Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / HEAR IT! 9-1-1 Call when baby disappears. What does it reveal? Plus man murdered over imaginary girlfriend?

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HEAR IT! 9-1-1 Call when baby disappears. What does it reveal? Plus man murdered over imaginary girlfriend? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The search is on
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: for a missing two week old baby. She was only
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: fifteen days old, but even in that short time, Tim
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Callia McNown.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: She was tiny. You had to feed her every two hours,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: changing the little diapers, and her little head was about
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: the south of what tinis balls. Her parents said they
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: fed and changed her at Fine and Saturday. They reported
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: her missing at ten that morning. Saton Ny, I wanted
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: your the emergency. I just woke up my dot want
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: me up on accounts. I had a tew year old
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and I had two weeks old. My two weeks old
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: is not sleep for her pastors on the floor. She's
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: known her, she's not she's not here. Who got my kids? Man?
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: But don't want my kid back? Man, that's my job
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: and I want my kid. Man. You know, typically when
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: there's a newborn, there are balloons in the front yard,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: there is a celebration, there's a florry of texts and
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: emails and baby photos that go out. Instead of when
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Khaliah McNabb was just fifteen days old, she goes missing.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: What happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories, and
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: we want answers. I want you to first listen to
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the nine one one call. I wanted yours the emergency.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I just woke up my dot up on the couch. Um.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I have a two year old and I have a
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: two weeks old, and my my two week old is
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: not in her sleeper, her pass He is on the floor.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: She's not in her sleeper. She's not in her sleeper,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: she's she's not here. I've looked everyone, I've looked under
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: clothes and everything. What's your addressing? Highway thirty six one? Yes,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: thirty one. Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: child said, my two year old said, she's gone. And
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I've looked everyone in the house, so I don't I
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: don't know another possibility. What lat number are you at?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Thirty one? Okay? And you said you were sleeping, woke
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: up and she was gone. Yeah, my my my two
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: year old cane worked me up. That's r that's was
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: on account. How old is she? Ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay? O? Man?
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: You know who else would have come in your house?
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, as far as I know, nobody would have
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: came in my house. My two roads has popping. But
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I called my dad and I called my grandparents and
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: they don't have a My dad's on the way her. Now, okay,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: all right, how long have you been sleep? Um? The
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: last time I look up with her was around I
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: guess five maybe. Okay, So you were a sleep at
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: five o'clock? Yes, I didn't even mean to a sleep
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: on the couch I put down after dealing with her
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: on North Country? Or can you tell if someone's been
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: there is our blanket? They're gone? Her blankets gone, her past.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: He is here on the floor a blankets not with us.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I mean, I don't know. I
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: guess it's with her. Okay, And I have clothes and toads,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: but I've looked all in and she's not here. Anything
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: else missing, like a baby bag and she would that
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: she would have or anything el her bottles here on
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: top of my sholf. Okay, in my bathroom, ma'am. Huh.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: could be her that could have gone with it? Um, No,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: nothing else with her in her blanket Okay. So the
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: only thing is miss that's missing is her in her blanket. Yeah,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: he didn't talk to the dad or grandma or anybody
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: walking around the park looking for her. Thanks, I'll pick
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: up the rest. I'll pick up the rest, and just
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: for a moment with me right now. Director of the
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Cold Case Institute, Cheryl McCullum, Death Seen It investigator, forensics
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University, psychologists
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: out of New York here and Stark and Crime Online
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter Lee Egan. Cheryl McCullum, I'm gonna go back
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: to the NIMO and call because that's where we start
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: every investigation as we try to establish a timeline. This
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: is around ten a m. In the morning. The mom
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: says she last saw her at five o'clock. But I've
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I've got a lot of questions I want to throw
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: at you. Tell let me just start with I've been
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: dealing with her all night, says the mother. I've been
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: dealing with her. I've been dealing with her all night.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: When I say, and maybe I'm projecting, but when I say,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna have to deal with that, I'm
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: dealing with it. Deal with it, cope with it, handle it.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: That's not a positive thing. That is not I mean,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: that's my interpretation that leaked out me. If anybody says
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: deal with that, they mean handle something that's not right.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: It's not good, no question about it. The very first
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: thing that leaked out at me. As you always want
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to know where the person chooses to start. There. Now,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: in one call, she chooses to let you know, hey,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I just woke up. My two year old woke me up.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: She's letting you know I'm building al aby people out
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: of the sleep. So I can't possibly know anything. So
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: right off the bat, I'm concerned because you would expect
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: to hear a friend, you know what, hold on, well
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: what let me let me just let that soak in
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: a moment, because I'm feeling it in my skin. Actually,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I can feel what you're saying, because the hair on
