Latest / Identity at the Center / #326 - IAM in 2025 with Martin Kuppinger

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#326 - IAM in 2025 with Martin Kuppinger · Identity at the Center

0:00
So how do we do ensure that this all is kept under control?
0:04
I think this entire field, I tend to call it a identity.
0:07
So the intersection of AI and identity is still a pretty much
0:11
a wide space on our technology map.
0:16
We see a lot of start-ups around AI security nowadays, but I
0:21
think we need start-ups around a identity.
0:24
It seems to me that technology, the functionality is going to
0:28
blaze way past security. So it happened with cloud
0:32
infrastructure, I think, and I think it'll happen again.
0:36
I think the fall back will be some sort of leveraging legacy
0:41
permissions, which we already know are not good enough.
0:44
I think that's maybe what you're referencing.
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You have these super users administrate system
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administrators. Does that mean the System
0:51
Administrator can start using AI to find out all kinds of
0:55
information about the company or information they they shouldn't
1:00
have access to? Even think about someone having
1:07
access to the AI. Which all, by the way, brings us
1:10
back to the initial theme, identity, verified identities.
1:16
So is it really Martin using the AI?
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And what is the AI supposed to do in the context of Martin?
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And if it's not Martin or if someone is is using the AI in
1:27
different contexts, there might be way more information that is
1:31
to discuss or even if the AI is is sort of constrained in what
1:35
it can do in the context of the individual.
1:38
I think this is a very interesting field to think about
1:42
for 2025. This is identity at the center
1:53
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:56
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
2:02
Steadman. Welcome to the Identity of the
2:10
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
2:12
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
2:13
Oh, not so bad yourself. Doing great.
2:16
This episode is going to drop on January 20th, which is also the
2:21
same day as the college football national championship game.
2:27
So in honor of that, I wore my Georgia Bulldogs T-shirt.
2:31
But. Unfortunately, the Georgia
2:34
Bulldogs will not be playing in that game.
2:36
But I, I can always dream. There's always next year.
2:40
You're you're a Chicago fan. You've got to be used to saying
2:44
that by now. Well, I am a Chicago fan.
2:47
I don't really follow college football, so I could care less
2:48
what's going on there. But I am a Chicago Bears fan
2:52
and, well, you know, there's always next year has been our
2:55
our phrase throughout the last 40 years.
2:57
So. So, yeah, I can advise that.
2:59
You know, when you stood up there for a second, I thought
3:01
you were like going to like flash us or you had like, you
3:04
know, your chest pain or something like, like a super
3:06
fan. I'm a little disappointed that
3:08
we didn't get to see that side. Are you trying to drive people
3:11
to YouTube or what? Yeah, exactly.
3:15
Yeah. Hey, anything we can do to go
3:16
viral, Jim, come on, do it. Do it for the views.
3:19
Yeah, right. Yeah, we'll we'll talk about
3:23
identity, we'll talk about AII. Think that'll have to drive our
3:27
views for now. Yeah, let's focus on the
3:30
conversation, but I think before we get to that, let's talk about
3:33
EIC 2025 because you and I are going to be there for the first
3:36
time in Berlin, Germany. It's May 6th, the 9th.
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And like I mentioned, Jim and I will be there.
3:41
We've got a discount code for everyone who is willing to show
3:44
their support and partake in that.
3:46
The code is ID, AC25 MKO and I get you 25% off.
3:51
Don't worry about remembering that right now.
3:52
I'll have it in our show notes and you'll be able to find it
3:55
easily on our website. It's right on our home page.
3:57
So I'm looking forward to that first time in Berlin.
4:00
We're going to ask our guests some questions about that
4:02
probably towards the end of our conversation around what should
4:05
I be doing Berlin, first time there, but I'm looking forward
4:08
to it. What about?
4:09
You, Jim. Oh, I can't wait.
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I've never been to Berlin either.
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I've also never been to Munich, which I think is where EIC was
4:16
in past years. So maybe in the future if it's
4:20
moved to Munich, we'll get to go there as well.
4:23
But I'm excited. I've never been to Berlin.
4:25
I've been to Frankfurt. That's about it.
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So yeah, you know, I love experiencing new cultures and I
4:34
love German food. There's a German food restaurant
4:37
near me at home. And, you know, I'm kind of
4:40
bored. I get the Schnitzel every time.
4:42
But I do that at at every restaurant.
4:44
Once I find what I like, I kind of stick to it.
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Yeah, I'm the same way with chicken and waffles.
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So maybe we'll see how that works.
4:52
You're way ahead too. You've already like booked your
4:53
flight. I have not.
4:55
And I'm still my wife and I was trying to figure out how we're
4:57
going to do all this because she's probably going to join me
5:00
out there. And then, you know, we're
5:01
planning on trying to hit other areas.
5:03
So we I have not even, we have not even figured out what we're
5:06
going to do yet. And so I know I'm behind where
5:08
you're at right now, Jim. Yeah, I'm going to be out there
5:11
the week before flying into Oslo, meeting a bunch of
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identerati and Oslo the the local identerati.
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I haven't figured out exactly what we're going to do after
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that, but I'm thinking we're going to, I'm leaning toward
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like an urban vacation, right? So this is like a vacation week,
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definitely meeting folks from Norway the first couple of days.
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And then we weren't sure if we're going to drive through the
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countryside of Norway, which is absolutely spectacular from what
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I've seen in YouTube and things like that, or we're going to go
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to Stockholm and Copenhagen. That's kind of option 2.
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I guess there's a third wild card option, which I don't know
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what that is, but if we do Stockholm and Copenhagen, I'd
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like to try to find local identity in those locations.
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So if you're listening and you live near those cities or in
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those cities, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
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I'd love to, you know, meet and have a beer.
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I'm sure you'll have stickers with you too, right?
6:14
Oh, of course. Yeah, you gotta stock up my bag
6:17
all. Right, well, why don't we get to
6:18
our guests? He is the founder and principal
6:21
analyst with Koopinger. Cole, welcome back to the show
6:23
for the 5th time, Martin. Really #5 already?
6:28
#5 Yep, for joining me look, we always like having you on it
6:33
seems like we have you on every maybe like 9 to 12 months kind
6:37
of seems to be kind of the, the thing you've been very gracious
6:40
along with EIC to invite Jim and I to come out there and we're
6:43
looking forward to again our first time being there.
6:45
We have actually a lot that we want to cover today.
