues like election reform for a long time,
• 0:51
  S2: really since our existence about 14 years. One of the
• 0:55
  S2: issues that always comes up, you always hear it no
• 0:57
  S2: matter where you're at, is like, first of all, we're
• 1:00
  S2: the lowercase I independent voter project, right? We don't pretend
• 1:05
  S2: to be for an independent party or candidates or pretty
• 1:08
  S2: much party agnostic, right? One thing you always hear on
• 1:11
  S2: if independents are so upset, why don't you just form
• 1:14
  S2: your own party? Or if if they don't like the
• 1:16
  S2: Republican or Democrat Party, why don't they just run as
• 1:18
  S2: an independent? So in our first How It Really Works series,
• 1:23
  S2: we thought it would be, you know, good to go
• 1:25
  S2: in and say, okay, well, what does it really take
• 1:28
  S2: to run as an independent for president? Right. People say
• 1:32
  S2: all the time they should run for independent. You know,
• 1:34
  S2: they're you know, we have 300 million people in this country,
• 1:37
  S2: and we end up with these two candidates that are
• 1:39
  S2: divisive and have, you know, 70% of the electorate want
• 1:43
  S2: to hear from at least a third voice. So why
• 1:46
  S2: why doesn't somebody run as an independent? Karen McCormick, who is,
• 1:52
  S2: you know, very involved in a lot of this, and
• 1:55
  S2: some of you who listen to our first episode have
• 1:57
  S2: already heard from her. Those of you in the reform
• 2:00
  S2: space are probably aware of Kara. As somebody who has
• 2:04
  S2: been an enormous driver of election reform, um, is here
• 2:09
  S2: with us today. She helped us with this series. Um,
• 2:13
  S2: and I want to, you know, welcome you again, Kara.
• 2:16
  S2: So say hi. And, uh, did you find this interesting
• 2:22
  S2: when we really sat down to say, well, what would
• 2:25
  S2: it take to run as an independent?
• 2:28
  S3: Hi, Chad. Yeah, it's great to great to join you.
• 2:30
  S3: I mean, you know the answer. And and I do
• 2:33
  S3: get asked the question all the time. And I have
• 2:35
  S3: gotten asked this question for, you know, more than 30 years.
• 2:38
  S3: How come nobody runs for president of the United States
• 2:40
  S3: as an independent candidate? And the answer is, you know,
• 2:43
  S3: after you do the research, that running as an independent
• 2:46
  S3: is extremely difficult, if not impossible. And that is why that,
• 2:50
  S3: you know, so very few people have ever even attempted
• 2:53
  S3: it and that none have won in modern history. Um,
• 2:57
  S3: so we've written this or we're working on this new
• 3:01
  S3: series called How It Really Works. And our first, uh,
• 3:06
  S3: project is running for president as an independent. How it
• 3:08
  S3: really how it really works.
• 3:11
  S2: Yeah. Well, our most recent example, I think the closest
• 3:14
  S2: thing we have to, you know, a high profile, quote
• 3:18
  S2: unquote independent candidate, right, was someone who started off as
• 3:23
  S2: running as a Democrat. Right. RFK ran for the the
• 3:27
  S2: Democratic Party nomination, then saw he wasn't going to be
• 3:32
  S2: successful there, then went to run as an independent. And,
• 3:35
  S2: you know, now he's joined a Republican administration. One thing
• 3:39
  S2: I always want to qualify this is forget the politics,
• 3:42
  S2: forget the personality. We're talking about the process. It doesn't
• 3:44
  S2: matter who who it is, right? Kara, you've had experience,
• 3:48
  S2: you know, going back, you know, on on a lot
• 3:51
  S2: of different fronts, right? You were very active in Americans Elect, which,
• 3:55
  S2: you know, got ballot access in all 50 states, which
• 3:58
  S2: essentially was just a mechanism for somebody to be able
• 4:02
  S2: to run as an independent. Right?
• 4:04
  S3: That's right. Yeah. We it was only 41 states. Um,
• 4:08
  S3: just just for the record, we were definitely on track
• 4:10
  S3: to get all 50 states to get ballot access in
• 4:12
  S3: all 50 states. Um, back in 2012 for the Americans
• 4:17
  S3: elect candidate. But we, um, ran out of steam.
• 4:20
  S2: Well, 41 states, that's 82% of the states. That's like
• 4:24
  S2: a B.
• 4:26
  S3: It's pretty awesome.
• 4:27
  S2: That's a good solid B, you know.
• 4:29
  S3: That's one of the reasons, you know, that is one
• 4:31
  S3: of the reasons. Thank you, thank you. Um, there are
• 4:35
  S3: rules in every single state. All of the rules are different.
• 4:38
  S3: It's incredibly complex. Um, and it's incredibly expensive. And I
• 4:43
  S3: think it's incredibly hard to do, especially with, with the
• 4:47
  S3: example of Americans elect. We didn't have a candidate. The
• 4:52
  S3: idea with that was to get ballot access for an unnamed, uh,
• 4:56
  S3: Independent candidate for president, and to have that person get
• 4:59
  S3: nominated through an online convention and then award whoever won
• 5:05
  S3: the online convention with the the ballot access to to
• 5:08
  S3: then run for president and compete against the Democrat and
• 5:12
  S3: the Republican.
• 5:13
  S2: So like, you know, putting that into context with, you know,
• 5:17
  S2: this most recent example we brewed up with RFK, right?
• 5:20
  S2: So a lot of people go, well, why did he
• 5:22
  S2: even try to run as a Democrat in the first place? Right. Well,
• 5:25
  S2: we kind of saw. Right. What happened? Um, you know,
• 5:30
  S2: the process. Yes. Is it public? Yes. It's public in
• 5:34
  S2: the sense that, you know, we have this primary process
• 5:38
  S2: and really didn't start until 1912. Most people don't know
• 5:41
  S2: that is that we didn't have a primary process for
• 5:44
  S2: president until 1912, right at the turn of the century
• 5:48
  S2: when the great Progressive ERA, right when we really created
• 5:51
  S2: primaries to get the selection process out of the back room. right? Yeah.
• 5:57
  S3: And you know, what's really interesting about that is that
• 5:59
  S3: that's also when all the, um, citizens initiatives and citizen
• 6:03
  S3: democracy and all the constitutions got amended around that same
• 6:06
  S3: time to give citizens more power to collect signatures, to
• 6:09
  S3: put issues on the ballot, to go before the voters.
