Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Relational Trauma in Relationships and Friendships (Part 3 of 3)

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Relational Trauma in Relationships and Friendships (Part 3 of 3) · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I honestly I you're really making me feel better because I had to listen to it three times. Yes. I it was it was a hard lecture for me. And I I took notes. And when I the third time around, I finally finally realized, wait a minute.
• 1:22
  This was stuff that that last lecture, Shevitz Shevitz and Hofting. It's what they discussed. But the thing that was different about this lecture is there were numbers. Like, it was research. It was I mean, they did too, but there was something black and white.
• 1:43
  You couldn't you could not deny it in this lecture. Like, she gave examples of in those videos. Did that those videos, did you those videos. I was just watching it going, oh my goodness. I have missed and, I mean, even in my own clinic, I have missed this.
• 2:05
  Yes. I didn't see what was happening. It was right in front of my eyes, and I had no idea what was happening. It's I I wrote actually wrote this down in my notes that she had a study, and she actually took put those videos up about how she she did a study to talk about the different things that maternal or care the caregivers did that could predict so so maternal disruptive affective communication. Those are big words.
• 2:44
  I had to look that up because that's, you know
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: But when you break it down, when you're talking about what you're communicating through facial expression and through interactions, what you're responding with through the relationship with the child, that that is the trauma as much as what they physically did or sexually did or neglect or anything? Yes. Oh, yes. It changes everything.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: So that's that's good. Thank you. Because I couldn't put words to that, but that's the way it's labeled on my notes. Right? And so she went through withdrawal, verbal confusion, contradictory, affective communication, negative, intrusive behavior, and disorientation.
• 3:33
  None of which were actually actually being mean. Like, there was no. These were not, like, what I would normally associate with abuse.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Right? Right. It completely redefines what abuse is. Entirely redefines what counts as abuse, what abuse is. And but it's not just on paper, it validates what all of us feel but don't have permission to say because of the whole double bind that happens in abuse.
• 4:08
  Like that's what the trauma is. We owe our allegiance to our caregivers because we have to stay alive but they are also the ones hurting us. We have to ask for help but they're the ones who are saying you can't ask for help.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of like, in that in that one video where the child has toys. Okay? This video really bothered me. Oh my gosh. I felt so bad.
• 4:34
  The child had toys, and there's caregiver, the mother, I'm assuming, who I don't know if this was staged or if this is just the way the mother was behaving, but, oh my goodness.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: It was just how she was behaving. It was actual video of actual parenting.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I felt so bad because I've actually done the same thing. So things that she did so on the list of this disrupted effective communication. So the child wanted to come towards the mom. Right?
• 5:09
  And the mom would talk to the child. Instead of going to the child, the mom would talk to the child from a distance. And, basically, what what the the lecturer, Lyons Ruth, doctor Lyons Ruth said is that she played hot potato with the child. She picked the child up, set the child back down, and then tried to distract the child with toys. And the child turned around and went back to her and tried to get her attention again.
• 5:41
  And this really bothered me.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: I It was so unsettling. Oh. It hurt it hurt my heart as a parent because I have worked so hard on attachment with my children. They are adopted from foster care. I know that attachment matters more than anything, especially for them, for any chance of healing.
• 6:07
  And when she showed these things and talked about these things, some of these things were things we were specifically instructed to do.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, really?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Like, for example, the distracting with the toy or, like, meet their need and then let them go so that they can practice going exploring. But she's saying the child will do that when the child is ready. And so, like, it it goes with the research now that's saying babies should not have cried it out. And it goes with the research saying now that that children should be able to sleep in their parents' bed when it's safe and appropriate. You know what I'm saying?
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I totally
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Or or, like, carrying the what is it called in English? The where you carry the baby in the wrap for a long time?
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes. Yes. Swaddling or or even wearing the child in a
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Child wearing. Baby wearing. Mhmm. That that is important.
• 7:07
  And it goes to all these things that we're starting to understand now, but that we literally didn't know because we were taught differently because of what was told at the time. Right. And so in some ways, that's different because doing what we were told and what we were taught. But, also, now as we learn differently, we have to do better.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: And So I don't know. Here's here's can I can I play devil's advocate a little bit? Yes. I I there's another thought. So there's there's there's the thought that you, you know, you want to pay attention to these things and be mindful of them.
• 7:52
  But on the flip side, we need to also remember that I and I again, I'm not well read, so you could correct me if if or I could be misspeaking here. But I feel like I've read somewhere where they have done research. And if you kids are pretty resilient. And if they can get 20 to 30% of high quality attachment, 20 of the time from some good caregiver, I don't know, and maybe maybe I'm butchering this. But but if they can get that attachment attachment and then they can get repair when there's disruption to that attachment, that it doesn't have to be perfect all the time.
