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A Math Professor's Writing & Self-Publishing Journey (with Allison Dillard) · The Daily Writer

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you know that I have a soft spot for educators.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Teachers can have so much influence outside the classroom simply by writing a book.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And today you'll learn how one math professor took the self-publishing plunge and wrote two successful books that have helped her build a platform and a business.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hello, my friend.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is Kent Sanders from Inkwell Ghostwriting.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this episode of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is the show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: As always, thanks so much for joining me on this episode.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my guest today is Allison Dillard.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: She is the author of two math books, which are titled Crushed Math Now and Raise Your Math Grade.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And both of those are designed to help students and their parents navigate the challenging waters of math.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Allison holds a BA in math and a BA in English from Scripps College, as well as an MS in math from Claremont Graduate University.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Allison has also conducted research for Boeing, Los Alamos National Lab, and the National Science Foundation.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Allison is currently helping parents thrive in the chaos, stress, and uncertainty of the fall 2020 school year through courses as well as her Raise a Math person membership.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Allison is also the mom of three amazing kids.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation today, you'll learn why math is a skill everybody should learn, how she approaches math differently in her books, how her books have helped her to build a platform and a business, and also all about her self-publishing journey and some really cool details of how these books actually came together.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is a fascinating conversation that will definitely inspire you to get busy writing your first book, or if you've already got books out there, it's definitely going to inspire you to write your next one.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, let's get to the conversation with Alison Dillard.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Allison, I've been looking forward to this conversation because you are a math wizard and an author, and those are two things that oftentimes you don't hear of going together in the kind of author and entrepreneur world.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited about this.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for being on the podcast.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me here.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So share a little bit about your background as a math teacher.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're the first guest that I've ever had who is a quote unquote math person.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know the term math person is not very scientific or specific, but I think the world knows what I mean when I say a math person.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So talk about your background uh of being a math teacher and a math person and your journey into writing.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, definitely.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think, well, I guess I'll start back at the beginning.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually a math major and an English major in college.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that might have sort of set the um the ground moving for me to be an author and a math professor.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I really, I really loved math in college and I also really loved to write in college.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, after college, um I was supposed to take a job as an actuary, which is doing um sort of you know statistical analysis for insurance companies, but I I actually decided instead to go and be a bartender and a screenwriter for a few years.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I've always sort of gone back and forth, back and forth between uh the math and the English side.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did, you know, end up later in my 20s going back to get my master's in math, um, and then became a math professor at a community college.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and then the writing, you know, I had a year off where I had some health issues, and I had to take a year off of teaching.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was a tough year, but the sort of the silver lining in all of that was that I had some time then to actually write this book.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote this book called Crush Math Now, which kind of just took everything from, you know, all of my years of teaching and also tutoring.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I actually started tutoring math back in high school.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all the things, all like the non-math things that I wanted to teach students that would help them in math.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of instead of like math foundations, it was, you know, the motivation and the discipline and the grit and the study skills and the test-taking skills and all of those other things that students need in order to succeed in math.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the book that I wrote sort of for my math students and and other people that you know I know are in have similar struggles with math.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you mention math, bartending and screenwriting, it would seem like those things don't have anything to do with each other, but I just realized, and of course I'm sure you've realized this for a long time, but really that those are similar disciplines in a way because they all have an underlying structure behind what seems like chaos to people who don't know what's going on.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean I don't know anything about bartending.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know much about math other than it's important and we needed to run the world and do everything in our lives.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I do know some about screenwriting, but there's a structure underneath all those.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I what would you say that what is what drew you to math and what continues to draw you to math as a discipline?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because as a non-math person myself, someone who you know, I just went up through geometry in high school and actually really enjoyed that, but I never took beyond that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: For people who who don't like math or who who don't feel like they can ever understand it, what is it about that discipline and area of study that you find so fascinating?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think I've always enjoyed math because it's a challenge.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I like things that are challenging.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe I'm just weirdly drawn to that.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So in college, I think math was the one major that I wasn't sure I could major in, you know.