Latest / The On Purpose Podcast / Ep. 347 - Anthony Dyer
Transcript
- speaker-0: You are listening to the On Purpose Podcast. There's a moment in every man's life, especially for veterans, first responders, and men called to lead when the uniform comes off, but the mission doesn't end. Too many try to navigate that transition alone without structure, accountability, or brotherhood. That's why I'm proud to partner with Missions Purpose, a community built for men who refuse to drift. Inside the school platform, You get live calls, challenges, frameworks, and disciplined brotherhood that pushes you to rebuild purpose, direction, and daily structure. If you're ready for the next chapter of your mission, click the link in the show notes to join us inside the Missions Purpose Community on School. You are never meant to walk this road alone. If you run a business, listen up, because my friend, Dr. Elise Rigney, just dropped something every entrepreneur needs. Elise is who we trust for our strategy and she put together a free 40 minute breakdown of the new big beautiful bill that will impact you this tax season. This thing changes a lot. Deductions, depreciation, write-offs and most business owners won't understand it until it's too late. We've used her strategies ourselves and they work. So grab her free training at the link in our show notes and get ahead of this bill before it hits your bottom line. What's up everybody? Welcome back to this week's edition of the On Purpose podcast where today I'm joined with Anthony Dyer, a former US Air Force Special Missions Aviator who spent more than a decade flying high risk operations around the world. His crew earned the Air Force's Jolly Green Rescue Mission of year in 2018, but what really inspired me to bring Anthony on the show is the story that matters most now in his life is what he's telling about off the battlefield. He's the author of a book called Moon Child, a raw and honest memoir about war, trauma, addiction, and a long road to recovery. And you know how we feel about having these real conversations and getting some of the stuff that lives in the shadows out into the light. not just for our veterans and our first responders, but for anybody that's wondering where life's going and how they got there. And I'm excited to bring Anthony on to help us bring that stuff out of the dark. He's a husband, a father, and he's rebuilding purpose in real time. He's on here today to explain the journey behind the uniform and the healing that came after it. So Anthony, my friend, welcome to the On Purpose podcast. speaker-1: Hey, thanks for having me, Jerry. I appreciate it, speaker-0: Dude, it's my honor to have you here. First off, I want to just say thank you, not only for what you did for our country serving, right? And the stuff you did, Special Ops pilot, I can only imagine the craziness you got to see in the world and the stuff that we don't even really know what goes on, but we're thankful for it because it allows our country to be our country. But I also really want to applaud you for being willing to come out and share. some stuff that other people may not talk about. And that's what goes on in our bodies and our minds after the battlefield. So thank you for having the courage to do that and share that so the rest of us can learn from it. speaker-1: Thank you. was a real privilege, an honor, a flight beside the, you know, the best men and women in the world. ⁓ The aviation background, I was an aerial gunner. They call it Special Missions Aviator now. And what that means is like the Air Force combined, like the aerial gunner, the loadmaster, and the flight engineer career field, and they put all this one person doing all those tasks on a AC-130 gunship or a paid Fockele copter, in my case, as well. speaker-0: Would you prefer the helicopter or the C-130? speaker-1: Man, I get asked this a lot and I always try to be careful. But if I'm being honest, so if I'm being honest, like there's nothing better for an illicit guy flying around in a helicopter shooting the grip and rip the mini gun on some white phosphorus MVG's. yeah, it was both awesome communities, man. The specter, the gunship, and the Jolly Greens and the rescue part of it. speaker-0: Well, I'll tell you, my only experience with the C-130 is we were training for Mogadishu. was back when we were in Somalia in the early 90s. And part of the workup is they flew us from Montana down to Arkansas to train. And we sat in the back of that C-130 just laying in the nets, because there's no seats or anything. We were in the cargo nets with the headphones. Yeah, every time I see them, I still remember. That was a fun little flight. speaker-1: Yeah, it was definitely an awesome platform, you know, it's basically the whole purpose of the gunship is to provide that close air support for, I think I call them super ninjas in the book there, you know, the guys on the ground, your seals, your green berets and your Rangers types. you know, it was always, it was never really about the, like the EKIA stuff for me. It was all about making sure those guys got home to their family. And I saw someone the other day, man, there's letters around that squadron where like, you know, they thank the gunship for the rounds and the close air support. there's There's one if I remember right, sort of my cornerstone of my why I always looked at it and there was like a Ranger holding his baby girl and he thanks the squadron for the rounds and he was able to get home to see his baby girl. it was always to me that was always my why and my purpose. And that's gone, that's a hard thing to lose once you get out. speaker-0: Yeah, let's yeah, let's hold on to that for a second cuz Anthony I like to think of this is like a workout my friend I got to warm you up before we get into the heavy stuff I gotta make sure your muscles and your minds ready to go. So you ready for your warm up questions? Sounds good. All right, here we go. First one Anthony. What's something you've been learning about yourself lately? speaker-1: I've been learning to approach situations with audacity. I came up with a quote, actually this is a couple weeks old or whatnot, but I tell people now that audacity kills doubt and tenacity it buries it. So whatever you do in life, you can't go into it half cocked. You gotta be willing to go the distance. speaker-0: I love that. What made you think of that? What was going on in your day? speaker-1: I was just thinking about something as simple as working out, know, like getting up right, you know, not hitting the snooze button, you know, going to the gym and just the intensity of my workout and, know, like have all these advantages, you know, and just, you know, playing to fitness right down the road or I got the gym on base and like, wouldn't I come at that with some, some tenacity and get the workout that, you know, I want my body to have. speaker-0: I it, I love it. Alright, what's a small habit or ritual that's giving you positive energy lately? speaker-1: I'd definitely say the prayers, know, first thing you wake up in the morning, and a prayer I tell people could be as simple as you know, give gratitude for God, you know, I'm still vertical this morning, right, when I got up, so I'm happy, you speaker-0: That's the truth, man. A lot of people, like, we forget just that simple thing, right? A lot of people didn't make it through the night around the world. speaker-1: Correct, yeah, that's right, very true. speaker-0: It's the fact we're up, man, means we get to recreate a new day. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, that's a, what's the saying? Die a living, know, so do something, do what you want to do, you know, be bold. speaker-0: Yeah, All right, what about this one? Who's someone in your life right now that's influencing your thinking or inspiring you? speaker-1: I would definitely say my wife, know, like she's definitely started teaching. ⁓ You know, when I was, the whole time I was in, she was a stay at home mom, you know, and that's the hardest job in military is the spouses, you know, and to see her like take on this teaching role and just the drive to get her masters and everything that comes with that, to see her perseverance, you know, and still be, you know, the best mom in the world. It's a blessing to see that and witness that, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, dude, that's so nice, man. I hope she heard that. I'll have to make sure she gets that clip from this episode. speaker-1: We'll definitely get her for some brownie points, you know, so. ⁓ speaker-0: Alright, what about this one? When you think about the season you're in right now in your life, what word or phrase best describes it? speaker-1: I would say right now it's sunny at 75, man. So no storms at the moment. I know there's always gonna be a storm, you like you can't have life without that. how, you know, honestly, how boring would life be if it was always sunny at 75, you know? speaker-0: Dude, I don't know, but I agree with that, I also like, dude, I really like Sonny in 75. It's pretty easy. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely comfortable. And, ⁓ you know, it's, I'm getting to do like things I never thought I could do. Like, you know, even, you know, public speaking, for example, this conversation, man, you know, a year ago, I'd be terrified to get on here, man, and tripping over my words and, you know, dreading, but now, now I look forward to these things, man. So I appreciate it. speaker-0: Dude, I love it. Man, we're honored to have you on the show. That's the whole premise of this, is to get to learn from people and learn with them and share with them and grow. So it's our privilege to have you here. And I'm excited to learn more about you. And I want to start with kind of your early formation, your roots, because if I understand right, you grew up in the Appalachian Mountains. So you're an East Coast mountain guy. How did that environment? kind of bring you some of that toughness of stuff to get you through life. speaker-1: Yeah, I would definitely say I learned at a real, ⁓ you know young age that you know the saying like no one's coming to rescue You know, like you have to be you have to depend on you know yourself and and I tell people you're never really truly on you always got God right but how to get out of situations and learn the true meaning of perseverance, know, and to basically my dad always taught me don't ever let someone out work you either right because like They could have more talent than you, they could be smarter, bigger, faster, stronger, but at the end of the day, you can't beat a dude or girl that just works, works, works, you speaker-0: Yeah, somebody that doesn't quit, you just can't get ahead of them. You know, it's interesting you say that, that nobody's coming to rescue you because part of our travels last year, we were in Virginia, right on the North Carolina border when Hurricane Helene hit Asheville. And so we got to kind of contribute a little bit to the people we were working with there. But that was a phrase I heard so many people saying, it's just like, you know. get your shit like nobody's coming to save you. We gotta do this ourselves. And you really saw, you saw that toughness come together and that sense of community they have. speaker-1: Yeah, I definitely saw that that sense of community there's this I couldn't talk to my parents for like a week because I'm in New Mexico and I'm you know, that's the cell towers went out and stuff like that and You know, I had to reach out to this lady the only lady I could find I like did basically a Mayday on Facebook rally Hey, if anybody has service back home, you know, ⁓ please let me know I'd like to get a check on my parents and this lady ⁓ Sweet lady named Linda. She definitely checked on him So it's a to see everybody come together and when you started seeing those airlifts to see 17th come in and just bring it you see all them people, know many hands make light work right and just come together and that's all you have in those situations is each other, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I know there's something for that for sure. There's something about those rural communities that where the bedrock of the community is your hard work and your individual contributing to the team. How did you, so how did that prepare you for the military? How'd you end up going, getting into the Air Force and then working your way over to the special ops side? speaker-1: Yeah, no problem. I, when I was 17, call it 17 and a half, know, and my senior year in high school, my dad gives me the cliche talk. He saw me going nowhere with my life. And honestly, I was going nowhere, making bad decisions and I'm sort of doing the wrong thing. And he's like, you know, it's time to either get a job, go to college or get out when you graduate. And at this point I talked to a Navy recruiter and he's talking about being on a boat for six months than an Army recruiter and didn't want to do that. So at that point I talked to my dad about sort of the quality of life of the air force, you know, the the good TDYs, good child halls and golf clubs and all that sort of image that people think we have. All that stuff. And so there I was July 18th of 2000 on my first fixed wing flight from ⁓ Charlotte, North Carolina to San Antonio, Texas. And I sort of, I guess sort of elevated into the special operations side. I started out my first five years ⁓ as a weapons loader on the F-15 Strike Eagles. So basically that's a guy that loads the bombs and missiles, the air air missiles and the. speaker-0: Yeah man, for sure. speaker-1: the air to ground bombs for those guys. And I did second five years as an Air Force firefighter and went to the ⁓ Louis F. Garland Fire Academy there in Texas. I think it's San Angelo, Texas. did that and awesome community, man. of my best moments of my life was in that firehouse, being there 24 hours with the guys, right? And then finally I was at home at a pizza joint, man on leave actually, and I was with some friends and I look out in the book, I call it the same cracks in the road, right? Like the same cracks in the road that been there my whole life. And I was like, man, like, you know, You can't take nothing with you, man. I tell people there's no hearse behind a U-Haul, right? I want to be remembered for doing something awesome with my career when my grandkids ask about it one day. And well, I'll leave cracks, I'll leave craters, man. And that's when I decided to become an air gunner in the mighty