• 8:34
  Like, there's a term called good enough. I don't know. Have you heard that?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Well, so what you're talking about is different thing. It absolutely applies, and that is that ruptures are a normal part of relationships, and what is more important is that there is repair. And if there there is repair, the relationship and the attachment is still intact. That Okay. That it is not healthy to have a relationship or an attachment with a friend or a child where there is no rupture because Right.
• 9:12
  You are separate people and ruptures happen, but that you've got to be able to come back to repair. And so this actually goes back to a different thing, which I talked about recently on the podcast about toxic positivity. The problem with toxic positivity is that it pretends there is no rupture. And if you pretend there is no rupture, you cannot repair it. And so it's one thing to have it kinda goes back to your chart about how sadness becomes depression or sadness becomes numb.
• 9:50
  And so it's one thing if for yourself you're trying to keep a positive outlook to encourage yourself and help you open up your cognitive processing to see a broader picture, that's okay. That's your coping skill. But when you take that broader picture and put it on someone else who's actually in a moment of an ongoing trauma or an actual experience of hurting, then you ignore the rupture that they are experiencing of life being good. Because right now it's not good. It's hard.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: But if you sit with them and, like, acknowledge the depth depth of how hard it is and how terrible it is and how much it does hurt and co regulate with them, then you can repair both your relationship with them and their experience with life. But toxic positivity interrupts that process and doesn't let the repair happen because the rupture was never acknowledged. So with our children, it's not that we we're so human. And like this is an example of something we just now learned after years of being told you should parent like this. And us conscientiously doing our best parenting the best way that we know how.
• 11:12
  And so now we know something different and we can go back, even have conversations with our children and say, hey. I have done this in the past because I thought it was the very best way. No. And I'm so sorry that that information was wrong and I'm so sorry that this is what you've been experiencing And from now on, we're going to do it this way. And how do you feel about that?
• 11:35
  And what do you think about that? And having actual conversations so that it gets repaired.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: I see. So it does kind of apply. And I will say, you know, I looked at this, and I was like, I'm guilty of doing withdrawal or rule confusion, but no. Not really rule confusion. That's when you draw attention to yourself when the infant is in need.
• 12:00
  But when you when you tease an infant, see, that's that's something that I had not realized would be naughty. You know? You know, I I, you know, I will not mock the the the baby, but I will, you know, tease them, keep a you know, you know, hide a toy from them and finally give it back to them or whatever. And, you know, I don't know. Does that count as as negative intrusive behavior?
• 12:28
  I I guess I maybe don't understand that.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: So just to think of it in a more neutral example, one of the things that she put on the chart was about making the child wait and delaying your response to them. And Oh. Right? And so for me, that's something that happens a lot simply because I have six children.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: And so it's not that I can be perfect and never make them wait because there are lots of times they literally have to wait their turn even when nothing's wrong. Like waiting for help with their toothpaste or when we had six preschoolers who couldn't tie their shoes. I can't tie six shoes all at once or taking turns saying prayers at night or something. Right? And so they literally have to wait their turn.
• 13:20
  But what I can do is be consistent in that turn taking so that they know it's part of the process and that repair is happening as we go. Or if I if one is coming and I'm already talking to another, I can reach out and hold that one's hand so that they are connected to me so that that need is being met even while they are having to wait for whatever else they're trying to ask.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: So there are ways to repair it. And and other times there's no context or or you can't do anything about it. In your example of teasing the baby, it's one thing to play with the baby in a way that's tearing them up and helping them pass the time or get a shot or have a medical procedure. Like, can think of my daughter when she has her echo to keep her hands away from her chest and pulling all those things off, they do that all the time with her. Right?
• 14:20
  But Right. That's different than taunting a child. Right. And so it's an example of, yes we have to learn and yes we have to do better but we can also have compassion for ourselves even while we're also understanding the experience of our children and I think one reason that we're so sensitive to it is because we know what we went through and we so desperately don't want to be like our own parents.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And obviously that's the deeper, harder, more triggering layer, but it's easier to focus on how can I do better for my children than recognizing, oh, what happened with my parents really was as much of a trauma as when I got beaten for this or for when somebody touched me or whatever the triggering things are of other kinds of abuse? And to see that these relational traumas come up in such simple ways and then see them amplified as we grew up through adolescence and then into adulthood and recognizing this really was that hard, it changes everything we know about abuse.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: But it also gives us hope in offering ourselves healing. I said in an interview when I was in another interview, I said that sometimes we those of us who have DID feel crazy because of voices or because of intrusive symptoms like flashbacks or or or getting confused about where we are or when we are or things like that. But sometimes we feel crazy because the things that were the hardest, it it doesn't make sense that it should be hard for us, like making friends or Yes. Responding to friendship or knowing how to initiate with friendship or what do I have to offer friendship or things like that where I can watch other people do these very normal things so easily. And for me, I'm panicking inside because it's so difficult to even understand what's happening in front of me that I'm so busy processing that and trying to understand it that I can't participate in it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I think that's very powerful that you're sharing that because that was a real eye opener for me. You talk about how there's so many things going on in your mind. And when they explained how, you know, simple responses, you know, a person's interacting with another person and on the surface, what it looks like to the outside world is they've had this simple interaction. But there's there's a term that, I think it was used. He talked about, scripts that, you know, play out based on past experiences.