• 6:12
  S3: That all happened, you know, a hundred years ago, too.
• 6:14
  S2: Right. And this was all in an effort because and
• 6:18
  S2: this is the conflict we still have today, right? Political
• 6:20
  S2: parties are private organizations, right? I'm not saying that in
• 6:24
  S2: a pejorative sense. Whether it's good or it's bad, the
• 6:27
  S2: reality is they're private organizations, right? But our election processes
• 6:32
  S2: are public, so that that's what creates the conflict here.
• 6:37
  S2: The primary election process was try to bring out some
• 6:40
  S2: of that backroom decision making that was really made by
• 6:43
  S2: the party bosses into the public eye. So the public
• 6:47
  S2: had more influence on the decisions that were made. Right?
• 6:51
  S3: Well, here, here I mean.
• 6:54
  S2: Right. And so that's the goal and that's the conflict.
• 6:56
  S2: But I think RFK became aware pretty quickly. Right. Despite
• 7:02
  S2: building up, you know, a grassroots support and having this
• 7:05
  S2: stuff that the institution, the private institution of the Democratic
• 7:09
  S2: Party wasn't exactly thrilled about RFK running for their nominee.
• 7:13
  S2: I think, you know so well.
• 7:15
  S3: Particularly since there was an incumbent president. Correct. An incumbent
• 7:19
  S3: president from from the the Democratic Party. Exactly. And and
• 7:23
  S3: you betcha. You know, the the DNC was totally ready
• 7:26
  S3: for a multi state strategy to either keep, um, RFK
• 7:31
  S3: on the ballot where they thought it would help them
• 7:33
  S3: or remove him from the ballot where they thought it
• 7:35
  S3: would hurt their candidate.
• 7:36
  S2: Right.
• 7:36
  S3: And.
• 7:37
  S2: You know, and in fairness, this exact this would happen
• 7:40
  S2: if it was on the Republican side, too. Right. And
• 7:43
  S2: so what RFK did is he go, okay, well, I'm
• 7:45
  S2: going to take a stab at doing it as independent. Right.
• 7:49
  S2: And I mean, we saw some of this stuff, right? Uh,
• 7:51
  S2: those who are following the news, like RFK, they challenged
• 7:55
  S2: his ballot access in New York and tried to move
• 7:58
  S2: it like the DNC, you know, had all, you know,
• 8:02
  S2: they went hard after and challenging his first being on
• 8:07
  S2: the ballot. And then when they thought it was in
• 8:09
  S2: their self-interest, his ability to remove himself from the ballot
• 8:13
  S2: after he joined, you know, the Republican side.
• 8:17
  S3: This is RFK talking about how he got out of
• 8:20
  S3: the race because he didn't want to be a spoiler
• 8:23
  S3: for Donald Trump.
• 8:24
  S4: Many months ago, I promised the American people that I
• 8:27
  S4: would withdraw from the race if I became a spoiler.
• 8:30
  S4: A spoiler is someone who alter the outcome of the
• 8:33
  S4: election but has no chance of winning. In my heart,
• 8:37
  S4: I no longer believe that I have a realistic path
• 8:39
  S4: to electoral victory in the face of this relentless, systematic
• 8:44
  S4: censorship and media control. So I cannot in good conscience
• 8:50
  S4: ask my staff and volunteers to keep working there long
• 8:54
  S4: hours or as my donors, to keep giving when I
• 8:56
  S4: cannot honestly tell them that I have a real path
• 9:00
  S4: to the white House.
• 9:01
  S3: Yeah. I mean, he he spent a lot of time,
• 9:05
  S3: you know, fighting challenges in Hawaii, in Nevada, in North Carolina,
• 9:10
  S3: in new Jersey, in Maine, in in New York. The
• 9:12
  S3: one that you were talking about. He, um, they tried
• 9:15
  S3: to get him off on a technicality, saying that he
• 9:17
  S3: didn't really live in New York. And he had filled
• 9:20
  S3: out his paperwork saying, you know, this is my address
• 9:24
  S3: in New York. And they said, you're you're not from
• 9:26
  S3: New York, you're from California. And they kicked they they
• 9:28
  S3: were successful. Um, I think I think I saw that
• 9:33
  S3: in 2024, in New York, there may have only been
• 9:37
  S3: two candidates on the presidential ballot, which is the first
• 9:41
  S3: time that that had happened, you know, in forever, where
• 9:45
  S3: literally there was only two candidates on the ballot. They're
• 9:48
  S3: so good at keeping people off the ballot in in
• 9:50
  S3: New York.
• 9:51
  S2: Yeah. So like, let's just summarize all this just as
• 9:54
  S2: it relates to ballot access, which is just one issue, right?
• 9:57
  S2: And that became a big issue in Rfk's attempt, you know,
• 10:00
  S2: to run as an independent. And Carrie, you had an
• 10:04
  S2: extraordinary experience. You got to 41 state ballot access and
• 10:07
  S2: 41 states, right. And but put this into context because
• 10:13
  S2: you see how much money is spent on presidential elections. Well,
• 10:16
  S2: if you're a Democratic nominee or a Republican nominee, your
• 10:20
  S2: costs are zero.
• 10:23
  S3: Well, it's not quite zero just to give them some
• 10:24
  S3: credit like they do have to pay a filing fee. Oh,
• 10:27
  S3: but but it's nothing like it's nothing like if you
• 10:30
  S3: want to do it as an independent, it's I think
• 10:33
  S3: we've calculated about 865,000 signatures nationwide. And you have to
• 10:38
  S3: collect them in the period of about 180 days overall.
• 10:42
  S3: But there's deadlines for everything. You know, every state has
• 10:45
  S3: has it different. And you know, with Americans elect, I
• 10:48
  S3: think it was between 15 and $20 million that it
• 10:51
  S3: cost us to do that. So the disparity for an
• 10:55
  S3: independent candidate versus, uh, either the Democratic nominee or the
• 11:01
  S3: Republican nominee, that that access to the general election ballot
• 11:06
  S3: is super expensive if you want to do it independent
• 11:09
  S3: from one of the two major political parties.
• 11:12
  S2: Uh, so that I mean, that's that's one issue, ballot access. Right?
• 11:16
  S2: That it's a big issue.
• 11:19
  S3: And it's been an issue forever, like it's been an issue.