AC-130 gunship. speaker-0: What was that process like for you? Because you're, you know, let me let me stop you real quick. I'm sorry about that, Anthony, because you're already comfortable. You're like 10 years into a career. And one of the things that kills dreams is comfort. Right. Like you're halfway to retirement. You're probably doing pretty good on your second ⁓ career. Right. The firefighting side. It could be easy to cruise to get promoted, move up the ranks and stay there. But what how did you speaker-1: It was definitely speaker-0: Say, wait, no, I want to kind of start over and do this again. speaker-1: Yeah, and I had read a book too at this around this time. It was called A Chosen Soldier by Dick Coutts and the very beginning of that book, there's the Bible verse, Isaiah 6, 8, know, the send me verse, right? Now, this is way before the movie Fury and all that made that verse sort of famous. But I was like, you know, I have been sitting on the sidelines and like I wanted to make the most, to serve my country, the highest capacity that I could, you know. And I realized, you know, like physically, like, you know, I'm trying to be a realist. couldn't be a. an operator's water server game changer in itself. But what I could do is provide that close air support and make sure those guys get home. And so that was my why, man, and that was my drive at that point. And the whole thing took about a year from start to finish to get checked out. speaker-0: What was it like knowing you made it there? What was it like when you got through all the training and you accepted that first mission and you realized like, man, this is the proverbial tip of the spirit. Like we're the front lines of the front lines. speaker-1: Oh yeah, it didn't really hit me till my first actual like shoot there in like Northeastern Afghanistan and we had been done, you know, weeks, but maybe even a month to that point of just, basically ISR type stuff, you know, and like basically doing nothing, you know, the only rounds that we had shot on this, this night before this was the tweak rounds for the, like the 105 millimeter. And what that is is like basically just like any weapon, you have to spend a few rounds to align your sights in, you know, well, same thing with the 105 howitzer. So we, you know, think seven, eight rounds, I was reloading the rack and Daytime's coming up and it's very rare for a gunship to fly during the day. There's like waivers that have to happen and stuff like that. And so the pilot comes back to the gun deck, you know, and he's like, there's a Green Beret team. They're pinned down taking Dishka and RPG fire. And he's like, who's with me? And of course we all in our own ways said, send me right. And I just remember, man, we're flying over this operation and the daytime's coming up and I had my monocle NVG on back then. We didn't have the two ones, but I was looking out the scanner window and I just see two bright flashes. Boom, boom, you know. the RPGs go off and went back and I got on the 40 mil both wars and you know, think we shot about 67 rounds give or take and what it was was there was these three Taliban guys that had explosive packs on shooting our ground guys, you know, our green braids and you know, I remember when the dust settled like like man, I had the honor and privilege to do more for my country an hour and a half at that point and I had done my whole life, you know, so that's a awesome responsibility man and I loved it and always always chase that feeling, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, and we'll get into chasing that feeling later, because I think that's one of the things that sometimes harms us in certain lines of work, is we're always trying to replicate that feeling that we can't get unless we're there. But let me ask you this, Anthony. What's something that, like, so a lot of our community is civilian, a lot of our community is serving their communities in different ways. What's something you wish they would know about that special ops aviation community and just what you guys were doing over there in general that maybe they don't get to see through media or mainstream channels. speaker-1: I would say definitely the fact that we're all just very normal men and women doing very uncommon things, You know, just the nature of the gunship mission. mean, that is your job is to take human lives, right? But to understand that it was for something, you know, it was for our brothers on the ground, right? And sisters, make sure they got home. It's just that the normal part of, you know, of combat that we're all having to, at some way, you know, face all this, you know, and turn that being able to turn that switch off is not often as easy as people think it would be, you know? speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good point. I think sometimes we look at other people and we think like they have it easy or they're special and you're right, man, like all of us at some level are going through the same things, right? Like you got bills to pay, you got dinner to make, you got to wonder if you took out the trash or not. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, there was this this place I love in the 16th. I put it in a book there. You know, I'd have my flight, my flight kit, my helmet, my mask and stuff. And I remember walking out. This is the squadron back home. Right. And right before I went to the plane, man, no matter what I had going on in my life, like the finances, the emotional, you know, back when I was single type stuff. Right. And, know, just whatever had going on in my life, I left it right there. And there was when you pass through that door, said in old English, you know, we who pass through these portals stand tall. To me, man, that was always more symbolic than like a Notre Dame hitting the play like a champion tonight. That was that sign for me. But yeah, was just, I call it an arena. You're in the arena at that point once you get in that aircraft. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. It's time to separate from everything else. So let's stay on that topic because that's interesting, right? Because like we compartmentalize our work life and the things we have to do at work and then you have your family. So you try to keep them separate. But over time, you can build up walls that make it hard to to bring the two together and reconcile them. So could you share with me? Was there a moment when you realized that the job was taking more from you than you thought it was? speaker-1: I would definitely say, because sort of my situation, know, I multiple gunship deployments, went to H860 Pave Hawks, did a pretty nasty cast of that, you know, and then my last, call it two, two and a half years, I went back to gunships because I wanted to do that before my sunset tour, right? you know, and I remember at this point I'd had my kid, you know, and I think I put it through, that was a fourth deployment for her, you know, and just there was always this thing where guys would fear like getting home and like their kids wouldn't recognize them, right? That's a... That's a very real thing you worry about. So yeah, I would say it does take your time away from you. And I tell people, I always try to be cautious with that because when we sign up for this life, our wife and kids sign up too. So they're going through it too. So I would say the biggest thing that it took away from me was just that time. But luckily, I was never in a situation where my kid definitely recognized me. speaker-0: Yeah, how do you so talk us through that right because you know many of us will never be in that situation so you're overseas and you're bonded with the men and women that are they're doing the fighting with you and serving with you and you're You have doubts about your family. You're wondering what they're going through. How do you guys support each other over? How was that? What was that like? speaker-1: Tell about the guys I flew with and stuff like that. Yeah, there's a lot of, so there is downtime. A lot of pranks come with that downtime, man. You name it, we probably did it to each other. Back then we lived in the bee huts, basically these plywood huts in Bogrom. You'd have six or seven people in one hut. Man, it's just lot of, I was gonna say, ridiculous fart jokes and pranks and the camaraderie part of it. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. speaker-1: But at the same time, you're holding each other accountable to get up, work out when you don't wanna work out. And it's time to work and go on a mission. Make sure everybody's minds right at that point. speaker-0: Yeah, and those are some of the memories you take with you, right? Is just the goofy times you have and that's some of the stuff you miss, right? Is not necessarily doing the thing, but like all the time you had and getting to know each other. And I know for at least me, when I think back on my career, like some of the things I miss most are just the fun little things we did that had nothing to do with the actual job. They were just with each other. speaker-1: Yeah, and there's you know, you know each other so well too, right? Like you you know, like when something's not right, you know, like or someone's not there 100 % self that day like you you know, and you those type of men and women will ask you they won't be like hey, you know, like Anthony, how's it going? They'll be like how you doing really man? Like what's going on because they they know you so well and you know them, know, and I tell people like, know when it comes to friendship and stuff like that, right? We all heard of iron sharpens iron, right? But I tell people surround yourself, especially when you get out with those same four quarters, you know, keep in touch with them. The 100 pennies mean nothing. Those seasonal friends, right? But the ones that count are those four quarters. speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. Let's talk about your book, Anthony Moonchild. And in that book, you talk about the battles that don't make it into the mission reports, right? The ones that are going on inside of us that nobody really knows about. What would you say was one of the first signs you knew that something in you was breaking or not where you wanted it to be? speaker-1: I would say like I did my last appointment on my 20th year mark like on the dot that day like I sort of wanted to do that and this I was back on gunship at this point and I remember we had been to Iraq and you know I don't think we shot once in like you know 90 days it was so slow you know and that whole purpose I could see it degrading right and that my identity was leaving me and I got back it's sort of to be honest with you out of anger right and like this just not having a why anymore I felt like I hit the retirement button and once I hit that I couldn't take it back you know and And there's this realization, man, that I had, you know, when you out process these situations, the Air Force or military, you get your infamous DD-214, right? And I'm filling out all this paperwork, probably my last time, you know? And basically when you leave, man, there's no door handle on the other side of that door, right? So you can walk out, but you can never truly, truly get back into this thing, right? And so ⁓ with that, especially that last year, I went down this, I mean, jumped off a cliff with drinking, bro, like. What was a weekend drinking habit turned into like a pine of night right like um or more and sleeping pills you name it to go to sleep and you know my wife was that hey, you know, it's like I see what's going on. It's either the bottle or me and your daughter and you know, I'm by the grace of God. I chose my family man. So at that point I started getting prolonged exposure therapy with the you so calm the influx of psychologists and what that is basically is like you start Writing out the situation right and then then you get to where you could talk about it be comfortable being uncomfortable so like we're doing now right to where it's like nothing at that point just to talk about it. But it's definitely a blessing and I'm glad I got it. speaker-0: Yeah, let's talk, man, you brought up something that I've shared with other veterans and groups we talk with a lot. And that is, you had a great imagery the way you said it. And that is that when you walk out, there's no door handle to come back. And I think that is, I mean, it's so hard to get over, right? To realize like, as soon as I walk out, like I'm not even allowed back in here, right? This is never going to be the same again. What do you wish? we could have done that would have maybe changed that experience for you that we could learn from and change for the next guy that's going to walk away tomorrow or in 10 years or 15 years to make that process smoother. speaker-1: Yeah, I would say to realize like hey this was a chapter in my life in the book right and that that this the new mission continues on right and that's ⁓ Finding those exciting moments in the comm you know that's being the best dad I could be best You know best husband I could be best friend man best wingman I could be to someone that's that's the new mission now right and ⁓ and I sort of had to get over myself a little bit too with this you know like like hey this machine goes on you know like There's two there's gonna be another aircraft takeoff tomorrow right and I'm not gonna be on it. However I'm gonna keep living my life, you know, and just be happy with that, you speaker-0: Yeah, that's so tough, right? think it's so, that's a tough challenge. I'm like, I just don't know. Clearly we can do something better for our veterans, right? Especially as we continue to fight these prolonged wars now or these conflicts. Like since 2001, we've pretty much been fighting somewhere and somewhere around the world. So everybody's coming home or most people are coming home combat vets. That's the universal thing I hear as they leave and they're like, man, I wasn't prepared to walk back into this world. I wasn't quite ready, so I don't know what we could do better. speaker-1: I, yeah, that's a very hard, you know, like you said, 20 something year long question now, right? And it's really hard to answer because like to give someone their purpose and identity back is that that's something that, you know, God can do, right? But it's sort of hard for us to do that for each other, you know, anything outside of like, you know, maybe getting us a somewhat related job, like I sort of walked into, but yeah, that's a hard