Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #293 A For Effort

Transcript

#293 A For Effort · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, those conversations have zero evaluation from me. What they
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: show is that I'm willing to support my child in
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  Speaker 2: achieving what she values, and I want to talk to
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: her about where she's going and what she's trying to do.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the scars of our show, My mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Kylie, how you doing.
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  Speaker 3: It's been a tough weekend.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been hard. We are so grateful to everyone
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  Speaker 2: who listened to our podcast yesterday and shared kind things
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: about us. Fare willing our dog Benson. Kind of felt
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit self indulgent to talk about it in
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: some ways, but at the same time, it's the sort
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  Speaker 2: of thing that every family's going to go through if
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: you have a pet. Right.
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  Speaker 3: As I have shared our news with other friends, I
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  Speaker 3: have been amazed at how many people have gone through
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  Speaker 3: the process and how difficult it was for each of
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: them going through it as well. It's been so much
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: harder than I would have expected.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we should introduce ourselves for those of you who
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  Speaker 2: are new. I'm justin here with Kylie, my wife, mum,
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  Speaker 2: to our six kids. I'm the founder of Happy Families
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  Speaker 2: dot com. A you we go to get back into
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  Speaker 2: the swing of things today, though, are you ready for it?
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  Speaker 2: Of course? Okay, all right, So we got to put
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  Speaker 2: our behind in the past, our behind in the past,
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  Speaker 2: put our past behind us. That's an old line from
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  Speaker 2: the Lion King. I couldn't help myself and dive into
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: what we usually do on a Tuesday, which is answer
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  Speaker 2: a question, a challenge, a difficulty that one of our
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  Speaker 2: podcast listeners is struggling with. And this is a cracker,
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  Speaker 2: especially for this time in term two when reports are
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  Speaker 2: run their way out from Lee Kylie. What did Lee
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  Speaker 2: ask us via podcasts at Happy families dot com.
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  Speaker 3: You just wondering about what Justin and Kylie do with
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  Speaker 3: regards to celebrating their children's reports or giving feedback to
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  Speaker 3: their children. My daughter is five, and we have and
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  Speaker 3: still maintain as her parents that it is her attitude
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  Speaker 3: and effort that we are concerned about. What kind of
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  Speaker 3: themes would you discuss or encourage about reports sharing with
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  Speaker 3: your child? Do you point out areas that still need work?
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  Speaker 3: According to the teacher, I want to make the celebration
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  Speaker 3: meaningful and intentional, and I just want some pointers either way.
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  Speaker 2: It's report time. Half yearly reports are about to come out,
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  Speaker 2: and this is one of those questions that every parent
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  Speaker 2: wonders about. What do I say when the report arrives,
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  Speaker 2: especially well, whether it's good news or bad news? What
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  Speaker 2: do I What do I say? It's tricky?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think this is going to be an interesting
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  Speaker 3: conversation because you and I have a pretty different take
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  Speaker 3: on this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we kind of do, don't we. This is something
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  Speaker 2: that's been a bug bear bug. I was gonna say
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  Speaker 2: we've clashed, but I think that's too strong. But we
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  Speaker 2: definitely have a different approach. Why don't you outline your
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  Speaker 2: approach and see if that's helpfully and every other parent
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  Speaker 2: who's about to open up an envelope that's got their
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  Speaker 2: child's midyear report in it, and then I'll share a
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  Speaker 2: few of my ideas well.
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  Speaker 3: My parents were very much like Lee's parents growing up.
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  Speaker 3: They would get my report card at the end of
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  Speaker 3: the year and we'd go through it together and usually
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  Speaker 3: that would end up with us heading down Tory Jacks
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  Speaker 3: because that was my favorite hangout, go and get a
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  Speaker 3: whopper as an eleven or twelve year old, and we'd
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  Speaker 3: celebrate together. And generally speaking, my parents didn't eat hungry jacks,
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  Speaker 3: so they would watch me eat, but we would celebrate
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  Speaker 3: the fact that I had had a successful year.
