Latest / The Curve / If he buys you a lab-grown ring, does he still love you?

Transcript

If he buys you a lab-grown ring, does he still love you? · The Curve

0:00
If he buys you Labgron, he loves you less.
0:02
Like, it's as simple as that.
0:03
85% of people said they would consider and be fine with Labgron jewellery.
0:07
But when it came to the engagement ring, it was only 64% that said that they were happy with Labgron.
0:12
If everyone is assuming something massive is Labgron...
0:16
I always thought that the thing that made a diamond really valuable was the size of it, that's the carrot.
0:20
But actually the most important thing is the cut, and the most expensive diamond is the round, brilliant cut.
0:27
We've gotta talk about the De Beers diamond thing, please.
0:29
They basically were mining, and they started to find a whole lot of diamonds.
0:33
No one wants a clear stone.
0:34
People want rubies, they want sapphires.
0:36
We're gonna use marketing in the most amazing way possible and say people who know real love give their partners diamond engagement rings.
0:44
They limited the supply,
0:45
So it became like a hype product.
0:47
The exclusivity of a diamond is the thing that made it really valuable.
0:50
Would you sleep better every night knowing that your ring cost 20,000 pounds and was natural?
0:55
This is gonna make me sound like such an idiot, but I'm just gonna share it because I think it's important to be honest.
1:03
Thank you so much to Michael Hill for making this Raising the Curb episode possible.
1:07
The jewellery that you love the most should feel unmistakably yours.
1:11
With Michael Hill bespoke, it can.
1:13
You can choose the details from the stone, the metal, the perfect size and fit.
1:18
It can be all designed by you and crafted by Michael Hill.
1:21
Have a look at michaelhill.co.nz.
1:24
Also, quick note for anyone wondering who follows our social media very closely and is thinking, hold on a second, this girl is talking as though she's not engaged.
1:32
The reason for that is that I recorded this episode with Fran literally the day before I went on my holiday and got engaged.
1:39
So if you're wondering what's going on here, something feels a bit off.
1:43
It's because we record these episodes a week or two before they go out.
1:46
And when we recorded, I promise I was not engaged.
1:50
I've been looking forward to this conversation for an embarrassingly long time.
1:53
Today, we're talking about lab-grown versus natural diamonds as an investment, but also just a broader conversation because there's been such huge cultural shifts in the last five years with lab-grown diamonds becoming increasingly normalized.
2:08
And when I was thinking about who I wanted to get on for this episode, I thought, who better than someone who...
2:15
who is very considered, measured in an intuitive, feminine way when it comes to what you buy, what you invest in.
2:23
So we've got Brian in studio again, which I'm just like, God, lucky us.
2:28
Three times?
2:28
Third time lucky.
2:29
I know.
2:30
It's amazing.
2:31
Are you getting sick of us?
2:32
Not in the slightest.
2:34
I woke up like a child on Christmas this morning.
2:36
Yeah.
2:37
Let me tell you, I never wake up at 6am for anything.
2:40
I wake up at 6am for you.
2:42
Oh, I love that.
2:43
This is such an interesting topic to me.
2:45
And thanks for saying all these nice things about me, but I feel so like conflicted about this.
2:49
And I feel like I've jumped between what I think so many times.
2:52
I actually don't have a strong, strong opinion on this, even though my intuitive, intentional spending Martha self is.
3:01
should say, who cares if it's natural or lab grown?
3:04
If you like what it looks like and it brings you joy, go for it.
3:08
So we first had a conversation about this off mic a couple of months ago, and we were talking about engagement rings.
3:15
So obviously this conversation is not just about engagement rings.
3:18
We're talking about jewelry and diamonds way more broadly, but we were talking about engagement rings.
3:24
And well, I mean, we had the exact same opinion where all
3:27
we were sort of quietly saying to each other in like hushed voices how we would want natural diamonds across the board because it feels more real.
3:38
It feels like particularly with relation to engagement rings.
3:41
Yeah, we were like, if he buys you a lab girl and he loves you less.
3:44
Like it's as simple as that.
3:46
Which is insane.
3:48
Insane.
3:48
Insane.
3:51
It's so funny because we've done a lot of research and looked at various different opinions on this as we prepared for this episode.
3:58
I have yo-yoed from natural to lab for months.
4:03
I actually don't know where I'm going to land at the end of this episode, but why don't we start with looking back at the history of diamonds, where they've come from, the
4:21
really were created by the earth over literally billions of years, like not millions, not thousands, billions.
4:29
And they were extracted from the earth in the same way that other natural resources are.
4:34
Now lab, via the definition, are grown and manufactured.
4:39
So they're not quote unquote natural, but they are essentially the same chemically and physically.
4:51
slightly different from an end product standpoint.
4:54
Same.
4:55
I thought like I kind of put them in the same bracket as like a cubic zirconia or like moistenite.
5:01
I was like to the naked eye, an untrained eye, it looks like a diamond.
5:03
But if you'd go through like looking at the durability, you know, like the facets, the light, et cetera, et cetera, you would know very clearly that it's not.
5:11
But what I'm understanding from our research now is that like, it's literally just the process that makes it different.
5:17
The end product is perfect.
5:19
basically identical, which is a different mindset to me now to what I thought about it before.
5:24
Yes.
5:25
Because I think when it comes to the durability, wearability of a diamond, the whole point of it is like, yes, it's been almost grown by the earth, but it also has so much longevity in... Yeah.
5:38
So you can pass it down proper heirloom stuff.
5:40
Yes.
5:41
So you could wear it and knock it against something and it's not just going to break or...
5:46
I mean, I don't think it's going to be.
5:47
There's the whole point, right?
5:48
A diamond is a 10 on the scale of hardness.
5:52
Some stones, like a tanzanite, for instance, and I think rubies and stuff, are a softer stone.
5:56
So you want to be careful in terms of if you knocked a softer stone, you would get scratches and stuff.
6:03
But a diamond is the hardest stone.
6:05
And I think they use diamonds to cut things sometimes because they're so, so hardy that the other, whatever you're trying to cut will break before a diamond would break.
6:15
Oh.
6:15
That's kind of cool.
6:16
And I do love the idea of that because the point of – and particularly when it comes to an engagement ring, the point of it is I'm going to love you forever.
6:25
Yeah.
6:25
And in the same way that a diamond will last forever because it's so durable –
6:30
And it's also kind of romantic to think that it's been like Mother Earth has been like creating this thing for billions of years.
6:35
Like there's something really romantic about that.
6:37
It's so beautiful.
6:38
Yeah.
6:38
Imagine being someone that found a diamond without knowing what it was and coming across it in a miner in the earth.
6:45
My mom has a diamond in a ring that my, her great grandfather found in the Kimberley Mines.
6:51
You're joking.
6:52
Yeah.
6:53
Stunning.
6:53
Was he looking for it or he just happened to – He was working in the mines, yeah.
6:57
Wow.
6:58
So, Fran, I would love to talk about this idea of the process that it takes to create a natural diamond versus a lab-grown diamond.
7:10
I saw a quote, and I cannot for the life of me remember who came up with this, but they were comparing the idea of –
7:17
IVF babies are babies just as much as a natural diamond or a lab-grown diamond is the same end product.
7:24
It's just the process it takes to become the end thing, which sounds so weird when you're talking in the context of humans and babies.
7:33
But someone that is conceived by IVF is no less of a baby or a human than one conceived naturally –
7:41
I know you've done a bit of digging around the process and comparing it with other products.
7:45
Can we talk about that?
7:46
Because I do think that it's a fascinating piece.