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So I'm not going to ask you about your background on that
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stuff because you've been on the show five times.
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Go back and listen to previous episodes of Martin if if that's
6:55
what they interest you. But why don't we just jump right
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into it? Because if there's a lot of
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topics that people are interested in and seem to be
7:01
gaining steam in this space, and the first one is identity
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verification, It seems like the last couple confidence I've been
7:09
to Gartner Identity Week and last year's Identiverse seem to
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have much more prevalent prevalence of these types of
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identity verification tools. And I think it's starting to
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pick up at least in the US, especially around things like
7:24
fraud and being able to after identify who's on the other end,
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right? Kind of the know your customer
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type thing, but it seems to be expanding.
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I'm curious from your perspective as someone who
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really knows, you know, the IM space at large, where do you see
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the identity verification market?
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And how does this look for 2025? Do you think it is still
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ascending? Is it sort of reached a peak or
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are we kind of in a stable platform now?
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Yeah. So before we come to that, maybe
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just a few comments on Germantowns.
7:55
OK. So Berlin, Berlin is great.
7:57
It's its largest town. It's it's a bit actually, but it
8:00
has has has something Munich also nicely off the mountains
8:05
close to it, etcetera. Frankfurt, we we may discuss
8:07
about it, but I personally believe the place to be a
8:10
Stuttgart where I live. I'm just as a little adword for
8:14
my hometown, really, really nice town, but clearly a lot of nice
8:21
places. If you ever travel in Germany,
8:23
let me know. I usually know some quite nice
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places to go in Germany and Europe.
8:28
Anyway, identity verification, it is essential because at the
8:36
end of the day of everything we do in security or most we do in
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security at least. And when you look at zero trust,
8:42
for instance, it starts with identity.
8:45
It's Martin using a device to authenticate.
8:49
But is it really Martin? And I think this is the big
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question behind identity verification.
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This is really Martin. Can we assure that it is him or
9:01
someone or something else? So, so identity verification is
9:08
important that we, we need different levels of assurance
9:13
for depending on what we are doing.
9:15
So it's not everything is based on a super, super strong
9:19
verification there. There clearly are different
9:24
levels and we have this in, in the concepts or level of
9:26
assurance etcetera. So it's, it's nothing
9:29
fundamental in you. I personally believe that that
9:32
we're will see a strong uptake. We definitely will see a strong
9:36
uptake over here in Europe because when the EU digital
9:43
identity wallets, UDI wallets come out in 2026 or a bit later,
9:51
then a verified identity will be an essential element within this
9:56
decentralized identity and wallet concept.
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So we will need to do the verification.
10:02
We also, I think we need to move forward and this is what, what,
10:06
for instance, decentralized identity will allow to, to be
10:10
able to reuse identity verification.
10:14
We need to make it also or simplify it.
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Especially what I really don't like is, is everything where,
10:23
where you have a human involved in the verification.
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So because these things tend to be cumbersome even for me and I
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would say I'm, I'm a somewhat experienced IT user.
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And if, if I feel this is this is really cumbersome and
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complex, then it's probably not an ideal solution yet.
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So yes, we, we need to do it. The question I, I would raise is
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how will will this look like in the future?
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So, So what do do we do? How we do we reuse it?
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Maybe at some point when you look at all the shared signal
10:59
stuff, maybe even have enough or sufficient signals that we can
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be assured that it is Martin because it's a device, it's the
11:10
location, it's the things that are done, etcetera.
11:13
Maybe we can at some point use signals and maybe even that need
11:18
to authenticate in a traditional manner anymore.
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So I think there are a lot of things we can can think about,
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we can discuss where we are just still at the beginning.
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So I think identity verification is a market that will grow
11:32
because we need it. We need a short identity, but we
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need to also to to make it very smooth, very simple and
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reusable. Because, as I've said, the most
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annoying thing is if you have to go through cumbersome processes
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again and again and again. Yeah, right.
11:50
It's an interesting how you started off with the focus on
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levels of assurance. My first use case that I ran
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into regarding identity verification was with the
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university in the US and actually I don't think that it
12:08
was University of Texas, right? So all people who are on campus
12:12
had to show up and present their driver's license or some other
12:17
government issued ID in order to get a school ID and then in
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order to get a set of credentials or I'm sorry, to
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elevate their credentials so they can access certain
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applications. This was around the 2013
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fourteen time frame. So this was quite a while ago,
12:36
10 years ago. The all that was not a big deal
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because it was all very pre COVID and it was a very on
12:46
premise group of people. However, they did have satellite
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locations. I believe one was in Israel and
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the folks there in Israel, they, they still had to go through
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this identity verification process, but they couldn't fly
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all the way to Austin, TX to do it.
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So required like faxing and you know, scanning their IDs and
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things like that. So it became such a, a
13:13
cumbersome process for those folks.
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Now Fast forward to today, you talked about the process where
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we do identity verification for, you know, in the United States,
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we have to do it for submitting our taxes online or to, you
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know, to access the IRS website. It, it can be very cumbersome.
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I mean, the process itself is pretty smooth, but if it can't
13:39
recognize your ID or doesn't recognize a match, then it needs
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to go to a human. You might have to wait 45
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minutes to get in with a human. It's very cumbersome.
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So kind of in my book anyway, it's like the the level of
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assurance we'd like to have identity verification for
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anything that's more than maybe social media.
14:02
Yeah. But it's too cumbersome.
14:05
Yeah, and interesting. You know, when you take your IRS
14:08
use case, it is something you must do.
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When you apply for a job, it's something you want to do or for
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the university, for the higher education.
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But if you go to e-commerce, you trust may say, OK, then I go
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somewhere else. If you go to, if you deal with
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Tychos, with banks, all these use cases.
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So if bank account opening is too complex with the one bank,
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you go to the next one. Maybe these are things where
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where it's really about the business.
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In some scenarios it is just that you're obliged to do it.
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So they they, they, so to speak, a government can afford to keep
14:48
it complex because people must do it, others can't.
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And so we need to make it to simplify it.
14:56
I think this is this is a very important point, but you bring
14:59
up also an interesting aspect when I go back to my keynote, I
15:03
think it was last year's Eici talk about decentralized
15:07
identity. And one of my samples was a flow
15:12
that goes from the sort of the initial verification to access
15:20
to IT systems when you're working for instance, as a
15:25
consultant at a, at a customer. So, so you have the
15:30
verification, your wallet and then you can onboard to an
15:36
employer because you have a verified identity.