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  Speaker 2: So what are you celebrating.
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  Speaker 3: I'm celebrating effort, because likely my parents didn't worry so
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  Speaker 3: much about my grades. They celebrated the fact that I
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  Speaker 3: actually got through another year and that I had put
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  Speaker 3: effort into what I'd done.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So increasingly a lot of schools are adding
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  Speaker 2: effort to the report card and teaches a grading effort
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  Speaker 2: as well. And I'm I just I cannot put out
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  Speaker 2: of my mind that time that our daughter Annie, I
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  Speaker 2: think she was probably in about grade three or grade four. Now,
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  Speaker 2: Annie is a conscientious kid. She's diligent, and of all
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  Speaker 2: of our six daughters, she is, without question the one
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  Speaker 2: who puts in the effort.
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  Speaker 3: Conscientious.
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  Speaker 2: She is so consistent, yes, and wants to do the
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  Speaker 2: right thing and wants to wants to please her teacher.
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  Speaker 2: She's so well, conscientious is the word. And I remember
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  Speaker 2: she opened up her report to go through it with you,
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  Speaker 2: and she got a few b's and c's, a couple
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  Speaker 2: of a's. It was kind of just a bit of
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  Speaker 2: a mixed bag. But she was really really distraught because
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  Speaker 2: we had until that point always said we don't really
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  Speaker 2: care what grades you get, we just want to encourage
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  Speaker 2: you to always put a really good effort in and
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  Speaker 2: in the grading box for effort, and he had received
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  Speaker 2: a couple of c's that devastated her. I remember her saying,
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  Speaker 2: I failed trying. I failed trying, that I didn't even
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  Speaker 2: get an A for trying, and I tried so hard,
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  Speaker 2: but my teacher just couldn't see it. And that one
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  Speaker 2: incident has absolutely changed the way that I see reports now.
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  Speaker 2: I was aware of a whole lot of evidence and
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  Speaker 2: research around grades, but that one particular experience forced me
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  Speaker 2: to go back and look at the literature, I guess,
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  Speaker 2: almost with new eyes, and read what the research actually said,
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  Speaker 2: rather than just going along with what we'd always done.
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  Speaker 2: So your approach is every time kids come home with
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  Speaker 2: a report card, you actually sit down and go through
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  Speaker 2: it with them.
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  Speaker 3: Well, they're pretty excited for me to have a look
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  Speaker 3: at it and see what they've done and tell me,
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  Speaker 3: you know, how well they went in particular areas. Every
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  Speaker 3: child has their favorites, and so it's a given they're
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  Speaker 3: going to end up with good marks there, but we
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  Speaker 3: get to talk about the things that they're struggling with
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  Speaker 3: and the acknowledgment from their teachers the areas that they
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  Speaker 3: could work on, and we have a conversation around that
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  Speaker 3: whether or not that's actually accurate in their minds, you know,
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  Speaker 3: when it comes to their effort, or when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to their participation in class or I'm not going to
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  Speaker 3: go into any academic stuff with them because I'm not
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  Speaker 3: going to be much help there, but talking to them about,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the things that I guess are part of
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  Speaker 3: their character.
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  Speaker 2: I think they're important. I would imagine that ninety five
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  Speaker 2: percent of our listeners would be right there with you. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's what you're supposed to do. You sit down, you
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  Speaker 2: go through it. You talk about their strengths, their weakness,
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  Speaker 2: is what they're enjoying, have a look at how the
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  Speaker 2: teacher is perceiving their work in the classroom.
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  Speaker 3: It's just that we even talk about the relationship they
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  Speaker 3: have with their teacher, because that has a huge impact
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  Speaker 3: on their report card.