7:50
And actually, for me, I think one of the things that makes me think about it differently.
7:55
When you said that IVF thing to me a while ago, it was such a light bulb moment.
7:59
Because I was suddenly like, yeah, of course, I never would think of a child.
8:04
The process was different,
8:11
have the same kind of thing where process may differ, but the end product is the same, where we don't differentiate between lab or natural.
8:19
And I found pearls.
8:21
So cultured pearls are not naturally occurring pearls.
8:24
They're man-made versus wild pearls.
8:27
But we don't really talk about them in different ways.
8:29
I have always thought of a cultured pearl as this glamorous, gorgeous thing.
8:33
I've never thought, oh, it's man-made.
8:34
It's less than.
8:35
Yeah.
8:35
What is culture?
8:36
They've got these pearl farms where they create these pearls, whereas a natural pearl comes from an oyster.
8:42
Oh, yes.
8:43
Yeah.
8:43
I get served so much of that on Instagram.
8:45
And people are finding them and then squeezing them out.
8:47
I think that's not real.
8:48
Oh, no.
8:49
I don't know.
8:49
I don't think so.
8:50
Do you think it's AI?
8:51
Yeah.
8:51
Devastating.
8:52
But there's some other stones that are also –
8:56
quite popular in the man-made space, but we never really differentiate between a natural and a mined version.
9:02
And that's emeralds and rubies.
9:05
So I didn't know this at all, but apparently those are both stones that have a very big...
9:11
There's a big lab industry for it.
9:12
Yes.
9:13
But we don't think like, oh, that's a mined ruby.
9:16
Oh, that's a lab ruby.
9:17
We just kind of talk about rubies and emeralds in like one bucket.
9:20
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of interesting.
9:21
Also, there's so many things that have been commoditized.
9:26
I know.
9:27
Think about puppies.
9:28
People breed dogs for the purpose of having more puppies to then sell.
9:33
And we actually, for things like that, a lot of people put the idea of a manufactured puppy or like the perfect pedigree above puppies.
9:43
you know a dog that was conceived because i don't know if dogs fall in love but you know it's like but but people pay so much more for specific uh breeds that have been kind of tampered with or manufactured yeah it's like gmo is that the word
9:59
Not GMO.
10:00
Yeah.
10:00
Is that when you like modify something to make it perfect?
10:03
Yeah.
10:03
And think about vegetables.
10:05
You know, if you go and get organic vegetables, you can get some pretty ugly, weird looking veggies.
10:10
We put on a pedestal beautiful looking, perfect, big vegetables that have been tampered with by humans.
10:18
Exactly.
10:18
So, okay.
10:19
Have you actually, let's save this to the very end.
10:22
I was going to say, what kind of diamond would you like?
10:24
But more zoomed out, have you thought about, whether it's as an engagement ring or other diamonds, do you look at the different, because you know how there's the four, cut, clarity, what are the other two?
10:35
Cut, clarity, carrot.
10:37
Yeah.
10:38
And color, which also can make a diamond more or less valuable.
10:42
Yes, I've got some interesting insights into this.
10:45
Oh, okay, okay, okay.
10:45
Okay, so I initially thought that the most important thing about a diamond was, and by the way, those four C's relate to lab and natural.
10:55
So they can grade a natural diamond, a lab-grown diamond, just as they grade a natural diamond, which I thought was so interesting.
11:02
They use the same certifications like the GIA and all these different things to grade these diamonds.
11:08
But I always thought that the thing that made a diamond really valuable was the size of it.
11:11
So that's the carrot, right?
11:12
But actually, the most important thing is the cut.
11:16
And the most expensive diamond is the round, brilliant cut.
11:19
So that is the solitaire, round diamond.
11:22
And the reason why that is so expensive is because the raw material that you lose, because of all the different facets that you create when you're cutting it, is that you basically get much less of...
11:33
the end product than you would have started with.
11:35
So when you buy the raw material, you have to buy a lot more to get a lot less out because of all the facets you're cutting in it, which I thought was so interesting.
11:42
Yeah, that is really fascinating.
11:43
But so that one looks, it's called round brilliant.
11:45
The word brilliant means that it's very shiny and very like kind of-
11:48
It's got the wow factor.
11:50
The refraction light thing is amazing.
11:53
Then the other thing I found out, which was super interesting, that's called a new cut or a fancy cut.
11:59
The old types of diamonds were cut by hand, of course.
12:03
And then you've got something called an old mind diamond, which is what Taylor Swift has.
12:07
Oh, my God.
12:08
That's hilarious that we both love that.
12:09
So I did some research on that.
12:10
And how gorgeous is this?
12:12
Old mine diamonds are less sparkly than a brilliant diamond because the way that they cut them is by candlelight.
12:19
So they cut them by candlelight so that the type of glow that it has is like a warm, warm, like romantic glow rather than like a brilliant bright, which I just think sounds so divine.
12:29
I do love a glow of a candle, you know, like the warm, glowy, golden light.
12:35
Yeah.
12:35
But then the other thing I want to tell you is that, so round brilliant is the most expensive cut you can get.
12:40
It's almost like a cookie cutter.
12:41
Like if you think about the amount of, like if you were cutting a gingerbread man, you would need more gingerbread man than a round stamp you're using.
12:49
Yeah, it's like very intricate.
12:50
Yeah.
12:51
And then the other, so you've got your round brilliant.
12:53
Then you've got the fancy cuts, which are one step down from that.
12:57
And that would be a pear shape.
12:59
So, you know, a pear shape.
13:00
Yes.
13:01
A marquee's diamond, which is kind of like pointy at the top and the bottom.
13:05
So it's kind of that shape.
13:06
And then the cheapest one, which funnily enough is the style that I like the best, is the emerald cut.
13:12
Yes.
13:12
So that's quite art deco and that's like become quite fashionable again.
13:16
But it's cool because it's got like a nod to like an antique style like Art Deco at times.
13:21
But that's actually the most reasonable one because I think it has the fewest cuts in it.
13:27
You buy the raw material and you lose less of it because you've got fewer cuts.
13:30
Got it.
13:30
Yes, yes, yes.
13:31
But have you ever tried on any diamonds, like real diamonds, whether it's a ring, necklace, whatever?
13:37
Yes.
13:37
It was –
13:38
It's so weird to me.
13:40
Do you know what it felt like?
13:42
When I first started learning about the stock market or property and there's all this lingo and all this jargon that you just do not know until you've deep dived in the research.
13:51
I remember someone being like, oh, this is a brilliant cut.
13:54
This is a cushion cut.
13:55
And I was like –
13:57
Does all this mean?
13:58
Like it was really overwhelming.
13:59
Have you decided based on what you like the look of or have you decided what you like based on the price?
14:07
Okay, such a good question.
14:09
So I think I almost feel like –
14:12
Back in the day before, and we haven't really spoken about this yet, but because of lab-grown diamonds flooding the market, natural diamonds are losing value.
14:22
And I think in the beginning when people would buy diamonds, you would kind of placate yourself in saying like, okay, I'm paying a high price for this, but it's an investment.
14:30
It was almost like a way to soothe yourself about how much you're spending for this tiny thing.
14:34
I now, because of the way that things have moved in terms of supply and demand and that the fact that there's this like flood of diamond type products in the market means the price has gone down.
14:46
I'm now very much about like, what does it look like and how do I feel when I'm wearing that thing?
14:51
I'm not thinking at all about price or about it being an investment or resale value because, frankly, everything I buy that is aesthetic is not something I'm buying because I'm planning to resell it at any point.