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: my arms going up. Because I've told you this story,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: all of you have heard it. Don't whine that when
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: John David went missing at the superstore Toys r us
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Or Babies are Us. I turned around. I looked two
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: or three aisles. I didn't see him. I didn't walk
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: up to got a guy or a woman in the
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: little smack top I and said hey, I was back
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: there and with my other baby, and I was nowhere. No.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I started screaming my baby boys, God locked the doors.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Now screaming, I mean hysteria. It sounds like I had
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: a siren in my throat. Right, I hear what you're saying.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: And again, this mother has not been charged. She is
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: not a person of inches, She is not a suspect.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: She certainly hasn't gone in front of a jury, had
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: been convicted. We're talking about the nine one one call. Okay, Cheryl,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I'm projecting my feelings onto her. Now, let let's let
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: me go back to your analysis. You expect to hear
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: somebody frantic nacy. You expect for her to be screaming.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: You never hear this mother asked for help. You never
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: hear her say hurry, please get in here, I need you. Never.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: In parts, she's extremely calm, she's is I mean, it
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: looked under closed. I've looked in toad. That's not possible.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: That didn't even make sense to me. Right there, Karen Stark,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: psychologist joining me, very well known psychologists out of New
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: York City, Karen Stark to say, I looked in the
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: tote bag like that doesn't even make sense to me.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: The baby can can't even turn over, it's just fifteen
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: days old. It doesn't it can't even move to Why
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: would she say I looked to the tote bag. That's
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: a ridiculous giveaway. That's another giveaway, Nancy. I think I
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: feel like it's just coming out of her without her
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: even beginning to realize what she's saying. Also, you noticed
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: how often she keeps saying, my two year old told
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: me my twoets like the two year old is in
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: charge of this situation. The two year old noticed it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: The two year old said Papa was involved. And then
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: she says, but you know, Papa is my grandfather or
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: could be my father, and every thing is about the
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: two year old. Let's analyze this two years old. That's
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: a baby, Sheryl McCollum. Before I play more of it,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: What more did you notice? In the first part, she
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: says she's gone the blankets with her. She notices the
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: passifier on the floor, which would not even be only
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: anybody's register if they noticed the baby's under the crib.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: But she keeps going back to the blanket, So that
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: tells you the blanket is gonna be with the baby.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: She black says, the blankets with her, but she cannot
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: utter the words she's missing, um, somebody kidnapped her. She's
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: not using words like that. I would notice the pass
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I would notice the passy on the ground. I would
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: notice the passy on the floor. I would notice that, uh,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: and I'd probably screaming the pass is here, but she's not. Um.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I might notice the blanket was gone, But when you
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: have a little baby, you've got a ton of blankets.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Usually you know everybody gives you a blanket it and
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I would probably know. I don't know that. I would
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: notice the blanket was gone. But I hear what you're saying.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I don't hear any frank My baby's gone. My baby's
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: gone now here, the two year old told me, I
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: was asleep. I had to I've been dealing with her
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: all night. I looked in a tote bag of clothes
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: and she's not in there, as if she would be. Okay, guys,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: let's hear the rest of this night on one call. Listen.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: could be her that could have gone with it? Um,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: you know, nothing else, just her in her blanket. Okay,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So the only thing is miss Beth missing, as her
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: in her blanket. Yeah, he didn't talk to the dad
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: or grandma or anybody. My dad's looked hearing me. Dad
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: was left and he was walking around the park looking
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: for her because my two year old is I asked her,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: did somebody to come in and take her? And she
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: said yeah, but I don't you know she too, So
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can that. We looked through everything,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: like under the bed, yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Okay, okay,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: go are you all right? What's your name, ma'am? Courtney
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Bell c O R C in E Y B E
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: L L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've been
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: on the way out there. I'm just getting this information
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: to update them. Okay, thank you so much. What's your
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: phone number? Um, I'm not sure if this number my
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: phone bust is the other day. Um, this is my
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: grandmother's phone. She's been with me, all right, So you
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: and the dad both were I'm just trying to get
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: to understand so i can let them know because uh,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: of the questions that they're asking me, you and her
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: dad both were sleeping or he just came back home. Now,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: we woke up together. She woke us up together. Okay.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: The two year old woke uh y'all up and told
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: you all that the baby was gone. Yeah, okay, she
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: she was kind of freaked out. I mean, I don't
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know, because she was just standing there beside
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: the house in the corner and I told her come here,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: and I loved donor and then I told my baby's
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: bad to go check on Khalia. And then he's talking