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  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of teachers would say that it can't possibly,
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  Speaker 2: but we've got some reasonably interesting research from around the
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  Speaker 2: world that suggests that it probably has more of an
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  Speaker 2: impact than most people want to admit. But you and I,
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  Speaker 2: we really do differ in the way report card time
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  Speaker 2: season happens. How would you describe my response to report
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  Speaker 2: cards in a word? Apathetic? We're going to talk about
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  Speaker 2: why I completely disregard and ignore every report card my
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: children ever get.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Right after the break, it's their Happy Families.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Podcast For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership,
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: because a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: families dot com dot au.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now, and today we
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: are trying to answer Lee's question on how to celebrate
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  Speaker 3: and offer feedback to our children around report cards. But
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  Speaker 3: you and I differ on this, so I'm really interested.
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  Speaker 3: I've shared my viewpoint. How do you feel about this
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  Speaker 3: report card sharing?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the first thing that I'm going to highlight is
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  Speaker 2: that in this particular email, we've got Lee who has
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  Speaker 2: a five year old, and I just think that with
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  Speaker 2: no disrespect to Lee and anyone else who has a
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  Speaker 2: five year old, who does this, because this is not
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  Speaker 2: about parents shaming. This is about trying to rethink the
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  Speaker 2: way we consider our interaction with our kids around evaluation
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  Speaker 2: and grading. My feeling is that at the age of five,
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  Speaker 2: the last thing we need to worry about is what's
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  Speaker 2: on the report card. I think that is completely irrelevant
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  Speaker 2: to their character, to their development. In fact, I would
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  Speaker 2: not only say that it's irrelevant, I would say that
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  Speaker 2: it's counterproductive. Five year old's developmentally, are just learning how
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  Speaker 2: to think. They're still, in some cases trying to develop
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  Speaker 2: that thing called theory of mind. They don't really know
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  Speaker 2: how to regulate their emotions particularly well, or their behaviors,
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  Speaker 2: especially if they're the younger kids in their class and
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  Speaker 2: five years old. Right we're talking about kinder or prep.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about grade one at the highest.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm actually really surprised at that at five we're
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  Speaker 3: giving report.
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  Speaker 2: Cards well, and I don't think we should. I think
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  Speaker 2: it's disgraceful. I think I ustdly and fundamentally reject the
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  Speaker 2: idea that children under the age of eight or ten
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  Speaker 2: need report cards, the idea that we need to be
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  Speaker 2: evaluating them and sending home something attached to a grade
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  Speaker 2: or a letter or something like that they're supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be learning how to share. They're learning how to use
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  Speaker 2: a knife and fork for crying out loud, they're learning
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  Speaker 2: how to sleep all night alone in their own bedrooms,
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  Speaker 2: and we're giving them these evaluations that look so official
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  Speaker 2: and that tell them how they're doing in class compared
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  Speaker 2: to everyone else. I completely reject the idea that our
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  Speaker 2: little kids need report cards. In fact, i'd argue even
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  Speaker 2: that big kids don't necessarily need report cards, but I'll
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  Speaker 2: come to that in a sec. The second thing, just
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  Speaker 2: in the email that I want to emphasize is this
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  Speaker 2: idea that do we make a big deal about her
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  Speaker 2: attitude and effort. That's what we're concerned about, attitude and effort.
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  Speaker 2: And to me, implicit in that statement, and maybe I'm
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  Speaker 2: reading too much into it, but I hear it from
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  Speaker 2: parents all the time. So this isn't about Lee's email.
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  Speaker 2: This is more about a general conversation I have with parents.
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  Speaker 2: They say, we just want the kids to maintain a
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  Speaker 2: good attitude. We just want them to maintain their effort,
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  Speaker 2: which seems to imply to me that parents implicitly know
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  Speaker 2: that school is going to undermine motivation for learning, that
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  Speaker 2: going to school is going to get in the way
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  Speaker 2: of a good education or motivation for education. There's this
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: suggestion that motivation, attitude, effort might actually decline. Oh, hang on,
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  Speaker 2: We've got decades of research that shows that that's exactly
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  Speaker 2: what happens. No wonder parents are worried about it, because
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  Speaker 2: that's what unfortunately our current school system, in spite of
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  Speaker 2: the very best teachers who love the kids and work
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  Speaker 2: so hard, we have a system that, fundamentally at every level,
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  Speaker 2: for most kids, undermines their interest in natural curiosity and learning.
