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Preserving Open Space & Building Healthier Communities · Healthier Together: Larimer County's Public Health Podcast

0:04
Welcome to Healthier Together, Larimer County's
0:07
public health podcast, where we come together
0:08
for healthier lives, connected communities, and
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real conversations. From your local public health
0:13
team, I'm your host, Tom. And I'm Joanna. Earlier
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this year, the town of Berthoud closed on the
0:18
purchase of 67 acres of land along the Little
0:22
Thompson River, continuing its efforts to preserve
0:25
open space and protect important natural areas.
0:28
We're joined today by town administrator Chris
0:30
Kirk to talk about the purchase, why this particular
0:33
property was important to the town, and the town's
0:36
plans for the land moving forward. Chris, thank
0:39
you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for
0:41
having me. To start, can you just tell us a bit
0:44
about yourself and your role with the Town of
0:46
Berthoud? Sure. As the town administrator, I
0:49
manage the day -to -day operations of the town,
0:51
so I work for the town board, and then I'm responsible
0:53
for hiring and managing the rest of the staff.
0:56
I've been with the Town of Berthoud since January
0:58
of 2018, so a little over eight and a half years
1:00
now, challenging, ever -changing experience.
1:06
The town of Berthoud recently purchased this
1:09
new plot of land along the Little Thompson River.
1:13
Can you just tell us about the land that was
1:15
purchased? Sure. So the 67 acres that you mentioned
1:18
is part of a property that we historically refer
1:21
to as the Wilson Farm. It was purchased by a
1:24
developer, and we purchased a portion of that
1:26
property from the developer. It was part of a...
1:29
GOCO or Greater Outdoors Colorado grant that
1:32
we had previously applied for that actually helped
1:34
to preserve not just that 67 acres, but another
1:37
105 acres a little bit east of town. And it is
1:40
part of a much larger land preservation strategy
1:43
that we've been working on for several years.
1:46
Where in Berthoud is that land located? So the
1:50
property that we purchased is at the south end
1:51
of Fifth Street. It's just east of the railroad
1:54
tracks, and it is on the north side of the Little
1:57
Thompson River. So it is adjacent to the river
1:59
corridor. It's one of the primary reasons why
2:02
it was important to us, and we can talk about
2:04
that a little bit more. But it allowed us to
2:05
preserve a half mile of river frontage along
2:09
Little Thompson River. And what does the landscape
2:12
look like? What kind of wildlife and plant life
2:15
can you find there? Yeah, so the property adjacent
2:18
to the river has a lot of riparian habitat. You
2:21
can kind of picture river -adjacent land, large
2:24
water -loving trees, tall grasses, other aquatic
2:28
-type plants and animal environments. The Little
2:32
Thompson River actually serves as a wildlife
2:34
corridor all up and down its range. So the Little
2:36
Thompson River is about a 50 -mile stretch of
2:38
river. It starts up in the mountains, and there
2:42
are no highways or roadways that run along adjacent
2:44
to it. And so it's very unique. And it's one
2:47
of the last undeveloped river corridors on the
2:49
North Front Range, especially at the west side
2:51
of I -25. So it makes it really special. And
2:54
it serves as a great wildlife corridor. Deer,
2:56
birds of prey, smaller mammal species. It's just
3:00
a whole host of wildlife that runs through that
3:03
corridor. Can you share a little bit about the
3:07
role that the Little Thompson River has played
3:09
in Berthoud and as Berthoud has grown, that it's
3:12
played in its development? Yeah. So actually
3:15
this property. is adjacent to and contained part
3:20
of the original town site. So the original town
3:22
site in Berthoud was down on the Little Thompson
3:24
River, and that makes sense, right? Waterways
3:26
have always been important in community development.
3:30
And the railroad that runs along the east side
3:32
of this property obviously was another important
3:35
part of the town's location, right? Being able
3:37
to move goods around the United States. The town
3:42
actually... moved up the hill to the north where
3:45
downtown is currently located from this location
3:48
from this site because the trains couldn't get
3:51
up the hill so that you know the town was down
3:54
the river bottom trains would stop you imagine
3:56
them fully loaded and heavy and now they're having
3:58
to start with very little momentum and climb
4:00
this hill moving north so the railroad as i understand
4:03
it i'm not a historian so you know hopefully
4:05
nobody at the birth of the historical society
4:06
will call me angrily afterwards but the railroad
4:10
basically said if you don't move up to the kind
4:12
of to the bluff, so to speak, then we're going
4:15
to not have a stop here anymore. Obviously, that
4:17
would have been devastating for the community.
4:20
But the history of this site is really cool.
4:22
The old schoolhouse is down on a property adjacent
4:24
to it. It's not on this particular one, but the
4:26
original livery, the horse stables were part
4:29
of this property originally. It's not part of
4:31
the part that we purchased, but this spot along
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Little Thompson Rivers always played a really
4:37
important part in Bertha's history. So then why
4:40
did the town of Bertha? finally decide to purchase
4:43
this land. Yeah, it really was part of a multi
4:46
-year, maybe even multi -decade. I'm sure there
4:49
are folks for many, many years ago who had a
4:53
really significant priority focus on acquiring
4:56
and preserving land along the Little Thompson
4:57
River. There's great prime agricultural lands
5:00
that are important to our community and birthed
5:01
it as historically an ag community like a lot
5:03
of communities around us. But also just the opportunity
5:07
for public recreation, wildlife preservation,
5:09
all those things are really important. In 2018,
5:12
we adopted our most recent birthed trails master
5:14
plan. It identified an envisioned trail along
5:18
this corridor, running really from 287 to I -25
5:21
and beyond, connecting to the rest of our trail
5:24
systems. We started in 2020 on that open space
5:27
master plan that was adopted the year after.
5:29
That was an outgrowth of our comprehensive plan.
5:32
And the priorities and policies in the comprehensive
5:35
plan really focused on recreational lands development.
5:39
agricultural preservation, natural areas and
5:42
open spaces. How do you go about planning ahead
5:46
so that there's connection between those areas
5:49
to connect trails, as you mentioned, versus sort
5:51
of scattered areas of preserved land? Yeah, that's
5:55
a great question. I think one of the things that's
5:57
really important is that you have to have a long
5:59
-term vision. And you're not going to get it
6:01
right. Things are going to adjust over time.