question to answer. And I don't know the the truthful answer to that yet, there's hopefully we just keep digging until we find it, you know. speaker-0: What about this answer? What about this answer? What if somebody out there is listening and they're gonna walk away in the next week, year, month? What advice would you give them? Maybe your advice is what they need. What would you share with that person if they're about to walk out? speaker-1: I would say like, know, wear your emotions on your shoulder like they say, you know, if you got something going on, communicate that to your, your same brothers and sisters you worked with, right? Like, um, you know, I tell people there's an acronym sort of I use, it's called aviate navigate, communicate, you know, like, so, first make sure you're, you're, you're keeping control, right? You're steady flight, right? You know, navigate, it's good to know where you come from, but really it's more important to know where you're going, right? Cause you can't, if I look back, I'm lost, bro, you know, and then communicate if someone doesn't know. you know, what's going on and they can't help you. So I would say that. speaker-0: Dude, I love that, right? that's, it's like what I use an analogy a lot of is if we don't know where the hell we're going, it's like being on a road trip. You're just in your car, you're driving fast, you're burning gas, but you don't know where you're headed. And I think that's so good. And I like what you said there, right? Cause we can use the same strategies we enjoyed in the service that helped us align mission and purpose. We can apply them to our lives if we just see it, right? If we just take a minute and reflect on like, wait, My mission is now me. It's my family. speaker-1: Yeah, so that's a very good point. You know, what's the old saying, know thyself, right? Until you have that sort of man in the mirror discussion, you don't really know yourself, you know what mean? And you find out a lot about yourself through prayer and then through trials, sort what you were saying earlier, right? And you know, like I was getting at too, is like, if I didn't have any scars or hiccups on the way, ⁓ who would want to read a book about that, right? There's something beautiful about perseverance, speaker-0: Alright, let me talk to you. I love that right because I shared that all the time too is I call it turning the chapter in your life, right? yeah, if I told you hey Anthony I had this life and I did this really hard thing and I showed up and went perfect and I learned nothing you'd be like dude That's boring as hell. they tell me when you fell down. let me ask you this Anthony When did you or how did you find the ability to give yourself grace? to move past the bottle and the pills instead of holding onto it and being like, I'm mad at myself, like going, wait, I can be better. How did you find yourself? How did you find that grace to allow yourself to flip the page and move on? speaker-1: You know, so that man, I'm so glad you asked this. I don't hardly ever talk about this and I should talk about it more. But there was a point in this the same year where I lost my left lung, apparently I seem to die for him. And, know, I was feeling sorry for myself. I was mad at God, you know, and I was asking God, why does you like, you know, bad things happen to good people? The age old question. And, you know, I talked to a pastor about it he's like, listen, Anthony, he's like, life circumstances can make you bitter or better. The choice is yours. You know, and I knew at that point that I'm not gonna choose bitter. I refuse to be mad and sad all the time and lick my wounds right. Like I wanna get better. Each and every day that's a different task, you know? speaker-0: Yeah, dude. I love that, man. And I love when we have honest moments with ourselves, right? When we don't just go to the mirror and be like, oh, I got it all together today. Like, I'm perfect. And we're like, no, I'm flawed. I'm hurting. I'm struggling. And I can be better. What was that conversation like for yourself when you were like, OK, no more booze, no more pills. I'm gonna be better. What was that like? What'd you tell yourself? speaker-1: It was just facing that fact and admitting to myself, right? It was the first 12 step of recognizing I have a problem, right? I was a raging alcoholic, right? Like facing that demon, you know? That's the thing about demons in the night, They'll go away if you realize you've turned around and faced them, right? And I would be lying, Jared, if I didn't tell you there wasn't a spiritual side to this healing. ⁓ I'd realized too, yes, I went to see a psychologist and I had great friends, all that's great, but I turned to everything, including the bottle and pills, like you said. except for God, you know? And what he did for me in that moment, getting better was really, I realized at that point being in isolation with my thoughts, with my self accountability, and then he gave me elevation, you So definitely that isolation before elevation is what I like to tell people. speaker-0: So talk to me about writing that book, right? Was there a chapter or a moment that you wrote that was just the hardest to put on paper where you're like, man, this is getting me? speaker-1: Yeah, I would definitely say that the CASAVAC part, know, I think in aviating or in any job really, it's not what you do, it's what you don't do that haunts you. It was June 8th, 2018 and we were in East Africa and I tell people we saw the best side of combat search and rescue because that's the whole mission that others may live right. We saved five guys, then one American, one Eagle, when he got back to the operating table, unfortunately passed away. And that was just everything that comes with that, the senses and then the realization that someone gave their all, right? I didn't know what sacrifice was to that day. One of the Air Force Corps values is service before self. And I'll be honest, I didn't know what that was to that day. And you realize that's someone's brother, someone's son, someone's friend. it definitely sticks with you all to say that. speaker-0: you Yeah, dude. Yeah, I'll never forget that, right? I'll never forget when I deployed two C-141s, collided midair and crashed. And we got sent out for search and rescue and just finding. Now wasn't the bodies that got to me, man, but what I'll still never forget finding the wallet out in the field and it was open and you could just see the pictures of his family and stuff staring at you and being like, man, like these, he's never gonna be there again. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think that's definitely the five cents part of it. I remember there was a point where I was checking the aircraft for bullet holes. And I go back to the front of the aircraft and I see the aircraft commander, the head pilot, and he didn't have to say anything. I just knew through his face what had happened. And then I hear on the radio, one of the maintenance guys, I didn't know what this term meant. A car wash was code for there's blood and guts in the cabin, stuff like that. had to clean it up ⁓ to be sanitary, stuff like that. I lost it when I heard that, bro. You know? That was very hard to put in that book. speaker-0: How did you allow yourself to move past it? Because that wasn't the end of your mission, right? You just don't get to go home. You still got to clean the plane. You got to get ready because there's going be somebody else that's counting on you. How did you balance the two of grieving and understanding, like, man, this is heavy, but also preparing to go back out? speaker-1: Yeah, I would say I had to sort of turn into like a robot a little bit, man, you know, and take the emotions out of this combat for now. And that's, you can't always do that. It's always in the back of your mind, right? Especially after it happens. But like, I had to turn that switch off, you know, just the feeling that I had that day, you know, just to remember that, you know, now know what the cost of freedom is. You know, I got to witness that and how does this not happen again? You know, I want to be the guy to make sure this doesn't happen again, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, and it's that switch that gets us in trouble. If we can't, if we don't realize we're constantly flipping it on and building up these barriers to all the emotions we have, so we can stay on the mission, which you have to do, right? You have to do that in certain frames, but then other times you got to be able to get past that. And how is writing that book been impacting you moving past and moving forward? speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah, I would definitely say helping is healing, know, like, see a lot of the, like the texts and the emails and the phone calls from people I used to work with right now, the same, you know, loss of identity, the same dealing with ⁓ traumatic events, you know, it's, it's all very common, you know, and you realize, like, if someone person gets help from reading this book, right, that that's a blessing, that's a win, you know, and it's, like I said, we're all very normal men and women, it's not if it's when this sort of thing happens, right. ⁓ That's how you face it, man, is you pay it forward. And I tell people when you bleed it out on the page, you feel a lot better, you know? speaker-0: What was that process like of writing for you? did you decide to write the book and what fears did you have to face in putting it together? speaker-1: Yeah, no problem. it first sort of came to my head, I guess, when I was getting the therapy, the prolonged exposure. And part of that process was you're writing it out, right? And then, so I had at least the bad part, right? Like everything on paper, you know, and then I had a memory, right? And then my psychiatrist was like, should tell the story like a hundred times, bro. And I was like, no, no, no, right? And when I got out, you know, and I craved that bottle, like, man, like, I was like, you know, I'm gonna write, man. I'm gonna write about all of this, you know? And if... If one person sees us and gets help, if you have one cell, right, you have to think that that person may have maybe just maybe took something good away from your book and decided to get better. Yeah. And then, yeah. And it was a, it was about a pen, the paper, the book in hand, like seven months. And to be honest with you, it is a very short read. like two hours. And once I had at least what I thought was enough for a book, man, I reached out on LinkedIn to a, a war journalist named Holly McKay. speaker-0: Yeah, what? speaker-1: I sort of talked to her on the phone after that and her sort of my idea of the way I wanted to go with the book. And she said, yeah, I'll do it. You know, and basically there was a word document back and forth, right? Hey, what do you really mean by this? And, you know, what is this talking about? Cause you know how military and jargon and acronyms it's, I had to find a way to get that out there and playing, playing text, right? And she definitely did a good job of pulling the hard parts and the loud parts out loud for me. And then she recommended a publisher, Robbie Grayson, who did the, you know, the hardware of the book. I'm glad I did, man. It was an awesome process and it's all worth the emails and texts you get from that. speaker-0: What did you learn about yourself in that process, Anthony? speaker-1: I learned that I could be vulnerable. I learned that it's okay to be vulnerable. You know, I think that, you know, it's when you, when you keep stuff like that down, right? Those demons, like they're going to grow like a cancer, bro. Like it's you till you give them air and we bring them to light there, you know, then they'll die, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, what would you? So now you got a little you got a daughter, right? What do you hope she understands about your story someday? speaker-1: I would say that I persevered, I didn't quit. I didn't give up on life and I decided to be the best man I could be for her mom and her. to make sure that she wanted to live a life boldly, with audacity and tenacity and that it's all part of the experience. speaker-0: So now, so you're working through this, you got your book out, your impact to people. So what does peace look like for you now, Anthony? What does peace feel like to you? speaker-1: I just honestly I love the nine to five part of it you know as boring as that sounds like I love being able to go into work to do a simulator and I still get to see some of the same men and women I used to fly with and it's awesome when that happens and then then go home at end of the day right and the date the sun's still up and seeing my hug and my daughter and my wife you know it's sort of hard to put in words but it is those exciting moments in the calm that keeps you going you know speaker-0: Yeah, and I think what I love hearing about that, Anthony, is you got an appreciation for the routine. Oh, yeah. Right. Those moments that are easy to skip past because we've got something else to do or somewhere else to be. They mean more. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, yeah, I think that, you know, the most valuable thing in the world and sort of what you asked earlier is time, right? That's the biggest thing you could give someone. And what's awesome about now is I can be present, right? I could be in my daughter's life, you know, and that is, like I said, my biggest mission now and my really only mission, you know. speaker-0: Yeah. And I love that you're using your voice to bring awareness and honest conversations around mental health for our military and veteran communities. made you step into that role? And when did you realize, like, I want to say almost you had a responsibility to use your voice to help others. When did you realize that? speaker-1: You know, I did, honestly at one point, I started counting all the men that I knew that unfortunately took their lives, man. And I can either sit on the sidelines again, or I can get in a fight for this and make a difference. There has been 3 a.m. phone calls where you talk someone off a ledge. Those conversations have to happen. That's how you prevent it. And I would say the biggest realization is it's so common. Like this is so common like between first responders and military, right? And it's not often if it's when. And I tell people, man, like one of my favorite quotes is like, I heard the other day, it's like, know, God will put you