15:05
Like, I do not understand the people who buy Birkins and then resell them.
15:08
It doesn't make sense to me.
15:10
I'm buying a piece of jewelry because it speaks to my soul in some way and I'm not
15:15
I would like to pass it down to people in my family or wear it on special occasions, but I'm never thinking, oh, I wonder how much this is going to be worth in 10 years because that's when I'm going to ship it off.
15:25
What do you think?
15:26
Well, yeah.
15:27
So I think there's something really beautiful in the same way that a natural diamond has been created by the earth.
15:33
I think there's something so amazing about heirloom jewelry, passing things down.
15:37
Like, you know, Vic, for example, has all her jewels and all her rings are from her grandmother.
15:43
So gorgeous.
15:44
And, you know, the idea that they have been worn by generations and they're now on her fingers, I think, so beautiful.
15:50
That is not beautiful because necessarily they're natural diamonds, which, of course, they would be because they were from, you know, years ago.
15:57
I agree.
15:59
But the idea that something that I wore for my life that was meaningful for me, whether it's a necklace, a bracelet, a ring, earrings that were worn by somebody in my family that I love and that they love, like that to me is really beautiful.
16:13
But I've had this weird block for the last couple of months while we've been thinking about this episode and talking about it and.
16:21
I still feel conflicted about the idea because I do still think of jewelry as an investment.
16:26
And I think that that's because it's a lot of money to spend on something that I'm wearing every day.
16:31
And I don't know if this comes down to the self-esteem thing.
16:34
But if I think about what I want to spend money on, generally, I like investing in things that hold their value.
16:43
And I never would spend $5,000 on a piece of jewelry for myself unless I had enough money to.
16:49
I would love to one day.
16:51
But where I am financially, spending that much on something –
16:57
To me, I feel like I need to justify it to myself as an investment.
17:00
Yes, I think there's so much about it.
17:03
It's that you're justifying it rather than just being like, I really love this thing.
17:08
I don't know if you've had this feeling before, but I feel this way about art.
17:12
I've bought two pieces of expensive art in my life
17:15
And I feel the same way about jewelry is I'm so sensible when it comes to buying clothing.
17:20
I'm very intentional when it comes to those kind of things.
17:22
But when I see something and I feel moved by it, all spending, like sensible spending goes out the window.
17:29
So I like when I bought a piece of art recently that like literally when I walk past it in my house, I get butterflies because I'm just so blown away by how beautiful it is.
17:38
It was flipping expensive, but I don't care.
17:40
And I'm never going to resell this thing.
17:42
Like that thing is like part of me.
17:44
I feel like it's a sole investment rather than some, like a sole connection with something rather than something that I'm buying now with one eye on like the market of where it's going to be, how it's going to be valuable.
17:55
But I do want these things to be durable, which is why usually I would think that you'd pay more money because you'd want it to last longer.
18:01
But now that's not the case, right?
18:02
Because a lab-grown diamond will last just as long as a natural.
18:06
It's almost like you're investing in the enjoyment of what you will get from, whether it's a piece of jewelry or a piece of art or whatever, than necessarily thinking of it in an investment in the same way we do with other asset classes where you're buying it because you want to see it increase in value or hold its value.
18:21
Totally.
18:22
It's an emotional purchase for me.
18:24
Yes.
18:25
We've got to talk about the De Beers diamond thing, please.
18:27
Let's go back to the beginning because this blew my mind.
18:30
Yes.
18:30
Do you want to explain it?
18:31
No, I think you should.
18:32
The excitement in your face and voice means that this is one you should take away from.
18:35
Okay.
18:36
Guys, let me take you back to the 1940s, okay?
18:39
So De Beers is a company where they basically were mining for other materials and they started to find a whole lot of diamonds, okay?
18:48
Which don't look like diamonds like we expect them to look like now.
18:51
They come kind of opaque and they kind of are just like a kind of block of coal.
18:55
But within that, when you do all the processes around them, they turn into a diamond that you can then sculpt and facet to get the color and the clarity and the brightness of them.
19:06
So they thought, okay, we've got all these, we've got a huge glut of this product.
19:10
What are we going to do with them?
19:11
Okay.
19:11
No one wants what they used to call it then was a clear stone.
19:14
No one wants a clear stone.
19:15
People want rubies.
19:16
They want sapphires.
19:17
They want emeralds.
19:18
What are we going to do?
19:19
Okay.
19:19
Someone extremely smart who I hope got knighted or whatever said, you know what we're going to do?
19:24
We're going to turn a marketing cam.
19:26
We're going to use marketing in the most amazing way possible and say, okay.
19:30
to people that people who know real love give their partners diamond engagement rings.
19:37
Okay.
19:37
So they went after, they pulled at the heartstrings of men and women and said that a diamond is forever, which is true because we know it's number 10 on the like hardness scale of jewelry, of, of what do you call them?
19:49
Stones.
19:49
Yeah.
19:50
So they went and made this whole marketing campaign.
19:53
They said like diamonds are for engagement and diamonds,
19:56
It went so viral, I guess, in those days that it became like the gold standard.
20:00
They also spoke about that a man needed to spend at least three months of his salary on a diamond ring, which in those days was probably a lot less.
20:10
But nowadays, when you think about that, that seems like an extreme amount of money to spend on one piece of jewelry.
20:15
And then the other clever thing they did was they limited supply.
20:18
So they had access to all the diamond mines in the world.
20:23
And they gave specific site holders access to those diamonds.
20:27
But the reality was there were actually a ton of diamonds.
20:30
But what they did was they limited the supply.
20:32
So it became like a hype product.
20:33
And it was like the exclusivity of a diamond is the thing that made it really valuable.
20:38
But what's so funny about this is it's just like a manufactured thing that they've created.
20:42
So now what's happened, because lab-grown diamonds never did that thing where they created like a supply limit.
20:49
They kind of are just like you can print a new one whenever you want.
20:52
It's lost that shine of exclusivity, which means that the price has dropped.
20:56
But it's all just a mental, like how we see things rather than like actually a limited resource.
21:02
It's not a limited resource.
21:03
I mean, honestly, the marketing, whoever was the marketing genius behind that, I agree.
21:12
It is insane to think that that has had impact on how we perceive someone showing love is by how much they spend and what they buy.
21:23
Completely.
21:24
And the whole point of this conversation is we are still trying to unravel that.
21:28
Yes.
21:29
And I'm like so aware of marketing and I fight against it all the time.
21:35
And it's so funny that for me, I still struggle to unravel that because I think I'm the least susceptible to marketing.
21:42
And wow, boy, have they got me.
21:43
Yeah, me too.
21:44
Up until probably a week ago.
21:46
Do you think that
21:47
The amount someone spent on a ring because I still fully was on board with the same thing.
21:54
And I also equate the amount someone, which I don't now, but I, again, it's one of those things I have to really unwind.
22:01
How much someone spends on a ring shows me.
22:04
their love for me which is I know insane and it's so weird that that is still kind of in the cultural narrative I also had that mindset for a while but I actually think that now it's like because diamonds when when something that was a luxurious resource becomes available to everybody it becomes like luxurious to nobody and that's kind of like
22:27
could be said for diamonds like there's something really chic about having a ring that has no diamonds in it or something that is kind of off kilter with what a traditional engagement ring looks like because i do think the idea of engagement or diamonds is not too dissimilar to valentine's day and the way that it's been marketed as by flowers to show your love for somebody yeah but
22:53
Even with Valentine's Day, I was in New Zealand in February and my boyfriend sent me flowers and I knew that he hated every second of it because he was like, I hate that I'm buying into this.