6:03
But trying to identify what are all the Where
6:07
are the existing areas that we want to connect
6:09
to? Where are the future areas that we're going
6:11
to want to connect to? What are the things we're
6:13
going to want to avoid and preserve? And then,
6:16
you know, trying to find ways to knit those together
6:18
in intelligent ways. The river corridor is easy,
6:21
right? It's easy to follow. You know where it's
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at. It's easy to explain to people. I want to
6:25
connect the river corridor from I -25 to 287,
6:27
right? And beyond where we can help and assist
6:31
outside of our town limits. Some of the other
6:33
priority areas, especially ag areas on the east
6:36
side of our growth management area, those are
6:38
a little trickier. So, but we're typically looking
6:40
for things like bodies of water or, you know,
6:42
habitat areas or prime agricultural lands that
6:45
have significant irrigation, right? Irrigation
6:47
is super critical to the success of future agriculture.
6:50
And so just, again, trying to find each one of
6:53
those and then knit them together in this long
6:55
range vision so that as development occurs, we
6:57
can say, hey, look, we already covered this in
6:59
our open space master plan. 10 years ago, and
7:02
we expect you to help us make this a reality.
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And developers are typically very willing to
7:07
do that and work with us to help preserve those
7:10
areas. And so we adopted this open space master
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plan to identify priority conservation areas,
7:15
to identify partners and strategies for doing
7:18
all of those things. And this is actually the
7:21
most recent purchase we've made. We've actually,
7:23
starting all the way back in 2022 and 2023, we
7:26
supported the preservation of Lewis Heritage
7:28
Farm. That's actually owned by the Future Farmers
7:30
of America. Larry McKinney actually helped to
7:32
preserve the Lewis Heritage Farm as well. So
7:34
that was a multifaceted partnership. We then
7:37
purchased 132 acres immediately adjacent to the
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Lewis Heritage Farm. That's called the Beefus
7:43
Farm. The town purchased that from another developer
7:46
who had that property under contract that we
7:47
really wanted to, as part of our implementation
7:50
of our open space master plan, preserve some
7:51
of that land. We were able to work out a deal
7:53
with them. We were able to acquire a significant
7:55
portion of the property that they purchased.
7:57
They retained some of it for development. We
7:59
bought that 132 acres along with some really
8:01
senior water rights. Then we bought the Shaw
8:03
Farm, which is on County Road 5. That was the
8:05
other part of the GOCO grant I referenced earlier.
8:08
That's 105 acres, and that's a half a mile of
8:11
river frontage. And then we were able to get
8:15
this property under contract. This is a portion
8:16
of that farm. It also includes not just the Little
8:20
Thompson River frontage, but the Wilson Farm
8:22
property that we purchased, the 67 acres, includes
8:24
a portion of the Dry Creek Corridor as well.
8:26
And Dry Creek is tributary to and flows into
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Little Thompson. And it runs through some of
8:32
our other open spaces where we already have trails
8:34
and other things. So this is really an important
8:36
piece of the open space puzzle to connect our
8:39
existing trails and open spaces to other trails
8:42
and open spaces to the east that we've now purchased.
8:44
And at some point in the future, it can develop
8:47
both for continued agricultural use, but also
8:49
public recreation. One thing that I think is
8:52
kind of neat is the connection to the Dry Creek
8:55
corridor. allows us to now connect. We have about
8:58
a three and a half mile trail loop on the south
9:00
side of town. It runs through neighborhoods and
9:02
adjacent roadways and other things. And it runs
9:05
through some open spaces that the town currently
9:06
owns and manages. And now with this connection
9:09
that we just purchased on that 67 acres, we'll
9:11
be able to now connect to that three and a half
9:13
mile trail loop down to the river. So that was
9:16
a really important connection piece for us. It'll
9:18
also connect to new development to the west.
9:21
That developer is preserving their area of the
9:23
Dry Creek River Corridor with some pretty wide
9:25
buffers to either side of Dry Creek. It will
9:27
connect trails through their system that connects
9:29
to parks, that connects to our rec center. And
9:32
so we're starting to see some of these gaps get
9:34
filled in with some of these acquisitions and
9:36
then, you know, the future trail development
9:38
that will occur. And that's pretty exciting to
9:40
see is that as the puzzle pieces start to fill
9:42
in, you can kind of see the whole picture. What
9:43
was the purchasing price? The Wilson Farm was
9:46
$1 .25 million, plus or minus. for that 67 acres.
9:51
We actually originally intended to only purchase
9:52
35. And we worked out a deal with the developer
9:55
to acquire the Dry Creek Corridor and some other
9:58
property that he had acquired. We got that to
10:00
52. And the price that we offered when we did
10:03
the appraisal was actually a little less than
10:05
what we offered. And so we counted and said,
10:07
hey, we want the price to come down. He said,
10:09
well, how about I just give you more land? And
10:11
we said, okay, that sounds great. And let's talk
10:13
about what that looks like. And we'd already
10:15
made the commitment to that price. So if we can
10:17
get more for our money, let's do it, man. So
10:19
it was a good collaborative relationship. We
10:20
ended up actually getting it for a little bit
10:22
less than it appraised for. So yeah, that one
10:25
was 1 .25. The shawl farm was 2 .4. The beef
10:29
is farm was 5 .7. The shawl farm and the beef's
10:32
farm both included really senior water rights.
10:34
So there's a big chunk of that, of that cost.
10:37
Between all those properties and the money that
10:39
we supported the Lewis Heritage Farm purchase
10:41
with, I think we spent about $9 .5 million on
10:44
open space preservation in the last five years.
10:46
What did the decision -making process look like
10:48
for that kind of purchase? Yeah, those are not
10:50
insignificant. What's interesting is these acquisitions
10:55
typically come along very quickly. Those master
10:58
planning efforts had a lot of public involvement,
11:00
and they identified a lot of really important
11:02
priorities, the Little Thompson River corridor
11:03
being one of the top. We've been communicating
11:07
with landowners along this corridor for many
11:09
years and in some cases have encouraged conservation
11:12
through, you know, land trusts and partners that
11:15
we have where we might fund transaction costs
11:18
and their grant funds that come along to buy
11:20
development rights and things like that. But
11:21
those are very complicated processes and they
11:24
can be time consuming. And often what's happening
11:26
is landowners who, you know, they're done farming
11:29
or they don't even farm at all. Their family
11:31
historically did and they acquired that through,
11:33
you know. natural passing of family members or
11:36
whatever. And they just say, hey, you know what?
