Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Michelin-Star Chef Takeshi Nishikawa on Japanese Ice Cream & Culinary Artistry #141

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Michelin-Star Chef Takeshi Nishikawa on Japanese Ice Cream & Culinary Artistry #141 · Chef's PSA Podcast

0:00
Hello chefs. This is Chef's PSA podcast.
0:02
I'm your host, Andrea Natera. My guest is Chef Takashimi
0:04
Shikawa. He was the former culinary
0:06
director for Rosa's restaurant Group, and he recently left that
0:10
to start snow craying his Japanese inspired ice cream
0:13
shop. He has Michelin star experience
0:15
and he's trying to bring that Michelin experience to the world
0:18
of ice cream. I think you'll really enjoy this
0:20
episode. Stay tuned.
0:33
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1:03
Cook hard, stay sharp. Chef, Good.
1:05
See. I like what you're wearing, by
1:06
the way. Thank you.
1:08
I don't think I've had a guest in the studio that looks this
1:12
sharp. Thank you for that.
1:14
You got. What do you got here?
1:15
What is this, the pocket square? Yeah, but it's the pocket square
1:18
is beautiful. Yeah.
1:20
It's one of the vintage one. It's a vintage one.
1:22
It is. Yeah.
1:22
It looks good. So big time into fashion.
1:24
Big time, big time. Yeah.
1:27
I wanted to talk to you really about.
1:29
You're doing something pretty interesting right now.
1:30
So for people that don't know, you were the culinary director
1:34
overseeing a couple of Michelin star restaurants, and then now
1:37
you're transitioning into a new business venture.
1:41
So first, I want to start out with what that business venture
1:47
is like. What is it that you're moving
1:49
into and why? Why did you want to start going
1:51
into this new business venture? Yeah.
1:54
So the business venture that I'm starting is called Snow Crane.
1:56
So it is a Japanese ice cream. So I used to manage the Roses
2:04
restaurant group of the calling director and we had a four
2:07
restaurants with four, four to three missions.
2:09
So it depend on, you know, when, when we're talking about.
2:12
Yeah. So yeah.
2:15
So what made you want to start doing ice cream?
2:19
So because the reason I ask is that seems like a a pretty big
2:22
departure, at least from an outsider looking in from doing
2:25
Michelin star fine dining. I think it's actually quite the
2:28
output. I think it's pretty common.
2:30
I think if you see a lot of other people Speaking of like,
2:32
you know, like, you know, for example, like why different?
2:34
Like, you know, who's done, you know, a lot of fine dining,
2:36
moving into pizza places, you know, a lot of people are doing
2:39
into donut places. So in that sense, I think it's
2:42
pretty, you know, like similar to one of those chefs, I just
2:47
wanted to do ice cream because it's, it was one of those where
2:49
I, it's that something I really love, even though I don't do all
2:52
the dairies. But also my wife and I moved
2:56
into our neighborhood and, and when we take a walk around, we
2:59
just see like, you know, what's in the area and there's amazing
3:01
BBQ places, amazing coffee places.
3:03
And, you know, I was like, So what else is missing from this
3:06
neighborhood? And when I thought about it, it
3:08
was like, OK, dessert shop and I didn't want to do cookie.
3:10
And it just like it's pretty boring for me.
3:12
I just want to do something that's fun into something
3:14
exciting and something that I can, you know, express myself
3:17
through. And ice cream was the was the
3:19
one that I've chosen. And what, what makes the style
3:23
of ice cream that you're doing unique and different from I
3:26
mean, I, I, I think it's like Gelato or just regular.
3:28
Is it is it the exact same thing, or is there something
3:30
that makes yours uniquely different from what the what the
3:35
expectation is? Yeah, I think it's quite I mean
3:38
they're of course similarities. I think, you know, basic
3:40
ingredients is can be similar, but doesn't always have to be
3:44
some of the non dairy milks that we use like for example, we saw
3:48
milk on milk, old milk, things like that nature.
3:51
But also I think we highly, highly select very special
3:54
ingredients from Japan, myself also being from there.
3:56
Like for example, we recently during the pop up data block
3:59
sesame, but we use suck you want from your Kaichi, which is like,
4:02
you know, our N to where I'm from and the nuttiness, the
4:05
flavor, the color is like amazing, completely different.
4:08
And so really, really trying to curate like, you know what we
4:10
use as ingredients, you know, just like sushi, anything else
4:13
the same. I mean we hyper focus on
4:14
ingredients and try and use the best we can.
4:17
So when you decided so I mean, I guess maybe a better question
4:20
for me to ask is when did you know it was time to start doing
4:24
this and start to pursue this other venture?
4:26
Yeah. So I really, really enjoyed my
4:30
role as a culinary director. Obviously, otherwise I've done
4:33
it for a very long time and it's very challenging and demanding
4:35
work. But one, I mean, more and more
4:38
when I was going to work and things, I just wanted to do
4:40
something of my own. And I think it's one day.
4:44
It's like, what did they say? There's no perfect day to start
4:48
anything. So that's why I.
4:50
Plant a tree exactly 10 years ago or today.
4:52
That's right. Yeah.
4:53
So, so it's like more and more I, I had a feeling of, you know,
4:56
let me do something my own. And one day I was like, OK, they
5:00
just do it because like, you know, there's, you know, no
5:03
perfect day. So that's when I started.
5:05
So what does the process look like once you once you determine
5:08
that? Did you did you start working on
5:10
it before you left or did you leave immediately and then start
5:12
working on this? I was still working on the
5:15
project while I was employed. So I mean, the basic business
5:19
plan was something that I wrote very long time ago.
5:21
It was something that I was interested in.
5:24
So like I had a, it's on the corner of scrapbook that I had,
5:28
you know, business plan written just like I have other, you
5:31
know, half dozen other business plans written out.
5:33
So it's like I didn't sell from Ground Zero.
5:34
Maybe it was like 10% there. And when I was working with the,
5:37
the previous employer, I was basically working there the full
5:43
time and I'll come home and, you know, usually spend like, you
5:46
know, midnight to 3:00 AM on this business.
5:48
So like that's like, you know, in corporations, see the the
5:51
menus logistics, like the older things that it takes to open the
5:54
new business. So when you're starting to write
5:57
the business plan, what are some of the things that you're
5:59
looking at? So do you have like a critical
6:01
path that you're starting off of?
6:02
So get the LLC, get get the name, trade market.
6:07
What? What did your process look like?
6:09
Yeah, I think my process is like, So what are we, who are we
6:12
and and what is it? So I think I'm a product driven
6:15
person and then product first. So like because again like
6:18
there's a lot of ice cream shops, you know, in our
6:21
neighborhood or I guess not in neighborhood, but I guess in our
6:23
States and in region Washington DC there's a hundred of them if
6:27
you count them. So it's like, let's not open
6:29
something that already exists. And what's going to make our
6:31
business so different? What is going to make our
6:33
products that much better? So like that's where it started.
6:36
And so that's why I think Japanese ice cream was like
6:39
really the first thing. And that's like, what did that
6:40
mean? And start expanding that and
6:43
really create the brand. And after that, like ask the
6:46
question like, you know, is that worse for sooner or not?
6:49
And the answer was yes. Then at that point, I'll start
6:51
going to like, OK, let's just start incorporating it.
6:53
And what is the formats going to be?
6:54
Is it going to be LLC escort C corporate, whatever, whatever
6:57
the format of that is? And then start talking to other
7:00
people and making sure, like business bank account, there's
7:03
all that. And what is the marketing?
7:04
And then at that point, like you said, like you know, I will
7:07
basically create the critical passive road map, whatever you
7:10
even call it and and start executing one thing at a time.
7:14
And yeah, I am. For people that don't know what,
7:16
what is the the biggest difference between the style of
7:18
ice cream that you're doing and then kind of what they're
7:20
already familiar with, like Italian Gelato shops or, you
7:23
know, baskin-robbins or whatever the case may be, right?