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In that case, you can do the onboarding to the employer.
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That employer adds additional verifiable credentials like
15:46
you're at coping and Co analysts, you're the principal
15:48
analyst or a principal analyst with that information.
15:53
Then you may say, OK, I'm in a project at company X and the
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company X then says, OK, you're employed there.
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You're you're really Martin Copinger.
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They have the data, which saves them, by the way, a ton of money
16:07
when you you also have been working at consulting at other
16:12
companies. And sometimes you you spend
16:15
really hours for just getting a badge.
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You can automate everything. You can simplify this process
16:23
and you don't pay advice for a consultant half a day for
16:29
nothing. That doesn't make sense, but you
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can we can avoid it. And then then you could say, OK.
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And right now, Martin isn't this project and this role.
16:39
And in an ideal world, the access to whatever the tools,
16:44
the websites, the information would be granted automatically
16:47
based on all the attributes, 0 friction by just one identity
16:53
verification, real massive process, cost savings, higher
16:59
security, all doable. So we need it and we need to get
17:03
much better on that. And we we need, I think again,
17:07
back to the level of assurance. What, what, what I feel is also
17:11
around the UDI wallet frequently is, is the challenges that a lot
17:16
of people, especially in Germany being a bit more paranoid on
17:20
that side. Maybe on average we're thinking
17:23
about always the highest level of assurance.
17:26
We don't need the highest level of assurance for everything.
17:29
We need to only for very few use cases, even in government
17:32
interactions for many of the things we don't need the highest
17:35
level of assurance we can do today a lot of things where we
17:39
don't need the the highest level of assurance.
17:44
And that that is where we should think about what is it really?
17:48
How can we do this created. But clearly if we have a
17:52
reusable verifiable identity in place, it's super powerful.
17:56
What I fear is that we end up with 100 wallets from 100 banks.
18:02
Doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense.
18:07
Don't go for individual wallets, go for reusable identities.
18:13
Yeah, that's where I, I share that same fear because at any
18:17
given point people are going to trust or not trust any of these
18:20
wallets. And so what's the point of
18:23
having multiple wallets, the whole point of one wall and to
18:26
keep everything if I have to carry around 7:00 or 8:00 or 10
18:29
different wallets that totally defeat the purpose.
18:31
Now we just created another version of the password.
18:33
And that's what I'm, that's what I'm most afraid of in this
18:36
decentralized sort of idea is trust at any given point, and
18:42
I'll just speak on the US side, half the population doesn't
18:45
trust the government, doesn't matter who's who's in charge.
18:48
The other half doesn't like that.
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So, you know, if government isn't an option, then what is?
18:54
Is it education? Well, not everybody is an
18:56
education. Is it healthcare?
18:58
Not everyone, at least in the US, has healthcare.
19:00
Is that finance? Not everyone, you know, may have
19:03
the same financial, you know, access things like that.
19:07
So I am concerned about that, about that just like you
19:10
mentioned, Martin. I honestly I I've heard don't
19:13
believe that we only will have one wallet.
19:16
It will be probably more than one wallet.
19:18
And we also probably should should think about is not really
19:21
as a wallet because there will be so much in that.
19:23
It's way too big for a wallet. It's it's, it's, it's really
19:28
more than that. It's a drawer or or even a a set
19:31
of this. But I believe that we will have
19:34
more than one, partly for the trust reasons.
19:37
You may use the government one only for the things where you
19:39
deal with the government, but you don't want to have many.
19:44
So the number will be, I will personally believe a relatively
19:48
low number. It's not a lot about us.
19:51
I could envision that that we will see also very much purpose
19:54
built. Well wallets like a travel
19:56
wallet that not only sort of holds the information but helps
19:59
you managing all the travel etcetera, which could be
20:03
interesting business case things like that.
20:05
I think this is this is probably more likely to happen when we
20:09
look at this this world of of of wallets.
20:14
The the other thing is trust. I think what we also should
20:18
think about is. How can we build trust?
20:24
We can't build a trust by having one sort sort of one strong
20:29
proof, OK, we trust the government or not.
20:36
And we could also say if we have a lot of college signals again
20:43
that hint in the same direction, you also can build trust because
20:51
I think that's not exact mathematics because there are
20:54
there are overlaps there. So, but at the end of the day,
20:57
if, if one signal has a 90% probability, it also means it
21:02
has a 10% probability of failing.
21:04
If you have a 2nd signal that also has a 10% probability of
21:09
failing and these are these are not overlapping, then the
21:13
probability of failing would be not 10% but 0011 percent.
21:21
So if you have many signals and combine them and they hit in the
21:26
right direction, this is clearly a lot of algorithm stuff
21:29
etcetera and thinking about how do you do it properly but and
21:32
what is when when some signal hints in the opposite direction.
21:38
But basically, you can't build a lot of trust on weaker signals
21:41
if you have enough of them. I think, what can I think the
21:46
only thing that can build trust in the current world is
21:52
openness, Open standards, that you can't go and hide things
21:59
behind the scene, that there is some kind of agreed upon
22:02
standard. Maybe there's some independent
22:06
third party or multiple third parties that verify that this
22:11
wallet meets the standard. So I wanted to.
22:16
Again, again, again, the standard is one thing, but then
22:21
you have a verified identity in the wallet.
22:22
The wallet complies to the standard, but do you trust the
22:28
verification? That's again the point.
22:31
Who was the verifier? If you're that, that's maybe
22:35
something, you know, if we if we go through the verification more
22:39
than once, so we have a reusable identity, but we have three
22:42
independent verifications in the same wallet, then then you know,
22:46
someone can pick and say, OK, I don't trust that party.
22:50
But oh, if this and this also verified it, then it probably is
22:54
correct. So that might be the way we we
22:57
should think about it. That's right.
22:59
You know if. You're if.
23:02
You're talking about like age verification or something like
23:04
that. Whether or not you trust the
23:06
government, you probably trust the driver's license that says
23:11
the person's 21 that can buy this bottle of liquor or
23:14
something like that. So you might not inherently say
23:18
I trust the government with all my private information.
23:21
Yet we, most of us go and get government issued IDs because
23:25
you can't do anything in the world without it.
23:28
You touched on the enterprise use case for identity
23:31
verification. I, I feel that's something that
23:35
has always resonated with me where I could bring in a new
23:38
employee. No lives, nowhere close to an
23:41
office. You know, I know I've joined
23:43
companies and not gone to offices for the first year or
23:48
more without going to one of the physical locations.
