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Forgiveness Without Reconciliation: Grief, Addiction & Finding Freedom with Heather Mylan-Mains · Rooted & Real With Keenan

• Keenan: All right. So Heather, thank you so much for being here coming all the way from Iowa. Welcome back to Rue and Real with Keenan. This is the podcast where we have honest conversations about mental health, relationships, and what it means to become emotionally healthy and spiritually grounded. So today, this conversation is about forgiveness, but not the shallow version of forgiveness that tells people to ignore their pain, excuse harmful behavior, or pretend that everything is okay. My guest, Heather Milan Maines. Has walked through experiences that many people would would struggle, even to put into words. She has navigated divorce, painful relationships, her late husband's alcoholism, and death by suicide, and the loss of her mother to dementia. For years, Heather carried anger, resentment, grief, and loneliness, and eventually made a decision to soften her heart. Not because of what happened, not because of what happened was acceptable, but because she no longer wanted the pain to determine the rest of her story. you. Heather, what is your story? How did you become who you are today? And like every good story, it's good to start from the beginning. So what's the story? heather: ⁓ my goodness. ⁓ Well, I am an Iowa native, so born and raised and still live in Iowa. And grew up and had a family like everyone does. And my parents divorced which was my first chance to learn about forgiveness. Had a few marriages, both of them in between. I got married young. ⁓ I went to in Des Moines. I went to graduate school in Des Moines. Keenan: Okay. Through therapy, 12-step recovery principles, gratitude, and a relationship with God, Heather began learning that forgiveness is not a single emotional moment. It is a difficult, intentional journey towards freedom. She's a speaker and an author of Unwrapping Forgiveness, The Gift of Mercy and Grace, which combines her personal story, her faith, and practical seven step framework for moving from pain towards peace. Heather, welcome to Root and Real. heather: I was a single mom in Des Moines through that experience had lots of hard lessons to learn. Getting divorced is not easy, ⁓ certainly hard. And married a man who I loved very much ⁓ and realize it that he had a drinking problem and he had a lot of mental health issues. That marriage was ⁓ beautiful and hard and ended in his death by suicide. That was ⁓ Keenan: Mm. With Ken. Yeah. Mm. heather: probably sixteen years ago now. So that that was a hard experience. In the middle of that experience I had a traumatic head injury. My sweet son, he was a Boy Scout called 911 saved my life, for sure. ⁓ it was it was my husband's 30 day sobriety the night I fell down my basement stairs and had a freak accident and was brain injured for sure. Miraculously healed ⁓ so grateful for every day since then and Keenan: Wow. ⁓ my goodness. So Now heather: I had another marriage and that needed to end. My mother was sick with dementia. I was a caretaker with some siblings and that is wow. That's a hard Keenan: Okay. Yeah. For sure. heather: And in the middle of all that, life happens. Life lights and lots of hard things to learn to forgive. And it drew me to a point where ⁓ I I've a lot of time in therapy. Can can you tell? Does it ⁓ I've had had people ask me if I'm as happy as I pretend to be, which is kind of funny to me because I'm not pretending, but Keenan: Okay. Yeah. heather: I have had a lot of opportunities to help have people help me through some of the hard things and I am just getting ready to publish a book on forgiveness and how like my hard parts of my journey and and how there's light to be had in the midst of hard. Yeah. Keenan: For sure. So forgiveness seems to be a like a like a recurring event or at least a recurring thing in your story. Like how complicated it I mean, this seems like it's so hard to forgive these days. And even people have this idea of what forgiveness is. So if I were to ask you, Heather, someone's hearing this, how would you describe forgiveness? heather: Forgiveness is is a an act of love for yourself. And I think there's a lot of misunderstandings that what forgiv what forgiveness is, what forgiveness means. Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. Forgiveness means in my faith system acknowledgement that my Savior Jesus Christ has already paid the price for all the pain, the hard, all wrong that I do, someone else does. Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. heather: And the forgiveness process is an acknowledgement that I'm working with him and I'm giving him that pain and releasing myself. it is not Keenan: Yeah. Right. heather: But it is worth it. Keenan: sure. heather: it it's such an interesting journey because part of my journey had to do with dealing with addiction and I wasn't addicted to substance but I lived with someone who was. And through that journey the twelve steps played a really important role in my life and although the practice of the twelve steps steps is God as you understand him. Now for me that is Jesus Christ and I understand that in his Keenan: Mm. Absolutely. heather: Journey here on life. And he plays every part because it is through that relationship and that trust that I'm able to give these hard feelings and hard experiences over to him saying that's not mine to carry. Keenan: Yeah. Absolutely, for sure. So I mean, you know, to talk about us the process of like in the beginning, back when you were the woman that carried like the most anger, the most resentment, grief and loneliness. And what has that process been to get you to where like you are now? And what was something people that was going on inside of you internally that people could not see? heather: I well, it's interesting because as I reflected, as I started to write this and really write and reflect on who I was into my my childhood, my teens, my twenties, into my thirties a little bit, was a very angry person, but I ⁓ it and many people mask it. I was super sarcastic, I was very funny. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Sure. heather: I was able to project pain to other people so that I would somehow feel better for a minute. And I was the smartest person. I always had to have the last word. There were just a lot of really destructive behaviors that in our world today are pretty accepted. And and we acknowledge that that's okay. And through therapy and through some other experiences, I actually had therapists say Heather. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. heather: Yeah, sarcasm is to tear flesh. And it is a defense mechanism and we use it really well when we're in situations where we felt harm. And it and it's funny. It's it can be quite funny. I still laugh at things that are sarcastic. Sometimes I still am pretty sarcastic. And we laugh as a society. We think it's funny and it is and harmful. And I didn't know that for the longest time. Keenan: Right. Yeah. heather: Until I started to get some help and to learn and and to study. And so forgiveness it's one of my favorite books is a classic. It's The Count of Monte Cristo. And if you have not read The Count of Monte Cristo, and there's a movie, so in case you haven't read it, you can watch some there's several movie versions. is a story of a man who's wronged terribly and he spends time in prison and he has a long time to plot, read. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. heather: And the book talks about the way that he goes about creating that revenge. And it is a masterful, long thought-out plan of how this happens. And I still it's still a well-written book, and it doesn't really heal his heart. He's still angry throughout the whole thing, even though he's gotten revenge about all these people who hurt hurt him. And it is through understanding things like that where I realize that's not the true source of happiness. Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. heather: And to trust that Jesus Christ, He will right all the wrong. in one way or another. Maybe not the way we think it needs to happen. But it's not our job to do that. And so forgiveness was part of that was to let that go. Just say, I got tired of being angry. I got tired of being sad. And I eventually just said, I'm done. I don't want to feel this way anymore. And and in the twelve steps, you know, the first step is to admit that you're powerless. Keenan: Mm. Right. Absolutely. heather: And so part of part of mine was I am powerless over these feelings, I am powerless over this behavior, and I just don't want to hurt Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. So I mean, know, ⁓ through that like, I what did that look like while you were going through the twelve steps or just the forgiveness process? Was it a of, you know, two steps forward, one step back? Like, what did that look like through that? heather: ⁓ yes, yes. the first day I showed up at an Al Anon meeting, I I I read about this even in my book. I was so hysterical. I was I didn't I couldn't believe I'd been married to this man for a year, I had no idea he even had a drink and then he's not just someone who drinks, he's someone who has alcohol and abuses it to the point he passes out and Keenan: Hmm. Hm. heather: can't function his job and all these things and I just was so upset. I was ugly crying, sobbing because I didn't feel like it was fair that I was there and that I was dealing with this and I did not know what to do. So those feelings were very, very tender and very, very ⁓ towards the surface and I I I'm a I'm good to be able to cry and acknowledge I needed help. So it started with just this is such a huge mess. I don't know. Keenan: Yeah yeah. heather: What? Now earlier than that I had gone through some forgiveness journeys with my father that were hard as well, but it was another situation where I just I was tired of being sad. I was tired of being upset and I I somehow I now know is probably through the grace of God I had the courage to have a conversation and my dad pretty much ignored what I had to say and I was I was in college, I was young in the early twenties and I shared these all Keenan: Yeah. heather: all these hard feelings that I've been holding on to so tightly that it made me so angry and so strong and so you can't hurt me but I was really hurt. And so experiences of of acknowledging I am just this isn't good and I don't want to feel this way anymore w it was the start ⁓ how I could forgive. And there were so many times cried and prayed and just couldn't focus on anything else other than being hurt or being angry or maybe calling my friends and just complaining. I don't know if you've ever done that with people. ⁓ just woe is me, my life is so hard. Just feel sorry for me. Lots of that. And I finally just had enough and said I really need to deal with this. And the twelve steps were really part of that ⁓ that journey. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. heather: I put a framework to working through a program to help take care of myself and to acknowledge that I am in charge of how I react. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yes, Yeah. ⁓ heather: Always I can't blame someone. I can't say you made me do it. I can't say quit making me sad because I own all of that. Keenan: Right. So I wanna ask about ⁓ you mentioned like s sharing these feelings with your father and they were dismissed by him. Like so many people, at least in my line of work, like as a therapist, that's like something people talk about is ⁓ don't wanna share those feelings because they'll be rejecting. I don't wanna do that. So I mean, you actually went through that process. And so w I guess what was that like for you to experience that dismissal, but also what came out of that for you? heather: It was it was a pivotal i importance and I would say this is true rel one of the things I'd like to talk about professionally is crucial conversations. That's a great book. One I'd highly recommend to have conversations with people that are challenging. And I had that conversation without even that training ⁓ so many years ago. I know that was for my development. Keenan: Mm-hmm. heather: And it caused a detachment. It caused a detachment that I could I could separate. Here's this person who is my father, absent most of the time in my life in many ways. gave him the that he needed to make a change. Keenan: Yeah. Mm. heather: I had to respect that he didn't want Keenan: Hm. Yeah. heather: And I had to respect that he now has this information what he chooses to do with it is his responsibility. What I choose to do with it is my responsibility. And led to many years not complete but definitely a distant relationship. And that continued for many, many, many years. ⁓ Keenan: Yeah. heather: And it was necessary. It was hurtful. Of course it hurts. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I think heather: But it was it was the outcome that that I guess everyone everyone has their choice and their I have to respect that. That's another thing that the twelve subs teaches me very specifically is cannot control another human being. Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. Right? heather: And I want to. Gosh, I want to, which is why I still go to twelve step programs. And it's so unhealthy. But there's a lot of that in our society. We feel like like we can make somebody do something. And unless you've got a little tiny toddler that you can still hold on to and really direct, there's no making anyone do anything. And even then, those little toddlers, you know, you've got little ones. They have the mind of their own. Thank heavens. Keenan: Yeah. Mm. Right. Yes, sure. So I mean, I do I actually appreciate you saying like you had to respect the decision that he made and you have to respect the decision that you made for yourself. Like 'cause sometimes like just kind of accepting the reality that we're in. And so I you know, like I think a lot of people can hear that and appreciate that because it's it's just kind of what the w world that's the reality of it is like You can't control people like you said, and that's a an example of it. But you can control you. heather: I can't and I love ⁓ Mel Robins her let them theory is so applicable to this concept. People will behave badly. Let them because being angry or upset about how what someone does or says, I feel like you you have the responsibility to give them the feedback, hey this hurts. Keenan: Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. hundred percent. heather: And they have the responsibility to hopefully acknowledge, make the change. But sometimes there could be no feedback and there could be no change. And of course it's hurtful. It it's it's part of the broken heart that I carried for so long. And there's still parts on occasion where it might re s it could surface again. You're like, ⁓ thought I was done with this, but nope, there's a little tiny part here that I still need to Keenan: Yeah. heather: give over to God and say, Please take this because it's too hard and too heavy for me to carry. Keenan: Right. Yeah. And even, you know, if there's no response them, that is a response. ⁓ ⁓ a is the response, whether they do anything or not. ⁓ and that's like Yeah. heather: It is yeah. I know. And it's so hurtful. It I I I re I remember vaguely just the moment I can see like where I was standing, where we were having a conversation, how the circumstances of it and it just I couldn't reconcile and I'm I'm an analyst by training and trade, so I'm a very logical, reasonable thinker, ⁓ professionally and I could not understand How someone could hear that they had hurt someone so much and there was no acknowledgement I'm sorry. Keenan: Mm. heather: I didn't mean for you to feel that way. Or you know, as a father you would hope that he would embrace you and say, ⁓ I'm so sorry that you were hurt. That was never what I meant and and to have it just be nothing, pretty devastating. Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. I mean heather: But then that was his re that was his responsibility. I had done my job in sharing the information and it was really hard to accept, but story has so much accepting things I cannot change. Keenan: Yep. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, something you've mentioned, things that, you know, we can't change. and I wanna be real careful here, but you mentioned your husband's alcoholism and his Like, kind of walk us through what that's like to ⁓ just love who's so deeply affected by their addiction. ⁓ in their mental mental health struggles. I mean, what's that like for you to be a wife to that? heather: It was it was lonely, it was confusing, it it was a lot of Keenan: Mm. heather: really working through detaching and and accepting and acknowledging him for who he was. We used to say they used to say things like, I really wish the good Jeff could stay. Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. heather: is there's with people who are addicts my experience and others I've heard are very much of a roller coaster which I personally love roller coasters. ⁓ don't like living an emotional one but ⁓ highs, extreme lows ⁓ really, hard things to work through and the Keenan: Yeah. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yes. heather: the situation that people find themselves in, of course I will cry because sixteen years I'm still crying. ⁓ not every day, but some days. It is it is a really hard space, but I can't if if anyone listening is living with an addict, I could not give you the any better advice than to find an L on meeting. And I mean that in all sincerity because you learn how to ⁓ Keenan: Mm. heather: Manage yourself so that you can stay healthy. I think one of the things I didn't realize is how sick I had become and trying to control and manage somebody else's behavior, which is absolutely insane and exhausting because my own behavior is enough to to try to manage. we had been separated physically, Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. heather: Due to his behaviour. I just I had I put a boundary. I said, You are not behaving well and it ⁓ I had, you know, my children were his stepchildren. I said, You can't live here. I I love you and I don't want a divorce, but you can't live here right now. You need to work on you. And the day that it actually happened, it was I was working as a contractor in my work and I only got paid when I was there ⁓ and I been getting calls all week. Keenan: Right. heather: And it was the week of Thanksgiving, which is a very hard time for people that suffer with addiction holidays. they many friends and colleagues had been calling me. He happened to be a lawyer, ⁓ and got a call from someone that says, Hey Heather, ⁓ judges are calling looking for him, which was pretty unusual. Yeah, I had called and checked on him several days that week, but it was normal when I say that. Keenan: Mm. heather: No it's not normal, but it was normal for our relationship for him not to respond to me. Very hard, very hurtful, very very much couldn't make sense of it, but that's just what it was. So but I didn't hear from him from days. I didn't think much about it. I'd gone about my day and my work and my life and the that I had to go check on him, I had to do a well check and call the police and they went to his apartment and ⁓ I said, What's going on? He said, ⁓ he's in there. I Well tell him to get dressed and get up here. Keenan: Mm. heather: And the policeman said, He's gone. And I didn't understand. I I I sat there for a few moments and I I didn't know what to do. And I said, Well, I guess I should cry. What do you do? Yes. And it was ⁓ it was a devastating thing. And and the sad thing was, the saddest part was that he was so perfect. Keenan: Yeah. heather: Like two weeks before I'd been so perfect. And I now know why. Because he had a plan. Keenan: Yeah. Hmm. Wow. Really. heather: And he had he had an out and he was behaving in ways that were so normal aside from the not responding to me for three days. And the reason he wasn't responding to me is because he'd probably already taken his life three days before I found him. Which was really sad. But ⁓ that was hard, of course, and the immediate business of taking care of things was really easy for me because that's what I did. I Keenan: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. heather: tasks. I obviously had to plan a funeral. I had to figure stuff out and I could do the business of that. And it wasn't until years later that I didn't I really was like, hmm, like 'cause I went back to work. I we had a service, we had Thanksgiving. I can't remember what happened at Thanksgiving. I I don't really have a good memory of that one. I mean I'm sure we did something. I had two kids. I I'm sure something happened. ⁓ Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. heather: It was just get back to business because that was easier. Keenan: Right. heather: And the the framework I I came up with of how to forgive, it's an acronym for forgive and the very first part of forgiving is to feel hurt. And I know I skipped years of being hurt 'cause it was easier. Keenan: Hm. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. heather: Feeling the hurt is hard. Keenan: Yes. Yeah. heather: But necessary. necessary. Keenan: For sure. heather: So it was it was not an experience that I wish to share with anyone. I I have a lot of empathy and a lot of understanding. Keenan: Yeah. heather: I had someone ask me if I blamed myself and thankfully I'd had a lot of help with therapy to not play the woulda coulda should've game very much. It still still happens a little bit, but I I knew it was his decision. There wasn't something that I could have done differently or if I would have showed you sometimes I hear people say, Well, if I would have just called. Keenan: Okay. Yeah. Sure. Right. heather: I we don't know, right? I I don't believe a phone call from me would have made it at a different time would have made a difference in his decision. I think he'd been struggling and feeling hard about his career and and now he's missing court and that's a huge problem if you're a lawyer, so really hard things for sure. Keenan: Right. Yeah. So you know you know, following his death, you mentioned going back to work and being really I guess did you feel anything following his death or did it really takes a lot of time? heather: You know what was interesting, the most interesting, ⁓ absence of hope. Because I'd spent so much time hoping for the right medicine, the right doctor, the right sponsor, the right men's group, the right anything. Hoping, hoping, hoping. And I and before he is gone, I was like he is behaving so normally. He's been supportive. Keenan: Mm. Mm. heather: He's been caring then I had no idea that he would take his life. And so the absence of that hope was a great it was like the Grand Canyon. I was like I don't have to worry about him. What am I going to do? Keenan: Right. heather: I had spent a lot of space detaching it helped. I I had had some things that by the grace of God had helped me detach from his spaces and places that were really helpful for me. But it was of course I was sad. I I missed him. I missed the hope. I missed the chance of things being better. I missed the good job. And for a long time I forgot the bad job. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hm. heather: For a long time. Every once in all I need to remind myself, wait a minute. Keenan: Yeah. heather: This wasn't always chocolate and roses. was hard. Keenan: Right. Yeah. For sure. So so you mentioned, you know, going to a meeting, going to therapy, bringing your faith involved. Like how could someone they're hearing this story and they're like, Wow, I can relate to that. Like having a community, how important is that? And what does that look like for somebody? heather: It's for for me for me was critical. I had a friend who I could call any time of the day or night and I did. There would be nights where he was gone and I had no idea where he was. It was two or three in the morning, I'm trying to sleep and I just I couldn't. Having the ability to call someone and just talk about how I was feeling was critically important to me. having a Keenan: Okay. heather: a a faith where I can go and worship with a congregation where I could sit and cry if I needed to just ⁓ feel the hurt that I was feeling and have people show up and ⁓ spend time with me no matter what was also really important. And it was through therapy I had to accept the things I couldn't change. The serenity prayer. I had to accept Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Right. heather: Okay, I can't someone come home. I can't make someone call me back. I can't make someone want to spend time with the family. But ⁓ can choose to spend time with my family. I call people back. ⁓ I go and serve someone else. And it through those acts of service where I was to find peace. Keenan: Mm. Yes. heather: and not be obsessive in my thinking, which ⁓ common. And just say, you know what, Heavenly Father, I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful today. I'm grateful that right now ⁓ spending time with my kids, playing a game, watching a movie, taking a trip, whatever it is. I spent a lot of time on my own with my kids when I was married to him and and it was lonely and hard. Keenan: Right. Hm. heather: But it was necessary to still go forward and not be obsessed with the fact that I didn't have my partner. Keenan: Right. Yeah. So I mean, ⁓ you mentioned therapy. I mean, what kind of blind spots did it at least show for you? What did you discover about yourself through that process? Like important was that in your okay. heather: There are so many really good things that I was able to discover. One, I'm stronger than I knew I was. Keenan: Mm. Okay. heather: I actually have the answers most of the time. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. heather: And I had really some great coping skills. I learned that you know, I was never I ⁓ one of the things I didn't do that I was that surprised people when I showed up at Ham and On, I didn't disguise what was happening. I I think secrets are so sick. ⁓ And didn't ⁓ I didn't have the secrets. I was willing to say, This is what's going on in my life. It's hard. Keenan: Right. heather: Might ask where he was. I said, ⁓ he's probably got the brown bottle flu somewhere, and I would make a joke. So humor was a really good skill for me is to be able to laugh and find the joy in life despite the hard. there was a a man, a co-worker of mine, at visitation, ⁓ and was newer to our team. And he he came to the visitation and he said, Heather, I do not understand. Keenan: Right. Hmm. heather: You came to work every day smiling and joking and laughing. And you were dealing with all of this? Keenan: Wow. Hm. heather: And I said yes, I have a choice and I choose to be happy. pretty powerful. So those are some of the things that I discovered that I could I could still be happy. Keenan: Right. Yeah. For sure. heather: So that was a good lesson. Plus therapy also helped me understand this was his choice. This wasn't mine. that's a priceless gift. I went to a suicide support group shortly after his death. And there was a woman there. And I think her ⁓ her brother had committed suicide. Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. heather: Years, many, many years, and she was in that meeting ⁓ sobbing because she says, I don't understand, I don't know why this happened, and I was so grateful that that wasn't. Keenan: Mm. heather: And the reason that wasn't me is because I had spent time understanding the nature of mental health, the nature of addiction, ⁓ ⁓ able to separate myself as being responsible for him in that space. It was pretty powerful for me. ⁓ Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, just you know, s being able to recognize you know, he made that choice ⁓ then you are not responsible for it. I think that's really like when something like that happens, ⁓ really hard for people to ⁓ know, do the what if stuff like you mentioned earlier, and then not try and blame themselves. ⁓ heather: Yes, and that's another example of of so it's I think the hardest person in my life to forgive is me. And part of the the blame I certainly blame myself for lots of things. I think it's very natural, very human to find shortcomings in ourselves and situations and people and think, ⁓ if I could have just behaved better, if I could have just ⁓ I shouldn't have said that or I wish I hadn't have been that mean or that short in my comments or or whatever whatever we might do it's hard to forgive ourselves ⁓ there are some things I said but but pretty much one of the things that had a powerful impact on me is the 12th step where you make amends. Now I heard that and I thought I am not saying I'm sorry. I am Keenan: Right. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. ⁓ heather: Done doing things need to apologize for. And it sounds very selfish. However, I changed how I spoke to people. I changed how I behaved. Because I didn't want to make amends. ⁓ didn't want to go through that inventory of all the things that I've done that I need to make amends for. I'm like, it is long enough already. I do not need to add to this in my life. And I I really do credit that. Keenan: Hmm. Hm. Yeah. heather: For changing how I interact. And it's been a really good tool because if I do something today and I'm mean, I darn well meant to be, 'cause I know I have to say I'm sorry. Keenan: Rights. Yes. Okay. heather: is not nice. I don't do it very often, but there are times I'm not perfect by any means. Keenan: Sure. Yeah. So you you you developed this seven step framework for forgiveness for your book. How did you like come up with that? And if someone's hearing that for the first time, like what is that? heather: Well, I am so clever. ⁓ It's the word, it's it's the word forgive. And so I thought, all right, I want something that related to the word forgive. ⁓ does this really mean? And and as I spent time brainstorming and really thought about my process, it all fit. It was just, it is beautiful. I love it so much. So the first first one is the feel the hurt. Keenan: Like yeah. ⁓ heather: That's the F and forgive. And I really believe that's where we need to start is you just have to acknowledge this hard thing happened to me. It sucks and it hurts. And you should grieve and really let your heart feel that pain. And don't skip it like I did sometimes. And the O only atonement can heal. So it's Keenan: Mm-hmm. Hm, yes. Mm-hmm. heather: You have to you have to look to God and and He can take over those shortcomings for you. The R is Now I really do believe the twelve steps are guided meditation towards repentance. So like I mentioned