7:24
What makes this unique? Yeah, I think it's, I think the
7:30
biggest difference I will say is it's obviously the flavor, but
7:34
also it is the aesthetic. And what does it mean to be a
7:38
Japanese ice cream? I think it is purest in the
7:42
form. We really look into the
7:44
ingredients and then there's not just whatever and presentation.
7:48
I think it is some something that's big thing.
7:50
I think no matter what ice cream companies look at like, I think
7:53
globally, like, you know, you look in Italian jello in Rome or
7:56
you know, like American style, you know, higher fat content ice
7:58
creams in in in New York, like they look pretty similar,
8:02
whether it is like scooped or whatever.
8:04
Like it it, it's basically coming in a similar format.
8:06
So I think I'm really trying to use what I learned, you know,
8:09
through my career and fine dining and and and Michelin
8:11
background and to really translate those into this
8:14
product. So that means there's garnishes
8:17
and there are some things that looks a little different than
8:20
what you would expect. And I think that's why when
8:23
we're even doing pop up and things like that, it's like, you
8:25
know, a lot of comments that we've gotten, it's like, you
8:27
know, it's literally the most beautiful ice cream I've ever
8:30
seen. Can you give me an example?
8:32
Yeah, like for example, I think we just.
8:33
And and also when people are listening or watching, I could I
8:36
put up an image of kind of what you're talking about?
8:38
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, we've done several kinds,
8:41
but I think one of the one that, you know, was one of our more
8:44
popular 1 was so we we recently that like I said earlier is the
8:47
the black sesame ice cream. So it's really dark ice cream
8:53
and over the top. We dusted it with, you know,
8:55
really fine ground the block sesame so it looks like a matte
8:58
black on the top instead of like, you know, like a shiny
9:01
block. Yeah.
9:01
And over the top, we just put it up.
9:03
We put up the these gold Chris Hansen form shaped to wheel and
9:10
that's like industrial offers gold.
9:12
So the contract between the black and gold is really
9:14
stunning. And also the Christmas moon seal
9:17
has like that very, you know, Japanese aesthetic.
9:19
And it's like the amount of time it takes to prep some of those
9:21
items. Like, you know, it's not almost
9:23
like some of the company just can't replicate because it's,
9:25
you know, that's what we do and that's what we're used to.
9:27
You know, if you find any restaurant sometime it takes
9:30
more time to prep the garnish than the protein itself.
9:32
So yeah. So this is like Michelin level
9:35
ice cream. Yeah.
9:36
Totally. Yeah, OK.
9:37
And, and in fact, I think that's what we're going for.
9:39
I mean, to be honest, I think there is a, you know, world in
9:41
which that we can start doing tasting when you want to see a
9:43
brick and mortar shop open. And I think, you know, if we
9:46
become the first ice cream shop in the US to go to Michelin, I
9:49
mean, I wouldn't be surprised. Really.
9:50
OK now. And you, you've clearly piqued
9:52
my interest. Now I'm very interested because
9:55
I I'm not familiar with it and I'm trying to envision it.
9:57
I mean, it sounds amazing from a cost standpoint though.
10:05
What would you retail or what is retail right now for what is it
10:10
a scoop, a container? How is this sold?
10:12
Yeah. I mean, we doing pop up, we do
10:15
scoop a single scoop. Yeah, one or two different
10:18
kinds. And also we sell pints.
10:20
OK. Then what does retail look like
10:22
and then what is your cost on the back end typically?
10:24
Yeah, so one scoop, we tend to charge somewhere between 9 to 13
10:28
dollars $9 on simplest couples Cornish and 13 is more talking
10:32
about like, you know, like Sunday type of format.
10:35
Like recently we've done like, you know, like white Japanese
10:38
strawberry over the the ice creams and and like that was
10:42
more on the higher end cost. And then pints, we normally sold
10:46
415 or pint. Starting to understand this a
10:48
little bit more like because I don't think I could, I don't
10:51
have a frame of reference on it right?
10:53
So I've never been to a Japanese ice cream shop and I'm, I can't
10:56
think of an ice cream shop that might be performing at that
11:00
level that I could really fully grasp what we what you're trying
11:03
to what you're trying to do, But it really sounds like you're
11:05
doing something incredible. What would the brigade and the,
11:09
the kitchen structure look like for something?
11:11
I mean, do you have a, a pastry chef there with you?
11:12
Is it just you? I mean, I'm sure there's people
11:15
up front. Is it going to be counter
11:16
service or is this sit down? Yeah, so we have a different
11:21
formats, but what I'm envisioning today is, is it's
11:24
going to look pretty much like a regular ice cream.
11:26
But I do like the aesthetic to be pretty seamless and minimal.
11:30
Like I don't want a lot of merchandise on the counter.
11:33
I don't want a lot of like, you know, flashy things and all
11:36
these like advertisement and this that kind of thing.
11:38
Want it to be like super sleek, like very natural look, whether
11:42
it's water, concrete, like, you know, the materials, like we
11:44
have talked about it, but I think we want it to be like
11:47
really soothing kind of environment.
11:49
And I think there should be a counter counter seat and you
11:53
know, there are a couple of seats, but I think outside of
11:55
that, it's just it's it's pretty much as you pick up, you can
11:58
pick up and go or you can you can grab a seat and dine, But I
12:01
don't it's not like there's not going to be a sorbers like, you
12:03
know, just going to be like kiss your type of person.
12:06
And also there's like person who is scooping ice cream and of
12:08
course managers, someone like that would be doing a lot of
12:11
production and things like that. What does the creative process
12:15
look like for you when you're coming up with with the ice
12:18
creams in about how many different styles of ice cream
12:22
are you going to have on the menu when I mean, what do you
12:24
think of when you get open? Yeah.
12:26
So we, because it's like, I think as I mentioned, I do want
12:30
to do pretty minimalistic concepts.
12:32
So I'm going to take the flip side of, you know, what
12:33
baskin-robbins and these guys are doing with like, you know,
12:35
30-4 different flavors. I'm going to only do like maybe
12:38
four, maybe six, OK. And people going to think it's
12:41
like, wow, that's all. Not very much options, but I
12:44
think what that allows us to do is like really be hyper
12:46
seasonal. There are certain ingredients
12:48
only last very short time. Like those things we get to
12:51
highlight it and once that goes off, we get to swap it very
12:54
quickly because we don't have a lot of inventories.
12:55
And then operationally also like we don't have that mentioned
12:58
inventory because we only have a very few skews of ice creams
13:01
instead of like so many. So that cuts on the labor, that
13:04
cuts on inventory costs. I think from business
13:06
standpoint, it makes a lot of sense in terms of like I say,
13:09
flavor wise, like I say it is hyper seasonal.
13:11
So if there are certain ingredients that comes in
13:13
season, like that's what we're going to use.
13:15
So we have a, we have a calendar with like, you know, when these
13:18
product that comes in season and we prioritize those first.
13:22
And then if you want to do certain, you know, like matcha
13:24
Hodisha or any, you know, tea based flavors or anything else,
13:28
like, you know, those things are like one that we can plug in the
13:31
holes. Like, you know, we don't have
13:32
certain kind of time frame where like for example, in the winter
13:35
time, I mean we don't have like, you know, fresh fruit don't that
13:38
time it does make sense to do like, you know, more tea based
13:41
flavor or sweet potatoes or things like that.
13:44
From a, from a process standpoint, is the process of
13:47
making Japanese style ice cream any different from, you know,
13:51
what we're familiar with? Most chefs, I should say, are
13:53
most familiar with, you know, the custard base and then
13:57
Carpigiani machine or something like that.
13:58
Is it pretty much the same process?
14:00
Yeah. I mean, we're going to use
14:01
Carpigiani in in very similar type machines.
14:04
I think it can be similar, but it can be very different.
14:08
For example, like, you know, there are some items that we
14:10
were thinking of is like, you know, tofu ice cream or more soy
14:13
based ice cream. Like you're using like toasted
14:15
soy flour, like Kinoko, like things like that.