23:53
I've always thought like if you could do the identity
23:56
verification process for those people especially, but also like
24:00
to fill in. You know, we have a form in the
24:02
US called I think it's the I-9 where it's like basically you
24:06
get into the tax system that hey, you now work here and all
24:10
that. The data is the same.
24:12
If you could bring that and just plug it in.
24:15
I think that the idea is great, but I don't see many companies
24:20
saying, all right, that's a big enough of a problem for me to go
24:23
out and buy a product to solve that issue.
24:26
Even if I have a lot of employees, say 100,000
24:30
employees, I probably don't have a big enough of A use case in
24:33
one central HR system where you know, that wouldn't be an
24:39
integration nightmare. Now, however, if it was a
24:42
feature of a product that I already own, I might flip the
24:46
switch and start using that feature, at least for some
24:49
subset of the use case. So long way of getting to my
24:52
question, which is identity verification.
24:56
Is it a standalone product or should it be, or a feature of
25:01
something else like your identity management system?
25:06
Service short answer. So you had this long questions
25:14
or I decided for the? Yeah, yeah, the answer is
25:18
fantastic. I almost missed it.
25:20
You must be a service that can be consumed and integrated.
25:24
Yeah. So a service that can be
25:26
consumed and integrated into your onboarding, however that
25:30
takes place. Correctly.
25:33
OK. So I don't think that it makes
25:35
sense to to build take the technology again and again and
25:38
again. So my colleague Annie currently
25:43
is working on the leadership composite identity verification
25:45
and I think her her preliminary list was in this 300 plus vendor
25:52
range. 300 plus vendors. OK, wow.
25:56
OK, so and and all doing it a bit different.
26:00
So, so selecting the ones and and saying, OK, this is the ones
26:04
we look at all AT and and this leadership compass is not not an
26:07
easy thing. Yeah.
26:10
OK. So this gets speed.
26:12
Thank you. So I think what you're basically
26:14
talking about is like orchestrating some kind of
26:16
onboarding workflow to tap into a third party service that would
26:23
then, you know, verify the credential, redirect back, let
26:27
the company know the person's BeenVerified, etcetera.
26:30
Unless you do it with decentralized identities, which
26:32
would be definitely for the future the smartest way to do
26:35
it. OK, so Speaking of the.
26:38
Future that that would be I I believe the smartest, smartest
26:41
way to do it and you know it. It's like like you have have
26:47
whatever a batch, a corporate batch etcetera for entering the
26:50
building etcetera. You also can either add
26:54
something to a wallet makes more sense or or issue your corporate
26:58
wallet if you already want to go down that path.
27:02
But but it's still then you, you do you have ways to do to do
27:05
that in a in a smart manner and re reuse things.
27:08
And then the service would be basically serving sort of the,
27:14
the ones who are issuing the credentials into the wallets or
27:18
to the holder correctly. I think it's also something we
27:21
we need to be very, very precise on the, the the basic
27:25
decentralized anti model is not a wallet model.
27:28
It's a issuer to hold or to verifier, but the wallet is
27:33
trust the technical means to hold verifiable credentials.
27:37
So we anyway put way too much emphasis on on the wallet and
27:41
not on the holder. And that's also why I believe
27:44
we, we should think always about people having more than one
27:47
wallet, having the same credential, multiple wallets
27:49
that are giving them the choice, because this is really the
27:53
holder focused on the thinking, which makes more sense than the
27:57
wallet thinking of today. Interesting.
28:00
So I've been wanting to figuring out how to bring up this topic.
28:05
So I've been watching a lot of videos lately around AI agents.
28:12
The idea is that the AI agents are, you know, like people.
28:18
They can do things, but they're also like applications.
28:21
I saw a video with Satya Nadellam, the CEO of Microsoft,
28:27
talking about AI agents. He says AI agents are going to
28:31
replace SAS. That's a that's a big statement.
28:35
By coming from him, I put some trust in that, right?
28:39
I mean, he's a visionary. It gets me to also think, you
28:45
know, I'm going to shortcut to, OK, go to a lot of identity
28:49
conferences. Every product is now AI enabled.
28:53
I noticed on your website, All right, I'm sorry, on one of your
28:57
announcers, Cooper Cole's now AI enabled as well.
28:59
So in November, you announced Martin the Chat bot.
29:04
I was wondering if you could tell us about Martin the Chat
29:06
bot. Yeah, so, so first I have to say
29:09
it. It wasn't me who announced it
29:10
and it wasn't me who came up with the name.
29:14
So. So when I heard about that, they
29:16
they intend to call it Martin. I said, Oh no, come on.
29:19
But yeah, I gave up on this conversation basically, to be
29:26
honest, our cooking a call website, we we hadn't a good
29:29
search functionality for many, many years.
29:32
It was really, really not good. So I myself tended to use Google
29:39
or Bing to look for content on our website.
29:43
Right now I only use our search function because it's it's
29:47
really great. So we had have a new search
29:50
functionality. We have to chat bot which
29:54
provides as a relies on ALM model and it uses this retrieval
30:02
augmented generation thing. So it it uses the the content we
30:07
have on the website which is in a lot of places like like
30:11
YouTube etcetera, which is really a ton of content in
30:14
different formats to provide the answer.
30:17
So this is basically what what we did and I think it simplifies
30:20
really the access to our information, which is also very
30:24
important because you're pushing out this membership and then or
30:27
pushing the membership model more these days, enabling people
30:32
to get access to all of our research in a very flexible
30:34
manner. So, so I think if you, if you
30:39
clearly, if you have this membership, then you also should
30:42
enable people to find what they need to get the answers they
30:44
need. And talking to this virtual
30:49
Martin Chile is one element in that.
30:54
While the membership also offers a lot of other benefits, like
30:58
the ability to talk to the real market and even things like
31:02
that, which may even be more interesting.
31:05
But I think it, it makes very clear where I see AI it it's in
31:09
that sense of augmenting intelligence, it helps people to
31:13
do things better. Like the like it doesn't in most
31:16
areas where we use AI and and assistance system and a vehicle,
31:20
which is usually in some way AI powered, basically augments the
31:25
driver, helps doing the job of a driver in this case, safety, for
31:31
instance, better. So yes, that's there.
31:36
To your point around will AI replace SAS?
31:42
I think it's, it's, it's a bit of an oversimplification.