• 11:22
  S3: We were looking back, um, we got back as far
• 11:25
  S3: as 1980. There was the ten term Congressman John Anderson
• 11:29
  S3: from Illinois, who ran as an independent after he lost
• 11:32
  S3: the Republican primary to Ronald Reagan. And he got all
• 11:36
  S3: kinds of hung up in places like, you know, Ohio and,
• 11:40
  S3: you know, many different states. And so what happens is
• 11:42
  S3: all of a sudden you're trying to get on the
• 11:44
  S3: ballot in Ohio, or you're in danger of not getting
• 11:47
  S3: onto the ballot in Ohio. And then there's all kinds
• 11:49
  S3: of other repercussions based on which states you do get
• 11:53
  S3: on and which states you don't get on. And also
• 11:55
  S3: the parties make calculations about where they're going to fight
• 11:59
  S3: based on, you know, they'll fight you in a in
• 12:01
  S3: a swing state like Pennsylvania, for example.
• 12:04
  S2: Right, that, you know, you need to be on and
• 12:07
  S2: that you know, that they've calculated that an independent is
• 12:10
  S2: likely to hurt them in the, you know, in the
• 12:13
  S2: context of the two party, you know, fight that's going on.
• 12:17
  S2: That's right. But ballot access, that's just one. Right. So
• 12:20
  S2: that's just one one issue.
• 12:22
  S3: That's kind of like yeah, that's kind of the first one.
• 12:24
  S2: Yeah. And Carrie, you kind of broke these down though
• 12:26
  S2: into like seven kind of buckets of big issues. And
• 12:31
  S2: so like okay we got ballot access. Let's go in
• 12:34
  S2: the next one that people don't really talk about right. Okay.
• 12:37
  S2: You can talk about the money it takes the ballot
• 12:40
  S2: access and all this stuff. But like just the political infrastructure,
• 12:45
  S2: like getting a consultant, having a database like Explain. Explain what?
• 12:52
  S2: You know, that kind of process, like when you're trying you.
• 12:55
  S2: I mean, you've done a lot of work of building
• 12:57
  S2: an infrastructure outside the two parties. Established infrastructure. Like, what
• 13:02
  S2: are the hurdles there? So what do you face when
• 13:05
  S2: you're a presidential candidate and say, I'm going to do
• 13:07
  S2: it on my own?
• 13:09
  S3: Well, I think if you were going to do it
• 13:11
  S3: on your own, maybe one of the first things you,
• 13:13
  S3: you know, you'd need to raise money, right? So you'd
• 13:15
  S3: need a sophisticated national voter database. Um, you would need some, uh,
• 13:23
  S3: voter mobilization. You would need, um, you need data. You
• 13:27
  S3: would need. And so in the end, you need fundraising
• 13:31
  S3: networks that you could go back to, like, you know, networks,
• 13:35
  S3: networks of people. And you'd also need a really experienced
• 13:37
  S3: campaign staff. So, um, the Democrats and the Republicans are far, far,
• 13:42
  S3: far down the road when it comes to these databases.
• 13:45
  S3: The Republicans use, um, a voter database called the Data Trust,
• 13:50
  S3: that is the leading provider of voter and electoral data
• 13:53
  S3: to the Republican candidates and to conservative campaigns.
• 13:56
  S2: So what you're saying, though, like, okay, I'm running as
• 13:58
  S2: a Republican now. I just get access, right?
• 14:00
  S3: I get I call them up and you say, hello,
• 14:02
  S3: data trust. I'm a Republican running in the 27th district
• 14:06
  S3: of California, and I would like to, um, pay a
• 14:10
  S3: subscription to your trust and get access to all of
• 14:14
  S3: your data and all of your organizing tools.
• 14:17
  S2: And I'm a.
• 14:17
  S3: If you're on the Democratic side. Oh, yeah. And I'm
• 14:21
  S3: a and if I call data trust and said, hey,
• 14:23
  S3: data trust, this is this is Kara McCormick. I'm running
• 14:25
  S3: as an independent for Congress in the first Congressional District
• 14:29
  S3: in Maine. They would tell me to go pound sand.
• 14:34
  S2: And so and then the Democrats, you know, obviously, there's
• 14:36
  S2: a lot of news about NGP van. That's the big one.
• 14:41
  S3: That's a huge one. That is $44 million. We looked
• 14:45
  S3: at this and we found $44 million just in the
• 14:48
  S3: last political cycle going, you know, was paid to NGP
• 14:52
  S3: van from all these federally regulated campaign committees. So here's
• 14:56
  S3: an NP van promotional video that I found that gives
• 14:59
  S3: you an idea of the kind of services that they
• 15:01
  S3: provide to to Democrats.
• 15:03
  S5: Campaigns are social. Whether it's knocking on doors, making phone
• 15:09
  S5: calls or going to events. For years, NGP van has
• 15:13
  S5: helped you not only knock those doors and make those calls,
• 15:16
  S5: but we've helped you knock the right door and make
• 15:19
  S5: the right call. And now we're combining the power of
• 15:22
  S5: the van with the power of Facebook. Unfortunately, although it's
• 15:26
  S5: obvious that friends respond better to friends, there hasn't been
• 15:29
  S5: a way for campaigns to use those friendships in a
• 15:32
  S5: targeted way. That's why we created social organizing. Social organizing
• 15:36
  S5: is the only social media application that seamlessly connects Facebook,
• 15:41
  S5: the most widely used social network, to the van, the
• 15:44
  S5: most widely used voter and membership database for Democrats and progressives. So.
• 15:49
  S2: You know, that's their prerogative. Their private organizations, NGP van's
• 15:53
  S2: a private business. They can make those decisions. But that right.
• 15:56
  S3: Without a doubt. But we're.
• 15:57
  S2: Not.
• 15:58
  S3: The fact remains that there's no like NGP van or
• 16:00
  S3: data trust for an independent candidate.
• 16:02
  S2: Right. Which makes sense because there's no institution there for
• 16:06
  S2: an independent candidate. So, you know, there's another issue. Um,
• 16:11
  S2: I mean, we can go we can go on all
• 16:13
  S2: day just on each one of these issues. But, you know,
• 16:16
  S2: we don't have that much.
• 16:17
  S3: Scene Actblue have you ever seen Actblue. And there's a
• 16:20
  S3: there's a counterpart for that. So there's fundraising, right? Right.