14:17
Then we're going to explore more to do like how can we make some
14:20
of the frozen desserts with like, you know, soy milk as a
14:22
base, Not because we want to make it into vegan or vegetarian
14:27
or these kind of things, but it's really trying to highlight
14:30
the product. And I think, you know, if you
14:31
use that, you know, like if you use a lot of soy milk and soy
14:34
based product, then it's like it just doesn't really make a lot
14:36
of sense to put, you know, a lot of dairy heavy creams and things
14:39
like that because it's just going to mask a lot of flavors.
14:41
So. That's fascinating.
14:44
Like you're going to send me down a whole rabbit hole of
14:47
understanding ice cream differently.
14:49
I'm, I'm like, I don't have an ice cream machine at home, but I
14:51
might buy one just to start. I mean, you said some really
14:55
interesting ideas flavor wise. I want to go back to your
15:00
previous job, your previous job you were culinary director for,
15:07
you said 2-3 to four Michelin star restaurants depending on
15:10
depending on when. For people that don't know, what
15:14
would that role look like? How are you splitting up your
15:17
time between multiple restaurants, and then what would
15:21
your involvement be in the day-to-day?
15:23
Yeah. So I joined them, you know, I
15:27
think it was a tail end of the the COVID.
15:29
So that's a unique period. It's not like, you know, any
15:31
other period where things are more stagnant and you know, like
15:34
pretty expected growth of the business.
15:37
So like my role changed, you know, like month.
15:41
I wouldn't say month over month, but maybe every quarterly maybe.
15:44
So I think the first thing I did when I joined was to reopen one
15:47
of the two star Michelin restaurant that was shut down
15:50
after COVID. So that means, you know,
15:52
starting from scratch again, there's no construction permit
15:55
that I want to go through. But again, it's about the
15:56
hiring, training, the menu, the costing, the whole 9 yard.
15:59
Did you have the same chef to cuisine?
16:01
Different. Different, yeah.
16:03
So that was one of the things I took on.
16:07
And after that was we had a catering program and private
16:11
dining program or I guess private dinner.
16:15
That was one of those where during COVID time we were doing
16:17
a lot of packaged food and things like that, just like a
16:19
lot of restaurants done. And we've, we were doing a lot
16:22
of smaller size in home dinners, like 10 people, 12 people, 15,
16:27
maybe 20 people, people's houses.
16:29
And we'll just take, you know, plates, music, the servers,
16:33
cooks, everything. And we really try to recreate
16:35
the Michelin type of experience in people's residence.
16:36
And how difficult is that? It can be difficult because
16:40
sometimes you will like to host 20 people at, at, you know, like
16:43
a very small townhouse and it's like, there's no way.
16:47
So I was. Going to do it.
16:48
What was the best way to be efficient?
16:50
If someone is calling you up and saying, hey, come in and you
16:52
arrive and then you realize, oh, that's the kitchen setup.
16:55
Did you have mitigation plans behind the scenes to make sure,
16:59
like, hey, we don't know what we're getting into, so we need
17:01
to make sure we can execute this food very smoothly?
17:03
Right. I mean, menus and prep and I
17:06
mean, just like any find any restaurant, I mean, a lot of
17:09
preps are done ahead of time. It's a lot of it has to do with
17:11
like, you know, reheating and, you know, cooking and protein
17:14
and that type of stuff is the only thing that it takes place
17:16
during the service, right? I mean, if you're at Michelin
17:18
restaurant, you're not going to make puree on menu.
17:20
It's like already made. So it's that type of thing.
17:22
But I mean, there are definitely some interesting ones that we
17:24
went through and, you know, salespeople do their due
17:27
diligence, of course, and figure out, you know, what the kitchen
17:29
would look like and all this that.
17:30
And we definitely, I've definitely personally been to
17:33
times where I I show up with the site and there's no kitchen.
17:36
Yeah, yeah. I mean, had that happened?
17:38
So you're just cooking on like a click burner or something like
17:40
that, reheating everything sous video.
17:43
No, I mean, sometimes yes, but also like it are times where
17:47
like, I mean, I've been in the industry, especially in the
17:49
Washington DC area for a pretty long time.
17:53
I'm not going to say how long because that's going to give
17:54
away how old I am, but so I know a lot of people in almost every
17:59
block of the the streets or in the neighborhood.
18:01
So that being said, like, you know, if really things happen,
18:04
then it's like I can just call them up and say, Hey, chefs,
18:07
like I'm on this, this place, this is what's going on.
18:09
Can I come over to, you know, borrow a couple things and they
18:12
be sure? Washington, DC is such an
18:14
interesting food scene, too. I was really happy when the
18:18
Michelin Guide went there. And, you know, you guys got your
18:20
stars and in a little. Washington has three now, right?
18:24
Yeah, they got their three. But I mean, there's so much
18:28
history there. And you drive around, it's so
18:29
beautiful. And I was there in Washington.
18:33
DCI want to say like in 2000, eight.
18:35
I went, I went for something and I I remember at Eric Repair used
18:39
to have a restaurant there. What are the Ritz Carlton's?
18:41
I can't remember what it was called.
18:43
It's the one on the Westro something.
18:45
Yeah, it was, it was really good.
18:47
I remember just and and that was my first time being exposed to
18:50
the Washington food scene, the DC food scene.
18:54
I was blown away at how diverse it was, how good it was.
18:57
I mean, I think Roberto Donna was probably the king at that
18:59
time. Yeah, interesting.
19:01
It's interesting to see how far it's come.
19:03
And it was really nice to see Michelin there was really nice
19:05
to see. You know, your former team
19:08
received the accolades that it got.
19:10
And whenever people would go there, I would always send them
19:12
to your restaurants. I'd say go eat there, go check
19:14
it out, see what they're doing. What would your day-to-day look
19:18
like once, you know, let's say post COVID and things are back
19:22
open and you're overseeing multiple restaurants because how
19:25
long ago was it that that you left?
19:29
In the last year, so in the last year.
19:30
A month ago, so things are already back to normal.
19:33
Our restaurants are busy. How would you split your time up
19:36
between multiple restaurants? So toward the end, I was
19:42
primarily responsible for the expansion of the the catering
19:45
and private event. So I actually spend almost 100%
19:51
of the time actually overseeing that end and restaurant size.
19:54
There's also like, you know, corporate level chefs who, who
19:57
are able to you provide support and, and things like that to
20:00
their end. So I was basically primarily
20:03
like I, I described earlier when he was doing, you know, 1020
20:07
people dinners, like by the time I exited, we're doing, you know,
20:10
200 people, 100 people. And one of the largest one we've
20:14
done was 800 people at the off site venue at Michelin caliber.
20:17
And so it really takes a lot of logistics and planning and and
20:21
training, expansion, production, I mean you name it.
20:25
What? What is the hierarchy of chefs
20:28
in your position look like within the brand?
20:31
So, so meaning you you're overseeing catering and then I'm
20:35
assuming there's individual chefs and cuisines of the
20:37
restaurants. And then is there like other
20:38
people? I guess what I'm trying to ask
20:42
is how many people have their fingers in every individual
20:45
concept and at what point does it funnel up to there's one
20:49
decision? Maker yeah.
20:50
So I mean, we, the other company did have a pretty large
20:54
management group that managed to over.
20:56
So that means directors, senior managers and, and in senior
21:00
culinary managers. And those, those people
21:03
basically were overseeing all shops at all, all time
21:06
basically. And then each shop, of course,
21:09
I've had chef chefs, cuisine sous chef, junior sous chef,
21:12
CDPS and so on. And ultimate decision goes over
21:16
to the senior leadership, to directors and senior management
21:19
and also to the ownership. When you're trying to develop
21:22
like kitchen culture for these places, like what were some of
21:25
the things that you would look for in in, in in potential new
21:29
cooks? Like, hey, I want to bring on
21:31
the team, but here's some things that I'm looking for that it's
21:33
going to make you a good fit. I'm going to hear some non
21:35
negotiable things that if you're working in my kitchen, these are
21:39
some skills or some behaviors that you need to have before you
21:41
step foot in the kitchen. Yep.
21:43
I think it may be similar with everybody else's kitchen, but I
21:45
think it's it's the the mutual respect either toward other
21:51
people or product. I think that's a big thing.