31:46
Sorry, Sacha, because there are elements which you clearly can
31:52
do better and different when it comes to looking up data, when
31:57
it comes to to accessing information etcetera, searching
32:00
for information, combining information out of different
32:03
sources, there's a clear advantage.
32:05
But there are a lot of things which are really form based
32:08
processes like invoicing, stuff like that, which are commonly
32:13
run a SAS, which probably will not be easily replaced.
32:17
But you don't have that kind of innovation that, you know, a lot
32:19
of things we do with IT, service management, for instance,
32:23
basically, at least we'll run through a very different
32:25
interface and I'll see, see some interesting start-ups these
32:29
days, for instance, in the identity management space, which
32:31
come up with, in fact, AI layers that allow you to, to get all
32:38
what you need, like the report, the data, the stuff out of your
32:42
world with a simple natural language query.
32:47
So these are things. And we, we are also covering
32:51
some of these vendors in our new format, the rising star format,
32:55
where we look at, at vendors that are very innovative, young,
33:00
relatively small, but, but growing and, and have a very
33:03
strong product market fit. And this is where we already
33:06
covered one or two of these because I think this is another
33:09
area where, where I see a huge potential for that.
33:12
So I I think it will not replace everything, but it will clearly
33:16
have a huge impact, especially when it comes to getting data
33:23
out of all these sources we have.
33:29
Yeah, I kind of feel like if Martin and I came up, here's one
33:34
thing you have to do. If you're an identity, you have
33:36
to come up with the right acronym.
33:39
So I came up with an acronym for you.
33:41
I'm not saying it's the final one, I just thought of it.
33:44
MARTN stands for Machine and AI Research Trained Neuro Network
33:52
and was a tough one, right? Neuro Network was the IT buzz
33:55
term for a while and never became anything right so.
34:00
Maybe you, you, you. You just say nerd.
34:05
There you go, trained nerd because like a person.
34:08
But here's here's my thought. So you take you're, you're
34:15
taking Cooper Cole's complete body of research or whatever you
34:19
have in terms of research, and then you let the AI loose on it
34:24
in terms of learning it. Now, one thing, I don't know if
34:29
you heard the study that that happened recently where they
34:32
said they, they took sick patients and they had a doctor
34:38
analyze them to come up with, you know, here's what illness
34:42
you have and here's the treatment plan.
34:43
They had an AI do it and they had a doctor with an AI.
34:48
And that was the order that they or I'm sorry, the order that
34:51
finishes the most accurate was AI was the most accurate.
34:56
The doctor by himself or herself was the second most accurate.
35:00
The third most accurate was the doctor with the AI.
35:04
So potentially the doctor over ruling the AI and inserting the
35:07
wrong answer and it got. Or or or or or not really
35:12
trusting the AI and things like that.
35:15
I think for AI we need a very proper quality assurance.
35:20
So we need to to look at the results.
35:22
I've heard the belief that humans add a value to AII think
35:26
there are things where AI is excellent, There are things
35:29
where AI is horrible. So for instance, when when I use
35:33
the the bottom on the KG website, then then the links are
35:39
correct. When, when I ask ChatGPT to
35:43
generate a list of links to some research of co.com, then there's
35:50
a bit of a tendency of ChatGPT to hallucinate and coming up
35:55
with links where I would say, hey, these are great research
35:59
topics. We should do that.
36:01
But all of them lead to an four O 4 message not found.
36:07
So I think I think I, I, I would be careful with with studies
36:12
which say that the AI is always the best.
36:15
I think a well trained AI in, in medicine definitely provides a,
36:19
a huge value. And, and so I think there, there
36:25
are really use cases where, where, where it's super, super
36:31
powerful to, to just bring up an anecdote and that everyone may
36:36
like that anecdote or the theme of the anecdote.
36:39
But I, I am, I'm in an age where you have to do a colonoscopy.
36:48
I think it's the term every couple of years.
36:52
Some of you may have undergone that already.
36:54
And, and I did this, this time being awake.
36:59
So there was this huge monitor, there was the doctor that was me
37:03
and I could visit it and I could then see situations where the AI
37:09
hinted on something. So there was nothing severe or
37:12
anything by that, but the AI hinted on something which the
37:14
doctor didn't spot. And so AI done right in medicine
37:19
is, is super powerful thing. And I found it by the way, I
37:23
found it super, super interesting to do to do this
37:26
awake because it, it's really, really interesting, I believe,
37:29
but not everything likes the the, the sort of doing
37:33
colonoscopy being awake anyway, I think that there there's a
37:38
huge value, but we also know, I think everyone of us using AI
37:42
knows that sometimes results are better, sometimes they are
37:45
worse. So, but I, I, I think if, if we,
37:52
we, we should learn to, to make the right use of it.
37:56
I think this is the, this is the point if, if a good doctor will
38:03
understand where it delivers value and where he or she still
38:10
is needed with, with the other knowledge.
38:12
And the other thing is creating something new.
38:15
Thinking beyond this is or is not really the domain of
38:20
something that relies on existing data.
38:22
So it's refactoring, combining, lesser than inventing.
38:29
It can't help in inventing, it cannot help in creating things.
38:33
But it I think they're still plated for for humans.
38:38
Yeah, I I kind of feel like AI, if you give it enough
38:44
information, it can learn the information and kind of have
38:49
rate values and rate answers better than a human can, just
38:54
like a calculator can perform better than any human when it
38:58
comes to doing mathematical equations.
39:02
I also think so I, I thought about the Martin the chat bot
39:08
and number one, it's available 24 hours a day, right?
39:12
So your clients can get in there and they can answer questions 24
39:15
hours a day. But I was interested to see
39:17
whether you would say that the chat bot could replace the
39:22
analysts in those terms in terms of answering questions for your
39:26
customers or if you thought because I I think when it comes.
39:31
To I think. It's research level, yes, I
39:35
think that is what where it's really about deep interaction
39:37
workshop really where it's about generating new ideas very, very
39:43
rapidly. Like I do for instance, when we
39:45
do, we do when we run advisory workshops etcetera.
39:48
Then it's, then it's really that I think it's, it's a, it's for a
39:55
lot of standard questions, wonderful and even complex
39:59
standard questions. But really there's a point where
40:02
where the human interaction, the conversation, the, the, the
40:06
thinking also adds to the So I, I don't see that I, I will be
40:12
replaced. I, I think it's great not to
40:15
that there's something which does a lot of work, but there's
40:20
also an area where I believe it's relatively difficult to
40:24
replace a smart analyst. Hopefully I'm smart and and so,
40:30
so, so I think that's at the end.