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I and so I think I just kept taking math classes because of that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't actually, I didn't go into college saying, you know, I'm I'm awesome at math and I know that I'm gonna be able to major in that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I don't know, I think I wanted to be able to major.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to at least be the sort of, I wanted to know that I could.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just I kept wondering if I could take that, could I pass that next level of math?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I'd get there, I'd wonder, oh, well, you know, that next one, which I hadn't thought about.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, could I pass that too?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I just sort of kept going.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of my junior year, I had enough credits to major in math.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, I think it is the challenge that I really enjoy about it.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the challenge that I think that's what I enjoy teaching about it also, because I think that math is a way to teach students how to overcome challenges.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, whether they want to go into a discipline that has uses math or not, that's something that they'll take with them, you know, wherever they go.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that approach.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the exact same approach that I that I take in a lot of things that I teach.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So in my college, college uh career, one of the courses that I teach is freshman-level speech class, which most people would think doesn't sound interesting.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's kind of something that most people think, I just got to get through that, and then I can get onto the more relevant or practical classes.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I know you that you take the approach with math that it's not just about math, it's really about other things.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And math is a gateway to developing those tendencies to want to problem solve and overcome challenges and thinking that you can't do something, but then when you do it, it's like, oh wow, I did this.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that what you see in students that you've helped over the years?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that when they get into math and accomplish things that they didn't think they could do, then that tenacity and that grit really applies to other areas of their lives.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you probably see that a lot with your class as well.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine that speech as a freshman, at least for me as a freshman, that would have terrified me.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the same way that math terrifies other people, you know, but everyone has different fears.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, yes, if a student who fears speech can get over that fear through your class, then it just opens up this world of possibilities when they realize that they can take the thing that they're scared of and break it down, right, into smaller challenges and realize that it's a skill and they improve with practice.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you can learn that from either speech or math or screenwriting or even bartending, um, whatever that skill is that you learn, you know, you can apply that to so many other things.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't that really true on some level, I guess, of any type of discipline or any area of study, you learn the basics, you learn the the foundational principles of it, then you go further and further, and you can go as deep as you want into that field of study.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: But really those those things apply to every other discipline.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the idea of learning the basics and knowing that you're not a failure if you don't succeed in your first time.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's just part of the learning process.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I just love this whole concept and discussion of just learning and overcoming challenges and and knowing that the thing you're studying is not always just about the thing, it's about something else as well.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a large part of education, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Of going into college is simply learning how to learn all of these different things, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily that you're gonna use, you know, college algebra or statistics, or, you know, maybe even in a specific speech class, you might go into something where you never actually have to do that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the process of learning, of being able to learn something difficult like that or a new skill like that is something you'll take take with you forever.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you approach math differently in your books?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you take kind of a different pathway to teaching students about math or helping them to develop a different mindset than other types of approaches do?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that you know I found is there are a million math books out there, but all of the math books that are out there, they just have more math drills, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's more math practice.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I couldn't find that I really needed was something that taught students how to study math, sort of what we were talking about, just sort of how to approach learning a skill that is one that you're afraid of and a skill that you don't think that you can develop.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um so that that's actually the book that I wrote, my first book, Crash Math Now, doesn't have any math in it at all, but it it sort of breaks down the individual chapters into the things that I saw students struggling with.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a chapter on you know how to overcome procrastination and lack of motivation, another on overcoming um math anxiety and test anxiety, overcoming you know, grit and discipline when it comes to math, because so often we see students who they've got they've got incredible grit and discipline when it comes to other things, other, you know, whether it's sports or or art or writing, perhaps, but for some reason they they they really lack that and don't think they're capable of having that skill when it comes to math.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then other things just like um learning how to study effectively um and quickly, so that way math doesn't take up all of your time.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there are tons of different you know, test taking tips and hacks to help you know get the most points possible on tests, and it always drives me crazy when students don't don't use them and they lose these points that they totally should have on exams.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: See, that is so funny because in in my classes, I always tell students how to hack assignments.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like for those of you who are because I want them to think like an entrepreneur, you know, like I don't want you to think like uh like a lemming and do what everybody else does.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I lay out the syllabus and here's here's all the assignments, blah, blah, blah.