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: about she's not in here, she's not in here. Okay,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: well the police should be in the area. Now, thank you.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and let you go. Okay, Okay, Sheryl McCollum,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. Something is that the two year old
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: in the background, going daddy, daddy, daddy. Is that what
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing? I can't tell that's exactly Yep, that's what
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: you're hearing. And nathink you noticed she changed her story
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: in the nun would one. She originally says the two
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: year old woke me up, said the baby's gone. Then
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: she says, I sent the dad to go check on
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: the baby and he said she was gone. And then
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: she says, the two year old told me that, but
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't know whether or not I should believe it. Okay,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: your baby's done. You missed one. You missed one. That
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: she was standing in the corner between the sofa in
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the corner. Did I hear her say she was trying
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: to sneak out? She said she was freaked, freaked out, Okay,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: that the baby is standing between the sofa in the corner,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: and she loved on her and then then sent the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: dad to go get Khaliah and that's when the baby's
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: The two year old says she's not there, and at
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: the end she goes, thank you so much. Yeah, I
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: mean that's what I taught. That's what I say to
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: the Verizon person when I paid my bill. Thank you
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: so much. I mean, I I have more feeling when
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to arrange adulta flight. At the end, I'm like,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. I can play out one more thing. Nancy,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: He says, dad is out walking around. Yeah, that I
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: couldn't tell what she was saying. I made a note
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: of that walking around. But why because I can hear
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the little two year old going daddy, Daddy, daddy. And
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: why would they be walking around outside? The baby can't
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: even turn over. Why would they think she's out on
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: the swing set? Same reason she said she thought she
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: could be in the toast for the same reason she
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: said she looked under clothes. Guys, we have more evidence
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: that we are sifting through. But I want to thank
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: our partner making this program on serious X in one
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: thirty two possible today and our search for justice and
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  Speaker 1: for baby Khalia. It's legal Zoom. As a business owner,
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  Speaker 1: checkout legal zoom dot com. We're going straight back to
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: the disappearance of baby College is fifteen days old. What's
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: so odd about it? Joe Scott Morgan Joseph Scott Morgan
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: joining me, forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University, is
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: that the minute the baby is found on these very
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: peculiar circumstances out in the woods in a tote bag. Interesting.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm gonna go back to Cheryl in a moment
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: and Karen and Lee Egan about the tote bag. We
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: hear totebag, topebag, topebag all the way through the Nina
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: one call. Joseph Scott Morgan, isn't the baby found in
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: a tote bag in the woods And the moment the
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: dad finds out about it, instead of falling down an angle,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: she screams out, I didn't do it. Yes, yes, that's
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: absolutely correct, Nancy. Uh. And this is this is a
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: very important point here found within the tote bag. When
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the initial reports came out, they were just saying, you know,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: baby was wrapped in a blanket and placed in some
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: brush or beneath a log I think that came out. However,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: this is really important, Nancy, and we need to pay
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: close attention to this. The child's body is inside of
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: a tote bag and wrapped in a blanket. Now, from
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: an evidentially standpoint, this is monumental because that that acts
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: almost like a cocoon where it protects the evidence that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: could be found associated with a body. So this is
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: gonna be very important going forward. You know, I'm thinking
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: about another issue and Cheryl McCollum direct with the Cold
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Case Institute, you know, I look back on all the murders,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the homicides, the man slaughters that I've investigated, covered, tried,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: played the works. I mean, I don't know how many
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: thousands and that sounds crazy, like a crazy number, But
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: think about it, Cheryl, every week in the district attorney's
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: office in a felony courtroom might get about a hundred
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: new cases every week, sometimes twice a week, right, because
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: the grand jury meet twice a week. And so you
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: multiply that times four weeks a month, times twelve months,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: times ten years, that's thousands of homicides. Think about it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: And when it's a random case, think about it. Think
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: about it. You find the body right there, carjacking, it's
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: right there in the parking lot, it's right there in
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: the driveway. The body is just laying there. Um, what's
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: in a great while? You'll find the body moved. Very
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: rarely will a random killer neatly put the baby in
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: a baby blanket, wrap it up, put it in a toe,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: and lay it out in the woods. That's not how
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: a random murder happens. I can't really I don't know why.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I just know that that's true. You're warning us to
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: believe that a stranger came in and took that kind
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: of time as well, Neede, there's two things that are
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: gonna help with the timeline. That baby's diaper, right, that's
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: gonna show was the baby changed and fed at five
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: am or not? I can tell you're a mom the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: baby's diaper. Hey, but it's key, right And the other
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: thing that I think is gonna come back to um,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you know, bite the mom a little bit. And this