23:03
Yeah.
23:04
But also you're on the other side of the world.
23:05
I'm going to send you flowers.
23:06
Cute.
23:06
And it actually made my day.
23:07
And I was like, this is so cute and sweet.
23:10
But I also hate the idea of falling into the trap of feeling like I expect that because flowers on Valentine's Day means love.
23:19
Because it's not true.
23:20
Love is shown in the way someone treats you in the everyday.
23:24
But in the same way then, yeah, I don't know.
23:26
I just – I find it's – they're so inextricably linked for me and I don't like it.
23:31
I've got a question for you.
23:32
Is one of your love languages gifts?
23:34
Yeah.
23:35
I didn't think so, but I will say when I was given a watch for my birthday not that long ago, I love it.
23:41
Yeah.
23:42
I think it's not top on my love language list at all, but I would be lying if I said someone gives me something and I don't really value it.
23:50
Small or it doesn't actually matter what's been spent on it.
23:53
Yeah, I think I'm trying to unravel for myself.
23:56
Like, is it about the – because you know how, like, girls love to dine out on the fact that their boyfriend or fiancé designed the ring for them?
24:03
Do they?
24:03
I just think that men, they love to tell you that their partner designed it.
24:07
And I'm like, well, he's not a designer.
24:09
So like, I'm not that impressed by that.
24:11
Did you know what I mean?
24:13
Like, I don't really understand why people love it too much, but I wonder if it's actually about the, then it's not actually about the physical thing.
24:19
It's about the fact that he took the time to think about what you would like and then put that together.
24:24
And it's not something that is his natural skillset, but he's decided to put the time and effort in.
24:28
So the love language for that person is,
24:31
is acts of service exactly over the physical what it looks like at the end yeah I just I think there's something to be said for if you don't mind me talking about your watch for a second yes yes which I unfortunately I'm not wearing because I need to put another link in my arm looks like a you love sausage in a casing too tight right now so I've taken it off you love the fact that your partner
24:54
looked up vintage Japanese watches, went through a whole lot of different ones, then found a supplier, went to that supplier, spoke to him, found the exact watch that he thought that you would love.
25:04
Does that mean more to you, price aside, than if, because the shape of the watch is pretty similar to a Cartier tank, okay, which I absolutely love.
25:11
I think it's classic and gorgeous.
25:13
Than him walking into the Sloan Square Cartier shop on his way to get a coffee and just quickly walking and be like, oh yeah, sorry, I'll have one of those Cartier tanks.
25:20
Great, thanks.
25:20
Doesn't give it another thought.
25:21
Does it make a difference to you?
25:24
God, this is a hard question.
25:25
It's a really hard question because I love my watch.
25:29
I love the way that he chose it.
25:31
Exactly.
25:31
I think it's really beautiful.
25:33
But I also think there's something incredibly romantic about somebody spending money on you.
25:40
And I really hate to say that out loud.
25:42
No, I love that you say that.
25:43
Because it's, and I mean in the context of perhaps going out for dinner.
25:48
Or it doesn't have to be a lot of money.
25:50
But I find it really attractive when someone uses their resource on you.
25:54
Agree, agree.
25:55
So it's not necessarily the idea that...
25:59
I want someone to be constantly spoiling me, but I do find it attractive when someone is generous as a quality.
26:05
Absolutely agree with you there.
26:06
100%.
26:07
So I don't think for me, if it was one or the other, I would find it any more of a act of love and I would value both.
26:16
But,
26:17
Oh, it's a hard question.
26:18
What do you think?
26:19
I think I would much prefer your story, the vintage watch going to the supplier, him giving it thought and time.
26:26
What I found quite funny is yesterday I was looking online at engagement rings at some of the brand names like Cartier and Tiffany.
26:33
And you can literally go onto their website and just like add to cart an engagement ring.
26:37
And I found that so strange because it feels like it should be such a romantic, thoughtful time where you aren't just like, oh, I've got to do my waitrose order.
26:45
And then I've got to get an engagement ring.
26:47
Click, click, click.
26:47
Off I go.
26:47
I've got this ring.
26:48
Yes.
26:49
I like that it's a considered purchase rather than something you just throw in the cart.
26:54
Yes.
26:54
And I think that that's really interesting because rings now that are being made independently, so what you're talking about when someone's like flashing around the fact their partner designed something has gone up to 88% of engagement rings.
27:06
So basically nine out of 10 engagement rings bought in 2025 were either custom edit rings or full custom design.
27:15
And now you can on some sites kind of have a design experience where you, you pick the band, you pick the diamond, you pick the diamond size, you pick the clarity.
27:25
You can do all of it.
27:26
You can also like build it rather than having something off the shelf, or you can go to a designer, which I think is really cool because it's like supporting craftsmanship.
27:33
And it is quite an, like everyone who I've spoken to who's gone through the design process, even guys who like aren't into that kind of thing have said it was actually like a really beautiful process.
27:43
It's also time consuming.
27:44
So someone putting that much time in rather than click and buy I think is quite a big deal.
27:47
But also perhaps the value is because lab-grown diamonds are less valuable, as in they don't have the same on-sell, maybe the value now is in something bespoke and different and the time that someone's put into choosing something opposed to the money spent.
28:03
I love that perspective.
28:04
The perception is – it's actually not so much about the materials that are used.
28:09
It's creating something that feels unique.
28:13
That has its own story because your partner did it or whatever.
28:16
Within the space that is so, dare I say it, contrived by a marketing campaign –
28:22
So true.
28:23
The beauty and the love and the investment is actually in creating something that's special to the person that you're creating it for.
28:29
Completely.
28:30
What was quite interesting I found, so I did a poll on my stories about what people's opinion was on Lab vs.
28:37
Mind.
28:37
Interestingly, quite a few girls said Lab all the way, except if it's my engagement ring.
28:42
So people still have this perception that they love Lab for everything else.
28:46
But for some reason, and it goes back to the De Beers marketing campaign.
28:50
It's like, if he loves you, he will get you a natural diamond.
28:53
We did the same in like a quiz, basically, with the Curve audience.
28:57
And 85% of people said they were...
29:00
consider and be fine with lab grown jewelry.
29:02
But when it came to the engagement ring, it was only 64% that said that they were happy with lab grown versus 36% of women who said they would still prefer a natural diamond for specifically the engagement ring.
29:14
I didn't go back to these girls and say, why?
29:17
And I don't even know the answer.
29:19
Why?
29:20
But there's, for some reason, we love the romance that has been created around a natural diamond.
29:26
But I also think it's actually about the amount of money someone's spending.
29:30
I could be totally wrong.
29:31
Do you?
29:31
But I really do think, yeah.
29:34
And we asked our community as well, like, do you consider the engagement ring cost?
29:38
Like, would you split it with them?
29:41
How do you feel about it?
29:42
the amount they spend, does it equate how much they love you?
29:44
And I thought the stuff that came back from this was really interesting.
29:47
So our audience said that 56% of them would consider splitting the cost of an engagement ring, which I thought was so interesting.
29:54
I actually would love to play a clip from a podcast I listened to recently where the woman is basically talking about why she thinks we should not be opting to split the engagement ring.
30:06
One of my controversial opinions is one of my friends said that she split her engagement ring with her fiancé, split the cost.
30:12
And I was like, guys, this is not what feminism wanted from us.
30:16
There's huge inequalities, the gender pay gap, the gender pension gap.
30:20
This man expects you to birth his children.
30:22
Do you understand the unpaid labour that goes into birthing someone's child?