21:53
I mean, you know, there are a lot of things we can teach right
21:56
in the mean how to make puree, how to see your me this, that.
21:58
But I think at that level, it's like it's really difficult to
22:01
change people's personality or how they treat other people,
22:04
things like that, whether you know, like some people are best
22:06
aggressive, some people or, or just have a lot of, you know,
22:10
baggages or whatever. And, and so I try to look for
22:12
people who are passionate and people who are respectful and
22:16
people who are honest. And you know, I think those are
22:19
the qualities I always look for. Did you notice, especially when
22:24
people were starting to recover from the pandemic, was it more
22:27
difficult to recruit staff? The reason I ask because, you
22:31
know, having restaurants with Michelin stars, I would imagine
22:34
that you're attracting more people that want to work for
22:36
you. But at the same time, everyone
22:38
was struggling right after COVID trying to get staff.
22:41
Was that something that you all struggled with at that time?
22:44
Or was it? No, everyone just wanted to come
22:46
back and, you know, yeah, you had your you had your choice of
22:49
the best cooks in the city. Like for example, like I think
22:52
our flagship or other restaurant side where there were accolades,
22:56
I think it was a little bit easier.
22:58
But as I was managing and catering and, and priority
23:01
events side, I think that was a little harder just because when
23:05
people hear catering, people didn't have certain things in,
23:08
in their mind. Things are like, you know, like
23:10
slamming the hot box and you know, just like whether they'll
23:12
be cooked or not send it out. And, and that's like the what
23:14
people think of catering as. And we're doing like like 3-4,
23:19
maybe 10 times the quality. But again, like, you know,
23:22
general consensus of what catering is was that.
23:25
So it was really hard actually for us to really hire people and
23:28
and get them interested. So how do you get them
23:32
interested in catering? So what what when they're
23:35
already in? I'm sure they saw the level of
23:37
execution that you're doing, right?
23:38
But to get them in, how did you sell them on?
23:40
Like hey This is why you want to work and catering it with me.
23:42
Yeah, I think there are a couple ways.
23:44
I think catering. One, it takes a lot of logistics
23:47
and, and, and planning. Yeah.
23:49
So if there were chefs like who really want to open their own
23:52
business, I mean, it's not, it's no different, right.
23:54
I mean, if at the restaurant, yes, the prep has to get done,
23:57
go through tasting and then start firing during service.
24:00
But catering is like if you're in the prep is not done.
24:04
Like you were way behind. I mean, now it's like, you know,
24:06
you still have to pack the food. You have to, you know, like load
24:09
the van, you need to go to the site, set up the kitchen because
24:11
there's no kitchen often time. So there's a lot more.
24:14
Stack down to everything, right? That's right.
24:16
And it's like there's how many times like, you know, we're
24:18
missing something and have to go get somewhere like, you know,
24:21
because like, you're not cooking on your own kitchen.
24:23
So I mean, it forces you to be more organized and forces you to
24:26
be more disciplined. So I think it really like, I
24:29
think those are some of the skill set really translate.
24:31
I keep telling everybody, it's like, you know, if you could do
24:34
the catering thing, that's like the restaurant thing is a lot
24:36
easier in comparison. But there's so much you can
24:38
learn and not what at least is, is catering is there's unlimited
24:42
guest count we can do because the restaurant if you 120 C if
24:44
you're turning twice out of 240. But catering, I mean, if you go
24:48
to a large venues, you can do 1000 people, 2000 people.
24:51
I don't know what the largest catering operation has ever
24:53
done, but it's it's far more than any fine dining or any even
24:57
casual restaurant can possibly do because it's like there's not
25:00
that many seats. Right, right.
25:02
And it's not all carts. So meaning that everyone's
25:06
getting the same thing. So you don't have to figure out
25:08
like we're going to play the guessing game of who's going to
25:10
get what. No, everyone gets the same
25:11
thing. It's catering.
25:12
They paid for the, the beef dinner, whatever.
25:15
So food cost is a little easier to manage.
25:18
Prep is a lot easier to manage in a, in a sense, like it's not
25:20
easy. It's, it's, it's a little bit
25:22
more thoughtful. I think I agree with you.
25:25
I, I think people that have worked in catering and then
25:29
transition to a la carte, like I think they understand how to
25:31
scale and organize a little bit better and they plan just a
25:34
little bit better. I, I think it's good for chefs
25:36
to work in both worlds. There's definitely something to
25:40
learn from both. Completely agree.
25:41
Yeah. Did you have catering experience
25:44
before you went into that as AI mean, I mean, I'm sure when
25:48
you're in the business, everyone has a little bit of catering
25:50
experience, but like in leadership as a caterer, as a,
25:53
as a chef caterer. No, no.
25:56
So a lot of it you were learning as you want.
25:57
Yeah, but I think it's just like, you know, if you're a line
26:01
cook, I mean if you have 5 dishes then and each component
26:03
has like, you know, five different musing plus like you
26:05
got to get those things ready, right?
26:07
You scale up. It's nothing different.
26:08
You know, the numbers are larger.
26:10
You're doing, you know, like 200 portion of, you know, beef or
26:13
fish of you know, whatever. And it's a, you know, 40 course
26:17
of, you know, soup instead of, you know, like 2-2 quarts of
26:20
puree. I mean things are volumes are
26:23
higher but it the principles are the same.
26:25
Yeah. Did you have like a, like a
26:27
methodology of, of, of importance or hierarchy of
26:30
importance? Like we always do meats first.
26:32
We always do, you know if, if, if we get in a time crunch,
26:37
don't worry so much about the, the, the plushas and the
26:39
garnishes. Like we need to make sure we
26:41
have protein before we have plushas.
26:42
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely like the things that takes a
26:45
long time, whether it's like, you know, like Souvene beef that
26:47
it takes two days, like things like that, you know, we have to
26:49
get done for sure. But I also start looking at not
26:53
just day-to-day, but week, week over week, or, you know, two
26:56
weeks time frame. And especially during the busy
26:58
time, because you know, we, we batch it so that we're not doing
27:01
like, you know, each party, you know, each event at a time, but
27:04
we just like organize it. And what are the, what are the,
27:07
you know, menu spreads going to look like and then and really
27:10
like prep the whole thing and then redistribute?
27:13
If you if, if someone was coming to you right now and saying,
27:15
hey, I'm going to be a catering chef, like what's the one piece
27:18
of advice that you'd say, hey, before you take that job, make
27:20
sure you know how to do this? I'll say probably like, like
27:26
stay flexible and be adoptable. I think the hardest thing
27:29
because every venue is different and I think you do get used to
27:33
different venues where, oh, OK, if that place and you know, you
27:36
have XY and Z or you know, if if it's that building, it's going
27:39
to take X amount of time to load up and load out.
27:42
So you do get a sense of that. But you know, if you're talking
27:45
like residential homes and stuff, they come to so many
27:47
different variations and, and you really have to be like, you
27:51
know, like adaptable. And when you know, things go
27:55
unexpectedly, like, you know, you have a, you can at least
27:58
stay calm and then find a solution instead of freaking
28:00
out. Because as the head of the
28:03
department, if you stop freaking out, anybody else is like, you
28:05
know, right. It just like become the whole
28:08
operation, become a chaos. So I think it's like staying
28:10
calm under pressure and in solution oriented mindset.
28:16
I think those are like non negotiable.
28:18
Is that something that you always had as a chef or do?
28:20
Is that something that you had to learn?
28:22
Staying calm under pressure? So I think I now I can say
28:28
fortunately, but you know, when I was going through the chef
28:31
work or other, you know, cook periods, I think I thought it
28:33
was challenging. But there are definitely a lot
28:35
of times where the situation was tougher for me, like when I,
28:40
when I first just job, they're definitely seven months.
28:42
I didn't have a lot of staff And I, I really like, you know, they
28:46
worked in Thai Russia on my own with maybe one or two dishwasher
28:49
who'd been there for, you know, 20 years, I'd say.
28:52
And but door has to open, prep has to get done.