11:38
I'm ready to sell. We've owned this land for
11:41
decades. The market's great. And so sometimes
11:44
those properties go on the market. In the case
11:46
of the Beefish Farm, the property went on the
11:48
market. We found out that it had been put on
11:50
the market and in less than a week it was under
11:52
contract. Oh, wow. And so that decision -making
11:55
process has to happen really fast. So I reached
11:58
out directly to the developer. Thankfully, we
12:00
had a good relationship. We know them. They're
12:01
great community partners. And said, hey, We've
12:04
been talking to the property owners. We really
12:05
want to help conserve this. Is there a collaborative
12:08
opportunity here where we can buy a portion,
12:10
you guys can do your development? And we were
12:12
able to work that out. And really the same thing
12:13
happened with the 67 acres of the Wilson farm.
12:17
It was under contract essentially by the time
12:19
we found out. And so we had to make some very
12:21
quick decisions, start those negotiations really
12:23
quickly. And thankfully we have a town board
12:25
who is very committed to open space and ag preservation.
12:28
And we were able to get funding even after the
12:31
fact, after we already had. properties under
12:33
contract as we were able to apply for grant funds,
12:36
things like that. It's usually a very quick process,
12:39
public process to make that happen. You mentioned
12:41
that the board approved these purchases. I'm
12:43
curious if there was any more community involvement
12:46
because you mentioned that this has to move kind
12:48
of quickly. We're really relying on the public
12:51
input that we received through those master planning
12:53
processes to make some of these important decisions.
12:55
And so, you know, there are folks who will come
12:58
to town board meetings when these items on their
13:00
agenda to come and support. open space preservation.
13:03
I don't think we've ever had anybody actually
13:04
come and argue against them, which is great.
13:06
Birdson really values as a community, our open
13:09
spaces, our ag lands, our small town feel. And
13:13
I think these acquisitions really helped to reinforce
13:14
those values. And so they've been really widely
13:17
supported. But earlier this year, we actually
13:20
had a big open space, open house. We invited
13:23
the community. The room was packed to the gills.
13:25
I think we actually had people in the lobby who
13:27
were listening and participating. We had support
13:30
from Larimer County, some of our partners at
13:33
Colorado Open Lands made a bunch of presentations.
13:36
I took questions for, I don't know, an hour,
13:38
hour and a half, and just had a lot of really
13:41
good public feedback and support. And in fact,
13:44
I would argue that most of the feedback we got
13:46
was, you need to do even more of this. And so
13:48
that's a good thing to hear. Yeah, absolutely.
13:51
So what would you say the town's primary goal
13:53
then was in purchasing this land? You mentioned
13:56
there's a few different priorities that you guys
13:58
had. I'm just wondering what maybe the top three
14:00
were. I would say the top three are really, maybe
14:04
I would even throw in a fourth. But first is
14:07
natural area preservation. We want to really
14:09
preserve and enhance the habitat along the Little
14:11
Thompson River corridor for future generations.
14:14
We want to enhance river and stream flows and
14:17
improve those, the quality of the river and in
14:20
-stream flows. And so part of our grant actually
14:23
included basically a water master plan for Little
14:26
Thompson River and how we're going to do that
14:27
and manage that in the future. Third priority
14:29
would be... agricultural preservation. So preserving
14:33
prime ag lands so they can continue to be farmed.
14:36
The price of land is so high now that to purchase
14:40
that land and then farm it becomes economically
14:43
not viable in most cases. And so we have to find
14:47
creative strategies to preserve some of those
14:49
agricultural lands. And then the last is public
14:51
recreation. We don't want to spend public funds
14:54
on lands that never provide value to the public
14:58
beyond things that are harder to see, right?
15:00
It's not that they don't provide value, they
15:02
provide great value in habitat preservation,
15:04
agricultural preservation, but those are a little
15:06
harder for the public to access and enjoy. So
15:09
we want to create public recreation opportunities
15:10
with a trail corridor along the river. So you
15:13
had mentioned recreation being one of the components
15:15
of the plan for this land. What kind of recreation
15:18
were you guys thinking about? Almost exclusively
15:20
passive recreation. The most active recreation
15:23
we would expect to see along these lands or along
15:25
this corridor is likely biking and walking. There
15:29
are some lands that might be really suitable
15:30
for more active uses that are set back away from
15:32
the river a little bit where we have some space.
15:34
And I think that we'll consider those with our
15:37
parks open space recreation trails committee
15:39
in the future. But the primary recreational opportunities
15:42
are walking, biking, nature watching, you know,
15:46
some educational opportunities, things like that.
15:50
Bertha's open space master plan you mentioned
15:52
was put together in 2020 and then approved in
15:55
2021. Can you just share a little bit more about
15:58
that plan, the development process behind it
16:01
and how it kind of guides the decision making
16:03
process now? So the Open Space Master Plan was
16:07
really led by our Parks and Open Space staff
16:09
and our Parks, Open Space, Recreation and Trails
16:11
Committee. It was a great opportunity to reach
16:14
out to the community with surveys and public
16:16
meetings and get their feedback about what are
16:18
the things they think are important. And the
16:20
things I mentioned a minute ago, kind of the
16:22
priorities for acquiring. this farm and the other
16:25
farms along that corridor really are what's identified
16:28
in that open space master plan. Natural area
16:31
preservation, agricultural preservation, public
16:33
recreation, and regional trail corridors. And
16:35
so that informs all the decisions that we make
16:37
as we go out and do these what can often be very
16:41
aggressive acquisitions from a time standpoint.
16:44
How do you balance sort of resource -forward
16:47
protected areas where you're prioritizing conservation
16:50
of plant and wildlife? versus more people -forward
16:54
spaces where you're prioritizing that agricultural
16:56
and recreational use. Yeah, I think that's going
17:00
to be an interesting balance to strike as we
17:02
begin to develop and open these for public recreation.