40:35
As of that, I think it's about using it the right way.
40:39
Yeah. So I wanted to switch topics a
40:43
little bit because around the same time, November time frame,
40:46
you guys released the Leadership Compass for Access Governance.
40:50
You released Leadership Compasses throughout the year,
40:53
but specifically Access Governance, which is more or
40:58
less like what some folks call identity governance, but, you
41:03
know, doing recertification of access that's already been
41:07
provisioned. This is a market that has been
41:11
in existence for a long time. Is there anything exciting here?
41:18
You know, I think the the perspective on what, what
41:21
someone perceives as exciting, they are, they're very
41:24
different. So clearly probably exciting is
41:31
a big term here. So it's basically what we did.
41:34
We released on leadership commerce, on IGA identity
41:36
governance and administration. Then we released another one on
41:38
IHED identity and access governance, which is basically a
41:42
subset of the broader IGA field. And we just did a separate one
41:46
because we still see in the market demand by a lot of
41:50
organizations for, for specialized IHE solution.
41:55
Basically we we see even the demand for two types of IG.
41:57
So uses the general purpose IG so to speak that are more on the
42:02
IGA side of things serving sort of every type of application to
42:08
a certain level, providing role management, recertification also
42:12
usually some level of access request and approval, stuff like
42:16
that, auditing, analytics, blah, blah, blah.
42:19
And then we have the the other specialized form which really
42:21
focuses on the the ERP, the line of business applications.
42:26
So the stuff which is frequently called Application Access risk
42:31
management or whatever the ARMARA A/C application access
42:35
control application. Talking like SAPGRC.
42:38
Something like SAP Access Control which is commonly
42:41
referred to as SAPGRC, but isn't named SAPGRC.
42:46
But yes, totally correct. So, so this is, this is really
42:53
funny in some, some way because this product, the name changed
42:56
many years ago, but I, I would say it's still the, the vast
43:00
majority calls it SAPGRC and that SAP access control.
43:05
And then by the way, SAP has another second product in this
43:08
domain as well as the cloud IAG cloud identity access
43:12
governance, which is the sort of the the, the, the the pure
43:17
product to SAP access controller TRC covering it different
43:25
systems at a bit in a bit of a different form.
43:28
So for free coverage, you would probably need pose.
43:32
So we have we have this need for specialised solutions still.
43:35
And that is the reason why we did the leadership combust that
43:39
for instance, companies that have an A legacy or let's say
43:44
long established to avoid this actually term legacy.
43:48
A mature identity provisioning solution blaze for for many
43:54
years a day may may see the need for quickly adding some more
43:58
access governance capabilities, for instance for regulatory
44:00
compliance for that type of organizations that there's a
44:05
need for specialized IH solutions.
44:09
Yeah, I, I've seen a lot of the new vendors in the space focus
44:14
on I AG or access governance, identity governance as a kind of
44:20
stepping stone toward becoming a full-fledged IGA solution.
44:26
I think that's what we're going at.
44:28
But they tend to have some kind of specialized focus on
44:32
governance. So it's the use of AI or the
44:37
ability to drill down and say who has access to what data
44:41
elements. It is something different than
44:44
just, you know, roles, entitlements there.
44:46
The other end of the spectrum is large identity vendors or large
44:54
vendors that have an identity product that are saying, oh,
44:57
that's a gap in our solution. Now we need to do IGA and, and
45:02
from what I've seen, mostly they provide governance over what's
45:08
in their data store, what's in their directory.
45:12
So I think of Okta, I think of Microsoft.
45:16
I'm actually wondering what your your view is on how much
45:20
progress Microsoft has made in this area.
45:23
You know, to the extent that you know, where are they heading and
45:26
how far are they into that journey.
45:28
Yeah. So I think we we must not
45:31
underestimate Microsoft's never a good idea.
45:34
I think history tells that Microsoft is sort of is enduring
45:43
also in what they are doing. So they they have have a long
45:47
term stretch in identity and security is a very important
45:51
field of business nowadays for Microsoft.
45:53
When you look at the entry suite of products, the PureView
45:57
products, etcetera, it's, it's really I think about 40 plus
46:00
products they have in the identity and security space that
46:04
also contribute quite significantly to Microsoft
46:07
revenue. And Microsoft has a ton of
46:09
developers working on these products.
46:12
So they're working on that. I think we, we, we should be
46:17
just clear that Microsoft As for as some of the other large
46:22
vendors don't have the strategy of deep integration with a lot
46:29
of proprietary other solutions. So they they usually rely on
46:33
standards or partners, external parties doing the deep
46:38
integration with some exceptions, which I think is
46:43
fair. And I think which leads also to
46:45
to solutions that might be very, very capable for certain types
46:51
of organizations, certain types of sizes or organizations,
46:54
certain types of complexity, but also leaves room for others for
46:59
specialists that provide more capabilities, more depths,
47:05
etcetera. So when when I look at most of
47:08
the the end user organizations, I talked with them, many of
47:13
these have Microsoft or Google or someone else in in place from
47:17
the very large sort of IT vendor software vendors, but usually
47:23
complement this in certain defined areas with other
47:27
solutions, especially when when these are larger organizations
47:30
than this is very common. I think this this also fits very
47:34
well. So we were just yesterday, so
47:37
given the time of the recording, so just mid January, we we
47:44
released our newest version of our identity fabric and of our
47:51
AM reference architecture. And I think these are paradigms
47:55
and approaches that clearly show how that you usually will have
48:00
more than one component and that orchestration that integrates a
48:04
key element. So also for our upcoming
48:07
leadership composite identity fabrics, which will be published
48:10
around EIC, I'm currently working on that identity
48:14
orchestration gets a much higher value because at the end of the
48:21
day, even while you when, when you say some say this is
48:25
whatever my preferred vendor, you usually will have other
48:28
components from the past or to fill gaps.
48:31
And then orchestration is a very essential capability to bring
48:35
all these bits and pieces together.
48:36
Also sometimes to have fall back solution.
48:39
So So what happens if your your primary IDP goes down for a
48:43
while? Or if you need to move away from
48:46
your primary IDP? You have your fall back that at
48:49
least helps your your critical applications running.
48:55
Yeah. I mean, that's the basic pillar
48:59
of business continuity, right? Is that question everything?