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: is now when one call is she never gave the
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: babies description. You're right, I mean, I can tell you
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: right now what the twins are wearing. I can even
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: tell you call me crazy, Karen start. I can even
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: tell you what color their socks are, and they're underwear
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: because I laid it out last night. M hm. I
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: can tell you right now. Nobody's asking me, so I
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: won't go into it. Yeah, you know what, You're right,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Lee Egan. What more do we know? I noticed a
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: little two year old according to the mom said Papa
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: did it. That's her. That's the two year olds grandfather,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the mom's dad. But in the background you hear the daughter,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: the little two year old going daddy, daddy, daddy. What
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: do we know about the grandfather? The two year old
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: is in the grandfather's custody right now, so he's not
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: considered the person of the case. Again, she has not
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: been charged, she's not known as a suspect a person
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: of interest at all at this juncture, Karen, start, what
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: about Cheryl McCollum's observation. She never said what the baby
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: was wearing or whether baby even look like and she
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: never mentioned the baby's name as far as I can recall.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: But she also listened to her voice, Nancy, as you said,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: there's no hysteria, there's no she's being so polite, thank
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you so much, thank you so much. And no, my
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: baby is missing. You don't hear that. You don't hear
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: her getting crazy over the fact that this baby is
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: only two weeks and she's checking a tote. I've got
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: so many notes, I hardly know where to start. Speaking
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: of the grandfather, listen to what he has to say.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: She was tiny. You know, you had feet her every
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: two hours, changing a little diapers. Then her little head
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: was about the size of a tinis ball. There she
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: was so little. You know, from the first time that
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: you pick them up, there love there, that love is broken.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I mean it hurts like I have never heard before.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Now that is what you're hearing from the maternal grandfather. Okay,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Now keep in mind you never know what, if any
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: bad blood is between the wife's father and the husband. Okay,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: so we don't know their history, we don't know why
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: he feels the way he does about the dad. I'm
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: talking about Christopher McNabb, who, as soon as he hears
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the baby Khalia is missing and that she's found, he goes,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't do it. That's the first thing he says. Okay,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan death scene investigator
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: and professor of forensics. Joe Scott, please evaluate the documents
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: we've just gotten from the courthouse. There's actually as as
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: stark as they might be, there's actually a wealth of
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: wealth of information in here. And uh, let me address this.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: The police in their affidavits had stated that and this
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: is rather graphic, h Nancy, But the reality is they're
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: saying that this poor baby's skull, uh was absolutely decimated
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: and crushed. Okay. What they do say in here is that,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and it's it's key. They're saying that the baby was
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: struck by an unknown object. They're not saying hands, they're
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: not saying fist. They're saying that it was wielded. The
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: police are that the object was wielded by this father.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: What that means is they've identified something. We don't know
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: what it is yet, and they might be able to
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: marry up a pattern here. And they're taking an object
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: and putting it in his hand. And that's key because
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: this isn't like a random striking event where you see
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: somebody that will ball up a fist. This is somebody
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: that took the time to go get an object and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: then perpetrate this kind of trauma, this lethal trauma on
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: this low angel. You know, I'm just just thinking about
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: it because, um, I have a very young relative that
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: was hit by a van as a child and the
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: damage to the skull was just almost well, we didn't
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: know that he was going to live. I'm happy to
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: say he graduated with honors from college and a double major,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: so he's brilliant. But I remember that damage, that horrible
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: damage to his head. I'm thinking about a little baby
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: laying in the crib and how this whole thing, Cheryl mccollo,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: must have gone down. How How how did the mom
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: not know should hear the baby screaming or the two
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: year old didn't run into a room. But I can't
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: help it, Cheryl, I guess I'm projecting again, because that's
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the single. I mean you you know my story. This
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: is single most important thing to me on earth, by
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: those babies, my bababy. There's no way that she didn't
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: hear the baby crying, and then the crying immediately stopped,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: and he's run around getting the blanket, getting the toe bag, leaving.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: There's no way she's not in some way full of
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: knowledge about what happened inside that home. Hell, the two
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: year old knows it, not just sick sick about it
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: about what I just got Morgan, Can we go back
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to what we've learned about the m O, the method
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: of operation, the modus operandi, or what we know about
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: cause of death, manner of death. What exactly exactly do
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: we know? Well, they're they're not being very specific, and
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: let's keep in mind this is coming from the police,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: not the medical examiner. This is being you know, told
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: to us by the police department. What we do know