• 17:19
  Do you know what I'm talking about? He talked about, like yeah. Okay. So so, like, a person is interacting and on the outside, that's that's a simple interaction. Right?
• 17:29
  But on the inside, that person is trying to decipher and I don't wanna speak for him. I'm I'm speaking just trying to absorb what he said and try to play it put it into perspective of what you may be experiencing when you said there's a lot going on in your mind. It's almost like you you have these scripts going through your mind, and you're having to decipher you you might feel like this could be a dangerous situation because of those scripts, and you're having to put together memory time and now time and trying to make sense of all of that. And some you know, you may feel that it's super dangerous, but is it? You know?
• 18:12
  I guess I I don't know. Does that make sense?
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: It does. But but for me, what it did was even redefine memory time because I thought memory time was just in the past, and memory time was just when I got hurt or bad things happen. But what this does is redefine even memory time to the habits and patterns of interactions with my parents. So disrupted my development even without physical or sexual abuse that I'm not functioning as I should be able to function now in now time. So this whole thing about relational trauma is exactly how memory time invades now time.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I see. That makes so much sense. There's so many layers. Is.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And so when there's a specific abuse incident like a physical abuse or sexual abuse or something that's a specific incident and memory time invades now time, then the therapist from Oklahoma was right that memory time does not have the power to change now time even though it invades now time. And that's why now time is still safe. But, this is also why just getting grounded doesn't always work because it's not always about a specific incident that happened. Sometimes it's about the relationship or the relational pattern and whether our needs were met or not met or how we were dismissed instead of attended to or how what we felt didn't count because it was the wrong thing. Like there's so many pieces to this.
• 20:07
  I can't even process it more than that right now.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Alright. No. But you're doing so phenomenal because it's it's complicated. It's like you peel back one layer and then you're like, but that would affect you know, if you're talking about a simple interaction, like a script of, you know, someone I don't even know. I'm I'm probably getting this wrong.
• 20:34
  But if, you know, you you have someone who interacts, you know, simply, they're just they're just making a joke, let's say. And you can have a simple flashback that is simple. They're never flash
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: flashbacks. It's content based. The simple flashback, even though it's terrible, is content based. Exactly. Exactly.
• 20:56
  And this is process based.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Because, like, if you're talking about something that's relational, there's layers of reactions to that because you have that there's kind of a gut reaction and instinctual, this is a good interaction or this is a bad interaction. But if that script is based on something that is deep down into the brain, you know, it's something that that it happened in memory time, but it's how you interacted with a caregiver. So it's a source of what should have been good and kind and caring and somebody who actually cared for you, but that was not the experience you had. That's, like, that's not something that you don't remember that experience.
• 21:45
  At least I wouldn't think you would. Right?
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Well and I thought I thought in the past I mean, like, before from therapy, like, just a year ago, I thought when the therapist says, I'm safe, you can trust me because it's now time and I'm safe. I thought that was content of this is reality now and if I can work hard enough to stay in now time reality, then I can believe you because you are safe and that's a fact and I can know it. But this about relational trauma and how it changes you neurobiologically and is so much worse even than physical or sexual abuse, the problem is that I literally don't have the DNA structure to do that. Right. And so it's, I feel until that moment of this conference, I felt like I had failed therapy because no matter what she did right and she was amazing and no matter how good she did or how hard she worked, I couldn't get to where she was saying.
• 23:00
  Other than getting good at giving an illusion of practicing it because I believed in her. So I was trying, but it's not the same as feeling it all the way through or experiencing the same way she's feeling. It's like the difference between drawing it on paper and actually living something. I can look at a photograph or I can be in that place. And I was still looking at a photograph and I thought I was failing, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't whatever enough to be able to know and hold on to now time is safe.
• 23:40
  But this conference said I literally don't have the biological structure to be able to do that yet.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Yet. And that's the key. Because I think if I'm understanding this correctly, that working in therapy, the goal is you can rewrite. You can build those muscles.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: It can heal. So so this is an example of the metanarrative of the rupture and repair because you have to acknowledge how ruptured it is before you can repair it. But acknowledging Yes. How the pervade this goes back to pervasive. How pervasive the disruption of the attachment is and how it really has impacted every area of your life and your functioning in the present moment, not just in memory time.