back together in front of those who broke you. And I like to say God will put you back together in front of what broke you, you know, whatever demon, whatever advice, whatever trauma that is, he's got it. speaker-0: So what you said something interesting there these conversations need to have need to happen. So what do you think? What are those conversations? We're still missing right because you're absolutely right when more veterans and you know and law enforcement specifically More cops kill themselves and then are killed by any bad guys on the street around the country yet All of our training is towards external threats and the biggest one still internal. So what conversations you think we're not having? speaker-1: would say there's still a little bit of stigma there. It has gotten better, don't get me wrong, as far as seeking mental health in these type of professions, right? Like, I don't know if you guys have like a do not arm order you can get from your superiors or something like that, right? But like for a ground guy in the military, it'd like they can't carry a weapon. And as a flyer, as an aviator, we call it de niff, duties not to include flying. And no one wants to hear that from their commander or whoever says that, right? But at the same time, man, if... conversation needs to be had is like if you're not healthy then you're more dangerous that way you know then then people's lives you know you have to be able to trust each other with your best friend's life right and and if you can't mentally or spiritually do that at the moment then you're a threat yourself at that point you know so definitely the hard conversation to have you know speaker-0: What about this? Let me throw this out at you Anthony, because I agree with what you're saying and yeah I think we're getting better. I don't think we're anywhere near where we need to be in any of these fields. But what about this, right? You tell me, you tell me I'm allowed to go talk to somebody. I'm allowed to not be good today. And then I get a do not arm letter or in law enforcement, civilian law enforcement called not fit for duty. So now I'm not fit for duty. So I get pulled to a assignment where I don't interact with the public. I'm not armed. I'm just doing like reports and basic stuff because I sought help. But then the same people that told me to do that talk shit about me or tease me about it. And when I come back, I carry the stigma of, he wasn't good last week, so we got to keep an on him, right? I mean, I think that sometimes we're our own barriers to people getting help because we don't allow them to get help and then have a clean slate when they come back. We don't give them the grace to acknowledge the courage it took to get the help. You almost hold it against them. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think, ⁓ you know, there's different types of leaders, right? And all this is really leadership management type, you know, problems at this point. And like, I think that what I look for in a leader, right, is empathy, you know, and I tell people, empathy is the cornerstone of respect and trust, you know, and maybe with empathy, right, like you wouldn't... Tell that guy that, know, okay, he went to seek help. He's human. He's normal, right? Like, yeah, for those people in those spots, whoever that may be to realize that it's not if it's when this has to happen sometimes, and it's all part of it, you know, some downtime, but like you, I would hate to tell someone they couldn't do their job, but you know, like I would hate to face that or get told that, you know, and when it happens, is, you know, embarrassing and, know, you wonder what people say and stuff like that, but it definitely, whoever holds that, you know, that crown needs to realize that and Maybe not go for the jugger right off the bat and just take someone's weapon away, right? Let him keep doing the miss but. speaker-0: Yeah, I don't know. I'm torn on that. A lot of times the issues that cause us, the way we're treated that keeps us from seeking the help we say we need or we think we need isn't our bosses, it's not the generals, it's not the chief, it's the men and women right alongside of us that don't give each other grace. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, and I think with anybody that would talk like, you know, shit about somebody getting help on the like the like your tactical level, right? Like, like, would you really want to fight beside that person anyway? Right? Would you want to call them friend anyway? You know what I mean? Like if they're to talk shit for you to better yourself. So yeah, so that that should never happen. You know, like, like somebody you call your brother, they should never do that. You know, and if they're doing that, then how you fix that, I don't know, to be honest with you, but speaker-0: I think you're right, man. I think you got to look at the circle of influence you have, right? Like, man, you're supposed to be my friend. Like, we're supposed to be willing to die for each other. And you can't give me grace here and I can't give you grace. think it starts with kind like you were talking about, it starts with looking in a mirror at ourselves. Are we modeling the behavior we want? Are we allowing people around us to get help and still lift them up and have honest conversations? And that's one of the things I always try to share, Anthony, is like, don't wait for nobody else to be the change you think needs to happen. Like it starts with us. Right? And that's why I love about what you're doing. It starts with your book. starts with your conversation. It starts about your relationship with your wife and your daughter. Nobody's going to fix that. But you just like your dad said back in the mountains, right? Nobody's coming to fix that. speaker-1: Yeah, man, I love how you tied it together and I never really looked at that that light to be honest with you, man. But you're right, man, it is an internal dialogue and it all starts with those three words, know that self, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, and you know, man, not everybody gets to be inside your fence, Anthony. Not everybody deserves a seat at your table. I like that analogy, right? They gotta earn that. And I think sometimes, sometimes we let people in our table that don't deserve to be there no more. And sometimes that person that don't deserve to be there is us. Because we're letting ourselves down. speaker-1: Yeah, that's a hard thing to do too. you know, if I couldn't imagine like seeking help and someone bashing me for it, right. And I was lucky enough to where I had, you know, my four quarters encouraged me, including my family, right. But yeah, I don't, I don't know how you keep like, you wouldn't know someone's going to say something like that until they say it, right. Or maybe your friend told you they said it, but when that happens, you got to cut that fat, right. You got to cut that cancer out of your life, man, you know. speaker-0: think it starts, well hopefully, some of it starts with us having conversations like this and people listening go, wait, you know what? Am I treating somebody like that? Let me check that. Let me be honest with myself. Am I treating somebody poorly? Or am I allowing people to treat me