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: is that disappears to be blunt force trauma. Another big
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: piece here is that if this injury is as bad
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: as they're saying that it is, Nancy, I I believe
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that there will be transfer of evidence from that child's body,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: and I'm talking specifically like blood evidence that would have
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: wound up back on the perpetrator of this, of this event,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: this this horrible, horrible crime, and that is something they're
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: going to have to look at very very carefully. I
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: just hope that the clothing of this individual has been sequestered,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that he was not allowed to bathe. I hope that
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: they took very very detailed documentary photographs of this individual
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: as well and examine him from stem to sturma. Well,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I'm also thinking, Karen stalk about what the two year
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: old may have seen and could possibly relay, because you
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: hear her in the background saying daddy, daddy, as the
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: mom's talking and I want one. You hear the two
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: are going daddy, dad, me, and you hear her talking.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: You hear them talking about the fact. You hear the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: mother saying the two year old told her. And when
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: you think about two years old, how traumatic that is. Nancy,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: remember when the twins were too. That's so young they
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: still remember things from when they were too. By the way,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: of course, they do want you to hear one more
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: piece of evidence that we have right now of a
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: convenience store clerk that came upon the father, Christopher McNabb.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: He just came in and he said, how you remember
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: me from last night? And I said another. He said,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: you sure, I'll see yes her. He remember my baby's
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the one that got kidnapped. And I said to leave me, y'all,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: be leave me to see him the thing him and
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: then they were standing there and I said, please don't
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: leave me. And then he started haling and talking about
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: they're gonna get me, They're gonna get me. I've been
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: running on Davin in the woods all day and I
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: tried to call im one one, anyone. He would go through,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and I was called again when you go through, And
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: then the third time I called went through and he's
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: still seeing you here, and I said, uh. He said,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: they're not gonna get me, he said, and he didn't
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: anybody trust them. Well mean they're gonna get in trouble too,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: like that, you know. And then he went to the door.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And when he went to the door, I hit it
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: again and got nine one one, and down I come
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: nine one one again and I got him and I said,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: he's here. He's at thirty six at the Chevron. He's
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in my store. He's going praisey. I don't know what
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: his problem is, but he said he was running from
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: the cops. He'd been hit in the woods all day.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I said, he's he's really scary. Somebody needs to get
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: here quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: is dead. What does that mean to you? He's considering
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: a person's of interest. He is a person of interest.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: But he kept saying I didn't do it. I didn't
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: do it. We didn't do it. They did it. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: when y'all are gonna be surprised when y'all found out
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: who really did it. But I didn't do it. And
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you're hoping that somebody comes for because they're still now.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I was just hoping they wouldn't leave me in the
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: store by myself, because I mean, you know, he just
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: leaves to what people say. And he came to the register,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: you know, he paid. He said something to the cashier.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I couldn't because he's kind of mouth. But then he
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: turned around and he bagged and he looked at everybody
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: me and can't come and cat call cattle's right there
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: and come a cat in his dog? You know, man,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I looked at us and say it. I'm telling all
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: y'all they're looking for me, and I've been hiding in
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the wools, he said, But I didn't do it. I
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: just want the world no, I didn't do that to
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: my baby. And young man looked like he was exhausted
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: and whatever. This man like he's running in film. But
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: sometimes you know, you just got to stop and talk
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to the police, let him know what's really going on.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: But he said that, he said, I'm telling the world
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: and everybody in this though I didn't kill my baby.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I didn't well, I didn't do that. We were candy,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: he said, I didn't do that because I told I said,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: with service or what happened to your child? You know?
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: And he got I was just stoked so fast. And
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: then that's when men kind of sounds to him related
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: and uh, catch on calling police, police. And now we
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: travel to Florida where a man guns down hold on,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I hope you're sitting down for this. A man guns
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: down another man from making a pass at his imaginary girlfriend.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Let me let that soap in just a moment. Alan
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Duke first of all, Alan Jake with me. Dr Tiffany Sanders, psychologist,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, and John Limley Crime Stories Contributing
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter Alan Duke Uh an imaginary girlfriend. Can I
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: just tell you something. There was a movie, I'm trying
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: to remember which one it was, where there's a little
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: character as a cartoon and he's always talking about his
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: girlfriend from Canada, and he's going he always says, she's real, Bro,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: she's real. That's not a Google image, Bro, she's from Canada.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: She's gorgeous and a the bottom it says Google image.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: It's ug. It's not real. It's not a real girlfriend.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: She's not from Canada. It's an imaginary girlfriend. Okay, I