28:56
And it's like at that point, like just myself freaking out,
28:58
it's not going to do anything. So, and I think I had that type
29:02
of experiences where there's no option, you know, whether you
29:06
can or cannot do just you have to do it.
29:08
So it's not about can we do it, it's more about how we do it.
29:12
Yeah, it's it's so funny. You've been in this situation
29:15
many times. I've been in this situation many
29:16
times as a chef is like you look at the you look at the amount of
29:20
work that you have or you look at the rail of tickets that you
29:22
have and you maybe you're dealing with the staff or the
29:25
amount of resource that you have.
29:26
You think there's no way we're going to get through this.
29:28
It's impossible. And you always get through it.
29:31
Like it always seems to get done.
29:33
Everyone always seems to get fed.
29:34
Of course there's exceptions to the rule of chaotic services and
29:37
people walk out, but for for the most part, it always seems to
29:41
get done. One of the things I used to do
29:43
when I was a chef is I'd write the prep list always more
29:46
difficult than the level of the cook could probably finish
29:50
because I knew like, you're going to get it done, whether
29:52
it's 8 hours or 10 hours or 15 hours, you're going to get it
29:55
done. So if I give you more, you're
29:56
still going to get it done because people figure out a way
29:59
they, they learn how to work efficiently or they, they put a
30:01
little extra in their step. Anyway, that's a tangent.
30:07
I know something that we've talked about before is chefs
30:11
making sure that they're making good financial decisions,
30:14
especially starting that early in in their career.
30:16
And it's something that in in my career as a chef, I was always
30:20
fascinated by understanding how the financial world works.
30:25
And I've made a lot of mistakes. I've made a lot of good
30:28
decisions. But I think at a certain point,
30:33
and especially the earlier in your careers as a chef or a
30:36
cook, you need to start thinking about your financial future.
30:39
And I know we've talked about this offline, but what are what
30:43
are some of the things that you think people should be looking
30:45
at and what are some of the best practices that that you had as a
30:48
chef to make sure that you're setting yourself up financially?
30:52
You know, I think it's just like any, any, any jobs or I guess
30:56
the personal highest one-on-one, it's like, you know, you spend
30:58
less that you make, you know, that's definitely the basics.
31:01
I I think that's definitely the first because a lot of people
31:03
does tend to spend more than what they can or you know, what
31:08
I can afford or what you can afford is it means different to
31:11
the different people. But I think it's like really
31:14
like, you know, checks and balances like it what comes in.
31:16
And I guess some people say like, you know, that 33 shoe box
31:20
method, you know, like the money comes in, money goes out,
31:23
whatever left is, is yours to keep right.
31:25
So I think it's like, how can you expand that last shoe box?
31:28
I think is is is the is the idea?
31:31
If you were, if you were giving people like some practical tips
31:36
when they're making their purchasing decisions or if they
31:38
were looking at, you know, benefits and things like that
31:43
when they go into new jobs, what are some things that you were
31:45
looking for like financial incentives when you were taking
31:49
a job? Like what were some of the non
31:50
negotiables that you would look for?
31:52
Yeah, it's funny. I was pretty focused in and I am
31:56
focused in a lot of finance and and economic side of the cooking
32:01
and all this. But I think when I was younger,
32:04
I actually didn't pay that much attention.
32:06
And I think the biggest thing for me was actually the
32:08
opposite, where things that I couldn't define with the other,
32:10
with the only thing that I really care, the experience, the
32:13
what I could learn from this place and, and how can I get
32:16
better. I think that was the only thing
32:17
I focus tonight, quite frankly. Like nowadays, I see more and
32:20
more people who's worried about or the decision space on how
32:25
much I can make per year. But I think when I was coming
32:27
up, I think it was more about, you know, the craftsmanship, the
32:29
learning of the trade. And I think that was actually
32:32
what I focused on the most. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
32:36
I think every, I mean, I've taken jobs as a, I've taken a
32:40
pay cut to go because like that's a better job.
32:42
So even if I'm making less money, I'm still going to take
32:44
it. But at a certain point the
32:48
outside world kicks in. It's like you have bills, you
32:50
have responsibilities and you got to make good decisions.
32:53
What are some of the practices that you put in place,
32:55
especially being a chef? Because a lot of times when
32:58
you're when you're coming up, you're not making that much
33:00
money until you start to reach a certain level of chef.
33:03
We start to make a little bit more money.
33:05
But were there any strategies that you put in place to set
33:07
yourself up financially for the future?
33:09
Yeah, I think anytime I start making just like extra money,
33:12
yeah, I think one it's like again, you know, save those
33:15
things and and and do one of the following one is other, you
33:20
know, no property retirement account and really start
33:22
investing. Yeah, I think that'll set you up
33:24
in the long run. Another thing I also dated the
33:27
chef in that, you know, a lot of other financial people wouldn't
33:30
do is, is really acquiring unique assets that has potential
33:35
future value like such as like certain whiskeys, certain books,
33:41
certain knives in these things that I knew that you know, the
33:44
cost and, and what I was buying in.
33:46
And then you know, what would the price of that be 10 years
33:49
from now and can. You give me some examples.
33:52
Yeah, I think there's like a certain blue seal knife from
33:54
Japan that are, you know, like made by very famous producers
33:58
that doesn't have a lot of in circulation.
34:00
And again, supply demand if if the if the supply is is very
34:03
string and then you know, like demand grows.
34:06
And then if the price is not higher in the same thing,
34:08
there's a limited bottles or, or, or the whiskey or wines or
34:12
the same thing. There's like, you know, certain
34:14
limited edition cookbooks. I knew certain like these famous
34:16
chefs who have like, you know, very limited prints cookbooks.
34:19
I was the first one to buy because because I mean, supplies
34:23
are very limited if the 2000 copies get printed and that's
34:25
the end of it. And then some of the books that
34:27
used to be $50, now like three, $4000.
34:29
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of those.
34:32
I have like a Strong's Cookbook. It's like 1000 bucks.
34:35
Yeah. I was like, shit, someone told
34:37
me that they're like, you have, you know how much that book is
34:39
worth? I was like, I don't know, I
34:40
bought it for 50 bucks. I was like, no, you look on
34:42
Amazon, It's like, holy shit. Or one of one of my other my
34:48
favorite books that I have at home is the the Alain Ducasse,
34:52
the big thick thing, grand Lib de cuisine, which is like I, I
34:57
remember I bought it like 15 years ago for like 250 bucks.
35:00
I don't know how much it is now, but you know, but you're right,
35:04
a lot of these cookbooks, I have so many.
35:07
I should probably do more research on like what some of
35:09
these are worth. But people don't know that
35:11
they're sitting on a gold miner. They're going into Half Price
35:13
books and like, oh, that's. Yeah.
35:15
Totally, Yeah. So it's interesting that you
35:19
mentioned knives. So I'm opinionated about knives.
35:23
A lot of chefs are opinionated about knives.
35:25
I personally think like when you're first starting out to
35:28
cook, don't spend a lot of money on knives until you until you
35:30
know what you're doing. Because I don't think you're, if
35:33
you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a really expensive
35:35
Japanese knife, but you don't have the skills, you might break
35:37
it, you might lose it, someone might steal it, you don't know
35:39
how to care for it. I would say don't invest in
35:41
really expensive knives until you have a firm grasp on
35:44
understanding how to use knives. I don't know if you share that
35:49
same philosophy, but what is your philosophy when it comes to
35:53
that when it comes to knife purchases?
35:55
And then my second thing is you mentioned investing in good
35:57
quality knives. What are some things that you
36:02
would look out for to make sure that it is a good quality knives
36:05
and where what where do you go to get good quality knives?
36:08
Yeah, OK. Let me let me fully answer this
36:13
question. So yeah, I do agree with you.
36:15
I've I've seen so many chefs who are, you know, second, third
36:19
year cooking and get it and these razor sharp, like, you
36:22
know, like blue sweeper or, or whatever and, and, you know,
36:29
next thing, you know, like in a pinned avocado and and cracked a
36:32
knife. And that's like, I've seen that
36:33
so many times and it just like it's crazy.