• 16:23
  S3: So there's one for the for the Democrats. That's called
• 16:26
  S3: Actblue PAC. They raised $3.8 billion for Democrats just in
• 16:31
  S3: the last political cycle. And then on the Republican side,
• 16:35
  S3: there's Winred and they raised 1.68 billion for Republicans, um,
• 16:41
  S3: in the cycle. And they have, you know, all the
• 16:42
  S3: fundraising technology. And everybody gets in on it, whether it's
• 16:46
  S3: the Republican National Committee or the National Republican Senatorial Committee
• 16:50
  S3: or the National Republican Congressional Committee, they're all using these
• 16:55
  S3: fundraising tools and these fundraising networks and these lists, and
• 16:58
  S3: there is no sort of independent version of a fundraising
• 17:03
  S3: network that if you're running as an independent candidate for president,
• 17:06
  S3: that you can just tap into, like either one of
• 17:08
  S3: these real world examples. This is really what's happening. This
• 17:12
  S3: is how this really works.
• 17:14
  S2: Okay. So now you're you're a candidate. You're running as
• 17:16
  S2: an independent. You say, I don't care, I'm going to
• 17:19
  S2: run this marathon. I'm going to jump over these hurdles. Right.
• 17:22
  S2: And now you're Ross Perot or you're Gary Johnson, or
• 17:26
  S2: you're Ralph Nader or Jill Stein or somebody, you know,
• 17:28
  S2: somebody running outside the system. And somehow, someway, you've managed
• 17:33
  S2: to gather momentum. Right. And, you know, look at Gary Johnson, 2016.
• 17:40
  S2: I mean, he was he was pulling over 10% without
• 17:43
  S2: any media coverage and without really any of that support.
• 17:49
  S2: Then what happens? Right. This is the kind of the
• 17:51
  S2: third bucket you put together. And what it really takes is,
• 17:53
  S2: is like, I mean, you title it the spoiler effect.
• 17:57
  S2: So explain that, explain that phenomenon.
• 18:02
  S3: Well, the spoiler effect basically puts voters into this strategic
• 18:07
  S3: voting mindset when they go into the ballot box. And
• 18:11
  S3: it's it's it often sort of forces them to choose
• 18:15
  S3: between the lesser of two evils because they're afraid of
• 18:18
  S3: spoiling the election. So instead of voting for the candidate
• 18:22
  S3: that they genuinely prefer, like, say, you really, really like
• 18:26
  S3: have a thing for Gary Johnson or for Ralph Nader
• 18:28
  S3: or for Jill Stein, or for whoever it is who's
• 18:31
  S3: on the ballot. You really like that person the most,
• 18:34
  S3: but you feel pressured to choose one of the two
• 18:37
  S3: major party candidates because they, one of the two major
• 18:41
  S3: party candidates, will have the best chance of blocking the
• 18:44
  S3: person that you don't like the most, right? People are
• 18:48
  S3: frequently discouraged from supporting independent candidates because of the spoiler effect. And, uh,
• 18:54
  S3: you know, it it even discourages independent candidates from running
• 18:59
  S3: in the first place.
• 19:01
  S2: Right. And I mean, well, I'm sure you could go
• 19:03
  S2: on IBM and find a million articles on on issues
• 19:07
  S2: related to, you know, plurality voting, voting, which a lot
• 19:11
  S2: of you may say, you know, that's a wonky terminology
• 19:13
  S2: or stuff, but, you know, the reality is we have
• 19:16
  S2: a what's called a winner takes all system, right? You
• 19:18
  S2: don't actually have to get a majority to win. And
• 19:20
  S2: so the spoiler effect, when you have a credible third
• 19:24
  S2: party candidate, I mean, I've seen all the time on,
• 19:26
  S2: you know, I've worked on senatorial campaigns where you have
• 19:29
  S2: polling that shows the independent candidate versus the Democrat wins
• 19:35
  S2: by 20%, the independent versus the Republican wins by 10%.
• 19:40
  S2: But then when you put it into the election and
• 19:42
  S2: then you get the coverage and then the the party
• 19:45
  S2: vehicles motivated and then the media which portrays the The
• 19:50
  S2: Independent as the spoiler. I mean, you put them all
• 19:54
  S2: together and then the independent drops from beating them both
• 19:57
  S2: to literally 5 or 6%. Right. It's it's a powerful.
• 20:02
  S3: They they get it is it is they get they
• 20:05
  S3: get um you know dismissed as wasted votes. They get
• 20:08
  S3: called spoilers. It's like it's it's so, uh, so hard
• 20:13
  S3: to gain traction and any kind of electoral viability when
• 20:17
  S3: you're being called the spoiler and when people who want
• 20:21
  S3: to vote for you are thinking that their votes are
• 20:23
  S3: going to be wasted or. I remember, um, I worked
• 20:26
  S3: on a race in Maine where it was a vote
• 20:30
  S3: for this person is actually a vote for that person. Right.
• 20:33
  S3: You know, like a vote for the independent is really
• 20:36
  S3: a vote for Trump or a vote for the independent
• 20:38
  S3: is really a vote for Harris.
• 20:40
  S2: Yeah.
• 20:40
  S3: And you know, like.
• 20:41
  S2: Yeah.
• 20:42
  S3: That's really a vote for that person, but. Well, you.
• 20:45
  S2: Were telling me about that. You know, I think you
• 20:46
  S2: saw it on John Oliver or something like, you know,
• 20:49
  S2: from years ago when you were researching for this story.
• 20:52
  S3: I did find a really great, uh, clip from last
• 20:56
  S3: Week Tonight. Uh, and it ends with a screed from
• 21:00
  S3: Gary Johnson, who was an independent candidate in 2016, talking
• 21:04
  S3: about the spoiler issue again.
• 21:06
  S6: But the best known of the lesser known candidates are
• 21:09
  S6: clearly Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party nominee Jill Stein.
• 21:13
  S6: In a poll just last month, more than a third
• 21:16
  S6: of young voters said they are considering voting for one
• 21:19
  S6: of them, so they are worth taking seriously. And before
• 21:22
  S6: we go any further, we should probably address the common
• 21:24
  S6: critique that third party candidates can siphon off votes and
• 21:27
  S6: potentially wind up electing an ideological opponent, and there is
• 21:31
  S6: some historical precedent for that. From Teddy Roosevelt's 1912 run,
• 21:35
  S6: which arguably helped to elect Democrat Woodrow Wilson to Ralph
• 21:38
  S6: Nader in 2000, winning nearly 100,000 votes in Florida, a
• 21:41
  S6: state which al Gore famously lost by just 537. But
• 21:46
  S6: third parties are a little touchy about that whole spoiler tag.