• 24:38
  Once you also see that, then you can start repairing it through therapy and through friendships with safe and good people where both of those things happen. So like a year ago, I thought if I make a friend and can stay in that friendship I will learn these things, I will practice these things and I can get better at them but that's not enough. About the other person too you have to actually receive the caregiving and those needs actually be met for it to work.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: You know, that goes back to the whole shame, the shame that re re that results from ruptures, these withdrawal or role confusion and such, because they're shame reactions. Right? Because at least that's my understanding.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Well, those things are shame is relational a relational subject. I mean, you it can't be repaired by just knowing how to respond or knowing that you're safe. You like you said, you have to have that other person that helps in that repair. Right?
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Right. And that is why when a survivor finds a good therapist, it is so very good. And why when they find an okay therapist or a neutral therapist or a not very good therapist, it's also very bad. Yes.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Because, you know, just like in that lecture by doctor Shevitz, he talked about how something you know, you have a person who is their use their script tells them it's going to happen a certain way, so they're already hypervigilant. Hypervigilant. It only takes a small little thing that can trigger as in, like, trigger a flashback, but trigger as in that that response or that script, and it plays out. And he talked about how in therapy, it's looking at that response. And I hate to use this word.
• 26:58
  Maybe there's a better word. But may maybe make these better connections that this was the response to what happened. So you have to be able to openly explain what happened. And this is the response we had. And was that script based on our relationship, or was that script that played out or that reenactment that played out based on another relationship?
• 27:25
  And then the healing comes, you know, being able to build up these structures that light up on MRI. The healing comes when you have that repair so that you've had that conversation about what happened. You talk about how that relates to the relationship between the therapist and the person or the clinician and the person, and you talk about that we worked through it, we got through it, and we are still okay so that there's no shame. And then those structures repair because what we're basically doing is we're building up, you know, these these MRIs, they light up or they don't light up based on trauma. And these you know, we go back to the lecture about, DID versus non DID.
• 28:22
  Certain parts of the brain lit up because other parts were shut off. But if and and and it's definitely distinctly different than somebody who has regular PTSD, and I hate to say regular because, again, I'm not trying to belittle anybody's experience. But somebody who has relational trauma tends to fall into more of the DID, realm, and somebody with post traumatic stress disorder that was not relational, not full of dissociation falls into another realm, those are distinctly different on scans. Yes. And that comes back down to the relational trauma.
• 29:05
  And so in therapy, if we are working with our therapist and we have these moments where a script plays out, if the person is able to actually have a good relationship with a therapist and be able to say this is what happened and therapist is actually able to key into what's happening and have that discussion and resolve that, those help certain parts of the brain light up that wouldn't normally and certain parts of the brain not light up with which would normally light up. And that's how that's how everything is reconnected. So new pathways form, and you don't have the the neuroception that happens in trauma.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Right. And then it plays out in real life. So when I was learning how to make friends, I was so focused on safety, who does not hurt me, who does not abuse me, like so focused on that PTSD incident specific kind of safety that I kept making friends with people who were safe in those ways, but who did not treat me well. And so even when I thought I was doing everything right, I reenacted my abuse over and over and over with these bad relationships. And so then I thought I need more Mark Linnington at the conference called it interest sharing.
• 30:31
  I need someone else who shares my interest and maybe my values a little bit so that can be more on the same page. And so then I added that to my list, and I had a friend who was good and safe and also had children and so we could get along well, but the way she treated her children and the way she treated me were not okay, but I couldn't figure out why it was triggering me because it was not triggering me because I had not been treated that way in the past. What was triggering me was that the needs were not getting met. So that that was not a relationship that was going to work. I mean, friendship, I'm not talking about anything sexual or dating, just a friendship, right?
• 31:18
  And so then, I next met a person who was good and kind and safe and treats people very well and that's wonderful. She's a wonderful person. I have nothing bad to say about her and when I see her, we connect just fine and we do just fine but she is not a close friend to me. There's no intimacy with her because she is not responsive. Ah.
• 31:47
  And so for her, her style without anything wrong, not a terrible person, is not what I need because I had a very my attachment disruptions are about my needs not being met or attended to. And I don't mean I have to be the center of attention. I don't mean that I am super needy or need lots of reassurances even, but when I do share something with someone, it's very hard for me to do. And so when I do, I need a response back even if it's just letting me know that they got that or that we connected. And I don't even just mean like a messaging.
• 32:30
  I mean, even in real life, I need some sort of response because for me it was danger for it to just be out there because I don't know how they're going to respond. Right. And so the people now in my life who I am finally for the first time being able to get close to them and to trust them and to feel safe with them and to respond in friendship ways with them as well, are because they are safe and they are also good and kind but they are also responsive. And so I've literally been able to build attachment because those people respond to me. Like you for example when I had coronavirus.
• 33:20
  Just being present with me in that, responding to that, checking on that, that caregiving offered to me helped me develop attachment in new ways never before. And then because of that, my healing skyrocketed in good and beautiful ways because I could see and experience the world differently than I ever had before.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Aw. You're gonna make me cry.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense though? So It does. Look how much I learned through that because the one person, the first friend was not a bad person at all. She was just not the right person for me to develop a deep friendship with. It doesn't make her bad.