30:25
Yeah.
30:26
Nine months carrying his spawn and you've split your engagement ring.
30:31
I just cannot get behind that at all.
30:32
I think there's equity and there's equality.
30:35
Yeah.
30:35
And that's equity.
30:36
That's not equality.
30:38
We have to acknowledge the inequalities that do exist and not present that 50-50 is equal.
30:46
I actually really agree with what she's saying.
30:48
I think that I love how financially independent we are.
30:51
I love the fact that women now don't need to be in a relationship because financially they've got themselves.
30:57
You know, like a partner should be adding so much more than financial stability.
31:01
That's not the point of a relationship these days.
31:04
Absolutely.
31:04
And we're the first generation of women who can genuinely choose, is this person adding so much value to my life that I want to spend this much time with them rather than can this person give me the life that I want and pay for things?
31:17
Because that is ultimately where marriage came from is we are giving away our daughters because we can't afford them.
31:23
They're now your financial burden.
31:25
Right.
31:25
That's not the case anymore.
31:26
And back in the day when that was the case, jewelry was a store of value and of – Safety.
31:34
Yeah, it was a financial investment because should something happen, you have jewelry, natural diamonds that hold their value that you can go and sell should you need money to get yourself out of a sticky situation or run away from your marriage or for whatever reason.
31:46
Because remember, wasn't it like 1975 was the first time a woman could open a bank account without having her dad or husband sign some kind of surety?
31:56
So if you're in the 1970s.
31:59
40s 50s 60s and you needed to leave your home it's kind of like that is your fuck you fund your diamond ring is your fuck you fund yeah i'm fleeing in the middle of the night i've got a diamond that i can sell to a pawn shop exactly whereas now relationships i mean depending on whether or not you combine finances is obviously a part of this conversation but if your plan is to combine your finances
32:21
The money that's being spent on that engagement ring is actually kind of joint money in a way.
32:26
So true.
32:27
And if you had conversations about prenups, about what would happen if things went sour within your relationship, that ring or that diamond or your jewelry is not your safety.
32:38
It's actually just something that you wear, as you said, for enjoyment rather than something that you can then get money for by on-selling it.
32:46
It must be quite a scary place.
32:48
Well, I don't know if it's scary so much as just disappointing, but I guess this is the same with any kind of investment you make.
32:53
You don't know if the value is going to go up or down.
32:55
But if you had bought a really big engagement ring, let's say 10 years ago, with the mindset of, wow, this is a lot of money, but you know what?
33:02
It's going to be worth X, Y, Z in future.
33:05
Now that's not the case.
33:07
That must be kind of quite scary.
33:09
Well, let's talk about diamonds as an investment.
33:11
Yeah.
33:11
And let's compare the on-sell price of a lab-grown versus a natural.
33:16
I said to my boyfriend this morning, I asked him because I was like, we're recording this episode.
33:21
I want to know what your thoughts are on it.
33:23
What do you think about lab-grown versus natural?
33:24
If you bought a diamond for me, whether it's like in whatever capacity, would you be buying that as an investment?
33:31
He was like, no, like it's not, it's not really an investment.
33:35
And let's be real, lab-grown diamonds in terms of the on-sale price is not, it's not something you really get much money for if you're trying to sell it on.
33:44
No, when I looked it up, it said there is no liquid secondhand market for lab grown.
33:49
So with that, the whole premise comes down to what you want it to look like.
33:54
Because it's not about, yeah, selling it for what you bought it for.
33:59
It's not like gold.
34:00
It's not like something that is holding like store value.
34:03
But also because diamonds used to be that.
34:07
It's quite interesting to look.
34:08
There's a graph which we'll put on the screen which shows how lab-grown diamonds have moved compared to natural diamonds.
34:14
I mean both are going down in on-sale value.
34:17
It's not – Am I right in thinking that the natural resale value is going down as a result of lab-growns flooding the market?
34:24
Definitely.
34:24
Definitely.
34:25
but there is still more value in selling on a natural diamond.
34:29
I mean, if you look at antique rings or antique jewelry, that is natural diamonds.
34:34
They're unbelievably expensive comparatively to lab-grown diamonds.
34:38
They do hold their value in a different way.
34:40
But they still go down in value.
34:42
They don't go up in value.
34:43
Unless you've got like a one-of-a-kind diamond that's like sitting in, you know, some Royal Albert Hall kind of thing.
34:49
It's not the –
34:50
I was quite surprised by this, going into antique shops and trying on rings, which has made me think I would be so happy with an antique ring.
34:58
They are for quite big diamonds.
35:00
They're a lot more reasonable than if you went into a new jeweler and bought a ring that had just been mined and hasn't been worn by anyone else.
35:08
The price is less.
35:10
Well, see, I mean, I must be looking at enormous vintage rings.
35:13
Yeah.
35:13
Because the ones that I was looking at were so expensive, like £60,000.
35:17
Okay, I think if you're looking at something that's like a five-carat yellow diamond that's super rare or something, for sure it would be more expensive.
35:24
But to your point...
35:26
Diamonds don't go up ever, whether they're lab or natural.
35:30
So while natural diamonds hold value more so than lab-grown, you're not going to be getting return on that investment in a way you would other asset classes.
35:41
Yeah.
35:42
So the mindset around it being an investment, sure, it might have more on sale than LabGron, but it's not something where you're going to be, if you hold onto it for 30 years, getting, you know, 5X on that investment, like you are in other things.
35:56
I think it really comes down to, like, you need to ask yourself, like, what is the intention of buying jewelry?
36:01
Am I buying this because I want to wear something that makes me feel really luxurious, that I like the look of?
36:07
What do you see the value in?
36:09
What is the reason you've chosen natural versus LabGron?
36:12
I think back in the day, before labs came onto the market, I think having a big engagement ring was a sign to society that you had made a good choice in terms of your partner financially.
36:24
And probably for the man, I would assume that he would feel...
36:29
proud that he was able to afford that size diamond.
36:33
But now that's not the case.
36:35
So yeah, good question.
36:36
Is it so that you can tell people that it's natural?
36:39
Because nowadays, I'm not so sure people...
36:44
are interested.
36:45
Well, 85% of our audience said they would openly tell people if their diamond was lab-grown versus not, which I was like, stunning, love the transparency.
36:53
But interestingly, 62% of our audience assume that a diamond over a certain size is probably lab-grown now.
37:00
It's just the assumption.
37:00
Me too.
37:01
I mean, if you're like in your mid 30, if I see like a 70 year old woman with a fuck off big diamond, then I think it's real and I'm impressed.
37:09
But if I see someone our age with a huge diamond on their finger, I'm thinking that's lab grown.
37:14
Yeah.
37:14
So so then what would the intention or reason be to go for a big natural over a big lab grown?
37:20
It's the perception of what other other people would think.
37:23
But if everyone is assuming something massive is lab grown.
37:27
Yeah.
37:27
What's the point?
37:29
I know.
37:29
Yeah.
37:30
Yeah, you don't even get the clout for the big ring.
37:32
No, because everyone is just going to assume it's lab-grown anyway.
37:35
I also feel a little bit like, why would you want to wear a huge ring in public when it could get stolen, you become a target, all those sorts of things?
37:43
Well, a lot of people I know who do have big engagement rings, whether they're lab-grown or natural, either turn them around where they're on the train, they take them off when they go traveling.
37:52
They feel a bit unsafe with a huge big diamond on their finger.
37:55
Yeah, I mean, I think it doesn't hugely appeal to me anymore.
37:59
I mean, yeah, I'm not sure.