49:04
So you mentioned there that you have a piece coming out.
49:07
If you provide us a link, we can put it in the show notes.
49:11
Mark, you've been super generous with your time.
49:15
I did have one other question which I was going to ask
49:17
broadly, but I'm going to narrow it down.
49:19
And so we're sitting here January 20th, look ahead to
49:24
2025. But I'm only going to ask you to
49:27
pick out like one thing to really focus on what is one of
49:31
the the hallmarks of 2025, that in 2026, we're going to say 2025
49:37
was the year of you fill in the blank.
49:42
OK. What is the hottest theme?
49:47
I think very visible non human identity management, a lot of
49:52
stuff going on there. So you could argue that also
49:55
came up in 2024 already. I will think we'll see more more
50:02
around policy based access. We'll see.
50:05
This is maybe the 2026 decent resident when all the wallets,
50:10
the EU, the initial identity wallets come out.
50:15
So a couple of scenes there. So is that there anything
50:23
totally entirely new? I, I think what we, what we see
50:26
maybe from the things we don't have on the radar that much yet,
50:30
that is something we already touched.
50:31
I think we will see a ton of innovation when it comes to
50:35
natural language interfaces for existing types of applications.
50:41
Also an identity management and cybersecurity etcetera.
50:45
Where we have these are separate solutions or layers on top that
50:50
allow us to to, to simplify a lot of tasks by just saying, oh,
50:57
I need access to that. And that's searching for which
51:01
roles and entitlements do I need.
51:03
This is my task. I want to do the task, give me
51:05
the access. And then the system asks the
51:10
manager, oh, is this already something Martin should be
51:14
allowed to do? Oh, only until only for the next
51:18
three months. He's just a temporary
51:20
replacement done that. That will be, I think probably
51:24
of the things we, we don't have to measure.
51:26
The radar will be one of the, the areas that will be big in
51:31
2025 beyond the, the stuff we, we, we commonly have on our
51:38
radar already, which also, by the way, will raise some
51:40
interesting questions like least privilege for AI or for Atlantic
51:52
AI. So and and that will be
51:55
something which is, which is very interesting because it
51:58
depends on in which context is the ancient working for which
52:04
purpose. There are a lot of elements
52:07
which will make this way more dynamic, I would say.
52:11
So what is the least privilege needed to answer a question in a
52:19
rightful manner for Martin? I think no one's thought about
52:23
this before, at least as I I didn't, but I think this will be
52:27
a a really interesting area for Iami.
52:31
Didn't think about it in terms of least privilege for AI, but
52:34
I've been really focused on, OK, well, how do you secure the AI?
52:39
So you're the CEO, somebody else's an analyst in your
52:44
company, Do they have access to the same data today?
52:48
No. With AI or how will AI determine
52:52
what data Martin can access or or if your employees?
52:58
Yeah, that's that's the one thing.
52:59
And the the other thing is how do we ensure, you know, if we
53:04
haven't, if you have a chanting AI that is work that is used by
53:11
a lot of people, how do we ensure that we don't have super
53:18
users there which are way too powerful.
53:24
So how do we do ensure that this all is kept under control?
53:31
I think this entire field, I tend to call it a identity.
53:35
So the intersection of AI and identity is still a pretty much
53:40
a wide space on our technology map.
53:46
We see a lot of start-ups around AI security nowadays, but I
53:51
think we need start-ups around a identity.
53:56
It seems to me that the technology, the functionality is
54:01
going to blaze way past security.
54:04
So it happened with cloud infrastructure I think, and I
54:09
think it'll happen again. I think the fall back will be
54:12
some sort of leveraging legacy permissions, which we already
54:16
know are not good enough. I think that's maybe what you're
54:19
referencing. You have these super users
54:22
administrate system administrators.
54:24
Does that mean the System Administrator can start using AI
54:27
to find out all kinds of information about the company or
54:32
information they they shouldn't have access to?
54:35
Even think about someone having access to the AI.
54:42
Which all, by the way, brings us back to the initial theme,
54:47
identity verified identities. So is it really Martin using the
54:51
AI? And what is the AI supposed to
54:54
do in the context of Martin? And if it's not Martin or if
54:59
someone is is using the AI in different contexts, there might
55:03
be way more information that is to discuss or even if the AI is
55:07
is sort of constrained in what it can do in the context of
55:10
individual. I think this is a very
55:13
interesting field to think about for 2025.
55:19
Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing of we started off the
55:22
conversation with identity verification and now we're
55:24
ending it essentially with identity verification.
55:27
And we talked about AI in the middle and a bunch of other
55:29
stuff. And I was thinking the exact
55:30
same thing as, yeah, this, this, this contextual awareness, this
55:36
identity awareness of who is making the request.
55:40
Or maybe you know what is making the request because it could be
55:42
a non human identity querying another non human identity.
55:46
What are the rules for the different data sets that each
55:50
can have access to and the types of queries it can makes and it
55:54
work. We're back to identity
55:55
verification is OK. Well, how do we make sure
55:58
whoever's on the other side of the phone, the API, the text,
56:01
whatever it is, is authenticated to do that transaction and the
56:06
type of transaction you're trying to do?
56:08
I was thinking the exact same thing, Martin, when we were
56:10
talking. Why don't we go ahead and wrap
56:13
up? Martin, you have a gesture time,
56:16
but I do want to pick your brain for just a couple minutes.
56:19
You started off mentioning Stuttgart.
56:21
It is my first time to Germany other than the Frankfurt Airport
56:24
on a way over to Chennai, India. So I'm not going to count that
56:28
because I never left the airport.
56:29
But if I'm going to Germany for the first time and I know I'm
56:33
going to be in Berlin for a week, what is something that I
56:38
have to do as a first timer in Berlin?
56:42
And then from there, would you recommend I go South to like
56:47
Munich or Stuttgart, you know, kind of go southwest or go north
56:51
and sort of Oslo and Copenhagen or go West to like, you know,
56:55
Brussels or Amsterdam or think something like that?
56:58
Like what would be your recommendation?
57:01
Yeah. So, so it depends a bit of
57:03
whether you want to stay within in Germany or whether you want
57:07
to do Europe in three days or something like that.
57:11
I, I, I think that that, that is a, that is a big question.
57:14
So I, I, I think all, many of the places you've mentioned take
57:18
Paris way more to the South, Rome and all the other wonderful
57:24
Italian towns, etcetera. They, they, they, they deserve
57:28
more time. So, so I, I, I wouldn't try to
57:32
squeeze in too much of that. I think when, when you're in
57:37
Berlin and you say, OK, I stay within Germany.