• 34:03
  There doesn't have to be any drama. It's just not a match for what my needs are and my caregiving is and hers are and what her needs are. The other one is an amazing, wonderful person who is good and kind and wonderful, but does not respond at all. She's not responsive. It's her own stuff and her own style and her own whatever and it's not about me.
• 34:26
  She's like that consistently with other people. So we can love her and she can be good but because she does not respond, I cannot attach to her. And so I trust her, I feel safe with her, but I don't connect with her and I don't give pieces of myself away to her. Right. But now for the first time in my own life one pattern of incidents.
• 35:06
  It was relational trauma through relationships and the only way that's going to get better or the only way I'm going to be able to connect with other people is through people being responsive. And part of that includes includes me getting to be who I am and all of who I am. And I don't just mean parts. I mean someone can't come to me and say, because this happens when you have a podcast, someone can't just come to me and say, we share all of these things in common and so I think we would be good friends. But to me a friend means this and so you have to do it this way and it's only meaningful to me when you do it this way.
• 35:49
  That's a different thing than just knowing yourself and what is responsive to you or not. Yes. Because that dismisses part of who I am. So when I see my friend, for example, that's not responsive, I don't hate her. I do not like her.
• 36:05
  I just recognize that's part of who she is. She's a wonderful person, but I can't connect there. It's not meaningful to me.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: And what's most important is you recognize that nothing is wrong with yourself. Right. That's huge. Because what I'm hearing you say is you're starting to recognize and accept, which is hard, I think, even for myself, is that they have needs, you have needs, and nobody is bad if those if everything the needs and the reassurance and the responsiveness. If it's not a good match, nobody has to be the bad person.
• 36:45
  There's not a good or bad. It's just it just isn't the connection's not there.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Right. And so what I learned for myself is that for person, I need to be able to be safe from incident specific things, that's true. But I also need people who are good and kind and people who let me be myself instead of telling me how I have to do it and people who are responsive because at a DNA level, I do not have the capacity to just throw a piece of myself out there and it not be attended to. Right. Someone else could maybe hold on to that.
• 37:31
  Like, I
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah. I think I think it's important. You brought up some really good things. I apologize.
• 37:37
  I'm kinda I'm I'm processing what you talked about because it's very powerful, and it's taught me something that I think I have never actually contemplated. But there is whatever I'm somewhat of a nerd. And though I I tend to get along with people find in the outside world, I as far as getting close, you know, you talk about how you you've learned when to share and when not to share, and I think that that closeness, there does there has to be some sort of chemistry or it and I say chemistry because I mean, you know, that whole it's not just about somebody who's safe, it's somebody who's good and kind, but there has to be needs met in between, not just one way, but both ways. Right? Yes.
• 38:37
  And that doesn't happen just because certain characteristics match. I don't know. Maybe I'm not making sense. But it you you brought up an important piece that I never actually processed before, and I'm gonna have to do some thinking about it. It's good stuff.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: That was a lot. Are you okay after talking about all that?
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes. But it made me feel really good that I wasn't the only one that had trouble with that. That lecture, I I really I did. When it came to relational trauma, I I was flabbergasted because there's so much there. I mean, as a parent, as a person, there's so much there's so much there, and and it affects relationships.
• 39:29
  And, you know, humans are relational beings. I mean, I look at my practice and, you know, nobody comes in and and talks about any issue, even if it's a cold, without discussing somebody that they're related to that has had that. Right? You know? I mean, there's it's always in context in a context of relationship.
• 39:48
  So it makes sense that if relational trauma is at the base of of all, you know, not all, but most severe CPTSD situations, it makes sense why that would impact people so severely. You know? It's definitely made me realize you know, I I even put on on my notes that withdrawal, not not being hostile, but withdrawal was one of the worst ways. The things that affected a person's predict predictions predictions of becoming, borderline having borderline personality disorder, suicidality, and other, dysregulation issues. It's it's about the maternal withdrawal.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: But exactly. And it brings us back to the challenge of part of our healing is learning to do those things well. And so we can practice being present with our children. We can practice being responsive to our friends. We can practice asking for help when we need it from those that we already know are responsive, which is different than setting ourselves up by asking people who aren't actually going to respond.
• 41:13
  Like stop giving away pieces of ourselves to people who don't offer something back. In fact, that's part of what got my attention because right before the conference where they talked about all of this, my kids had to have their meeting on Zoom about going to middle school because they are not at school because of the virus. Right? And so the counselor talked to them on Zoom about middle school, and she totally covered a whole section about friendships and about how people who are actually your friend will respond to you the same amount that you're responding to them. And that it's it may come in different ways because everyone has different love languages and different learning styles and things like that.