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: think it's coming back to me. I think it was
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: in Stark. I'm not sure. Okay, back to you, Alan Dick.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Imaginary girlfriend. You can go ahead and confess. Now you're
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: married to a beautiful woman. I've seen her. She's real
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: or else he paid somebody a lot of money to
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: pretend it was. And I've seen the wedding photos. It's real.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: But Alan, come on, you've had an imaginary girlfriend before? Yes,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I have actually had probably an elementary school there was
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Debbie was sitting across the aisle, uh the row from me,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and I always imagined she was my girlfriend. I think
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: this goes actually beyond Debbie in the first grade. This
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: is like not anybody that you've ever met. It's somebody
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: that doesn't even exist. This guy has an imaginary girlfriend
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: and this lord of guy his name is Brian Disio,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: who thirty years old, guns down David Armstrong after accusing
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: him of making a romantic advance at his nonexistent lover.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: They're in Port Richie, Florida. Now, this is according to
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the Tampa Bay Times. They report that the suspects mother
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: and her boyfriend were there at the time of the shooting,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and Pasco County Sheriff Chris Knocko quote, Please note, Brian
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: does not have a girlfriend. Okay, in his mind he did,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: but in reality he didn't. Now, just correction to everybody
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: before Tiffany Sanders. Dr Tiffany gets cranked up about mental
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: illness on this one. Pretending you have a girlfriend is
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: not a mental illness. Let me just start with that.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what happened here, Well,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: what we know at this point is that at the time,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: always said and done, there were two dead men. As
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, Brian to Sarrio, a thirty year old man.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: He fatally shot fifty six year old David Armstrong, a
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: friend of his mother's whom he believed was making advances
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: on his girlfriend, this girlfriend that doesn't exist. This happened
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: sometime in the afternoon on Thursday. We understand it was
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: just an hour before classes were to be dismissed at
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: a nearby elementary school, and that elementary school had to
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: be put on lockdown because once the police arrived, they
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: exchanged gunfire with the suspect right in the middle in heaven.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize, Alan, do you there was a shootout? Alan,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: You've got a daughter now, she's all grown up in
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: beautiful and all that now, but you remember when she
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: was a young girl. And I've gotten those um tech
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: emails from the school when they text out to all
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the parents Alert Alert. I nearly pass out. When I
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: get one of those. I drop everything I'm doing. I
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: don't even read the whole thing. Then I find out,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: you know, there's high winds warning, or there are there's
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: a power surge, or you know, it's never anything serious.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: But can you imagine a parent getting a text or
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: an email while they're at work saying we're in lockdown
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: because there's a mad shooter down the road. Well, truth
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: be told, it was probably my daughter they were texting about.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: But the guys, that's not true. She's she's perfect in
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: every way. Go ahead, right, Yeah, No, I've actually been
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: in that situation and it's the scariest thing in the world.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: And I remember very clearly when my daughter was in
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: elementary school, rushing to school because I got one of those.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: It's terrible. Back to John Linley, I don't want to
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: get sidetracked on me getting a text from the children's
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: school when there's a power search. I want to get
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: back to what is at hand. There is a dead body.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: There is a dead body, all because of an imaginary girlfriend. John,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Lily Alry tell me how this thing went down, John, Well,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: what we understand is that the victim, the fifty s
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: year old man David Armstrong, was a friend of the suspect,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Brian to Sarrio's mother, and that he had gone over
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Uh they were talking in the garage. Armstrong comes out
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: of the house and he confronts Armstrong. This is the suspect.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Confronts Armstrong and says, you know, uh, you need to
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: stop hitting on my girlfriend and apparently open fire right
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: then and there. But okay, I want to go to
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany Sanders. Psychologists joining us. Dr Tiffany, Now I
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: know I'm ready for you. Doctor. I'm ready for you
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: because I just put to it on the record. Men
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: pretending they have a girlfriend is the oldest, oldest trick
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: in the book. But I want to ask you, first
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: of all, why do people pretend they have sweethearts, lovers, girlfriends, whatever. Why? Well,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: usually that's something that we do as kids, right, It's
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: part of our our our general being raised and growing up. No,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Dr Tithany Sanders, A child pretending to have an imaginary
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: friend is a lot different than a grown man acting
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: like he has a lover, alright, Because I guess I
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: grew up in that age where one of my favorite
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: t shirts was a woman needs a man like a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: fish needs a bicycle. And I don't know where it
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: came from. I think I stole it from my sister.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: So you know, I never pretended I had a boyfriend ever.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Either I had one or I was blissfully unattached. What
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: as a child we all do that? I did it.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like I had a friend that was from Puerto Rico.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know why wait wait, wait wait, I've got okay,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany, I think I need to bring on a
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: shrink to deal with. Dr Tiffany. Who is our shrink?