that list of people we harmed. We need to repent and you might think, and I thought, I didn't do anything wrong. And most of the time we haven't. When someone does something, it's not because of us, it's because of them. But what I have done is I've been very anxious. Keenan: Mm. heather: Or I've been resentful, I'm holding on to some really hard hurt and I'm denying forgiveness, which is something that I need to repent of. And in my studying of repentance, the Hebrew word that's translated as repent is maybe an unfortunate translation. Because that word is called shoob and it is to return to God. Keenan: Mm. heather: So the repentance is not I'm bad, I'm sinful, I've done something wrong. It's have done something that takes my focus away from Jesus Christ. I need to turn my heart and my mind and my will back to Him, which is I shouldn't be angry, I shouldn't hate, I to be loving people. So repenting is I want to turn back to God and I had I had that to do. I had to turn my life back to God. And ⁓ Then the G is that God is in all parts of our story. Keenan: Mm. Mm. heather: I love the scripture in Thessalonians that says we must thank God in all things. Keenan: Yes, heather: It was rainy here today in my part of the world. People might be upset by that. I said thank you, God, for the rain because I don't need to water my flowers today. That's so great that you are providing that for me today. So even the hard parts, God's there. I think it's easy to forget that. Keenan: Yes. Mm. Absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. heather: So that's the G. The I super important is to invest in gratitude. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Okay. heather: And of all the habits in my life, I think choosing to be grateful. Always has made the biggest difference in changing who I am and how I live and how I feel. And it's a practice. I now wake up every morning and have at least three things I can say out loud, I am thankful for this. I'm grateful for this. I it can be simple. Sometimes it's I'm grateful I know where I put my glasses. Or Keenan: I love that. Yes. Absolutely. heather: I am grateful that I have a bed. grateful that I have a house. I sometimes think What if we woke up the next day only with the things we thanked God for the day before? Keenan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. heather: That one hit. And gratitude. So another another piece of advice is start a gratitude journal, start a gratitude practice. Start start small. I'm grateful I'm breathing today. I'm grateful I have hands. Whatever little thing you can hold on to. It's grateful. The V is to view others as Christ sees them. Keenan: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yes. heather: I can say that during the experience with my late husband and there were some ⁓ hard days. lots of tears, lots of sadness, lots of feeling out of control and just really, really lost. And I was able to find a space to see so it's Keenan: Mm. I love that. Mm-hmm. heather: He was beautiful. I could see him without these defects of character, without this illness. he was beautiful. We ⁓ are beautiful. Keenan: Mm. Yes, sure. Mm-hmm. heather: And we're all children of God. He loves us all. How does he do that? ⁓ my gosh, I have a list of people that are so hard to love. he does. So if I remember that everyone is one of God's children, it's part of that forgiveness journey thing. And then the very last one, the exact reason I'm on this podcast. Keenan: That's for sure. Yeah. Yes, for sure. heather: is enrich our lives through learning and as part of that learning it's our obligation to share and to give back to others. So as I work through these steps I realized ⁓ my gosh this is exactly in my book I talk more specifically about each one of them and some of the exact things I do have done continue to do and it's such a beautiful journey that I just have to share it. Keenan: Hm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that. you know, as we as we're getting closer to the end, a of questions I like to ask. if you know, president of the world came to you, Heather, and was like, Hey, you have one minute to tell everyone what they need to hear. What do you think the people need to hear? Or what would you say? heather: That is such a great question. What do people need to hear? People need to hear that each one of us is capable of more than you ever know. And each one of us is loved more than we'll ever know. Keenan: Mm. Yes. heather: Once you learn to love yourself, you can love others. And that truly is recipe for happiness. True joy is in love. Keenan: Yes. Absolutely. For sure. I love that. That's great. So, you know, a lot of people listening to this, you know, we th we talk about faith, we talk about mental health and counseling. know, someone's listening to this and they're thinking about, you know, I need to get my mental health care, I need to see a therapist, I'm like on the fence about it. Like is something you feel like they need to hear to kind of get them off the fence? ⁓ heather: I am disappointed in our society that has given a stigma that somehow seeking help of a professional Keenan: Mm-hmm. Right. heather: And I would want everyone to realize that it is not a weakness, it is a strength to admit that we need Keenan: Mm. Yes. Absolutely. heather: Part of the part of the 12 steps is to admit you're powerless. Mental health is a complex issue. It is not something that GBT can fix. It is not something that one that worked for someone is going to be the same that worked for you. And people, all of in different areas in our life should seek out experts. Keenan: Oof. Nope. Right. heather: And is a place. Now, I will also say that not every therapist would be the right therapist for you. So it could be could be that you tried therapy and you thought this was not working. Well, could be that the person that you were talking to wasn't the right therapist for you. So don't keep don't stop trying. Keep trying. And and please, please don't feel shame in admitting that you need help. I hope that you ⁓ Keenan: That's true. Right. Right. Right. heather: In addition to a therapist, I hope that you can find a trusted friend or family member that you can share some of your thoughts and feelings and know that most of us, if not all of us, have struggled with something. Whether or not we said it or it is a different thing. therapists make sure that you spend time letting yourself understand that we don't all have it figured out. Your therapist doesn't have it figured out either, but they're there to help guide you and lead you in in things. And in addition to a therapist, you could need the help of a psychiatrist. And medicine comes from God. Keenan: Right. Mm. Absolutely. Yep. heather: ⁓ natures from God. There are I you know, I think one of the things that was super surprising to me when I was dealing with my husband's ⁓ and he had anxiety, ⁓ depression, OCD, probably had borderline personality disorder, so a lot going on there. One of the things that really surprised me with one of the therapists he had is the focus on the simple things. Eating a healthy diet, getting rid of processed foods. Keenan: Mm-hmm. heather: Making sure you go outside, take a walk. Some of those things that are natural that are really hard to do when you don't feel yourself Keenan: Right. Yeah. There's there's like scientific data about like having a good diet and getting that vitamin D from the sun can really affect your mood. ⁓ I love being outside. it's definitely a a huge boost for and a lot of the people that I that I work with and and see. ⁓ heather: Yeah. There's lots of there's lots of things and I I would want people to understand that Even if if someone maybe, maybe someone has been critical, maybe someone has been really harsh with you, I would suspect that they themselves have had struggles and are projecting those feelings onto you of shame in their own feelings. And I would just encourage everyone to just be strong and fight through that and get help anyway. Because the joy on the other side of not feeling that. Keenan: No. heather: It's so worth it. Keenan: Right, for sure. So, you know, wrapping up, you've mentioned a couple books already. You mentioned you're working on your own book. Like any good resources people can look up, podcasts, articles, blogs to dig into more what we talk about. heather: Yeah. ⁓ there are there are a lot of books that have been helpful to me, of course. Scriptures. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. heather: Lots of good things there. I mentioned ⁓ if you need to have hard conversations with people, crucial conversations is a professional book I recommend. I love the book The Four Agreements. That is a simple book that helps us take care of ourselves and and really manage our own feelings and emotional intelligence. I think that another book that I have really enjoyed is The Shack. That is a book that is a yeah, it's a forgiveness Keenan: Mm. Mm. For sure. Mm-hmm. It's a great book. heather: book and really really helpful in and trying to feel better. When my book is published, which should maybe by the time this is airing it will be, ⁓ unwrapping forgiveness a simple framework to how how to forgive. A lot of things about 12 steps in there too. Lots of stuff. Anything Barbara Nee Brown? Anything? Love all her books? Keenan: Yes. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So, you know, how can people find you in and learn more about what you do? heather: Yeah. I have a website, Heathermylenmains dot com. I have a YouTube channel certainly reach out and ⁓ Facebook, Instagram, all that name. It's a bla it's mouthful, the whole thing. ⁓ Keenan: I will I'll put the links in the description at the when it's edited. Yeah. heather: Thank you. Yes, and and I am so grateful to share this time with you, Keenan, and with your listeners and really am hopeful that parts of my story will resonate with yours and anyone else that might be seeking help and and maybe struggling with those hard feelings and that hard heart and I hope it will help. Keenan: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. It de I I think it definitely will. So I really appreciate you sharing everything with us and just being here and being real. All right. Thank you. heather: Yeah, thanks.