17:05
One of the things that we've talked about is
17:07
that while we want to have a trail along the
17:10
corridor, we don't want it to follow closely
17:12
to the river the entire way. There might be areas
17:15
where the trail swings down and kind of, we call
17:18
them little peek -in areas where you can get
17:19
down closer to the riverbanks. But then where
17:22
the trail swings back out and provides a nice
17:24
wide space or buffer between some of those environmentally
17:27
sensitive areas and public access. And, you know,
17:31
I think a lot of it's just going to be creativity
17:33
through design and then how those are managed
17:35
in the future. I'm confident we'll have a really
17:36
good team of staff and I'm sure we'll have some
17:39
consultants that will help us work through that
17:40
as we go forward. What does that balance currently
17:43
look like in Berthoud's natural areas? Most of
17:46
our natural areas are not open to the public
17:48
at this time. I think we own about 220 acres
17:51
of developed parkland. I think we have another
17:53
170 acres that we own that's undeveloped. And
17:57
then within our growth management area, there's
17:59
over 1 ,200 acres of lands already conserved
18:03
in some way. And so there's a lot of space that's
18:06
already conserved. But again, the majority of
18:08
it is not accessible to the public today. Some
18:10
of the conserved lands that are privately held
18:12
and they're conserved through land trusts. Those
18:16
will not be open to the public at all. They'll
18:18
continue to operate as private farms or private
18:20
agricultural areas. And then the properties that
18:23
we're acquiring, at some point in the future,
18:25
we'll be able to open those to the public. But
18:27
today, most of our natural areas are not accessible
18:30
to the public. So we're excited about getting
18:32
started with that access. What is Berthoud thinking
18:38
about in terms of the benefits of this open space?
18:41
You mentioned the goals. Is there like an ROI
18:43
or anything that you guys are kind of looking
18:45
forward to seeing as a result of the acquisition?
18:48
Yeah. You know, I tell people a lot, municipal
18:52
government's kind of unique in that our ROI is
18:54
not real tangible in a lot of cases. But you
18:58
can see it and you can feel it. It's like art,
19:00
you know, I don't always know what it is, but
19:02
I can tell when I see it, right? That's a little
19:03
different than the actual quote, but I think
19:05
you know what I'm saying. You know, the ROI we're
19:08
really looking for is both enhancing our existing
19:11
community identity. One of the things we hear
19:13
over and over again about Berthoud from residents
19:15
and even from others in the region who are not
19:17
residents is that Berthoud has a great small
19:20
town charm. And I think a lot of that has to
19:22
do with the fact that we're surrounded by agricultural
19:23
lands. You know, we have these beautiful open
19:25
space areas, a wonderful park system. And so
19:29
we want to continue to reinforce that as the
19:30
community grows, because it's going to grow.
19:32
For better or for worse, Berthoud, you know,
19:34
I tell people a lot too, there's a lot of places
19:36
that aren't growing. There's a reason for that.
19:38
If you found a place that you love, there's a
19:40
good chance other people are going to love it
19:41
too. But acquiring and preserving these natural
19:45
areas and open spaces helps preserve some of
19:47
that small town field. That's really important
19:48
to us. I think some of the other return on investment
19:51
is the birth that is really focused on and supports
19:54
recreation. We actually have two dedicated 1
19:57
% sales taxes that help to fund recreation. I
20:00
think that's unique in Colorado. I'm not sure
20:02
there's any other community that has 2%. It's
20:05
literally half of the sales tax we collect that
20:08
can be spent specifically for recreation purposes.
20:11
Some of that can be spent on other things, too.
20:13
But the voters have said, you know, with their
20:15
dollars, we want you to invest in parks and recreation
20:18
and open space preservation. Those are those
20:21
are specifically identified in those tax measures.
20:23
And so part of the return on investment is giving
20:26
people what they've asked for, giving people
20:28
what they paid for, letting them recreate. And
20:29
then just just the beauty of nature. I think,
20:32
you know, something I think most people that
20:34
move to Colorado or people live here, one of
20:37
the things they value the most is the connection
20:39
to the environment. And we want to continue to
20:42
help preserve and enhance that. If people wanted
20:45
to learn more about these open spaces in Bertha,
20:47
where can they go? Best place is our website.
20:50
Town of Bertha's website has some parks and open
20:52
space pages that are there. We also have a website
20:54
that we just launched in the last two months
20:56
called Engage Bertha. You can find that on our
20:58
website as well. But that's a great place to
21:01
go and learn about active projects, things that
21:03
we're working on now, things that are under construction
21:05
or underway now, and then even some that have
21:07
closed out. But our little Thompson. and a master
21:11
plan. There's a page on there with some additional
21:14
information about that. And then we would encourage
21:16
everybody to participate in meetings like our
21:19
Parks Open Space Recreation Trail Committee meetings.
21:22
A lot of the magic happens in that room with
21:24
those folks, with our staff and those volunteers.
21:27
And so people that have an interest in that and
21:29
they have a passion for it, that's a great place
21:30
to get involved and learn more. Awesome. Chris,
21:33
thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks
21:35
so much for having me. Next, we're going to learn
21:42
more about the mental and physical health benefits
21:45
of green spaces and the role equitable access
21:48
to nature plays in creating healthier communities.
21:51
We're talking with Dr. Sarah Lotemplio, an assistant
21:54
professor of parks, recreation, and tourism at
21:57
the University of Vermont, and the director of
22:00
the Restoring Attention and Affect in Nature
22:03
Lab, or RAIN Lab. Sarah's research explores the
22:07
restorative effects of natural environments.
22:10
particularly how spending time in nature can
22:12
influence our attention, mood, and overall well
22:15
-being. Sarah, thank you so much for joining
22:18
us. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
22:21
To start, can you tell us a bit about yourself
22:24
and the work that you do? Yeah, absolutely. So
22:28
I am faculty at the University of Vermont, but
22:32
interestingly, up until this January, I was faculty
22:37
at Colorado State University. Larimer County
22:40
is near and dear to my heart. I was also a volunteer
22:43
with the Master Gardener program here, so definitely
22:45
missing Colorado and Fort Collins and Larimer
22:49
County broadly. But I work at the University
22:52
of Vermont, and although I am currently in the
22:56
Department of Parks, Recreation, and Tourism
22:59
within the Rubenstein School of Natural Resources,
23:02
my background and training is actually in cognitive
23:05
neuroscience. So I have my PhD. in that discipline.
23:10
And I run a research lab that primarily focuses
23:15
on spending time in nature and how it affects
23:18
human brain activity, stress physiology, cognition,
23:21
etc. I also teach at the University of Vermont
23:27
on topics related to this area as well. I also
23:32
serve on the executive board for the Nature and
23:35
Health Alliance Nationwide, which is an organization
23:37
that is focused broadly on how spending time
23:41
in nature influences health and well -being.