36:36
So it's like, it's definitely like, you know, get your skills
36:38
up first and then really, you know, dabble into it.
36:43
But but I think there are two different ways I approach it
36:45
also. It's one it's like something
36:47
that you use and something that you just collect.
36:48
And there are a lot of knives that I have that I don't use,
36:51
but I think those are two different bucket and two
36:53
different categories. So I think if you're just going
36:54
to collect it just because you like it and I'm just going to
36:58
look at it and then I think you can buy whatever you want.
36:59
But I think if you got to use it, definitely like, yeah, like
37:03
you definitely you want to know like, you know, where your
37:04
skills at. But where do I buy it?
37:07
That's a great question. I mean, I think I feel like
37:09
there are a lot of online retailers and, and I get a lot
37:12
of ads myself from, you know, people in California or Korean
37:16
New York or, you know, whoever. But I think there are a lot of
37:19
amazing retailers in the US, But I think I tend to buy when I
37:23
every other year that I used to go back to Japan is is the only
37:26
time I usually buy those things. One of my friends just I think
37:30
I, I think I told you this, one of my friends, Gabriel Alice, he
37:32
got this beautiful knife from Japan when Noma was doing the
37:38
pop up there. The chef to cuisine at Noma or
37:41
the the chef at Noma got him one and send it to him.
37:44
And it's just, I mean, it's it's a beautiful knife.
37:47
It looks like a like a Hatori Hanzo sword for like it's it's
37:52
really nice. Do you paint is?
37:56
That I do, I yeah, I do. I do charcoal and used to do oil
38:00
a little bit. But yeah, also photography of
38:04
the big one too. Yeah.
38:05
OK. So when you talk about like
38:10
investing in good assets, I, I, I like investing in things like
38:13
that. Also, I, I have a lot of art in
38:15
my house. Actually, one of my friends, his
38:18
name is Alex Gonzalez. He's been on this podcast.
38:20
He is an artist. And I have several of his works
38:25
in my office. I have something from Jacques
38:27
Pepin, too. Yeah.
38:29
Yeah. And then he has, Alex has
38:33
several of his paintings hanging up in Alinea.
38:36
I think he's going to go up in Dave Barron's new restaurant as
38:39
well. But anyway, you also paint and
38:42
you do photography, right? So what in what inspired you to
38:47
paint, and how much does that crossover into the culinary arts
38:50
with you? Yeah, I think.
38:52
Maybe a better question is not what inspired you to paint
38:54
because maybe you don't even remember that, but but where do
38:57
you get inspiration from now when you are painting?
38:59
Yeah. I think that's a really hard
39:03
question. I think I just always I love
39:06
working with hands, whether it's cooking or paintings or anything
39:09
like creating something, right, whether it's physical.
39:11
It used to be and nowadays more digital and things like that.
39:14
But I think it's really about the the shapes, the color of the
39:18
textures, the whole in our yard. I think, I think inspiration you
39:21
really come from anywhere. Like, you know, where I'm taking
39:23
a walk outside with my wife and and daughter and just walking
39:27
and that sometimes does it. Sometimes we go to, we often
39:29
visit art museums and things like that and, and, and a lot of
39:33
that is very inspiring and thought provoking and, and one
39:36
of those things really get me going.
39:38
How much of what you are as an artist reflects in in who you
39:43
are as a chef, and how do they cross?
39:48
I think a lot. I think, I think when I do cook,
39:52
I mean, of course cooking is first and foremost like he has
39:54
to taste good, but also it's it's beyond that.
39:57
We talked about it during the ice cream thing.
39:58
I think way he looks is is also. Just as important, not more,
40:02
because before people eat anything, they're going to look
40:04
at it first. Sure, because most people don't,
40:06
you know, have AI. I've seen those like, you know,
40:08
blindfolded restaurant. You just eat, you know, food.
40:10
They don't see what it looks like.
40:12
But for the most part, people's going to see with their eyes
40:14
1st. And I think it's incredibly
40:16
important what it looks like. And for that reason, I think I
40:19
do spend quite a amount of time like, you know, how do I want to
40:22
present this dish? And so like, whether it's the
40:24
color thing, it's like, you know, like that's why I've done
40:27
all very monochromatic themes where it's like everything's
40:29
black, everything's white, everything's the green, because
40:31
I think sometimes that's very visually stunning.
40:33
But also like, you know, the colors, like whether it's
40:35
contrast complementary. And I think I take all these
40:37
things pretty seriously and what plays it go on and it is a
40:40
complementary or not. So it's like, I think it's I
40:43
think it goes beyond. Sometimes it's like, you know,
40:44
it's official on three or five ounce.
40:46
I think it's take it one step farther and and we look at it
40:49
and say, what is the best way for you to like?
40:52
For me, they just say it plays, it's a canvas straight.
40:54
So picking the right canvas and canvas comes in a different in
40:57
formats, but really picking those things first, then what if
41:00
that once that's figured out, then it's like, how do you
41:02
present this thing so that it can look its best?
41:05
So I think I think there's a lot of huge crossover between either
41:08
the the median and photography or oil painting or, you know,
41:12
pencil, charcoal, watercolor, I think you name it.
41:14
I think there's a lot of similarities.
41:18
When you're designing new dishes or menus and, and let's just say
41:23
a specific dish that you that you want to create, what comes
41:26
first the visual when in the creative process?
41:29
I mean, do you, do you come up with a visual idea and then work
41:33
towards the flavors or do you come up with something that you
41:35
want to eat and then work towards the visual?
41:37
Yeah, I think I think the product comes first.
41:42
And so seasonal engraved is also what we talked about earlier.
41:45
So that comes first. And then how does that inspire
41:48
the rest? Like for example, going back to
41:51
the ice cream, Japanese white ice cream.
41:53
So if I keep putting so many different colors and this that
41:57
into it, like, you know, of course I can make it into this
42:00
like someday that has 14 different colors.
42:02
But sometimes it takes away from the focus.
42:05
And then my thing is like at that point, like, OK, what is
42:07
the focus here? And the focus is the white
42:08
strawberry. So let's create all white dish
42:11
and really highlights the, you know, the white element of the
42:15
of the ingredients. So in that sense, I think it's
42:17
ingredients what drives me. And then the second thing is
42:20
it's like, OK, how do I want to look?
42:23
How do I want the dish to look like and then start the process
42:25
that way. But I have had a case where it's
42:27
like, you know, OK, like in the in the summer day, it was right
42:30
after I went to Okinawa, OK, like that some of the beach,
42:33
beautiful beaches are really stunning.
42:35
So how do I encapsulate that into a dish?
42:37
So like that way, I think it was like the process.
42:40
Why I think the ingredient didn't come first.
42:43
It was like the, the themes and all that things came first and
42:46
then and, and, and then you're like, you know what the dish
42:48
will look like. So I think it can take a
42:50
different entry point, you know, sometimes comes from the
42:53
ingredients, sometimes come from the certain season, the holidays
42:56
or whatever. I think.
42:57
I think it all count berries. Interesting.
43:02
Do you appreciate that style of food more when you go out and
43:05
eat? Do you like, are you actively
43:07
seeking food and restaurants that are that are doing
43:11
something artistic? Or is that what you like to
43:14
create, but not necessarily what you like to eat?
43:19
Some probably both and I do appreciate people put a lot of
43:22
thoughts into the food, whether I mean and the food it's also
43:26
back out. I think the restaurant itself,
43:27
you know, like, because it's like food is, it's only one
43:30
aspect of dining. And there's, once you get to the
43:33
door, what does the outside look like?
43:35
What is the door knob? You know, is it brass or is it,
43:37
what is it metal? Is it, you know, and then as you
43:39
go in, there's the music, there's like the whole floor,
43:42
there's the table in the whole 9 yard.
43:45
And as you, after you seated, what is the glassware made of?
43:47
What you know, what the flat wares and, and, and linens?
43:51
Like is it a cotton or is it, or a napkin?
43:53
I mean, and I think all these things play a role.
43:56
So I think I do tend to go into all that.