• 42:05
  So we share different parts of us and it comes in different ways, but we're both giving to each other when we're in a friendship. But when you're giving and giving and someone doesn't respond or you're giving away pieces of yourself but no one tends to those pieces, then it's not actually a friendship. It's something else.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: It's it will and there's misattunement.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Yes. I mean Right.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: At least I mean, at least from your point, they may be oblivious. But from from your point, if you're giving yourself and putting a lot of energy into something because like you said, something's something that may be simple for one person may not be for another. Like, if I was to have to I mean, like, I'm a pretty, like, private person. So if I was to suddenly have to tell somebody well, confrontation is, like, one of those things I don't like. You know?
• 42:59
  And if I have to do that, that to confront somebody takes a lot of energy for me. And if they just kinda throw it back in my face, like, oh, you know, and it's no big deal to them and they don't respond, that's misattunement. So I wouldn't want to have to to do that and just constantly be I don't know. It it would it would it it would be like throwing throwing out, you know, parts of myself just to be stomped on. Right?
• 43:30
  You know?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And that's how it causes more relational trauma, whether survivors getting in domestic violence relationships one after another or whether it is getting abused again in different ways, this is how it happens. Or sometimes it's just the relational trauma where everyone says you're a good and safe person and I need good and safe people in my life and I want to be a good and safe person and so I'm going to do every way, in therapy they call them bids or turning towards, right? I'm gonna try in every way I can to connect with you and I'm going to give and give and give because I know you're a good and safe person and I know that I want to be a good and safe person and so because of these connections, we can be friends. But if that person is not actually responsive to what you're giving, then it's not healthy for you even if they are a good and safe person.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Right. Because it just re it re traumatizes you.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Yes. Exactly. And that's why it feels so so awful and violating because then you're again put in that double bind where you can't confront it, but you also can't get out of it.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And it's still invalidating because the person usually, at least in my experience, the person is usually you know, if we're talking about this kind of rupture, they're they're they tend to be just oblivious. You know, they're in their own world. They're not tuned in to what's going on, and so I'm just left to deal with it on my own. Right? Right.
• 45:12
  And so that adds to it. It just it just snowballs. Right?
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: And they're they're just being their own person, which is fine. But my experience my experience of it is that I worked so hard to give these big pieces and you've done nothing with them.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Absolutely.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: That what I now understand counts as relational trauma as much as if they had abused me in a physical or sexual way or more so. See, I I did it again. I said it wrong again. It's more damaging than if they had just abused me again. If I approach someone who is a good and safe person and they're wonderful people, that's fine.
• 45:58
  But if I approach them with a piece of myself and they don't honor that piece or respond to that piece or receive that piece, then it's more damaging than if they had just punched me in the face on the spot.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: You know? But it's true.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: It is. Well and so as a survivor, going back and looking back on all these times that I was so distressed in different relationships when I was trying so hard to do it alright, not that I'm a perfect person, but I mean I was trying so hard and why it was never enough and that that really did hurt as much as it did and it really did traumatize me as much as it did. And so repeating that now, it's why everything has changed for us in the last nine months. Everything has changed because I cannot do that to myself anymore. And so I have made progress in surrounding myself with good and safe people, but not all of them are responsive people.
• 47:02
  And so just like I know that I'm a deaf girl with cochlear implants, I also know now that I'm a relational trauma survivor who does not have the DNA capacity to be able to hold onto an attachment by myself. And so if there's someone who is not responsive to me, they are not my friend. Not because they're a bad person, but because my limited capacity, because of what I've been through, requires a responsive person who lets me be myself and responds to that, not their version of me in their head or just not responding at
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: all. Right. And it's so powerful. I think, you know, I'm still stuck on it. Forgive me.
• 47:53
  But I'm still stuck on the fact that you were able I mean, you you did a lot of stuff. I mean, there's a lot that you have accomplished in just being able to say what you said. There's a lot of layers to that because you had to assess what your needs were and be okay with that.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Right? It's huge. That's huge. It's so huge.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: And you had to be able to say that you're not bad for needing that or requiring that before you're going to give yourself away. Right? I mean, there's a lot of empowering and strong work that had to happen for you to get to the point where you could say what you're saying. And so I'm just I guess I'm marveling.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: There's also the layer of being healthy instead of there being drama of that's not a bad person. I mean in some cases when we're talking about actual harm or intentional relational trauma, that is a toxic person and that's a different conversation. But I'm talking about empowering myself not to be traumatized again by giving pieces of myself away that are not responded to. I cannot develop a relationship by myself even if they're a good person. Right.
• 49:09
  And I cannot develop a relationship with someone who won't let me be me even if they're a good person.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Very interesting. What would you say just just because we're on this topic. What would you say to someone because I know there's there's got to be people out there that are in your situation, and they are currently in a situation where they are in a relationship with someone who maybe is having a and I'm not saying these people are bad people because if you think about it, I'm thinking about somebody who's having a version of attackment, but they're doing it in real life and not in a therapeutic setting. Do you see what I'm saying? Right.