23:44
Right now, we're working on a 10 -year research
23:47
agenda. What drew you to studying this relationship
23:51
between nature and health? When I started college,
23:57
I knew I was really interested in the environment,
24:00
and then I also knew I was really interested
24:02
in human psychology. And so I didn't really know
24:04
how those two things fit together or if they
24:07
fit together. But when I was maybe, I think,
24:12
21, I spent about three weeks hiking Vermont's
24:17
Long Trail. So I was backpacking all the way
24:20
from kind of the border of Massachusetts up to
24:22
the border of Quebec. a lot of changes within
24:28
myself. Like I felt like I was more focused.
24:31
I felt happier. I felt like I was able to kind
24:34
of complete, like have thoughts go to their completion.
24:39
So I got really curious about that and started
24:41
looking into it and then found a lab that was
24:45
studying how spending time in nature affected
24:46
brain activity and cognition and applied for
24:50
and joined the lab. And then everything kind
24:53
of developed from there. What have we learned
24:54
over time about how green spaces and time spent
24:58
in nature impact our health and well -being?
25:01
Yeah, I would say first and foremost, I think
25:04
there are a lot of communities and groups around
25:07
the world that have recognized the inherent connection
25:10
and value of connection between humans and nature,
25:14
including, importantly, many indigenous groups
25:17
here in what is now the United States. More recently,
25:21
there has been accumulating evidence from a Western
25:24
scientific lens. linking all sorts of health
25:28
and well -being outcomes to time spent connected
25:31
with nature. And so these outcomes can include
25:34
improved mental health, as well as just kind
25:38
of improved short -term mood and general well
25:41
-being. It can include reduced stress. We also
25:46
see that spending time in nature helps our bodies
25:49
physiologically to recover from stressful events
25:52
faster. cognition. So we tend to have better
25:58
cognitive performance after spending time in
26:00
nature and even changes in brain activity. We
26:05
are seeing now some really interesting research
26:07
showing changes in processes related to attention
26:12
and cognitive control, but also even like pain,
26:16
how our brain processes pain. So we can see that
26:21
the receptors in our brain that respond to pain
26:24
are less activated, actually, when we're in nature,
26:27
which is really interesting. So there's a whole
26:30
suite of health and well -being benefits, but
26:35
social benefits as well, that one can obtain
26:38
from spending time connected with nature. So
26:41
what's happening at the physiological level when
26:45
we spend time in nature to provide those benefits?
26:49
Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say
26:51
it's still an area of academic debate as to why
26:56
exactly we see all of these changes that are
26:59
happening. But what we do know is that typically
27:03
when people spend time in a nature area, for
27:08
whatever the reason is, we see that heart rate
27:11
slows. We see that people have increases in their
27:16
heart rate variability, which is a marker. of
27:19
generalized well -being, actually, the higher
27:21
and the more variable your heart rate is, it
27:23
usually indicates that your body is better able
27:26
to kind of control its heart rate and tamp down
27:30
that stress response. And we also are seeing
27:33
some evidence of other physiological changes
27:36
like reductions in cortisol, reductions in blood
27:40
pressure. And of course, I also mentioned some
27:43
of those really interesting changes in brain
27:45
activity and function as well. What? tangible
27:49
impacts does time in green space have for things
27:52
like stress, anxiety, or mood? Yeah, so there
27:56
has been quite a lot of research. In addition
27:59
to some of the physiological things I mentioned,
28:01
a lot of researchers will ask people, importantly,
28:05
how they're actually feeling, too. And so there
28:07
is a lot of research at this point that people
28:11
also feel less stress. And recently there was
28:15
a meta -analysis showing that Time in nature
28:19
can also have pretty profound effects on mental
28:23
health. This study primarily looked at mood disorders,
28:26
so that would include anxiety and depression,
28:28
as well as just kind of overall mood, and found
28:31
that time in nature can help with people who
28:35
are experiencing some of those symptoms. It's
28:37
not a substitute for regular health care, but
28:40
can be a really useful supplemental treatment,
28:43
just like we might imagine meditation or exercise.
28:48
So, Sarah, is there evidence that being in nature
28:51
can also affect things like sleep or immune functions?
28:55
Yeah, it's a great question. I would say this
28:58
is kind of an area that we're actually focused
29:00
quite a bit on in our 10 -year research agenda
29:04
that we're drafting up right now. There's a fair
29:07
amount of evidence that nature can affect blood
29:09
pressure and heart rate. There are more researchers
29:13
that are interested in potential downstream effects
29:16
on sleep. and also on immune function. So sleep,
29:20
you can imagine there maybe being multiple potential
29:23
mechanisms there. On the one hand, maybe if we're
29:27
less stressed when we've spent time in nature,
29:29
that helps us sleep better. On the other hand,
29:32
it could be something as simple as if you have
29:34
more trees in your neighborhood, like more nearby
29:37
nature, maybe there's less noise pollution that's
29:39
getting to you at night, and then you're able
29:41
to sleep better because of that. could be kind
29:45
of multiple different pathways there. And then
29:48
similarly with immune function, right now I think
29:51
there's a lot of back and forth about the role
29:53
of just simply stress reduction can help with
29:57
immune functioning versus are there specific
30:00
phytoncides or other volatile organic compounds
30:05
that are in the air that we might be breathing
30:09
in that actually help with immune function. So
30:11
if you think about all the living organisms that
30:14
might be out in the forest. And if you might
30:16
be breathing some of those in, are those contributing
30:19
to your microbiome? Are they helping your gut
30:23
be healthier? And does that help with immune
30:25
function? So researchers are still trying to
30:27
tease apart exactly what's going on there. So
30:31
on our list for the next 10 years. So what do
30:34
we know then about the effects of nature on things
30:37
like attention or creativity, cognitive performance?
30:41
Yeah, this has been more of a concrete focus,
30:45
especially in recent years. And we do know from
30:48
recent meta -analyses that there are pretty significant
30:52
effects on attention, creativity, and cognitive
30:57
performance. So when we think about cognition,
31:02
one of our most maybe important skills is cognitive
31:06
control or just our ability to kind of... think
31:10
and plan and pay attention to things and do what
31:13
we need to do in our everyday lives to meet our
31:15
goals. And we can really think about those abilities
31:18
being underlied by kind of three distinct things.