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really want to make an A in this class, here's what you have to do.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I just tell them, you know, yeah, maybe the syllabus says that you'd only take late work up to a certain point.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if you come and talk to me and and you have a legit reason that you know, maybe I'll consider it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I probably shouldn't say that on a public podcast, but but that is the truth.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like think think proactively, you know, be assertive.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Go talk to the teacher because the teachers want to help you, but you know, ask not and you have not.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like like that, you know, that approach.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really fun.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it sounds like this, you know, your Crush Math Now book uh particularly, I mean, that is a great education book.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's not just a great math book, that's a great education book.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'd I would love at some point um I I hope that this gets a wider audience than just in the realm of math, because your principles of education and studying and just that whole approach to life is really, really fantastic.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was sort of one of the the best compliments that I've been getting on the book, is that it helps not just in math, but also in sort of any subject, because the students who read it can take it and apply it then to Spanish and physics and other classes as well.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you could really take those principles.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think 90% of your book, probably more, you could take that and apply it to people with writing because so many people feel exactly the same way about their writing and about writing a book or or doing any kind of writing.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I what if I failed before and what if I'm not good at it, and all those psychological things that get in the way of actually getting a book done?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it's definitely, definitely true.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many similarities to learning math and learning how to write.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And definitely, in fact, the whole process of learning how to write the book, because when I decided to do it, I hadn't, it had never really occurred to me before to write a book.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really, I had some screenwriting background, but nothing in terms of actually writing a full book.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more words in that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there's definitely a big learning curve on the first one.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you hit a lot of really tough spots, you know, when you're trying to figure out, well, how am I gonna write every day?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do you build that discipline to actually write every day?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, sort of work through the difficulties, you know, at the beginning, you're like, oh man, I maybe spent a couple hours writing that, but it was really bad.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to sort of trust in the fact that if you keep writing, you're gonna keep on getting better.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing with math when you're doing it, and you're like, I spent two hours and I just I feel like I didn't learn anything or I didn't make any progress, but you just still have to keep at it and keep going in order to get to the place that you want, you know, you're working through a lot of the same stuff.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously you like movies and storytelling, screenwriting, and that whole realm of things.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a question for you since you're you're the smartest math person that I know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: When you watch a movie, let's say like Goodwill Hunting or uh like a sci-fi movie, and they they have the obligatory scene where they go into a math class, go into a classroom, there's all the math formulas and stuff on the board.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever pause that, like on a Blu-ray, and look at that and and have some kind of a reaction to it?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if so, I'm curious what your reaction to all that is.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm trying to think.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know if I've done that so much.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know I've had lots of friends over the years who have done that for me, and they've been like, oh, there's this math equation here on this, you know, show.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it was sort of funny.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had a friend who was on a walk and she took a picture of a couple of twigs that happen to fall into the shape of a pie symbol.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's cool.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, oh, I saw this and I thought of you.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so no, I know that um, you know, friends always always think that I I don't know.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I when I watch movies, I tend to think more about the story structure of it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I definitely really appreciate good storytelling because I recognize just how difficult it is to do that.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think screenwriting is a lot like, I don't know, it's almost like seeing somebody who's who's maybe you know gone through calculus a really hard math class and suddenly can just sort of you know solve a complex problem really easily.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And on the surface, it looks so easy, but there's actually so many years of math that have gone into building the ability to do that.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the same thing with screenwriting too.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: You just, you know, you see the end product and it looks so simple to do, but there's so many different layers that are built into it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, actually I think maybe I get more distracted by by the story, actually, and um being fascinated by how how they build in the suspense and the little twists and turns and um you know how much you're drawn into the characters, stuff like that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit like like hieroglyphics to people like me who don't really know higher math.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I always kind of think, you know, they just got some intern or some some lighting grip to uh like research some formulas on the internet and just write them up on the chalkboard.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're probably not legit, but maybe they are.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have any idea.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the things that I know is fun, I think, you know, my husband um who loves physics, um, we know we watch the big bang theory a lot, and we found that I guess in the big bing theory, they actually um they work with, I think it's a physics professor over at UCLA um to come up with all of the stuff that they have on the boards for Big Bang Theory.