• 49:52
  I mean, how how does that play out? Because you have you know, just listening to you on the podcast and in our conversations, I you know, you've talked about how safe the husband is, and, you know, you have like you said, you've surrounded yourself with safe people, but not everybody, I mean, in their healing journey has done that.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Using the husband as an example because he's on here all the time and doesn't mind it. First of all, he's just a a blip on the radar, like a a miracle that I don't know how that happened exactly because he's amazing. He just is authentically real amazing. And the way he is on the podcast is how he is all the time. He thinks he's funny.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: He's very insightful. He's very gentle. He has never raised his voice at me even once. He has never dismissed any idea that I had or been cruel in any of those neglectful ways. He's very expressive in ways that some men are not.
• 50:54
  I I he's very good at attunement, but he's also still human. And the things that are hardest for me with that relationship without him being bad at all like, is object relations. Right? Being able to hold the good and the bad at the same time.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes.
• 51:14
  Exactly. So That's exactly what I'm getting at.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: What is hard for me with him is one that he's got some early stage dementia and so there we go through things of him not remembering conversations we've had or things that I've told him. And so between that and dissociation, it gets pretty funny sometimes. How that will change as he gets sicker, as he gets older, I don't know. We'll see what happens. But the other thing that he's also very open about and tells people about is his own depression and that for me is harder than anything else for two One, it is a trigger because I had a mother who besides different kinds of abuse and issues and relational trauma with her, she was also very depressed which I can imagine being married to my father or going through the things that our family went through.
• 52:11
  That makes sense, she would be depressed. And so besides other kinds of abuse, one of my experiences with my mother my entire life was that she was very shut down, very not responsive which is part of why that's so important to me, right? Right. And very lock herself in the room kind of literally not responding, not present, did not meet my needs, did not reflect my needs, did not notice my needs, what her capacity to do so was just nothing. So it's very triggering for me with the husband when he is having a bad depression day.
• 52:51
  The other piece of that is that what makes our relationship so good is that he's so responsive. And so what is hard is when that is taken away, then it becomes that rupture in the relationship. But because I have the cognitive understanding and because I'm an adult and because I know how to take care of myself instead of falling apart because he's falling apart, I do what I want. I enjoy my life in the ways that I can. I go running even if he's not going to get out of bed.
• 53:27
  I eat healthy foods even if he's going to eat things that are not good for him. I stay calm even if he is numb. Like, I work on feeling what I need to feel and seeing what I want to see or need to see or knowing what I know. All of those things. I work on them the same way I need to do because it's important for me.
• 53:53
  And so what we have to be careful about with attachment is that there's not this codependency aspect of our lives where we are so dependent on the other person functioning that we are struggling because they are not. When we are in a context like if we are married to someone who's not an abuser but is also not good at attunement, for example, then we have the options of, like, not being married to that person. There's always one option. Although I don't mean that it's the automatic option. I just mean it's always there.
• 54:28
  Or recognizing and changing our expectations that that need is not going to be met there. And so it's like learning what we have about our children. We were told all of this thus far and now the rules have changed because we learned what we did at this conference. The same thing would happen in a marriage or a friendship of you always have the option to leave if it's really, really not good for you. But also if you if they are safe and in other ways it is okay or you want to stay in the relationship or whatever, then you focus on meeting those needs in other ways and meeting those needs for yourself in other relationships.
• 55:13
  What you cannot do is escape to a different relationship or friendship only to replace that first one without working on it. Yes. Otherwise it's just avoidance and it will fall apart four or five or six years down the road.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. No. That think it's really cool because that fits into what we learned at the conference. The the whole the different roles.
• 55:39
  You know? If if you're in a relationship and the person you're kind of the the caregiver, the rescuer, and you're constantly putting yourself out there to try to get to meet the other person's needs and, and trying to allow them you know, you you it's always putting them first. You know? I you you end up falling into that drama triangle and instead being more of a coach. And like you said, you set boundaries.
• 56:10
  You say, you know, if your husband is having a hard day and he doesn't get out of bed, that's okay. You but you're not going to just do it because he's doing it. You're gonna do what you need to do for yourself. And drawing those boundaries, I think that's the answer really to my question is if somebody is in a relationship that isn't it's not that they're they're bad or they're unsafe, but they just don't have the capacity for whatever reason to always be responsive or to meet the needs that that person has. How can the person continue to meet their own needs, but but maintain that relationship and work through that relationship.
• 56:53
  And so I think thank you very much. You kinda helped you know, I've wondered with several of my patients, they're in relationships that aren't necessarily abusive, but on a relation relational I guess that's what came up is that if we're talking about relational trauma, that happens, that can be reenacted in everyday life with anybody. Right? And trying to figure out how how do you maintain your boundaries and take care of meet your needs. But like you said, you don't wanna become avoidant either.
• 57:27
  Right?