31:22
So attentional inhibition, like our ability to
31:25
just pay attention to what we want and inhibit
31:28
other things, our ability to kind of be a little
31:31
bit cognitively flexible. So switching from one
31:35
task to another efficiently, and then also our
31:39
ability to kind of keep information in mind or
31:42
manipulate it. So that would be what cognitive
31:44
scientists would call working memory. It's what
31:47
helps you remember a phone number if somebody
31:49
says it to you. You kind of just rehearse it
31:51
in your head. And we are seeing evidence that
31:54
all three of these abilities improve when we
31:58
spend time in nature. Most of the research has
32:00
really focused on just kind of short -term. Somebody
32:04
goes for an hour long walk in the park and researchers
32:07
are testing their cognitive performance before
32:09
and after. So I think the next steps for that
32:12
research is to really understand some of the
32:15
longer term effects and maybe how some of these
32:18
improvements might be translating into other
32:21
life skills, like how we're doing in school or
32:25
work or etc. What kind of specific environments
32:29
are you guys actually testing in to? get these
32:31
results? And are there any kinds of natural environments
32:35
that are better than others? Like, you know,
32:37
if a forest is better than a swamp? Yeah, this
32:40
is a really great question. And we get asked
32:42
this question all of the time. And to be honest,
32:46
I think there's still a lot of research to be
32:48
done here because, you know, on the one hand,
32:51
we're saying that nature can improve all of these
32:54
things. But then on the other hand, what is nature?
32:57
And there has to be something about these environments.
33:00
that is helping us in these ways. And when we
33:05
think about it, there's not really a clean distinction
33:07
between, you know, this is nature over here and
33:10
this is not nature. We think about like a farm
33:13
or a garden. Maybe you think about like plants
33:16
in your office or other ways that you might be
33:19
interacting with nature. And so there is a lot
33:23
of scholarly attention, I would say, that is
33:26
going to be devoted, especially looking forward.
33:29
into what specific elements might be promoting
33:32
some of these outcomes that we're seeing. For
33:35
the time being, there has been some research
33:38
just broadly on well -being outcomes. So not
33:41
necessarily looking at like, you know, cognitive
33:44
performance or anything hyper -specific, just
33:47
broadly like asking people how well they feel.
33:51
That research seems to suggest that it's not
33:54
particularly important what environment you are
33:57
in. It's just more important that you are in
34:01
like something that you perceive as nature and
34:04
how much time you're spending in that environment.
34:06
So that kind of raises another question. Is there
34:09
like a minimum effective dose for this? You know,
34:11
how much time do you need in one of these natural
34:14
environments to see these benefits? Yeah, so
34:17
again, I would say most of the research is pretty
34:19
preliminary here and really correlational. So
34:22
we've gotten that research by just asking people
34:24
retroactively like. How well do you feel? Again,
34:28
like this really broad well -being outcome. And
34:30
then also asking them, how much time did you
34:32
spend in nature in the last week? And from that
34:35
research, some people have identified like this
34:39
optimal amount of 120 minutes. So people who
34:44
are saying that they had 120 minutes or more
34:48
of time in nature in a week were overall rating
34:53
their well -being as higher. Interestingly, more
34:56
than that didn't really seem to matter that much.
35:00
But of course there's limitations. That study
35:02
is really useful and it's the best information
35:04
we have, but of course there's a lot of limitations
35:06
to that. And so to follow up on that, it would
35:10
be really useful if we did some studies where
35:12
we actually had some people who were assigned
35:15
to spend a certain amount of time in nature and
35:18
compare different groups of people. Maybe people
35:21
who spent 120 minutes versus 60 minutes. And
35:25
similarly, really focus on broad well -being
35:28
outcomes. We don't know if results would be different,
35:31
like maybe 120 minutes to feel good. But how
35:34
many minutes do you need to spend to change your
35:37
performance on an attention task or your blood
35:41
pressure? And so we don't really have a great
35:44
idea or a great answer to that question at the
35:46
time being. Are the health benefits different
35:50
when we're actively engaging with nature, say?
35:54
on a hike or nature journaling or something like
35:56
that versus simply being around it, like passing
36:00
a green area on our commute, for example. Yeah,
36:04
these are all great questions. I feel like you
36:07
guys should be writing this research agenda with
36:09
us because this is another one that we're talking
36:13
about that I don't think is really well understood.
36:16
This comes up a lot. I know one of my colleagues
36:20
also who's at CSU, Dr. Amy McDonald. is really
36:23
interested in when people are in nature on their
36:26
phones, like if they're out and they're texting
36:29
the whole time or they're on the phone versus
36:33
when they're kind of actively looking around
36:36
at their surroundings. But then you could also
36:37
imagine, like you said, Joanna, maybe there's
36:41
a tree by your window. And is that different
36:43
than actually going out and like planting flowers
36:46
near the tree or something, like having a more
36:48
of an active engagement? And I don't think we
36:51
really know the answer to that. There's some
36:54
work that kind of hints a little bit at like
36:59
maybe the importance of some connection or some
37:02
noticing of the environment where people who
37:05
report that an area is more biodiverse, like
37:09
they think the area is more biodiverse, whether
37:12
or not that's true, by the way. But if they think
37:15
that. They tend to experience more of a mood
37:18
boost from being in that environment. So that
37:21
would suggest that there's some element of like
37:24
needing to notice nature to get the benefit.
37:28
But I would say, yeah, it's a great question
37:30
that I don't think we have a great answer to.
37:33
Do we know if living in a town or city that has
37:37
lots of access to open spaces, does that impact
37:40
your overall health? Yeah, in theory, it should.
37:45
And I will say like epidemiology is not really
37:49
my area of expertise. So I'm sure some of my
37:52
colleagues with that background could probably
37:54
answer this a little bit better. I don't know
37:57
that there's been a ton of studies that have
37:59
necessarily compared like we're going to look
38:01
at this city and then compare it to another one
38:04
with less open space, which can be really hard
38:07
to do because cities can be pretty different
38:09
in a lot of different ways. Based on all this
38:13
evidence that we've been talking about, it seems
38:17
to suggest that, yes, there would be a lot of
38:19
benefits. I'm actually realizing there was one
38:23
study, it's ongoing, the University of Louisville,
38:27
where they did add in a bunch of not necessarily
38:30
open spaces, but they planted a ton of trees
38:33
in a neighborhood and then looked at a control
38:37
neighborhood that didn't have trees planted.