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always fun for him because he's always like, oh yeah, I studied that in that class.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've looked at that one before.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's always funny.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into your actual book writing process a little bit.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because those who are listening, um they may not be working on math books, but they're working on their own books or they want to work on their own books.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: From top to bottom, can you talk about with your couple of books, how long did it take you to write each of those?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what was your process for once you wrote a draft of those, for then getting those onto Amazon, you know, as far as cover design, layout, editing, all those kinds of things.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's the nitty-gritty where a lot of people get hung up is okay, I have this book now, what do I do with it?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can kind of walk us through that process and what that was like, that would be awesome.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the the first uh with Crush Math Now, um, which you know, well, I guess I should start.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've written two books, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is Crush Math Now, and the second one was Raise Your Math Grade, and which is a very streamlined abbreviated version of Crush Math Now that I wrote for teachers to be able to share with their classes.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they both had really different processes because the first book, like I said, has a big learning curve when you're doing the very first one.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I took a month to just write, and I didn't know at that point what the book was that I was going to write.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I didn't even know for sure that I wanted to write a math book.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew that I was inspired to write something.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I made myself just write different things for a month, and I probably came up with a good 200 different book ideas during that time.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of that, I decided, you know, the one that made sense for me to write, given, you know, that I was a math professor and given my area of expertise was the math book, which didn't have a title at that point.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I just started writing every day, and I've got three little kids.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So my writing process was that I would just wake up in the morning at five before they woke up, and I would write from about five to seven every morning.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know how long the book would take.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't have, yeah, I guess I would say I didn't stick with the outline.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had a rough outline that I started with, but I just kept writing until I got to the end of it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I knew from screenwriting that the first draft is always really, really bad and that you're gonna go back and rewrite everything.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, and that helped me to really get through the first draft of it.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you are writing your very first book, I would say just keep on going and don't um keep polishing the stuff that you're writing in that very first draft because there's a good chance that you'll just end up cutting it and saying that you don't need it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Worry about polishing things later.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: When I after I did the first draft, and I don't remember, it might have taken four, four months or so, but again, I wasn't writing full time.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um then I redid my outline um at that point and started on the second draft of it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I signed up for a course on how to how to write a book because I knew at that point that there was a ton of stuff that I would need to learn in terms of you know publishing the book and launching the book and all of that sort of stuff.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I always think it's helpful to learn from somebody who's been through those things rather than just learn through trial and error.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can certainly do that, but it just takes a lot longer.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to think, and then I kept the same process.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I wrote, you know, every every morning from about five to seven.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I had a few weeks here and there where I would write a lot more.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'd fall behind on the writing schedule that I thought I was going to keep.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I would just schedule, you know, blocks of four hours here and there when I could to write.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: When I finally sent the book to an editor after the second draft, um, so I sent the book off to an editor, and that was the point where I ordered the book cover.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it was at that point that I realized that the book was real and that I was actually going to publish it.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't actually order the book cover ahead of time.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know lots of people recommend you know, order the book cover from the very beginning because that makes it real for you and that will inspire you to finish it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is great advice.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think I could have done that.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't necessarily have the confidence maybe to believe that I would finish the book.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I ordered the book cover, and then I did this the draft from the notes from the editor.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh, actually, you know, and I'll say on the first book, I think there's a learning curve too in terms of who you should hire.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to be your editor and stuff like that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I hired an the editor, and I think the very first one just sort of sent the book back into Galatomia and sent the book back and said, It's great.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a few like typos.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I really was shocked because I I was expecting it to be torn apart and to get a ton of feedback on it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I actually, you know, sent an email back and I said, you know, I was really looking for a lot more feedback.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she sent a few things, but um, in all honesty, it was it was not nearly as in-depth as what I wanted.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so um maybe just sort of keep that in mind, definitely maybe go through referrals rather than um people that you might just find online.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, I have found some incredible people through Upwork, and I actually do work with an editor through Upwork now, um, as well as a proofreader, but it does help to find a lot of those people, I think, through referrals.