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: You didn't just have a friend. You had a friend
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: from Puerto Rico. I called him, you know, some Puerto
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Rican sounding name. I just thow, Dr Tiffany, you know
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: what the name was? What was it? Enrique? I just
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: thought it was cute. You know, it is cute, That
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: is cute, and that was But that was as a child,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: and I was watching a lot of news with my parents,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: so I probably just made some associations, but as a
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: grown act. And now love you even more, Dr Tiffany,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: because I've never seen a cheek in the armor before.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: But now that I know you not only had any
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: imaginary friand but his name was Enrique. Totally in love
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: with you now go ahead. And it was cute, he
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: was super cute. But of course, but in this particular case,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: this is a man likely dealing with schizophrenia, some form
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: of delusional disorder about why people pretend they have girlfriend boyfriends.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: But that's why this is someone who was seeing things here,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I mean regular people Dr Tiffany, regular people that do
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: every shrink I bring on insists that everybody's mentally ill.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany, You know how much I respect you, right,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: but I do not believe that pretending you have a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: girlfriend it's a mental illness. I'm not talking about this guy,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I'm asking you again in general, why do people pretend
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: they have girlfriends slash boyfriends? Why? Well, when you're an
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: adult and you have no friendships, you have poor social skills.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: You know, you make things up to look normal. And
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: then in his mind he was trying to appear normal,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: but he started things, shadows, images, something to the extent
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: that he thought that that person was Actually he was
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: having conversations, likely in his head with that person, and
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: and visual life gave him more than a name like
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I did if I'm even last name, an occupation or
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: what have you. And then in his mind, delusional, he
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: saw his friend looked like he was making a pass.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: It probably could have been an old refrigerator in the garage,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: and he went local psycho and Tiffany, you're right, because
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: it boiled down to quote, an absolute gun bottle in
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the middle of the street. I mean, Karen Smith joining
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: me forensics expert. You and I have seen a lot
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: of crimes, right, and Karen Smith and I, who's a
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: renowned forensics expert, I've actually performed a lot of scientific
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: expert experiments together, Karen. When you look out your window,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: you might see the trash truck coming by, or you
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: might see you know, women in a cluster walking or
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: jogging or whatever. If you live in a big city,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: you'll see you know, cars flying by the front of
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: your place like it's the interstate. But you typically don't
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: see a gun battle in the middle of the street. No,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: you don't, and that would be not only disconcerting for
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: the neighborhood, but my god, right across from an elementary school.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: That is terrifying. And what really struck me about this
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: is when I saw the article. Uh, this man had
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: one gun that he either emptied completely or it jammed,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and he went back inside and retrieved a second one
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: to finish the job. The victim didn't die right away,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: he was wounded, and the forensic evidence will show that.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: And this guy went back and got a second gun
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and that was the one used in the gun battle.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And that is what we call clear premeditation. Premeditation under
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the law is when you intend the act and intent
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: or malice can be formed in the twinkling of an eye.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: And that means in the time it takes you to
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: point the gun and pull the trigger, that is time
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: for premeditation. Under our law across this country, to form
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: premeditation or malice, murder or murder, one does not require
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: a long plan such as poisoning someone over a period
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: of time, or a murder for higher where it's intricately planned.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: No premeditation can be formed in an instant. And this guy,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: based on what Karen Smith is telling us, along with
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: John Limley, not only unloaded on the victim, but then
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: went inside, got another gun and came out and then
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: finished killing him. He wasn't dead to start with him,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Alan Duke joining me from l A, isn't it true? Alan? Uh?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: This is something you and I both noticed. This guy
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: had a gun collection and a stockpile of ammunition, a stockpile.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: And if he did have any mental issue other than
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: claiming he had a girlfriend, imaginary girlfriend, If he did,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: why was he why did he have an arsenal? Alan?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Do you can somebody tell me that you know I've
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I'd love to have an arsenal of guns. I love guns,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: but I don't have them because there's no reason for
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: me to have them. I was in the military I
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: used them then. But I'm just perfectly fine with going
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: to a shooting range sometime in borrowing somebody else's gun.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: But there are people who love guns. They think that
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: they are their girlfriend, an imaginary girlfriend is there. Maybe
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: they're a R fifteen. That might have been what this
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: guy was doing. Okay, Alan, I actually wish she hadn't
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: said that, because now I'm never gonna look at you
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: in the same way again when you refer to guns
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: as girlfriends. That's a little not me. Yeah, you said it, Alan,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: You some people love their guns like they're their girlfriends.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: They I don't know. Maybe maybe Dr Tiffany can tell
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: us to do people get sexual satisfaction out of holding
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: a gun? Okay, you know what you're scared because other
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: than now, other than the ponytail, I thought you were
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: fairly normal. Now, Okay, Dr Tiffany, go ahead and answer him,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: because I'm not touching them with a ten foot pole. Well,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it's it's about what they find is a
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: priority in their life, and so they can treat it
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: like it's you know, high ranking member, like a wife,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: a husband, a girlfriend. Most people don't sexualize objects. For
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: someone to sexualize an object, we have to their sanity,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: their mental their mental health. But I do find uh,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: like in the Vega shooter that the way that that person,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: you know it, loves and and respects it, and they
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: revere their guns and their bullets, that's something to be questioned.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: And why would you do that, Like, like I was said,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: unless you're in the military, why are we idolizing that?