38:39
So they matched the neighborhood on kind of...
38:42
socio -demographic characteristics like income
38:46
level, for example. And they saw pretty profound
38:51
improvements in residents' health when they had
38:54
planted trees. So this would also point towards
38:56
yes. But something that I think is worth mentioning
39:00
as well is there is almost this paradox, too,
39:03
where oftentimes our rural areas, although they
39:08
are surrounded by Areas that may seem nature
39:11
-rich, there sometimes can be access issues as
39:15
well. There may be fewer trail systems, land
39:19
might be private, that might prevent people from
39:22
getting on and accessing a certain area. So just
39:26
wanted to point that out as well, that just because
39:30
it's there might not necessarily mean that people
39:33
have access to it. You've talked a little bit
39:36
about surveys and self -reported data. But I'm
39:40
curious how you go about measuring the health
39:43
benefits of time spent in nature. What does that
39:45
process look like? Yeah, it can really depend
39:49
on the outcome you're interested in and kind
39:52
of the type of researcher you are. So in my lab,
39:56
where we do cognitive neuroscience, we are usually
40:00
bringing into the field with us all of these
40:03
tools. So we have, of course, like self -report
40:06
surveys. But then we also have these cognitive
40:08
tasks that we're giving people. We actually will
40:11
measure brain activity from people by using EEG.
40:15
So it looks kind of like a swim cap that you
40:17
put on your head. And we put a bunch of electrodes
40:19
in it and it measures brain waves. We'll take
40:23
out ECG, so electrodes you put on your chest
40:26
to measure heart rate and heart rate variability.
40:30
Occasionally we've done blood pressure. So in
40:34
my lab, it's a lot of equipment. We're using
40:36
kind of experiments to try to, you know, put
40:40
people in one situation or another and see how
40:42
they react. Other people that are focused on
40:45
health, particularly epidemiologists, might be
40:49
using tools like they might look at different
40:53
neighborhoods in a city and look at their green
40:55
space coverage or how far they are from a park
40:58
or open area and then map that on to public health
41:03
data. rates of hospitalization, rates of cardiovascular
41:07
disease, things like that. So there's a lot of
41:12
different ways that you can measure the health
41:14
benefits of time spent in nature, and all of
41:17
them have their place and can give us useful
41:19
information. So, Doctor, I'm curious, what does
41:23
a day in the life of your research look like?
41:27
How often are you out conducting this research,
41:30
and are there things like control groups? Yeah,
41:33
so every day can look pretty different. So I'm
41:37
kind of at, you know, I'm kind of the head of
41:41
the lab. And so I have several PhD students,
41:45
postdoctoral scholars, research assistants, etc.,
41:48
that are mostly kind of running the studies on
41:51
a day -to -day basis. And so that could look
41:55
like they are taking somebody actually out. into
42:00
an open space and running an experiment with
42:03
them. My former master's thesis student, Sarah
42:06
Ashley, worked with the city of Fort Collins,
42:08
actually, at Fossil Creek Natural Area. And she
42:12
ran an experiment where people were either out
42:15
in the open area or they were just kind of in
42:17
the parking lot. And she was measuring heart
42:21
rate variability, but also was conducting interviews
42:23
with people. She was interested specifically
42:25
in the LGBTQ plus population. their experiences
42:30
in natural areas. So it can look like that. I
42:34
have another student actually at CSU right now.
42:37
Her name's Lily, and she is running a study in
42:41
the lab where we are showing people pictures
42:43
of nature, and she's recording brain activity
42:46
to just try to get at that question I was mentioning
42:50
earlier about what elements of nature are affecting
42:55
brain activity. Why does nature influence brain
42:58
activity? Among other things that project's doing.
43:01
And so really, for the most part, I'm kind of
43:04
supervising all of these projects. And then also,
43:08
this day and age, it also looks like trying very
43:12
hard to find funding for all of this research,
43:15
which is a challenging thing right now in the
43:18
scientific landscape, as well as just analyzing
43:22
and writing up all of our findings, our things
43:25
that we're doing. Another question that I have
43:28
is, you know, how do you think cities, towns
43:32
should be thinking about these green spaces,
43:34
these natural areas when it comes to things like
43:36
public health? Yeah, I think increasingly there
43:40
is an argument to see green spaces and open areas
43:44
not necessarily as nice to have, but need to
43:49
have. We are really, I think, just scratching
43:53
the surface of these spaces' potential. not only
43:57
to provide health benefits in the form of ecosystem
44:00
regulating services. So like I mentioned, maybe
44:02
there's less noise pollution and then you sleep
44:04
better or there's less floods because we've added
44:08
green space in a particular area. You can tell
44:11
I'm not a natural resource person, but we should
44:16
also be thinking about some of the mental and
44:19
physical benefits that people can get just simply
44:21
by recreating or being in a space. And I do think
44:25
this is something that we should start to seriously
44:29
consider within public health and within health
44:32
care broadly. That kind of leads me to my next
44:34
question, you know, in terms of like personal
44:36
health. Do you think these do you think health
44:39
care providers should be integrating time and
44:40
nature, you know, as part of a treatment plan
44:43
saying, hey, go out, take a walk? Yeah, yeah.
44:46
So there is a growing movement to do that. If
44:48
you check out the ParkRx program. our website,
44:53
and I think maybe NatureRx is another one. These
44:56
are organizations that are trying to help healthcare
44:58
providers actually prescribe nature to their
45:01
patients. We're still trying to understand more
45:04
about how or why or if these programs would be
45:09
effective or what might make them effective,
45:11
like what would actually make somebody go out.
45:14
and do that, go out and be in nature because
45:17
we know our doctors tell us all sorts of things
45:19
like that we should be exercising 150 minutes
45:22
a week. And a lot of us know we should, but we
45:24
don't. So there are a lot of really fabulous
45:27
people in healthcare that are thinking about
45:29
this. And right now, I think the question is,
45:31
how do we do this in a way that is going to be
45:35
most effective for the highest number of patients?
45:39
Do you have any tips for how people who might
45:43
have difficulty accessing natural areas due to
45:45
things like disabilities, mobility issues, how
45:49
they can access these health benefits? Yeah,
45:52
I would say first and foremost, this really is
45:56
a structural issue that I think cities and states
46:00
and anyone who kind of has the power to manage
46:04
a green space or natural area should be thinking
46:07
about is how you can make this space accessible
46:10
for everyone to enjoy. So first and foremost
46:14
advice would just be for people managing spaces,
46:17
just really be conscientious of this and try
46:20
to think about access. However, I know the reality
46:24
is for a lot of people, there are areas that
46:28
are not accessible or people might be in a situation
46:31
where they really just kind of can't go out.