38:00
I just can't imagine wearing something big.
38:02
I don't know what – I mean, I have hardly any jewelry.
38:05
I think it would look fake if I had any jewelry on that looked nice and had diamonds.
38:09
People would be like, oh, what costume shop did you get that one from?
38:13
You know?
38:14
Yeah, which lucky packet did you pull that out of?
38:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:16
Was this a Christmas cracker that you won that from?
38:19
Do you think then that when it comes to investing in a diamond for yourself, if you were to buy a nice necklace or ring or anything, you would ever consider not getting lab grown?
38:29
If I was buying an antique, of course, then I wouldn't get lab grown.
38:33
Yeah, but otherwise I think I would just get lab grown now.
38:35
And what would you value more, an antique or something that had been designed for you?
38:40
Antique.
38:40
Really?
38:41
Yeah.
38:41
Why?
38:41
Why?
38:42
I like the idea that something has already got a story.
38:45
It's been worn by someone else.
38:48
I like an off the shelf.
38:49
I'm more of an off the shelf kind of girl, I think.
38:51
Oh, as in so, okay.
38:53
Like leave designing to the designers.
38:54
I find the same thing about like wedding dresses and like bridesmaids dresses.
38:57
Why are we getting those things made?
38:59
Why would you not just buy one?
39:00
Because designers literally do that for their job.
39:03
So just buy one.
39:05
Hi everyone.
39:05
Quick interruption to let you know that you have the chance to win a two-carat lab-grown diamond tennis bracelet.
39:13
It's 925 sterling silver from Michael Hill.
39:15
It is the most chic, beautiful bracelet ever.
39:17
Also worth noting that all of the diamonds meet Michael Hill's diamond standard, so you don't need to worry about them.
39:23
quality it is so gorgeous if you would like to win all you've got to do is follow the curve platform on its dream and michael hill which is at michael hill j just go to our account and you'll see the competition every time you tag a friend it's a separate entry so enter as many times as you like it's open to anyone 18 and over in new zealand australia or canada and we'll link the competition in the podcast show notes all i ask is that you send a photo whoever wins i want to see it in situ in many different outfits i'm really happy for you quite jealous
39:52
And thanks so much to Michael Hill for making this giveaway happen.
39:55
One thing I think we need to speak about, and we've touched on the idea of people's perception of what is lab grown versus natural and the clout or the idea that I've picked well, I've got lots of money, I've got a big engagement ring.
40:08
What about celebrities?
40:09
Because I for sure would just assume that all of those big rings that they wear are natural diamonds, just assuming that.
40:18
They could not be.
40:19
Well, yeah, this is the thing that I've been grappling with is like you would only buy a big natural diamond now if they are chemically exactly the same.
40:28
If you wanted to prove something to like wanted to prove something to the world.
40:32
And I feel like celebrities like we know that you guys are rich, so you don't need to wear a massive natural diamond to prove that to us.
40:41
So if I were them, I would buy a lab grown.
40:45
Because it's not a good financial decision.
40:48
Exactly.
40:48
And actually, I was listening to something anecdotally that was saying the people funding
40:53
The lab-grown market are actually the very rich people because they know how to make a smart financial decision.
40:59
Buying lab-grown is a smarter financial decision than buying something that you're basically just throwing that money away because you're not going to get the money back if you're buying a natural at this time.
41:07
But what I was looking at when I was looking at some of these engagement rings, so celebrity engagement rings that we've seen recently, and we are assuming these are all natural, but we could be totally wrong.
41:17
And I kind of hope that we are.
41:18
Same.
41:19
Because what I was looking at is how much is this ring worth as a percentage of their partner's net worth?
41:26
Oh, love.
41:27
I just thought that was kind of interesting.
41:29
So Taylor Swift, she's got a 10 to 12 carat old mine diamond.
41:35
10 to 12.
41:35
So that must be taking up the whole bit right before the knuckle, right?
41:38
That one apparently is worth $600,000.
41:41
Okay.
41:41
A lot of money.
41:43
If she got the same diamond lab grown, she would have paid about $20,000 USD.
41:47
Okay.
41:48
Do you know Taylor Swift's net worth offhand?
41:51
Because I don't.
41:52
But it's so extreme.
41:53
She's a billionaire, isn't she?
41:54
Yes, yeah.
41:55
That spending almost a million on a ring of her net worth is minimal.
42:00
But what I find interesting about this is he's worth between $70 and $90 million.
42:05
He spent allegedly $600,000 on her ring, which is 1% of his net worth he spent on something that he's given to Taylor.
42:12
Yeah.
42:12
That's like someone who's worth 500,000 pounds, if you include all of their pension, all of their stuff, spending 5,000 pounds on a ring.
42:20
Oh, yeah.
42:20
Which feels kind of reasonable.
42:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:22
Not bad.
42:23
The thing I would say about Travis is money means nothing to Taylor, like I would assume.
42:28
And...
42:29
He is also part of a very airtight prenup.
42:32
Like he's getting none of her wealth.
42:34
So him giving away 1% of his wealth, I don't think is like the smartest decision.
42:38
Ah, interesting.
42:40
But the one who I think is like actually the craziest, it's Callum Turner.
42:43
So Dua Lipa has a net worth of 200 million.
42:47
He's got a net worth of 5 million.
42:49
Oh, shit.
42:50
I know.
42:51
Do they have a prenup?
42:51
They do, don't they?
42:52
They must do.
42:53
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was publicly spoken about.
42:55
So she got a round, brilliant cut, which we know is the most expensive.
42:59
It's set in like a really thick gold band, which I think is really cool.
43:02
It's called a gypsy ring.
43:03
Yeah, we'll put an image on the screen for anyone that hasn't seen that.
43:06
That is between $80,000 and $300,000.
43:08
So let's say $250,000.
43:11
If she'd got it lab grown, it would have been about $5,000.
43:15
And that is 4% of his net worth.
43:17
If you bought her a natural, that's 4% of his net worth.
43:20
And I feel like that's not a good investment.
43:23
Also, there's no way he only spent $5,000 USD on her ring.
43:30
No.
43:30
Because I feel like he had to be like, I've brought something to the table.
43:34
This is what I'm bringing to her.
43:35
Shit.
43:36
I know.
43:36
4% of your net worth.
43:37
That's a lot.
43:39
So that's basically like someone who has a 500k net worth spending 20k on a ring.
43:44
It's too much.
43:45
No, too much.
43:46
Oh, I'm loving this percentage.
43:48
I know.
43:48
How interesting.
43:49
Okay, then Zendaya.
43:51
Sorry, Zendaya.
43:52
She got a five carat cushion cut.
43:54
So she's married to Tom Holland.
43:56
Tom Holland.
43:57
Okay.
43:57
Her ring is valued at $250,000.
44:00
If she'd got lab grown, it would have been about $8,000.
44:03
Okay, so her net worth is $40 million.
44:05
Also, interesting how all of these women have higher net worths than their partners.
44:08
So I wonder if their partners feel like they have to bring out the big guns for the engagement ring.
44:12
Because it's like, I'm not going to be able to create the life that you want because you've already created a girl.
44:17
So here's a little token of my appreciation.
44:19
Yeah.
44:20
I kind of get that.
44:21
Yeah.
44:21
So Tom Holland's worth $25 million.
44:23
Zendaya's worth $40 million.
44:25
And so he also spent about 1% of his net worth on a ring.
44:29
So Callum Turner has probably made a not particularly great financial decision.
44:34
I know.
44:35
Not great.
44:35
No.