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because then you know a little bit more about what sort of feedback you'll get.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I ended up doing a second editor at that point because I did want more feedback than what I felt that I got.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I did the next draft and then I sort of just hit publish.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think because it that whole thing took a little bit longer than I thought that it would.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I didn't necessarily have as much time to learn about the whole launch process.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also knew sort of like the very first draft of your book is gonna be the worst.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think the very first launch of my book was the smallest and the biggest learning curve as well.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you learn so much from it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I think if there's one piece of advice is you know, even if your launch is is smaller, not as big as you think that it's gonna be, you learn so much from doing it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you do the next one, it gets better.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to doing the launch of my third book um hopefully this fall.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because gosh, I learned so much from those first two that I'm gonna implement in this next one.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's awesome.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're sharing all this, I'm typing.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Usually I have three takeaways at the end of an interview, you know, just to kind of summarize.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Here's three main learning points.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be hard to narrow down because I've already got five or six really, really good ones.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I cheated and share more than three.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But this is really good stuff, and I hope everybody has listened really carefully to what Allison is talking about.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's was totally my experience too with all these things.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: That yeah, your next one you're gonna look at it and go, you know, there's about a thousand things I could have fixed with this, but let's move on to the next one.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we were both in an honorary quarter's course, and man, I I love the fact that she that she emphasizes so much, just get your books out there and move on to the next one.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you know, don't tinker around with just one for 10 years.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just get those suckers out there.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, and the the trouble with doing that is that you know, unfortunately, as much as you can try to get everything perfect the first time through, there's no way to avoid mistakes.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm sure that people who have published 10 books still find that they make mistakes when they they publish their books or launch their books, but you learn so much from that very first book and the very first launch that it's worth it just to get it done as learn that as soon as you possibly can.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Lana, let me ask you as a reader, when you come across somebody's book that has a typo in it, how do you respond to that?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does that bother you emotionally, or do you think, oh, they could have done a better job editing?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you normally think about that in your own head?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Before before I publish my book or after?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, now, after having gone through the process of doing your own stuff, how do you and I have a reason for asking that, but I'm curious what your response is first.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it depends on the level of typos.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if there are just a couple in the book, then you know, I don't think twice about it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know that it's really easy to have have one or two typos, even if you go through an editor and then a proofreader.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I in fact, I think both of my books I know had one typo that I ended up going back in and fixing after it was published.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I don't think too much of that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, I've read a few books here and there where they were just super sloppy.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there were just there were typos and grammatical errors all over the place.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in all honesty, those books were also not as well written.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: There would be pages of just stuff that wasn't, you know, relevant or was very, you know, off topic or or not helpful and stuff.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think when you you combine lots of different errors together, you know, I think that's when I sort of you can't help but sort of judge a book because um it's waste because it's wasting your time, you know, it's maybe not necessarily the the$10 that you wasted to purchase it, but it's also like, you know, I I spent the money.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also was spending my time to try and and and read this book and learn from it.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and the author didn't necessarily care enough, you know, to to obviously do that one last proofread if there's that many typos in it, um, and you know, and fix it if it's that part of it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my approach too, really, with all this.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of empathy when I come across a typo here and there in a book, because I just think, especially if it's self-published, I just go, man, it's really hard to do this.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And people who have not gone through the process, they don't realize how how difficult it can be, especially your your first time going through it, because you just don't know a lot of things.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then, like you said, if there's you know lots and lots of things, or if the formatting is really bad or something, you kind of think, you know, they just didn't really try very hard.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: It will either that or they just didn't know any better.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if this is your response either, but or if this is your response as well.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes if I come across a book that is just really, really bad, and we've all seen those, you know, the formatting is horrible, maybe the writing isn't very good.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's still a part of me where I go, you know what, I respect the fact that they tried.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I truly do, because it is hard to write a book, and even if it's really bad, at least they put something out there that can always be corrected.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, oh that's yeah, the vast majority of people don't even do that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I always respect it on some level.