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: And for someone who's never been a military, who's only
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: thirty years old, and you have an arsenal of weapons,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: that's something to question their mental health with. Well another issue, uh,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith forensics experts letting me along with John Limley,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. First to you, Karen, he did
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: not live alone, So how did his family allow him,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: if he did have a mental issue, to have an
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: arsenal of guns and ammunition? Why? Well, from past experience,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: there's gonna be some denial. We didn't know he was
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: stockpiling guns. We didn't know he had all the dimunition.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: We don't go into his bedroom. That's his sanctuary. That's
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: where he does his thing. Uh, that's the story I've
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: heard over and over and over again. It makes me sick.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: You have a responsibility. This man has a history of
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: mental illness. The family, if he's living there, has a
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: responsibility to make sure that he's safe and the neighborhood
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: is safe. Um. I don't understand how anyone could really
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: have a stockpile quote unquote of ammunition and guns and
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: other people in the household not know about it. I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: don't neither. So okay, here's another issue, Jackie. Here in
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the studio with me, John Limley, maybe you can answer
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: this one. Jackie wants to know how did this guy
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: pass a background check if he had any mental illness,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: which I'm not convinced of, because a lot of guys
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: pretend they have a girlfriend. You know, the old trick.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: John Limley is showing the picture of the girl that
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: comes with the wallet and pretending that she that's actually
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: a photo she gave you, absolutely even though she looks
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: like fair a faucet or yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: How you're dating yourself, by the way, but go ahead,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: go ahead. So how did he pass background checks to
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: get guns? Well, this is still trying to be figured
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: out here. The suspect did have a history of mental illness,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: and uh, we're we're very anxious to know exactly how
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: he was able to take go through the individual steps.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: We do know that once this gun battle took place
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: near the elementary school, the suspect ran back to his
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: mother's home, and it's there that the police set up
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a perimeter around the home before the suspect was killed. Now,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: it's not yet clear exactly how he died now, whether
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: by police gunfire or a self inflicted injury of Sheriff's
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: robot reportedly found to Sario's body in the home before
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: the sheriff sheriff crew actually went into the house. Tell
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: me about that, Karen Smith, forensics expert. Karen, how do
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: you process a scene like this? And I guess they
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: sent the robot in? How does that work? So George jetson?
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: But how does that work? Um? To send a robot
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: into a scene? Let me just hold on. I guess
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: you saw him alone? Three right? I mean, who hasn't
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: where there is the little car and it's got the
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: camera on toughnes See. This is how I would explain
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: it to a jury. What somebody like Karen explained it
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: to me. You put a camera on top and you
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: send the robot car in to look around. I'm guessing
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: that's how it worked. But they sent a robot in first.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: How do you, Karen Smith, you're the forensics expert, how
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: do you go about processing a scene like this and
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: figuring out what went down? Well, it's gonna be a
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: meticulous and the robot. Yeah, it has a camera affixed
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: to it and they use it for disarming bombs. They
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: can use it for surveillance like they did here, to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: find out if the suspect is still hold up and armed,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: or if he's deceased or injured. UM. But what they're
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: gonna do is they're going to have to number and
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: label all those shell casings out on the roadway, everything
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: in the garage. Deal with the victim at this point,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: and once they get inside, which is going to be
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: one of the last things they do, they're going to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: find out if there's gun shot. It's called stipling, which
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: would be indicative of a suicide gun shot. That's the
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: gunpowder that this charges out of the gun. Um, if
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: it's a self inflicted wound, that will be present. If
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: it's a shot that came siling, different from just a
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: gun shot residue. It's actually you've got the gun so
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: close to your skin. It's the contact wound and it
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: actually kind of burns the skin a little bit right right,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: You can either have the powder burns, depending on how
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: far away the muzzle was. Um that'll be present if
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: it's a self inflicted wound. If it's not and it
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: was a shot from outside, they'll be able to tell
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: that as well. So that's what we know right now
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: in the scene is still being processed, and I'm sure
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: the family of the victim is just beside themselves because
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: he did absolutely nothing wrong. David Armstrong suddenly accused uh
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: flirting with Brian de Sarrio's imaginary girlfriend is now dead,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and while we're talking about it, they're planning a funeral.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: It's just almost too much to take in. You've got
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the mother who loses her longtime boyfriend, David Armstrong and
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: now her son, and we're talking about him as all
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: of his problems and his imaginary girlfriend. But you know what,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: your son is your son, and you love them without question,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: no matter what, warts and all, And it's just devastation
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: So there are a lot of questions to be answered,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: and I can't think of anyone better than Dr Tiffany,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith, John Lemley and the Duke to try to
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: figure it out with me. So just a little pause
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: as we go about our business right now, there is
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: a family herding because of this scenario. Nancy Grace, Crime
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Story signing off. Goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing
• 49:02
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  Speaker 1: That's club dot crime Con dot com.