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  Speaker 3: Well, considering this is the podcast for the time poor
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  Speaker 3: parent who just wants answers, now, how do we help Lee?
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  Speaker 3: What can she do to make this time with her
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  Speaker 3: child more meaningful?
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  Speaker 2: I'm guessing that my first piece of advice is not
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  Speaker 2: going to be listened to by many parents. My first
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  Speaker 2: piece of advice is just throw the report in the bin,
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  Speaker 2: don't look at it. Whether they're in primary school or
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  Speaker 2: high school, don't even worry. You're shaking your head, Well,
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  Speaker 2: no i'm not.
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  Speaker 3: But when we first got married, your mum gave me
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  Speaker 3: a box of all your keepsakes. Yeah, and she hadn't
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  Speaker 3: done a great job of collating everything, but she had
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  Speaker 3: envelopes for each year, and just in the envelopes was
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  Speaker 3: your report cards, your school photos, anything that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: any achievements you had made through the year. And I
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: really enjoyed going through that. And what I found was
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: as I went through that each year, there was a
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  Speaker 3: theme to your report cards and the different behaviors that
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  Speaker 3: you displayed from the time you were tiny.
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  Speaker 2: What the well, I don't remember now it was so.
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  Speaker 3: Long ago because we've been married for over two decades.
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  Speaker 2: I think it said something like Justin does not live
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  Speaker 2: up to his potential, something like that.
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  Speaker 3: And what was amazing was just watching that these were handwritten,
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  Speaker 3: so people didn't have access to previous years or anything
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  Speaker 3: like your teachers saw in you a pattern, and I
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  Speaker 3: thought that was a really I mean, that's that's intriguing
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  Speaker 3: to me.
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  Speaker 2: I agree that it's really interesting to look back historically
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  Speaker 2: and see that trend. And yet I would also make
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: the argument when you look at somebody who is in
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: their thirties or forties, if you look at me in
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: my mid forties, gosh, my mid to late forties, what's
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: happening to me? How did that happen so fast? I
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: don't think that my grade three report card or my
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  Speaker 2: grade eight report card actually says anything about the human
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  Speaker 2: that I've become and about the life that I've lived.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think that even getting a snapshot in time
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  Speaker 2: is useful for anything at all. It doesn't predict the future.
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  Speaker 2: And it's a simple subjective evaluation of what a teacher
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  Speaker 2: thinks based on what happened over the last twelve to
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: twenty four weeks at school. Full stop, end of story.
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  Speaker 2: So my number one piece of advice is give it
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  Speaker 2: a cursory glance, if you must, file it away for history,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: if you choose, because it could be fun, But don't
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: think about it, don't worry about it, don't talk about
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  Speaker 2: it now. Is that realistic? I don't think so. I
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: don't think many parents are going to do that. So
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I've got some other advice to parents who can't help themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Oh good, because you're looking at me like, are you serious?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Scut it out?
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  Speaker 3: Our kids come home and they want to be acknowledged.
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  Speaker 2: They do, they do, And so here's what I do.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: In terms of acknowledging kids, I say to them, how'd
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  Speaker 2: you feel when you read that? How do you feel
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: you did? Is it an accurate representation? What would you
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: like the next one to look like. Those conversations have
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: zero evaluation from me. What they show is that I'm
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: willing to support my child in achieving what she values,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: and I want to talk to her about where she's
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: going and what she's trying to do. I'm not interested
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: in what the teacher thinks. I'm interested in what my
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: daughter thinks. Do you feel like that fair? Yes?
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: No?