46:36
So a lot of people in long -term care facilities,
46:39
for example, might not necessarily have the option
46:42
to go out to a park or drive a long distance.
46:46
And so I know there is growing research right
46:50
now looking at how other forms of nature contact
46:53
might provide benefits. One area that is popping
46:56
up a lot is virtual contact with nature. So I
47:01
worked and still work with a researcher at Colorado
47:04
State University. Dr. Francisco Ortega, as well
47:08
as a colleague in psychology who focuses on gerontology
47:12
primarily and cognitive aging. That would be
47:14
Dr. Deanna Davalos, along with some other colleagues
47:17
at the University of Minnesota. And we're really
47:19
interested in how virtual nature contact might
47:23
be a way for older adults who may have lost access
47:28
to nature contact to reconnect with nature via
47:33
Yeah, via virtual reality headsets. So still
47:37
ongoing research there. I guess I'll start, too,
47:42
with this story about how we got interested in
47:45
this research. We were really interested in how
47:49
spending time in nature might be beneficial for
47:52
older adults broadly. But then we had a student
47:55
who approached us who... was really curious about
47:59
the potential of VR nature. And the reason the
48:01
student was really interested was because she
48:04
had a grandmother in long -term care and the
48:07
grandmother couldn't leave anymore, but really
48:09
enjoyed picnics. And so the student created a
48:14
virtual picnic to enjoy with her grandmother
48:17
and then got really curious about that and really
48:21
curious about the potential for virtual reality
48:24
to reconnect people with nature spaces. And so
48:27
that led us to start thinking about incorporating
48:30
that in some of our work. Of course, virtual
48:34
reality is not intended to be a substitute for
48:38
access to nature, and nor should it be treated
48:41
as such, but it can really be a powerful tool.
48:45
You mentioned a few times that you're working
48:48
on a research agenda for the next 10 years. What
48:51
is on the research agenda? What are the priorities
48:54
that you're looking at? Oh, wow. Well, there's
48:58
70 of them. They're largely grouped around understanding
49:04
basic mechanisms. So trying to understand more
49:06
about why and how nature influences health, specific
49:10
health outcomes. So identifying really specific
49:13
health outcomes that we think nature may help,
49:16
but we maybe need a little bit more research
49:18
to understand more. So sleep outcomes are on
49:21
there, sleep disorders specifically. Measurement
49:25
and dose is the next one. So these questions
49:28
around how do we measure nature? How do we know
49:31
what the right dose is? How do we, when we're
49:35
asking people if they spent time in nature, how
49:38
do we let people know what we mean when we say
49:41
nature? If we're thinking about things like green
49:44
space in a neighborhood, how do we measure that?
49:47
Is it with tree canopy? Is it with eye level
49:49
vegetation? What works best? The next one is
49:54
technological nature. So just trying to understand
49:58
more about technology's role in our relationship
50:01
with nature for good or for ill. And then the
50:05
next one is from diversity, equity, inclusion
50:08
towards justice. So acknowledging that we've
50:12
spent a lot of time documenting disparities in
50:14
access to nature and how do we move from documenting
50:17
disparities towards. actually moving towards
50:20
equitable access and relationships with nature.
50:24
So economics is another broad category we're
50:26
working towards. So a question related to that
50:29
might be, if I add green space to an area and
50:33
it improves health outcomes, what is the economic
50:36
result of that? Or maybe what economic burden
50:40
does that lift on the general population to trying
50:43
to just understand in dollars and cents? exactly
50:48
what maybe some of the economic benefits of health
50:52
through nature are and trying to quantify them
50:54
in language that target sectors will understand
50:59
and recognize. So trying to quantify it in terms
51:01
of the health care sector, in terms of urban
51:04
development, et cetera. And then interventions,
51:07
implementation and policy studies. So that is
51:09
where that group was focused actually a lot on
51:12
nature prescriptions and what makes them work.
51:14
And then human nature relationships, which was
51:17
actually a new category that we added that wasn't
51:20
on the previous research agenda. And this is
51:23
really about trying to broaden our horizons beyond
51:28
Western scientific methods and understand and
51:33
incorporate more diverse ways of knowing, including
51:37
several indigenous epistemologies, to understand
51:41
more about the... relationship between humans
51:44
and nature, not only from the perspective of
51:48
nature providing positive benefits for humans,
51:51
but how does that relationship itself then help
51:54
humans be better stewards of nature? I do miss
51:59
Larimer County and Colorado State University
52:03
quite a bit. There's also some really fantastic
52:05
researchers and practitioners in the area that
52:09
are focused on this topic. Dr. McDonald, Dr.
52:13
Davalos, Dr. Ortega, who are all at CSU. I also
52:17
work with some fabulous researchers that are
52:19
interested in kind of breaking down barriers
52:21
between the research and practice of nature and
52:24
health, which would be Dr. Sarah Walker and Jill
52:27
Zaretsky at CSU. So encourage folks who are local
52:31
to maybe connect with those groups of people.
52:35
And for anyone who's interested, there is a group.
52:39
called Nature and Health Colorado. Anyone can
52:42
join from somebody who's like, hey, I'm a doctor
52:46
and I want to prescribe nature to my patients,
52:48
to researchers, to just interested members of
52:51
the public. If you want to know more about this
52:54
topic, just look up Nature and Health Colorado.
52:57
The group is run actually by Krista Timmerman,
53:01
who's at Larimer County within the Office of
53:04
Extension, as well as Dr. Amy McDonald. and Dr.
53:08
Amy Wagenfeld, who is both at CSU and at the
53:12
University of Washington. So it's a great group.
53:15
They do lots of fun things. Sarah, thank you
53:17
so much for joining us today. Yeah, thank you
53:20
so much for having me. You can find links to
53:23
learn more about the topics we discussed today
53:25
in the show notes. If you have a question about
53:28
public health in Larimer County or a topic you'd
53:31
like us to discuss, let us know. Email us at
53:34
healthiertogether at larimer .org. Thanks for
53:38
listening, Larimer County. Until next week, stay
53:40
well, stay connected, and remember, we really
53:43
are healthier together.