44:35
I think also if you zoom out and now what we've done is make giant rocks more accessible price-wise.
44:44
And the fact that you can't tell what is lab versus natural, it almost to me feels like, I'm trying to figure out how I say this in a not crass way.
44:53
There's a lot of things that we can't access because we don't have a lot of, or the same amount of wealth as these couples that we're talking about.
45:05
I would say it is a terrible financial decision for somebody to be spending well above what they can afford to get a big natural diamond.
45:16
Absolutely.
45:17
And we actually had a guy come through.
45:19
I want to read his.
45:21
Oh, amazing.
45:22
Yeah, I know.
45:23
This is from a guy.
45:23
I'm like a stunning stew.
45:25
Love this from you.
45:25
Where is it?
45:26
Okay.
45:26
So he said, they are geochemically indistinguishable.
45:30
So at a fraction of the cost, why wouldn't you buy Labgron?
45:34
I bought my fiance an engagement ring as a Labgron.
45:36
I could have afforded to max the cut, color, clarity, and carrot weight, but it was a no-brainer.
45:43
to do lab grown over natural plus no blood diamonds which we haven't actually touched on yet as even if they say they are good and they are traceable in terms of natural it's just not worth the paper it's written on so how can you be sure lab grown for the win in my opinion and i just think it's kind of interesting when someone has the money to buy natural they're choosing lab grown
46:06
Yes, because he's financially savvy.
46:07
He probably has the money because he's made other smart financial decisions in his life.
46:11
Why would buying a diamond be any different?
46:13
Yeah, I might even read another one from a listener.
46:16
So someone sent this in.
46:17
They said, long-time listener of the pod, we offer both lab-grown and natural diamonds.
46:22
So obviously they're a jewelry company.
46:24
They're essentially the same, the only difference being their origin.
46:27
Personally, I'm not anti-natural or anti-lab.
46:30
The only time that I really cringe is when a female client comes to us wanting a three-carat lab diamond.
46:36
Then her partner or husband decides that it must be natural, so she ends up with a much smaller diamond and a lower color and clarity specs, and he spends a whole lot more money.
46:44
There's a bit of an education barrier for men in my experience.
46:47
Yeah.
46:47
That's what I was going to say.
46:48
I think it sounds like some guys feel like they are shortchanging their partner by buying lab grown off over natural.
46:57
But I think it sounds like that is an education barrier because Stu, our friend Stu, who bought the lab, even though he could afford the natural, seems to have done the research and the education enough to know that they're identical.
47:10
I was quite surprised by this, though, in the sense that I almost would have thought
47:17
for a lab grand that looked bigger, that could be considered natural, but spend less money on it.
47:25
From the ego perspective of going back to the idea of an engagement ring is showing off my wealth.
47:32
I afforded that.
47:33
Look at my wife with that giant rock.
47:35
I know this is all really antiquated, but there is also in reverse as women who,
47:40
think or used to, I've got a big rock.
47:43
This then, you know, signifies that my partner can afford XYZ.
47:46
I think you've got to think about context as well.
47:48
Like if your partner's walking around with a five carat diamond on her finger, but you guys are, people know what kind of jobs you do, or they know your financial situation.
47:59
Having the five carat diamond alone is not going to make them think that you're doing well financially.
48:04
So I think like within the you need to think about within the context of now that and I feel like guys talk and surely they'd be like, did you get it?
48:11
It was a lab.
48:12
What did you go for lab or natural?
48:14
So I don't think it's that easy anymore to cosplay as doing really financially well by the size of the ring that your partner has.
48:22
So in 2025, 70% of engagement rings were lab-grown diamond rings.
48:30
That's up nearly 15% from 2024.
48:32
So that to me signals that most people are opting for lab-grown.
48:37
I know somebody whose ring costs £20,000.
48:40
It's a natural diamond and it's pretty big.
48:43
Yeah.
48:44
Why would she have wanted that?
48:46
Why would her partner have spent that?
48:48
If she was a smart girl, she would have got the ring for 5K, lab grown exactly the same, put that 15K in the S&P.
48:54
That's just my opinion.
48:56
But should she have put that in as if it's almost her money?
48:59
Like I want you to spend $20,000 on me, but I only want you to spend $5,000 on that because I know someone else who's messaged me and wanted to remain anonymous, and she said, when we looked at the types of rings that I wanted and how I asked what the budget was that he wanted to spend,
49:14
and then I chose I wanted Labgon and then I invested the rest under my name, which I thought was quite interesting.
49:20
Yeah, I think I would do that.
49:22
I don't like the idea that it's transactional though.
49:24
Do you know what I mean?
49:25
It shouldn't be like this is how much I want you to spend to make me feel valued by you.
49:29
I like the idea of it just being –
49:32
I don't know, but I mean, that's the reality of life, isn't it?
49:34
Like you do have to put some monetary things.
49:37
But nowadays when people are joining finances, I wouldn't be that thrilled if we were spending 20,000 of our joint money on something that I'm going to wear on my finger.
49:46
I might be scared to wear on my finger or it might get lost or whatever.
49:49
Like financially –
49:51
putting your ego aside because i guess that's probably what it comes down to there's this this ego or need to impress others that makes you say oh i want to be the person who has the natural diamond but actually if you if you got rid of what other people would know about what other people would think what you think other people would think would you would you care would you sleep better every night knowing that your ring cost 20 000 pounds and was natural versus lab
50:16
I think it comes down to what the arrangement is post-marriage with your finances.
50:21
Because I think we also should acknowledge the fact that we are disadvantaged by, if we choose to have kids, in many, many, many ways,
50:32
And if you're a part of a partnership, you're not joining finances.
50:37
You're not, I guess, collaborating on the future wealth that you can create together, which is everyone's choice is like it doesn't actually matter.
50:44
But I do think if I was –
50:49
marrying someone that had more money than I did they didn't want to combine finances but they wanted to get married and have children I think I would think about it differently that's a really interesting point the amount of money that they would spend on jewelry for me because it would be an investment for me because we're not in a shared financial partnership
51:08
I think that's really interesting.
51:10
And I get that because you might be sacrificing, you'll be sacrificing time out of your career, potentially if you stay at home for longer, even more time out of your career.
51:20
Your body.
51:20
Your body.
51:21
Yeah.
51:21
So there is a little bit of a transactional nature to that.
51:25
And I could see why you would say, look, I want X, Y, and Z.
51:29
In the same way where there's some couples who say, you know, I want you to compensate me for carrying each baby.
51:34
This is...
51:35
Totally a push present.
51:36
Yeah.
51:37
But again, push present back in the day came because it was a financial exchange.
51:44
It was thank you for carrying this baby.
51:47
Here is diamonds that are valuable as a thank you.
51:51
It is transactional.
51:52
That's really interesting.
51:53
Like that's going to have to change now because I actually think the push present –
51:58
That needs to have a certain value assigned to it.
52:01
And if diamonds are now no longer a valuable item, you kind of, your push present should be like stocks or something.
52:07
But then what's the difference in an engagement ring?
52:09
Because the engagement ring was also had that exact same attachment.
52:13
Well, because for me, an engagement ring is two people choosing to be together.
52:17
It's not under duress or anything.
52:19
But so should a baby.
52:20
I know, but carrying a child is a sacrifice.
52:23
I agree, but...
52:25
If you're not combining finances with somebody or you want to keep them separate for whatever reason, what is the difference?
52:32
The whole point of an engagement ring is I'm kind of buying you.
52:35
As in historically, that was the premise of it.
52:38
It was I'll spend this amount of money if you agree to kind of be mine.