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  Speaker 2: Huh? Interesting? Why is that? Let's talk about what you
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: want next time, how you're going to get there, How
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: can I support you? To me, that's far more valuable
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: as a conversation to a child than here's what your
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: geography teacher says, here's what your maths teacher says, here's
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: what your English teacher says. With the greatest respect to teachers,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not that interested in what you think. I'm interested
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: in a couple of things. Number one, does my child
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: love learning? And number two, does my child love their friends?
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  Speaker 2: Because if my child says I love learning and I
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: want to do well at it, and I love being
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: at school with my friends, then they're going to be fine.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: They're going to do well, and that's my interest. I
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: came across a quote in Joe Frost's book about raising kids.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not even going to give the title of the book.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And for those of you who aren't sure, Joe Frost
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: she's the Supernanny and she says, and I quote, the
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: best rewards are attention, praise, and love, which sounds great
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: so far, doesn't it, And then she says this, the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: best rewards are attention, praise, and love and should be
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: held back when the child behaves badly. Oh stop it,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: just stop it. If the kids haven't done well on
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: their report, say how did that make you feel? What
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: would you like the report to look like? How can
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I support you to get their next time?
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  Speaker 3: It just made me really sad.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: And if the child has done well on their report,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: you say, how did that make you feel? What do
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: you want the next one to look like? How can
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I support you to get there? Why'd that make you
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: feel sad?
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Oh?
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  Speaker 2: I just because you're married to me and not Joe Frost.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: This idea that we have.
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  Speaker 3: To withhold our love from our children if they don't
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: perform to a certain level, or if they don't do
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: what we want them to do, that just breaks my heart.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that that's what Lee is getting out,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: and I don't think any parent would, but yet this
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: is what some of the advices that's out there around
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: grades and around this kind of stuff. It's just so unhealthy. Hey,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going to link to an article from a guy
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: called Alfie Cone. Alfie Cone wrote a book called Punish
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: by Rewards. In fact, he's written about ten books, and
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I just think he's absolutely brilliant and fascinating. And this
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: article is called the Case against Grades, and this is
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: what he says. Grades diminish students interest in what they're learning.
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  Speaker 2: A grading orientation and a learning orientation have been shown
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: to be inversely related, and as far as I can tell,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: every study that's ever investigated the impact on an intrinsic
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: motivation of receiving grades has found a negative effect. He
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: says grades create a preference for the easiest possible task,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: and then he adds grades tend to reduce the quality
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: of students thinking. There's a whole lot more in the article.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: It's brilliant. I'm a big believer in what he says,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: but it's a long article and we don't have time
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: to read it. That's my advice. That's the way I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: see report cards. I know that it's controversial, I know
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: it's provocative. I know that you don't totally agree with me,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: but can we at least agree that we're probably not
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: going to get that serious about this term's report.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: We won't be that serious about this term's report. So
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: doctor Justin Coulson, tell me the take homes. You're going
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: to sum up what you've shared today to answer Lee's question,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: what are the two take homes that you want.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: To So I would say this, the take home message is,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: don't put educational pressure on your kids. Number one, and
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: going over reports and focusing on evaluations like that are
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: only going to add pressure. And number two, just ask
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: them if they love their friends, if they love being
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: at school, if they love learning, and then support them
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: to love it more. Next term.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking forward to having those conversations with our kids.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Sounds like I'm the one that's going over the reports
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: this term. This will just take them out for the
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: milkshake afterwards. We're both celebrating. Oh, we're just celebrating a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: live We don't need a report to go out and
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: have a milkshake and celebrate, although I'd rather if we
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: just bought the ice cream brought at home and made
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: it at home. We'll save ourselves a.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Bundy no No. I found the best banana fix shake
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: the other day. I am definitely going back there.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: are provoked by our podcasts, good We're delighted about that.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: We had a lot of Facebook messages yes today about
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: this question. My advice doesn't seem to be consistent with
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: any of those messages, but you can jump onto Facebook
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: and join the conversation. Just have a look at yesterday's
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: posts on the topic, and if you'd like more info
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: about Happy Families, visit our website happyfamilies dot com dot au.