44:00
So that's actually like way beyond the dish.
44:01
But it's like, I think I like the whole cohesive idea behind
44:05
what this restaurant is and what this artist is trying to create
44:09
because it's it is actually sometimes go way beyond the food
44:12
itself. But I mean, I, I enjoy both.
44:14
I mean, some simple food that's on the plate and in like really
44:17
nice grilled fish with like, you know, seasonal vegetables.
44:19
I think that's I think that sounds really delicious.
44:22
But again, if you're going to find any more certain themes in
44:25
restaurants, I mean, it does make sense of there'll be more
44:28
thoughts than just, you know, fish, potato, asparagus, done.
44:33
You bring up an interesting point, I think.
44:37
I think it's, I don't want to say it's getting lost, but I, I
44:40
don't see as much attention to it anymore in a lot of
44:43
restaurants, especially restaurants that are positioning
44:45
themselves to be at the upper echelon.
44:49
Is that I, I personally, I love fine dining.
44:52
I love going into a restaurant and I love everything that's
44:56
luxury. Meaning I want to touch the
44:58
crystal stemware. I want the linen to be
45:01
beautiful. If it's a place mat, I want it
45:03
to be a certain type of leather, right?
45:05
I want the restaurant to smell a certain way.
45:07
I want there to be a certain posh when I'm eating there.
45:09
I want the chairs to be comfortable.
45:10
I want everything to be thoughtful.
45:13
And I've, I've noticed to me, and this is just my personal
45:17
opinion, if I'm going to judge a restaurant and I don't judge
45:20
restaurants usually, but like, if I'm going to go in and judge
45:23
a restaurant because they're asking me to like, is this an
45:25
excellent restaurant? I often say it's, it's not just
45:28
the food, it's about everything, every single detail, everything
45:31
has to be important. But I do feel a lot of
45:34
restaurants now, I don't know if it's just trendy or if chefs
45:39
just don't want to think about this.
45:40
And it's, it's about the food on the plate and that's all that
45:42
matters. And I think that's great because
45:44
food on the plate, it's delicious and you're putting all
45:46
your focus on in on that, and it makes delicious food.
45:50
But at the same time, I think sometimes we're neglecting the
45:53
dining aspect and creating that sense of not just hospitality,
46:00
but luxurious hospitality. I think it's something that,
46:03
especially in the USI think that's really missing in a lot
46:06
of restaurants that are trying to position themselves as luxury
46:09
restaurants as they're missing a little bit of the luxury park.
46:12
Yeah. You noticed that?
46:14
Yeah, I think so. And and also like you said, it's
46:16
like, I also don't go into a restaurant judging whether
46:19
they're doing a good job or bad job.
46:20
It's not for me to decide, but I think it's really about branding
46:23
and identity of the business. And in the chef and, and
46:25
restaurant tour, it's like, so it's like, if I'm going to new
46:28
bonsai restaurant, I don't expect like, you know, like,
46:31
like, like Genori plate wares and Christophe and, and, and
46:34
napkins to be made of, you know, like Thomas Mason Cotton.
46:37
It's like it didn't, didn't need any of that at all.
46:39
But I think it's like, you know, within its own caliber, its own
46:42
category, like, you know, what is it they're trying to
46:44
accomplish? And it is OK to do a burger shop
46:47
and, and not have fancy and it doesn't need it.
46:50
So it's like you're really the defining, what is the business,
46:52
what is the food and what is the culture?
46:54
And, and it really like solidifying the brand and
46:57
identity and really like, you know, like like double down
47:00
those things and see like how good you can get, you know.
47:04
I just feel like sometimes as, as chefs, we started frowning on
47:07
nice things at a certain point. It was not, it was not good to
47:11
have nice things. Like the food could be good, but
47:13
everything else didn't have to be good.
47:15
And I miss nice things. Like, I like, I'm not going to
47:17
lie. I like nice things.
47:18
Yeah. I like to, you know, I like, I
47:21
like fancy things. As I tell people, I'm a simple
47:23
man. I have simple tastes of, you
47:25
know, caviar, good cigars and good whiskey, Right.
47:29
Yeah. Like I'm a simple person.
47:31
Like make sure that's good and everything else is good.
47:34
I know you're like me, like you, like a lot of you study
47:37
languages. How many languages do you speak?
47:42
3 is definitely fluent, so Japanese, English, Spanish and
47:45
and I used to be much better Italian but then Spanish took
47:48
that over and I've been doing Russian for about 6 months or
47:53
more than that actually. I used to.
47:56
I used to work with a bunch of Russians, so I like I, I have
47:58
some basic Russian like Agdala, he goes who got a show.
48:01
I don't even know what these words mean.
48:03
But we would do catering plate UPS and then the they would
48:06
always say Squika, which I think means how many, how many.
48:09
So I don't, I don't remember a lot of my Russian, but I used to
48:13
work in, I used to work in Italian kitchens as well, where
48:15
my chef was Italian. I'd like to say I'm fluent in
48:19
very fluent in English. I'm conversational Spanish and
48:24
I'm tourist Italian. Yeah, You know, like I could get
48:27
by as a tourist. But you know what the bathroom
48:29
is? Yeah, yeah.
48:30
Yeah, yeah. But I, I like Italian right now
48:34
I'm learning Italian, One of the things that I'm doing, and I'm
48:37
curious what you do to learn because obviously I use Duolingo
48:40
like a lot of people I'm on like I think I have like a 1500 day
48:44
streak on Duolingo. Yeah, on OCD like that.
48:48
But what I found more practical now because Duolingo is great,
48:51
but it doesn't really teach me because I'll watch an Italian
48:55
shows, like they don't talk like the Duolingo.
48:56
Or when I speak with someone that's from Italy, they don't
48:59
talk like Duolingo. But I'll use ChatGPT now voice
49:03
activated, and I'll speak to it in Italian.
49:05
And sometimes I'll ask it like change your dialect up to sound
49:08
like you're from Naples and it changes it up and it'll correct
49:12
me. So we'll just keep talking and
49:13
I'll say, OK, now correct me at the end, like talk to me in
49:15
Italian and then correct me based on what I said.
49:17
So I think that's an interesting new way for people that are into
49:21
learning languages. But how do you go about
49:22
learning? Yeah, I think English and first
49:26
and foremost, that was my second language because my Japanese
49:28
wasn't my first. And that one, like I have no
49:30
option because my dad decided to, you know, because of her job
49:32
moved to US. And you know, of course, in
49:35
Japan, like you'd start taking holes.
49:37
Reef. 15 when I was here and that's like maybe taking two
49:41
years Spanish in high school here.
49:43
Like, you know, that's nowhere near, you know, you're ready,
49:46
right. So but then I was pulled out the
49:49
middle school like, you know, three years before graduation.
49:52
Basically, I didn't graduate from middle school.
49:54
So like I had no option about to graduate from high school.
49:56
Otherwise, like, you know, there's no way I'm going to go
49:58
and get into college that if I just got, you know, only have
50:00
elementary school paper. So I think that really like
50:04
forced me to learn and I was in the immersive environment where
50:07
everybody else spoke English. So like, you know, I decided to
50:11
hang out with local guys and and local gals instead of hanging
50:15
out with Japanese friends. So I think that really got me
50:18
going, something I didn't have an option.
50:19
So that definitely I learned a lot.
50:22
How do you approach learning languages now?
50:24
Now I think now because I've done that first, so now I've
50:29
actually completed, you know, second language, the process a
50:33
lot get easier because then it's like, you know, grammatically
50:35
like, you know, especially like some of the language you're
50:37
talking here, like you know, Italian, Spanish, those things
50:40
are very similar to English. So I mean, for me is my process
50:43
is like, what is the grammatical structure look like?
50:47
And what are the cogniz, which is like the the words that are
50:49
very similar to the language you already know.
50:52
And those things unlock like thousands, if not 10s of
50:55
thousands vocab in it with a snuffle finger.
50:57
And after that is like really just repetition and, and just
51:00
like cutting onions or, you know, toning potatoes, like, you
51:04
know, like you can do it one time.