52:42
It is a situation.
52:44
It's gross.
52:44
It's not cash.
52:45
It's actually really awful to think of it in that way.
52:47
But that is kind of – but again, maybe it's actually not really because that's only the last 100 years.
52:52
And before that, when people got engaged, they didn't use diamonds.
52:55
So, yeah, I don't know.
52:57
I don't know how I feel about it.
52:58
I still am finishing this conversation not really any more clear on where I stand on it.
53:03
The thing that I think people think is that a lot of people say, oh, lab grown because it's the ethical choice.
53:09
And I don't actually think doing the research now, I don't think it's as cut and dry as that.
53:13
They are very ethical ways of mining diamonds, just like they are very unethical ways of creating lab grown.
53:19
And unless you have the right certifications around it and the right information of sourcing, you actually can't say the one is more ethical than the other, which I think is quite interesting and different to how the media has portrayed it.
53:32
natural versus lab.
53:34
One of the things that we also haven't touched on is, you know, natural diamonds have become and they were marketed in this way where this is a sign of love.
53:42
I don't think lab-grown have had any kind of, they haven't really spun anything other than it's more ethical.
53:49
That's sort of the main piece that I've heard when it comes to lab-grown.
53:53
But I do think given that that is sort of null and void now, given it's the same as anything, there can be very ethical lab-grown and very unethical lab-grown.
54:02
I don't know.
54:02
I feel like it needs a bit of a rebrand.
54:04
I really feel like they need a rebrand.
54:06
They need to get some extremely influential people choosing Lab Grown over natural and advertising it.
54:15
Imagine Kylie Jenner gets engaged to Timothee Chalamet and...
54:20
Advertises that her massive rock is actually lab grown because why the hell would you spend on a natural diamond when you can get the exact same thing?
54:29
We need influential people or they need to go and go for like a super chic brand like a Louvre or something.
54:37
and get them to somehow market lab-grown diamonds so that people start seeing them as part of like the cultural zeitgeist and not like the poor cousin of the natural diamond yeah yeah i mean yeah okay let's round this conversation off by asking you and this you can answer differently whether it's an engagement ring or just a piece of jewelry that has diamonds yeah
55:00
How do you feel about a lab-grown diamond as a piece of jewelry?
55:06
Do you see jewelry as an investment and therefore want to opt for natural?
55:10
Or do you see jewelry as something to be enjoyed, not necessarily an investment, and therefore you don't mind about lab-grown?
55:18
Where are you sitting on the spectrum?
55:19
I would say I don't think about jewelry as an investment, but I do think about it in terms of durability and longevity.
55:26
The fact that lab is now something that is as durable and long lasting as a natural diamond and is cheaper, so a better financial decision, means that my head is saying I would go lab.
55:38
And I actually think I would extend that to an engagement ring too.
55:41
Unless I was going for an antique, which was already made and it had a natural diamond in it, I actually think, let's move with the times.
55:47
I'm quite happy with the lab.
55:49
But I want to know what you think.
55:51
Oh, it's so awkward because every time I've heard or asked this question to somebody and people that I really value their opinion, this is going to make me sound like such an idiot, but I'm just going to share it because I think it's important to be honest.
56:03
I was speaking to someone yesterday who I really value their opinion.
56:08
And I said, you know, what is your perspective on lab versus natural?
56:12
She was like, I don't care.
56:13
I don't care if it's lab grown.
56:15
It just doesn't bother me.
56:15
And I felt this sense of relief.
56:17
Yeah.
56:18
Okay.
56:18
Because you're like, I don't want to be judged by her if I went one or the other.
56:22
I think that I can't pull out other people's judgment because it's also how I feel about it.
56:30
So when I say to your point around a rebrand or around all these people that we look up to and respect, I'm not saying we look up and respect Kylie Jenner, but my point is just the more that it's normalized, the more that I feel like, oh God, I sound such an idiot saying this.
56:48
I just think I feel really validated and reassured when people say they don't care if it's lab grown or natural.
56:58
I so get that.
56:59
The more people that are saying they don't care, I'm really happy about that.
57:04
I think that's great.
57:05
And I find it really cool when celebrities are honest about the fact that they have lab-grown diamonds.
57:10
Yeah.
57:11
Because we are influenced by them.
57:12
I've got friends who are very wealthy.
57:15
They have a lot of money.
57:17
And when they say, I don't care at all if it's lab-grown, I have that same feeling of...
57:21
Oh, amazing.
57:22
Cool.
57:22
They've got nothing to prove.
57:24
Yes.
57:24
And I think maybe that's what it is.
57:27
I think because I haven't got a huge amount of wealth or I'm not in a position where I'm wealthy and I have all these assets, I think that there's still for me like a spend mentality that is approving to other people, which I do still inherently have.
57:46
I know for a fact people that have proper wealth who are driving Toyota Corollas.
57:53
They are making really clever financial decisions because they don't care what other people think because they have nothing that they need to showcase externally.
58:02
And I know for myself, I'm not there yet with my own money story.
58:06
I'm definitely getting better.
58:07
But I still, you know, when you asked me earlier, do I value gifts as a, I guess, like a
58:13
Love language.
58:14
I actually think if I pull it back when you said, would you care if something or would you see more love in someone going into a store and spending money on you versus someone spending time and energy and creative output on designing something for you?
58:26
I think that if I was truly wealthy and I felt really like I had what I need, I think there'd be no question where I would say the design element.
58:35
But I think because I still have quite a scarcity mindset.
58:38
I'm fighting against that urge to, to not feel loved and validated by someone spending on me.
58:44
That's incredibly self-aware.
58:46
It's also embarrassing to admit.
58:47
I don't, I think it's so wonderful that you can admit that.
58:49
And the thing is, is that that could change.
58:52
I definitely have felt like that at times in my life where I think that someone spending a certain amount on me means something, but it's quite nice to know that that probably won't be your mindset forever.
59:01
I hope not.
59:02
Yeah.
59:03
I really hope not.
59:04
I'd love to be driving around in Toyota Corolla feeling like an absolute baller and being really proud of my financial decisions and being able to spend money on things that I value, not with one eye on what do people think of this or how is this being perceived.
59:18
But yeah, it's a work in progress.
59:20
I would like to say thank you to everyone in your community and our community who shared honestly about what they think about natural versus lab grown jewelry as investments or not investments.
59:33
It's so helpful to not just look at these global statistics that are reported by people we don't know and actually that come from our own audiences.
59:41
Yeah, like people like us.
59:42
Yeah.
59:43
Who are like-minded.
59:44
Exactly.
59:44
And for anyone that does want to look more in detail on what those stats are, we've got a sub stack that we've put out with all of the like raw, honest data that has come through from both of our audiences.
59:55
So if you want to go and like with a fine tooth comb and look in more detail, then we will share that link in the podcast show notes.
59:59
But Fran, thank you so much.
1:00:01
Thanks for having me.
1:00:02
For coming on this episode.
1:00:03
So good.
1:00:03
Loved it.
1:00:04
And if anyone has any thoughts or feedback on this episode, please comment where you're listening.
1:00:09
Please try to be nice.
1:00:10
We were trying to be honest here and it is kind of exposing to do.
1:00:13
So if you do disagree with anything shared, definitely want to hear.
1:00:18
But please be kind in your feedback.
1:00:20
Okay, all from me.
1:00:22
Thanks, guys.
1:00:23
Bye.
1:00:23
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1:00:26
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1:00:28
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1:00:29
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1:00:39
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1:00:43
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1:00:49
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1:00:58
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1:01:03
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