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely true.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And can I just sort of add too if you're publishing your book through Amazon, you can go back and re-upload your file.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you find a mistake in it, you can you can go back and fix it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if that helps somebody, you know, overcome that fear of you know not wanting to publish something that is um imperfect, it's definitely, you know, worth doing and you can always fix it after the fact.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: That is a great point.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I did that with my last book just about three months ago.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I formatted the whole, reformatted the whole interior.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's so easy.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: You just literally go upload a new file, and less than a day later, they're like bing, your book is ready.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your your new version is ready.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's so cool.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, Allison, can you talk about the results of having your books out there?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: What have these books done for your business?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: What has it done for your own confidence and the awareness, your author platform, all those wonderful things that can come as a result of having books out there?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think the book created a platform for me.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really have one before.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was just a math professor.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I had never really reached out to other people to talk about, you know, my ideas for teaching and helping students with math or helping parents with math.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the book definitely created a platform and then sort of inspired me to think about other ways that I can help people who are outside of my classroom.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, since then I've, you know, I wrote the second book, which is um, it's actually an open educational resource that um teachers can share with their classes because I wanted to have an option that um teachers could utilize without having to, you know, jump through all of the different hoops to get funding for things.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, I love that second book that I've written.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's super short.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Raise Your Math Grade.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I like that because that's something that teachers can use to help their students.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've created a website since then um called Allison Loves Math.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that URL, by the way.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just really fun.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I like it because I wasn't quite sure what within math I maybe wanted to focus on.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I because I love so many different areas of math and so many different things about math, you know, right, including this fact that math is a journey that teaches you how to overcome challenges.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so that sort of kept it nice in general and giving me the flexibility to do different things within math.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, recently I've started doing Facebook lives that I'm recording to create a podcast.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully later this summer um I will launch my first season of the Alice in Loves Math podcast.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and all of that stemmed from the book.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: None of that would have, you know, it never would have occurred to me to do that, but I think I've I've started to meet so many interesting people that have so many, you know, interesting things to share that can help people with math.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I've also started creating, you know, I created a membership for parents called Raise a Math Person that helps parents, you know, parent in a way that makes math easier and less stressful and helps set their kids up for success in math.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't have come about if it weren't for the book.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually creating a couple of courses this summer that are coming up in August.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one is called Homeschool Made Easy-Ish, which is a homeschool setup for parents, you know, whose worst nightmare is homeschooling.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really in response to um all of the online learning that you know we may be forced into this fall.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and knowing that I have the ability to help parents through that, even though you know I haven't homeschooled before, you know, or prior to this last spring, but you know, I've learned so much about how to how to help parents through difficult situations.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and weirdly enough, all of it, all of it started with with the book.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's fantastic.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is so great.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: You put one thing out there in the world, and so many cool things can come from doing a book.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is true.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You it's scary putting yourself out there the first time, but then once you do that, it gives you a little more courage.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then you put yourself out there one more time, and that gives you a little bit more courage to do that.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it it builds.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if people want to find out more about your work, about your books and all the cool stuff that you're doing, which there's a lot of really cool things that you're doing.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's awesome.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Should they just go to Allisonlovesamath.com or are there some other places where they can find your work as well?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's the best place.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you can sign up for my email list there, and you can get the free copy of my second book, Raise Your Math Grade, um, along with that, as well as I have a little parenting mini course.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's just via email that's for free that comes with that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the seven secrets that parents of successful math students know.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um, on my email list, everyone gets like a 50% discount on all of the um courses and memberships and stuff like that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the best place to find me by far.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're doing a great job with all this.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: The membership site, you know, the email course, the books.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're really doing a fantastic job.