• 21:49
  S6: Just watch Gary Johnson respond after it's brought up.
• 21:52
  S7: What do you guys make of the idea that you
• 21:55
  S7: are a spoiler candidate?
• 21:57
  S8: It's just that it's just it's horrible. Why would you
• 22:00
  S8: even say that? We're giving people a chance to vote
• 22:03
  S8: for something, as opposed to the lesser of two evils?
• 22:06
  S8: We're not spoilers. We are the first vote. So I
• 22:10
  S8: guess we should drop out. Is that what you're saying?
• 22:13
  S8: Is that. Is that your editorial here?
• 22:14
  S6: Johnson's anger is understandable. Just dismissing third party candidates as
• 22:18
  S6: spoilers shuts down debate. And while the argument that the
• 22:21
  S6: only thing that stops Trump is a vote for Hillary
• 22:24
  S6: Clinton is a powerful one, so is the argument that
• 22:26
  S6: people should vote for the candidate who most closely shares
• 22:29
  S6: their values?
• 22:30
  S2: I think that that clip's a pretty good segue into
• 22:32
  S2: the next the next issue of debate exclusion. I mean,
• 22:36
  S2: Gary Johnson was really that was, you know, full disclosure
• 22:40
  S2: as somebody, you know, I was hired. I was hired,
• 22:44
  S2: I have a communications company. I've worked for all kinds
• 22:46
  S2: of campaigns. I've worked for campaigns on the right, campaigns
• 22:50
  S2: on the left, and I've worked for third party campaigns. Right. Um,
• 22:54
  S2: I work for Independent Voter Project. I'm not the Independent
• 22:57
  S2: Voter project. I love the Independent Voter project. Um, but
• 23:02
  S2: one of the things I had the privilege of doing
• 23:05
  S2: in 2016 was I was contacted and said, hey, we
• 23:08
  S2: got Gary Johnson. You know, former Republican governor is running
• 23:12
  S2: as a libertarian. Can you help do communications and and
• 23:16
  S2: raise raise funding for this, you know, third party candidate
• 23:20
  S2: effort and said, sure. The issue that came up where
• 23:24
  S2: we got literally millions of people to sign up was
• 23:28
  S2: a campaign we called 15 for 15. It was, hey,
• 23:32
  S2: will you donate $15 so that we can get Gary
• 23:36
  S2: Johnson to 15%, right? Why does that matter? Well there was,
• 23:42
  S2: you know, the whole debate process kind of up in
• 23:45
  S2: up in the air right now. But the Commission on
• 23:48
  S2: Presidential Debates said that a candidate can only participate if
• 23:52
  S2: they are polling at 50% of the electorate. So nobody,
• 23:58
  S2: I think, has more knowledge and more, you know, uh,
• 24:02
  S2: a detailed view of this issue than yourself and your
• 24:05
  S2: work with the great late Peter Ackerman and level the
• 24:08
  S2: playing field. But can you, can you explain to some
• 24:12
  S2: folks what you know, your fourth bucket debate, exclusion and
• 24:16
  S2: the 15% rule, what that means to a candidate who
• 24:21
  S2: is not running as a Democrat or a Republican.
• 24:26
  S3: So the 15% rule is, um, the the rule that
• 24:30
  S3: is promulgated by this bipartisan organization called the Commission on
• 24:34
  S3: Presidential Debates, known as the CPD. It's managed by the
• 24:40
  S3: two former leaders, usually of the two major parties, and
• 24:44
  S3: they have controlled who gets on the debate stage since
• 24:47
  S3: going back to 1987. And they use really strict criteria, um,
• 24:53
  S3: notably this 15% polling threshold requirement that you just spoke about, Chad.
• 24:58
  S3: And so what that means is a certain number of
• 25:01
  S3: weeks before the election, the Commission on Presidential Debates looks
• 25:05
  S3: at five major polls. They decide which polls that that
• 25:08
  S3: they're going to look at. And if the third party
• 25:11
  S3: candidate at that time is not polling at more than 15%
• 25:15
  S3: of the national electorate in at least five different polls
• 25:19
  S3: held about six weeks before the election, they are barred
• 25:23
  S3: from the debate stage by the Commission on Presidential Debates, which,
• 25:27
  S3: you know, is controlled by the two major, major parties.
• 25:31
  S3: And that is why you haven't seen anyone, an independent
• 25:34
  S3: on the debate stage since going back to 1992. And
• 25:38
  S3: even then, um, Ross Perot would not have even qualified
• 25:42
  S3: for those 1992 debates had the current rule been in
• 25:45
  S3: existence at that time. In that case, Clinton and Bush
• 25:49
  S3: both agreed to let Perot onto the debate stage, and
• 25:52
  S3: at that time, too, it was the most watched debate
• 25:56
  S3: in the history of, uh, of American elections. And the
• 26:01
  S3: and Ross Perot, of course, went on to become the
• 26:03
  S3: most successful ever independent candidate, um, when he got 19%
• 26:07
  S3: of the vote. Right after that, they changed the rules
• 26:10
  S3: at the Commission on Presidential Debates, and they put in
• 26:13
  S3: this 15% rule. And no independent presidential candidate has been
• 26:16
  S3: on the stage ever since then. Here's a blast from
• 26:19
  S3: the past. This is Ross Perot announcing that he'll run
• 26:23
  S3: for president on the Larry King Live show. If the
• 26:26
  S3: people gather signatures to put him on the ballot.
• 26:30
  S9: And everybody's saying, why are we in this mess? First
• 26:32
  S9: thing I'd like for you to do, all of you,
• 26:33
  S9: is look in the mirror. We're the owners of this country.
• 26:37
  S9: We don't act like the owners. We act like white
• 26:39
  S9: rabbits that get programmed by messages coming out of Washington.
• 26:42
  S9: We own this place.
• 26:43
  S10: Is there any scenario in which you would run for president?
• 26:46
  S10: Can you give me a scenario in which you'd say, okay,
• 26:49
  S10: I'm in.
• 26:50
  S9: Well, number one, I don't want Taylor.
• 26:52
  S10: I know, is there a scenario?