poorly and how do I fix that? But I think that the first step is just what you're doing, my friend, and that is sharing the story, getting it out there, and letting people know that they're not alone. Like everybody's going through something. speaker-1: Yeah, I definitely think it's like I said, it's not if it's when we're, know, that conversation is going to have happen with yourself, you know. And there is the 22 a day we always talk about, right? And even one a day is too much. And I hope one day as nation, at least, like we, you know, we get our veterans and first responders the help they need with no reprisal or whatever the word is for that. You know what mean? speaker-0: 100 % like when when I watch what we spend on things around the world and our veterans still have to go through a Ridiculous process to get help. It just blows my mind what we're doing But let me ask you this Anthony is you think about the next chapter in your life What's moving you forward? What's what's like that magnetic pull that's guiding you like man? I'm heading to this spot speaker-1: Yeah, to be honest with this podcast thing is sort of addictive, man. And I know I mentioned earlier, I sort of, I made myself do this, right? Like I made myself get out in the open and it started with a book then talking on air, right? And I don't know, I just love sharing a common message with people that I know they're struggling with the same thing. And I think God gives us all, you know, every collision happens for a reason, right? It's not a coincidence. And I think God makes these sort of things happen to to spread some light in the world, be the light in someone's day. speaker-0: Yeah, so you think about podcasting or what? speaker-1: It's crossed my mind, but I definitely want to, what I really love to do is try the book to film thing. And I'm doing this other thing called a operations song where like they pair you with a country music artist and you write a song. the guy I reached out to, this is probably the second time I've ever talked about this man. His name's Matt Stillwell, but he's country music singer. And ironically, his mom was my third grade teacher. And so he agreed to do it. And yeah, he let me hear a taste of the song the other day and I loved it, man. He's a talented dude. And you sort of see these words that everything You know my favorite words perseverance, you know, I talked about it in the book there and you see that come out in the music man That's that's awesome feeling man speaker-0: Dude good for you so you're writing some country songs, Anthony. You didn't have that in your bio, dude. Songwriting. speaker-1: Yeah, this is very, pretty fresh. He read the book and he's putting the words in the song and I don't have a musical bone in my body, but awesome experience so far. speaker-0: I love it man. Good for you for like doing things man and ⁓ Thanks, bro. Yeah, man. It's ⁓ I appreciate your time and getting to share the stories with you and learn from you Where can our audience follow you? Where can they get a book? speaker-1: Yeah, so my Instagram page is ⁓ all lowercase Marco underscore Brello to one and then as far as books If you look up moon child the roots and wings of a US Air Force combat special missions aviators on Amazon Barnes and Noble as well as trademarker media speaker-0: And sales are going good for you. speaker-1: Yeah, it's a pretty good a lot better than to be honest with you. I was expecting that first. Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna keep digging man. I keep getting it out there so speaker-0: I love it. As I get ready to wrap up with you today, Anthony, when you look at the man you are today, what are you most proud of? speaker-1: I would say that, you know, I'm gonna tell this story with my first flight on the AC-130 Gunship, right, if I can. So my first flight, man, it went so bad to where the instructor said something to the effect of, you're the reason I have to bring seat belts on airliners. And, you know, it went that bad, right? So towards the end of this flight, man, he asked me, he saw me licking my wounds, feeling sorry for myself, right? And he's like, what's the most important word in the dictionary? And I was like, I don't know, I don't even know where I'm at right now. And he said, perseverance. And he's like, I want you to... about what that word means to you, show up next flight ready to fight. And after you told me that man, that's the ignition I needed. And I would say, you know, I'm proud of the fact that I just didn't lay down, I, you know, I didn't take my own life, that I didn't keep drinking, that I decided to choose a better over bitter. speaker-0: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, that's what I want the community to take, right? Is like, the guy gave you one, like one little thing, and I bet that that guy's probably used that same line on students over and over. It has no idea the impact it made on you. And that's the thing for us. Like, when we take time to invest in somebody else, we don't know the impact we'll create for them. speaker-1: Yeah, I've actually talked to him too. I think he was the first one to leave me a review on my Amazon page. I got to talk to him and he's like, man, it really put you back in aircraft. He loved that I put it in there, but I ⁓ never asked him how many times he used it because I sort of wanted it to be like a special moment. A special moment God put in my life for a reason. speaker-0: Yeah, no, I love it as if for someone is listening today, Anthony Feels like they're in their own Valley Right now there's maybe struggling to get up and get moving. What would you want them to hear from you? speaker-1: I would say that in these situations, especially with flying, everything can be going against you. The emergency procedures, the weather, the communications, the threats. In those moments, man, you don't get to fall, man. You get to rise, man. And that's sort of why I chose the moon. On the darkest nights, that's when it burns the brightest. And Henry Ford once said that no matter what you're going through, through trials, everything troubles that an aircraft takes off against the wind, not with it. speaker-0: I love it. Anthony, thanks so much for joining us today. It's been an honor to share your story and to learn about you, man. I'm excited to bring this story to light in our community and appreciate what you're doing. And thank you for having the courage to use your voice to impact others. speaker-1: Thank you Jared, it's a real privilege and honor to be here. Like I said, man, I wouldn't miss this for a world. Thank you. speaker-0: When you're training with purpose, your fueling can't be an afterthought. That's why I use NeverSecond, the simplest, most reliable system I have found for staying energized, hydrated, and steady through their long efforts. Their C-Series carbs take the guesswork out of performance. No stomach drama, no complicated mixing, just clean, consistent fuel that actually works when the miles get long. If you want to train with more intention and recover without feeling wrecked, check out NeverSecond. Click the link in the show notes to get dialed. And remember team, life is far too short to live any other way than on purpose. We'll see you all again next week.