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fact that you are you come from the education world and you've taken action and started doing all this.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: That that's an area that's very close to my heart is educators who know a lot of stuff.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: They have all this knowledge and wisdom that is just like waiting to be funneled into some things that can actually help to increase their income and increase their exposure and everything.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that you well know, the higher education world is a crazy place to be these days.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So so I would if there's any teachers or professors listening, man, get your stuff out there, don't wait, get it out there and but start making some extra income because it can really help for sure.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think that's that's great advice for professors and and teachers at all levels, actually.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many people that that don't know what you know who can can benefit so much from it.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's this the extra side income, which is an educator, is amazing.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also the ability to help people who are beyond your own classroom.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of teachers right now in the midst of this whole pandemic situation, they're rethinking whether they want to be in the education system.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm really specifically talking about public school teachers, you know, K through 12, because that they're dealing with some crazy situations.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in the I'm in a college setting, which is the same dynamics, but it's you know, I don't think it's nearly as crazy as public school can be.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, good stuff.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Allison, thanks so much for doing this uh conversation.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a blast.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: You have helped me to be excited for math.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I need to learn some more math.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll go back to school and take some classes on that.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks again so much.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate your time today.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I definitely enjoyed that conversation.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a ton, and man, I feel inspired to get busy on my own next book.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Here are my three biggest takeaways from the conversation.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, takeaway number one, it's a quote that Allison gave us in this interview.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: She said, I just kept writing till I got to the end of it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that has got to be one of the best quotes that any guest has shared on this podcast, period.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just absolutely love that because it just summarizes how you actually get a draft of a book done.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so many times as writers, we make writing this big emotional thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And all of our self-confidence and our self-esteem and our sense of self-security is so is all wrapped up in our books because we think that a book is basically like our own creative expression.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And while that's that's certainly true to a degree, there's very much a sense of just being a workman when it comes to writing a book.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: It means that you take it seriously.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: It means that you get down and you're not that you get down, it means that you sit down and you keep writing until you get to the end of it.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So just get the words down in that first draft.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not supposed to be good in your first draft.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's called a first draft.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the final thing.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can worry about polishing your book and your writing later.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just get it down, even if it's really messy and sloppy and ugly.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't edit what you haven't written.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got if you've got something there, it might be messy, but at least you can work with it if you've got something there.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So just keep writing till you get to the end of it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Takeaway number two, math is not just about math.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this especially applies for students because when students think that they are not math people, whenever they have always perceived themselves as being bad at math, then when they learn math and they can overcome some challenges and advance to higher levels in math, that sense of confidence and that sense of being able to tackle something difficult that applies to every other area in their lives.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I love Allison's approach that, you know, it's it's not just about the math.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: The math also represents just meeting challenges head-on and facing things that are difficult and learning to struggle with them and learning to overcome those things.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a really awesome approach.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Then finally, takeaway number three: a book can create your platform.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Allison mentioned several things that happened when she put her books out into the world.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And now she has a very cool membership site that she's launched based on those math books.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: A book can be the basis for a lot of other things, a lot of different income streams.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it really can be be the hub of a whole ecosystem of different products and services.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So take the cue from Allison and put that book out there into the world and then start to develop some other income streams from that.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been a blast.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I really loved uh doing this interview.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was something kind of different, but man, I learned a lot.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um hopefully this inspires you to learn a little bit more math.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I know it certainly has for me.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want to give a huge thank you to my guest, Allison Dillard.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure to check out her site at Allisonlovesmath.com.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as always, thank you so much for listening.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you spending time listening to the show.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can find lots more resources for writers at KentSanders.net.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you in the next episode.