• 26:54
  S9: You know, if you're that serious, you. The people are
• 26:58
  S9: that serious. You register me in 50 states, and if
• 27:02
  S9: you're not willing to organize and do that, then this
• 27:07
  S9: is all just talk. Wait, wait, wait. Larry. Are you
• 27:10
  S9: saying to the ordinary folks, if you're dead serious, I want.
• 27:15
  S10: To see.
• 27:15
  S9: Some sweat. I want to see some sweat. Why do
• 27:18
  S9: I want to see some sweat? I said it earlier.
• 27:20
  S9: I want you in the ring.
• 27:21
  S2: Well, so, you know, it's almost ten years ago now.
• 27:23
  S2: I think Alexandra Shapiro led the lawsuit. You know, where
• 27:27
  S2: Peter Ackerman was supported, you know, in yourself with level,
• 27:31
  S2: the playing field. I mean, what you probably submitted thousands
• 27:34
  S2: and thousands and thousands of of pages of evidence, and
• 27:38
  S2: had estimated that what it would cost $250 million just
• 27:44
  S2: to create. To pay for enough exposure to have the
• 27:48
  S2: potential to get to 15% in these polling. But also,
• 27:54
  S2: you know, you mentioned their strict 15% rules. Yeah. Well,
• 27:58
  S2: it's strict in the sense that you have to get 15,
• 27:59
  S2: but then it's also subjective to where you have three
• 28:03
  S2: Democrats and three Republicans sitting on a board that decide
• 28:08
  S2: which pollster are you going to, you know, use to determine,
• 28:13
  S2: you know, with this, they get to determine what questions
• 28:17
  S2: are asked and how. Right. So, for example, a pollster
• 28:21
  S2: could go out and say, okay, who is your favorite
• 28:24
  S2: candidate among these three? They can go and say, hey,
• 28:28
  S2: who is your candidate favorite candidate among these eight? Or
• 28:32
  S2: they could ask, do you support the Republican candidate? Entity.
• 28:36
  S2: Do you support the Democratic candidate? Well, if you don't
• 28:40
  S2: support them, then do you support one of these ten candidates?
• 28:44
  S2: I'm only giving that examples because polling can be so misleading. Right.
• 28:49
  S2: And so when you go back to a commission saying, well,
• 28:51
  S2: here's how we're going to select who's going to come in,
• 28:53
  S2: it's anybody who's gotten an average of 15% in these
• 28:57
  S2: five polls. Well, the poll may have been conducted in
• 29:00
  S2: a way that like by the time somebody is able
• 29:04
  S2: to say that they would support a third party candidate. Right.
• 29:08
  S2: They're already like halfway down the poll, and then that
• 29:11
  S2: candidate's been mixed in with like eight other people. And
• 29:15
  S2: whether it's overt or it's not, is it? It's kind of,
• 29:20
  S2: you know, like you said, it's a strict rule, but
• 29:23
  S2: you could pretty much make it so that it's impossible.
• 29:27
  S2: Is that right, Cara?
• 29:28
  S3: I mean, it's very, very hard to do in five polls,
• 29:31
  S3: particularly when you've been, you know, called a spoiler. You're
• 29:35
  S3: kicked off of several ballots, all the other things that
• 29:37
  S3: you're having to go through this 15% rule is, you know,
• 29:41
  S3: it can be sort of the death knell for for
• 29:44
  S3: an independent candidacy. And yeah, you would have to be
• 29:46
  S3: we we figured out that you would have to spend
• 29:48
  S3: about and this was ten years ago, about $280 million, um,
• 29:55
  S3: getting your name recognition up so that you would be
• 29:58
  S3: able to compete with the two major party candidates in
• 30:02
  S3: a national poll on that level. So you would really
• 30:05
  S3: have to have your name recognition be be very, very high, um,
• 30:09
  S3: and have people know who you are because they're not
• 30:11
  S3: going to vote for you to, you know, in a
• 30:13
  S3: poll and say that they're going to vote for you
• 30:15
  S3: if they don't even know your name. Right. You have
• 30:17
  S3: to be known to be liked.
• 30:20
  S2: Yeah. Well, I mean, like we're using Gary Johnson because
• 30:22
  S2: it's the last, like, you know, candidate that almost made
• 30:25
  S2: the debate stage. I mean, he was very close to 15%. Um,
• 30:30
  S2: but like.
• 30:31
  S3: He yeah, he was so close that the kind of
• 30:33
  S3: funny business that you're talking about when you're looking at
• 30:35
  S3: polling and weighting and sample sizes and timing and all
• 30:39
  S3: of those things, you know, can definitely, uh, if you're
• 30:42
  S3: right on the edge of, like, you know, and the
• 30:45
  S3: margin of error. So what if you have 15%, but
• 30:49
  S3: with the margin of error, it's only 13.5.
• 30:51
  S2: But at the same time, the polls were saying that
• 30:53
  S2: more than 70%. So even people that wanted a Democrat
• 30:57
  S2: candidate or Republican candidate said, yes, we want at least
• 31:02
  S2: a third voice on the stage, right?
• 31:04
  S3: Of course, of course, people.
• 31:06
  S2: Despite.
• 31:06
  S3: That, there's this like there's this star chamber of people
• 31:09
  S3: called the Commission on Presidential Debates who make that decision
• 31:12
  S3: a private corporation.
• 31:14
  S2: Yeah, they could very easily make the rule. There's got
• 31:17
  S2: to be a third person, because 70 something percent of
• 31:20
  S2: the electorate want at least a third voice, and that
• 31:23
  S2: third person is the highest, highest polling, you know, third
• 31:27
  S2: party candidate of anybody. Right. That would be a way
• 31:29
  S2: to guarantee at least a third voice and support, What?
• 31:34
  S2: 70 something percent of the population wants, including Democrat and
• 31:39
  S2: Republican voters. But they could adopt that rule. Right. But
• 31:44
  S2: they decided not to. Right.
• 31:47
  S3: So because they are they are completely incented to always have,
• 31:52
  S3: you know, systemic exclusion of independence. This is you know,
• 31:57
  S3: this is how it really works.
• 31:58
  S2: Okay. And so now we get past the debate issue
• 32:01
  S2: and somehow, um, you know, some somehow the candidate running
• 32:06
  S2: for president as an independent still in the game. Right.
• 32:09
  S2: And then we run into your next bucket, which is
• 32:12
  S2: the Electoral College inequality. So explain that one, Cara.