51:07
So you're going to make a ton of mistakes and you're going to cut
51:09
fingers a couple times. And I got embarrassed so many
51:12
times by hearing wrong things. And that's really how I you
51:15
know, how I got fluent in a lot of languages.
51:17
So what? Are you going to learn after
51:19
Russian? I don't know, I mean, I honestly
51:23
like I've had a lot of time to learn that like I used to,
51:27
because again, you know, managing restaurants, you know,
51:29
starting your own business. I mean that tend to take over
51:32
and also now I've I've daughter and and you know, like time
51:37
allocation a little different than it used to be, but if I
51:42
were to, I mean, if I were able to do something else next and
51:45
maybe like Arabic. Arabic.
51:47
Yeah. Something like that, yeah.
51:48
Fun, yeah. Or.
51:49
Or Korean Chinese, like something like that could be
51:51
fun. Yeah, yeah.
51:53
Did it help you at all in the kitchen?
51:55
I mean, I, I know like for me, Spanish is tremendous in the
51:58
kitchen. Knowing Spanish.
51:59
Yeah. But for for you, did you notice
52:03
a significant advantage as a chef speaking multiple languages
52:05
100%? Yeah, yeah.
52:07
So because I mean, I'm the same way.
52:09
I think, you know, growing up especially, you know, start
52:12
cooking in USA, lot of chefs cooked, sous chefs I had were
52:18
from Central America or South America, I think like that.
52:21
And and I quickly figured out it was a lot easy for me to learn
52:23
Spanish than to teach all cooks, all chefs English or Japanese or
52:28
whatever. So at that point I was like, you
52:30
know what, let me just do this and and did that.
52:32
And once I saw it speaking Spanish, I mean communication a
52:36
lot easier when you speak in a language they understand.
52:39
Yeah. You know, so I think it cut down
52:42
a lot of times and it really I can communicate quickly.
52:46
So it really save a lot of time. So it's like in any end of
52:49
second guess what? Did she understand this or not?
52:51
Because I've been in the site where you know the forming guy
52:54
coming over here and then I don't really understand anything
52:57
and keep shaking head until and he asks the questions.
52:59
I didn't understand it. Just speak it out.
53:00
Just. Talk louder.
53:02
Right. Exactly, exactly.
53:03
So I mean, I think they helped a lot.
53:05
And I think also got to really understand the culture and when
53:08
you speak their language and, you know, I found a meal
53:10
together and things like that. Yeah.
53:12
And at that point that you become part of them.
53:13
So it's like, you know, you, you know, you're just like not like
53:17
treated as like, you know, someone that's outsider, but
53:20
you'd be also become insider even though you don't look like
53:22
and stuff like that. So I thought, I thought that was
53:24
very helpful. If you know, normally when I
53:26
wrap up the show, I always ask people like if you had a Mount
53:30
Rushmore of chefs, 4 chefs out there that you'd like to give
53:35
recognition or really influenced you as a chef, who are they?
53:43
Maybe you didn't work for them just.
53:44
Yeah, there's, yeah, there's so many.
53:47
You had to pick 4. That right, that's like, that's
53:49
like that's a really hard one because again, there's so many
53:53
great chefs out there and, and for me to pick fours is yeah,
53:59
yeah, I don't know who who that will be.
54:01
There you could say like early in your career, like your your
54:04
first ten years now and then kind of in the middle.
54:07
Yeah, I mean, it might sound cliche, but I think I think when
54:10
I was starting on, I mean, someone like obviously like
54:15
Escoffier, obviously, you know, like someone who really
54:17
perfected the French cooking and then really organize it because
54:20
a lot of cooking in other countries where, you know, like
54:23
Mexico, let's just say, like, you know, people's been cooking
54:25
centuries, but it's like it's not like as organizer as it
54:29
like, you know, written now and really passed down.
54:32
So it's like, you know, the family knew it and then they
54:34
pass on, pass on where like he really like, you know, recorded
54:37
the whole thing and they really creative system.
54:39
So I can get passed on. So it's like, you know, if the
54:42
100 franchise make a Hollande, it's going to look pretty
54:44
similar, you know, and I think that's that's pretty amazing
54:47
about that of that era. And and of course, I think
54:51
another ones will be like, you know, someone like Cron Audrea
54:54
or Granaka. I think I think his cookbook
54:56
really changed what, you know, beautiful food look like.
55:00
And I think traditionally what I thought this dish look cool.
55:03
And then, you know, their cookbooks came out and then
55:06
really like you were relationizing the way we cook
55:08
and when we, you know, look at food.
55:10
And I think maybe now it's like people are getting away from the
55:13
whole sciency aspect of it. But I think it's like, you know,
55:16
cooking of the entertainment, you know, all those things to
55:18
live on. And I think, you know, I think
55:20
they drastically change the way we eat and the way we approach
55:23
food, but I don't know who else. What about today?
55:29
Who you looking at today? Today, I don't know, it's it's
55:36
really hard to say. If I do more and more of the the
55:41
the the ice cream thing, it's like.
55:43
Is there someone in the ice cream world that's.
55:46
I don't know. I don't know any anyone, any
55:48
famous ice cream chef, to be honest.
55:50
Yeah. That's fine.
55:52
Yeah. If you had a chef's PSA out
55:54
there, like if you were going to give advice to a young cook or
55:56
new cook, say, yeah, this is a chef's PSA, do this or don't do
56:00
this in the kitchen, what would it be?
56:02
Yeah, I think you'd do this is as I said earlier, I think it's
56:05
really like it's it's about I think I think it's the same as
56:10
the cooking, all the topics we talked about.
56:12
I think whether it's like, you know, investment or whether it's
56:15
the the language things or or art or anything.
56:18
I think look at it in the long term.
56:20
I mean, you stop looking at everything in like such a short
56:22
term thing where it's like, you know, like quick thing, whether
56:24
it's like, I do think, you know, I do this and I need to get this
56:28
back or I do this today. I need to make this much, you
56:32
know, in two weeks from now. I think it's like looking things
56:34
in much more longer time frame. They really started making, you
56:39
know, little doing little things every day even though you don't
56:42
see the result. I mean, if you want to fix back,
56:43
you know you're not going to get it tomorrow, right?
56:45
The same kind of thing. I think if you really want to
56:47
accomplish something big, I think you really have the long
56:49
term goal. I don't think it needs to be
56:50
like 155 C Italian fine dining restaurant with tasting menu in
56:55
5 cooks. I don't need, I don't think you
56:56
need to go that granular, but I think you should have at least
57:00
like where you want to be in in broader terms, you know, and
57:03
what do you want to accomplish? I mean, I think that's exactly
57:06
what I do is is myself too, is the, you know, I was happy with,
57:10
you know, doing what I was doing, managing.
57:12
You mentioned restaurant and all the fine dining restaurant.
57:15
But I think for me to decide to open the ice cream shop and and
57:19
pursue my own venture, that's something I really wanted to do
57:22
and and do it because I want to do it, not because I have to do
57:25
it. But I mean, it does take, you
57:27
know, long term thinking and then really like, you know,
57:30
doing what you can today so that tomorrow gets a little easier or
57:33
better. And I think continuously doing
57:35
those things, I think it's something that you can do, even
57:38
though the young, young chefs and and flip side is obviously
57:41
like, you know, just looking at everything of the other
57:43
transaction. And, you know, for me to do
57:46
this, you have to give me this kind of, you know.
57:48
Yeah, well, Chef, it was great talking to you.
57:51
Where can people find you? Where can people follow you?
57:53
Yeah, I think people can find me.
57:55
I mean, of course in DC, but outside of that, I mean, we're
57:59
pretty active on the Instagram. So my personal Instagram is is
58:03
Teeny Shkoa 1202. But snow cream, ice cream is,
58:08
you know, where we can find our progress and things like that.
58:11
Well, good luck with everything. I can't wait to try the ice
58:13
cream. I'll see you soon as DC.
58:14
Thank you. All right, chef.
58:15
Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed the
58:16
show. You know what to do.
58:18
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58:29
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58:31
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