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Right. So Well and and the foot prints episode that we just put out was probably one of my my, quote, quote, my personal favorites that I need to listen to over and over again myself because I learned so much in the process of it that it's also okay to grieve when someone you really really believed in and really really wanted and needed to be attentive to you is just not that responsive person. There's such grief there and there's such an intensity in letting go and adjusting what life is going to be like without that person in that role because they were actually already not in that role and seeing through those illusions is very, very painful. But if you can get through to the other side of it, then there's such freedom in being yourself and empowering yourself to meet those needs in other ways instead of just waiting on it here.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Because that's you know, you you can love someone, and you could have good things come from that relationship. So this you know, again, there's no drama. Right?
• 58:48
  But if they just simply cannot meet the needs that you're needing in that way, they have other ways that they meet other needs. Being able to to grieve that, that's that's an interesting concept, honestly.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: I
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: had not thought about that. You have to allow yourself to creep it.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. And when they are not a bad person, even if they were a bad person, it's not your job to change them. So I don't have to look at this relationship and say, you need to be what you were in my head. Instead, I need to look at my own head and say, this person is not actually who I thought they were in their head and there's a discrepancy there and I need to grieve that letting go of the difference.
• 59:38
  That they don't actually think of me the way that I thought they did or they don't actually meet the needs that I thought they would or however you need to phrase that. Right. And do the work of grieving every ounce of that. But then you see them more clearly, you see them more accurately, and you also have still acknowledged your own needs, you instead of dismissing them. It gets you out of the double bind because
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Ah, yes.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: You're seeing accurately what's happening. You're acknowledging your own experience. You're letting them be the person they are instead of trying to change them. But you can empower yourself then to do something about it for yourself for your own needs, not about trying to change them.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And so then you're not in that triangle. You're not playing a role. You're just being a healthy individual.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: You step out which then brings up the opportunity for moments when they do actually respond to you or attend to you or come to meet you even though what you've learned is they're not going to stay in that space. But when they do show up, you can enjoy it because they're not a bad person. But then you also can let them go again because you know they've already chosen to not choose you in that way.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Right. And and again, coming back to nobody's the bad person. There's no I failed, they failed, there's no failure. Right? Right.
• 1:01:07
  Oh, that's so powerful. Oh my goodness. You guys are amazing.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: It's really empowering empowering because you're letting you're giving them the freedom to be all of who they are just like you're asking for all of who you are to be recognized.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Right. Absolutely. And I would suspect, you know, in a you know, in a DID situation, you're all of yourselves, even though you experience them separately, all of them are important, and all of them need to be accepted. And so when you are forming a relationship with someone, you need to have respect for all of those parts. I mean, I guess that's the same thing for somebody who is a singleton too, that we all need to be we have different roles that we play.
• 1:01:53
  And if and if there is somebody in our life that will not accept all of that, then we have to be able to resolve that. Now if that person is is, like you said, abusive or or just not safe, then, we need to make a decision about that. Do you know, there's there's a decision that needs to be made about that. But if but if we have determined that they are safe and good and kind and we do want them in our lives, but they can't accept who we are, that's not that's not something that we have to settle for.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Right? We never have to settle.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. That's so empowering. Oh my goodness. You guys are amazing.
• 1:02:32
  I know I didn't say that when I first got on the phone with you, but I just want you to know how amazing you are. You guys have done such good work. And, and I'm not just talking about the podcast or the the people that you work with as clients, but just as a person, as a whole, just we're just so blessed that that we have you as a friend. So thank you so much.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You're so kind, and I'm excited that you did 15 podcasts with me all at once.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Hey. You know what? I am just blessed that I get to give back because your podcasts have been so educational for me. I have in fact, it was so funny. I was sitting in the conference, and I'm like, I don't know how many times I did this.
• 1:03:20
  I went, I wish I was in conference so I could practice my sign language to her and say thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: That's so funny.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, because you had talked some things. It has been so, so educational, so helpful. As a clinician, especially, being able to to be humanistic and look at the there's lots of ways. I mean, you have such a gift of being able to look at things from multiple different perspectives and honoring each perspective for what it is and and that, you know, there's there's just so much in this world that can be good and kind, and it doesn't have to be judged harshly. I mean, it's just it's really been an eye opener and so so thankful for you.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's so nice of you. That's so kind. I appreciate it, and I appreciate your spending time with us on the podcast. That was so brave of you to take your medical world and bring it into my world and see what we could learn together.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I I I'm honored. I'm honored. I don't don't know. I feel I feel like I may have outed my profession a little bit, but it's just, I think it's just a different culture. And, I think that culture can change, and I think it would be good if we we kept the good and added some.
• 1:04:43
  You know? Because there's a lot of beautiful things that happen in medicine, but, it it there's you know, any everything that's good can be improved. Right?
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you so much for talking to us.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Hey. Thank you so much for taking time to talk to me too, and, we'll keep in touch. Thank you.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.