• 32:18
  S3: So to win an election, a presidential candidate has to
• 32:21
  S3: get a majority of at least 270 out of 538
• 32:27
  S3: electoral college votes. Most of the states have um, as
• 32:32
  S3: Chad was talking about what's called a winner take all system,
• 32:36
  S3: and that means that whoever wins the most votes in
• 32:40
  S3: a particular state gets 100% of that state's electoral college votes.
• 32:46
  S3: And this creates a total disadvantage for independence, because Electoral
• 32:51
  S3: College votes are not awarded in proportion to popular support.
• 32:56
  S3: So even an independent candidate who say that person got 25%
• 33:00
  S3: of the vote in all 50 states, a quarter of
• 33:03
  S3: the people went and voted for that person. They would
• 33:06
  S3: wind up with zero Electoral college votes, right?
• 33:10
  S2: This is a much broader conversation. I think there's probably
• 33:13
  S2: lots of areas of disagreement, even among the election reform
• 33:16
  S2: world in the independent film world. But the short of
• 33:20
  S2: it is, I mean, I think we have a lot
• 33:21
  S2: of stuff we've written about this over the years. This
• 33:23
  S2: may be how it really works. Uh, episode just on
• 33:27
  S2: the issue of the Electoral College here in the future.
• 33:30
  S2: But like you think about over the years when the
• 33:33
  S2: Electoral College was first designed, right? Presidential candidates didn't actually
• 33:40
  S2: run to get the votes of voters. And I mean,
• 33:43
  S2: this is even more esoteric. You're actually not voting for
• 33:45
  S2: a presidential candidate when you vote for president. But that's
• 33:48
  S2: a whole nother story. You know, longer story after this debate. But,
• 33:53
  S2: you know, you were supposed to have people that represented
• 33:56
  S2: the district that had, you know, in the Federalist Papers
• 34:00
  S2: that had, quote, no political ties like they were supposed
• 34:03
  S2: to be, just people that weren't involved in politics, that
• 34:07
  S2: went to this, quote unquote, electoral college to cast a
• 34:10
  S2: vote for their district, casting that vote among a bunch
• 34:14
  S2: of other people representing other districts. Right. And it was
• 34:18
  S2: supposed to be a spirited discussion and stuff well, over
• 34:21
  S2: the years. And, you know, as as things got more
• 34:24
  S2: institutionalized and centralized and then the parties kind of took over, right?
• 34:28
  S2: We've gotten to this place where, aside from a few
• 34:30
  S2: states like Nebraska, like California or Texas. They send all
• 34:38
  S2: of these electors on behalf of the major party, right?
• 34:43
  S2: They're not, you know, why would a state like California,
• 34:48
  S2: which has 55 electors last time, say, if you get 50%
• 34:54
  S2: plus one of the votes, you get all 55. But
• 34:57
  S2: if it was, you got 50% minus one vote. You
• 35:01
  S2: get zero. Right. Right. That's when you're talking about an
• 35:05
  S2: individual voting rights issue. I you know, I think that's
• 35:09
  S2: something that's very under-discussed, but also it affects the whole
• 35:14
  S2: incentives of the presidential process itself. Like, why would any
• 35:19
  S2: candidate spend any time in California or Texas if you
• 35:24
  S2: already know 100% of those electoral votes are going to
• 35:27
  S2: go to one side or the other? Now, put it
• 35:30
  S2: in the context of an independent candidate. Say, well, what?
• 35:36
  S2: You have to go and win all the votes in
• 35:39
  S2: one in in a given state, you can't pick up,
• 35:42
  S2: you know, some votes here in California and pick up
• 35:44
  S2: a few in Florida and pick up a few in Kansas. Kansas,
• 35:48
  S2: because all the states have really delegated that process over
• 35:52
  S2: to the parties and said whichever party wins gets all
• 35:56
  S2: of them.
• 35:58
  S3: Right. And so, like, you have a real world example
• 36:00
  S3: of this in the series that we did, which is
• 36:02
  S3: Ross Perot. Ross Perot, he captured 20 million votes. He
• 36:07
  S3: got 18.91% of the of the popular vote. And that,
• 36:11
  S3: you know, was an unprecedented total at the time for
• 36:15
  S3: any non-major party candidate. And, Chad, I wonder if you
• 36:18
  S3: can answer the question, how many Electoral College votes did
• 36:22
  S3: Ross Perot end up with after getting 20 million votes
• 36:25
  S3: from Americans?
• 36:27
  S2: Uh, probably zero.
• 36:29
  S3: That's right. He did not win a single state outright
• 36:32
  S3: under the current system, and he got zero for all
• 36:35
  S3: of his trouble.
• 36:36
  S2: All right. So we got Electoral College inequality. And then
• 36:39
  S2: I mean we've already kind of touched on this campaign
• 36:41
  S2: finance disparities. I mean, besides the donations you raise as
• 36:45
  S2: a candidate, you have PAC networks, institutional donors. I mean,
• 36:50
  S2: we can have a whole how it works series on
• 36:52
  S2: on political party communications. These are special rules that political
• 36:56
  S2: parties can spend money and communicate with their voters. Right.
• 37:01
  S2: That if you're outside the system, you don't get these
• 37:04
  S2: special rules. Right. And then your seventh bucket on internal
• 37:09
  S2: party controls. Right. Even if you're running within the party,
• 37:13
  S2: some of you may remember when Bernie Sanders was very successful, um, in, uh,
• 37:18
  S2: was that 2016, he actually won the state of Virginia.
• 37:22
  S2: The party gave the delegates to Hillary Clinton. The Bernie
• 37:27
  S2: people go to court, right, and say, wait a second.
• 37:31
  S2: The party rules say that Bernie won. He should get
• 37:34
  S2: the delegates from the party. And what did the court say?
• 37:36
  S2: I don't know if you recall that, Kara, but the
• 37:39
  S2: court literally said, yeah, that was your rules. But the
• 37:42
  S2: Democratic Party's a private organization. And you know what? If
• 37:46
  S2: an organization like McDonald's wants to change the rules, then
• 37:49
  S2: they can change the rules. And, you know, you don't
• 37:51
  S2: really have jurisdiction to bring that into state court. Right.
• 37:55
  S2: So we see that happen over and over again.