57:43
So I, I just, and then I think the first question was, so it's
57:46
for trim. It's very clear trim needs to go
57:48
South in Germany because trim is into good German food and the
57:54
food on average is becomes better on average when you go
57:59
Southwest and Germany. So probably I'll get some
58:03
comments on that by people who live in other regions.
58:06
But but basically I would say that that is the direction
58:09
Southwest in tendency. You have a lot of good
58:11
restaurants in other areas as well.
58:13
But so that's the standard and generic food.
58:15
So if you go to the local, the traditional local food, then I
58:19
would say the Swabian food. So this area around that is
58:24
probably best one. That's where I live, by the way.
58:31
So if, if you're, if you're into landscape, then there are, there
58:35
are plenty of nice places, but I think it's probably more that
58:37
you say, OK, which towns are, are really beautiful to visit.
58:43
The, the actually the, the typical touristic traditional
58:46
towns, Heidelberg, Rotenberg, etcetera.
58:48
If you like that, if you're up to that.
58:53
As I said, I'm, I'm a fan of Stuttgart.
58:56
It's full of hidden secrets, which makes it a bit more, more
58:58
difficult for visitors. So there are some, some
59:02
wonderful things, Mercedes museum, perfect museum, which
59:06
are very visible. There's for instance, the the
59:09
1st TV tower in that has been built out of concrete.
59:19
So it's the frost worldwide in Stuttgart, it's not the tallest
59:24
anymore, but it's the 1st and it ever will be the first.
59:30
So things like that when you other towns, Hamburg is great.
59:38
I, I learned to laugh during the pandemic when we were not
59:41
weren't allowed to travel abroad.
59:44
I learned to laugh some areas of the Baltic Sea, but that's
59:48
probably more for when you want to do a bit of a longer vacation
59:55
at the coast. There's this region which is
59:59
called fishland ducks things very complicated.
1:00:03
Basically it has has been three islands which converged over
1:00:07
time due to floods, etcetera, which is a wonderful area.
1:00:12
So, so really a lot of things to be Munich, yes, no doubt.
1:00:18
Can be very interesting. So I think a lot of lot of
1:00:22
interesting places and it really depends a bit on what what your
1:00:26
preferences are, how much time you have, what you want to see
1:00:29
and to you and and also the the ones listening to the podcast.
1:00:33
If you want travel tips to Germany, which are biased, sure.
1:00:40
I I admit that I'm biased and my bias goes a bit towards the card
1:00:46
and some other towns, then I feel free to reach out to me.
1:00:52
And that's a fact. If you go picture my, one of my
1:00:56
absolute favorite towns is Paris.
1:01:00
Martin Will EIC be back in Munich in the future?
1:01:05
I have no clue. So I'm, I'm, I'm not in the
1:01:08
organization team of the EIC anyway.
1:01:10
So I don't know whether we will go back to Munich, really no
1:01:16
clue about it. OK, Jeff, I guess my, my input,
1:01:21
I've been to Germany a couple of times that I've been to
1:01:24
Frankfurt. But one thing that stood out to
1:01:26
me that I know I'm going to do is go to, I think I'm getting
1:01:32
the term right, like a beer hall, you know, with the the
1:01:35
raised tables and they bring out these big glasses of beer and
1:01:41
it's a very German experience. There are beer halls in the US
1:01:45
and some of them were very much like that.
1:01:48
But I figure like if you get the real experience in Germany and
1:01:51
then you go back to the US, you can compare and contrast.
1:01:56
I, I, I, I have to admit, I think the last time I have been
1:01:59
in a beer hall probably is about 15 to 18 years ago and the
1:02:07
second last probably more than three decades or so.
1:02:13
So I, I, I think they, they, they are, they are, you find
1:02:18
them especially in the, some of the Bavarian areas where if the
1:02:22
weather is good, always would prefer a beer garden or the beer
1:02:26
hall. So when you're can go outside
1:02:29
that, that's really cool. But they are they are probably a
1:02:35
bit more Bavarian overall. You're giving me a lot to think
1:02:41
about here. And you, you may more Americans
1:02:46
there than Germans. That's.
1:02:47
What I was wondering if it's more like a a tourist thing than
1:02:51
a local thing. I think it started as a local
1:02:55
thing, This phrase it has. Been taken over, but gotcha.
1:02:59
OK, All right, why don't we go ahead and leave it for this
1:03:03
week? But what we don't like.
1:03:04
Anyone else in trouble here? Martin, you're always suggesting
1:03:07
your time and really do appreciate you joining us.
1:03:10
And again, thank you for the invite out to Berlin.
1:03:12
We're looking forward to seeing in a couple months and finally
1:03:15
give you a fist thump of gratitude for being on the show
1:03:17
so many times and sharing your knowledge.
1:03:20
It'll be an interesting year. I, you know, with between AI
1:03:22
identity verification and everything in between and I'm,
1:03:27
I'm, I'm continually excited by all the innovations that are
1:03:31
still happening in the identity space.
1:03:34
I think there's this idea. It's like, oh, well, we've been
1:03:36
doing identity for so long. Like, you know, where does it go
1:03:38
to next? There's always something new to
1:03:40
learn, something's going to change, etcetera.
1:03:42
So it keeps it fresh, which is, which is always what I enjoy
1:03:46
about this industry. So thank you so much for sharing
1:03:48
your thoughts with us. Thank you for inviting me and
1:03:51
looking forward to finally meet you in person in Berlin.
1:03:55
Oh, we, we will hope, hope to not disappoint, right, Jim?
1:04:00
Let's go ahead and wrap it there.
1:04:02
Thank you so much everyone for watching and, or listening.
1:04:04
We'll have links in our show notes for discount code for EIC
1:04:07
as well as connecting with Martin on LinkedIn.
1:04:09
You can share your thoughts about the, the, the, the current
1:04:13
state of beer halls or beer gardens or anything else I'm
1:04:16
sure that that Martin has talked about today.
1:04:18
And you can find us on the web, idacpodcast.com.
1:04:21
And yeah, so thanks for watching and or listening and we'll talk
1:04:25
with you all in the next one. Thank you.
1:04:27
Bye. You've been listening to
1:04:31
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
1:04:35
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
1:04:40
But in the meantime, hit the website at
1:04:42
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
1:04:48
the Center.