• 37:59
  S3: Yeah. That 2016 election was was really interesting. The former, um,
• 38:04
  S3: DNC interim chair, a woman named Donna Brazile, she investigated
• 38:09
  S3: and discovered an agreement that specified that in exchange for
• 38:13
  S3: raising money and invested in investing in the DNC, that
• 38:17
  S3: Hillary Clinton would, in turn, get to control all of
• 38:19
  S3: the party's finances, their strategy, all the money that got raised,
• 38:24
  S3: who would be the party communications director, who would make
• 38:27
  S3: final decisions for the DNC. But this is when Bernie
• 38:30
  S3: Sanders was running as a Democrat. Um, you know, the
• 38:34
  S3: nominee had not been chosen yet, but the DNC was clearly, um,
• 38:39
  S3: you know, trying to tip the scales in favor of
• 38:41
  S3: Hillary Clinton, who was in charge of the DNC, sort
• 38:44
  S3: of informally, actually, not even informally. They they they found
• 38:47
  S3: an actual agreement. Um, but the DNC argued back that
• 38:51
  S3: they just like you were saying, they were a private
• 38:53
  S3: organization and that they had no legal obligation to follow
• 38:57
  S3: any kind of impartiality guidelines. And so, you know, that
• 39:02
  S3: just goes to show you that outsiders, even if they're inside,
• 39:07
  S3: it's it's really tough to, to get through pretty.
• 39:10
  S2: Pretty democratic, small D Democratic. Right. And we're not picking
• 39:14
  S2: on the Democratic Party. The Republican Party has there. Right.
• 39:18
  S2: It's just it's the institutions, right. That's what this how
• 39:21
  S2: it really Works series is all about. Right. This is
• 39:24
  S2: our first time, like, you know, I hope you whether
• 39:26
  S2: if you're on YouTube or on social media. Or you
• 39:29
  S2: can send us an email if you if you see
• 39:32
  S2: this and you like it or you don't like it
• 39:34
  S2: or you have a comment is contact us, we want
• 39:36
  S2: you to say, how can we do this better? What
• 39:38
  S2: did we miss? Right? We're not perfect. We all have
• 39:41
  S2: our biases. Cara has hers, I have mine, we have our,
• 39:44
  S2: you know, other authors and and followers, everybody. We're not
• 39:48
  S2: an unbiased network and we don't want to be an
• 39:51
  S2: unbiased platform, right? We're a platform for all the biases
• 39:54
  S2: to come together. Yes. Ivn has a simple etiquette. You
• 39:57
  S2: go to ivn us and you should check out the etiquette.
• 40:01
  S2: It's it's pretty simple. No partisan attacks, no personal attacks,
• 40:04
  S2: no self-promotion. Let's just have a discussion. And yes, we'll
• 40:07
  S2: bring things up and go, well, yeah, that was a
• 40:09
  S2: pretty anti Democratic Party comment or something like I'm not.
• 40:13
  S2: None of us are even we're not anti party. We're
• 40:16
  S2: pro-competition the independent voter network. How do we have a
• 40:19
  S2: better process for all voters. Right. Cara. One reason I'm
• 40:24
  S2: so happy that you're, you're on here with me and me.
• 40:27
  S2: You have this depth of perspective of things that you've
• 40:30
  S2: worked on, right? So I want to thank you for
• 40:32
  S2: your time, for being a part of of this event. Um,
• 40:35
  S2: you know, uh, experiment as we go forward. Um, and
• 40:41
  S2: just reiterate.
• 40:42
  S3: It's a it's a pleasure to to be with you.
• 40:44
  S3: It's it's really important. Just I think it's true that,
• 40:48
  S3: you know, of course, everybody has their own biases, but
• 40:54
  S3: a lot of times you can have a bias but
• 40:57
  S3: not necessarily an agenda. And our agenda, I think, is
• 41:01
  S3: to get information out, um, that, you know, to answer
• 41:04
  S3: some questions for people about, you know, when you when
• 41:07
  S3: you look under the when you look under the hood,
• 41:09
  S3: as Ross Perot famously said, you know, you can find
• 41:12
  S3: a lot of reasons for the dysfunction that we're currently experiencing, um,
• 41:18
  S3: in our politics. And also when you look under the
• 41:21
  S3: hood and you find problems, it gives you the opportunity
• 41:24
  S3: to maybe get involved, to try to fix some of
• 41:27
  S3: these things or to try to do as I've done,
• 41:30
  S3: you know, work within the system as it exists in
• 41:33
  S3: order to discover more about how it needs to change.
• 41:36
  S3: So not always with the expectation of always winning or always,
• 41:39
  S3: you know, getting to 50 states, you know, doing 41 states,
• 41:43
  S3: that taught me a lot.
• 41:44
  S2: It taught you a lot. And I mean, it's it's
• 41:46
  S2: the road to having changes. Right. And so and on
• 41:50
  S2: that point, like as I mentioned, if you're listening, I
• 41:53
  S2: hope you if you're a listener, you can subscribe to
• 41:55
  S2: the podcast, you know, on, on Spotify or Apple Music
• 41:59
  S2: wherever you listen to your podcasts. Um, go to YouTube,
• 42:02
  S2: subscribe to us there. Go to the website, find us
• 42:05
  S2: on on Facebook. You know, share. Share. If you like it,
• 42:08
  S2: share it with your friends. If you don't like it, fine.
• 42:12
  S2: Put it. Put a put a thumbs down sign. You know,
• 42:14
  S2: make a nasty, you know, a comment. You guys you
• 42:16
  S2: guys don't know what you're talking about. But but seriously,
• 42:19
  S2: we always say if you disagree or we got something
• 42:23
  S2: wrong or write something yourself, you know, submit it to
• 42:26
  S2: the editor at IBM. Submit an article. Submit something that
• 42:31
  S2: we'll publish it. We publish things all the time. Um, that,
• 42:34
  S2: you know, maybe the Independent voter Project has taken a
• 42:37
  S2: position against. We've published stuff that, you know, that challenges it.
• 42:43
  S2: That's what we're all about. Want to encourage a better dialogue?
• 42:47
  S2: We think we have better discussions because of it, and
• 42:49
  S2: you end up with better policy and a more informed electorate.
• 42:52
  S2: So I want to I want to thank you again, Kara. Again,
• 42:56
  S2: I'm Chad Pease, I'm your temporary host of the Independent
• 42:59
  S2: Voter podcast. Um, we're very excited. This is the kind
• 43:03
  S2: of inaugural How It Really Works episode. Um, looking forward
• 43:08
  S2: to doing a lot more of them. And I want
• 43:10
  S2: to thank everybody for listening.
• 43:23
  S1: OlasMedia.